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There is sufficient evidence to note that he may have been Afar, and this I believe deserves its own section. Franz-Cristoph Muth calls him Somali, but notes that it is not mentioned in Futuh:
It is noted by Ewald Wagner, however, that: "The main population of `Adal may have been of `Afar stock." (Ewald Wagner, "`Adal" in ibid, pp.71.)
It is also noted by Didier Morin as follows:
Pankhurst further notes that Ahmad Gragn may have been Afar himself. I can't find the exact link right now, so give me a little time to find it. Still, do not revert without addressing my comments.
ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Mostly for entertainment purposes, I thought I'd mention that Samuel Gobat, a European missionary who lived in Northern Ethiopia around 1830, stated that the Imam was a "Mohammedan Galla"! While he offers no support for this statement, I can understand how he came to this wildly erroneous opinion -- but do we need this kind of information added to the article just to engage in borderline original research to refute? -- llywrch 20:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The author of futuh al habasha repeatedly distincts the imam from the somalis and at one time he chased them until a day's travel to the sea. Also Ahmad Gurey was distincted from the imam and expressed as the leader if some somali clan so most probably he was not somali. Bin Mulat ( talk) 13:19, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
User:Ragnimo, the references are not reliable, Jamal Shokays book is self published and the other is a travel guide, see WP:RSSELF. Provide an academic source until then it should not be in the article. Magherbin ( talk) 21:44, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
You should assume good faith, seeing as I haven't removed your two unreliable sources yet. A government published document isn't more credible than a internationally reviewed travel guide published by Bradt Travel Guides, so that source definitely will be reinstated. The credibility of your other source is also put into question as a viable reference for a historic figure's birthplace as it can't even get his biography right, and goes against both contemporary and modern scholarship. That no one has added that incorrect claim to the article is irrelevant, same way any source that claims Alexander The Great was born in Athens but at the same time claims he was brought up as a painter shouldn't be taken seriously as a reliable source on Wikipedia. Regardless of this, there are academic sources to corroborate Phillip Briggs' book about Ahmad's Zeila origins:
Its therefore not an 'unsourced' claim, and I will be re-inserting his Zeila origins with the above references. -- GoldenDragonHorn ( talk) 08:52, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
User:Magherbin Sorry i didn't even look at that other source provided for Zeila i just copied and pasted someone elses previous edit and moved it to the other section without giving it much thought. Ahmad thought as being born in Zeila is an academic view and there are different reliable source provided for that on the page. Hubat is most likely modern day Babille territory, like how the old capital of Dakar was actually Aw Barkhadle . The names of certain locations changes over time. But both locations have been added for neutral point of view.
User:GoldenDragonHorn pretty much summed it up well. Follow the guidelines WP:MAINSTREAM and also sources containing fringe theories are not allowed either WP:FRINGE such as adding sources that claims he is brought up as slave.
Cheers Ragnimo ( talk) 09:09, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
GoldenDragonHorn and Ragnimo: The subjects background is not clear instead of pushing Somali POV which you two have been doing on various articles, it needs to be removed from the introduction otherwise this article is not neutral. If we were sure of his ethnicity, it wouldnt have an ethnicity section in the first place. Recent publications attempt to lean towards his Balaw origin. Case in point [3] [4]. Magherbin ( talk) 20:26, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
Magherbin The subjects ethnic background is discussed in the ethnic section, what's put in the lead is what is scholarly consensus that most scholars regard him as an ethnic Somali. It's a Mainstream POV WP:MAINSTREAM not a Somali one.
In the standard Ethiopian historiography,. Imam Ahmad is presented as a Somali. [5]
That one publication you linked is just another scholar's opinion that was included into the ethnic section for neutrality. Even in that publication it gives out that most scholars regard Imam Ahmad as a Somali and even in mainstream encyclopedias. And for good reasons in my opinion.
For example one in particular a popular Well Known Ethiopian Historian "TekleSadik Mekuria" was mentioned in that publication did an unbiased field research, drew from Arab Faqih chronicles , chronicles of Sarsa-Dengel and Traditions in Harrar and concluded Imam Ahmads genealogy is covered in the Hawiye Karanle Balow sub clan in Harrar region. That publication deceptively leaves out that information of how he arrived at that conclusion from the fact that they hold a tradition of 8 generations before him [6] , i was planning to add that to the page later on. The whole Balaw Beja claim started with a false assumption made by Braukämper who in his own admission said:
Whereas the Balaw remained as an ethnic subgroup among the Eritrean Bedja, they are hardly traceable in Hararge. [7]
He is linking it to a group that had no significant prescense or history in that area at all and neglecting that Balow was a refrence to a Hawiye clan in that region in Hararghe who still lives there. There is no tradition , proof or any evidence of Bedja Balaw having any ties to either Adal or the Imam. And Imam Ahmad was Harla from his maternal side according to Ethiopian chronicles as well.
Furthermore there other publications that are more recent than the ones you presented like this one on the history of Harrar affirming the scholarly consensus of him being regarded as a Somali [8]
Hope this clarifies it. Cheers Ragnimo ( talk) 23:52, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
Ulrich doesn't point out anything about Oromo migration replacing them. But only that their ethnic substance in that regions is hardly traceable. His linkeage is based on name similarities and says the name only survived in a clan in Nole Oromo country. That clan he is speaking of is Karanle Hawiye that lives next to the Nole Oromo at Babile and they have nothing to do with Bedja from Tigray. Famous Ethiopian Scholar Mekuria explored this and investigated the traditions in Harar:
The well-known Ethiopian Historian Takla Sadiq Makuria has devoted a short chapter [1973-74) to the question of origin of the Gragn and the identity of the malasay in his rough monograph on the Gragn Wars (1973/19749. In it he draws on the evidence from Arab Faiqh of the Short Chronicle and the Chronicle of Sarsa-Dengel Takla was also able to draw on the oral tradition of Harar. Through mediation of Dagazmac Wargnah he interviewed Ahmad Ali Sami, a traditional scholar in Harar. This indicates that Gran's father comes from the Hawiya(Somali tribe) in the Ogaden; a genealogy of eight generations before Gran is known in this tradtion. [10]
You say Hinka discussed it in depth but they all left this out and mentioned Takla in the mere passing.
Mohamed Hassan believes he is Harla and that's his opinion. He is not wrong persay as he was connected to the Harla through his maternal side. Also Harlas ethnicity is disputed with modern traditions likewise associating it with Darood. Pockets of Harla in the exact area wehre they lived have been found to maintain a Darood lineage but speak a dialect similar to the lower caste Somalis . Harla_people#Language. So that doesn't even exclude them from being Somali. Somalis also didnt' assimilate them into the Darod because Harla Afaris have also retained their darood lineage which is shown in that second link you shared and has a historical document collaborating it.
Wont go into the naming sequence debate but i disagree with I'M Lewis although he also believes Imam Ahmad is Somali i believe he made that conflation then ascribes it to Somalis. Geri/Girri & Gurey are two different names. Not going to go into why, but even if that was true it doesn't eliminate the possibility of both being Somali. Futah just neglects to mention anything about his background, makes no ethnic distinctions between him or other Somalis. All Hinka does is provide an Argument_from_silence and that's a total fallacy.
In any case the scholarly consensus is that he is Somali and that justifies adding that on to the lead. Any alternative scholarly opinion is added to the ethnicity section.
Cheers Ragnimo ( talk) 13:39, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Not one not even myself have even claimed Berbers in North Africa were Somalis. You made the mistake of conflating the term "berber" being used. It has a modern meaning and a past meaning which is seperate, it was just an ancient greek word for "foreigner" and was applied to any non-greeker speaker and then it was carried on to be used by muslim medieval writers familiar with greek geography, it did not denote an ethnicity like it's being applied to North Africans today. Berbers in North Africa and the Berbers described in the Horn are two seperate people that had nothing to do with eachother. So that's your own misunderstanding.
Furthermore Darood is a Somali clan, Harla don't just claim Darod but Somali Ogaden sub clans in it Koombe, Kablah, Kumade, along with the Marahen, Harti, Geri etc. I mean it literally shown in the 2nd link you refrenced that list their genealogy.
Eritrean Balaw Bedja never existed in that area, there is no proof for that or traces left to prove that , either in language, culture, genealogy etc Braukamper even admits that. What did exist was a Hawiye clan with that name Balow and still continue to exist in that area and they have the genealogy of Imam Ahmad can list his forefathers and their descendants. Same goes for Harla, there is no real proof of them being seperate ethnic group and or even close to Modern Hararis even Braukamper admits linguistic evidence is lacking. All you have is assertions being made.
Anyways, i only spoke at lenght to clarify against some of the stuff you said, making the point that the few differing opinions don't exclude the possibility of him being Somali and the evidence supporting it.
As someone else pointed out in a different talk page discussion above: "The lede in the Holocaust article says it is an historical fact, but some don't agree with that, so there are paragraphs containing the view of the "non-believers" in the Holocaust. So if the mainstream scholars accept his ethnicity, it is added in the lede, but an encyclopedia paves the way for other views, just to remove it for a singlular type of source...well, that is what we call an "undue weight"
Likewise it would be non-neutral to remove the lede just because a minority disagrees or have a differing view. Read WP:WEIGHT again.
Ragnimo ( talk) 11:49, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
I can't add what's not in the source i refrenced and not relevant to the page. Read it for yourself [15]. I only translated what was in it from German ,it didn't mention any of what your saying. If it mentioned his mom being Harla i would add it with no problem. The Balaw view is included and it's a tiny minority opinion and it was mentioned in the ethnic section. There is no multiple academic sources mentioning it and if we go by WP:WEIGHT i'm not even sure if it even should be added to the page at all . As it says "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not"
What's not neutral POV is giving undue weight to a minority POV above the majority POV and want to remove the lead for it. Because Imam Ahmad being regarded as a Somali should be in the lead because thats a consensus POV WP:MAINSTREAM " This is why Wikipedia gives the most space and prominence to descriptions of a subject that conform to the expert understanding while marginalizing in space and prominence the minority understanding, or even excluding some descriptions or issues that cannot be reliably sourced. To do otherwise would create an encyclopedia that experts would not accept as being of the highest quality"
And read WP:CREATELEAD
"Just as with an article, a lead must adhere to neutral point of view (NPOV), which does not mean "neutral", or that there should be a false balance between opposing POV. All opinions are not equal"
"The mainstream view should get the most weight, so the due weight of the article should read in favor of the mainstream view."
Cheers
Ragnimo ( talk) 20:49, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
This is what the text says:
"Through the mediation of Daggazmac Warqnah, he interviewed Ahmad Ali Sami a traditional scholar in Harar. This gives an origin for the father of Gran from the Hawiya (Somali tribe) in the Ogaden; a genealogy of eight generations before Gran is known in this lore. The malasay are said to have belonged to the Harla descent and were originally from the Indian Ocean. In the course of history they had mixed up with the Somali, Adal people and Somali in the land of Harar and lost their identity. Interesting is the close relationship to the Somali, which this oral tradition also emphasizes
You tried to mis-translate the text on purpose to fit an angle and there is full stop cut off between Gran is known in this lore and the next sentence about Malasay. It doesn't say anything about them losing their identity to Somalis, and it's more about their close relationship to Somali if anything. Also says they came from the Indian ocean originally and then mixed in with the people there. Secondly i ommitted the part about Malasay because it has nothing do with his ethnicity or relevancy to the page and the part about him being maternally harla is not mentioned in the text either. So i can't add that even if i wanted to.
You are persistent in making this into a long ethnic debate. It has less to do with me pushing a Somali POV more to do with your own nationalism removing sourced Somali personalities from article and giving undue weight to a minority opinion. The wikipedia guidelines are very clear the Mainstream POV is put in the lead while the minority POV is either not included into the page or marginalized.
The consensus POV among scholars is that Imam Ahmad is Somali and therefore it should be remain on lead.
In the standard Ethiopian historiography,. Imam Ahmad is presented as a Somali. [18]
Same goes for the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica who also mention him as a Somali, its a mainstream POV. There is nothing to debate here.
Neutral POV does not mean "Neutral". Read Wikipedia:How_to_create_and_manage_a_good_lead_section#NPOV,_neutrality,_and_false_balance
"NPOV does not mean "neutral" or neutered content, nor does it mean that there should be a false balance between opposing POV. All opinions are not equal."
"The mainstream view should get the most weight, so the due weight of the article should read in favor of the mainstream view."
Ragnimo ( talk) 09:25, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
How does Ethiopian historians not consider him Somali? When the source above states that he is presented as a Somali in standard Ethiopian histography. I have added like 8 different sources from different scholars all giving the view that he is Somali. I'M Lewis, Huntingford who translated Futah etc . This is the mainstream view. Even the Famous Ethiopian historian Tekle Merkuria shares this view after he did his investigations in Harar and the information he obtained from Harari traditional Scholar Ahmed As-Sami.
Several reasons are given even on the page for why he is widely considered Somali. He was not only close in relationship to Somalis like companions, several of his family members were married to Somalis and were Somali. His sister Fardowsa married to his general Mattan Al-Somaal, His aunt had a Son Muhammad bin Ali, who was Sultan of the Somali clan of Zerba, He recruited mainly from amongst Somalis as well etc .
All of the major cities associated with Awdal civilization from Dakkar, to Zeila, Abasa, Amoud , and the ruin towns in Ogaden etc and where he was born etc are in Somali inhabited territories.
Hence:
Of the early history of the Imam Ahmad but little is known. He was the son of one Ibrahim el Ghazi, and both he and his father were common soldiers in the troop of Garad Aboun. Nothing even is said as to his nationality. He was certainly not an Arab : probably he was a Somali, for we find him closely connected with many who were Somalis
Explanation like he was not mentioned as a "Soomaal" makes no sense considering at the time , that was an occupational identity worn by Somalis who were nomadic and not an ethnic name, whereas Somalis who were primarly sedentary, urbanites and agriculturalist werent called that. Soomaal only became an ethnic name after the fall of Adal, when the Somalis shifted their lifestyle to mainly pastorialism. You can see this fact explained by archeological research as well:
"But other fatal problems in the form of famines epidemics and the Oromo (Galla) invasion appeared on the horizon. In the end we have a social pattern very different from what we have before the the sixteetnh century upheavals. 'Since all other modes of life were brought to end, pastorialism became the pre-dominant one. As a result, the name, Somali, which was only an occupational name prior to Jihad, evolved into an ethnic name'"
In the same way early Sedentary Arabs referred to Bendouins(nomads) as "A'raabs" even though they themselves were Arab ethnically/racially:
Muslims of Medina referred to the nomadic tribes of the deserts as the A'raab, and considered themselves sedentary, but were aware of their close racial bonds. The plural noun ʾaʿrāb refers to the Bedouin tribes of the desert who resisted Muhammad, for example in at-Tawba 97,
[ [22]]
Same goes for Somalis, some were sedentary urbanists ,farmers and some were nomadic. If distinctions were made they were occupational not Ethnic.
Furthermore Arab Faqih mentions almost nothing about his background, clan or otherwise. He just gives vague unexplained impressions throughout the book, so historians have to connect the dots themselves. Ragnimo ( talk) 05:40, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
The board has been archived so i decided to respond here. I didn't dissapear, we both was blocked and i decided to take a break, which i will do from time to time. Wikipedia isn't my job. Like i keep repeating it's a mainstream POV : And 9 different citations from different scholars sharing this view is cited behind this sentence:
Imam Ahmad is regarded by most scholars as an ethnic Somali. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]
Heck even Huntingford says: [23]
Ahmad Graň was , it has been said , a Somali , ' and his headquarters were on the edge of the Somali country
I could add several more citations that basically echo the same thing that this is a mainstream POV Ragnimo ( talk) 13:27, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
References
Should the articles lede state his ethnic background, yes or no? Magherbin ( talk) 07:04, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
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Ahmed gurey didn’t belong to the Abadir dynasty, since his brother Umar Ad Din belong to The Walashma dynasty according to J. Spencer Trimingham, Islam in Ethiopia (Oxford: Geoffrey Cumberlege for the University Press, 1952), p. 86. Monarer ( talk) 08:08, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Monarer: Spencer Trimingham 1952, p. 86 may be a bit ambiguous, but when one looks at other sources (especially Tamrat, Taddesse (1977). "Ethiopia, the Red Sea and the Horn". In Oliver, Roland (ed.). The Cambridge History of Africa. Volume 3: from c. 1050 to c. 1600. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 98–182. ISBN 978-0-521-20981-6. p. 169) it is quite clear that Umar Din was a brother of sultan Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad rather than of Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrahim (I've updated the relevant articles accordingly).
However, our current mention of the Abadir dynasty appear to be entirely unsourced. @ Magherbin: since you appear to be the editor who added the mention of the Abadir dynasty to the infobox, can you cite us a reliable source for that (I've added a {{ citation needed}} template in the mean time)? Thanks! ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 15:59, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
@
Magherbin: I wrote: A
MA thesis is generally not a
reliable source, which turns out to be quite true in this case: Wondimu's reference for this is "The Harari Culture,Heritage and Tourism Bureau, p.239"; we will need something better for this, preferably a widely respected academic scholar.
Your reply: Get consensus
.
[24]
Really? I was assuming you picked up this ref ( [25]) somewhere without verifying it. But are you really telling us that you consider that MA thesis, or a tourist bureau, a reliable source? Should we really go bother the poor people at WP:RSN with this? ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 17:45, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
he was a pure somali , and he belonged to the Mahmed case clans Gadabuursi, a tribe that inhibits zaila since the 13th century, there are no other ethnicity that inhibits zaila till this day.the tribe that sultan sa'ed diin colonized and oppressed, and its the main reason why imaam ahmed gurey declared a war against him, and later on took his throne. It's the Tribe that gave the land , where masjid Qiblaten was built. So i am suggesting that you need to do more research on zaila and the adal empire. It's a clear infringement of the rights of this tribes , when you are saying he was not somali. Deeq rooble wacays ( talk) 21:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
He is harari 196.191.49.77 ( talk) 07:08, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
If it is largely accepted that he is of Somali ethnicity with minor disputes, why does the detail for early life frame it as if it's equally disputed and puts Harari first? Somali should be listed first with the detail for scholar acceptance of ethnicity being a majority. This seems biased given the countless sources people thow at contrarians. Togawa11 ( talk) 09:33, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
It states in the article that Ahmed ordered infrastructure to be destroyed however there was a reason for this, the Church specifically was used as a military garrison by the Ethiopians. Perhaps someone can find sources on that as Islamic law forbids destruction of buildings for no apparent reason. Magherbin ( talk) 14:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
There is sufficient evidence to note that he may have been Afar, and this I believe deserves its own section. Franz-Cristoph Muth calls him Somali, but notes that it is not mentioned in Futuh:
It is noted by Ewald Wagner, however, that: "The main population of `Adal may have been of `Afar stock." (Ewald Wagner, "`Adal" in ibid, pp.71.)
It is also noted by Didier Morin as follows:
Pankhurst further notes that Ahmad Gragn may have been Afar himself. I can't find the exact link right now, so give me a little time to find it. Still, do not revert without addressing my comments.
ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Mostly for entertainment purposes, I thought I'd mention that Samuel Gobat, a European missionary who lived in Northern Ethiopia around 1830, stated that the Imam was a "Mohammedan Galla"! While he offers no support for this statement, I can understand how he came to this wildly erroneous opinion -- but do we need this kind of information added to the article just to engage in borderline original research to refute? -- llywrch 20:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The author of futuh al habasha repeatedly distincts the imam from the somalis and at one time he chased them until a day's travel to the sea. Also Ahmad Gurey was distincted from the imam and expressed as the leader if some somali clan so most probably he was not somali. Bin Mulat ( talk) 13:19, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
User:Ragnimo, the references are not reliable, Jamal Shokays book is self published and the other is a travel guide, see WP:RSSELF. Provide an academic source until then it should not be in the article. Magherbin ( talk) 21:44, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
You should assume good faith, seeing as I haven't removed your two unreliable sources yet. A government published document isn't more credible than a internationally reviewed travel guide published by Bradt Travel Guides, so that source definitely will be reinstated. The credibility of your other source is also put into question as a viable reference for a historic figure's birthplace as it can't even get his biography right, and goes against both contemporary and modern scholarship. That no one has added that incorrect claim to the article is irrelevant, same way any source that claims Alexander The Great was born in Athens but at the same time claims he was brought up as a painter shouldn't be taken seriously as a reliable source on Wikipedia. Regardless of this, there are academic sources to corroborate Phillip Briggs' book about Ahmad's Zeila origins:
Its therefore not an 'unsourced' claim, and I will be re-inserting his Zeila origins with the above references. -- GoldenDragonHorn ( talk) 08:52, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
User:Magherbin Sorry i didn't even look at that other source provided for Zeila i just copied and pasted someone elses previous edit and moved it to the other section without giving it much thought. Ahmad thought as being born in Zeila is an academic view and there are different reliable source provided for that on the page. Hubat is most likely modern day Babille territory, like how the old capital of Dakar was actually Aw Barkhadle . The names of certain locations changes over time. But both locations have been added for neutral point of view.
User:GoldenDragonHorn pretty much summed it up well. Follow the guidelines WP:MAINSTREAM and also sources containing fringe theories are not allowed either WP:FRINGE such as adding sources that claims he is brought up as slave.
Cheers Ragnimo ( talk) 09:09, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
GoldenDragonHorn and Ragnimo: The subjects background is not clear instead of pushing Somali POV which you two have been doing on various articles, it needs to be removed from the introduction otherwise this article is not neutral. If we were sure of his ethnicity, it wouldnt have an ethnicity section in the first place. Recent publications attempt to lean towards his Balaw origin. Case in point [3] [4]. Magherbin ( talk) 20:26, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
Magherbin The subjects ethnic background is discussed in the ethnic section, what's put in the lead is what is scholarly consensus that most scholars regard him as an ethnic Somali. It's a Mainstream POV WP:MAINSTREAM not a Somali one.
In the standard Ethiopian historiography,. Imam Ahmad is presented as a Somali. [5]
That one publication you linked is just another scholar's opinion that was included into the ethnic section for neutrality. Even in that publication it gives out that most scholars regard Imam Ahmad as a Somali and even in mainstream encyclopedias. And for good reasons in my opinion.
For example one in particular a popular Well Known Ethiopian Historian "TekleSadik Mekuria" was mentioned in that publication did an unbiased field research, drew from Arab Faqih chronicles , chronicles of Sarsa-Dengel and Traditions in Harrar and concluded Imam Ahmads genealogy is covered in the Hawiye Karanle Balow sub clan in Harrar region. That publication deceptively leaves out that information of how he arrived at that conclusion from the fact that they hold a tradition of 8 generations before him [6] , i was planning to add that to the page later on. The whole Balaw Beja claim started with a false assumption made by Braukämper who in his own admission said:
Whereas the Balaw remained as an ethnic subgroup among the Eritrean Bedja, they are hardly traceable in Hararge. [7]
He is linking it to a group that had no significant prescense or history in that area at all and neglecting that Balow was a refrence to a Hawiye clan in that region in Hararghe who still lives there. There is no tradition , proof or any evidence of Bedja Balaw having any ties to either Adal or the Imam. And Imam Ahmad was Harla from his maternal side according to Ethiopian chronicles as well.
Furthermore there other publications that are more recent than the ones you presented like this one on the history of Harrar affirming the scholarly consensus of him being regarded as a Somali [8]
Hope this clarifies it. Cheers Ragnimo ( talk) 23:52, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
Ulrich doesn't point out anything about Oromo migration replacing them. But only that their ethnic substance in that regions is hardly traceable. His linkeage is based on name similarities and says the name only survived in a clan in Nole Oromo country. That clan he is speaking of is Karanle Hawiye that lives next to the Nole Oromo at Babile and they have nothing to do with Bedja from Tigray. Famous Ethiopian Scholar Mekuria explored this and investigated the traditions in Harar:
The well-known Ethiopian Historian Takla Sadiq Makuria has devoted a short chapter [1973-74) to the question of origin of the Gragn and the identity of the malasay in his rough monograph on the Gragn Wars (1973/19749. In it he draws on the evidence from Arab Faiqh of the Short Chronicle and the Chronicle of Sarsa-Dengel Takla was also able to draw on the oral tradition of Harar. Through mediation of Dagazmac Wargnah he interviewed Ahmad Ali Sami, a traditional scholar in Harar. This indicates that Gran's father comes from the Hawiya(Somali tribe) in the Ogaden; a genealogy of eight generations before Gran is known in this tradtion. [10]
You say Hinka discussed it in depth but they all left this out and mentioned Takla in the mere passing.
Mohamed Hassan believes he is Harla and that's his opinion. He is not wrong persay as he was connected to the Harla through his maternal side. Also Harlas ethnicity is disputed with modern traditions likewise associating it with Darood. Pockets of Harla in the exact area wehre they lived have been found to maintain a Darood lineage but speak a dialect similar to the lower caste Somalis . Harla_people#Language. So that doesn't even exclude them from being Somali. Somalis also didnt' assimilate them into the Darod because Harla Afaris have also retained their darood lineage which is shown in that second link you shared and has a historical document collaborating it.
Wont go into the naming sequence debate but i disagree with I'M Lewis although he also believes Imam Ahmad is Somali i believe he made that conflation then ascribes it to Somalis. Geri/Girri & Gurey are two different names. Not going to go into why, but even if that was true it doesn't eliminate the possibility of both being Somali. Futah just neglects to mention anything about his background, makes no ethnic distinctions between him or other Somalis. All Hinka does is provide an Argument_from_silence and that's a total fallacy.
In any case the scholarly consensus is that he is Somali and that justifies adding that on to the lead. Any alternative scholarly opinion is added to the ethnicity section.
Cheers Ragnimo ( talk) 13:39, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Not one not even myself have even claimed Berbers in North Africa were Somalis. You made the mistake of conflating the term "berber" being used. It has a modern meaning and a past meaning which is seperate, it was just an ancient greek word for "foreigner" and was applied to any non-greeker speaker and then it was carried on to be used by muslim medieval writers familiar with greek geography, it did not denote an ethnicity like it's being applied to North Africans today. Berbers in North Africa and the Berbers described in the Horn are two seperate people that had nothing to do with eachother. So that's your own misunderstanding.
Furthermore Darood is a Somali clan, Harla don't just claim Darod but Somali Ogaden sub clans in it Koombe, Kablah, Kumade, along with the Marahen, Harti, Geri etc. I mean it literally shown in the 2nd link you refrenced that list their genealogy.
Eritrean Balaw Bedja never existed in that area, there is no proof for that or traces left to prove that , either in language, culture, genealogy etc Braukamper even admits that. What did exist was a Hawiye clan with that name Balow and still continue to exist in that area and they have the genealogy of Imam Ahmad can list his forefathers and their descendants. Same goes for Harla, there is no real proof of them being seperate ethnic group and or even close to Modern Hararis even Braukamper admits linguistic evidence is lacking. All you have is assertions being made.
Anyways, i only spoke at lenght to clarify against some of the stuff you said, making the point that the few differing opinions don't exclude the possibility of him being Somali and the evidence supporting it.
As someone else pointed out in a different talk page discussion above: "The lede in the Holocaust article says it is an historical fact, but some don't agree with that, so there are paragraphs containing the view of the "non-believers" in the Holocaust. So if the mainstream scholars accept his ethnicity, it is added in the lede, but an encyclopedia paves the way for other views, just to remove it for a singlular type of source...well, that is what we call an "undue weight"
Likewise it would be non-neutral to remove the lede just because a minority disagrees or have a differing view. Read WP:WEIGHT again.
Ragnimo ( talk) 11:49, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
I can't add what's not in the source i refrenced and not relevant to the page. Read it for yourself [15]. I only translated what was in it from German ,it didn't mention any of what your saying. If it mentioned his mom being Harla i would add it with no problem. The Balaw view is included and it's a tiny minority opinion and it was mentioned in the ethnic section. There is no multiple academic sources mentioning it and if we go by WP:WEIGHT i'm not even sure if it even should be added to the page at all . As it says "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not"
What's not neutral POV is giving undue weight to a minority POV above the majority POV and want to remove the lead for it. Because Imam Ahmad being regarded as a Somali should be in the lead because thats a consensus POV WP:MAINSTREAM " This is why Wikipedia gives the most space and prominence to descriptions of a subject that conform to the expert understanding while marginalizing in space and prominence the minority understanding, or even excluding some descriptions or issues that cannot be reliably sourced. To do otherwise would create an encyclopedia that experts would not accept as being of the highest quality"
And read WP:CREATELEAD
"Just as with an article, a lead must adhere to neutral point of view (NPOV), which does not mean "neutral", or that there should be a false balance between opposing POV. All opinions are not equal"
"The mainstream view should get the most weight, so the due weight of the article should read in favor of the mainstream view."
Cheers
Ragnimo ( talk) 20:49, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
This is what the text says:
"Through the mediation of Daggazmac Warqnah, he interviewed Ahmad Ali Sami a traditional scholar in Harar. This gives an origin for the father of Gran from the Hawiya (Somali tribe) in the Ogaden; a genealogy of eight generations before Gran is known in this lore. The malasay are said to have belonged to the Harla descent and were originally from the Indian Ocean. In the course of history they had mixed up with the Somali, Adal people and Somali in the land of Harar and lost their identity. Interesting is the close relationship to the Somali, which this oral tradition also emphasizes
You tried to mis-translate the text on purpose to fit an angle and there is full stop cut off between Gran is known in this lore and the next sentence about Malasay. It doesn't say anything about them losing their identity to Somalis, and it's more about their close relationship to Somali if anything. Also says they came from the Indian ocean originally and then mixed in with the people there. Secondly i ommitted the part about Malasay because it has nothing do with his ethnicity or relevancy to the page and the part about him being maternally harla is not mentioned in the text either. So i can't add that even if i wanted to.
You are persistent in making this into a long ethnic debate. It has less to do with me pushing a Somali POV more to do with your own nationalism removing sourced Somali personalities from article and giving undue weight to a minority opinion. The wikipedia guidelines are very clear the Mainstream POV is put in the lead while the minority POV is either not included into the page or marginalized.
The consensus POV among scholars is that Imam Ahmad is Somali and therefore it should be remain on lead.
In the standard Ethiopian historiography,. Imam Ahmad is presented as a Somali. [18]
Same goes for the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica who also mention him as a Somali, its a mainstream POV. There is nothing to debate here.
Neutral POV does not mean "Neutral". Read Wikipedia:How_to_create_and_manage_a_good_lead_section#NPOV,_neutrality,_and_false_balance
"NPOV does not mean "neutral" or neutered content, nor does it mean that there should be a false balance between opposing POV. All opinions are not equal."
"The mainstream view should get the most weight, so the due weight of the article should read in favor of the mainstream view."
Ragnimo ( talk) 09:25, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
How does Ethiopian historians not consider him Somali? When the source above states that he is presented as a Somali in standard Ethiopian histography. I have added like 8 different sources from different scholars all giving the view that he is Somali. I'M Lewis, Huntingford who translated Futah etc . This is the mainstream view. Even the Famous Ethiopian historian Tekle Merkuria shares this view after he did his investigations in Harar and the information he obtained from Harari traditional Scholar Ahmed As-Sami.
Several reasons are given even on the page for why he is widely considered Somali. He was not only close in relationship to Somalis like companions, several of his family members were married to Somalis and were Somali. His sister Fardowsa married to his general Mattan Al-Somaal, His aunt had a Son Muhammad bin Ali, who was Sultan of the Somali clan of Zerba, He recruited mainly from amongst Somalis as well etc .
All of the major cities associated with Awdal civilization from Dakkar, to Zeila, Abasa, Amoud , and the ruin towns in Ogaden etc and where he was born etc are in Somali inhabited territories.
Hence:
Of the early history of the Imam Ahmad but little is known. He was the son of one Ibrahim el Ghazi, and both he and his father were common soldiers in the troop of Garad Aboun. Nothing even is said as to his nationality. He was certainly not an Arab : probably he was a Somali, for we find him closely connected with many who were Somalis
Explanation like he was not mentioned as a "Soomaal" makes no sense considering at the time , that was an occupational identity worn by Somalis who were nomadic and not an ethnic name, whereas Somalis who were primarly sedentary, urbanites and agriculturalist werent called that. Soomaal only became an ethnic name after the fall of Adal, when the Somalis shifted their lifestyle to mainly pastorialism. You can see this fact explained by archeological research as well:
"But other fatal problems in the form of famines epidemics and the Oromo (Galla) invasion appeared on the horizon. In the end we have a social pattern very different from what we have before the the sixteetnh century upheavals. 'Since all other modes of life were brought to end, pastorialism became the pre-dominant one. As a result, the name, Somali, which was only an occupational name prior to Jihad, evolved into an ethnic name'"
In the same way early Sedentary Arabs referred to Bendouins(nomads) as "A'raabs" even though they themselves were Arab ethnically/racially:
Muslims of Medina referred to the nomadic tribes of the deserts as the A'raab, and considered themselves sedentary, but were aware of their close racial bonds. The plural noun ʾaʿrāb refers to the Bedouin tribes of the desert who resisted Muhammad, for example in at-Tawba 97,
[ [22]]
Same goes for Somalis, some were sedentary urbanists ,farmers and some were nomadic. If distinctions were made they were occupational not Ethnic.
Furthermore Arab Faqih mentions almost nothing about his background, clan or otherwise. He just gives vague unexplained impressions throughout the book, so historians have to connect the dots themselves. Ragnimo ( talk) 05:40, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
The board has been archived so i decided to respond here. I didn't dissapear, we both was blocked and i decided to take a break, which i will do from time to time. Wikipedia isn't my job. Like i keep repeating it's a mainstream POV : And 9 different citations from different scholars sharing this view is cited behind this sentence:
Imam Ahmad is regarded by most scholars as an ethnic Somali. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]
Heck even Huntingford says: [23]
Ahmad Graň was , it has been said , a Somali , ' and his headquarters were on the edge of the Somali country
I could add several more citations that basically echo the same thing that this is a mainstream POV Ragnimo ( talk) 13:27, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
References
Should the articles lede state his ethnic background, yes or no? Magherbin ( talk) 07:04, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Ahmed gurey didn’t belong to the Abadir dynasty, since his brother Umar Ad Din belong to The Walashma dynasty according to J. Spencer Trimingham, Islam in Ethiopia (Oxford: Geoffrey Cumberlege for the University Press, 1952), p. 86. Monarer ( talk) 08:08, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Monarer: Spencer Trimingham 1952, p. 86 may be a bit ambiguous, but when one looks at other sources (especially Tamrat, Taddesse (1977). "Ethiopia, the Red Sea and the Horn". In Oliver, Roland (ed.). The Cambridge History of Africa. Volume 3: from c. 1050 to c. 1600. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 98–182. ISBN 978-0-521-20981-6. p. 169) it is quite clear that Umar Din was a brother of sultan Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad rather than of Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrahim (I've updated the relevant articles accordingly).
However, our current mention of the Abadir dynasty appear to be entirely unsourced. @ Magherbin: since you appear to be the editor who added the mention of the Abadir dynasty to the infobox, can you cite us a reliable source for that (I've added a {{ citation needed}} template in the mean time)? Thanks! ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 15:59, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
@
Magherbin: I wrote: A
MA thesis is generally not a
reliable source, which turns out to be quite true in this case: Wondimu's reference for this is "The Harari Culture,Heritage and Tourism Bureau, p.239"; we will need something better for this, preferably a widely respected academic scholar.
Your reply: Get consensus
.
[24]
Really? I was assuming you picked up this ref ( [25]) somewhere without verifying it. But are you really telling us that you consider that MA thesis, or a tourist bureau, a reliable source? Should we really go bother the poor people at WP:RSN with this? ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 17:45, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
he was a pure somali , and he belonged to the Mahmed case clans Gadabuursi, a tribe that inhibits zaila since the 13th century, there are no other ethnicity that inhibits zaila till this day.the tribe that sultan sa'ed diin colonized and oppressed, and its the main reason why imaam ahmed gurey declared a war against him, and later on took his throne. It's the Tribe that gave the land , where masjid Qiblaten was built. So i am suggesting that you need to do more research on zaila and the adal empire. It's a clear infringement of the rights of this tribes , when you are saying he was not somali. Deeq rooble wacays ( talk) 21:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
He is harari 196.191.49.77 ( talk) 07:08, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
If it is largely accepted that he is of Somali ethnicity with minor disputes, why does the detail for early life frame it as if it's equally disputed and puts Harari first? Somali should be listed first with the detail for scholar acceptance of ethnicity being a majority. This seems biased given the countless sources people thow at contrarians. Togawa11 ( talk) 09:33, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
It states in the article that Ahmed ordered infrastructure to be destroyed however there was a reason for this, the Church specifically was used as a military garrison by the Ethiopians. Perhaps someone can find sources on that as Islamic law forbids destruction of buildings for no apparent reason. Magherbin ( talk) 14:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)