![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Many Muslim historians, particularly Shia scholars who do not believe Sahih al-Bukhari to be authentic, have estimated Aisha's age to be between 18 and 19 by comparing her age to Asma bint Abi Bakr's age at the time of Aisha and other historical occurrences. We would be seriously violating WP:NPOV and WP:Cherrypicking if we only included the Sunni side of the argument while excluding the Shia side. Study the sources yourselves: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Now, yes, it is disputed and will become even more so in the near future. But right now the best we can do is provide all responses, it is of vital importance, otherwise I would not bother. StarkReport ( talk) 10:42, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
References
On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.
The critics of this hadith propose that Aisha was a teenager, or older than a child when she married the Prophet (Kandhalvi 1997; al-Idlibi in Mol 2018; Juyandeh 2010; Ahmed 2012). They make their argument by comparing the ages of individuals who are contemporary and close to Aisha, such as her sister, Asma' and the Prophet's daughter, Fatima. It was recorded that Asma’ died at the age of 100 in 73 AH (al-’Asqalani 1986; Ibn ‘Abd al-Bar 1992; Ibnu Kathir 1990). Her age at the time of Hijrah was around 27 years (Ibn al-Athir 1989; Abu Nu’aym 1998). Moreover, Aisha is said to be 10 years younger than Asma’ as reported by Abdul Rahman Ibn Abi Zinad (al-Zahabi 1963), which makes her age about 17 during the marriage (Islamweb 2003); thus, she is estimated to be around 18 years old when living with the Prophet, which is about a year after she migrated to Medina (al-Ghufayli 2011), or 18 months after the Prophet’s migration to Medina (Ibn Abd al-Bar 1992).
Traditionalists dismiss this calculation by arguing that the age difference of Asma' and Aisha of 10 years is not a consensus among Islamic historians. It was noted that al-Zahabi (1963) stated that the age difference between the two was between 13 and 19 years, and not 10 years as the critics assume. Thus, Aisha's age in the year of Hijrah was eight or nine years old and not 18 years old (IslamQA n.d.). Asma's age at the time of the migration was 27 years minus the 19 years age gap between the two, which means Aisha's age was seven years old when she married the Prophet, a year before the Hijrah. This aligns with al-'Asqalani’s (1994) report, which asserted Aisha was born four or five years after the advent of Islam. In echoing the hadith giants such as Yahya Ibn Mu’in, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, al-Nasaie, Abu Ahmad al-Hakim dan Abu Hatim, the traditionalists also attacked the credibility of Ibn Abi Zinad as a weak narrator to dismiss his narration (Malik 2018; al-Ghufayli 2011).
References
It actually just favours the Sunni side.
The earth is ellipsoid in shape, but some scientists, based on some evidence, state that it is actually flat-shaped.
Protecing admin chiming in here. As a Wikipedia policy question, since WP:NPOV was mentioned, the relevant policy here would be WP:FALSEBALANCE, which is part of WP:NPOV. That said, a minority viewpoint held by notable scholars could possibly be included as long as the article makes it clear that the viewpoint is in the minority. Might it be possible route to a consensus? ~ Anachronist ( talk) 06:00, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Some modern Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, estimate that she was over thirteen and must have been 18 or 19 at the time of her marriage.
Androvie ( talk) 11:52, 23 February 2023 (UTC)Some scientists, based on some evidence, found out that the earth is actually flat-shaped.
In response, some Muslims chose to align themselves with the projects of modernization and re-calculated her age—using deft stratagems of omission and commission—to fix it at early adolescence, but conservatives rejected such revisionist readings since they flew in the face of ʻilm al-ḥadīth.
The earth is ellipsoid in shape, but some scientists, based on some evidence, state that it is actually flat-shaped.
Androvie ( talk) 08:46, 24 February 2023 (UTC)While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view, fringe theory, or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity. There are many such beliefs in the world, some popular and some little-known: claims that the Earth is flat, that the Knights Templar possessed the Holy Grail, that the Apollo Moon landings were a hoax, and similar ones. Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world.
References
References
it is a well-known paradox of historical accounts that those which contain errors or inconsistencies are often more reliable than those that are too consistent or coherent, since these instead tend more to imply imposed narrative or subsequent embellishment
References
Androvie ( talk) 10:28, 25 February 2023 (UTC)The critics' arguments were answered by traditionalists by correcting the critics' readings of al-Tabari texts, which should be read as "The four are his children born to his two wives whom we stated in the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic) period". The interpretation is that just because he married his two wives whom during pre-Islamic times, it does not mean that his four children were also born during the pre-Islamic period. This is because al- Tabari (1968) himself narrated that when the Prophet married Aisha, he was six years old (al- Ghufayli 2011).
References
This policy does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content and sources, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards.
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "Aisha's age has become a tool of Islamophobic polemicists to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia" to "Aisha's age has become a tool of polemicists to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia". See the section above #Islamophic polemicist?. The use of the word is not present in the source and also contradicts Wikipedia policy. 117.194.196.192 ( talk) 11:40, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
While Kecia Ali has tries her best to dampen the "hysteria" around child sexual abuse and humanise sex with children a bit, even she doesn't go as far as to call the polemicists against the marriage "Islamophobic", which is quite a loaded term.
From the source: "Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha has become, for contemporary polemicists, evidence of pedophilia not as a medical diagnosis but as an archaic and evil force." No mention of any phobias in the given ranges and surrounding pages either. That insertion would be the bias of Wikipedia editors. It is both against Wikipedia policy and distortion of the source. Please edit it away. 117.194.197.190 ( talk) 22:23, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
− | {{cite book|last1=Barlas|first1=Asma|author1-link=Asma Barlas|title=Believing Women in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur'an|year=2002|publisher=[[University of Texas Press]]|isbn=978-0292709041|title-link=Believing Women in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the | + | {{cite book|last1=Barlas|first1=Asma|author1-link=Asma Barlas|title=Believing Women in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur'an|year=2002|publisher=[[University of Texas Press]]|isbn=978-0292709041|title-link=Believing Women in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur'an |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zTBsYnWp5-wC&dq=ayesha+Believing+Women+in+Islam:+Unreading+Patriarchal+Interpretations+of+the+Qur%27an }} |
Thus moving the URL into the template. This also move the java-script parts of the url into the actual url. Not that it helps much since google no longer allows you to view inside this book. AManWithNoPlan ( talk) 16:33, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
Sir/Madam I Do Not Who You Are But Hazrat Ayesha(PBUH) Was Not 5-6 when he married to Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) when her (PBUH) age was 17-18
Aisha was born 5-6 years before the beginning of revelation. Thus, it appears that the age of Aisha was 17-18 when she got married to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
If You Do Not Believe Me Sir/Madam. Please Look Up The Source I Have Given.
https://questionsonislam.com/article/how-old-was-aisha-ra-when-she-got-married-prophet-muhammad-pbuh — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.157.246.193 ( talk) 18:30, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
Nearly every writer that has questioned Aisha's age has been writing in the last couple decades. It doesn't take a deep analysis to realize that there is strong pressure to interpret Aisha as older. The article should explain this dynamic, rather than trying to say, "Some scholars have said X, others Y". DenverCoder9 ( talk) 21:34, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
"Aisha's age has become a tool of polemicists to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia—not as a diagnostic category but as the highest category of evil"
This just seems a really weird sentance? It seems to be at least veering on bias and is also just a weirdly phrased aside.
Is there any particular reason to have this rather then something like "due to Aisha's age, some observers have accused Muhammad of pedophilia"? 146.198.211.109 ( talk) 01:44, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I suggest changing "In the late-twentieth century and early twenty-first century, Aisha's age has become a tool of polemicists to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia—not as a diagnostic category but as the highest category of evil—and reason for the apparently higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies, among other ills." (at the end of the "age at time of marriage" section) to "In the late-twentieth century and early twenty-first century, opponents of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia, as well as explain a reported high prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies."
This is less biased towards either side, simply explaining what the accusations are, while the current one seems to be clearly pro-islam? It also sounds more clinical I think. Urbenmyth ( talk) 15:07, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
I don’t trust Wikipedia!!! They don’t even check the credible source!!! You should update your information!!! 95.147.21.41 ( talk) 19:33, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia is proving again as usual to be biased and non credible when they purposely only state one viewpoint but not the alternatives. Everyone knows how contentious this topic is for Muslims. This is why the article is deliberately locked out and the young age is being enforced deliberately misguiding the public.
The age of 6-9yrs is only coming from certain Bukhari and his student ‘Muslim’ Hadith’s.
Alternative sources give a very solid example of Aishas age being 16-19 all linked to another wife Asma’s age of 27 at the time.
Why has the article purposely been locked and written as if 6-9yrs was absolute fact?
Most with knowledge about Islam are aware that Hadith are generally inaccurate anyway due to the dubious way they were compiled 200 years after Mohammeds death. Also had Mohammed married Aisha at such a young age he would be defying his own Quran (4:6) which supports marriage at the age of maturity and mutual consent of both partners!
Please change this article and be more truthful. People who are newly researching Islam are being misguided by the article written in a mischievous way to suggest the infant age of marriage was an absolute fact - it isn’t!
Wikipedia is being used as a trusted source and it’s time it was brought under scrutiny. I’m seeing this deliberate mischief for years and moderators need to be fair. EddyJawed ( talk) 17:20, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Aisha, the third wife of prophet Muhammad (SAW) was 18 years when her marriage was consummated not 9. The information on this article is deliberately misleading and wrong. Please help make corrections. Thanks. Anike.sm ( talk) 14:37, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
References
On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.
It has been researched by some Islamic scholars and they've come to the conclusion that, the real age might have been mistakenly changed through the long chain of amendments and updates to the previous books. Considering she was offered in marriage because Prophet Muhammad already had 6 to 7 year old children at home, giving in marriage another 6 year old wouldn't be something even slightly wise to do. Also considering the age of Aeysha's sister was 100 at her death and 77 at hijrat so comparing doesnt bring Ayesha's age to 6 or 9. 72.255.3.181 ( talk) 13:28, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
Copying over a
comment from my user talk page, by an editor who I had
asked to better explain their
deletion of the entire "Role during the third caliphate" section beyond the edit summary Removed false, harmful and biased information. the source is also biased, insensitive, has its own agendas and incorrect.
Regards,
HaeB (
talk)
05:13, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
She’s not the only lady whom he received revelations with. Umm salamah also witnessed him receiving revelations like 33:33 of The Quran or Zainab bint Jahsh with the ayah of the hijab which was revealed in her home on her wedding day. But rather the only person whom he received revelations in bed. As that’s what the hadith states.
She also have said that she had a co wife whom The prophet loved equally and that was Zainab bint Jahsh.
Ibn Abbas reported that the prophet did die in her room but it was in the arms of Ali.
Please make your corrections and give credit when it’s due. 2A04:4A43:588F:BC88:9494:3180:6807:BF1F ( talk) 15:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
change "Aisha being 6 or 7 years old at the time of her marriage" to "Aisha being 18 or 19 years old at the time of her marriage" Abed Mneimneh ( talk) 12:30, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template.
Cannolis (
talk)
17:09, 1 August 2023 (UTC)Hello why can't we edit this article? There is no button for that? 182.183.0.254 ( talk) 05:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Before I start, this request has already been asked before, but the questioner didn't lay any sources. My Request has 4 Chapters, "what to change", "my points", "sources", "a good explanation on why this is and left sources".
change: "change birthdate of aisha to 605/604" ; "Aisha being 6 or 7 years old at the time of her marriage" to "Aisha being 18 or 19 years old at the time of her marriage
Points: 1. If you look at the birth date on asma bint abi bakr she was born 595/594, and aisha was 10 years younger than her so it would make her birth year 605/4.
2. On the "wives of muhammad" it says aishah was married to him from 623-631.
3. 623 - 605/4 = 18/19.
4. would make sense aswell because of some historic events
Sources : Asma being 10 years older than aisha: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Abi_Bakr#:~:text=The%20historians%20Ibn%20Kathir%20and,was%20thirteen%20to%20fifteen%20years.
Marriage was around ~623: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_of_Muhammad
And again a firm explanation for this with sources: https://unity1.store/2021/09/26/the-age-of-aisha-at-marriage/#:~:text=3.1%20Comparing%20Aisha's%20age%20to%20that%20of%20her%20older%20sister%20Asma&text=Thus%3A,the%20time%20of%20the%20Hijrah Owaysmc33 ( talk) 16:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change year of birth from c. 613/614 to 'disputed'.
Add to 'and 9 at the consummation', -->', while some place it at around 18;'
Reference taken from Sahih al-Bukhari hadith 4993 where Aisha recounts being 'a young girl of playing age' when a verse from Surah Al Qamar was revealed in the year 614. Hence that cannot be the year of her birth as put in Wikipedia. [1] Xolta05 ( talk) 01:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
References
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template.
Lewcm
Talk to me!
13:28, 15 December 2023 (UTC)In the “political career” section it notes that after 14 years of marriage Aisha lived a further 50 years before her death. With her age at death given as 63/64 years that would put her age at marriage at either 1 or 0. With my current knowledge I know that that can’t be right but I don’t have the required knowledge to accurately correct it. Given how potentially sensitive this page could be I thought I should raise the question and hope someone with deeper knowledge can address this issue properly.
Thanks Flashburn98 ( talk) 13:45, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia,If aisha(r.a.) was born in 604 A.D. ,then at her marriage in 620 AD ,She should be 16years old ,but u show 6 years old ,how do u count, although it is wrong birth date ,she was born in 594 AD ,so edit it false information 2409:40D2:3F:4A58:8000:0:0:0 ( talk) 03:27, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
One or two domestic events are dated in 623. The most important was the consummation of Muhammad's marriage with 'A'ishah, which took place in April when the bride could only have been about nine.
A few months after the hegira, Muhammad and Abu Bakr decided to bring their families from Mecca. ... Muhammad's wedding to the little girl followed soon afterwards. This is what 'A'isha apparently had to say about it: The Messenger of God married me when I was six years old and the wedding was celebrated when I was nine.
— Kaalakaa (talk) 13:48, 22 November 2023 (UTC)‘A’isha bt. abi Bakr’s marriage to Muhammad dates back to the Meccan period; the contract was concluded when she was a six-year-old child; Muhammad consummated the marriage in Medina when she was nine years old.
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
According to some other more reliable scholars Aisha was 18 years old when they got married. [1] Abi00024 ( talk) 12:17, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Not done for now: please establish a
consensus for this alteration
before using the
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template.
PianoDan (
talk)
00:15, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
References
@
StarkReport: Regarding
this recent edit of yours to the article, nowhere in the pages (39–40) provided does Spellberg say anything like "elsewhere it is noted to be twelve or more at marriage".
His analysis there, as well as the consensus of leading secular scholars,
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
[7]
[8]
[9] is that Aisha's age was 6–7 at marriage and 9 at consummation. That's what we should be reporting, not presenting the view of a single dissenting primary source as if it has the same validity as that of the vast majority of primary and reliable
secondary sources. This is also in violation of
WP:FALSEBALANCE. —
Kaalakaa
(talk)
11:19, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
4. ‘A'isha was born four or five years after Muhammad’s prophetic mission began, according to Ibn Sa‘d, Tabaqat, 8:79. However, a slightly later chronicle suggests that ‘A'isha was born in the jahiliyya, the period before the revelation of Islam to Muhammad. If the latter is true, then ‘A'isha’s age at the time of her marriage might have been twelve or thirteen, rather than the usually stated nine given in most early sources. Such a suggestion would also throw off her age at the date of her death. For the contradiction, see al-Tabari, Ta’rikh al-rusul wa al-muluk, 4:2135.
‘Aisha’s married life with the Prophet spanned only twelve years. As recorded, she narrates key aspects of this brief marital chronology: “I was six years old when the Prophet married me and I was nine when he consummated the marriage.
Tabari includes several reports that that the marriage took place when she was six or seven. He once notes that “when he married her she was young, unfit for intercourse.” However, he says nothing about puberty and consistently states that consummation occurred when she was nine.
"elsewhere it is noted to be twelve or more at marriage."— Kaalakaa (talk) 17:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
A preponderance of classical sources converge onin the current revision of the lead seems a bit too strong. It's rather about a majority account versus various minority accounts, in sources which are ever doubtful. I think it would be better to switch to a phrasing that takes account of this, something more like "the majority of sources ... However, ...", as Afsaruddin 2014 does.
— Kaalakaa (talk) 04:45, 31 January 2024 (UTC)أَخْبَرَنَا عَفَّانُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ. أَخْبَرَنَا وُهَيْبٌ. أَخْبَرَنَا هِشَامُ بْنُ عُرْوَةَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ - صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِوسلم - تزوجها وهي ابنة سِتِّ سِنِينَ وَبَنَى بِهَا وَهِيَ ابْنَةُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ
Affan ibn Muslim informed us, Wuhayb informed us, Hisham ibn 'Urwah informed us from his father, from Aisha, that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old."
There are far more WP:Notability things about Aisha(the linked page says already in the nutshell
The notability guideline does not determine the content of articles, but only whether the topic may have its own article).
imperative to provide a comprehensive spectrumin the lead section - to the contrary, per WP:LEDE, it should just
summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight, with a comprehensive treatment left to the article body.
This aligns with the objective with the proposed content inclusion given in the above topic. Regrettably, it is also being completely removed.per WP:LEDE, it should just summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight, with a comprehensive treatment left to the article body
A preponderance of classical sources converge onphrase, please see WP:RS/AC: statements regarding academic consensus must themselves be directly based in a similar statement in an RS. I guess I was just curious what source is using such strong language? It's a bit unusual for scholars to be so confident for the reasons I explained above.
report from Hishām b. ʿUrwa recorded by Ibn Saʿdsupposedly supporting an alternative chronology, Afsaruddin is probably referring to another report on the same page (8:49) of Ibn Saʿd's al-Ṭabaqāt: (my translation, my bolding for easy reference)
أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ حُمَيْدٍ الْعَبْدِيُّ. حَدَّثَنَا مَعْمَرٌ عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ وَهِشَامِ بْنِ عُرْوَةَ قَالا: نَكَحَ النَّبِيُّ - صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وسلم - عائشة وهي ابنة تِسْعِ سَنَوَاتٍ أَوْ سَبْعٍ.
Muhammad ibn Humayd al-Abdi told us, Ma'mar told us on the authority of al-Zuhri and Hisham ibn Urwa, who both said: the prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, married A'isha when she was nine or seven years old.
أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو مُعَاوِيَةَ الضَّرِيرُ. حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشِ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنِ الأَسْوَدِ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ قَالَتْ: تَزَوَّجَهَا رَسُول اللَّهِ - صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ - وَهِيَ بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ وَمَاتَ عَنْهَا وَهِيَ ابْنَةُ ثَمَانِيَ عَشْرَةَ.
Abu Mu'awiya al-Darir tolds us, al-A'mash told us on the authority of Ibrahim on the authority of al-Aswad on the authority of A'isha, who said: [that] the messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, married her when she was a girl of nine years old, and he died when she was eighteen years of age.
تزوجها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بمكة، شرفها الله تعالى، قبل الهجرة بثلاث سنين، وقيل انه تزوجها قبل سودة، زوجه إياها أبوها فأصدقها مثلما أصدق سودة. وكان لها يوم تزوجها ست سنين، وما تزوج بكراً سواها، وقبض صلى الله عليه وسلم وهي بنت ثماني عشرة سنة، وماتت في خلافة معاوية سنة ثمان وخمسين ولها سبع وستون سنة
The messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, married her, may God exalted honor her, in Mecca, three years before the hijra. And it is said that he married her before Sawda. Her father gave her to him in marriage, and he gave her the same dowry that he had given to Sawda. On the day that he married her she was six years old, and he did not marry any virgin apart from her. He died, may God bless him and grant him peace, when she was a girl of eighteen years old. She died during the caliphate of Mu'awiya, in the year fifty eight, when she was sixty seven years old.
according to the chronology of Ibn Khallikān (d. 681/1282) she would have been nine at her marriage and twelve at its consummation (Wafayāt al-aʿyān, 3:16)seems to be pulled out of thin air. This renders her completely unreliable as a source. I already knew that the third edition of Encyclopaedia of Islam is often of lower quality than the hallowed second edition, but this is really disappointing for a work which is still held to be the standard reference work in the field.
References
@ JooneBug37: You added to the article text:
Some modern Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, estimate that she was over thirteen and could have been 18 or 19 at the time of her marriage. [a]
However, out of the four sources you have provided, these two
are clearly not
independent or reliable sources. (See
WP:SOURCE)
Meanwhile, this one:
doesn't talk about any recalculation based on her sister Asma's age at all, but
Aqqad cleverly skirts the authenticated Hadith found in Sahih Bukhari in which Aisha herself reports that she was nine at the time, addressing it only obliquely by suggesting that Aisha was fond of emphasizing her childhood spent in the nascent days of Islam and how young she was during the faith’s formative days. ‘Aqqad thus allows his readers to reconcile their faith in the Prophet’s complete rectitude and even in Islam’s collective historical corpus with what many had come to accept as the ‘natural’ and ideal norms for marriage.
More conservative Muslim scholars objected to this rereading of the Prophet’s life. They sensed the epistemological turnover behind ‘Aqqad’s defense of Islam. Not only did it upturn the hierarchy of authority within the Sunni scriptural canon by ignoring a clear text contained in Bukhari’s august Sahih, it also broke with the Shariah consensus on marriage age. No member of Egypt’s religious establishment showed more displeasure with ‘Aqqad than Ahmad Shakir. In the spring of 1944 he penned a number of popular journal articles excoriating the famous wordsmith’s book on the Prophet’s most active wife.
The only reliable source that supports your addition is the following one:
On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.
However, the author has released a revised edition [5] of the book in which that statement appears to no longer exist, seemingly having been retracted. And on the other hand, Kecia Ali, in her "The Lives of Muhammad" (2014) published by Harvard University Press, p.173, states:
In the late twentieth century, in a renewed climate of criticism of Islam, divergent tendencies emerge in Muslim and non-Muslim sources. Muslim scholars engage in apologetics to justify Aisha’s marriage. The dominant strategy is to contextualize it as historically appropriate to its time and place and to play up, as with the multiple marriages, the politi cal motivations behind it. A less common strategy recalculates Aisha’s age at marriage based on other indicators in the sources.
Added to the fact that the theory departs significantly from a plethora of reliable sources which state that the marriage occured when Aisha was 6 and the consummation when she was 9. [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] These mean your addition is clearly a WP:FRINGE, and thus, its inclusion is WP:UNDUE and creating a WP:FALSEBALANCE. — Kaalakaa (talk) 18:01, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view, fringe theory, or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity. There are many such beliefs in the world, some popular and some little-known: claims that the Earth is flat, that the Knights Templar possessed the Holy Grail, that the Apollo Moon landings were a hoax, and similar ones. Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world.
— Kaalakaa (talk) 16:18, 29 January 2024 (UTC)Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view. Views held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as the flat Earth). Giving undue weight to the view of a significant minority or including that of a tiny minority might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute.
When I wrote "fundamentalists" I did not necessarily means to use the exact verbatim. We can write "dismissed by historians."
as well as Ayatollah Qazvini and Asma Barlas.Some contemporary scholars such as Mawlana Muhammad Farooq Khan (Maqsood 1996), Umar Ahmed Usmani, Hakim Niaz Ahmad, Habib al-Rahman Siddiqui Kandhalvi (Kandhalvi 1997), Jasser Auda (Auda 2018), Salah al-Din al-Idlibi (Mol 2018), and Muslim authors such as Ridhwan Muhammad Saleem (Muhammad Saleem 2008) [21] and Nilofar Ahmed (Ahmed 2012)
Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
An independent source is a source that has no vested interest in a given Wikipedia topic and therefore is commonly expected to cover the topic from a disinterested perspective. Independent sources have editorial independence (advertisers do not dictate content) and no conflicts of interest (there is no potential for personal, financial, or political gain to be made from the existence of the publication).
— Kaalakaa (talk) 09:41, 30 January 2024 (UTC)Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship.
which is exactly the below wording does:"otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world,"
When considering "due impartiality" ... [we are] careful when reporting on science to make a distinction between an opinion and a fact. When there is a consensus of opinion on scientific matters, providing an opposite view without consideration of "due weight" can lead to "false balance"
Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources. ... Surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources; Challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest; ... Claims contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions.... Those things apply here.
References
On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.
Like in Muhammad, I've moved discussion of titles/names into an efn. It isn't notable enough from a historical point of view to be half the first paragraph of a lede. It's like stating that the prefix "His Majesty" is used in the article for King Henry VIII.
This is more a discussion of what she is called rather than who she was. It isn't even an alternate name. DenverCoder19 ( talk) 16:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I have written the Dutch version of this article: https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aïsja
I have a way more accurate and detailed biography with historical sources. I would appreciate if someone with editing privileges would translate the page and copy paste it here. A main difference is the age of Aisha being 15-19 instead of the younger age, this makes more sense considering other chronological events and mathematics 94.157.195.134 ( talk) 12:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Many Muslim historians, particularly Shia scholars who do not believe Sahih al-Bukhari to be authentic, have estimated Aisha's age to be between 18 and 19 by comparing her age to Asma bint Abi Bakr's age at the time of Aisha and other historical occurrences. We would be seriously violating WP:NPOV and WP:Cherrypicking if we only included the Sunni side of the argument while excluding the Shia side. Study the sources yourselves: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Now, yes, it is disputed and will become even more so in the near future. But right now the best we can do is provide all responses, it is of vital importance, otherwise I would not bother. StarkReport ( talk) 10:42, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
References
On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.
The critics of this hadith propose that Aisha was a teenager, or older than a child when she married the Prophet (Kandhalvi 1997; al-Idlibi in Mol 2018; Juyandeh 2010; Ahmed 2012). They make their argument by comparing the ages of individuals who are contemporary and close to Aisha, such as her sister, Asma' and the Prophet's daughter, Fatima. It was recorded that Asma’ died at the age of 100 in 73 AH (al-’Asqalani 1986; Ibn ‘Abd al-Bar 1992; Ibnu Kathir 1990). Her age at the time of Hijrah was around 27 years (Ibn al-Athir 1989; Abu Nu’aym 1998). Moreover, Aisha is said to be 10 years younger than Asma’ as reported by Abdul Rahman Ibn Abi Zinad (al-Zahabi 1963), which makes her age about 17 during the marriage (Islamweb 2003); thus, she is estimated to be around 18 years old when living with the Prophet, which is about a year after she migrated to Medina (al-Ghufayli 2011), or 18 months after the Prophet’s migration to Medina (Ibn Abd al-Bar 1992).
Traditionalists dismiss this calculation by arguing that the age difference of Asma' and Aisha of 10 years is not a consensus among Islamic historians. It was noted that al-Zahabi (1963) stated that the age difference between the two was between 13 and 19 years, and not 10 years as the critics assume. Thus, Aisha's age in the year of Hijrah was eight or nine years old and not 18 years old (IslamQA n.d.). Asma's age at the time of the migration was 27 years minus the 19 years age gap between the two, which means Aisha's age was seven years old when she married the Prophet, a year before the Hijrah. This aligns with al-'Asqalani’s (1994) report, which asserted Aisha was born four or five years after the advent of Islam. In echoing the hadith giants such as Yahya Ibn Mu’in, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, al-Nasaie, Abu Ahmad al-Hakim dan Abu Hatim, the traditionalists also attacked the credibility of Ibn Abi Zinad as a weak narrator to dismiss his narration (Malik 2018; al-Ghufayli 2011).
References
It actually just favours the Sunni side.
The earth is ellipsoid in shape, but some scientists, based on some evidence, state that it is actually flat-shaped.
Protecing admin chiming in here. As a Wikipedia policy question, since WP:NPOV was mentioned, the relevant policy here would be WP:FALSEBALANCE, which is part of WP:NPOV. That said, a minority viewpoint held by notable scholars could possibly be included as long as the article makes it clear that the viewpoint is in the minority. Might it be possible route to a consensus? ~ Anachronist ( talk) 06:00, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Some modern Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, estimate that she was over thirteen and must have been 18 or 19 at the time of her marriage.
Androvie ( talk) 11:52, 23 February 2023 (UTC)Some scientists, based on some evidence, found out that the earth is actually flat-shaped.
In response, some Muslims chose to align themselves with the projects of modernization and re-calculated her age—using deft stratagems of omission and commission—to fix it at early adolescence, but conservatives rejected such revisionist readings since they flew in the face of ʻilm al-ḥadīth.
The earth is ellipsoid in shape, but some scientists, based on some evidence, state that it is actually flat-shaped.
Androvie ( talk) 08:46, 24 February 2023 (UTC)While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view, fringe theory, or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity. There are many such beliefs in the world, some popular and some little-known: claims that the Earth is flat, that the Knights Templar possessed the Holy Grail, that the Apollo Moon landings were a hoax, and similar ones. Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world.
References
References
it is a well-known paradox of historical accounts that those which contain errors or inconsistencies are often more reliable than those that are too consistent or coherent, since these instead tend more to imply imposed narrative or subsequent embellishment
References
Androvie ( talk) 10:28, 25 February 2023 (UTC)The critics' arguments were answered by traditionalists by correcting the critics' readings of al-Tabari texts, which should be read as "The four are his children born to his two wives whom we stated in the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic) period". The interpretation is that just because he married his two wives whom during pre-Islamic times, it does not mean that his four children were also born during the pre-Islamic period. This is because al- Tabari (1968) himself narrated that when the Prophet married Aisha, he was six years old (al- Ghufayli 2011).
References
This policy does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content and sources, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards.
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "Aisha's age has become a tool of Islamophobic polemicists to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia" to "Aisha's age has become a tool of polemicists to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia". See the section above #Islamophic polemicist?. The use of the word is not present in the source and also contradicts Wikipedia policy. 117.194.196.192 ( talk) 11:40, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
While Kecia Ali has tries her best to dampen the "hysteria" around child sexual abuse and humanise sex with children a bit, even she doesn't go as far as to call the polemicists against the marriage "Islamophobic", which is quite a loaded term.
From the source: "Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha has become, for contemporary polemicists, evidence of pedophilia not as a medical diagnosis but as an archaic and evil force." No mention of any phobias in the given ranges and surrounding pages either. That insertion would be the bias of Wikipedia editors. It is both against Wikipedia policy and distortion of the source. Please edit it away. 117.194.197.190 ( talk) 22:23, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
− | {{cite book|last1=Barlas|first1=Asma|author1-link=Asma Barlas|title=Believing Women in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur'an|year=2002|publisher=[[University of Texas Press]]|isbn=978-0292709041|title-link=Believing Women in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the | + | {{cite book|last1=Barlas|first1=Asma|author1-link=Asma Barlas|title=Believing Women in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur'an|year=2002|publisher=[[University of Texas Press]]|isbn=978-0292709041|title-link=Believing Women in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur'an |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zTBsYnWp5-wC&dq=ayesha+Believing+Women+in+Islam:+Unreading+Patriarchal+Interpretations+of+the+Qur%27an }} |
Thus moving the URL into the template. This also move the java-script parts of the url into the actual url. Not that it helps much since google no longer allows you to view inside this book. AManWithNoPlan ( talk) 16:33, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
Sir/Madam I Do Not Who You Are But Hazrat Ayesha(PBUH) Was Not 5-6 when he married to Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) when her (PBUH) age was 17-18
Aisha was born 5-6 years before the beginning of revelation. Thus, it appears that the age of Aisha was 17-18 when she got married to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
If You Do Not Believe Me Sir/Madam. Please Look Up The Source I Have Given.
https://questionsonislam.com/article/how-old-was-aisha-ra-when-she-got-married-prophet-muhammad-pbuh — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.157.246.193 ( talk) 18:30, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
Nearly every writer that has questioned Aisha's age has been writing in the last couple decades. It doesn't take a deep analysis to realize that there is strong pressure to interpret Aisha as older. The article should explain this dynamic, rather than trying to say, "Some scholars have said X, others Y". DenverCoder9 ( talk) 21:34, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
"Aisha's age has become a tool of polemicists to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia—not as a diagnostic category but as the highest category of evil"
This just seems a really weird sentance? It seems to be at least veering on bias and is also just a weirdly phrased aside.
Is there any particular reason to have this rather then something like "due to Aisha's age, some observers have accused Muhammad of pedophilia"? 146.198.211.109 ( talk) 01:44, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I suggest changing "In the late-twentieth century and early twenty-first century, Aisha's age has become a tool of polemicists to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia—not as a diagnostic category but as the highest category of evil—and reason for the apparently higher prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies, among other ills." (at the end of the "age at time of marriage" section) to "In the late-twentieth century and early twenty-first century, opponents of Islam have used Aisha's age to accuse Muhammad of pedophilia, as well as explain a reported high prevalence of child marriage in Muslim societies."
This is less biased towards either side, simply explaining what the accusations are, while the current one seems to be clearly pro-islam? It also sounds more clinical I think. Urbenmyth ( talk) 15:07, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
I don’t trust Wikipedia!!! They don’t even check the credible source!!! You should update your information!!! 95.147.21.41 ( talk) 19:33, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia is proving again as usual to be biased and non credible when they purposely only state one viewpoint but not the alternatives. Everyone knows how contentious this topic is for Muslims. This is why the article is deliberately locked out and the young age is being enforced deliberately misguiding the public.
The age of 6-9yrs is only coming from certain Bukhari and his student ‘Muslim’ Hadith’s.
Alternative sources give a very solid example of Aishas age being 16-19 all linked to another wife Asma’s age of 27 at the time.
Why has the article purposely been locked and written as if 6-9yrs was absolute fact?
Most with knowledge about Islam are aware that Hadith are generally inaccurate anyway due to the dubious way they were compiled 200 years after Mohammeds death. Also had Mohammed married Aisha at such a young age he would be defying his own Quran (4:6) which supports marriage at the age of maturity and mutual consent of both partners!
Please change this article and be more truthful. People who are newly researching Islam are being misguided by the article written in a mischievous way to suggest the infant age of marriage was an absolute fact - it isn’t!
Wikipedia is being used as a trusted source and it’s time it was brought under scrutiny. I’m seeing this deliberate mischief for years and moderators need to be fair. EddyJawed ( talk) 17:20, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Aisha, the third wife of prophet Muhammad (SAW) was 18 years when her marriage was consummated not 9. The information on this article is deliberately misleading and wrong. Please help make corrections. Thanks. Anike.sm ( talk) 14:37, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
References
On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.
It has been researched by some Islamic scholars and they've come to the conclusion that, the real age might have been mistakenly changed through the long chain of amendments and updates to the previous books. Considering she was offered in marriage because Prophet Muhammad already had 6 to 7 year old children at home, giving in marriage another 6 year old wouldn't be something even slightly wise to do. Also considering the age of Aeysha's sister was 100 at her death and 77 at hijrat so comparing doesnt bring Ayesha's age to 6 or 9. 72.255.3.181 ( talk) 13:28, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
Copying over a
comment from my user talk page, by an editor who I had
asked to better explain their
deletion of the entire "Role during the third caliphate" section beyond the edit summary Removed false, harmful and biased information. the source is also biased, insensitive, has its own agendas and incorrect.
Regards,
HaeB (
talk)
05:13, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
She’s not the only lady whom he received revelations with. Umm salamah also witnessed him receiving revelations like 33:33 of The Quran or Zainab bint Jahsh with the ayah of the hijab which was revealed in her home on her wedding day. But rather the only person whom he received revelations in bed. As that’s what the hadith states.
She also have said that she had a co wife whom The prophet loved equally and that was Zainab bint Jahsh.
Ibn Abbas reported that the prophet did die in her room but it was in the arms of Ali.
Please make your corrections and give credit when it’s due. 2A04:4A43:588F:BC88:9494:3180:6807:BF1F ( talk) 15:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
change "Aisha being 6 or 7 years old at the time of her marriage" to "Aisha being 18 or 19 years old at the time of her marriage" Abed Mneimneh ( talk) 12:30, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template.
Cannolis (
talk)
17:09, 1 August 2023 (UTC)Hello why can't we edit this article? There is no button for that? 182.183.0.254 ( talk) 05:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Before I start, this request has already been asked before, but the questioner didn't lay any sources. My Request has 4 Chapters, "what to change", "my points", "sources", "a good explanation on why this is and left sources".
change: "change birthdate of aisha to 605/604" ; "Aisha being 6 or 7 years old at the time of her marriage" to "Aisha being 18 or 19 years old at the time of her marriage
Points: 1. If you look at the birth date on asma bint abi bakr she was born 595/594, and aisha was 10 years younger than her so it would make her birth year 605/4.
2. On the "wives of muhammad" it says aishah was married to him from 623-631.
3. 623 - 605/4 = 18/19.
4. would make sense aswell because of some historic events
Sources : Asma being 10 years older than aisha: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Abi_Bakr#:~:text=The%20historians%20Ibn%20Kathir%20and,was%20thirteen%20to%20fifteen%20years.
Marriage was around ~623: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_of_Muhammad
And again a firm explanation for this with sources: https://unity1.store/2021/09/26/the-age-of-aisha-at-marriage/#:~:text=3.1%20Comparing%20Aisha's%20age%20to%20that%20of%20her%20older%20sister%20Asma&text=Thus%3A,the%20time%20of%20the%20Hijrah Owaysmc33 ( talk) 16:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change year of birth from c. 613/614 to 'disputed'.
Add to 'and 9 at the consummation', -->', while some place it at around 18;'
Reference taken from Sahih al-Bukhari hadith 4993 where Aisha recounts being 'a young girl of playing age' when a verse from Surah Al Qamar was revealed in the year 614. Hence that cannot be the year of her birth as put in Wikipedia. [1] Xolta05 ( talk) 01:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
References
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template.
Lewcm
Talk to me!
13:28, 15 December 2023 (UTC)In the “political career” section it notes that after 14 years of marriage Aisha lived a further 50 years before her death. With her age at death given as 63/64 years that would put her age at marriage at either 1 or 0. With my current knowledge I know that that can’t be right but I don’t have the required knowledge to accurately correct it. Given how potentially sensitive this page could be I thought I should raise the question and hope someone with deeper knowledge can address this issue properly.
Thanks Flashburn98 ( talk) 13:45, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia,If aisha(r.a.) was born in 604 A.D. ,then at her marriage in 620 AD ,She should be 16years old ,but u show 6 years old ,how do u count, although it is wrong birth date ,she was born in 594 AD ,so edit it false information 2409:40D2:3F:4A58:8000:0:0:0 ( talk) 03:27, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
One or two domestic events are dated in 623. The most important was the consummation of Muhammad's marriage with 'A'ishah, which took place in April when the bride could only have been about nine.
A few months after the hegira, Muhammad and Abu Bakr decided to bring their families from Mecca. ... Muhammad's wedding to the little girl followed soon afterwards. This is what 'A'isha apparently had to say about it: The Messenger of God married me when I was six years old and the wedding was celebrated when I was nine.
— Kaalakaa (talk) 13:48, 22 November 2023 (UTC)‘A’isha bt. abi Bakr’s marriage to Muhammad dates back to the Meccan period; the contract was concluded when she was a six-year-old child; Muhammad consummated the marriage in Medina when she was nine years old.
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
According to some other more reliable scholars Aisha was 18 years old when they got married. [1] Abi00024 ( talk) 12:17, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
Not done for now: please establish a
consensus for this alteration
before using the
{{
Edit semi-protected}}
template.
PianoDan (
talk)
00:15, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
References
@
StarkReport: Regarding
this recent edit of yours to the article, nowhere in the pages (39–40) provided does Spellberg say anything like "elsewhere it is noted to be twelve or more at marriage".
His analysis there, as well as the consensus of leading secular scholars,
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
[7]
[8]
[9] is that Aisha's age was 6–7 at marriage and 9 at consummation. That's what we should be reporting, not presenting the view of a single dissenting primary source as if it has the same validity as that of the vast majority of primary and reliable
secondary sources. This is also in violation of
WP:FALSEBALANCE. —
Kaalakaa
(talk)
11:19, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
4. ‘A'isha was born four or five years after Muhammad’s prophetic mission began, according to Ibn Sa‘d, Tabaqat, 8:79. However, a slightly later chronicle suggests that ‘A'isha was born in the jahiliyya, the period before the revelation of Islam to Muhammad. If the latter is true, then ‘A'isha’s age at the time of her marriage might have been twelve or thirteen, rather than the usually stated nine given in most early sources. Such a suggestion would also throw off her age at the date of her death. For the contradiction, see al-Tabari, Ta’rikh al-rusul wa al-muluk, 4:2135.
‘Aisha’s married life with the Prophet spanned only twelve years. As recorded, she narrates key aspects of this brief marital chronology: “I was six years old when the Prophet married me and I was nine when he consummated the marriage.
Tabari includes several reports that that the marriage took place when she was six or seven. He once notes that “when he married her she was young, unfit for intercourse.” However, he says nothing about puberty and consistently states that consummation occurred when she was nine.
"elsewhere it is noted to be twelve or more at marriage."— Kaalakaa (talk) 17:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
A preponderance of classical sources converge onin the current revision of the lead seems a bit too strong. It's rather about a majority account versus various minority accounts, in sources which are ever doubtful. I think it would be better to switch to a phrasing that takes account of this, something more like "the majority of sources ... However, ...", as Afsaruddin 2014 does.
— Kaalakaa (talk) 04:45, 31 January 2024 (UTC)أَخْبَرَنَا عَفَّانُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ. أَخْبَرَنَا وُهَيْبٌ. أَخْبَرَنَا هِشَامُ بْنُ عُرْوَةَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ - صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِوسلم - تزوجها وهي ابنة سِتِّ سِنِينَ وَبَنَى بِهَا وَهِيَ ابْنَةُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ
Affan ibn Muslim informed us, Wuhayb informed us, Hisham ibn 'Urwah informed us from his father, from Aisha, that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old."
There are far more WP:Notability things about Aisha(the linked page says already in the nutshell
The notability guideline does not determine the content of articles, but only whether the topic may have its own article).
imperative to provide a comprehensive spectrumin the lead section - to the contrary, per WP:LEDE, it should just
summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight, with a comprehensive treatment left to the article body.
This aligns with the objective with the proposed content inclusion given in the above topic. Regrettably, it is also being completely removed.per WP:LEDE, it should just summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight, with a comprehensive treatment left to the article body
A preponderance of classical sources converge onphrase, please see WP:RS/AC: statements regarding academic consensus must themselves be directly based in a similar statement in an RS. I guess I was just curious what source is using such strong language? It's a bit unusual for scholars to be so confident for the reasons I explained above.
report from Hishām b. ʿUrwa recorded by Ibn Saʿdsupposedly supporting an alternative chronology, Afsaruddin is probably referring to another report on the same page (8:49) of Ibn Saʿd's al-Ṭabaqāt: (my translation, my bolding for easy reference)
أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ حُمَيْدٍ الْعَبْدِيُّ. حَدَّثَنَا مَعْمَرٌ عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ وَهِشَامِ بْنِ عُرْوَةَ قَالا: نَكَحَ النَّبِيُّ - صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وسلم - عائشة وهي ابنة تِسْعِ سَنَوَاتٍ أَوْ سَبْعٍ.
Muhammad ibn Humayd al-Abdi told us, Ma'mar told us on the authority of al-Zuhri and Hisham ibn Urwa, who both said: the prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, married A'isha when she was nine or seven years old.
أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو مُعَاوِيَةَ الضَّرِيرُ. حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشِ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنِ الأَسْوَدِ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ قَالَتْ: تَزَوَّجَهَا رَسُول اللَّهِ - صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ - وَهِيَ بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ وَمَاتَ عَنْهَا وَهِيَ ابْنَةُ ثَمَانِيَ عَشْرَةَ.
Abu Mu'awiya al-Darir tolds us, al-A'mash told us on the authority of Ibrahim on the authority of al-Aswad on the authority of A'isha, who said: [that] the messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, married her when she was a girl of nine years old, and he died when she was eighteen years of age.
تزوجها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بمكة، شرفها الله تعالى، قبل الهجرة بثلاث سنين، وقيل انه تزوجها قبل سودة، زوجه إياها أبوها فأصدقها مثلما أصدق سودة. وكان لها يوم تزوجها ست سنين، وما تزوج بكراً سواها، وقبض صلى الله عليه وسلم وهي بنت ثماني عشرة سنة، وماتت في خلافة معاوية سنة ثمان وخمسين ولها سبع وستون سنة
The messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, married her, may God exalted honor her, in Mecca, three years before the hijra. And it is said that he married her before Sawda. Her father gave her to him in marriage, and he gave her the same dowry that he had given to Sawda. On the day that he married her she was six years old, and he did not marry any virgin apart from her. He died, may God bless him and grant him peace, when she was a girl of eighteen years old. She died during the caliphate of Mu'awiya, in the year fifty eight, when she was sixty seven years old.
according to the chronology of Ibn Khallikān (d. 681/1282) she would have been nine at her marriage and twelve at its consummation (Wafayāt al-aʿyān, 3:16)seems to be pulled out of thin air. This renders her completely unreliable as a source. I already knew that the third edition of Encyclopaedia of Islam is often of lower quality than the hallowed second edition, but this is really disappointing for a work which is still held to be the standard reference work in the field.
References
@ JooneBug37: You added to the article text:
Some modern Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, estimate that she was over thirteen and could have been 18 or 19 at the time of her marriage. [a]
However, out of the four sources you have provided, these two
are clearly not
independent or reliable sources. (See
WP:SOURCE)
Meanwhile, this one:
doesn't talk about any recalculation based on her sister Asma's age at all, but
Aqqad cleverly skirts the authenticated Hadith found in Sahih Bukhari in which Aisha herself reports that she was nine at the time, addressing it only obliquely by suggesting that Aisha was fond of emphasizing her childhood spent in the nascent days of Islam and how young she was during the faith’s formative days. ‘Aqqad thus allows his readers to reconcile their faith in the Prophet’s complete rectitude and even in Islam’s collective historical corpus with what many had come to accept as the ‘natural’ and ideal norms for marriage.
More conservative Muslim scholars objected to this rereading of the Prophet’s life. They sensed the epistemological turnover behind ‘Aqqad’s defense of Islam. Not only did it upturn the hierarchy of authority within the Sunni scriptural canon by ignoring a clear text contained in Bukhari’s august Sahih, it also broke with the Shariah consensus on marriage age. No member of Egypt’s religious establishment showed more displeasure with ‘Aqqad than Ahmad Shakir. In the spring of 1944 he penned a number of popular journal articles excoriating the famous wordsmith’s book on the Prophet’s most active wife.
The only reliable source that supports your addition is the following one:
On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.
However, the author has released a revised edition [5] of the book in which that statement appears to no longer exist, seemingly having been retracted. And on the other hand, Kecia Ali, in her "The Lives of Muhammad" (2014) published by Harvard University Press, p.173, states:
In the late twentieth century, in a renewed climate of criticism of Islam, divergent tendencies emerge in Muslim and non-Muslim sources. Muslim scholars engage in apologetics to justify Aisha’s marriage. The dominant strategy is to contextualize it as historically appropriate to its time and place and to play up, as with the multiple marriages, the politi cal motivations behind it. A less common strategy recalculates Aisha’s age at marriage based on other indicators in the sources.
Added to the fact that the theory departs significantly from a plethora of reliable sources which state that the marriage occured when Aisha was 6 and the consummation when she was 9. [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] These mean your addition is clearly a WP:FRINGE, and thus, its inclusion is WP:UNDUE and creating a WP:FALSEBALANCE. — Kaalakaa (talk) 18:01, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view, fringe theory, or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity. There are many such beliefs in the world, some popular and some little-known: claims that the Earth is flat, that the Knights Templar possessed the Holy Grail, that the Apollo Moon landings were a hoax, and similar ones. Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world.
— Kaalakaa (talk) 16:18, 29 January 2024 (UTC)Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view. Views held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as the flat Earth). Giving undue weight to the view of a significant minority or including that of a tiny minority might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute.
When I wrote "fundamentalists" I did not necessarily means to use the exact verbatim. We can write "dismissed by historians."
as well as Ayatollah Qazvini and Asma Barlas.Some contemporary scholars such as Mawlana Muhammad Farooq Khan (Maqsood 1996), Umar Ahmed Usmani, Hakim Niaz Ahmad, Habib al-Rahman Siddiqui Kandhalvi (Kandhalvi 1997), Jasser Auda (Auda 2018), Salah al-Din al-Idlibi (Mol 2018), and Muslim authors such as Ridhwan Muhammad Saleem (Muhammad Saleem 2008) [21] and Nilofar Ahmed (Ahmed 2012)
Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
An independent source is a source that has no vested interest in a given Wikipedia topic and therefore is commonly expected to cover the topic from a disinterested perspective. Independent sources have editorial independence (advertisers do not dictate content) and no conflicts of interest (there is no potential for personal, financial, or political gain to be made from the existence of the publication).
— Kaalakaa (talk) 09:41, 30 January 2024 (UTC)Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship.
which is exactly the below wording does:"otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context concerning established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world,"
When considering "due impartiality" ... [we are] careful when reporting on science to make a distinction between an opinion and a fact. When there is a consensus of opinion on scientific matters, providing an opposite view without consideration of "due weight" can lead to "false balance"
Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources. ... Surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources; Challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest; ... Claims contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions.... Those things apply here.
References
On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.
Like in Muhammad, I've moved discussion of titles/names into an efn. It isn't notable enough from a historical point of view to be half the first paragraph of a lede. It's like stating that the prefix "His Majesty" is used in the article for King Henry VIII.
This is more a discussion of what she is called rather than who she was. It isn't even an alternate name. DenverCoder19 ( talk) 16:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I have written the Dutch version of this article: https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aïsja
I have a way more accurate and detailed biography with historical sources. I would appreciate if someone with editing privileges would translate the page and copy paste it here. A main difference is the age of Aisha being 15-19 instead of the younger age, this makes more sense considering other chronological events and mathematics 94.157.195.134 ( talk) 12:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)