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On 31 Mar 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Agartha for a record of the discussion. — Korath ( Talk) 05:35, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
I started to copyedit this, but it needs major help from an expert in the field I think. Kevin 10:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
what the hell is this? wheres any proof what so ever this isnt theories this is paranormal
"The association of Hohlweltlehre theories and the Nazis arises from the unsubstantiated surmise that Adolf Hitler sent an expedition, led by Dr. Heinz Fischer, to the Baltic island of Rugen to spy on the British fleet. Fischer did so not by aiming his telescopic cameras across the waters, but by pointing them up to peer across the atmosphere to the Atlantic Ocean."
This paragraph dosn't make any sense in literal, scientific, or logical terms. 1. What does this actually imply? "Aiming up"? What does this have to do with the rest of the page? 2. Why would Hitler send such a low-level mission personally? 3. Why is this not referenced *at all*? 4. The grammar is totally ambiguous - it could mean anything. -> there is no context given that could make sense of this. -> it dosn't explain the Nazi-hollow earth link *at all* "unsubstantiated surmise" -> you're not kidding are you?
Rama, India - beneath this surface city is a long lost subterranean city, it is said, also named Rama
There is no city in India by the name Rama. Agartha is two cities. Agartha Alpha and Beta. Both located under the Gobi Desert in Mongolia. There are no entrances to Agartha from anywhere else on the planet but from the Gobi Desert itself. This post needs to be seriously edited. Some seriously shoddy material posted on Agartha here.
-- Chr.K. 16:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
There's only a paragraph on it in the intro saying it's "not supported by modern science" and the rest of the article treats it like a legitimate theory. There needs to be more on opinions against this. — Pious 7 21:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I guess I was hoping for too much in coming to this article trying to rfind real documentation about this placename/myth, not a statement-as-facts recitation of modern-era popular hack mythology; and like other New Age-rewritten mythology the original content is pushed aside in favour of pomo fashions and von Daniken/Hancock like gee-whizism. Iguazu Falls? Gimme a break. The Agartha I've heard about was not part of a Burroughsian "hollow earth" theory but was a hidden/underground city in Central Asia, in the Kunlens or Altai, and not generally confused/equated with Shambhala although similar in concept; Agartha is older "in the tradition" than Buddhism and Shambhala is explicity Buddhist. I think the refs I know of were in Lewis Spence's Encyclopedia of the Occult or another older work, the Pellucidarian take is entirely "internet age" in origin, or in popularity anyway. Where in Spence I'm not sure; I do remember he talks about Kaf, which is hidden undeer the Great Caucusus (the rim of mountains around the edge of the world, in a mehtaphysical/mtholological sense, including the earthly Caucusus and the Bactrian/Afghan/Hindu Kush ranges]]. Anyway just voicing disppointment that the myth is not more encylopedically accounted here, and instead as so often elsewhere on the net/in wiki, apocryphal speculations are quoted as if documentary fact. Skookum1 ( talk) 14:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Underground cities or caves are fictions. What is the reality is astral travelling. A Shaman use any drugs for a trance situation and believe in this situation that he has travelled into an underground realm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#Spirits
(...) In the Peruvian Amazon Basin and north coastal regions of the country, the healer shamans are known as curanderos. In addition to Peruvian shaman’s (curanderos) use of rattles, and their ritualized ingestion of mescaline-bearing San Pedro cactuses (Trichocereus pachanoi) for the divinization and diagnosis of sorcery, north-coastal shamans are famous throughout the region for their intricately complex and symbolically dense healing altars called mesas (tables). (...) The yaskomo of the Waiwai is believed to be able to perform a soul flight. The soul flight can serve several functions:
Thus, a yaskomo is believed to be able to reach sky, earth, water, in short, every element. (...) -- 81.215.231.76 ( talk) 17:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
A search for agartha simply directs to the miles davis album, with no link to a disambiguation or a link to the theory for which the album was named. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cooldice23 ( talk • contribs) 18:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
most of these legends, myths, stories, and psuedoscientific gurgles are completely unrelated. the article about all of them should be called "acient subterranean cities" and not "agarttha." for instance, if, as the article clearly implies, all of these legends describe the same city, then why is it simultaneously under a city in india, and under the gobi desert, and at the earth's core? while it is true that it is "directly under" all of these places if it is in the core, that makes discussion of what surface feature of the earth it is under moot. my point is that the things being used to connect these ideas are not connections at all, and that these various facets of ancient mythology should have separate and distinct (and sourced) articles. maybe i'm asking too much of new-age bullshit, but whoever wants this to be in this encyclopedia should make it at least seem encyclopedic. - nzbensen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.154.166.164 ( talk) 06:13, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Huh? Given that the north pole is just a coordinate on a mass of ice floating on water, how could it has an entrance of an underground anything? Or do you need to take a towel in a plastic bag if you get in that way? :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.241.80 ( talk) 12:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Examining this website it appears to be unclear as to any affiliations or official recognition, I have found none so far. The website is registered in an anonymous manner (no named individual on the registration database) though with a UK phone number and an anonymous PO box in Austria. It may be an elaborate con for people to pay for the "correspondence course". There is no mention of this site in LexisNexis in any published newspaper or magazine and no mention in the Google News archive. Consequently this cannot be considered in any way a reliable source and should not be used to substantiate statements in the article.— Ash ( talk) 08:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm stubbing this down to only properly referenced statements. Feel free to restore information with proper citations. Simonm223 ( talk) 20:46, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
After completing that I find what is left still depends on three websites which do not provide a WP:RS basis for notability of the myth. PRODding. Simonm223 ( talk) 21:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
-According to David Standish in his book Hollow Earth, Agartha is specifically a buddhist conception of a vast underground world, not just a city (page 12). Now, with Victorian Orientalism in full swing, and plenty of other Hollow Earth craziness going around in the 19th century, its unsurprising the term spread and got coopted, but I'm guessing Mr. Standish is correct about its origins. (As he focuses on truly hollow Earth theories, his book isn't useful for improving this page much).
-While modern occultists and paranormal 'experts' have tended to conflate various myths and theories together in their ramblings, this confuses and obscures the independence of earlier theories and makes for poor encyclopedic material. In particular, the passage about The Smoky God is clearly talking about a book based on Symmes' polar holes theory that had nothing to do with Agartha until some syncreticist commented on it.
-Much of the article talks about Shamballa with only the most tangential links and no citations. It would be far better to just mention Shamballa and leave it as a link rather than spend time in teh Agartha article explaining Shamballa.
-d'Alveydre's book is uncited and unnamed, which is rather unfortunate.
-Some sections of the text are apparently identical to other webpages (see: http://archangel-michael.us/archangel_michael_article_agartha.htm, for example)
I'll probably remove some of the material as being unsuitable and see what i can dig up for good citations... -- 68.255.96.248 ( talk) 23:37, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
when Christianity lives up to the commandments which were once drafted by Moses and Jesus," meaning "When the Anarchy which exists in our world is replaced by the Synarchy."
I'm not sure where this meaning comes from, but the greatest commandments by Moses and Jesus are personal commandments for how to live, rather than national or group commandments.
Moses:
Jesus:
Therefore, I would say that he rather means once Christianity lives up to these standards mentioned above, as nowhere does the Bible say that Christians are to setup Christ's kingdom on earth. Christ himself will do that. We are to bring his kingdom to men's hearts, so to speak. Aliens to our own country, we become citizens of another, whose laws, customs, and precepts we follow. A kingdom which, as Napoleon said, is ruled by love, not force. Some countries say you cannot have dual citizenship with this kingdom, others do not mind. But when the time comes to choose, we cannot deny Christ. Arlen22 ( talk) 23:48, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Arnt they ment to be there in the orig version?-- HalloHelloHalloHello ( talk) 11:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
WP:PROFRINGE edits—I started a WP:FTN topic about those. tgeorgescu ( talk) 11:15, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
The article says this is a legend, but if it The invention of someone in the 19th canteen the correct word would be fictional. Achar Sva ( talk) 23:16, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
CAT:nonfiction CONT:Agartha OR Agarti OR Aghartti OR Agartta OR Agartti OR Agartta AUTH:*
at my local library. Should anything trip this filter, I'll check it out, though I'll note that two of the sources already used here are the only ones at present to do so.
ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants
Tell me all about it.
12:27, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
This is amusing - the first book cited in the article is by a Ferdinand Ossendowski, and concerns adventures of the author in central Asia ... but did Ossendowski ever really exist? The Ossendowski Controversy. Achar Sva ( talk) 06:07, 11 June 2021 (UTC) For defining the topic, this article by Umberto Eco is more useful. Achar Sva ( talk) 06:11, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Agartha's been referenced a few times in other media. Should we reference this in the article somewhere?-- Hawkatana ( talk) 11:20, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
There are tons of things to say about Agarthi. First of all, the work of Rene Guenon. I am disgusted to see how wikipedia is becoming a pure censorship of anything that goes beyond scientific cult of new millennium and political propaganda. That's wicked. Very wicked. You are just deleting history. Same as nazism. 37.161.25.52 ( talk) 16:23, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
I would be bold and change the first sentence to:
The legend of Agartha remained mostly obscure in Europe until 1910, when Gérard Encausse edited and re-published a detailed 1886 account by the nineteenth-century French occultist Alexandre Saint-Yves d'Alveydre (1842–1909), Mission de l'Inde en Europe.
Which I think is much better, but I'd probably screw up the references... 2A02:A210:A1C0:E280:34A7:8962:9E0A:200E ( talk) 14:49, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
agartha is it real 110.54.160.212 ( talk) 14:34, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 31 Mar 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Agartha for a record of the discussion. — Korath ( Talk) 05:35, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
I started to copyedit this, but it needs major help from an expert in the field I think. Kevin 10:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
what the hell is this? wheres any proof what so ever this isnt theories this is paranormal
"The association of Hohlweltlehre theories and the Nazis arises from the unsubstantiated surmise that Adolf Hitler sent an expedition, led by Dr. Heinz Fischer, to the Baltic island of Rugen to spy on the British fleet. Fischer did so not by aiming his telescopic cameras across the waters, but by pointing them up to peer across the atmosphere to the Atlantic Ocean."
This paragraph dosn't make any sense in literal, scientific, or logical terms. 1. What does this actually imply? "Aiming up"? What does this have to do with the rest of the page? 2. Why would Hitler send such a low-level mission personally? 3. Why is this not referenced *at all*? 4. The grammar is totally ambiguous - it could mean anything. -> there is no context given that could make sense of this. -> it dosn't explain the Nazi-hollow earth link *at all* "unsubstantiated surmise" -> you're not kidding are you?
Rama, India - beneath this surface city is a long lost subterranean city, it is said, also named Rama
There is no city in India by the name Rama. Agartha is two cities. Agartha Alpha and Beta. Both located under the Gobi Desert in Mongolia. There are no entrances to Agartha from anywhere else on the planet but from the Gobi Desert itself. This post needs to be seriously edited. Some seriously shoddy material posted on Agartha here.
-- Chr.K. 16:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
There's only a paragraph on it in the intro saying it's "not supported by modern science" and the rest of the article treats it like a legitimate theory. There needs to be more on opinions against this. — Pious 7 21:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I guess I was hoping for too much in coming to this article trying to rfind real documentation about this placename/myth, not a statement-as-facts recitation of modern-era popular hack mythology; and like other New Age-rewritten mythology the original content is pushed aside in favour of pomo fashions and von Daniken/Hancock like gee-whizism. Iguazu Falls? Gimme a break. The Agartha I've heard about was not part of a Burroughsian "hollow earth" theory but was a hidden/underground city in Central Asia, in the Kunlens or Altai, and not generally confused/equated with Shambhala although similar in concept; Agartha is older "in the tradition" than Buddhism and Shambhala is explicity Buddhist. I think the refs I know of were in Lewis Spence's Encyclopedia of the Occult or another older work, the Pellucidarian take is entirely "internet age" in origin, or in popularity anyway. Where in Spence I'm not sure; I do remember he talks about Kaf, which is hidden undeer the Great Caucusus (the rim of mountains around the edge of the world, in a mehtaphysical/mtholological sense, including the earthly Caucusus and the Bactrian/Afghan/Hindu Kush ranges]]. Anyway just voicing disppointment that the myth is not more encylopedically accounted here, and instead as so often elsewhere on the net/in wiki, apocryphal speculations are quoted as if documentary fact. Skookum1 ( talk) 14:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Underground cities or caves are fictions. What is the reality is astral travelling. A Shaman use any drugs for a trance situation and believe in this situation that he has travelled into an underground realm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#Spirits
(...) In the Peruvian Amazon Basin and north coastal regions of the country, the healer shamans are known as curanderos. In addition to Peruvian shaman’s (curanderos) use of rattles, and their ritualized ingestion of mescaline-bearing San Pedro cactuses (Trichocereus pachanoi) for the divinization and diagnosis of sorcery, north-coastal shamans are famous throughout the region for their intricately complex and symbolically dense healing altars called mesas (tables). (...) The yaskomo of the Waiwai is believed to be able to perform a soul flight. The soul flight can serve several functions:
Thus, a yaskomo is believed to be able to reach sky, earth, water, in short, every element. (...) -- 81.215.231.76 ( talk) 17:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
A search for agartha simply directs to the miles davis album, with no link to a disambiguation or a link to the theory for which the album was named. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cooldice23 ( talk • contribs) 18:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
most of these legends, myths, stories, and psuedoscientific gurgles are completely unrelated. the article about all of them should be called "acient subterranean cities" and not "agarttha." for instance, if, as the article clearly implies, all of these legends describe the same city, then why is it simultaneously under a city in india, and under the gobi desert, and at the earth's core? while it is true that it is "directly under" all of these places if it is in the core, that makes discussion of what surface feature of the earth it is under moot. my point is that the things being used to connect these ideas are not connections at all, and that these various facets of ancient mythology should have separate and distinct (and sourced) articles. maybe i'm asking too much of new-age bullshit, but whoever wants this to be in this encyclopedia should make it at least seem encyclopedic. - nzbensen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.154.166.164 ( talk) 06:13, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Huh? Given that the north pole is just a coordinate on a mass of ice floating on water, how could it has an entrance of an underground anything? Or do you need to take a towel in a plastic bag if you get in that way? :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.241.80 ( talk) 12:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Examining this website it appears to be unclear as to any affiliations or official recognition, I have found none so far. The website is registered in an anonymous manner (no named individual on the registration database) though with a UK phone number and an anonymous PO box in Austria. It may be an elaborate con for people to pay for the "correspondence course". There is no mention of this site in LexisNexis in any published newspaper or magazine and no mention in the Google News archive. Consequently this cannot be considered in any way a reliable source and should not be used to substantiate statements in the article.— Ash ( talk) 08:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm stubbing this down to only properly referenced statements. Feel free to restore information with proper citations. Simonm223 ( talk) 20:46, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
After completing that I find what is left still depends on three websites which do not provide a WP:RS basis for notability of the myth. PRODding. Simonm223 ( talk) 21:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
-According to David Standish in his book Hollow Earth, Agartha is specifically a buddhist conception of a vast underground world, not just a city (page 12). Now, with Victorian Orientalism in full swing, and plenty of other Hollow Earth craziness going around in the 19th century, its unsurprising the term spread and got coopted, but I'm guessing Mr. Standish is correct about its origins. (As he focuses on truly hollow Earth theories, his book isn't useful for improving this page much).
-While modern occultists and paranormal 'experts' have tended to conflate various myths and theories together in their ramblings, this confuses and obscures the independence of earlier theories and makes for poor encyclopedic material. In particular, the passage about The Smoky God is clearly talking about a book based on Symmes' polar holes theory that had nothing to do with Agartha until some syncreticist commented on it.
-Much of the article talks about Shamballa with only the most tangential links and no citations. It would be far better to just mention Shamballa and leave it as a link rather than spend time in teh Agartha article explaining Shamballa.
-d'Alveydre's book is uncited and unnamed, which is rather unfortunate.
-Some sections of the text are apparently identical to other webpages (see: http://archangel-michael.us/archangel_michael_article_agartha.htm, for example)
I'll probably remove some of the material as being unsuitable and see what i can dig up for good citations... -- 68.255.96.248 ( talk) 23:37, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
when Christianity lives up to the commandments which were once drafted by Moses and Jesus," meaning "When the Anarchy which exists in our world is replaced by the Synarchy."
I'm not sure where this meaning comes from, but the greatest commandments by Moses and Jesus are personal commandments for how to live, rather than national or group commandments.
Moses:
Jesus:
Therefore, I would say that he rather means once Christianity lives up to these standards mentioned above, as nowhere does the Bible say that Christians are to setup Christ's kingdom on earth. Christ himself will do that. We are to bring his kingdom to men's hearts, so to speak. Aliens to our own country, we become citizens of another, whose laws, customs, and precepts we follow. A kingdom which, as Napoleon said, is ruled by love, not force. Some countries say you cannot have dual citizenship with this kingdom, others do not mind. But when the time comes to choose, we cannot deny Christ. Arlen22 ( talk) 23:48, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Arnt they ment to be there in the orig version?-- HalloHelloHalloHello ( talk) 11:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
WP:PROFRINGE edits—I started a WP:FTN topic about those. tgeorgescu ( talk) 11:15, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
The article says this is a legend, but if it The invention of someone in the 19th canteen the correct word would be fictional. Achar Sva ( talk) 23:16, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
CAT:nonfiction CONT:Agartha OR Agarti OR Aghartti OR Agartta OR Agartti OR Agartta AUTH:*
at my local library. Should anything trip this filter, I'll check it out, though I'll note that two of the sources already used here are the only ones at present to do so.
ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants
Tell me all about it.
12:27, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
This is amusing - the first book cited in the article is by a Ferdinand Ossendowski, and concerns adventures of the author in central Asia ... but did Ossendowski ever really exist? The Ossendowski Controversy. Achar Sva ( talk) 06:07, 11 June 2021 (UTC) For defining the topic, this article by Umberto Eco is more useful. Achar Sva ( talk) 06:11, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Agartha's been referenced a few times in other media. Should we reference this in the article somewhere?-- Hawkatana ( talk) 11:20, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
There are tons of things to say about Agarthi. First of all, the work of Rene Guenon. I am disgusted to see how wikipedia is becoming a pure censorship of anything that goes beyond scientific cult of new millennium and political propaganda. That's wicked. Very wicked. You are just deleting history. Same as nazism. 37.161.25.52 ( talk) 16:23, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
I would be bold and change the first sentence to:
The legend of Agartha remained mostly obscure in Europe until 1910, when Gérard Encausse edited and re-published a detailed 1886 account by the nineteenth-century French occultist Alexandre Saint-Yves d'Alveydre (1842–1909), Mission de l'Inde en Europe.
Which I think is much better, but I'd probably screw up the references... 2A02:A210:A1C0:E280:34A7:8962:9E0A:200E ( talk) 14:49, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
agartha is it real 110.54.160.212 ( talk) 14:34, 24 February 2024 (UTC)