This article is within the scope of WikiProject Agriculture, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
agriculture on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AgricultureWikipedia:WikiProject AgricultureTemplate:WikiProject AgricultureAgriculture articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Economics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Economics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EconomicsWikipedia:WikiProject EconomicsTemplate:WikiProject EconomicsEconomics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
Oh? Point to a case that didn't involve it, or some kind of "do this, or else..." edict.
For example the
Plan Zamora land reform in Venezuela which includes the redistribution of expropriated (which compensation) "latifundios" and government land to small farmers and landless families. Isn't this land reform an opposite of nationalization. Wouldn't the redistribution of government land be "de-nationalization" or something like this?
Béka14:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Agrarian reform means general reforms in agriculture; the reform of the propriety of land (
Land reform) or the use of land, of agricultural methods etc. It can mean expropriation of land and its nationalization, but these are definitely different things. Nationalization can mean the nationalization of land, but also of many other things like companies, factories etc.
Béka09:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I oppose the merger. Agrarian reform can mean a lot of things; it is closely related to
land reform, on which we have an extensive article. This article was split out of that as a separate stub precisely so that we have somewhere to expand on those other aspects (e.g. government loans, etc.), but no one has gotten around to doing so.
As for "'reform' according to whom": generally, as in land reform, according to either those agitating for changes before the fact or to the government of the time when the reform takes place. Agrarian reforms are by no means always nationalizations: the reforms at the end of the Communist era in Eastern Europe were quite the opposite. Also, while I cannot think of an example offhand, it wouldn't surprise me if there was an example of an agrarian reform that never changed the formal ownership of property at all: e.g. one that focused entirely on monetary credits and educational opportunities for an already landed peasantry. -
Jmabel |
Talk04:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I accept your stipulation to the fact that, in all instances presently known to you, "reform" is a POV term or at best a euphemism, if not outright political propaganda. It's also disingenuous to describe the land privatizations (AKA
"Re-Established Ownership Rights") of post-communist eastern Europe as "land reform" when they represent the exact anti-thesis of the collectivist "land reforms" promoted by Marxists (eg., Allende's in Chile) in the mid-20th century (ie., when they felt the need for "marketing" phrases like "land reform", as opposed to earlier straight-up property grabs under the aegis of "from each, according to his abilitity, to each, according to his need"); doing so dilutes the phrase to utter meaninglessness, since it can then mean absolutely anything at all.--
Mike18xx04:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I just figured I'd try to speak to you in your own language. But apparently when it comes from other people it is a non sequitur.
I am gathering the distinct impression that you have no idea what certain words I am using mean.
You start out by "accepting" that I stipulated something rather different than what I, in fact, stipulated.
No; I merely observed that the logical conclusion of your argument was something other than what you perhaps thought it was.
Then you call me "disingenuous" in calling the post-Communist changes in land ownership "land reform" (and you seem to presume that they all consisted of handing land back to historic owners, which they did not).
My reasons for labeling the reasoning so are listed above; rewording them to "sound worse" in reprise is another example of that very same thing. As for my "presumptions", I am merely responding to what you previously offered. (I am also perfectly aware of the fact that original owners may be missing/dead after such lengthy durations.)
How is breaking up large government-owned farms and giving land to the peasants "the antithesis" of breaking up large privately-owned farms and giving land to the peasants? -
Jmabel |
Talk00:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
When "land reform" is used to describe BOTH the return of property to rightful owners (Easter Europe) AND the seizure of property from its rightful owners (various kleptocratic regimes), then the term becomes all-encompassing and therefore pretty much wholly useless without significant context. I.e., you might as well use the word "loyal" to describe both obeisance and treachery. In short, language and concepts are destroyed, and one has to perpetually "speak with footnotes" in order to be understood at all. I.e., dictionaries become ever more bloated with every word and phrase acquiring more and more and more and more internally-contradictory definitions. Aside from that legitimate complaint, I get the distinct impression that Eastern Europe (actual "reform" going on there) is trotted out merely to forstall any attempt to chuck labels preferred by those throwin' down with all the codified thievery. At least, that's how the sequence played out here.
....now if someone were to offer that property-restorations could be "land-reform", while observating the vast number of instances of the term "land-reform" to describe property-redistributions are actually just propagandistic buzz-phrases from politicians to clue supporters in to free loot (which is precisely what all of those so-called "willing seller, willing buyer" programs are when the government taxes an owner to "willing buy" his land (which cannot be "willing sold" to anyone BUT government), then gives it away to supporters), that I would readily accept -- because it's the *truth*. There's also the unsavory racism angle (entirely absent in the articles) at play in many usages, in that "land-reform" invariably, or even explicitly, involves robbing a caucasian (eg., Zimbabwe, etc), which I'll mention but leave aside for now.--
Mike18xx04:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Mike, may I request that you stop breaking apart my paragraphs? It is one thing to intersperse your remarks between paragraphs of someone else's comment, but when you break after individual sentences, you seriously interfere with the flow of the other person's writing. I ignored it the first few times you did this, but you are making a habit of it. -
Jmabel |
Talk19:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Are you at all familiar with how, say, Hungary redistributed property after '89? It's not just a matter of pre-'48 owners being dead; heirs were given the same rights as surviving owners. The system was somewhat complicated, but it was not the simple return of particular properties to pre-'48 owners (or their heirs). -
Jmabel |
Talk19:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
And frankly, when someone who calls George Bush a "socialist" accuses me of changing the meaning of words, I don't have a lot of patience for dealing with him. -
Jmabel |
Talk19:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Article slant
This article seems heavily slanted toward the World Bank's concept of agrarian reform. There must be others.
It would be very helpful if you could be more specific and suggest some alternative views that should be covered -- always bearing in mind that there is a separate article on
land reform as distinct from
agrarian reform. Thank you. --
Zlerman (
talk)
02:48, 2 January 2009 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Agriculture, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
agriculture on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AgricultureWikipedia:WikiProject AgricultureTemplate:WikiProject AgricultureAgriculture articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Economics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Economics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EconomicsWikipedia:WikiProject EconomicsTemplate:WikiProject EconomicsEconomics articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
Oh? Point to a case that didn't involve it, or some kind of "do this, or else..." edict.
For example the
Plan Zamora land reform in Venezuela which includes the redistribution of expropriated (which compensation) "latifundios" and government land to small farmers and landless families. Isn't this land reform an opposite of nationalization. Wouldn't the redistribution of government land be "de-nationalization" or something like this?
Béka14:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Agrarian reform means general reforms in agriculture; the reform of the propriety of land (
Land reform) or the use of land, of agricultural methods etc. It can mean expropriation of land and its nationalization, but these are definitely different things. Nationalization can mean the nationalization of land, but also of many other things like companies, factories etc.
Béka09:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I oppose the merger. Agrarian reform can mean a lot of things; it is closely related to
land reform, on which we have an extensive article. This article was split out of that as a separate stub precisely so that we have somewhere to expand on those other aspects (e.g. government loans, etc.), but no one has gotten around to doing so.
As for "'reform' according to whom": generally, as in land reform, according to either those agitating for changes before the fact or to the government of the time when the reform takes place. Agrarian reforms are by no means always nationalizations: the reforms at the end of the Communist era in Eastern Europe were quite the opposite. Also, while I cannot think of an example offhand, it wouldn't surprise me if there was an example of an agrarian reform that never changed the formal ownership of property at all: e.g. one that focused entirely on monetary credits and educational opportunities for an already landed peasantry. -
Jmabel |
Talk04:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I accept your stipulation to the fact that, in all instances presently known to you, "reform" is a POV term or at best a euphemism, if not outright political propaganda. It's also disingenuous to describe the land privatizations (AKA
"Re-Established Ownership Rights") of post-communist eastern Europe as "land reform" when they represent the exact anti-thesis of the collectivist "land reforms" promoted by Marxists (eg., Allende's in Chile) in the mid-20th century (ie., when they felt the need for "marketing" phrases like "land reform", as opposed to earlier straight-up property grabs under the aegis of "from each, according to his abilitity, to each, according to his need"); doing so dilutes the phrase to utter meaninglessness, since it can then mean absolutely anything at all.--
Mike18xx04:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I just figured I'd try to speak to you in your own language. But apparently when it comes from other people it is a non sequitur.
I am gathering the distinct impression that you have no idea what certain words I am using mean.
You start out by "accepting" that I stipulated something rather different than what I, in fact, stipulated.
No; I merely observed that the logical conclusion of your argument was something other than what you perhaps thought it was.
Then you call me "disingenuous" in calling the post-Communist changes in land ownership "land reform" (and you seem to presume that they all consisted of handing land back to historic owners, which they did not).
My reasons for labeling the reasoning so are listed above; rewording them to "sound worse" in reprise is another example of that very same thing. As for my "presumptions", I am merely responding to what you previously offered. (I am also perfectly aware of the fact that original owners may be missing/dead after such lengthy durations.)
How is breaking up large government-owned farms and giving land to the peasants "the antithesis" of breaking up large privately-owned farms and giving land to the peasants? -
Jmabel |
Talk00:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
When "land reform" is used to describe BOTH the return of property to rightful owners (Easter Europe) AND the seizure of property from its rightful owners (various kleptocratic regimes), then the term becomes all-encompassing and therefore pretty much wholly useless without significant context. I.e., you might as well use the word "loyal" to describe both obeisance and treachery. In short, language and concepts are destroyed, and one has to perpetually "speak with footnotes" in order to be understood at all. I.e., dictionaries become ever more bloated with every word and phrase acquiring more and more and more and more internally-contradictory definitions. Aside from that legitimate complaint, I get the distinct impression that Eastern Europe (actual "reform" going on there) is trotted out merely to forstall any attempt to chuck labels preferred by those throwin' down with all the codified thievery. At least, that's how the sequence played out here.
....now if someone were to offer that property-restorations could be "land-reform", while observating the vast number of instances of the term "land-reform" to describe property-redistributions are actually just propagandistic buzz-phrases from politicians to clue supporters in to free loot (which is precisely what all of those so-called "willing seller, willing buyer" programs are when the government taxes an owner to "willing buy" his land (which cannot be "willing sold" to anyone BUT government), then gives it away to supporters), that I would readily accept -- because it's the *truth*. There's also the unsavory racism angle (entirely absent in the articles) at play in many usages, in that "land-reform" invariably, or even explicitly, involves robbing a caucasian (eg., Zimbabwe, etc), which I'll mention but leave aside for now.--
Mike18xx04:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Mike, may I request that you stop breaking apart my paragraphs? It is one thing to intersperse your remarks between paragraphs of someone else's comment, but when you break after individual sentences, you seriously interfere with the flow of the other person's writing. I ignored it the first few times you did this, but you are making a habit of it. -
Jmabel |
Talk19:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Are you at all familiar with how, say, Hungary redistributed property after '89? It's not just a matter of pre-'48 owners being dead; heirs were given the same rights as surviving owners. The system was somewhat complicated, but it was not the simple return of particular properties to pre-'48 owners (or their heirs). -
Jmabel |
Talk19:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
And frankly, when someone who calls George Bush a "socialist" accuses me of changing the meaning of words, I don't have a lot of patience for dealing with him. -
Jmabel |
Talk19:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Article slant
This article seems heavily slanted toward the World Bank's concept of agrarian reform. There must be others.
It would be very helpful if you could be more specific and suggest some alternative views that should be covered -- always bearing in mind that there is a separate article on
land reform as distinct from
agrarian reform. Thank you. --
Zlerman (
talk)
02:48, 2 January 2009 (UTC)reply