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Since this is a general article about Aisha and her life, the excessive criticisms in the Age section are disproportionately more verbose than the "Aisha" section in the dedicated Criticism of Muhammad article that deals with the critiques.
The first two paragraphs are to the purpose however, the three below paragraphs are digressive and should be either removed or condensed. I propose retaining the section's factual content about Aisha's age at marriage and consummation.
As per WP:CRITS and WP:NPOV, I'm removing the removing the part that deals with severe censure; accusations of pedophilia which is already articulated verbatim in the proper Criticism article and is already linked in the section.
As for the rest of the content in the three paragraphs, If given green light, I'm willing to streamlining them for brevity. StarkReport ( talk) 12:30, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
In the late-twentieth century and early twenty-first century, opponents of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia, as well as explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies.(statement sourced to Ali 2014 p. 187, 190-191) I don't see how this one sentence all of a sudden makes things verbose, and it does seem a notable fact to mention. What this needs is more context, not removal (see also WP:NOTCENSORED). ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 13:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
... is a significant and pronounced censure, but it's not a censure at all, it reports on the censure. It was well cited; when multiple high-level sources like Kecia Ali discuss, report and comment on the accusations of pedophilia, it certainly is harmful for/to Wikipedia to omit any mention of that. TryKid dubious – discuss 15:40, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
a description of isolated events, quotes, criticisms, or news reports related to one subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic
StarkReport, you're already aware of WP:WEIGHT and WP:PROPORTION. Kecia Ali's chapter on Aisha in her biography of Muhammad, exactly the sort of source needed for a section on Aisha's marriage with him, spends multiple pages, a good chunk of the chapter, dealing with the accusations of pedophilia etc. You cannot seriously be saying it's undue or disproportionate knowing the coverage allotted to the issue, or that it shouldn't be covered here "as it is precisely covered in the relevant article"—that's not how Wikipedia coverage works, one thing can be relevant to multiple pages and subjects, and you already know about summary style, etc. TryKid dubious – discuss 18:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
"one thing can be relevant to multiple pages"
In most cases separate sections devoted to criticism, controversies, or the like should be avoided in an article because these sections call undue attention to negative viewpoints.
Refusing to allow edits unless approved by one or a few editors acting as owners, several editors agreeing on the refusal, regardless of the quality of the offered edits
Then move the " Age at marriage and consummation" section to that article altogether and simply state here what the consensus of reliable sources is, which isWe already have Separate article devoted to controversies; in this case, it's "Criticism of Muhammad."
"Aisha was married to Muhammad when she was 6-7 years old, and she was 9 years old at the consummation."If you insist on the inclusion of the WP:FRINGE theory of the Muslim apologists that says she was in early adolescence or older during the marriage (which is rejected not only by top historians but also by Muslim scholars), then the only way is to also include all the aspects surrounding it, such as the reason why it arose (i.e., controversy, criticism), all the Islamic sources that actually contradict what they say, and so on. — Kaalakaa (talk) 18:14, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
There already is; a 12 lines of material in " Criticism of Muhammad," that's states that"move the "Age at marriage and consummation" section to that article altogether and simply state here what the consensus of reliable sources is, which is "Aisha was married to Muhammad when she was 6-7 years old, and she was 9 years old at the consummation."
"Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad"Take a look.
include all the aspects surrounding it, such as the reason why it arose (i.e., controversy, criticism), all the Islamic sources that actually contradict what they say
Then remove the " Age at marriage and consummation" section from this article altogether because, as you have pointed out, it's already covered in the other article. It's disproportionate anyway, isn't it? It's in the larger section about Aisha's early life, and there's already a consensus among reliable sources saying, "There already is; a 12 lines of material in " Criticism of Muhammad,"
Aisha was married to Muhammad when she was 6-7 years old, and she was 9 years old at the consummation." Here on Wikipedia, we are merely reporting what reliable secondary sources say, so we should simply write it as such. Why, just for the sake of presenting a WP:FRINGE theory of the apologists that Muhammad married Aisha in her "early adolescence" or older, do we have to spend five paragraphs describing the reason why the theory was created (i.e., controversy and criticism), listing a number of primary sources, and even giving a WP:FALSEBALANCE to a WP:FRINGE primary source at the end of the second paragraph, etc.? — Kaalakaa (talk) 20:11, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
"opponents of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia, as well as explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies"should be removed as it going the coatrack way and does not uphold WP:PROPORTION. StarkReport ( talk) 12:52, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
Regarding the edit that removed "In the late-twentieth century and early twenty-first century, opponents of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of paedophilia, as well as explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies."
The deleted sentence had a citation to a very reliable source - but it would have been better if the sentence had had several citations to very reliable sources by different authors for both the "paedophilia" statement and the "higher prevalence" statement.
The issue of having sex with a nine-year old is a difficult issue, and should not be brushed under the carpet ( WP:NOTCENSORED applies). On a personal level, I would prefer that the word "paedophilia" was not used. Paedophilia is a sexual disorder in which a person experiences sexual feelings towards pre-pubescent children. But it is frequently misused in mainstream English-language media (for example regarding Miss Maxwell and her friends).-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:48, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
removing or pruning the paragraph is not warranted per my take, Apaugasma, I totally undertand your viewpoint. But, just imagine for a second, there are two distinct articles. One is a general article about a historical person that delves into intricacies of her life her life details in her time. The second, however, contains historical major and weighty critique of another historical figure linked to the aforementioned individual.
References
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plz remove drawing.its disrespectful. 2400:ADC5:48A:3400:64BE:3BD:A644:69DB ( talk) 16:24, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive—even exceedingly so. Attempting to ensure that articles and images will be acceptable to all readers, or will adhere to general social or religious norms, is incompatible with the purposes of an encyclopaedia.So, your request is inconsistent with policy, and it would be wrong to do as you ask.-- Toddy1 (talk) 17:21, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
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remove the picture it is disrespect 2400:ADC5:48A:3400:58CB:DECF:3379:9C2A ( talk) 09:33, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
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Hello, Just a note of concern regarding many early Islamic historical figures, Shia views may be biased/prejudiced towards certain people, so it is important to state the STRENGTH of a Hadith (by overall scholar consensus) - defined as historical reliability of source narrator/continuation, which is crucial for any spoken historical evidence - when quoted. I have seen this issue across many pages. It may be time consuming to acertain, but it adds an essential factual layer to history that is 1400 years ago. 37.60.109.186 ( talk) 20:58, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
I am having some difficulty finding where in the provided source that this statement is based on.
some Muslims chose to align themselves with the projects of modernization and re-calculated her age—using deft stratagems of omission and commission—to fix it at early adolescence
Can someone quote part of the source that states something like it? — Kaalakaa (talk) 02:35, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
@ TrangaBellam: I am confused by your deleting the word "to" in this edit. I have applied strikethrough to the word:
Since the late-twentieth century, critics have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia andtoexplain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies.
With the word "to", the sentence says the critics used (a) to explain (b). Without the word, the sentence says the critics did both (a) and (b), but (a) and (b) are otherwise not connected. If the critics are not using Aisha's age to explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage over a thousand years after her death, then why mention the higher prevalence at all in an article about Aisha? Please either restore "to" or fix the problem in a different way.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:06, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
TrangaBellam, your restoration of the article has reintroduced the "Islamophobe" label. While Ali does call Spencer Islamophobe, and talks about "mainly online anti-Muslim critics'" highlighting the issue during her discussion, I don't that is enough to declare in Wikivoice that Islamophobes accuse Muhammad of pedophilia. The previous version of the last sentence seems better. regards, TryKid dubious – discuss 18:02, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
Since the late-twentieth century, critics of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia, and to explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies.? ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 12:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Many argue that Aisha was betrothed at the age of seven, and then the marriage was consummated when she turned nine. Since this was the custom at the time, the accusations of children abuse and pedophilia are frivolous and anachronistic.
.Since the late twentieth century, critics have used Aisha's age to level criticisms against Muhammad and to explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies
@ Jpgordon: Most of the " Age at marriage and consummation" section seems to have been introduced as a compromise for the inclusion of some fringe theories that say Aisha was not 6–7 at marriage and 9 at consummation. There appears to be a consensus among reliable, independent (secular) scholars that the marriage and consummation occurred when she was 6–7 and 9, respectively. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] Since we're here on Wikipedia to simply report what they (reliable, independent secondary sources) say, I've been thinking, why don't we just replace the whole "Age at marriage and consummation" section with something along the lines of
Aisha was married to Muhammad when she was 6–7 years old. The marriage was consummated later, when she was 9 years old and he was 53 years old.
and continue it with how her life went on according to reliable sources? As for the "Age at marriage and consummation" section, if it still needs to be included, then we can probably move it to the bottom of the article below the "Death" section and rename it to "Controversies regarding her age in modern times". — Kaalakaa (talk) 03:51, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Oh yeah, as for the part of the source that discusses "pedophilia" and "diagnostic category", it appears to be this (please note that it was not me who added it to the article):
Page 191:
Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha has become, for contemporary polemicists, evidence of pedophilia not as a medical diagnosis but as an archaic and evil force.
and as for the "higher prevalence", it seems to be this:
Citing deplorable statistics about child marriage, Spencer writes: “This is the price that women have paid throughout Islamic history, and continue to pay, for Muhammad’s status as ‘an excellent example of conduct’ (Qur’an 33:21).”
— Kaalakaa (talk) 04:36, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
"higher quality text", and it belongs in a criticism article. Both me and jpgordon have expressed against it.
"People deserve to have access to detailed and high-quality information on this topic", I wholeheartedly agree; however, they can easily accomplish this just by clicking the link located at the top of the section. StarkReport ( talk) 02:01, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Given all the fuss about it I think it's quite impossible to argue that it is not notable or due. Just look at the archives of this talk page. Just look at what you get when you type in Aisha Muhammad on Google. People are looking for this info, worry about this info, fight over this info.
"however, elsewhere Tabari appears to suggest that she was born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage."
"some Muslims chose to align themselves with the projects of modernization and re-calculated her age—using deft stratagems of omission and commission—to fix it at early adolescence"
"however, elsewhere Tabari appears to suggest that she was born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage"precisely constitutes a part of that. StarkReport ( talk) 16:09, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
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We do report on notable fringe theories in due measure, like that one sentence about the revisionist 'recalculations' and their rejection by conservative Muslims.
Also, that al-Tabari contains a report which suggests a different age is not a fringe theory,
Getting it right by not writing about it all (apart from one sentence) is a tempting, but ultimately wrong solution.
Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha has become, for contemporary polemicists, evidence of pedophilia not as a medical diagnosis but as an archaic and evil force.
"Redirecting people to another article that contains many things besides the issue of Aisha's age at marriage (and so should also give only a summary of that) is not helping them access high-quality information about that topic. Aisha's age at marriage is clearly primarily about Aisha, and the most detailed section on it should therefore be in Aisha"
"The paragraphs don't really fit into the criticism of Muhammad article because, well, they aren't about criticism of Muhammad"even though I disagreed but nonetheless considering that the age issue is more fleshed out here than in the criticism article where it is summarized, its only logical to remove the poorly located link. So that's done. StarkReport ( talk) 02:40, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
"replaced "Islamophobes" with "critics" and restored "pedophelia" because it is an established non-controversial fact that critics have accused Muhammad of pedophelia."Or did you change your mind? — Kaalakaa (talk) 23:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
References
Where did all the citations from the first paragraph vanish? I am going through the history. TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
@ Toddy1, you propose that we need to "discuss" the relative merits between citing Spellberg (1994) and a bevy of primary sources sourced from random internet websites? TrangaBellam ( talk) 20:29, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
"Aisha was 6 years old when she was married to Muhammad, and the consummation took place later, after the Hijra, when she was 9 years old; Muhammad was 53 years old at the time"to be repeated and redundant as the sebsequent section touches upoun this info extensively. So I tried to reintegrate other Kaalakaa changes while removing this repeated age bit.
the relative merits between citing Spellberg (1994) and a bevy of primary sources sourced from random internet websites- it explained why it was best to revert the other editor's version - and it was easy to verify the reason for objecting, and therefore to agree with it. If you had put that reason in either (a) your edit summary, or (b) on the talk page, I would not have reverted you.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:15, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
a bevy of primary sources". That was the old "
pre-Stark" version that @ DenverCoder19 restored [13]. My revision was this, every bit of material was backed up by reliable, independent secondary sources. — Kaalakaa (talk) 11:01, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
The idea of an "age of consent", condemnation of pedophilia, and the harm an adult-child sexual relationship does to the child, is not a purely modern construct made up in the twentieth century.
While there are many different cultures, the idea that pedophilia is harmful is well attested throughout history and cultures. The age of consent is almost always after has actually gone through puberty (usually 12-17), that is, is no longer considered a child.
I worry that in some sections of this article, it is suggested that pedophilia is merely a circumstantial belief, that happens to be true in modern times, specifically in the West. Especially troubling is the link between "colonial powers" and "age of consent" laws, that seem to imply anti-pedophilia laws were forced on countries as colonialism.
Wikipedia is not censored, but there is zero tolerance for apologies of pedophilia, that is, any content that suggests adult-child relationships are not harmful. We need to be very careful in sections of this article that seem to suggest condemnation of pedophilia is a circumstantial, modern-specific phenomenon and pedophilia can be acceptable as "cultural relativism". DenverCoder19 ( talk) 16:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
TrangaBellam ( talk) 19:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC)In recent decades, it is his [Muhammad's] marriage to Aisha that has provoked polemic. Traditional sources say that Aisha was six years old when Muhammad married her and nine when the marriage was consummated. As Ali notes, Aisha’s young age allowed early Muslim writers to insist not only on her sexual purity (she was the only one of Muhammad’s brides who had not previously been married) but also and more importantly on her religious purity (since she would have been born into a Muslim family). European writers before the mid-twentieth century found nothing shocking in her age, as arranged marriages and child brides were common in pre-modern societies, European and non-European. But with late-twentieth- and twenty-first-century concerns about child abuse, pedophilia, and arranged marriages, a number of polemicists assailed Muhammad for marrying a child, provoking fresh rounds of explanation and contextualization on the part of Muslim and many non-Muslim authors.
This thoughtful and stimulating book takes us well beyond the tired dichotomies between Orientalists and Subalterns, colonialists and colonized, Islam and the West.
This edit by DenverCoder19 has got nothing to do with the above, and I have reverted it. The edit was prudish and censored cited statements about their relationship, and replaced them with a near-meaningless statement. She was a small child when she married, and the deleted statements brought out the horror of such a situation by talking about the way she and her friends played with their dolls. The article is about Aisha, who was the youngest of the Prophet's wives. It ought to inform readers about their relationship, not sweep it under the rug because in a modern context it would be considered appalling.
It is also important that people in the past did not consider it appalling (though I have not reverted edits about that).-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:14, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
References
TrangaBellam, Toddy1, In the "Relationship with Muhammad" section, a detail that caught my eye: "Aisha also spoke her mind, even at the risk of angering Muhammad. On one such instance, Muhammad's "announcement of a revelation permitting him to enter into marriages disallowed to other men drew from her [Aisha] the retort, 'It seems to me your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire!" Considering that the Leila Ahmed source that is appended ahead is giving some sort of a impression of equality: "Complementarily, Aisha must have felt reasonably equal to and unawed by this prophet of God, for his announcement of a revelation permitting him to enter into marriages disallowed other men---------" whereas, the content "spoke her mind, even at the risk of angering Muhammad" gives a complete different impression. To maintain consistency and avoid misinterpretations or controversies stemming from a singular anecdote, I think the line is better omitted from the content. StarkReport ( talk) 11:15, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Complementarily, Aisha must have felt reasonably equal to and unawed by this prophet of God, for his announcement of a revelation permitting him to enter into marriages disallowed other men drew from her the retort, 'It seems to me your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire!'. [16] I do not know what the rest of pages 51 and 52 say.
"Aisha likely perceived a sense of equality toward Muhammad as his announcement of a revelation permitting him to enter into marriages forbidden to other men prompted her response, indicating that it appeared as if his Lord hurried to fulfill his desires.", If the copyright thingy applies.
"Aisha must have felt reasonably equal to and unawed by this prophet of God, for his announcement of a revelation permitting him to enter into marriages disallowed other men drew from her the retort, 'It seems to me your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire!'"
I've returned to a history-focused narrative of the marriage that centered on the historical figures and their reasoning, rather than divine revelation.
If you want to advocate for the new version, please do so here.
Do NOT re-add the new version without obtaining consensus. DenverCoder19 ( talk) 18:28, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
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Per Jesus and Taiwan, I've moved the Arabic, romanization, and pronunciation to the explanatory note. DenverCoder19 ( talk) 22:42, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
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The source to Hazrat Ayesha and Hazrat Hafsa poisoning the holy prophet is not credible as the book is an anonymous compilation and the claim is not supported anywhere else , there are great doubts surrounding this claim and is rejected by 99.9% of scholars, please remove this weak allegation source 39.48.18.64 ( talk) 23:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
I have moved the statement the IP editor is talking about to this talk page for discussion. It is as follows:
Ayyashi has narrated through authentic chains of narrators from Imam Ja’far Sadiq that, "Ayesha and Hafasa had poisoned the Prophet with that poison, so it is possible that both poisons caused his death." [1]
References
Hayat Al-Qulub is a late 17th Century book by a Shia cleric from Persia. The version by Ansariyan Publications was published in three volumes, and the citation did not say which volume chapter 65 was in. Its English-language title is variously called "Stories of the Prophets" or "Life of Hearts". The reliability of this book has been questioned by al-islam.org, which describes parts of the book as "very hagiographical"; al-islam.org also says that parts of the book contradict fundamental Islamic beliefs, and says that it would be foolish to take some parts of the book literally because they appear to be legends or myths. [17] -- Toddy1 (talk) 04:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Some Shii polemicists went as far as countering the Sunni designations of her as the 'vindicated' with a particularly incendiary remark, something that was taken up in the early twenty-first century by a controversial Kuwaiti Shii author based in the UK, Yasir al-Habib, who rehashed a polemical debate in which some Shii authors had claimed that Aisha and Hafsa had poisoned the Prophet. [1]
— Kaalakaa (talk) 08:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Hafsa is particularly reviled by the Shi'a, because along with the Prophet's wife 'Aisha she is believed to have caused him various sorts of tribulations. She is sometimes even accused of conspiring to poison him. [2]
So it makes sense to do a search on Google and Amazon to find out what they are.
References
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{{subst:trim|1=
}Dear Wikipedia Editors,
I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to request an edit to the Wikipedia page regarding Prophet Muhammad's marriage to Aisha. Currently, the page mentions that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) married Aisha when she was nine years old. However, this information requires clarification and contextualization to provide a more accurate representation of historical accounts and Islamic teachings.
In Islam, the age of consent for marriage is a subject of interpretation and historical context. While it is true that some sources indicate Aisha's age at the time of her marriage to Prophet Muhammad as nine years old, it is important to consider additional factors and perspectives.
Firstly, scholars and historians have debated the accuracy of Aisha's reported age, with some suggesting that she may have been older at the time of her marriage. The reliability of historical records from over a thousand years ago can be complex, and interpretations vary.
Secondly, Islamic teachings emphasize the importance of understanding historical events within their cultural and societal contexts. In seventh-century Arabia, customs regarding marriage and age differed significantly from modern norms. Marriage at a young age was not uncommon during that period, and it is crucial to recognize this when discussing historical marriages, including that of Prophet Muhammad and Aisha.
Thirdly, Islam places great emphasis on justice, compassion, and the well-being of individuals. While certain practices of the past may not align with contemporary values, it is essential to approach historical accounts with a nuanced understanding rather than imposing present-day judgments.
Therefore, I propose the following edit to the Wikipedia page:
Provide a balanced discussion on the age of Aisha at the time of her marriage to Prophet Muhammad, acknowledging varying interpretations and historical debates. Offer contextual information about marriage customs and societal norms in seventh-century Arabia. Emphasize the importance of understanding historical events within their cultural contexts and avoiding anachronistic judgments. Provide references to scholarly sources and reputable Islamic sources to support the information presented. By making these edits, Wikipedia can offer a more comprehensive and nuanced portrayal of Prophet Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, reflecting the complexities of history and Islamic teachings.
Thank you for considering this request. Should you require further clarification or assistance, please feel free to reach out to me.} 103.166.244.135 ( talk) 22:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes below this line, preferably in a "change X to Y" format. Other editors need to know what to add or remove.What you have provided is a discussion about what might be desirable. It is not an edit request.-- Toddy1 (talk) 22:56, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
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Aisha was approximately 13-17 years old, not 7, when she married the Prophet. No valid accounts say she was younger than 13. She was also pre-engaged to someone else before she and her parents cancelled it and switched it to the Prophet, and still after marriage she did not live with him until 2 years later. First, the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child. Secondly, the age of Hazrat Aisha can be easily calculated from the age of her elder sister Hazrat Asma who was 10 years older than Hazrat Aisha. Waliuddin Muhammad Abdullah Al-Khateeb al Amri Tabrizi the famous author of Mishkath, in his biography of narrators (Asma ur Rijal), writes that Hazrat Asma died in the year 73 Hijri at the age of 100, ten or twelve days after the martyrdom of her son Abdullah Ibn Zubair. It is common knowledge that the Islamic calendar starts from the year of the Hijrah or the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina. Therefore, by deducting 73, the year of Hazrat Asma’s death, from 100, her age at that time, we can easily conclude that she was 27 years old during Hijra.This puts the age of Hazrat Aisha at 17 during the same period. As all biographers of the Prophet agree that he consummated his marriage with Hazrat Aisha in the year 2 Hijri it can be conclusively said that she was 19 at that time and not nine as alleged in the aforementioned hadiths. 96.255.139.57 ( talk) 02:58, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
The following is from Hayat Al-Qulub, a Shia source:
Ayyashi has narrated through authentic chains of narrators from Imam Ja’far Sadiq that, "Ayesha and Hafasa had poisoned the Prophet with that poison, so it is possible that both poisons caused his death." [1]
As mentioned earlier in this talk page, some people want this content not to be in the article as 'it is a Shia source and hence not reliable'.
I don't understand, why should Sunni Muslims get preferential treatment compared to Shia Muslims? That's a sub-sect issue, not an issue for neutral knowledge. My point is let both Sunni and Shia versions stay side by side and let the readers decide based on the references.
Is there any WIkiPedia policy that dictates why the said content should not be in this article? Additionally, is there any globally accepted academic research which states that all Shia sources are wrong? Does WikiPedia prefers Sunni sources over Shia sources? Kawrno Baba ( talk) 08:47, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
References
Ayesha and Hafasa had poisoned the Prophet with that poison, so it is possible that both poisons caused his death.
@Kaalakaa You stated that the sources I referenced are not independent : https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Aisha&diff=prev&oldid=1217509852.
Can you state the reasons you believe that these are not independent sources ? Hakikatco ( talk) 05:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
An independent source is a source that has no vested interest in a given Wikipedia topic and therefore is commonly expected to cover the topic from a disinterested perspective. Independent sources have editorial independence (advertisers do not dictate content) and no conflicts of interest (there is no potential for personal, financial, or political gain to be made from the existence of the publication).
This Talk page needs a FaQ seeing as a bunch of questions are repeated. Babysharkboss2 was here!! Ex-Mørtis 13:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
From what I've noticed, some of the most common are:what other questions have been repeated?
References
@ Kaalakaa: OK, but what are the questions that are frequently asked? The points you make above relate to one question only, which could be phrased as "why does this article say Aisha married at age 6-7 and the marriage was consummated at age 9, when other sources prove she was older?" The points you make can be restated as answers to that question. Are there any other questions that are frequently asked? Or is it just about her age? ~ Anachronist ( talk) 18:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
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Hazrat Aisha age at the time of marriage with Prophet PBUH was 19 and when she moved in it was 21. Here is how.
There’s consensus that Aisha was 10 years younger than her elder sister Asma,whose age 28 at the time of the hijrah, or migration to Madina. It can be concluded Aisha was about 18 years old at migration. Hazrat Asma (elder Sister)got married at the age of 26 & Aysha was still at home age 16 (umarried). Aisha Nikkah was performed 3 years later with Prophet (PBUH)at age 19(Tass-Ashra)not just Tass(Ashra was either miss printed or maliciously removed to malign. Hazrat Aisha moved to live with Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)2 years after Nikkah at the age of 21. On her moving to the Prophet’s house,she was a young woman at 21. Hisham is single narrator of the hadees whose authenticity is challenged bcaz of (Tass-Ashra) Ashra missing to make it look like 9, it doesn’t correlate with the historical facts of the time.Aisha narrates that she was present on the battlefield at the Battle of Badar (Muslim).This leads one to conclude that Hazrat Aisha moved into the Prophet’s house in 1 A.H. But a nine-year-old could not have been taken on a rough and risky military mission. In 2 A.H, the Prophet refused to take boys of less than 15 years of age to the battle of Uhud. Would he have allowed a 10-year-old girl to accompany him? But Anas reported that he saw Aisha and Umme Sulaim carrying goatskins full of water and serving it to the soldiers (Bukhari). Umme Sulaim and Umme Ammara, the other women present at Uhud,were both strong, mature women whose duties were the lifting of the dead & injured,treating their wounds,carrying water in heavy goatskins, supplying ammunition and even taking up the sword.
Aisha used the kunniat,the title derived from the name of a child,of Umme Abdullah after her nephew and adopted son.If she was 6 when her nikah was performed,she would have been only eight years his senior,hardly making him eligible for adoption.A little girl couldn’t have given up on ever having her own child and used an adopted child’s name for her kunniat.
Aisha’s nephew Urwah once remarked that he wasn’t surprised about her amazing knowledge of Islamic law,poetry,history bcaz she was the wife of the Prophet & the daughter of Abu Bakr. If she was 9 when her father migrated and when did she learn poetry history from him? so the age was 21 not 5 or 6 or 9. Prophets own daughters were married at the age of either 21 or 23. 148.252.146.53 ( talk) 23:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
John Little the Oxford professor
The arguments brought forward here is used by a lot of modernist and liberal scholars
they should be noted to some extent.
In response, some Muslims chose to align themselves with the projects of modernization and re-calculated her age — using deft stratagems of omission and commission — to fix it at early adolescence— Kaalakaa (talk) 05:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
My belief is that when you both wrote John Little
you really meant "Joshua Little", who is an author at
Islamic Origins. Little says that he is a
research fellow at the
University of Groningen, and got a DPhil from
Oxford University.
[18]
Wikipedia's policy is that exceptional claims require exceptional sources. As far as I can tell Joshua Little has not converted his thesis into a published book - so it clearly does not count as an exceptional source (and indeed it might not even if it had been published as a book). If Little's work had been turned into a book, then secondary sources such as the New Lines Magazine article would help us assess it. -- Toddy1 (talk) 06:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
Sahih Bukhari is among the most adhered hadith collection in the Islamic world. It states that, her marriage was consummated at such age when she still played with dolls. [1] In the commentary of the Sahih Bukhari it is written that, "Playing with dolls is forbidden in Islam, but it was allowed for Aisha at that time, as she did not yet reach the age of puberty." [2]
Can this part be added in the article? Does this part violates any WikiPedia policy? Kawrno Baba ( talk) 07:45, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Narrated `Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 6130. In-book reference: Book 78, Hadith 157. USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 151.)Is this explained more fully in Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13? If it is, please can we have a translated quotation that is long enough for an educated person without specialised knowledge to understand that this is what is meant.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:13, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Previous version | Kawrno Baba's proposed new version |
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Islamic sources of the classical era list Aisha's age at the time of her marriage as six or seven and nine or ten at its consummation. In a hadith from Sahih al-Bukhari, Aisha recollects having been married at six years of age. [5] Ibn Sa'd's biography holds her age at the time of marriage as between six and seven, and gives her age at consummation to be nine while Ibn Hisham's biography of Muhammad suggests she may have been ten years old at consummation. [6] Al-Tabari notes Aisha to have stayed with her parents after the marriage and consummated the relationship at nine years of age since she was young and sexually immature at the time of marriage; however, elsewhere Tabari appears to suggest that she was born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage. [7] [8] | Islamic sources of the classical era list Aisha's age at the time of her marriage as six or seven and nine or ten at its consummation. In a hadith from Sahih al-Bukhari, Aisha recollects having been married at six years of age. [5] Ibn Sa'd's biography holds her age at the time of marriage as between six and seven, and gives her age at consummation to be nine while Ibn Hisham's biography of Muhammad suggests she may have been ten years old at consummation. [6] Sahih Bukhari states that her marriage was consummated at such age when she still played with dolls. [9] [a] In the commentary of the Sahih Bukhari it is written that, "Playing with dolls is forbidden in Islam, but it was allowed for Aisha at that time, as she did not yet reach the age of puberty." [19] Al-Tabari notes Aisha to have stayed with her parents after the marriage and consummated the relationship at nine years of age since she was young and sexually immature at the time of marriage; however, elsewhere Tabari appears to suggest that she was born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage. [7] [8] |
Note that Kawrno Baba's proposed new version has two undefined citation names in the bundled footnote: <ref name="Watt-encyc-online" /> and <ref name="Spellberg" />. I assume that this because some of the text was adapted from another Wikipedia article.
@
Kawrno Baba: that kind of bundling of references inside a footnote is not an acceptable style. It is better to have the citations in the text: Sahih Bukhari states that her marriage was consummated at such age when she still played with dolls.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16]
Also, if you copy from another Wikipedia page, please could you state this in the edit summary, and check that your edit includes definitions of the named citations you are moving. --
Toddy1
(talk)
08:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Sahih Bukhari states that her marriage was consummated at such age when she still played with dolls.[7][a]The "[a]" is the bundled footnote. If you look at the markup language in your edit, [19] there is a bit that starts
{{efn|
. That is the start of the bundled footnote. You can see what it looks like in the note section below.--
Toddy1
(talk)
09:27, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Kawrno Baba: My guess is that most of the new citations do not actually support the sentences they are cited for, but instead support the generally accepted position about Aisha's age on marriage. i.e. most of them are probably irrelevant to the sentences they are placed next to. -- Toddy1 (talk) 08:46, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
References
Watt-encyc-online
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Spellberg
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Evidence that the Prophet waited for Aisha to reach physical maturity before consummation comes from al-Ṭabarī, who says she was too young for intercourse at the time of the marriage contract;
{{
cite book}}
: URL–wikilink conflict (
help)
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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Since this is a general article about Aisha and her life, the excessive criticisms in the Age section are disproportionately more verbose than the "Aisha" section in the dedicated Criticism of Muhammad article that deals with the critiques.
The first two paragraphs are to the purpose however, the three below paragraphs are digressive and should be either removed or condensed. I propose retaining the section's factual content about Aisha's age at marriage and consummation.
As per WP:CRITS and WP:NPOV, I'm removing the removing the part that deals with severe censure; accusations of pedophilia which is already articulated verbatim in the proper Criticism article and is already linked in the section.
As for the rest of the content in the three paragraphs, If given green light, I'm willing to streamlining them for brevity. StarkReport ( talk) 12:30, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
In the late-twentieth century and early twenty-first century, opponents of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia, as well as explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies.(statement sourced to Ali 2014 p. 187, 190-191) I don't see how this one sentence all of a sudden makes things verbose, and it does seem a notable fact to mention. What this needs is more context, not removal (see also WP:NOTCENSORED). ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 13:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
... is a significant and pronounced censure, but it's not a censure at all, it reports on the censure. It was well cited; when multiple high-level sources like Kecia Ali discuss, report and comment on the accusations of pedophilia, it certainly is harmful for/to Wikipedia to omit any mention of that. TryKid dubious – discuss 15:40, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
a description of isolated events, quotes, criticisms, or news reports related to one subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic
StarkReport, you're already aware of WP:WEIGHT and WP:PROPORTION. Kecia Ali's chapter on Aisha in her biography of Muhammad, exactly the sort of source needed for a section on Aisha's marriage with him, spends multiple pages, a good chunk of the chapter, dealing with the accusations of pedophilia etc. You cannot seriously be saying it's undue or disproportionate knowing the coverage allotted to the issue, or that it shouldn't be covered here "as it is precisely covered in the relevant article"—that's not how Wikipedia coverage works, one thing can be relevant to multiple pages and subjects, and you already know about summary style, etc. TryKid dubious – discuss 18:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
"one thing can be relevant to multiple pages"
In most cases separate sections devoted to criticism, controversies, or the like should be avoided in an article because these sections call undue attention to negative viewpoints.
Refusing to allow edits unless approved by one or a few editors acting as owners, several editors agreeing on the refusal, regardless of the quality of the offered edits
Then move the " Age at marriage and consummation" section to that article altogether and simply state here what the consensus of reliable sources is, which isWe already have Separate article devoted to controversies; in this case, it's "Criticism of Muhammad."
"Aisha was married to Muhammad when she was 6-7 years old, and she was 9 years old at the consummation."If you insist on the inclusion of the WP:FRINGE theory of the Muslim apologists that says she was in early adolescence or older during the marriage (which is rejected not only by top historians but also by Muslim scholars), then the only way is to also include all the aspects surrounding it, such as the reason why it arose (i.e., controversy, criticism), all the Islamic sources that actually contradict what they say, and so on. — Kaalakaa (talk) 18:14, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
There already is; a 12 lines of material in " Criticism of Muhammad," that's states that"move the "Age at marriage and consummation" section to that article altogether and simply state here what the consensus of reliable sources is, which is "Aisha was married to Muhammad when she was 6-7 years old, and she was 9 years old at the consummation."
"Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad"Take a look.
include all the aspects surrounding it, such as the reason why it arose (i.e., controversy, criticism), all the Islamic sources that actually contradict what they say
Then remove the " Age at marriage and consummation" section from this article altogether because, as you have pointed out, it's already covered in the other article. It's disproportionate anyway, isn't it? It's in the larger section about Aisha's early life, and there's already a consensus among reliable sources saying, "There already is; a 12 lines of material in " Criticism of Muhammad,"
Aisha was married to Muhammad when she was 6-7 years old, and she was 9 years old at the consummation." Here on Wikipedia, we are merely reporting what reliable secondary sources say, so we should simply write it as such. Why, just for the sake of presenting a WP:FRINGE theory of the apologists that Muhammad married Aisha in her "early adolescence" or older, do we have to spend five paragraphs describing the reason why the theory was created (i.e., controversy and criticism), listing a number of primary sources, and even giving a WP:FALSEBALANCE to a WP:FRINGE primary source at the end of the second paragraph, etc.? — Kaalakaa (talk) 20:11, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
"opponents of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia, as well as explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies"should be removed as it going the coatrack way and does not uphold WP:PROPORTION. StarkReport ( talk) 12:52, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
Regarding the edit that removed "In the late-twentieth century and early twenty-first century, opponents of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of paedophilia, as well as explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies."
The deleted sentence had a citation to a very reliable source - but it would have been better if the sentence had had several citations to very reliable sources by different authors for both the "paedophilia" statement and the "higher prevalence" statement.
The issue of having sex with a nine-year old is a difficult issue, and should not be brushed under the carpet ( WP:NOTCENSORED applies). On a personal level, I would prefer that the word "paedophilia" was not used. Paedophilia is a sexual disorder in which a person experiences sexual feelings towards pre-pubescent children. But it is frequently misused in mainstream English-language media (for example regarding Miss Maxwell and her friends).-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:48, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
removing or pruning the paragraph is not warranted per my take, Apaugasma, I totally undertand your viewpoint. But, just imagine for a second, there are two distinct articles. One is a general article about a historical person that delves into intricacies of her life her life details in her time. The second, however, contains historical major and weighty critique of another historical figure linked to the aforementioned individual.
References
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plz remove drawing.its disrespectful. 2400:ADC5:48A:3400:64BE:3BD:A644:69DB ( talk) 16:24, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive—even exceedingly so. Attempting to ensure that articles and images will be acceptable to all readers, or will adhere to general social or religious norms, is incompatible with the purposes of an encyclopaedia.So, your request is inconsistent with policy, and it would be wrong to do as you ask.-- Toddy1 (talk) 17:21, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
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remove the picture it is disrespect 2400:ADC5:48A:3400:58CB:DECF:3379:9C2A ( talk) 09:33, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
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Hello, Just a note of concern regarding many early Islamic historical figures, Shia views may be biased/prejudiced towards certain people, so it is important to state the STRENGTH of a Hadith (by overall scholar consensus) - defined as historical reliability of source narrator/continuation, which is crucial for any spoken historical evidence - when quoted. I have seen this issue across many pages. It may be time consuming to acertain, but it adds an essential factual layer to history that is 1400 years ago. 37.60.109.186 ( talk) 20:58, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
I am having some difficulty finding where in the provided source that this statement is based on.
some Muslims chose to align themselves with the projects of modernization and re-calculated her age—using deft stratagems of omission and commission—to fix it at early adolescence
Can someone quote part of the source that states something like it? — Kaalakaa (talk) 02:35, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
@ TrangaBellam: I am confused by your deleting the word "to" in this edit. I have applied strikethrough to the word:
Since the late-twentieth century, critics have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia andtoexplain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies.
With the word "to", the sentence says the critics used (a) to explain (b). Without the word, the sentence says the critics did both (a) and (b), but (a) and (b) are otherwise not connected. If the critics are not using Aisha's age to explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage over a thousand years after her death, then why mention the higher prevalence at all in an article about Aisha? Please either restore "to" or fix the problem in a different way.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:06, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
TrangaBellam, your restoration of the article has reintroduced the "Islamophobe" label. While Ali does call Spencer Islamophobe, and talks about "mainly online anti-Muslim critics'" highlighting the issue during her discussion, I don't that is enough to declare in Wikivoice that Islamophobes accuse Muhammad of pedophilia. The previous version of the last sentence seems better. regards, TryKid dubious – discuss 18:02, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
Since the late-twentieth century, critics of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia, and to explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies.? ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 12:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Many argue that Aisha was betrothed at the age of seven, and then the marriage was consummated when she turned nine. Since this was the custom at the time, the accusations of children abuse and pedophilia are frivolous and anachronistic.
.Since the late twentieth century, critics have used Aisha's age to level criticisms against Muhammad and to explain a reported higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies
@ Jpgordon: Most of the " Age at marriage and consummation" section seems to have been introduced as a compromise for the inclusion of some fringe theories that say Aisha was not 6–7 at marriage and 9 at consummation. There appears to be a consensus among reliable, independent (secular) scholars that the marriage and consummation occurred when she was 6–7 and 9, respectively. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] Since we're here on Wikipedia to simply report what they (reliable, independent secondary sources) say, I've been thinking, why don't we just replace the whole "Age at marriage and consummation" section with something along the lines of
Aisha was married to Muhammad when she was 6–7 years old. The marriage was consummated later, when she was 9 years old and he was 53 years old.
and continue it with how her life went on according to reliable sources? As for the "Age at marriage and consummation" section, if it still needs to be included, then we can probably move it to the bottom of the article below the "Death" section and rename it to "Controversies regarding her age in modern times". — Kaalakaa (talk) 03:51, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Oh yeah, as for the part of the source that discusses "pedophilia" and "diagnostic category", it appears to be this (please note that it was not me who added it to the article):
Page 191:
Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha has become, for contemporary polemicists, evidence of pedophilia not as a medical diagnosis but as an archaic and evil force.
and as for the "higher prevalence", it seems to be this:
Citing deplorable statistics about child marriage, Spencer writes: “This is the price that women have paid throughout Islamic history, and continue to pay, for Muhammad’s status as ‘an excellent example of conduct’ (Qur’an 33:21).”
— Kaalakaa (talk) 04:36, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
"higher quality text", and it belongs in a criticism article. Both me and jpgordon have expressed against it.
"People deserve to have access to detailed and high-quality information on this topic", I wholeheartedly agree; however, they can easily accomplish this just by clicking the link located at the top of the section. StarkReport ( talk) 02:01, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Given all the fuss about it I think it's quite impossible to argue that it is not notable or due. Just look at the archives of this talk page. Just look at what you get when you type in Aisha Muhammad on Google. People are looking for this info, worry about this info, fight over this info.
"however, elsewhere Tabari appears to suggest that she was born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage."
"some Muslims chose to align themselves with the projects of modernization and re-calculated her age—using deft stratagems of omission and commission—to fix it at early adolescence"
"however, elsewhere Tabari appears to suggest that she was born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage"precisely constitutes a part of that. StarkReport ( talk) 16:09, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
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We do report on notable fringe theories in due measure, like that one sentence about the revisionist 'recalculations' and their rejection by conservative Muslims.
Also, that al-Tabari contains a report which suggests a different age is not a fringe theory,
Getting it right by not writing about it all (apart from one sentence) is a tempting, but ultimately wrong solution.
Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha has become, for contemporary polemicists, evidence of pedophilia not as a medical diagnosis but as an archaic and evil force.
"Redirecting people to another article that contains many things besides the issue of Aisha's age at marriage (and so should also give only a summary of that) is not helping them access high-quality information about that topic. Aisha's age at marriage is clearly primarily about Aisha, and the most detailed section on it should therefore be in Aisha"
"The paragraphs don't really fit into the criticism of Muhammad article because, well, they aren't about criticism of Muhammad"even though I disagreed but nonetheless considering that the age issue is more fleshed out here than in the criticism article where it is summarized, its only logical to remove the poorly located link. So that's done. StarkReport ( talk) 02:40, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
"replaced "Islamophobes" with "critics" and restored "pedophelia" because it is an established non-controversial fact that critics have accused Muhammad of pedophelia."Or did you change your mind? — Kaalakaa (talk) 23:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
References
Where did all the citations from the first paragraph vanish? I am going through the history. TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
@ Toddy1, you propose that we need to "discuss" the relative merits between citing Spellberg (1994) and a bevy of primary sources sourced from random internet websites? TrangaBellam ( talk) 20:29, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
"Aisha was 6 years old when she was married to Muhammad, and the consummation took place later, after the Hijra, when she was 9 years old; Muhammad was 53 years old at the time"to be repeated and redundant as the sebsequent section touches upoun this info extensively. So I tried to reintegrate other Kaalakaa changes while removing this repeated age bit.
the relative merits between citing Spellberg (1994) and a bevy of primary sources sourced from random internet websites- it explained why it was best to revert the other editor's version - and it was easy to verify the reason for objecting, and therefore to agree with it. If you had put that reason in either (a) your edit summary, or (b) on the talk page, I would not have reverted you.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:15, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
a bevy of primary sources". That was the old "
pre-Stark" version that @ DenverCoder19 restored [13]. My revision was this, every bit of material was backed up by reliable, independent secondary sources. — Kaalakaa (talk) 11:01, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
The idea of an "age of consent", condemnation of pedophilia, and the harm an adult-child sexual relationship does to the child, is not a purely modern construct made up in the twentieth century.
While there are many different cultures, the idea that pedophilia is harmful is well attested throughout history and cultures. The age of consent is almost always after has actually gone through puberty (usually 12-17), that is, is no longer considered a child.
I worry that in some sections of this article, it is suggested that pedophilia is merely a circumstantial belief, that happens to be true in modern times, specifically in the West. Especially troubling is the link between "colonial powers" and "age of consent" laws, that seem to imply anti-pedophilia laws were forced on countries as colonialism.
Wikipedia is not censored, but there is zero tolerance for apologies of pedophilia, that is, any content that suggests adult-child relationships are not harmful. We need to be very careful in sections of this article that seem to suggest condemnation of pedophilia is a circumstantial, modern-specific phenomenon and pedophilia can be acceptable as "cultural relativism". DenverCoder19 ( talk) 16:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
TrangaBellam ( talk) 19:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC)In recent decades, it is his [Muhammad's] marriage to Aisha that has provoked polemic. Traditional sources say that Aisha was six years old when Muhammad married her and nine when the marriage was consummated. As Ali notes, Aisha’s young age allowed early Muslim writers to insist not only on her sexual purity (she was the only one of Muhammad’s brides who had not previously been married) but also and more importantly on her religious purity (since she would have been born into a Muslim family). European writers before the mid-twentieth century found nothing shocking in her age, as arranged marriages and child brides were common in pre-modern societies, European and non-European. But with late-twentieth- and twenty-first-century concerns about child abuse, pedophilia, and arranged marriages, a number of polemicists assailed Muhammad for marrying a child, provoking fresh rounds of explanation and contextualization on the part of Muslim and many non-Muslim authors.
This thoughtful and stimulating book takes us well beyond the tired dichotomies between Orientalists and Subalterns, colonialists and colonized, Islam and the West.
This edit by DenverCoder19 has got nothing to do with the above, and I have reverted it. The edit was prudish and censored cited statements about their relationship, and replaced them with a near-meaningless statement. She was a small child when she married, and the deleted statements brought out the horror of such a situation by talking about the way she and her friends played with their dolls. The article is about Aisha, who was the youngest of the Prophet's wives. It ought to inform readers about their relationship, not sweep it under the rug because in a modern context it would be considered appalling.
It is also important that people in the past did not consider it appalling (though I have not reverted edits about that).-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:14, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
References
TrangaBellam, Toddy1, In the "Relationship with Muhammad" section, a detail that caught my eye: "Aisha also spoke her mind, even at the risk of angering Muhammad. On one such instance, Muhammad's "announcement of a revelation permitting him to enter into marriages disallowed to other men drew from her [Aisha] the retort, 'It seems to me your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire!" Considering that the Leila Ahmed source that is appended ahead is giving some sort of a impression of equality: "Complementarily, Aisha must have felt reasonably equal to and unawed by this prophet of God, for his announcement of a revelation permitting him to enter into marriages disallowed other men---------" whereas, the content "spoke her mind, even at the risk of angering Muhammad" gives a complete different impression. To maintain consistency and avoid misinterpretations or controversies stemming from a singular anecdote, I think the line is better omitted from the content. StarkReport ( talk) 11:15, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Complementarily, Aisha must have felt reasonably equal to and unawed by this prophet of God, for his announcement of a revelation permitting him to enter into marriages disallowed other men drew from her the retort, 'It seems to me your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire!'. [16] I do not know what the rest of pages 51 and 52 say.
"Aisha likely perceived a sense of equality toward Muhammad as his announcement of a revelation permitting him to enter into marriages forbidden to other men prompted her response, indicating that it appeared as if his Lord hurried to fulfill his desires.", If the copyright thingy applies.
"Aisha must have felt reasonably equal to and unawed by this prophet of God, for his announcement of a revelation permitting him to enter into marriages disallowed other men drew from her the retort, 'It seems to me your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire!'"
I've returned to a history-focused narrative of the marriage that centered on the historical figures and their reasoning, rather than divine revelation.
If you want to advocate for the new version, please do so here.
Do NOT re-add the new version without obtaining consensus. DenverCoder19 ( talk) 18:28, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
References
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Per Jesus and Taiwan, I've moved the Arabic, romanization, and pronunciation to the explanatory note. DenverCoder19 ( talk) 22:42, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
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The source to Hazrat Ayesha and Hazrat Hafsa poisoning the holy prophet is not credible as the book is an anonymous compilation and the claim is not supported anywhere else , there are great doubts surrounding this claim and is rejected by 99.9% of scholars, please remove this weak allegation source 39.48.18.64 ( talk) 23:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
I have moved the statement the IP editor is talking about to this talk page for discussion. It is as follows:
Ayyashi has narrated through authentic chains of narrators from Imam Ja’far Sadiq that, "Ayesha and Hafasa had poisoned the Prophet with that poison, so it is possible that both poisons caused his death." [1]
References
Hayat Al-Qulub is a late 17th Century book by a Shia cleric from Persia. The version by Ansariyan Publications was published in three volumes, and the citation did not say which volume chapter 65 was in. Its English-language title is variously called "Stories of the Prophets" or "Life of Hearts". The reliability of this book has been questioned by al-islam.org, which describes parts of the book as "very hagiographical"; al-islam.org also says that parts of the book contradict fundamental Islamic beliefs, and says that it would be foolish to take some parts of the book literally because they appear to be legends or myths. [17] -- Toddy1 (talk) 04:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Some Shii polemicists went as far as countering the Sunni designations of her as the 'vindicated' with a particularly incendiary remark, something that was taken up in the early twenty-first century by a controversial Kuwaiti Shii author based in the UK, Yasir al-Habib, who rehashed a polemical debate in which some Shii authors had claimed that Aisha and Hafsa had poisoned the Prophet. [1]
— Kaalakaa (talk) 08:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Hafsa is particularly reviled by the Shi'a, because along with the Prophet's wife 'Aisha she is believed to have caused him various sorts of tribulations. She is sometimes even accused of conspiring to poison him. [2]
So it makes sense to do a search on Google and Amazon to find out what they are.
References
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
{{subst:trim|1=
}Dear Wikipedia Editors,
I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to request an edit to the Wikipedia page regarding Prophet Muhammad's marriage to Aisha. Currently, the page mentions that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) married Aisha when she was nine years old. However, this information requires clarification and contextualization to provide a more accurate representation of historical accounts and Islamic teachings.
In Islam, the age of consent for marriage is a subject of interpretation and historical context. While it is true that some sources indicate Aisha's age at the time of her marriage to Prophet Muhammad as nine years old, it is important to consider additional factors and perspectives.
Firstly, scholars and historians have debated the accuracy of Aisha's reported age, with some suggesting that she may have been older at the time of her marriage. The reliability of historical records from over a thousand years ago can be complex, and interpretations vary.
Secondly, Islamic teachings emphasize the importance of understanding historical events within their cultural and societal contexts. In seventh-century Arabia, customs regarding marriage and age differed significantly from modern norms. Marriage at a young age was not uncommon during that period, and it is crucial to recognize this when discussing historical marriages, including that of Prophet Muhammad and Aisha.
Thirdly, Islam places great emphasis on justice, compassion, and the well-being of individuals. While certain practices of the past may not align with contemporary values, it is essential to approach historical accounts with a nuanced understanding rather than imposing present-day judgments.
Therefore, I propose the following edit to the Wikipedia page:
Provide a balanced discussion on the age of Aisha at the time of her marriage to Prophet Muhammad, acknowledging varying interpretations and historical debates. Offer contextual information about marriage customs and societal norms in seventh-century Arabia. Emphasize the importance of understanding historical events within their cultural contexts and avoiding anachronistic judgments. Provide references to scholarly sources and reputable Islamic sources to support the information presented. By making these edits, Wikipedia can offer a more comprehensive and nuanced portrayal of Prophet Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, reflecting the complexities of history and Islamic teachings.
Thank you for considering this request. Should you require further clarification or assistance, please feel free to reach out to me.} 103.166.244.135 ( talk) 22:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes below this line, preferably in a "change X to Y" format. Other editors need to know what to add or remove.What you have provided is a discussion about what might be desirable. It is not an edit request.-- Toddy1 (talk) 22:56, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Aisha was approximately 13-17 years old, not 7, when she married the Prophet. No valid accounts say she was younger than 13. She was also pre-engaged to someone else before she and her parents cancelled it and switched it to the Prophet, and still after marriage she did not live with him until 2 years later. First, the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child. Secondly, the age of Hazrat Aisha can be easily calculated from the age of her elder sister Hazrat Asma who was 10 years older than Hazrat Aisha. Waliuddin Muhammad Abdullah Al-Khateeb al Amri Tabrizi the famous author of Mishkath, in his biography of narrators (Asma ur Rijal), writes that Hazrat Asma died in the year 73 Hijri at the age of 100, ten or twelve days after the martyrdom of her son Abdullah Ibn Zubair. It is common knowledge that the Islamic calendar starts from the year of the Hijrah or the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina. Therefore, by deducting 73, the year of Hazrat Asma’s death, from 100, her age at that time, we can easily conclude that she was 27 years old during Hijra.This puts the age of Hazrat Aisha at 17 during the same period. As all biographers of the Prophet agree that he consummated his marriage with Hazrat Aisha in the year 2 Hijri it can be conclusively said that she was 19 at that time and not nine as alleged in the aforementioned hadiths. 96.255.139.57 ( talk) 02:58, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
The following is from Hayat Al-Qulub, a Shia source:
Ayyashi has narrated through authentic chains of narrators from Imam Ja’far Sadiq that, "Ayesha and Hafasa had poisoned the Prophet with that poison, so it is possible that both poisons caused his death." [1]
As mentioned earlier in this talk page, some people want this content not to be in the article as 'it is a Shia source and hence not reliable'.
I don't understand, why should Sunni Muslims get preferential treatment compared to Shia Muslims? That's a sub-sect issue, not an issue for neutral knowledge. My point is let both Sunni and Shia versions stay side by side and let the readers decide based on the references.
Is there any WIkiPedia policy that dictates why the said content should not be in this article? Additionally, is there any globally accepted academic research which states that all Shia sources are wrong? Does WikiPedia prefers Sunni sources over Shia sources? Kawrno Baba ( talk) 08:47, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
References
Ayesha and Hafasa had poisoned the Prophet with that poison, so it is possible that both poisons caused his death.
@Kaalakaa You stated that the sources I referenced are not independent : https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Aisha&diff=prev&oldid=1217509852.
Can you state the reasons you believe that these are not independent sources ? Hakikatco ( talk) 05:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
An independent source is a source that has no vested interest in a given Wikipedia topic and therefore is commonly expected to cover the topic from a disinterested perspective. Independent sources have editorial independence (advertisers do not dictate content) and no conflicts of interest (there is no potential for personal, financial, or political gain to be made from the existence of the publication).
This Talk page needs a FaQ seeing as a bunch of questions are repeated. Babysharkboss2 was here!! Ex-Mørtis 13:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
From what I've noticed, some of the most common are:what other questions have been repeated?
References
@ Kaalakaa: OK, but what are the questions that are frequently asked? The points you make above relate to one question only, which could be phrased as "why does this article say Aisha married at age 6-7 and the marriage was consummated at age 9, when other sources prove she was older?" The points you make can be restated as answers to that question. Are there any other questions that are frequently asked? Or is it just about her age? ~ Anachronist ( talk) 18:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
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Hazrat Aisha age at the time of marriage with Prophet PBUH was 19 and when she moved in it was 21. Here is how.
There’s consensus that Aisha was 10 years younger than her elder sister Asma,whose age 28 at the time of the hijrah, or migration to Madina. It can be concluded Aisha was about 18 years old at migration. Hazrat Asma (elder Sister)got married at the age of 26 & Aysha was still at home age 16 (umarried). Aisha Nikkah was performed 3 years later with Prophet (PBUH)at age 19(Tass-Ashra)not just Tass(Ashra was either miss printed or maliciously removed to malign. Hazrat Aisha moved to live with Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)2 years after Nikkah at the age of 21. On her moving to the Prophet’s house,she was a young woman at 21. Hisham is single narrator of the hadees whose authenticity is challenged bcaz of (Tass-Ashra) Ashra missing to make it look like 9, it doesn’t correlate with the historical facts of the time.Aisha narrates that she was present on the battlefield at the Battle of Badar (Muslim).This leads one to conclude that Hazrat Aisha moved into the Prophet’s house in 1 A.H. But a nine-year-old could not have been taken on a rough and risky military mission. In 2 A.H, the Prophet refused to take boys of less than 15 years of age to the battle of Uhud. Would he have allowed a 10-year-old girl to accompany him? But Anas reported that he saw Aisha and Umme Sulaim carrying goatskins full of water and serving it to the soldiers (Bukhari). Umme Sulaim and Umme Ammara, the other women present at Uhud,were both strong, mature women whose duties were the lifting of the dead & injured,treating their wounds,carrying water in heavy goatskins, supplying ammunition and even taking up the sword.
Aisha used the kunniat,the title derived from the name of a child,of Umme Abdullah after her nephew and adopted son.If she was 6 when her nikah was performed,she would have been only eight years his senior,hardly making him eligible for adoption.A little girl couldn’t have given up on ever having her own child and used an adopted child’s name for her kunniat.
Aisha’s nephew Urwah once remarked that he wasn’t surprised about her amazing knowledge of Islamic law,poetry,history bcaz she was the wife of the Prophet & the daughter of Abu Bakr. If she was 9 when her father migrated and when did she learn poetry history from him? so the age was 21 not 5 or 6 or 9. Prophets own daughters were married at the age of either 21 or 23. 148.252.146.53 ( talk) 23:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
John Little the Oxford professor
The arguments brought forward here is used by a lot of modernist and liberal scholars
they should be noted to some extent.
In response, some Muslims chose to align themselves with the projects of modernization and re-calculated her age — using deft stratagems of omission and commission — to fix it at early adolescence— Kaalakaa (talk) 05:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
My belief is that when you both wrote John Little
you really meant "Joshua Little", who is an author at
Islamic Origins. Little says that he is a
research fellow at the
University of Groningen, and got a DPhil from
Oxford University.
[18]
Wikipedia's policy is that exceptional claims require exceptional sources. As far as I can tell Joshua Little has not converted his thesis into a published book - so it clearly does not count as an exceptional source (and indeed it might not even if it had been published as a book). If Little's work had been turned into a book, then secondary sources such as the New Lines Magazine article would help us assess it. -- Toddy1 (talk) 06:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
Sahih Bukhari is among the most adhered hadith collection in the Islamic world. It states that, her marriage was consummated at such age when she still played with dolls. [1] In the commentary of the Sahih Bukhari it is written that, "Playing with dolls is forbidden in Islam, but it was allowed for Aisha at that time, as she did not yet reach the age of puberty." [2]
Can this part be added in the article? Does this part violates any WikiPedia policy? Kawrno Baba ( talk) 07:45, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Narrated `Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 6130. In-book reference: Book 78, Hadith 157. USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 151.)Is this explained more fully in Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13? If it is, please can we have a translated quotation that is long enough for an educated person without specialised knowledge to understand that this is what is meant.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:13, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Previous version | Kawrno Baba's proposed new version |
---|---|
Islamic sources of the classical era list Aisha's age at the time of her marriage as six or seven and nine or ten at its consummation. In a hadith from Sahih al-Bukhari, Aisha recollects having been married at six years of age. [5] Ibn Sa'd's biography holds her age at the time of marriage as between six and seven, and gives her age at consummation to be nine while Ibn Hisham's biography of Muhammad suggests she may have been ten years old at consummation. [6] Al-Tabari notes Aisha to have stayed with her parents after the marriage and consummated the relationship at nine years of age since she was young and sexually immature at the time of marriage; however, elsewhere Tabari appears to suggest that she was born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage. [7] [8] | Islamic sources of the classical era list Aisha's age at the time of her marriage as six or seven and nine or ten at its consummation. In a hadith from Sahih al-Bukhari, Aisha recollects having been married at six years of age. [5] Ibn Sa'd's biography holds her age at the time of marriage as between six and seven, and gives her age at consummation to be nine while Ibn Hisham's biography of Muhammad suggests she may have been ten years old at consummation. [6] Sahih Bukhari states that her marriage was consummated at such age when she still played with dolls. [9] [a] In the commentary of the Sahih Bukhari it is written that, "Playing with dolls is forbidden in Islam, but it was allowed for Aisha at that time, as she did not yet reach the age of puberty." [19] Al-Tabari notes Aisha to have stayed with her parents after the marriage and consummated the relationship at nine years of age since she was young and sexually immature at the time of marriage; however, elsewhere Tabari appears to suggest that she was born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage. [7] [8] |
Note that Kawrno Baba's proposed new version has two undefined citation names in the bundled footnote: <ref name="Watt-encyc-online" /> and <ref name="Spellberg" />. I assume that this because some of the text was adapted from another Wikipedia article.
@
Kawrno Baba: that kind of bundling of references inside a footnote is not an acceptable style. It is better to have the citations in the text: Sahih Bukhari states that her marriage was consummated at such age when she still played with dolls.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16]
Also, if you copy from another Wikipedia page, please could you state this in the edit summary, and check that your edit includes definitions of the named citations you are moving. --
Toddy1
(talk)
08:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Sahih Bukhari states that her marriage was consummated at such age when she still played with dolls.[7][a]The "[a]" is the bundled footnote. If you look at the markup language in your edit, [19] there is a bit that starts
{{efn|
. That is the start of the bundled footnote. You can see what it looks like in the note section below.--
Toddy1
(talk)
09:27, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Kawrno Baba: My guess is that most of the new citations do not actually support the sentences they are cited for, but instead support the generally accepted position about Aisha's age on marriage. i.e. most of them are probably irrelevant to the sentences they are placed next to. -- Toddy1 (talk) 08:46, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
References
Watt-encyc-online
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Spellberg
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Evidence that the Prophet waited for Aisha to reach physical maturity before consummation comes from al-Ṭabarī, who says she was too young for intercourse at the time of the marriage contract;
{{
cite book}}
: URL–wikilink conflict (
help)