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User MyMoloboaccount is using Nursing History Review, Volume 12, 2004: Official Publication of the American Association for the History of Nursing as the source that 'Aryan' equaled German and that people had to trace their ancestry to not have any Jewish or Slav ancestry, this is not considered a reliable source, I have reverted it. The Ahnenpass itself as examples mentions two Slav ethnic groups (Czechs and Poles) as examples of Aryans, this refutes this poor uncited source.
see: Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources-- 198.58.112.253 ( talk) 12:09, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
It refers to citizens of other countries, which could be of various ethnic identity. I might also suggest you do not use Junge Freiheit. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 12:11, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
It is not a cited source and is not reliable, period. Junge Freiheit you can remove but the text is also cited in Deutsch: Eine Sprachgeschichte bis 1945 By Christopher J. Wells and in the Meine Neue Enzyklopädie by Jörn Scheer, it is reliable and cited.
Can you identify any other sources that state the Ahnenpass was to prove no Slavic ancestry - despite the fact Slavs were accepted as Aryan and the example of Aryans in the world used both Czechs and Poles as examples, and what are they - Slav.-- 198.58.112.253 ( talk) 12:18, 29 September 2013 (UTC) Slavs weren't accepted as Aryans by Nazis.Dozens of sources confirm this. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 12:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
No they do not. Can you show me any evidence from the Nazis themselves that they viewed Slavs as non-Aryan? I have given MORE than enough sources that show they DID regard them as Aryan. Plenty of scholars also state they were regarded as Aryan. Even the term subhuman, can you show me anywhere the Nazis applied to the Slavs?-- 106.187.53.216 ( talk) 12:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Michael S. Neiberg - 2004 Since Nazi racial ideology denigrated the Poles and Slavs as sub-human.
Dagmar Herzog - 2005 However, they accept the division between "races" ("Aryan," Jewish, Slavic, etc.) as a priori -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 12:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
This is not what this article is about, I said can you show me a source where the Ahnenpass stated one had to prove to have no Slav ancestry?
The "races" has already been discussed, the "Slavic race" was non-existent but the Nazis used to describe it through propaganda against the Slavs. The Nazis knew it was nothing more than a linguistic term. The sub-human concept is also another topic altogether, (even if we take that Slavs were sub-humans), so were the German 'Aryan' Communists that were put into concentration camps in 1933 - this is not what we are here to discuss. Unless you can prove to me through a cited confirmed source that the Ahnenpass stated no Slavic ancestry then I'm sorry but a source from a nursing history review is not going to cut it. You also seem to keep denying the fact Czechs and Poles (both Slav) were seen as examples of Aryans for this document.-- 106.187.53.216 ( talk) 12:55, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
de Gruyter is a well-know reliable publishing house. Re-added paragraph:
Source:
Walter de Gruyter publishing house. Author: Christopher J. Wells
Deutsch: Eine Sprachgeschichte bis 1945. Walter de Gruyter. (1990) p. 447.
ISBN
978-3-11-091484-9.
For the sake of truth -- please do not remove this historical information. Thanks.
Sincerely, 84.187.237.219 ( talk) 19:26, 3 July 2014 (UTC) Yes, Germanic ethnic groups in other countries were eligible for the pass, Poland in particular had a big German minority before the war.It's already mentioned in the article. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:53, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
You're simply wrong on this one - the Germans living in those countries were called Germans by the Nazis, they were not called Czechs, or Poles, which is absolute obvious nonsense if you read articles, documents ... whatever from that time. So this statement from the official document does speak about ethnic Czechs, Poles etc. For the sake of truth please, please simply leave the quotation in the article -- do you fear that the reader might not understand it like you want them to? 84.187.237.219 ( talk) 20:11, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Maybe you don't know that, but the Nazis did not equate Germans and Aryans -- it was called Aryan certificate. And that's why in the Nuremberg laws is was written about "German blood" and "related blood" (German: "artverwandtes Blut"). Sincerely, 84.187.237.219 ( talk) 20:17, 3 July 2014 (UTC) "So this statement from the official document does speak about ethnic Czechs, Poles"-it doesn't. Also as ethnic Poles were considered sub-human non-Aryans it can't apply to them.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:25, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
It's seems to be really hard to clear up that error -- have you heard of Edwin Erich Dwinger? He was a famous writer in Nazi Germany. He was a member of what the Nazis wanted to be the "racial elite". His mother was Russian. Think about that. Have you heard of Victor Tourjansky? He was Russian/Ukrainian -- he made movies in Nazi Germany, he was awared by Goebbels. Think about that. A "subhuman" awared by Goebbels? Lída Baarová was Goebbel's lover. Have you heard about Pola Negri, about Adina Mandlová? Have you heard about Boris Rajewsky? (Russian heritage) Rajewsky even became a member of the Nazi Party. I hope you can see that what you wrote is simply an error. Sincerely, 84.187.237.219 ( talk) 20:47, 3 July 2014 (UTC) Nero made a horse a senator, but it doesn't mean Romans viewed horses as humans.Neither did Nazis view Slavs or Poles as such, even if some people would fly under the radar. As to actors? Like said before, we have dog actors too, and don't see them as human, neither did the Nazis view Polish actors as such. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:54, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Like I said I'm sure this dogma that the Nazis viewed Slavs as "Untermenschen" is an error -- and I have not encountered primary sources with German original wording which do maintain this.
I did read original German sources from that time which maintain that Slavs are Aryan. Himmler e.g. wrote that Russians were an Aryan people in a book published by a Nazi publishing house (published in the 1930s). I'm sure you would remove such a "revisionist" original authentic Nazi source. But I really wonder how you could reconcile this with what you THINK.
84.187.237.219 (
talk) 21:36, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
" Himmler e.g. wrote that Russians were an Aryan people in a book published by a Nazi publishing house" Really? Care to explain in more detail?
--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
06:46, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
The book is called:
"Sammelheft ausgewählter Vorträge und Reden", 1939, Zentralverlag der NSDAP., Franz Eher Nachf., Berlin
84.187.238.55 (
talk)
07:53, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Correction, I double-checked, it's this one:
"Die Schutzstaffel als antibolschewistische Kampforganisation.", München, Zentralverlag der NSDAP, Franz Eher Nachf., (1936).
84.187.238.55 (
talk)
07:59, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
PS Maybe read over this -- the writer Edwin Erich Dwinger, who was famous back then, was a member of Himmler's SS -- and Dwinger's mother was Russian. The Russian Boris Rajewsky was a member of the Nazi party -- and acceptance in both organizations was especially strict -- e.g. the mathematician
Helmut Hasse applied for Nazi party membership -- but the Nazis denied this because he also had Jewish ancestors.
84.187.238.55 (
talk)
08:06, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
PPS I just found the following (it shows you just how strict the Nazis were concerning racial acceptance in their organizations). Here (Heidelberg university)
[1] one can read that the Nazi mathematician Prof. Erhard Tornier denounced
Helmut Hasse of having a Jewish great grandmother.
It's really a shame that the article includes an outright falsification and even gives a link with the (different! and true) German original wording. It's an error or a lie to say (like in this article) "Aryans could be citizens from German minorities living in countries like England, France, Czech Republic or Poland" -- the original says that Aryans might be e.g. "an Englishman or a Swede, a Frenchman or a Czech, or a Pole or an Italian".
How disgusting to not correct this falsehood and mislead those who cannot read the original.
87.182.101.67 (
talk) 22:46, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
PS I'm readding a comment which I made last year and which had been removed -- I just discovered that. I'm disgusted. You are doing a disservice to Wikipedia. You give the Wikipedia a bad name. That's the way dictatorships work -- censorship instead of discussion.
93.224.106.11 (
talk) 13:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
PPS And by the way -- I've never met "English Patriot Man". You might take a look at WHOIS etc. But I doubt that you actually care. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
93.224.106.11 (
talk)
13:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I readded the following source: ... which shows a page from the very document this Wikipedia-article is about. I cannot understand why somebody would remove it. If wished I can provide the translation of the whole page -- which clearly shows, that it DOES try to clarify and explain who is meant by Aryan. If the goal of the Wikipedia is to present truth there is absolutely no reason to remove the original source. If you want to serve lies and falsification the best way is to remove original sources and block those who provide them. But why? WHY? 93.224.106.11 ( talk) 13:35, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I think I'll give it a try and provide the translation of the important part. Maybe there is still hope that you are actually interested in the truth. Here we go:
93.224.106.11 ( talk) 15:06, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
PS The translation crucial section of the original document could of course be added to the article -- for everybody to be able to read the truth. But of course one can also try to hide the truth and not add it and delete the document. But as long as you don't censor the internet one or the other might still find out what the subject of this Wikipedia-article actually says. I'll leave it there. 93.224.106.11 ( talk) 15:18, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
The above fragment says about citizens and it is clearly that speaks about Germans not ethnic Poles. Poland and Czechoslovakia for example had large German minority who were Polish citizens.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 11:49, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Germans in other states (e.g. German Polish citizens) were called "Volksdeutsche" (and not e.g. Poles) by the Nazis and "Auslandsdeutsche" before 1933 (Source: Johann Böhm: Die deutschen Volksgruppen im unabhängigen Staat Kroatien und im serbischen Banat: ihr Verhältnis zum Dritten Reich 1941–1944. Peter Lang, 2012, ISBN 3-63163-323-8, p. 19.) Again a false claim,not supported by source, the term Volksdeutsche was of course in use, but that didn't mean other terms weren't.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:38, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't agree with leaving this huge quotation in the article. We don't normally build our articles using quotations; we use prose that we write ourselves. The point made with the quotation could be succinctly made using a couple sentences of prose. Besides, my reading shows that the Ahnenpass was not issued by the government, but by any of a number of private firms that were paid to do the genealogical research. Therefore there may have been more than one version of the document, and we should not display any one of these as being the official or only version. — Diannaa 🍁 ( talk) 13:51, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Sock of English Patriot Man |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
No, that's correct, you are not 93.224.106.11, but you are
User:88.109.64.25,
User:92.29.153.231, and
User:2.97.224.21, all of whom have edited this article, and all of whom geolocate to the same place you do. Furthermore, all their edits were reverted, and the three IPs blocked, by admin
User:Diannaa as being socks of the indef blocked editor
User:English Patriot Man, who is a prolific sockmaster.
[2] All of your edits will be struck out or reverted as block evasion.
Beyond My Ken (
talk)
04:25, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
|
Funny reading this, big L for the people refusing to back up the ridiculous claim that NSDAP considered Slavs not Aryan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faxspitter ( talk • contribs) 03:55, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
"Opposition clergy helped many racially persecuted individuals by providing them with fake passports as a personal document necessary for survival". What is the source for that claim? Do they actually name any clergymen who did that? Norvo ( talk) 21:45, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
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User MyMoloboaccount is using Nursing History Review, Volume 12, 2004: Official Publication of the American Association for the History of Nursing as the source that 'Aryan' equaled German and that people had to trace their ancestry to not have any Jewish or Slav ancestry, this is not considered a reliable source, I have reverted it. The Ahnenpass itself as examples mentions two Slav ethnic groups (Czechs and Poles) as examples of Aryans, this refutes this poor uncited source.
see: Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources-- 198.58.112.253 ( talk) 12:09, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
It refers to citizens of other countries, which could be of various ethnic identity. I might also suggest you do not use Junge Freiheit. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 12:11, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
It is not a cited source and is not reliable, period. Junge Freiheit you can remove but the text is also cited in Deutsch: Eine Sprachgeschichte bis 1945 By Christopher J. Wells and in the Meine Neue Enzyklopädie by Jörn Scheer, it is reliable and cited.
Can you identify any other sources that state the Ahnenpass was to prove no Slavic ancestry - despite the fact Slavs were accepted as Aryan and the example of Aryans in the world used both Czechs and Poles as examples, and what are they - Slav.-- 198.58.112.253 ( talk) 12:18, 29 September 2013 (UTC) Slavs weren't accepted as Aryans by Nazis.Dozens of sources confirm this. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 12:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
No they do not. Can you show me any evidence from the Nazis themselves that they viewed Slavs as non-Aryan? I have given MORE than enough sources that show they DID regard them as Aryan. Plenty of scholars also state they were regarded as Aryan. Even the term subhuman, can you show me anywhere the Nazis applied to the Slavs?-- 106.187.53.216 ( talk) 12:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Michael S. Neiberg - 2004 Since Nazi racial ideology denigrated the Poles and Slavs as sub-human.
Dagmar Herzog - 2005 However, they accept the division between "races" ("Aryan," Jewish, Slavic, etc.) as a priori -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 12:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
This is not what this article is about, I said can you show me a source where the Ahnenpass stated one had to prove to have no Slav ancestry?
The "races" has already been discussed, the "Slavic race" was non-existent but the Nazis used to describe it through propaganda against the Slavs. The Nazis knew it was nothing more than a linguistic term. The sub-human concept is also another topic altogether, (even if we take that Slavs were sub-humans), so were the German 'Aryan' Communists that were put into concentration camps in 1933 - this is not what we are here to discuss. Unless you can prove to me through a cited confirmed source that the Ahnenpass stated no Slavic ancestry then I'm sorry but a source from a nursing history review is not going to cut it. You also seem to keep denying the fact Czechs and Poles (both Slav) were seen as examples of Aryans for this document.-- 106.187.53.216 ( talk) 12:55, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
de Gruyter is a well-know reliable publishing house. Re-added paragraph:
Source:
Walter de Gruyter publishing house. Author: Christopher J. Wells
Deutsch: Eine Sprachgeschichte bis 1945. Walter de Gruyter. (1990) p. 447.
ISBN
978-3-11-091484-9.
For the sake of truth -- please do not remove this historical information. Thanks.
Sincerely, 84.187.237.219 ( talk) 19:26, 3 July 2014 (UTC) Yes, Germanic ethnic groups in other countries were eligible for the pass, Poland in particular had a big German minority before the war.It's already mentioned in the article. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:53, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
You're simply wrong on this one - the Germans living in those countries were called Germans by the Nazis, they were not called Czechs, or Poles, which is absolute obvious nonsense if you read articles, documents ... whatever from that time. So this statement from the official document does speak about ethnic Czechs, Poles etc. For the sake of truth please, please simply leave the quotation in the article -- do you fear that the reader might not understand it like you want them to? 84.187.237.219 ( talk) 20:11, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Maybe you don't know that, but the Nazis did not equate Germans and Aryans -- it was called Aryan certificate. And that's why in the Nuremberg laws is was written about "German blood" and "related blood" (German: "artverwandtes Blut"). Sincerely, 84.187.237.219 ( talk) 20:17, 3 July 2014 (UTC) "So this statement from the official document does speak about ethnic Czechs, Poles"-it doesn't. Also as ethnic Poles were considered sub-human non-Aryans it can't apply to them.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:25, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
It's seems to be really hard to clear up that error -- have you heard of Edwin Erich Dwinger? He was a famous writer in Nazi Germany. He was a member of what the Nazis wanted to be the "racial elite". His mother was Russian. Think about that. Have you heard of Victor Tourjansky? He was Russian/Ukrainian -- he made movies in Nazi Germany, he was awared by Goebbels. Think about that. A "subhuman" awared by Goebbels? Lída Baarová was Goebbel's lover. Have you heard about Pola Negri, about Adina Mandlová? Have you heard about Boris Rajewsky? (Russian heritage) Rajewsky even became a member of the Nazi Party. I hope you can see that what you wrote is simply an error. Sincerely, 84.187.237.219 ( talk) 20:47, 3 July 2014 (UTC) Nero made a horse a senator, but it doesn't mean Romans viewed horses as humans.Neither did Nazis view Slavs or Poles as such, even if some people would fly under the radar. As to actors? Like said before, we have dog actors too, and don't see them as human, neither did the Nazis view Polish actors as such. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:54, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Like I said I'm sure this dogma that the Nazis viewed Slavs as "Untermenschen" is an error -- and I have not encountered primary sources with German original wording which do maintain this.
I did read original German sources from that time which maintain that Slavs are Aryan. Himmler e.g. wrote that Russians were an Aryan people in a book published by a Nazi publishing house (published in the 1930s). I'm sure you would remove such a "revisionist" original authentic Nazi source. But I really wonder how you could reconcile this with what you THINK.
84.187.237.219 (
talk) 21:36, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
" Himmler e.g. wrote that Russians were an Aryan people in a book published by a Nazi publishing house" Really? Care to explain in more detail?
--
MyMoloboaccount (
talk)
06:46, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
The book is called:
"Sammelheft ausgewählter Vorträge und Reden", 1939, Zentralverlag der NSDAP., Franz Eher Nachf., Berlin
84.187.238.55 (
talk)
07:53, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Correction, I double-checked, it's this one:
"Die Schutzstaffel als antibolschewistische Kampforganisation.", München, Zentralverlag der NSDAP, Franz Eher Nachf., (1936).
84.187.238.55 (
talk)
07:59, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
PS Maybe read over this -- the writer Edwin Erich Dwinger, who was famous back then, was a member of Himmler's SS -- and Dwinger's mother was Russian. The Russian Boris Rajewsky was a member of the Nazi party -- and acceptance in both organizations was especially strict -- e.g. the mathematician
Helmut Hasse applied for Nazi party membership -- but the Nazis denied this because he also had Jewish ancestors.
84.187.238.55 (
talk)
08:06, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
PPS I just found the following (it shows you just how strict the Nazis were concerning racial acceptance in their organizations). Here (Heidelberg university)
[1] one can read that the Nazi mathematician Prof. Erhard Tornier denounced
Helmut Hasse of having a Jewish great grandmother.
It's really a shame that the article includes an outright falsification and even gives a link with the (different! and true) German original wording. It's an error or a lie to say (like in this article) "Aryans could be citizens from German minorities living in countries like England, France, Czech Republic or Poland" -- the original says that Aryans might be e.g. "an Englishman or a Swede, a Frenchman or a Czech, or a Pole or an Italian".
How disgusting to not correct this falsehood and mislead those who cannot read the original.
87.182.101.67 (
talk) 22:46, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
PS I'm readding a comment which I made last year and which had been removed -- I just discovered that. I'm disgusted. You are doing a disservice to Wikipedia. You give the Wikipedia a bad name. That's the way dictatorships work -- censorship instead of discussion.
93.224.106.11 (
talk) 13:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
PPS And by the way -- I've never met "English Patriot Man". You might take a look at WHOIS etc. But I doubt that you actually care. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
93.224.106.11 (
talk)
13:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I readded the following source: ... which shows a page from the very document this Wikipedia-article is about. I cannot understand why somebody would remove it. If wished I can provide the translation of the whole page -- which clearly shows, that it DOES try to clarify and explain who is meant by Aryan. If the goal of the Wikipedia is to present truth there is absolutely no reason to remove the original source. If you want to serve lies and falsification the best way is to remove original sources and block those who provide them. But why? WHY? 93.224.106.11 ( talk) 13:35, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I think I'll give it a try and provide the translation of the important part. Maybe there is still hope that you are actually interested in the truth. Here we go:
93.224.106.11 ( talk) 15:06, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
PS The translation crucial section of the original document could of course be added to the article -- for everybody to be able to read the truth. But of course one can also try to hide the truth and not add it and delete the document. But as long as you don't censor the internet one or the other might still find out what the subject of this Wikipedia-article actually says. I'll leave it there. 93.224.106.11 ( talk) 15:18, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
The above fragment says about citizens and it is clearly that speaks about Germans not ethnic Poles. Poland and Czechoslovakia for example had large German minority who were Polish citizens.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 11:49, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Germans in other states (e.g. German Polish citizens) were called "Volksdeutsche" (and not e.g. Poles) by the Nazis and "Auslandsdeutsche" before 1933 (Source: Johann Böhm: Die deutschen Volksgruppen im unabhängigen Staat Kroatien und im serbischen Banat: ihr Verhältnis zum Dritten Reich 1941–1944. Peter Lang, 2012, ISBN 3-63163-323-8, p. 19.) Again a false claim,not supported by source, the term Volksdeutsche was of course in use, but that didn't mean other terms weren't.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:38, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't agree with leaving this huge quotation in the article. We don't normally build our articles using quotations; we use prose that we write ourselves. The point made with the quotation could be succinctly made using a couple sentences of prose. Besides, my reading shows that the Ahnenpass was not issued by the government, but by any of a number of private firms that were paid to do the genealogical research. Therefore there may have been more than one version of the document, and we should not display any one of these as being the official or only version. — Diannaa 🍁 ( talk) 13:51, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Sock of English Patriot Man |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
No, that's correct, you are not 93.224.106.11, but you are
User:88.109.64.25,
User:92.29.153.231, and
User:2.97.224.21, all of whom have edited this article, and all of whom geolocate to the same place you do. Furthermore, all their edits were reverted, and the three IPs blocked, by admin
User:Diannaa as being socks of the indef blocked editor
User:English Patriot Man, who is a prolific sockmaster.
[2] All of your edits will be struck out or reverted as block evasion.
Beyond My Ken (
talk)
04:25, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
|
Funny reading this, big L for the people refusing to back up the ridiculous claim that NSDAP considered Slavs not Aryan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faxspitter ( talk • contribs) 03:55, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
"Opposition clergy helped many racially persecuted individuals by providing them with fake passports as a personal document necessary for survival". What is the source for that claim? Do they actually name any clergymen who did that? Norvo ( talk) 21:45, 9 September 2019 (UTC)