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With one exception this article is only based on sources from Azerbaijan. These sources are not neutral and the information they provide is often not completely accurate. I think we should try to replace or combine these sources with neutral ones. Lets starting from the lead of the article: based on Azerbaijani sources it asserts that the mosque was partly destroyed during the war, however according to RFERL the mosque wasn't destroyed. -- va c io 19:43, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I am sorry, but the article doesn't even mention what has been refurbished. It only says that authorities are planning to restore mosque in the next (2011) year, but there is no confirmation that such works have been carried out. The information you added is completely different than in the source and misleads the reader. -- Verman1 ( talk) 19:05, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Can user NovaSkola explain, why he removed information based on RFERL and News.am? -- va c io 17:16, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Why are Azerbaijani users so eager to remove the information about the clean up of the Mosque? -- George Spurlin ( talk) 02:00, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Here is the summary of my last edit that was reverted by Verman1. Since it was based on on the arguments and discussion here, I think it should be restored as a consensus version. So if anyone has remarks about any of the following points, please mention them.
Hello guys.
After reading your heated discussion here and seeing amount of nonsense reverse edits done to this article, I decided to add my voice and some eye-witness evidence here. I'm a European Union citizen, not Armenian or Azeri and also no Christian and no Muslim, so I guess I can be really neutral on this issue. I visited ruins of Agdam less than 10 days ago (on the 06.06.2013), and I saw this mosque.
My observations after the visit there:
1. The city is virtually destroyed, I think this mosque is the only intact building still left standing.
2. Apart from building plaster and paint flaking from the walls plus some light graffiti on them, building looks completely undamaged.
3. Both minarets towers are still standing and there are no visible holes in the walls.
4. The roof of the mosque have NOT been pulled down for sure - its still complete and intact. But if there was ever any attic - its gone now.
5. Outside of the main entrance to the building there is the information plate of NKR in Armenian and English, saying:
"Historical & cultural monument
Persian Mosque (1868-1870)
Protected by State"
6. Original doors to the mosque are gone, but all of the entrances have new fence gates, closed with locks.
7. There is indeed some cattle grazing near the mosque, obviously using the shadow of the building as the protection from the strong sun.
It cannot enter the mosque because of the fence gates.
8. I haven't seen any pigs near the mosque or anywhere in the ruins of the city.
9. Inside of the mosque is free of cow manure - if there was any, it was entirely cleaned. There are only some stones on the floor.
And here is some photo evidence to support my words:
http://imageshack.us/a/img837/2843/5609.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img442/4315/uod1.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img705/4585/4alp.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img542/2633/jilf.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img515/7882/w8du.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img812/1993/kzc0.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img189/9928/e6m2.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img268/1364/udr6.jpg
All photos in one RAR archive:
Agdam mosque 06.06.2013.rar (9.9 MB)
https://mega.co.nz/#!tcZAFZ5K!PHH7f1Ayk_CoZFF8XtassjxsP9kSfiMb4LlksQxQbM4
I hope this will help.
All the best,
Interfides (
talk)
17:11, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
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@ Golden: why did you remove this?
Sourced to Gamaghelyan, Philip; Rumyantsev, Sergey (2021). "The road to the Second Karabakh War: the role of ethno-centric narratives in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict". Caucasus Survey. 9 (3) - LouisAragon ( talk) 21:30, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
After the capture, according to eyewitnesses, the city was plundered, destroyed and burned. [1][3] - I can't verify this sentence. In fact, after checking that book, I couldn't find anything about Agdam being destroyed after the capture, it was entirely during the battle. Please explain.
where's it coming from, I checked other language Wikipedias, apparently this coming from this source XOCALI (archive.is). Abrvagl ( talk) 17:48, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
"No other "swine in mosques" related incident exists". It does exit for example the Mamar Mosque in Gubadli [4], [5]. PS. Sources just FYI. -- Abrvagl ( talk) 18:49, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
“ | Further, the Armenian government expended considerable, albeit unsuccessful, efforts attempting to frame its conflict with the majority Muslim-populated Azerbaijan, as a “war on terror”, in a barely-veiled appeal to George W. Bush-era rhetoric (Ghazanchyan 2020). A number of European media outlets accepted and channelled this view and framed the conflict as one between Christians and Muslims (HayFanat 2020; Higgins 2020). Azerbaijan, in turn, played up its image as a multi-ethnic and poly-confessional country with a regime committed to tolerance, in contrast to mono-ethnic Armenia. In parallel, Azerbaijan also appealed to its “fraternal” relations with the Muslim world. A narrative of barbarous Armenians who turn mosques into pigsties was an important component of mobilization (AzerTac 2020a). | ” |
References
ZaniGiovanni In this I properly worded statement according to the source. Could you explain why you reverted it? Abrvagl ( talk) 19:57, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
During the First Nagorno-Karabakh war, Agdam was used by Azerbaijani forces to fire BM-21 Grad long-range missiles at the Armenian populace of Stepanakertto this
According to Armenian sources, Azerbaijani forces continually shelled Stepanakert with long-range missiles from Aghdam during the First Nagorno-Karabakh War. By doing such I ensured that infromation matches to what sources says and removed WP:OR/WP:SYNTH parts while keeping the main information to be delivered in the article. Abrvagl ( talk) 09:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Thus the way I reworded does not have such issues and still delivers information you wanted to deliver.
During the First Nagorno-Karabakh War, Azerbaijani forces utilized Aghdam, one of the strategic towns, to continually shell Armenian positions, including Stepanakert, with long-range missiles.Abrvagl ( talk) 07:07, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Agdam Mosque article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
Armenia,
Azerbaijan, or related conflicts, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
With one exception this article is only based on sources from Azerbaijan. These sources are not neutral and the information they provide is often not completely accurate. I think we should try to replace or combine these sources with neutral ones. Lets starting from the lead of the article: based on Azerbaijani sources it asserts that the mosque was partly destroyed during the war, however according to RFERL the mosque wasn't destroyed. -- va c io 19:43, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I am sorry, but the article doesn't even mention what has been refurbished. It only says that authorities are planning to restore mosque in the next (2011) year, but there is no confirmation that such works have been carried out. The information you added is completely different than in the source and misleads the reader. -- Verman1 ( talk) 19:05, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Can user NovaSkola explain, why he removed information based on RFERL and News.am? -- va c io 17:16, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Why are Azerbaijani users so eager to remove the information about the clean up of the Mosque? -- George Spurlin ( talk) 02:00, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Here is the summary of my last edit that was reverted by Verman1. Since it was based on on the arguments and discussion here, I think it should be restored as a consensus version. So if anyone has remarks about any of the following points, please mention them.
Hello guys.
After reading your heated discussion here and seeing amount of nonsense reverse edits done to this article, I decided to add my voice and some eye-witness evidence here. I'm a European Union citizen, not Armenian or Azeri and also no Christian and no Muslim, so I guess I can be really neutral on this issue. I visited ruins of Agdam less than 10 days ago (on the 06.06.2013), and I saw this mosque.
My observations after the visit there:
1. The city is virtually destroyed, I think this mosque is the only intact building still left standing.
2. Apart from building plaster and paint flaking from the walls plus some light graffiti on them, building looks completely undamaged.
3. Both minarets towers are still standing and there are no visible holes in the walls.
4. The roof of the mosque have NOT been pulled down for sure - its still complete and intact. But if there was ever any attic - its gone now.
5. Outside of the main entrance to the building there is the information plate of NKR in Armenian and English, saying:
"Historical & cultural monument
Persian Mosque (1868-1870)
Protected by State"
6. Original doors to the mosque are gone, but all of the entrances have new fence gates, closed with locks.
7. There is indeed some cattle grazing near the mosque, obviously using the shadow of the building as the protection from the strong sun.
It cannot enter the mosque because of the fence gates.
8. I haven't seen any pigs near the mosque or anywhere in the ruins of the city.
9. Inside of the mosque is free of cow manure - if there was any, it was entirely cleaned. There are only some stones on the floor.
And here is some photo evidence to support my words:
http://imageshack.us/a/img837/2843/5609.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img442/4315/uod1.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img705/4585/4alp.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img542/2633/jilf.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img515/7882/w8du.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img812/1993/kzc0.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img189/9928/e6m2.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img268/1364/udr6.jpg
All photos in one RAR archive:
Agdam mosque 06.06.2013.rar (9.9 MB)
https://mega.co.nz/#!tcZAFZ5K!PHH7f1Ayk_CoZFF8XtassjxsP9kSfiMb4LlksQxQbM4
I hope this will help.
All the best,
Interfides (
talk)
17:11, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Agdam Mosque. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:30, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
@ Golden: why did you remove this?
Sourced to Gamaghelyan, Philip; Rumyantsev, Sergey (2021). "The road to the Second Karabakh War: the role of ethno-centric narratives in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict". Caucasus Survey. 9 (3) - LouisAragon ( talk) 21:30, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
After the capture, according to eyewitnesses, the city was plundered, destroyed and burned. [1][3] - I can't verify this sentence. In fact, after checking that book, I couldn't find anything about Agdam being destroyed after the capture, it was entirely during the battle. Please explain.
where's it coming from, I checked other language Wikipedias, apparently this coming from this source XOCALI (archive.is). Abrvagl ( talk) 17:48, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
"No other "swine in mosques" related incident exists". It does exit for example the Mamar Mosque in Gubadli [4], [5]. PS. Sources just FYI. -- Abrvagl ( talk) 18:49, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
“ | Further, the Armenian government expended considerable, albeit unsuccessful, efforts attempting to frame its conflict with the majority Muslim-populated Azerbaijan, as a “war on terror”, in a barely-veiled appeal to George W. Bush-era rhetoric (Ghazanchyan 2020). A number of European media outlets accepted and channelled this view and framed the conflict as one between Christians and Muslims (HayFanat 2020; Higgins 2020). Azerbaijan, in turn, played up its image as a multi-ethnic and poly-confessional country with a regime committed to tolerance, in contrast to mono-ethnic Armenia. In parallel, Azerbaijan also appealed to its “fraternal” relations with the Muslim world. A narrative of barbarous Armenians who turn mosques into pigsties was an important component of mobilization (AzerTac 2020a). | ” |
References
ZaniGiovanni In this I properly worded statement according to the source. Could you explain why you reverted it? Abrvagl ( talk) 19:57, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
During the First Nagorno-Karabakh war, Agdam was used by Azerbaijani forces to fire BM-21 Grad long-range missiles at the Armenian populace of Stepanakertto this
According to Armenian sources, Azerbaijani forces continually shelled Stepanakert with long-range missiles from Aghdam during the First Nagorno-Karabakh War. By doing such I ensured that infromation matches to what sources says and removed WP:OR/WP:SYNTH parts while keeping the main information to be delivered in the article. Abrvagl ( talk) 09:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Thus the way I reworded does not have such issues and still delivers information you wanted to deliver.
During the First Nagorno-Karabakh War, Azerbaijani forces utilized Aghdam, one of the strategic towns, to continually shell Armenian positions, including Stepanakert, with long-range missiles.Abrvagl ( talk) 07:07, 20 July 2022 (UTC)