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I would like to know what mainstream scholar sees ancient Egypt as more related to Semitic than the rest of Africa. Ancient Egyptian civlization definately had more in common culturally with Africans because of the notion of divine kingship,circumcision at puberty,and the rainmaker king. The late Egyptologist Frank Joseph Yurco upheld that ancient Egypt was not Semitic but African! Linguist Arnold Lorpenio place the modern Beja language as most related to ancient Egyptian.
The old view that some dyanstic race came from Western Asian and civilzed the ancient Egyptians is called the dyanstic race theory that has been discared.
I am editing in these facts.
Plus the early languages of the Fertile Crescent were not Semitic but a non-Semitic language know extinct.
First of all we need to establish what you mean by "Ancient Egyptians". You could be referring to any number of peoples who have lived there from the Hyksos, Nubians, Jews, Greeks, Romans, etc. There were definetly Semitic Egyptian dynasties. Also I would like to point out that just because a couple of scholars uphold an idea, that that means its true. There are scientists who say that the true Jews originated in Scandinavia, and if you believe that well... you've got some problems. Canutethegreat 22:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed some unsourced information from this article, as per our Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Futurebird has rather rudely reverted me, and without an edit summary at that. I will be removing the unsourced information again, and hope Futurebird uses the talk page to explain where, exactly, the sources for this information are. Picaroon (t) 03:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
this article is in an appalling state, and major cleanup is necessary.
dab (𒁳) 21:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Taking the pains to look through Linus A. Hoskins, Eurocentrism vs. Afrocentrism: A Geopolitical Linkage Analysis, Journal of Black Studies (1992), which I am now quoting in the lead from which it was linked (but which may be merged into the body in the course of the necessary restructuring), it becomes perfectly clear that Afrocentrism has nothing whatsoever to do with scholarship, and is a purely political ideology of ethnic mysticism. Not necessarily supremacism at all, but pure ideology untempered by research or rational criticism nevertheless. Seeing that the point is driven home even by proponents, it is simply no way to portray this otherwise. Detractors tend to focus on the intellectual muddleheadedness involved, but that, it goes without saying, is the hallmark of any ethnocentric ideology, not Afrocentrism in particular. Afrocentrism does elect to be unacademic, since academia together with rational criticism and the whole establishment grown out of the 17th century Age of Enlightenment is dismissed out-of-hand as un-African. Afrocentrism wants to argue "world history" based on subconscious notions of "Africanness". That makes it an ideology unamenable to academic criticism. Afrocentrists believe what they believe, and peace to them. There is no way, however, that we will portray this in any way related to the fields of actual history, archaeology or academic study of African culture. Now, seeing that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and that the very concept of encyclopedia is purely based in the 18th century Age of Reason, I really don't see why afrocentrists even bother with the project. Wikipedia, by the basic fact of its being an encyclopedia project, cannot write articles from the afrocentric point of view. It can and should report on afrocentrism, but any editor contributing to that needs to step out of their afrocentric world-view as incompatible with Wikipedia core principles, or else leave the project and express their opinions elsewhere. We ask precisely the same of any editor contributing to Christianity, Islam, Germanic mysticism and Atlantis, and most people seem to be able to grasp the concept. Now I am sure Gene Ray feels strongly about Time Cube, but there is no way Wikipedia will state "Religious Singularity is Evil" as an opinion as good as any other. See also the sword-skeleton theory ("experts are [eurocentric] scum"). dab (𒁳) 11:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
"Mainstream Afrocentriam" says that African cultures have had significant but not exceptional influence on the cultures of the world. It's essentially asking that African cultures not be exoticsied or treated as "primitive" but rather studied in the same manner as other cultures. And, frankly, the study of human history has experience a big change in this century with respect to how it views the influence of African cultures. In many ways "Afrocentriam has won." We don't need to claim that the Egyptians all looked like dark-skinned Black folks, or that brown skin has magic powers.
One of the most exciting projects is working on telling the history of colonialism from the perspective of the African nations involved in it, and piecing together the names and histories of those nations and calling them "nations" not "tribes" (when applicable.) Hence this kind of history is Afrocentric, because it includes the African perspective. It also relates to how African cosmology and philosophy are described. Not in terms if "fetish" and "superstition" but as "religion" and "philosophy" when it makes sense to do so.
As far as the whole thing about Eurocentrism being a "red-haring" --I mean, wow. That's a sheltered way of looking at it. Eurocentrism isn't an evil plot by white men in a dark room, it's just the way that history turns out when it's written mostly by people from Europe incorporating their local customs scholarship and tribal superstitions philosophies about Africa. Do you see what I mean?
That's what its about. futurebird 14:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
That interpretation stems largely from a misreading of multiculturalism as ethnocentric. When the word multiculturalism came into vogue, critics of the movement saw no distinction between Afrocentrism and ethnocentrism, on the one hand, and multiculturalism, on the other. Controversies over public school curricula in New York City in the early 1990s clarified the distinction. In 1990 the historian of education Diane Ravitch, opposing Afrocentrism in the public schools, distinguished it from pluralism but treated both as brands of multiculturalism. Yet she noted that Afrocentrism does not embrace a common culture. That distinction should have led her to dissociate multiculturalism from Afrocentrism since the existence of common cultural ground in a society—in this case, American society—is a fundamental issue. In debate with Afrocentrics, self-identified multiculturalists such as the public intellectual Henry Louis Gates Jr. have distanced themselves from Afrocentricism by insisting that European and mainstream American culture have shaped the culture and identity of people of African descent in the New World. It was not until the fallout from the debate on Afrocentrism in public schools and higher education that one leading Afrocentric scholar, Molefi Asante, saw the advantage of repacking Afrocentrism as a form of multiculturalism. Others, such as the late John Henrik Clarke, continued to see multiculturalism as a separate movement. By the mid-1990s, the debates between Gates and Asante had distinguished multiculturalism from Afrocentrism and ethnocentrism. http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jah/91.1/scott.html
futurebird, "Afrocentric work" isn't pseudoscholarship. It's non-scholarship. It's community work, political propaganda, a spiritual quest, or what have you. Only when it begins to pretend that it is scholarship does it become pseudo-scholarship. You can't have pseudo-scholarship without the pretense of being scholarly. Just studying African history isn't Afrocentrism, it's African history. Afrocentrism by merit of its core postulate of "Africanness" is a racialist ideology on exactly the same grounds as Nordicism or any other race-based worldview. Study of a notion of "Africanness" in African-Americans is a valid topic of African-American studies: it's about a cultural identity that exists in the real-life United States. Projection of this notion into historical times is either pseudo-history (if claiming to be academic), or just ethnocentric fantasy. "asking that African cultures not be exoticsied" has nothing to do with Afrocentrism. That's just a request for neutrality and isn't anything-centric. A necessary pre-condition for Afrocentrism is an unverifiable notion of Africanness that goes beyond a pragmatic geographic division, but somehow postulates, for example, that Egyptians have a mystical connection to Bantus by virtue of being located on the same landmass. Eurocentrism is a long-dead horse. It is a hallmark of the Afrocentrist conspiracy theorist to keep unearthing 19th or early 20th century Eurocentric fallacies (which really did exist, although they were hardly ever part of the mainstream), ignoring historical criticism of Eurocentric fallacies, and creating a dishonest impression of academia as inherently Eurocentric. This is exactly parallel to the Indigenous Aryans people claiming Indologists are Eurocentric or colonialist simply to cover up the fact that they do not in fact have a case that would stand academic scrutiny. This is cheap playing of the race card. If there is any case to be made, it can be made within academia, without ideological bells and whistles. As indeed cases for "indigenous continuity" are being made within academia all the time. They just never are quite spectacular enough to match ethnocentric fantasy. History never is. dab (𒁳) 14:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Some sources:
Look at the dates on the article, you can see the way this is evolving over time. futurebird 18:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
It's not so much valorizing as it it correcting for several centuries of Eurocentric scholarship. In many ways, central elements of Afrocentriam and Multiculturalism are now mainstream. Some of the things the early Afrocentrists criticized, have now been corrected and accepted. If you look at the quotes in the section on Eurocentrism you'll realize that few if any scholars have ideas like that these days. How did that transition happen? futurebird 15:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
So you're saying the work of Afrocentrists had nothing to do with this:
When we classify mankind by colour, the only one of the primary races...which has not made a creative contribution to any of our twenty-one civilizations is the black race. — Arnold J. Toynbee, respected 20th-century scholar, historian and author
Racist idea being debunked and rejected by most well accepted scholars? Or am I misreading you? Did people just spontaneously decided that this was wrong?
I think the comparison you draw with feminism is valid. It's another word that has been demonized and is associated too often with only the lunatic fringe of the movement. The reality is, of course, that there is a spectrum within both movements-- and much of the spectrum fuses with good scholarship and mainstream ideas. futurebird 15:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh did didn't see your last change "but like feminism it funtioned as a motivator and challenger." OK. that makes more sense.
futurebird
15:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the language in the lead. Afrocentricity isn't generally considered ideology -- and it isn't, except among a relative few, although it may sometimes have an ideological component. deeceevoice 11:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Eurocentrism isn't described in its lead paragraph as an "ideology." It's described as being ethnocentric. Furthermore, your note here does nothing to explain your wholesale revert of my edits. Don't start edit warring here, Dbachmann. It won't be tolerated. If you make a change/revert, state your rationale. deeceevoice 12:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
And, no, we cannot agree that Afrocentrism is as flawed as Eurocentrism. This "if I'm one, then what are you?" crap is tiresome and just doesn't fly. You can't paint the entire Afrocentrist paradigm with the same, broad brush as that used to rightfully debunk and denounce unscholarly claptrap frontin' like knowledge. Among respected scholars, there is ample room for debate and contention with regard to human history -- particularly ancient human history. Deviating from commonly accepted viewpoints doesn't automatically make one an extremist or a wack-job. All it means is that person has a different interpretation of available information.
My edits were "flawed from beginning to end"? "Saying so doesn't make it so," to paraphrase your edit note here. Where's your rationale for your wholesale, block revert of my edits? That is, after all, what edit notes are for -- and this discussion page. So, let's start with the first edit I made which you reverted. It involves the placement of commas. How is it flawed, Bachmann? Come on. Out with it. It's a simple edit. Your reversion of it should be equally simple to explain. Let's have it, Bachmann. I'm waiting. deeceevoice 13:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Note: A post by Dbachmann tacked on 11 minutes later to the above post has been separated and repositioned below to more accurately reflect the nature of the discussion. deeceevoice 14:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
What? No response to my post yet, Bachmann? Not even an attempt at justifying the simplest revert in your block reversion of my edits? I made it easy for you. Explain the deletion of the commas. Let's stick to the issue at hand. Explain your reverts -- point by point -- just as I explained my edits when I made them. Time to put up or shut up. deeceevoice 13:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Deeceevoice is a well-known Afroentrist pov-pusher with no respect for Wikipedia fundamentals. It would be a waste of time to disect her edits one by one, because they are intended to be controversial. You reverted another editor. re-instating strawman illustrations. Statements like
(I removed that last comment because I thought it would simply cause an unproductive argument. I think we need to focus on making the article better and personal attacks like that don't help.) futurebird 14:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
great, dcv, now you have "repositionsed" things to the point of making it impossible for anyone to follow this. Look, if you don't want reasonable debate and npov, why don't you just spare everyone the bother and write a personal blog. This talkpage is in dire need of moderation. Editors cannot be expected to invest time in answering incoherent ramblings. dab (𒁳) 19:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There are quite a few citing Edward Wilmont Blyden's African Life and Customs, but it doesn't cite which publication, as there were a couple of re-pubs since the first book. So which book do the references refer? The first pub of 1908, or later? Please use {{ Cite book}} for proper formating and clarification on what citation refers for verification. Thanks. ~ Jeeny (talk) 22:26, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
The article is looking a lot better than it was before. Great job to all of you who are working on this article. Titanium Dragon 00:58, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
... to Wikidudeman for cleaning up the cites. Dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it. deeceevoice 11:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Afrocentricity developed in response to the pervasive Eurocentrism members of the African diaspora and Africans under colonial rule experienced when they were exposed to European ideas of history.
Deecee, I think I can find sources to support this, but I'd rather know why you feel it's controversial first? Admittedly, I just write it off the cuff, since I thought the section needed a better intro instead of just hitting people with the quotes right away. So, how should we change it? futurebird 14:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
In light of your concerns I've replaced the sentence with something else that is sourced. Let me know what you think of it. I don't know if the sources all agree with your description of Afrocentricity. These are issues that we need to discuss someplace in the article. When you get back from being banned (?) let me know what you think of the new version.
Afrocentricity is not merely a reactionary phenomenon; it is at its core and most importantly a different paradigm, one by its very nature that is often and quite naturally diametrically opposed to the Eurocentrist weltanschaung in which most Westerners have been indoctrinated. Understandably, perhaps, it is often viewed as reactionary.
What sources support this? I've found sources that say that it is reactionary in the sense that if histories had not become so Eurocentric in the first place there never would have been a need for Afrocentrism. futurebird ( talk) 21:53, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Those are facile assumptions that, while true in many instances, militate against the very nature of human curiousity and intellectual inquiry. If there were never any history written, people would write it eventually. One need not have been exposed to Eurocentrist lies in order to search for truth about one's people's true past. And, having been exposed to Eurocentrist lies does not mean, ipso facto, that such myths/falsehoods are the raison d'etre of someone's interest/drive to examine the original historical record and determine the truth for oneself. It's perfectly normal and natural for someone to be motivated to do so absent any outside factors. Such is the nature of the human mind and scholarly inquiry. deeceevoice ( talk) 15:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikidudeman (talk) 17:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually, no. It obviously doesn't mean that, WDM. It simply means it requires substantiation by an acceptable, verifiable source. If you have a problem with it, then put a fact tag on it, and someone will get to it. I'm not sure I get your point about Wek. The caption states she is Dinka, and as such, hers is a suitable example to illustrate just what others are wrong-headedly calling "Caucasoid." per the Diop quote. IMO, it certainly belongs in the article. If someone wants to add something about the DRT, then fine. But it's not appropriate to arbitrarily delete it with some excuse that it's somehow POV. deeceevoice 18:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I would like to encourage everyone to keep their tempers at bay and cool their exchanges. I think this talk page could use more civility right now.
Second, here's how I see the situation: it seems some editors see Afrocentrism as merely a "social movement", a politics totally disconnected from any possible connection to academic endeavor. Other see Afrocentrism (or Afrocentricity - I'm not particular about this bit of semantics) as partly a social movement, but one whose better ideas has also permeated legitimate academia, thereby changing in some measure recent views of history, among other things (and please - I'm no expert, so I may be missing things, but I'm just trying to sum up everything to everyone's benefit). Therefore, I'm wondering if any editors (surmising my appreciation of each position isn't entirely wrong) could supply additional references to substantiate exactly their position. Otherwise, I think we're doomed to suffer quite a bit more of unnecessary POV-slinging before we can sort this out. It's also possible that both are competing views of Afrocentrism, and that both shuld be presented side by side; like I said, I'm no expert. The only thing I know is that this battle about who's right and who's wrong shouldn't be allowed to continue longer.-- Ramdrake 19:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it needs to be protected.
In response to Ramdrake: That's just the problem. Afrocentricity isn't monolithic. It has changed over time. At at any given time it has carried multiple means ranging from political concerns to the purely academic. There is plenty of material in the article to support this view and it is sourced. Read the article carefully and look at the sources that are there. I've sent out an email to a Black Studies listserv to get feedback for additional sources. As these come in I'm reading them and adding them. I think that if we sort the data by the time it was published a better image of what this topic has been over time will emerge. futurebird 19:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I think Dbm thinks of Afrocentricity only with respect to it's most extreme claims, those extreme claims have been there all along, just as you can find astronomers who think there's life on Mars. (they have evidence! it could be true! But, it's just a side show that steals attention away from the real less glamorous scholarship.) But some of the early ideas are so basic, that it's hard to see that they were once radical now. For example the radical idea that: African people have cultures. In many ways the early work is the most "main stream" because some, but not all of the racism has gone away. In some ways as aspects of Afrocentricity are accepted and become mainstream, they lose the title "Afrocentricity" so all that remains in the real wild stuff about Egyptians with gliders. And, at this point, you can pinpoint most of that stuff to a few folks in the 70s and 80s. To some people the word just means "radical ideas about Africa" and depending on the context what is "radical" has changed. futurebird 20:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I want to get this article unprotected but this can only happen if it is agreed that no edit warring will occur on it. Would you all agree to a 1 revert rule on the article? 1 revert of the same material per week. This means that if material is added and then reverted only once, no other editor can re-add it for a week. Would you all agree to this stipulation? Please sign your name here in agreement or in disagreement. Wikidudeman (talk) 15:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
deeceevoice 15:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC) If you want to know why, we can discuss.
First, WDM got off on the wrong foot by sending me a note about this, along with Wikidudeman -- and no one else -- as thought I was guilty of edit warring, when I did absolutely nothing of the sort.
Second, I've been here long enough to know how issues like this attract antagonistic and racist elements which are plentiful here on the website. They glomb on to an article and engage in tag-team edit warring, oftentimes openly handing off to other edit warriors, as if in a POV-pushing relay, in order to avoid breaking the 3RR, to block reversions as in the case of the Giza Sphinx article. Also, in contentious articles it's very easy to mistakenly break the 3RR, even while not intending to edit war at all. I know I myself have done it. Hell, I've been accused of edit warring here. Oh, yes. And "trolling". lol
So, I think the idea, though possibly well-intentioned, sux. Hay-o to the naw! ;p deeceevoice 16:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Not convinced. You started off wrong and not being straight up. I don't trust you or the process you propose. deeceevoice 16:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict)
deeceevoice, I don't believe that's true. I placed the note on this page at 11:11, 15 November 2007 and your note on your talk page asking why I selected you out was on 11:21, 15 November 2007, 10 minutes later. I placed the note here before you ever asked why I only left the note to you and Dbachmann. Wikidudeman (talk) 16:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Let's try it for just 2 weeks to see if it works. If you agree then Dbachmann would be the only one not agreeing and it would show that you at least want to try something to resolve conflicts with this article and improve it. If you don't think that my scenario will work then please explain to me an alternative. We can't do nothing and then wait for the article to be unprotected and then have it protected again due to edit warring, regardless of who is doing it or who isn't. So either let's try it for two weeks or you come up with an alternative way we can get this article unprotected and improved. Wikidudeman (talk) 16:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me, WDM, but I don't have to do a single, freakin' thing to demonstrate my willingness to resolve conflict here. I didn't edit war. I didn't troll. I wasn't being disruptive. It seems you're pressuring the wrong individual here. Your efforts are misdirected/wasted here. I suggest you start at the source of the problem: DBachmann: "Don't start none, won't be none." deeceevoice 16:50, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The admin even went so far as to leave a 3RR warning on my page -- clearly inappropriate. Frankly, I just don't think they were paying close attention. Chalk it up to inexperience?
In answer to your question, fb, one can edit war without violating the 3RR. That's simply a guideline and a metric for enforcement. What dBachmann did was clearly edit warring, clearly arrogant, clearly disruptive. And when he didn't get his way, he got huffy and bitchy and unilaterally slapped a tag on the article two (or three?) days after another editor left a note on this page complimenting the editors for the improvements made in the article. deeceevoice 16:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Fb, if you think WDM's idea is "too strict," and if you agree that the admin jumped the gun, then why are you still signed on? (edit conflict) deeceevoice 17:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm doing this because I want to move forward, and I can work with it if it makes people feel better. I'm flexible. I think WDM has good intentions, even if we don't agree about a heap of things. :P futurebird 17:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, but I might have done that. It bugs me when tags get removed without a reason and there were all of the deletions that WDM made that you put back-- I think he had a point in a few cases, but was overzealous in removing things. But, we're addressing that, right? BTW, do you have a source for that photo? The link to the "DNA TREE" is dead so it needs a source. I don't know, what's the worst that can happen? An edit war stars and the article is protected again? Let's move on... WDM has a POV but he's nota "pusher" (everyone has a POV IMHO) futurebird 17:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict)
I know you called in the admin, Ramdrake. I looked it up. And, no. She didn't warn "everybody in sight." And she accused me of being close to violating the 3RR rule, which I wasn't. Furthermore, getting out of our "comfort zones"? Hell, I stay laid-back. And I'm fine with the way things are. And unless and until WDM engages the unruly, hostile DBachmann, the cause of this silly situation, at length about this the way he's bugging me to go along to get along, then I got absolutely nothing more say on the matter. This whole thing is bogus. II intend to keep on editing the way I have been, improving the article and acting in good faith. You guys can do whatever floats your boat. deeceevoice 18:26, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Just read your edits, look good to me, but pray tell, what is the difference between African studies and Africana studies? Care to enlighten me? Thx!-- Ramdrake 13:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
“ | Whilst acknowledging that the ancient Egyptian population was 'mixed', a fact confirmed by all the anthropological analyses, writers nevertheless speak of an Egyptian 'race', linking it to a well defined human type, the white, 'Hamitic' branch, also called 'Caucasoid', 'Mediterranean', 'Europid' or 'Eurafricanid'. There is a contradiction here: all the anthropologists agree in stressing the sizeable proportion of the Negroid element--almost a third and sometimes more--in the ethnic [i.e. biological] mixture of the ancient Egyptian 'population', but nobody has yet defined what is meant by the term 'Negroid', nor has any explanation been proffered as to how this Negroid element, by mingling with a 'Mediterranean' component often present in smaller proportions, could be assimilated into a purely Caucasoid race." - Jean Vercoutter [1] | ” |
Where should this quote go? I don't think we need it. My reasoning is he's talking about race in biological terms and the concern of nearly every Afro centrist is cultural influence, not race. Ideas? futurebird 14:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Such results however, are generally misleading. Many scholars have noted the fallacies of typological thinking as it concerns indigenous eastern African populations. The inhabitants of East Africa right on the equator have appreciably longer, narrower, and higher noses than people in the Congo at the same latitude, features that are sometimes erroneously labeled " Caucasoid". However, such features have always been indigenous to Saharo-tropical African and many anthropologists point out that there's nothing to suggest that these populations are closely related to "Caucasoids" of Europe and western Asia. [2] Indeed, genetic analyses have indicated that Somali people in particular, are overwhelmingly indigenous. The male Somali population is a branch of the East African population − closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya − with predominant E3b1 cluster lineages that were introduced into the Somali population 4000−5000 years ago, and that the Somali male population has approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia and approximately 5% from other parts of sub-Saharan Africa. Thus, determining that Somalis and those in the Horn of Africa are of the Elongated African type. [3] Similarly, Ethiopians are found to share maternal lineages in common with both sub-Saharan Africa and Eurasia. Both Ethiopians and Yemenis contain an almost-equal proportion of Eurasian-specific M and N and African-specific lineages. [4]However, even these results may prove misleading since a great number of geneticists cite M1 lineages as being native to and emerging in Ethiopia some 60,000 years ago. [5]
This long discussion of DNA, and the length of Caucasoid noses isn't related to Afrocentricity. The sources say nothing about Afrocentricity. Including this paragraph may be original research. (and to be honest I don't know what point it is trying to make?)
futurebird
15:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I thought that was oK because it was an example of what the Diop quote was talking about. The point of this section isn't to answer questions about DNA or race, it is to explain what the Afrocentrists were objecting to when they objected to the definitions of race at the time. But we should show that these view are not around as much anymore. So we should add part of it back. futurebird 15:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, It says "According to Neil Risch of Yale "East African groups, such as Ethiopians and Somalis, have great genetic resemblance to Caucasians and "are clearly intermediate between sub-Saharan Africans and Caucasians"." Then it says: "Today, in agreement with the Afrocentric view, many anthropologists point out that there's nothing to suggest that these populations are closely related to "Caucasoids" of Europe and western Asia.". So which is it? Are Ethiopians and Somalis genetically similar to Caucasians or are they not? The second sentence gives the impression that it is contemporary and the previous ones aren't yet the one from Risch is about 3 decades more recent than the second one. Wikidudeman (talk) 16:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay, that's my mistake. Let me see if I can fix the wording. futurebird 16:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
In the last paragraph here and in other places, the article sets up Arnold Toynbee as a great Eurocentric person to do battle with. This weakens the article. First of all, the Wikipedia article on him shows that he wasn't that influential, and secondly, he did his major work before 1961. He doesn't seem that significant.---- Parkwells ( talk) 19:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
This is one of the reasons that I'm trying to reframe this article in such a way that it shows how Afrocentricity has changed over time. The criticisms of toynbee require historical context. (I also think this section is just way too long.) But in general I agree. -- futurebird ( talk) 20:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The article would be more substantive if it dealt with sources and criticism other than Time magazine. It doesn't represent scholarly work, but rather the effort to make ideas more sensational for popular consumption.---- Parkwells ( talk) 19:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
What source would you suggest? Time isn't the only one mentioned. I shortened the emphasis on the Time article, are you saying we should remove it? I think it's fine, these ideas aren't just academic, the public perception if the ideas is also a part of the story. I had some criticism from an Afrocentrist of Afrocentrism that deeceevoice removed, perhaps we should put it back? Let me find it so both of you can weigh in on this. -- futurebird ( talk) 20:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Cain Hope Felder, a supporter of Afrocentric ideas writes that it is important for Afrocentrists to avoid certain pitfalls. [6] These include:
- Demonizing categorically all white people, without careful differentiation between persons of goodwill and those who consciously perpetuate racism.
- Adopting multiculturalism as a curricular alternative that eliminates, marginalizes, or vilifies European heritage to the point that Europe epitomizes all the evil in the world.
- Gross over-generalizations and using factually or incorrect material is bad history and bad scholarship. [6]
Here it is, should we restore it? -- futurebird ( talk) 20:45, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
That's where it is. There seem to be a fair number of people who don't "get" that many Afrocentrists are serious and that Afrocentrists are also disturbed by bad scholarship. I know what you mean, though. It's really BASIC stuff and a little silly that it needs to be said at all. futurebird ( talk) 15:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Let's keep this simple. The opening paragraph needs to be edited, because it gives no specific context for "Afrocentrism". Afrocentrism is something that is relevant in Africa - as the definition says African issues should be central. If it is not within Africa, it is racial supremacy, commonly known as racism and therefor demands a much less idealistic style. As the only white person who seems to acknowledge that black people can be racist too (usually more so) I will be the one to step up and tell you that this article should be treated with more skepticism. Unless, of course, it is a phenomenon wholly confined to Africa, in which case it is perfectly and, in my opinion, totally justified. But then the article needs a rewrite.
This section starts with a lengthy quote that appears to be suggesting it's the current state of Afrocentric thinking, but the author isn't identified, nor are we told on the page (not in the reference) why we should pay attention to this person - what is his role? Why should we care? Similarly, Kunjufu is noted later in the section, but not why we should pay attention to him. You need to help out all readers, not just those who might already be familiar with the topic. ---- Parkwells ( talk) 19:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Chancellor Williams - Although his book was noted in this section of "80s and 90s", it turned out he first published the book in 1971, which puts it in a much different timeframe/context. I don't know how much he added to it in the years in between the first and second version, which was published in 1987, according to the note. That's nearly a generation of life and thinking. He was born in the 19th c., so was shaping his book from an earlier mindset.---- Parkwells ( talk) 22:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I still have the book, so I'll go back to the article when I return after Thanksgiving and see how these writers are characterized. Williams' book was trailblazing, and I always got the impression the second edition of TDBC hadn't changed significantly from the first, as I stated above. But I'll let you know. deeceevoice ( talk) 03:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
In noting the work of Drusilla Dunjee Houston, the section doesn't say anything about how her work has held up. Is it supposed to be substantive, as Du Bois' was, or an inspirational assessment/personal meditation on what that civilization might have been like? Scholars are always looking over and revising past opinions. When I looked up information about Houston, this site < http://voices.cla.umn.edu/vg/Bios/entries/houston_drusilla_dunjee.html> noted that Houston didn't include any notes or bibliography with her work. So, can it be considered a contribution to historical thinking? A contemporary scholar is trying to add those sections for republication. ---- Parkwells ( talk) 19:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The fact that 19th c. scholars made mistakes (as in directions of migration movements out of or into Africa) doesn't always mean that they were totally biased and always had evil intent. There were many mistakes made by 19th c. scholars. Aren't there any critics who note that some of the proponents of Afrocentrism are sounding a lot like the original biased Europeans themselves? That point of view doesn't appear here. Surely we can do better than an attempt to get rid of "all European and Arab influences" and focus on "Africa only", whatever that is supposed to mean. If people study history, linguistics, archeology or art, or almost anything seriously, it becomes obvious that peoples were always on the move (at least traders and marauders were), trading languages, arts, foods, sex, etc. for tens of thousands of years. There weren't those simple separations. Yes , from family to tribe to clan, each group likes to claim it is the center of the universe, and we all see the world through a screen. ---- Parkwells ( talk) 20:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
There was no note taken of the fact that the person calling for a return to true Africa - language, culture, government, etc. got a master's at Catholic U. in Washington, DC and practices as a priest in Charleston, West VA. Does that affect (or should it?) what we think of his views? How does he explain his decision to work in the US instead of Nigeria? Does he tell American children to return to true African values? Some of these views sound a lot like the resistance to change by nativist Americans in the early 20th c. US, as society was changed by major population movements within the country, and major new groups of immigrants to it. When do Afrocentrists define the "true Africa"? how do you keep that from changing? Societies (and individuals) go through cycles of renewal and trying to reach back to past values, but they can't hold back change.---- Parkwells ( talk) 20:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I've made some changes that I hope makes it more clear that the views expressed are those of some Afrocentrists. There defiantly was one sentence in there that need to be qualified. I honestly see nothing wrong with the last paragraph, it's what the sources say, and it says that that is how some of them describe the movement. It's not like it just says "Afrocentrism is multicultural" it says "some Afrocentrists view the movement as multicultural" you can't really dispute that. How is that POV? -- futurebird ( talk) 22:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Moreschi, if you're going to continue to sit in judgment on the well-intentioned work of the editors here, then it would be helpful if you would adopt a tone that does not mock their contributions, that is not snide, condescending or patronizing. Show some common courtesy, please. deeceevoice ( talk) 03:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Given the conflicts here I won't make any edits to the article itself just yet. But I do have two suggestions to make the lead paragraph more NPOV.
Before "Afrocentricity," add "they view" and change the "is" to "as" (or find some other way to make identify whose view this is.
I think that in between these two sentences you need another sentence attributing to someone the view that Afrocentrism is ethnoicentric. Doing this would add another (critical) view. But unless you add something like this, the subsequent sentence is a non-sequitor. It seems like there are two distinct criticisms of Afrocentrism:first, that it is pseudohistory, second, that it is ethnocentric. These may be related criticisms but I think they are still distinct criticisms. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:45, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Would it make sense to distinguish between Afrocentrism as a social movement and as an intellectual movement? I know that they are connected but based on admittedly limited knowledge I thought that civic and political leaders, compared to academics, often have different agendas and are subject to different kinds of criticisms. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Paul: that Afrocentrism is an idelogical model or ('paradigm' if you prefer) that was constructed to provide diaspora Africans (mainly, in fact, African-Americans) with a model of cultural identity centred in Africa
That's not the primary purpose and certainly not the only purpose. Afrocentrists would argue that Afrocentricity is just as important for people of all races/ethnicities who want to understand African history and the diaspora. For example, the Afrocentric method as can be used in researching African indigenous culture. (See: Using the Afrocentric Method in Researching Indigenous African Culture Queeneth Mkabela The Qualitative Report Volume 10 Number 1 March 2005 178-189 )
Metaphors of location and dislocation are the principal tools of analysis as research situations and researchers are seen as displaying various forms of centeredness. To be centered is to be located as an agent instead of as "the Other." Such a critical shift in thinking means that the Afrocentric perspective provides new insights and dimensions in the understanding of African indigenous culture, in a multicultural context.
So, in other words, it's a method for getting more accurate higher quality research. Or, at least, that's the goal. This isn't about feelings.
The therapeutic aspect of Afrocentricity for members of both African and Diaspora communities (it's not just about African Americans) is not, by any means, the only objective. I added some information about how, in the 80s and 90s, the therapeutic idea was in vogue, it was mostly conservative Afrocentrists who didn't even see the connections between Diaspora cultural developments like Hip Hop and African culture. I'd guess that not many Afrocentrists even agree with that idea anymore. (In fact they are more likely to look for Manifestations of Afrocentricity in Rap Music See: Howard Journal of Communications, Volume 13, Issue 1 January 2002 , pages 59 - 76) To say that African Americans are culturally poor is just as bad as the early Eurocentrists who found Africans culturally poor. So, it would be incorrect to represent the movement as primarily therapeutic and only for African Americans.
Though, I do understand you concern that it won't be clear that ideas are coming from certain sources and perspectives, though that is remedied easily enough by simply mentioning the source. I agree that the feminism article could be a good model. I think it is the correct approach to try to place most of the ideas in to a historical time-line for context. futurebird ( talk) 13:31, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
"You seem to want redefine Africentrism according to your personal view of what it is, or what it has become."
Paul, that's not my intention. I am concerned that the article will fail to show the many forms that Afrocentricity takes by making blanket statements about its purpose, this would not agree with some of the sources. These sources happen to be the most recent (post 2000) publications that discuss Afrocentricity. That's why I made the section called "contemporary" What I'm gathering from my research is that Afrocentricity has changed significantly. Ethnocentric Afrocentricities need to be placed in context. Therapeutic Afrocentricities need to be placed in context. Don't leave anything out, but also don't describe Afrocentricity as if it was just one thing, and we describe ideas that are no longer in circultion we need to make it clear that they come from a time period that may have influenced their content and approach.
But what is distinctively Afrocentric about the argument is the claim that "centreredness" in African culture is crucial."
Yes, exactly, do you know if there is much controversy about this approach when dealing with African people? (I don't know off hand.)
If you are redefining Afrocentrism to mean simply "objective scholarship about Africa and disapora African identity", then this vacates the word of any meaning and effectively allows you to block out both the problematic aspects of the tradition and what distinguishes it from exactly the same developments in relation to non-African cultures.
I don't want to get too sidetracked and philosophical, but isn't the closet thing you can get to objective scholarship an amalgamation of multiple perspectives, since every history is written with some perspective or "center"? Hence a multiculturalist historian who agreed with my last statement would say that the Afrocentric method is a necessary part of complete scholarship and without it the picture is incomplete less accurate and objective. What I have just stated is a view of the place of Afrocentricity-- I think we should represent this view. (along with others, if we have sources for them)
The quotation is potentially useful to include, say in comparison to the rather more extreme claims of Hoskins, but I suggest that it should bpart of a wider discussion of this concept of centredness and the scholarly and political claims made for it.
Okay, sounds fair.
Also, all the stuff from Hume and others is really really marginal. We all know that many Western intellectuals though Africans were inferior. We don't need great chunks of text repeating the same point.
I don't know if people know that. I think it's really important to include it because it helps people to understand why there had to be a whole movement-- It adds context. But, I'll see what the other editors think. futurebird ( talk) 14:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
PaulB and Futurebird provide distinct views as to the origins and functions of Afrocentrism. Can both agree that any view supported by a verifiable source should be represented in the article? In some cases it is not either/or but this and that (because Wikipedia is concerned not with "the truth" but with all notable views). That said, I would ask if PaulB can provide other sources besides EB. We are engaged in the same endeavor as the authors of EB - writing an encyclopedia. We have an NOR and V policy because our articles are only as good as their sources. In this spirit, I think the value of an EB article is not that it claims that Afrocentrism exists for reason x, but that their article hopoefully has a list of sources we can draw on ourselves. If the EB article does not provide its sources, well, then I am not satisfied using it as an authoritative source for a notable view. If EB were the definitive encyclopedia, then there would be no point at all to our working on a competing project. I am not dismissing the view PaulB wants included in this article. I am saying that if it is a truly notable view then we should be able to cite better sources than EB, I mean, books published by academic presses or articles in peer-reviewed journals.
Now, let's say that PaulB and Futurebird have plenty of sources to show that Afrocentrism emerged in part as a cultural expression of the African diaspora, and in part as a movement in academia to correct a Eurocentric bias (I happen to know this is true because i know Martin Bernal, retired professor of Near Eastern studies and author of Black Athena who is not only not black, he is very proud of his Irish heritage; his book is explicitly an example of the view Futurebird invokes). Can we go back to my point bout the organization of this article? My question is, instead of talking about "Afrocentrism" might it not make more sense to talk about "Afrocentrisms" i.e. a set of related, at times intersecting or overlapping, but nevertheless diverse (in origins, proponents, propositions, functions and objectives) movements? If so, could this article be better-organized to make this clear 9and to lay out for editors areas that need more work)? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Two of the most important sections - "Role of Ancient Egypt" and "Eurocentrism" - come AFTER the chronological development of ideas within Afrocentrism. When you look at the references, however, you see that many of the ideas of these two sections developed in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. This was the time of intellectual ferment also caused by revisionist historians looking at the roles of minorities, women and working class (also influenced by earlier French intellectuals); intellectual historian Edward Said's 1979 "Orientalism"; and paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man", which showed how cultural biases distorted "scientific" measurement and conclusions. All efforts are human.
Because of this placement, though, we revisit ideas that were developed in earlier times (and only know that IF we look at every reference). Also, the argument/discussion seems to go in circles. I think both these sections have to be moved up much earlier in the article.
Also, I still find it confusing from the article - as it stands - to try to figure out just WHAT people in the Afrocentric movement thought WHEN about Egypt. These ideas have really taken hold popularly, wrong or right.
It appears that many Egyptologists don't think there is much reason to believe that Egyptians were black as we understand it, but that message isn't very clear. Other scholars have clearly shown that Afrocentric claims of "Aristotle stealing from the Alexandria Library" couldn't have happened.
I made better written comments here this morning which I lost by failing to save properly. If you want me to work at reorganizing the article, I will.-- Parkwells ( talk) 15:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I tried to reorganize this, but it needs supplementation. I think the ideas about culture have to be separated from the ideas (and evidence) about physical characteristics or "race". To me they seem to be mixed in almost every paragraph, and it's impossible to understand what people were referring or responding to. I reordered it somewhat to put earlier thinkers (as shown by references) earlier in the section. In these cases of archeology and other studies, I think it's important to show within the article when people were writing or thinking. It is still unbalanced, but this is a start. It shoudl not be ending with conclusions of an early-mid 20thc. historian set against someone writing in the 1990s. Also, the reference to "writing through the centuries" about Egypt's contribution to Mediterranean culture is pretty vague. I'm not sure what it means, although I took a stab at historiography-- Parkwells ( talk) 16:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC).
The early (in chronology) Afrocentric cultural claims/beliefs about Egypt or groups of Africans such as Somalis can't be equated as equivalent and just as good to "believe" as later physical evidence derived from DNA and archeology. The last paragraph of this section particularly goes in circles as it goes through some ideas/claims in almost chronological fashion, but then in almost the last sentence refers to a scholar writing in 1974, when more recent DNA evidence seems to have overturned his theories of anthropology. So I ended up confused again there, just when I thought I was getting it.-- Parkwells ( talk) 15:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
That last paragraph is awful. I tried to fix it... but... it's still a mess. So, I agree, I only ask that when you re-organize things that you not delete anything that's sourced (at least initially) without posting it on the talk page. I've been working hard to add sources and tidbits and I want to know if anything gets deleted. (I mean maybe some of it needs to go, but I just want to know...)
That said, I'm all for both of your ideas, we should try to re-factor each of these sections in to the sections on history. futurebird ( talk) 15:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
"Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North. See Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge History of Africa (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982), vol I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54."
Do we need this? Where should it go if anywhere? futurebird ( talk) 16:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I assume someone put it there and it made sense at the time. That's why I'm asking. I don't just want to delete it without finding out if it ought to be moved to some section. I don't see how it's connected to the topic except tangentially. futurebird ( talk) 16:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
People are infinitely stupid and don't have reasons for saying or doing things. But what I hate here is people trying to intellectualize Egyptian ethnicity when they are clearly not Egyptian. I hate these people. If you're not from Egypt, you truly have no right whatsoever to an opinion on whether Egypt is African or not. that debate is founded on two things: what is African (should it be "Subsahara" instead?) and what is Egypt. Most Egyptians do not call themselves African inasmuch as identifying with distant lands such as Capo Verde and South Africa. Greece is in a similar position with Europe. However, and finally: If you are excluding Egypt on the basis of race then you are admitting that "Afrocentrism" is in fact a racist term that discriminates between blacks and whites. This is all very stupid. Sort it out.
I've added to the introduction here to provide context for what was originally a Western Hemisphere argument among intellectuals and leaders - of course it also had political implications, and added some events to provide background.-- Parkwells ( talk) 14:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
In the West and elsewhere, the European, in the midst of other peoples, has often propounded an exclusive view of reality; the exclusivity of this view creates a fundamental human crisis. In some cases, it has created cultures arrayed against each other or even against themselves. Afrocentricity’s response certainly is not to impose its own particularity as a universal, as Eurocentricity has often done. But hearing the voice of African American culture with all of its attendant parts is one way of creating a more sane society and one model for a more humane world. Asante, M. K. (1988). Afrocentricity. Trenton, NJ: Africa World Press Inc. Page 28
I'm reading this quote as "Asante thinks that the Eurcentric world view is one where there is only one world view, but the Afrocentric world view acknowledges that other views exists." Is that what he's saying?
In theory, Asante sees Afro-centricity involving the interpretation analysis from the perspective of African people as subjects rather than objects. In practice, Afrocentric principles are used to interpret and explain issues in the search for understanding within the historical context associated with underrepresented groups overlooked for generations. On the rhetoric of Afrocentricity. Journal article by Karen Strother-Jordan; The Western Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 26, 2002
futurebird ( talk) 00:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The repeated complaint for Afrocentrists is that all things related to African people and their decedents are underrepresented as serious foci of study in "traditional western scholarship" --when research is done about topics related to Afrian and diaspora people it is often clinical in nature (statistical surveys of test scores, crime, poverty) there is in the opinion of Afrocentrists far less work exploring diaspora cultures and their relations to African cultures. So, research the explores these kinds of questions is often labeled "Afrocentric" Here is an abstract:
Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 35, No. 6, 730-750 (2005)
DOI: 10.1177/0021934704268575
© 2005 SAGE Publications
Afrocentricity, the Adae Festival of the Akan, African American Festivals, and Intergenerational Communication
Yaw Owusu-Frempong
University of Ghana
African American communities celebrate different kinds of festivals each year, but little has been published on this subject. This article is intended to fill part of the vacuum, demonstrating the importance and functions of African festivals and their relationship with contemporary African American festivals. African festivals are a tool of community gathering and unity and place us at the center of our culture and social environment. They are also a medium of cultural education and intergenerational communication and play an important role in the preservation of our cultural heritage, transmitting knowledge and our experiences as a people to future generations. The celebration of festivals in the African American communities must not be seen merely as an annual congregation of street and food vendors, marching bands, and musicians but also as a tool of cultural reconstruction and transmission of knowledge to the younger generation.
Key Words: Afrocentricity • African festivals • Akan festivals • intergenerational communication
Notice that Afrocentricity is not mentioned in the title of the paper, or in the abstract, but it is a key word. That is because the kind of scholarship that this abstract describes: one that catalogs what one group of diaspora people do culturally, and one that compares it to African traditions is by nature "Afrocentric scholarship." One could also look at African American festivals and compare them to traditions in Europe. We would find many parallels there too, and in fact, an european standard has often been used to asses the degree of assimilation of African Americans in to the broader American culture. But if we want to understand the entire history we also need the Afrocentric perspective. I think that's the idea here.
I bring this up to point out that not all Afrocentric scholarship carried the label explicitly. Not all sources will agree that ANY research that looks at African influence in by nature Afrocentric-- But this is one interoperation of the topic. futurebird ( talk) 00:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The Journal isn't always Afrocentric, though it has carried many articles and argue both in favor of and against Afrocentric ideas. It's been around for about 25 years and article it in are cited regulary by scholrs writing in other more famous JOurnals. Here is information from the publisher, Sage Publications, Inc. they publish a few other journals which all seem to be pretty reputable.
Bu um, you're right, the word is in the paper, I don't know why I missed it. (?) Here is where this is all coming from: I asked about this topic on a listserv for black studies if "Afrocentricity was still important" one of the responses I got from a few people was "there is a lot of Afrocentric research going on today, people just don't always call it that, because some view the term as political." This seems reasonable enough, but I'm looking for a real source that might back such a claim up, (if true.) One thing I've noticed is the use of the term "Africa centered" (possibly) in place of Afrocentricity. Take a look at this. Do you see what I mean? futurebird ( talk) 04:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I'm confused. It talks about Eurocentrism as a problem then talks about taking an "Africa centered" approach:
I argue for the possibility of confronting Western bias and contributing to broader theoretical debates by creating theoretical constructs derived from the African experience.
That is text book Afrocentricity if anything ever was. What would it need to say in your opinion to be "Afrocentric" ? futurebird ( talk) 05:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
What Myers is doing is explaining the urban development of Ng'ambo through concepts derived from what the inhabitants themselves think about their city; this is a sound ethnographic principle, but there's nothing particularly Afrocentric about it.
Here is a description of the Afrocentric method for researching indigenous African cultures:
From a research point of view Asante argues that Afrocentricity can have a significant impact upon the way African researchers view their identity, specifically considering the African people as centred, located, oriented, and grounded. Afrocentricity is therefore a philosophical and theoretical perspective that when applied to research can form the essential core of the idea. In terms of research outcomes the issue of cultural location takes precedence over the topic or the data under consideration. The argument is that Africans have been moved off of social, political, philosophical, and economic terms for half a millenium. Consequently it becomes necessary to examine all data from the standpoint of Africans as subjects and human agents rather than as objects in a European frame of reference. Of course, this means that Afrocentricity has implications for indigenous African culture. Here, the motifs of locations and constituents of centredness or de-centredness become important when using the Afrocentric method.
Using the Afrocentric Method in Researching Indigenous African Culture The Qualitative Report Volume 10 Number 1 March 2005 178-189
But isn't this the same thing? If not, how is it different? futurebird ( talk) 06:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree and I can see that what you're saying was true for some Afrocentrists in the past, but I was under the impression that Pan-Africanism and Afrocentricity are distinct. Do you have any recent sources that talk about the things you're mentioning? I'd rather use a 3rd party source instead of trying to guess the intentions of Mkabela and other from the text. I'm prepared to learn something new that contradicts everything I "know" from experience but I need to see a source for it. I'm going to look around myself. (What I expect that we may find is that some pan-africanism is still alive but that most scholars avoid it.)
I wouldn't want to deny that there's some similarity between what Mkabela and Myers are saying, but the aim of getting away from Eurocentrism and expanding the discussion to include indigenous points of view is common to many scholarly approaches. Almost any historian who deals with Africa is going to treat Africans "as subjects and human agents rather than as objects"; if they don't, they're bad historians.
But it wasn't always like this, right? With respect to the study of African cultures did Afrocentricity play any role in this change in scholarly methods or is the movement entirely irrelevant to the contemporaneous shift from object to agent in these fields? I mean, it's not like only black people read W.E.B. ... For example, here is a paper on how Langston Gwaltney's Afrocentric reserach had an influence on African American anthropology. (Gwaltney's Influence on African American Anthropology by Cheryl Rodriguez. Transforming Anthropology. July 1998, Vol. 7, No. 2, pp. 71-72) Do you think there are other examples? futurebird ( talk) 13:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay I think we've come to a point where we can agree. It's not my intention to rope all research under the heading of Afrocentricity, rather, I just think we could point out that some of the research that is called Afrocentric is almost indistinguishable from "normal good ethnography" -- What do you think of my recent additions from Glazer? He's no fan of Afrocentricity, but I found that in his book he acknowledged a lot of the things that we've been talking about. futurebird ( talk) 18:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Likewise, religious movements such as Vodou are now less likely to be characterized as "mere superstition", but understood in terms of links to African traditions. Scholars who adopt such approaches may or may not see their work as Afrocentrist in orientation.
Could someone please list their source for that little tid-bit?? I know nothing of the topic, but, it seems plausible and in line with the other types of research I've documented, but the "citation needed" tag is bugging me. futurebird ( talk) 03:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Really for this article all we'd need is some evidence that the topic was being investigated from an Africa-centered view point. futurebird ( talk) 04:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Obviously things are much more complex, and this article should really pay more attention to Afrocentrism's historical origins and contextualizing it in broader cultural and academic movements.
The ban on editing this article, as well as the one-year block have been lifted temporarily with the proviso that I do not edit article main spaces. I understand that to mean actual articles. So, I feel free to add this.
The definition of Afrocentrism is far too narrow. It's curious that my change about it being a paradigm (called by Dbachmann "trolling" and "POV pushing") has been worded as though it is an opinion; it is not. It is widely recognized, even by the mainstream, across fields, as a paradigm. Further, my change was preparatory to a suggestion that the article be renamed to "Afrocentricity" and reworked to a more general framework, to begin with, with references to Afrocentric manifestations -- "Afrocentrism (history)," "Afrocentrism (education)," for example. Depending on the amount of information available, these could remain within the text of the article on Afrocentricity, or (more likely) split into separate articles.
But my ban and block preempted that effort.
I'm still preoccupied with deadlines (I'm taking a wiki break right now, goldbricking ;) ), so I haven't read the article. But it appears that much of the text is still useful, but the lead paragrahs would have to be completely rewritten -- and the subsequent information would have to be placed in proper context and the article completely reorganized.
I suggest you google "Afrocentric paradigm." You will find that a wide range of fields use the term, from those involved in providing social services, to historians, healthcare delivery, psychology, sociology, to -- you name it. (This may send some contrarian editors/overseers into proxysms of protest, or apoplectic fits, but, yes, my friends; it's a legit paradigm.
I have a variety of useful links I've turned up, if anyone is interested in investigating this highly mainstream acceptance of Afrocentricity as a paradigm and a model for working with peoples of Africa and the diaspora in education, social work, historical research, etc. deeceevoice ( talk) 14:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I do recall a while back that a visiting professor (whom I believe I enlisted from a contact I found in cyberspace) suggested a name change a while back, and that "Afrocentricity" did briefly exist as an article, but that it still focused solely on history, rather than approaching the subject as a paradigm for African peoples in which to operate, live, work and think -- and as a general framework for institutions and others who deal with African peoples to operate in. I think it might be useful to separate the two once again, because, while the terms are interchangeable in certain, if not most, contexts, "Afrocentricity" is the more value-neutral and generally not as politically charged, because it is more commonly used solely in professional, governmental and academic circles than Afrocentrism (not that the latter is not used in such contexts; it is) and has not been the subject of pop-culture media fodder and vitriolic debate poisoned by ignorance, racism, anti-black animus and those with political and social agendas -- much in the way "Ebonics" has been, as opposed to African American Vernacular English. deeceevoice ( talk) 14:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Paul. I couldn't remember his name. (I think I enlisted him, but I can't be sure. It easily could've been someone else for another article.) I returned from checking the edit history. This [1] version of the lead, dating back almost a year ago, is much closer to an accurate definition of "Afrocentricity"/"Afrocentrism". You will note, however, that it goes on to discuss history only. Still, it's a useful starting point. I'll see if I can remember what I did with that list of links....
I've got to get back to deadlines, but in the interim I suggest we all go back and read some of the old discussion threads, utilizing Spence's edit history, and contact him -- if he's still interested in the project -- to see if he'd like to contribute. deeceevoice ( talk) 15:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
It's always hard to identify where intellectual movements start and end. Some of the history shows activities/efforts in Africa, related in part to relationships to the whole colonization and Egyptologists.
It is interesting to note that there's been a lot of scholarship on Afrocentricity coming out of America and reflecting US experience, but maybe that's also because of the US intellectual structure - universities, plus the 60s and 70s having been filled with intellectual ferment and reworking of a lot of history due to a variety of factors. And people in the US trying to solve US problems.
There were a couple of themes going on - many groups saying they hadn't been represented in American history, and all this new work by historians on the experiences of African Americans, different ethnic groups, women - their stories/history, etc. from their own points of view and experience, much new work on labor history and the working class, immigration, etc. That shifted history and cultural studies from the 1960s on, and had precedents before.
Huge amounts of new work were done, including the beginning of more findings in African American archeology, especially in SC, which contributed to understanding the extent of African continuities in African American culture, as did the work in linguistics about Gullah. I know this wasn't defined as Afrocentricity and didn't mean the same thing - I just wanted to provide some perspective. People began to learn and see differently.
This started before Asante at Temple.
While Edward Said's (1978) book "Orientalism" was about a different topic,it had tremendous influence on history and cultural analysis of many sorts.
There were also changing ideas about continuity of cultures and the construction of cultures across the board. US historians starting looking less at evidence of American exceptionalism, which had operated for a long time in early histories as part of the nation's construction of its story of Revolution and triumph, and looking at continuities.
So David Hackett Fischer had a book of synthesis (1989) "Four British Folkways in America", in which he looked at continuities of cultures as they developed (and were expressed in naming patterns, housing, family formation, education, voting patterns through the 1960s, etc.) in New England, the Chesapeake Bay Colony and South, the Mid-Atlantic and the backcountry during colonial times. This was one slant.
Other historians and a variety of scholars were looking/appreciating cultural continuities among other groups, too, including accumulating work on African Americans, which was also in the US much influenced by the Civil Rights Movement, Black Power and other movements. There was new recognition, too, of W.E.B. Du Bois' history of "Black Reconstruction" and a reevaluation about Reconstruction and post-Civil War history. Don't mean to bring everything into it, but many strands played into the importance and rise of Afrocentricity.-- Parkwells ( talk) 16:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
But much of this work also focused on how all these groups created something new in the US - the music, the arts, the language, the literature, the foods, have been products of creolization - the creative back and forth among the different groups that takes place and has taken place no matter what theories are stirring above. Many historians have focused on that, too.-- Parkwells ( talk) 16:13, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
It's really looking good! I think the changes have added so much to readers being able to understand how Afrocentricity developed, and also how it has changed through the decades. -- Parkwells ( talk) 13:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I would also agree progress has been made. Thanks for your efforts. We will now soon be able to progress to the notorious Race of ancient Egyptians and address the question of identifying Afrocentrist material as separate from mainstream Egyptology. This may either result in an "In Afrocentrism" section there, or in a merge into this article, or again in the creation of a separate Afrocentrist Egyptology article. The important thing is that enough skeptical eyes remain directed hither. dab (𒁳) 16:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
If you need to talk about Egypt and race, please take it to that article and don't get into it here.-- Parkwells ( talk) 02:21, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
I would like to know what mainstream scholar sees ancient Egypt as more related to Semitic than the rest of Africa. Ancient Egyptian civlization definately had more in common culturally with Africans because of the notion of divine kingship,circumcision at puberty,and the rainmaker king. The late Egyptologist Frank Joseph Yurco upheld that ancient Egypt was not Semitic but African! Linguist Arnold Lorpenio place the modern Beja language as most related to ancient Egyptian.
The old view that some dyanstic race came from Western Asian and civilzed the ancient Egyptians is called the dyanstic race theory that has been discared.
I am editing in these facts.
Plus the early languages of the Fertile Crescent were not Semitic but a non-Semitic language know extinct.
First of all we need to establish what you mean by "Ancient Egyptians". You could be referring to any number of peoples who have lived there from the Hyksos, Nubians, Jews, Greeks, Romans, etc. There were definetly Semitic Egyptian dynasties. Also I would like to point out that just because a couple of scholars uphold an idea, that that means its true. There are scientists who say that the true Jews originated in Scandinavia, and if you believe that well... you've got some problems. Canutethegreat 22:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed some unsourced information from this article, as per our Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Futurebird has rather rudely reverted me, and without an edit summary at that. I will be removing the unsourced information again, and hope Futurebird uses the talk page to explain where, exactly, the sources for this information are. Picaroon (t) 03:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
this article is in an appalling state, and major cleanup is necessary.
dab (𒁳) 21:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Taking the pains to look through Linus A. Hoskins, Eurocentrism vs. Afrocentrism: A Geopolitical Linkage Analysis, Journal of Black Studies (1992), which I am now quoting in the lead from which it was linked (but which may be merged into the body in the course of the necessary restructuring), it becomes perfectly clear that Afrocentrism has nothing whatsoever to do with scholarship, and is a purely political ideology of ethnic mysticism. Not necessarily supremacism at all, but pure ideology untempered by research or rational criticism nevertheless. Seeing that the point is driven home even by proponents, it is simply no way to portray this otherwise. Detractors tend to focus on the intellectual muddleheadedness involved, but that, it goes without saying, is the hallmark of any ethnocentric ideology, not Afrocentrism in particular. Afrocentrism does elect to be unacademic, since academia together with rational criticism and the whole establishment grown out of the 17th century Age of Enlightenment is dismissed out-of-hand as un-African. Afrocentrism wants to argue "world history" based on subconscious notions of "Africanness". That makes it an ideology unamenable to academic criticism. Afrocentrists believe what they believe, and peace to them. There is no way, however, that we will portray this in any way related to the fields of actual history, archaeology or academic study of African culture. Now, seeing that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and that the very concept of encyclopedia is purely based in the 18th century Age of Reason, I really don't see why afrocentrists even bother with the project. Wikipedia, by the basic fact of its being an encyclopedia project, cannot write articles from the afrocentric point of view. It can and should report on afrocentrism, but any editor contributing to that needs to step out of their afrocentric world-view as incompatible with Wikipedia core principles, or else leave the project and express their opinions elsewhere. We ask precisely the same of any editor contributing to Christianity, Islam, Germanic mysticism and Atlantis, and most people seem to be able to grasp the concept. Now I am sure Gene Ray feels strongly about Time Cube, but there is no way Wikipedia will state "Religious Singularity is Evil" as an opinion as good as any other. See also the sword-skeleton theory ("experts are [eurocentric] scum"). dab (𒁳) 11:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
"Mainstream Afrocentriam" says that African cultures have had significant but not exceptional influence on the cultures of the world. It's essentially asking that African cultures not be exoticsied or treated as "primitive" but rather studied in the same manner as other cultures. And, frankly, the study of human history has experience a big change in this century with respect to how it views the influence of African cultures. In many ways "Afrocentriam has won." We don't need to claim that the Egyptians all looked like dark-skinned Black folks, or that brown skin has magic powers.
One of the most exciting projects is working on telling the history of colonialism from the perspective of the African nations involved in it, and piecing together the names and histories of those nations and calling them "nations" not "tribes" (when applicable.) Hence this kind of history is Afrocentric, because it includes the African perspective. It also relates to how African cosmology and philosophy are described. Not in terms if "fetish" and "superstition" but as "religion" and "philosophy" when it makes sense to do so.
As far as the whole thing about Eurocentrism being a "red-haring" --I mean, wow. That's a sheltered way of looking at it. Eurocentrism isn't an evil plot by white men in a dark room, it's just the way that history turns out when it's written mostly by people from Europe incorporating their local customs scholarship and tribal superstitions philosophies about Africa. Do you see what I mean?
That's what its about. futurebird 14:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
That interpretation stems largely from a misreading of multiculturalism as ethnocentric. When the word multiculturalism came into vogue, critics of the movement saw no distinction between Afrocentrism and ethnocentrism, on the one hand, and multiculturalism, on the other. Controversies over public school curricula in New York City in the early 1990s clarified the distinction. In 1990 the historian of education Diane Ravitch, opposing Afrocentrism in the public schools, distinguished it from pluralism but treated both as brands of multiculturalism. Yet she noted that Afrocentrism does not embrace a common culture. That distinction should have led her to dissociate multiculturalism from Afrocentrism since the existence of common cultural ground in a society—in this case, American society—is a fundamental issue. In debate with Afrocentrics, self-identified multiculturalists such as the public intellectual Henry Louis Gates Jr. have distanced themselves from Afrocentricism by insisting that European and mainstream American culture have shaped the culture and identity of people of African descent in the New World. It was not until the fallout from the debate on Afrocentrism in public schools and higher education that one leading Afrocentric scholar, Molefi Asante, saw the advantage of repacking Afrocentrism as a form of multiculturalism. Others, such as the late John Henrik Clarke, continued to see multiculturalism as a separate movement. By the mid-1990s, the debates between Gates and Asante had distinguished multiculturalism from Afrocentrism and ethnocentrism. http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jah/91.1/scott.html
futurebird, "Afrocentric work" isn't pseudoscholarship. It's non-scholarship. It's community work, political propaganda, a spiritual quest, or what have you. Only when it begins to pretend that it is scholarship does it become pseudo-scholarship. You can't have pseudo-scholarship without the pretense of being scholarly. Just studying African history isn't Afrocentrism, it's African history. Afrocentrism by merit of its core postulate of "Africanness" is a racialist ideology on exactly the same grounds as Nordicism or any other race-based worldview. Study of a notion of "Africanness" in African-Americans is a valid topic of African-American studies: it's about a cultural identity that exists in the real-life United States. Projection of this notion into historical times is either pseudo-history (if claiming to be academic), or just ethnocentric fantasy. "asking that African cultures not be exoticsied" has nothing to do with Afrocentrism. That's just a request for neutrality and isn't anything-centric. A necessary pre-condition for Afrocentrism is an unverifiable notion of Africanness that goes beyond a pragmatic geographic division, but somehow postulates, for example, that Egyptians have a mystical connection to Bantus by virtue of being located on the same landmass. Eurocentrism is a long-dead horse. It is a hallmark of the Afrocentrist conspiracy theorist to keep unearthing 19th or early 20th century Eurocentric fallacies (which really did exist, although they were hardly ever part of the mainstream), ignoring historical criticism of Eurocentric fallacies, and creating a dishonest impression of academia as inherently Eurocentric. This is exactly parallel to the Indigenous Aryans people claiming Indologists are Eurocentric or colonialist simply to cover up the fact that they do not in fact have a case that would stand academic scrutiny. This is cheap playing of the race card. If there is any case to be made, it can be made within academia, without ideological bells and whistles. As indeed cases for "indigenous continuity" are being made within academia all the time. They just never are quite spectacular enough to match ethnocentric fantasy. History never is. dab (𒁳) 14:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Some sources:
Look at the dates on the article, you can see the way this is evolving over time. futurebird 18:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
It's not so much valorizing as it it correcting for several centuries of Eurocentric scholarship. In many ways, central elements of Afrocentriam and Multiculturalism are now mainstream. Some of the things the early Afrocentrists criticized, have now been corrected and accepted. If you look at the quotes in the section on Eurocentrism you'll realize that few if any scholars have ideas like that these days. How did that transition happen? futurebird 15:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
So you're saying the work of Afrocentrists had nothing to do with this:
When we classify mankind by colour, the only one of the primary races...which has not made a creative contribution to any of our twenty-one civilizations is the black race. — Arnold J. Toynbee, respected 20th-century scholar, historian and author
Racist idea being debunked and rejected by most well accepted scholars? Or am I misreading you? Did people just spontaneously decided that this was wrong?
I think the comparison you draw with feminism is valid. It's another word that has been demonized and is associated too often with only the lunatic fringe of the movement. The reality is, of course, that there is a spectrum within both movements-- and much of the spectrum fuses with good scholarship and mainstream ideas. futurebird 15:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh did didn't see your last change "but like feminism it funtioned as a motivator and challenger." OK. that makes more sense.
futurebird
15:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the language in the lead. Afrocentricity isn't generally considered ideology -- and it isn't, except among a relative few, although it may sometimes have an ideological component. deeceevoice 11:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Eurocentrism isn't described in its lead paragraph as an "ideology." It's described as being ethnocentric. Furthermore, your note here does nothing to explain your wholesale revert of my edits. Don't start edit warring here, Dbachmann. It won't be tolerated. If you make a change/revert, state your rationale. deeceevoice 12:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
And, no, we cannot agree that Afrocentrism is as flawed as Eurocentrism. This "if I'm one, then what are you?" crap is tiresome and just doesn't fly. You can't paint the entire Afrocentrist paradigm with the same, broad brush as that used to rightfully debunk and denounce unscholarly claptrap frontin' like knowledge. Among respected scholars, there is ample room for debate and contention with regard to human history -- particularly ancient human history. Deviating from commonly accepted viewpoints doesn't automatically make one an extremist or a wack-job. All it means is that person has a different interpretation of available information.
My edits were "flawed from beginning to end"? "Saying so doesn't make it so," to paraphrase your edit note here. Where's your rationale for your wholesale, block revert of my edits? That is, after all, what edit notes are for -- and this discussion page. So, let's start with the first edit I made which you reverted. It involves the placement of commas. How is it flawed, Bachmann? Come on. Out with it. It's a simple edit. Your reversion of it should be equally simple to explain. Let's have it, Bachmann. I'm waiting. deeceevoice 13:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Note: A post by Dbachmann tacked on 11 minutes later to the above post has been separated and repositioned below to more accurately reflect the nature of the discussion. deeceevoice 14:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
What? No response to my post yet, Bachmann? Not even an attempt at justifying the simplest revert in your block reversion of my edits? I made it easy for you. Explain the deletion of the commas. Let's stick to the issue at hand. Explain your reverts -- point by point -- just as I explained my edits when I made them. Time to put up or shut up. deeceevoice 13:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Deeceevoice is a well-known Afroentrist pov-pusher with no respect for Wikipedia fundamentals. It would be a waste of time to disect her edits one by one, because they are intended to be controversial. You reverted another editor. re-instating strawman illustrations. Statements like
(I removed that last comment because I thought it would simply cause an unproductive argument. I think we need to focus on making the article better and personal attacks like that don't help.) futurebird 14:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
great, dcv, now you have "repositionsed" things to the point of making it impossible for anyone to follow this. Look, if you don't want reasonable debate and npov, why don't you just spare everyone the bother and write a personal blog. This talkpage is in dire need of moderation. Editors cannot be expected to invest time in answering incoherent ramblings. dab (𒁳) 19:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There are quite a few citing Edward Wilmont Blyden's African Life and Customs, but it doesn't cite which publication, as there were a couple of re-pubs since the first book. So which book do the references refer? The first pub of 1908, or later? Please use {{ Cite book}} for proper formating and clarification on what citation refers for verification. Thanks. ~ Jeeny (talk) 22:26, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
The article is looking a lot better than it was before. Great job to all of you who are working on this article. Titanium Dragon 00:58, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
... to Wikidudeman for cleaning up the cites. Dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it. deeceevoice 11:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Afrocentricity developed in response to the pervasive Eurocentrism members of the African diaspora and Africans under colonial rule experienced when they were exposed to European ideas of history.
Deecee, I think I can find sources to support this, but I'd rather know why you feel it's controversial first? Admittedly, I just write it off the cuff, since I thought the section needed a better intro instead of just hitting people with the quotes right away. So, how should we change it? futurebird 14:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
In light of your concerns I've replaced the sentence with something else that is sourced. Let me know what you think of it. I don't know if the sources all agree with your description of Afrocentricity. These are issues that we need to discuss someplace in the article. When you get back from being banned (?) let me know what you think of the new version.
Afrocentricity is not merely a reactionary phenomenon; it is at its core and most importantly a different paradigm, one by its very nature that is often and quite naturally diametrically opposed to the Eurocentrist weltanschaung in which most Westerners have been indoctrinated. Understandably, perhaps, it is often viewed as reactionary.
What sources support this? I've found sources that say that it is reactionary in the sense that if histories had not become so Eurocentric in the first place there never would have been a need for Afrocentrism. futurebird ( talk) 21:53, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Those are facile assumptions that, while true in many instances, militate against the very nature of human curiousity and intellectual inquiry. If there were never any history written, people would write it eventually. One need not have been exposed to Eurocentrist lies in order to search for truth about one's people's true past. And, having been exposed to Eurocentrist lies does not mean, ipso facto, that such myths/falsehoods are the raison d'etre of someone's interest/drive to examine the original historical record and determine the truth for oneself. It's perfectly normal and natural for someone to be motivated to do so absent any outside factors. Such is the nature of the human mind and scholarly inquiry. deeceevoice ( talk) 15:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikidudeman (talk) 17:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually, no. It obviously doesn't mean that, WDM. It simply means it requires substantiation by an acceptable, verifiable source. If you have a problem with it, then put a fact tag on it, and someone will get to it. I'm not sure I get your point about Wek. The caption states she is Dinka, and as such, hers is a suitable example to illustrate just what others are wrong-headedly calling "Caucasoid." per the Diop quote. IMO, it certainly belongs in the article. If someone wants to add something about the DRT, then fine. But it's not appropriate to arbitrarily delete it with some excuse that it's somehow POV. deeceevoice 18:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I would like to encourage everyone to keep their tempers at bay and cool their exchanges. I think this talk page could use more civility right now.
Second, here's how I see the situation: it seems some editors see Afrocentrism as merely a "social movement", a politics totally disconnected from any possible connection to academic endeavor. Other see Afrocentrism (or Afrocentricity - I'm not particular about this bit of semantics) as partly a social movement, but one whose better ideas has also permeated legitimate academia, thereby changing in some measure recent views of history, among other things (and please - I'm no expert, so I may be missing things, but I'm just trying to sum up everything to everyone's benefit). Therefore, I'm wondering if any editors (surmising my appreciation of each position isn't entirely wrong) could supply additional references to substantiate exactly their position. Otherwise, I think we're doomed to suffer quite a bit more of unnecessary POV-slinging before we can sort this out. It's also possible that both are competing views of Afrocentrism, and that both shuld be presented side by side; like I said, I'm no expert. The only thing I know is that this battle about who's right and who's wrong shouldn't be allowed to continue longer.-- Ramdrake 19:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it needs to be protected.
In response to Ramdrake: That's just the problem. Afrocentricity isn't monolithic. It has changed over time. At at any given time it has carried multiple means ranging from political concerns to the purely academic. There is plenty of material in the article to support this view and it is sourced. Read the article carefully and look at the sources that are there. I've sent out an email to a Black Studies listserv to get feedback for additional sources. As these come in I'm reading them and adding them. I think that if we sort the data by the time it was published a better image of what this topic has been over time will emerge. futurebird 19:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I think Dbm thinks of Afrocentricity only with respect to it's most extreme claims, those extreme claims have been there all along, just as you can find astronomers who think there's life on Mars. (they have evidence! it could be true! But, it's just a side show that steals attention away from the real less glamorous scholarship.) But some of the early ideas are so basic, that it's hard to see that they were once radical now. For example the radical idea that: African people have cultures. In many ways the early work is the most "main stream" because some, but not all of the racism has gone away. In some ways as aspects of Afrocentricity are accepted and become mainstream, they lose the title "Afrocentricity" so all that remains in the real wild stuff about Egyptians with gliders. And, at this point, you can pinpoint most of that stuff to a few folks in the 70s and 80s. To some people the word just means "radical ideas about Africa" and depending on the context what is "radical" has changed. futurebird 20:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I want to get this article unprotected but this can only happen if it is agreed that no edit warring will occur on it. Would you all agree to a 1 revert rule on the article? 1 revert of the same material per week. This means that if material is added and then reverted only once, no other editor can re-add it for a week. Would you all agree to this stipulation? Please sign your name here in agreement or in disagreement. Wikidudeman (talk) 15:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
deeceevoice 15:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC) If you want to know why, we can discuss.
First, WDM got off on the wrong foot by sending me a note about this, along with Wikidudeman -- and no one else -- as thought I was guilty of edit warring, when I did absolutely nothing of the sort.
Second, I've been here long enough to know how issues like this attract antagonistic and racist elements which are plentiful here on the website. They glomb on to an article and engage in tag-team edit warring, oftentimes openly handing off to other edit warriors, as if in a POV-pushing relay, in order to avoid breaking the 3RR, to block reversions as in the case of the Giza Sphinx article. Also, in contentious articles it's very easy to mistakenly break the 3RR, even while not intending to edit war at all. I know I myself have done it. Hell, I've been accused of edit warring here. Oh, yes. And "trolling". lol
So, I think the idea, though possibly well-intentioned, sux. Hay-o to the naw! ;p deeceevoice 16:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Not convinced. You started off wrong and not being straight up. I don't trust you or the process you propose. deeceevoice 16:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict)
deeceevoice, I don't believe that's true. I placed the note on this page at 11:11, 15 November 2007 and your note on your talk page asking why I selected you out was on 11:21, 15 November 2007, 10 minutes later. I placed the note here before you ever asked why I only left the note to you and Dbachmann. Wikidudeman (talk) 16:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Let's try it for just 2 weeks to see if it works. If you agree then Dbachmann would be the only one not agreeing and it would show that you at least want to try something to resolve conflicts with this article and improve it. If you don't think that my scenario will work then please explain to me an alternative. We can't do nothing and then wait for the article to be unprotected and then have it protected again due to edit warring, regardless of who is doing it or who isn't. So either let's try it for two weeks or you come up with an alternative way we can get this article unprotected and improved. Wikidudeman (talk) 16:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me, WDM, but I don't have to do a single, freakin' thing to demonstrate my willingness to resolve conflict here. I didn't edit war. I didn't troll. I wasn't being disruptive. It seems you're pressuring the wrong individual here. Your efforts are misdirected/wasted here. I suggest you start at the source of the problem: DBachmann: "Don't start none, won't be none." deeceevoice 16:50, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The admin even went so far as to leave a 3RR warning on my page -- clearly inappropriate. Frankly, I just don't think they were paying close attention. Chalk it up to inexperience?
In answer to your question, fb, one can edit war without violating the 3RR. That's simply a guideline and a metric for enforcement. What dBachmann did was clearly edit warring, clearly arrogant, clearly disruptive. And when he didn't get his way, he got huffy and bitchy and unilaterally slapped a tag on the article two (or three?) days after another editor left a note on this page complimenting the editors for the improvements made in the article. deeceevoice 16:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Fb, if you think WDM's idea is "too strict," and if you agree that the admin jumped the gun, then why are you still signed on? (edit conflict) deeceevoice 17:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm doing this because I want to move forward, and I can work with it if it makes people feel better. I'm flexible. I think WDM has good intentions, even if we don't agree about a heap of things. :P futurebird 17:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, but I might have done that. It bugs me when tags get removed without a reason and there were all of the deletions that WDM made that you put back-- I think he had a point in a few cases, but was overzealous in removing things. But, we're addressing that, right? BTW, do you have a source for that photo? The link to the "DNA TREE" is dead so it needs a source. I don't know, what's the worst that can happen? An edit war stars and the article is protected again? Let's move on... WDM has a POV but he's nota "pusher" (everyone has a POV IMHO) futurebird 17:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict)
I know you called in the admin, Ramdrake. I looked it up. And, no. She didn't warn "everybody in sight." And she accused me of being close to violating the 3RR rule, which I wasn't. Furthermore, getting out of our "comfort zones"? Hell, I stay laid-back. And I'm fine with the way things are. And unless and until WDM engages the unruly, hostile DBachmann, the cause of this silly situation, at length about this the way he's bugging me to go along to get along, then I got absolutely nothing more say on the matter. This whole thing is bogus. II intend to keep on editing the way I have been, improving the article and acting in good faith. You guys can do whatever floats your boat. deeceevoice 18:26, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Just read your edits, look good to me, but pray tell, what is the difference between African studies and Africana studies? Care to enlighten me? Thx!-- Ramdrake 13:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
“ | Whilst acknowledging that the ancient Egyptian population was 'mixed', a fact confirmed by all the anthropological analyses, writers nevertheless speak of an Egyptian 'race', linking it to a well defined human type, the white, 'Hamitic' branch, also called 'Caucasoid', 'Mediterranean', 'Europid' or 'Eurafricanid'. There is a contradiction here: all the anthropologists agree in stressing the sizeable proportion of the Negroid element--almost a third and sometimes more--in the ethnic [i.e. biological] mixture of the ancient Egyptian 'population', but nobody has yet defined what is meant by the term 'Negroid', nor has any explanation been proffered as to how this Negroid element, by mingling with a 'Mediterranean' component often present in smaller proportions, could be assimilated into a purely Caucasoid race." - Jean Vercoutter [1] | ” |
Where should this quote go? I don't think we need it. My reasoning is he's talking about race in biological terms and the concern of nearly every Afro centrist is cultural influence, not race. Ideas? futurebird 14:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Such results however, are generally misleading. Many scholars have noted the fallacies of typological thinking as it concerns indigenous eastern African populations. The inhabitants of East Africa right on the equator have appreciably longer, narrower, and higher noses than people in the Congo at the same latitude, features that are sometimes erroneously labeled " Caucasoid". However, such features have always been indigenous to Saharo-tropical African and many anthropologists point out that there's nothing to suggest that these populations are closely related to "Caucasoids" of Europe and western Asia. [2] Indeed, genetic analyses have indicated that Somali people in particular, are overwhelmingly indigenous. The male Somali population is a branch of the East African population − closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya − with predominant E3b1 cluster lineages that were introduced into the Somali population 4000−5000 years ago, and that the Somali male population has approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia and approximately 5% from other parts of sub-Saharan Africa. Thus, determining that Somalis and those in the Horn of Africa are of the Elongated African type. [3] Similarly, Ethiopians are found to share maternal lineages in common with both sub-Saharan Africa and Eurasia. Both Ethiopians and Yemenis contain an almost-equal proportion of Eurasian-specific M and N and African-specific lineages. [4]However, even these results may prove misleading since a great number of geneticists cite M1 lineages as being native to and emerging in Ethiopia some 60,000 years ago. [5]
This long discussion of DNA, and the length of Caucasoid noses isn't related to Afrocentricity. The sources say nothing about Afrocentricity. Including this paragraph may be original research. (and to be honest I don't know what point it is trying to make?)
futurebird
15:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I thought that was oK because it was an example of what the Diop quote was talking about. The point of this section isn't to answer questions about DNA or race, it is to explain what the Afrocentrists were objecting to when they objected to the definitions of race at the time. But we should show that these view are not around as much anymore. So we should add part of it back. futurebird 15:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, It says "According to Neil Risch of Yale "East African groups, such as Ethiopians and Somalis, have great genetic resemblance to Caucasians and "are clearly intermediate between sub-Saharan Africans and Caucasians"." Then it says: "Today, in agreement with the Afrocentric view, many anthropologists point out that there's nothing to suggest that these populations are closely related to "Caucasoids" of Europe and western Asia.". So which is it? Are Ethiopians and Somalis genetically similar to Caucasians or are they not? The second sentence gives the impression that it is contemporary and the previous ones aren't yet the one from Risch is about 3 decades more recent than the second one. Wikidudeman (talk) 16:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay, that's my mistake. Let me see if I can fix the wording. futurebird 16:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
In the last paragraph here and in other places, the article sets up Arnold Toynbee as a great Eurocentric person to do battle with. This weakens the article. First of all, the Wikipedia article on him shows that he wasn't that influential, and secondly, he did his major work before 1961. He doesn't seem that significant.---- Parkwells ( talk) 19:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
This is one of the reasons that I'm trying to reframe this article in such a way that it shows how Afrocentricity has changed over time. The criticisms of toynbee require historical context. (I also think this section is just way too long.) But in general I agree. -- futurebird ( talk) 20:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The article would be more substantive if it dealt with sources and criticism other than Time magazine. It doesn't represent scholarly work, but rather the effort to make ideas more sensational for popular consumption.---- Parkwells ( talk) 19:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
What source would you suggest? Time isn't the only one mentioned. I shortened the emphasis on the Time article, are you saying we should remove it? I think it's fine, these ideas aren't just academic, the public perception if the ideas is also a part of the story. I had some criticism from an Afrocentrist of Afrocentrism that deeceevoice removed, perhaps we should put it back? Let me find it so both of you can weigh in on this. -- futurebird ( talk) 20:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Cain Hope Felder, a supporter of Afrocentric ideas writes that it is important for Afrocentrists to avoid certain pitfalls. [6] These include:
- Demonizing categorically all white people, without careful differentiation between persons of goodwill and those who consciously perpetuate racism.
- Adopting multiculturalism as a curricular alternative that eliminates, marginalizes, or vilifies European heritage to the point that Europe epitomizes all the evil in the world.
- Gross over-generalizations and using factually or incorrect material is bad history and bad scholarship. [6]
Here it is, should we restore it? -- futurebird ( talk) 20:45, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
That's where it is. There seem to be a fair number of people who don't "get" that many Afrocentrists are serious and that Afrocentrists are also disturbed by bad scholarship. I know what you mean, though. It's really BASIC stuff and a little silly that it needs to be said at all. futurebird ( talk) 15:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Let's keep this simple. The opening paragraph needs to be edited, because it gives no specific context for "Afrocentrism". Afrocentrism is something that is relevant in Africa - as the definition says African issues should be central. If it is not within Africa, it is racial supremacy, commonly known as racism and therefor demands a much less idealistic style. As the only white person who seems to acknowledge that black people can be racist too (usually more so) I will be the one to step up and tell you that this article should be treated with more skepticism. Unless, of course, it is a phenomenon wholly confined to Africa, in which case it is perfectly and, in my opinion, totally justified. But then the article needs a rewrite.
This section starts with a lengthy quote that appears to be suggesting it's the current state of Afrocentric thinking, but the author isn't identified, nor are we told on the page (not in the reference) why we should pay attention to this person - what is his role? Why should we care? Similarly, Kunjufu is noted later in the section, but not why we should pay attention to him. You need to help out all readers, not just those who might already be familiar with the topic. ---- Parkwells ( talk) 19:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Chancellor Williams - Although his book was noted in this section of "80s and 90s", it turned out he first published the book in 1971, which puts it in a much different timeframe/context. I don't know how much he added to it in the years in between the first and second version, which was published in 1987, according to the note. That's nearly a generation of life and thinking. He was born in the 19th c., so was shaping his book from an earlier mindset.---- Parkwells ( talk) 22:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I still have the book, so I'll go back to the article when I return after Thanksgiving and see how these writers are characterized. Williams' book was trailblazing, and I always got the impression the second edition of TDBC hadn't changed significantly from the first, as I stated above. But I'll let you know. deeceevoice ( talk) 03:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
In noting the work of Drusilla Dunjee Houston, the section doesn't say anything about how her work has held up. Is it supposed to be substantive, as Du Bois' was, or an inspirational assessment/personal meditation on what that civilization might have been like? Scholars are always looking over and revising past opinions. When I looked up information about Houston, this site < http://voices.cla.umn.edu/vg/Bios/entries/houston_drusilla_dunjee.html> noted that Houston didn't include any notes or bibliography with her work. So, can it be considered a contribution to historical thinking? A contemporary scholar is trying to add those sections for republication. ---- Parkwells ( talk) 19:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The fact that 19th c. scholars made mistakes (as in directions of migration movements out of or into Africa) doesn't always mean that they were totally biased and always had evil intent. There were many mistakes made by 19th c. scholars. Aren't there any critics who note that some of the proponents of Afrocentrism are sounding a lot like the original biased Europeans themselves? That point of view doesn't appear here. Surely we can do better than an attempt to get rid of "all European and Arab influences" and focus on "Africa only", whatever that is supposed to mean. If people study history, linguistics, archeology or art, or almost anything seriously, it becomes obvious that peoples were always on the move (at least traders and marauders were), trading languages, arts, foods, sex, etc. for tens of thousands of years. There weren't those simple separations. Yes , from family to tribe to clan, each group likes to claim it is the center of the universe, and we all see the world through a screen. ---- Parkwells ( talk) 20:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
There was no note taken of the fact that the person calling for a return to true Africa - language, culture, government, etc. got a master's at Catholic U. in Washington, DC and practices as a priest in Charleston, West VA. Does that affect (or should it?) what we think of his views? How does he explain his decision to work in the US instead of Nigeria? Does he tell American children to return to true African values? Some of these views sound a lot like the resistance to change by nativist Americans in the early 20th c. US, as society was changed by major population movements within the country, and major new groups of immigrants to it. When do Afrocentrists define the "true Africa"? how do you keep that from changing? Societies (and individuals) go through cycles of renewal and trying to reach back to past values, but they can't hold back change.---- Parkwells ( talk) 20:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I've made some changes that I hope makes it more clear that the views expressed are those of some Afrocentrists. There defiantly was one sentence in there that need to be qualified. I honestly see nothing wrong with the last paragraph, it's what the sources say, and it says that that is how some of them describe the movement. It's not like it just says "Afrocentrism is multicultural" it says "some Afrocentrists view the movement as multicultural" you can't really dispute that. How is that POV? -- futurebird ( talk) 22:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Moreschi, if you're going to continue to sit in judgment on the well-intentioned work of the editors here, then it would be helpful if you would adopt a tone that does not mock their contributions, that is not snide, condescending or patronizing. Show some common courtesy, please. deeceevoice ( talk) 03:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Given the conflicts here I won't make any edits to the article itself just yet. But I do have two suggestions to make the lead paragraph more NPOV.
Before "Afrocentricity," add "they view" and change the "is" to "as" (or find some other way to make identify whose view this is.
I think that in between these two sentences you need another sentence attributing to someone the view that Afrocentrism is ethnoicentric. Doing this would add another (critical) view. But unless you add something like this, the subsequent sentence is a non-sequitor. It seems like there are two distinct criticisms of Afrocentrism:first, that it is pseudohistory, second, that it is ethnocentric. These may be related criticisms but I think they are still distinct criticisms. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:45, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Would it make sense to distinguish between Afrocentrism as a social movement and as an intellectual movement? I know that they are connected but based on admittedly limited knowledge I thought that civic and political leaders, compared to academics, often have different agendas and are subject to different kinds of criticisms. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Paul: that Afrocentrism is an idelogical model or ('paradigm' if you prefer) that was constructed to provide diaspora Africans (mainly, in fact, African-Americans) with a model of cultural identity centred in Africa
That's not the primary purpose and certainly not the only purpose. Afrocentrists would argue that Afrocentricity is just as important for people of all races/ethnicities who want to understand African history and the diaspora. For example, the Afrocentric method as can be used in researching African indigenous culture. (See: Using the Afrocentric Method in Researching Indigenous African Culture Queeneth Mkabela The Qualitative Report Volume 10 Number 1 March 2005 178-189 )
Metaphors of location and dislocation are the principal tools of analysis as research situations and researchers are seen as displaying various forms of centeredness. To be centered is to be located as an agent instead of as "the Other." Such a critical shift in thinking means that the Afrocentric perspective provides new insights and dimensions in the understanding of African indigenous culture, in a multicultural context.
So, in other words, it's a method for getting more accurate higher quality research. Or, at least, that's the goal. This isn't about feelings.
The therapeutic aspect of Afrocentricity for members of both African and Diaspora communities (it's not just about African Americans) is not, by any means, the only objective. I added some information about how, in the 80s and 90s, the therapeutic idea was in vogue, it was mostly conservative Afrocentrists who didn't even see the connections between Diaspora cultural developments like Hip Hop and African culture. I'd guess that not many Afrocentrists even agree with that idea anymore. (In fact they are more likely to look for Manifestations of Afrocentricity in Rap Music See: Howard Journal of Communications, Volume 13, Issue 1 January 2002 , pages 59 - 76) To say that African Americans are culturally poor is just as bad as the early Eurocentrists who found Africans culturally poor. So, it would be incorrect to represent the movement as primarily therapeutic and only for African Americans.
Though, I do understand you concern that it won't be clear that ideas are coming from certain sources and perspectives, though that is remedied easily enough by simply mentioning the source. I agree that the feminism article could be a good model. I think it is the correct approach to try to place most of the ideas in to a historical time-line for context. futurebird ( talk) 13:31, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
"You seem to want redefine Africentrism according to your personal view of what it is, or what it has become."
Paul, that's not my intention. I am concerned that the article will fail to show the many forms that Afrocentricity takes by making blanket statements about its purpose, this would not agree with some of the sources. These sources happen to be the most recent (post 2000) publications that discuss Afrocentricity. That's why I made the section called "contemporary" What I'm gathering from my research is that Afrocentricity has changed significantly. Ethnocentric Afrocentricities need to be placed in context. Therapeutic Afrocentricities need to be placed in context. Don't leave anything out, but also don't describe Afrocentricity as if it was just one thing, and we describe ideas that are no longer in circultion we need to make it clear that they come from a time period that may have influenced their content and approach.
But what is distinctively Afrocentric about the argument is the claim that "centreredness" in African culture is crucial."
Yes, exactly, do you know if there is much controversy about this approach when dealing with African people? (I don't know off hand.)
If you are redefining Afrocentrism to mean simply "objective scholarship about Africa and disapora African identity", then this vacates the word of any meaning and effectively allows you to block out both the problematic aspects of the tradition and what distinguishes it from exactly the same developments in relation to non-African cultures.
I don't want to get too sidetracked and philosophical, but isn't the closet thing you can get to objective scholarship an amalgamation of multiple perspectives, since every history is written with some perspective or "center"? Hence a multiculturalist historian who agreed with my last statement would say that the Afrocentric method is a necessary part of complete scholarship and without it the picture is incomplete less accurate and objective. What I have just stated is a view of the place of Afrocentricity-- I think we should represent this view. (along with others, if we have sources for them)
The quotation is potentially useful to include, say in comparison to the rather more extreme claims of Hoskins, but I suggest that it should bpart of a wider discussion of this concept of centredness and the scholarly and political claims made for it.
Okay, sounds fair.
Also, all the stuff from Hume and others is really really marginal. We all know that many Western intellectuals though Africans were inferior. We don't need great chunks of text repeating the same point.
I don't know if people know that. I think it's really important to include it because it helps people to understand why there had to be a whole movement-- It adds context. But, I'll see what the other editors think. futurebird ( talk) 14:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
PaulB and Futurebird provide distinct views as to the origins and functions of Afrocentrism. Can both agree that any view supported by a verifiable source should be represented in the article? In some cases it is not either/or but this and that (because Wikipedia is concerned not with "the truth" but with all notable views). That said, I would ask if PaulB can provide other sources besides EB. We are engaged in the same endeavor as the authors of EB - writing an encyclopedia. We have an NOR and V policy because our articles are only as good as their sources. In this spirit, I think the value of an EB article is not that it claims that Afrocentrism exists for reason x, but that their article hopoefully has a list of sources we can draw on ourselves. If the EB article does not provide its sources, well, then I am not satisfied using it as an authoritative source for a notable view. If EB were the definitive encyclopedia, then there would be no point at all to our working on a competing project. I am not dismissing the view PaulB wants included in this article. I am saying that if it is a truly notable view then we should be able to cite better sources than EB, I mean, books published by academic presses or articles in peer-reviewed journals.
Now, let's say that PaulB and Futurebird have plenty of sources to show that Afrocentrism emerged in part as a cultural expression of the African diaspora, and in part as a movement in academia to correct a Eurocentric bias (I happen to know this is true because i know Martin Bernal, retired professor of Near Eastern studies and author of Black Athena who is not only not black, he is very proud of his Irish heritage; his book is explicitly an example of the view Futurebird invokes). Can we go back to my point bout the organization of this article? My question is, instead of talking about "Afrocentrism" might it not make more sense to talk about "Afrocentrisms" i.e. a set of related, at times intersecting or overlapping, but nevertheless diverse (in origins, proponents, propositions, functions and objectives) movements? If so, could this article be better-organized to make this clear 9and to lay out for editors areas that need more work)? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Two of the most important sections - "Role of Ancient Egypt" and "Eurocentrism" - come AFTER the chronological development of ideas within Afrocentrism. When you look at the references, however, you see that many of the ideas of these two sections developed in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. This was the time of intellectual ferment also caused by revisionist historians looking at the roles of minorities, women and working class (also influenced by earlier French intellectuals); intellectual historian Edward Said's 1979 "Orientalism"; and paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man", which showed how cultural biases distorted "scientific" measurement and conclusions. All efforts are human.
Because of this placement, though, we revisit ideas that were developed in earlier times (and only know that IF we look at every reference). Also, the argument/discussion seems to go in circles. I think both these sections have to be moved up much earlier in the article.
Also, I still find it confusing from the article - as it stands - to try to figure out just WHAT people in the Afrocentric movement thought WHEN about Egypt. These ideas have really taken hold popularly, wrong or right.
It appears that many Egyptologists don't think there is much reason to believe that Egyptians were black as we understand it, but that message isn't very clear. Other scholars have clearly shown that Afrocentric claims of "Aristotle stealing from the Alexandria Library" couldn't have happened.
I made better written comments here this morning which I lost by failing to save properly. If you want me to work at reorganizing the article, I will.-- Parkwells ( talk) 15:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I tried to reorganize this, but it needs supplementation. I think the ideas about culture have to be separated from the ideas (and evidence) about physical characteristics or "race". To me they seem to be mixed in almost every paragraph, and it's impossible to understand what people were referring or responding to. I reordered it somewhat to put earlier thinkers (as shown by references) earlier in the section. In these cases of archeology and other studies, I think it's important to show within the article when people were writing or thinking. It is still unbalanced, but this is a start. It shoudl not be ending with conclusions of an early-mid 20thc. historian set against someone writing in the 1990s. Also, the reference to "writing through the centuries" about Egypt's contribution to Mediterranean culture is pretty vague. I'm not sure what it means, although I took a stab at historiography-- Parkwells ( talk) 16:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC).
The early (in chronology) Afrocentric cultural claims/beliefs about Egypt or groups of Africans such as Somalis can't be equated as equivalent and just as good to "believe" as later physical evidence derived from DNA and archeology. The last paragraph of this section particularly goes in circles as it goes through some ideas/claims in almost chronological fashion, but then in almost the last sentence refers to a scholar writing in 1974, when more recent DNA evidence seems to have overturned his theories of anthropology. So I ended up confused again there, just when I thought I was getting it.-- Parkwells ( talk) 15:34, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
That last paragraph is awful. I tried to fix it... but... it's still a mess. So, I agree, I only ask that when you re-organize things that you not delete anything that's sourced (at least initially) without posting it on the talk page. I've been working hard to add sources and tidbits and I want to know if anything gets deleted. (I mean maybe some of it needs to go, but I just want to know...)
That said, I'm all for both of your ideas, we should try to re-factor each of these sections in to the sections on history. futurebird ( talk) 15:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
"Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North. See Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge History of Africa (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982), vol I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54."
Do we need this? Where should it go if anywhere? futurebird ( talk) 16:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I assume someone put it there and it made sense at the time. That's why I'm asking. I don't just want to delete it without finding out if it ought to be moved to some section. I don't see how it's connected to the topic except tangentially. futurebird ( talk) 16:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
People are infinitely stupid and don't have reasons for saying or doing things. But what I hate here is people trying to intellectualize Egyptian ethnicity when they are clearly not Egyptian. I hate these people. If you're not from Egypt, you truly have no right whatsoever to an opinion on whether Egypt is African or not. that debate is founded on two things: what is African (should it be "Subsahara" instead?) and what is Egypt. Most Egyptians do not call themselves African inasmuch as identifying with distant lands such as Capo Verde and South Africa. Greece is in a similar position with Europe. However, and finally: If you are excluding Egypt on the basis of race then you are admitting that "Afrocentrism" is in fact a racist term that discriminates between blacks and whites. This is all very stupid. Sort it out.
I've added to the introduction here to provide context for what was originally a Western Hemisphere argument among intellectuals and leaders - of course it also had political implications, and added some events to provide background.-- Parkwells ( talk) 14:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
In the West and elsewhere, the European, in the midst of other peoples, has often propounded an exclusive view of reality; the exclusivity of this view creates a fundamental human crisis. In some cases, it has created cultures arrayed against each other or even against themselves. Afrocentricity’s response certainly is not to impose its own particularity as a universal, as Eurocentricity has often done. But hearing the voice of African American culture with all of its attendant parts is one way of creating a more sane society and one model for a more humane world. Asante, M. K. (1988). Afrocentricity. Trenton, NJ: Africa World Press Inc. Page 28
I'm reading this quote as "Asante thinks that the Eurcentric world view is one where there is only one world view, but the Afrocentric world view acknowledges that other views exists." Is that what he's saying?
In theory, Asante sees Afro-centricity involving the interpretation analysis from the perspective of African people as subjects rather than objects. In practice, Afrocentric principles are used to interpret and explain issues in the search for understanding within the historical context associated with underrepresented groups overlooked for generations. On the rhetoric of Afrocentricity. Journal article by Karen Strother-Jordan; The Western Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 26, 2002
futurebird ( talk) 00:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The repeated complaint for Afrocentrists is that all things related to African people and their decedents are underrepresented as serious foci of study in "traditional western scholarship" --when research is done about topics related to Afrian and diaspora people it is often clinical in nature (statistical surveys of test scores, crime, poverty) there is in the opinion of Afrocentrists far less work exploring diaspora cultures and their relations to African cultures. So, research the explores these kinds of questions is often labeled "Afrocentric" Here is an abstract:
Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 35, No. 6, 730-750 (2005)
DOI: 10.1177/0021934704268575
© 2005 SAGE Publications
Afrocentricity, the Adae Festival of the Akan, African American Festivals, and Intergenerational Communication
Yaw Owusu-Frempong
University of Ghana
African American communities celebrate different kinds of festivals each year, but little has been published on this subject. This article is intended to fill part of the vacuum, demonstrating the importance and functions of African festivals and their relationship with contemporary African American festivals. African festivals are a tool of community gathering and unity and place us at the center of our culture and social environment. They are also a medium of cultural education and intergenerational communication and play an important role in the preservation of our cultural heritage, transmitting knowledge and our experiences as a people to future generations. The celebration of festivals in the African American communities must not be seen merely as an annual congregation of street and food vendors, marching bands, and musicians but also as a tool of cultural reconstruction and transmission of knowledge to the younger generation.
Key Words: Afrocentricity • African festivals • Akan festivals • intergenerational communication
Notice that Afrocentricity is not mentioned in the title of the paper, or in the abstract, but it is a key word. That is because the kind of scholarship that this abstract describes: one that catalogs what one group of diaspora people do culturally, and one that compares it to African traditions is by nature "Afrocentric scholarship." One could also look at African American festivals and compare them to traditions in Europe. We would find many parallels there too, and in fact, an european standard has often been used to asses the degree of assimilation of African Americans in to the broader American culture. But if we want to understand the entire history we also need the Afrocentric perspective. I think that's the idea here.
I bring this up to point out that not all Afrocentric scholarship carried the label explicitly. Not all sources will agree that ANY research that looks at African influence in by nature Afrocentric-- But this is one interoperation of the topic. futurebird ( talk) 00:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
The Journal isn't always Afrocentric, though it has carried many articles and argue both in favor of and against Afrocentric ideas. It's been around for about 25 years and article it in are cited regulary by scholrs writing in other more famous JOurnals. Here is information from the publisher, Sage Publications, Inc. they publish a few other journals which all seem to be pretty reputable.
Bu um, you're right, the word is in the paper, I don't know why I missed it. (?) Here is where this is all coming from: I asked about this topic on a listserv for black studies if "Afrocentricity was still important" one of the responses I got from a few people was "there is a lot of Afrocentric research going on today, people just don't always call it that, because some view the term as political." This seems reasonable enough, but I'm looking for a real source that might back such a claim up, (if true.) One thing I've noticed is the use of the term "Africa centered" (possibly) in place of Afrocentricity. Take a look at this. Do you see what I mean? futurebird ( talk) 04:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I'm confused. It talks about Eurocentrism as a problem then talks about taking an "Africa centered" approach:
I argue for the possibility of confronting Western bias and contributing to broader theoretical debates by creating theoretical constructs derived from the African experience.
That is text book Afrocentricity if anything ever was. What would it need to say in your opinion to be "Afrocentric" ? futurebird ( talk) 05:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
What Myers is doing is explaining the urban development of Ng'ambo through concepts derived from what the inhabitants themselves think about their city; this is a sound ethnographic principle, but there's nothing particularly Afrocentric about it.
Here is a description of the Afrocentric method for researching indigenous African cultures:
From a research point of view Asante argues that Afrocentricity can have a significant impact upon the way African researchers view their identity, specifically considering the African people as centred, located, oriented, and grounded. Afrocentricity is therefore a philosophical and theoretical perspective that when applied to research can form the essential core of the idea. In terms of research outcomes the issue of cultural location takes precedence over the topic or the data under consideration. The argument is that Africans have been moved off of social, political, philosophical, and economic terms for half a millenium. Consequently it becomes necessary to examine all data from the standpoint of Africans as subjects and human agents rather than as objects in a European frame of reference. Of course, this means that Afrocentricity has implications for indigenous African culture. Here, the motifs of locations and constituents of centredness or de-centredness become important when using the Afrocentric method.
Using the Afrocentric Method in Researching Indigenous African Culture The Qualitative Report Volume 10 Number 1 March 2005 178-189
But isn't this the same thing? If not, how is it different? futurebird ( talk) 06:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree and I can see that what you're saying was true for some Afrocentrists in the past, but I was under the impression that Pan-Africanism and Afrocentricity are distinct. Do you have any recent sources that talk about the things you're mentioning? I'd rather use a 3rd party source instead of trying to guess the intentions of Mkabela and other from the text. I'm prepared to learn something new that contradicts everything I "know" from experience but I need to see a source for it. I'm going to look around myself. (What I expect that we may find is that some pan-africanism is still alive but that most scholars avoid it.)
I wouldn't want to deny that there's some similarity between what Mkabela and Myers are saying, but the aim of getting away from Eurocentrism and expanding the discussion to include indigenous points of view is common to many scholarly approaches. Almost any historian who deals with Africa is going to treat Africans "as subjects and human agents rather than as objects"; if they don't, they're bad historians.
But it wasn't always like this, right? With respect to the study of African cultures did Afrocentricity play any role in this change in scholarly methods or is the movement entirely irrelevant to the contemporaneous shift from object to agent in these fields? I mean, it's not like only black people read W.E.B. ... For example, here is a paper on how Langston Gwaltney's Afrocentric reserach had an influence on African American anthropology. (Gwaltney's Influence on African American Anthropology by Cheryl Rodriguez. Transforming Anthropology. July 1998, Vol. 7, No. 2, pp. 71-72) Do you think there are other examples? futurebird ( talk) 13:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay I think we've come to a point where we can agree. It's not my intention to rope all research under the heading of Afrocentricity, rather, I just think we could point out that some of the research that is called Afrocentric is almost indistinguishable from "normal good ethnography" -- What do you think of my recent additions from Glazer? He's no fan of Afrocentricity, but I found that in his book he acknowledged a lot of the things that we've been talking about. futurebird ( talk) 18:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Likewise, religious movements such as Vodou are now less likely to be characterized as "mere superstition", but understood in terms of links to African traditions. Scholars who adopt such approaches may or may not see their work as Afrocentrist in orientation.
Could someone please list their source for that little tid-bit?? I know nothing of the topic, but, it seems plausible and in line with the other types of research I've documented, but the "citation needed" tag is bugging me. futurebird ( talk) 03:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Really for this article all we'd need is some evidence that the topic was being investigated from an Africa-centered view point. futurebird ( talk) 04:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Obviously things are much more complex, and this article should really pay more attention to Afrocentrism's historical origins and contextualizing it in broader cultural and academic movements.
The ban on editing this article, as well as the one-year block have been lifted temporarily with the proviso that I do not edit article main spaces. I understand that to mean actual articles. So, I feel free to add this.
The definition of Afrocentrism is far too narrow. It's curious that my change about it being a paradigm (called by Dbachmann "trolling" and "POV pushing") has been worded as though it is an opinion; it is not. It is widely recognized, even by the mainstream, across fields, as a paradigm. Further, my change was preparatory to a suggestion that the article be renamed to "Afrocentricity" and reworked to a more general framework, to begin with, with references to Afrocentric manifestations -- "Afrocentrism (history)," "Afrocentrism (education)," for example. Depending on the amount of information available, these could remain within the text of the article on Afrocentricity, or (more likely) split into separate articles.
But my ban and block preempted that effort.
I'm still preoccupied with deadlines (I'm taking a wiki break right now, goldbricking ;) ), so I haven't read the article. But it appears that much of the text is still useful, but the lead paragrahs would have to be completely rewritten -- and the subsequent information would have to be placed in proper context and the article completely reorganized.
I suggest you google "Afrocentric paradigm." You will find that a wide range of fields use the term, from those involved in providing social services, to historians, healthcare delivery, psychology, sociology, to -- you name it. (This may send some contrarian editors/overseers into proxysms of protest, or apoplectic fits, but, yes, my friends; it's a legit paradigm.
I have a variety of useful links I've turned up, if anyone is interested in investigating this highly mainstream acceptance of Afrocentricity as a paradigm and a model for working with peoples of Africa and the diaspora in education, social work, historical research, etc. deeceevoice ( talk) 14:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I do recall a while back that a visiting professor (whom I believe I enlisted from a contact I found in cyberspace) suggested a name change a while back, and that "Afrocentricity" did briefly exist as an article, but that it still focused solely on history, rather than approaching the subject as a paradigm for African peoples in which to operate, live, work and think -- and as a general framework for institutions and others who deal with African peoples to operate in. I think it might be useful to separate the two once again, because, while the terms are interchangeable in certain, if not most, contexts, "Afrocentricity" is the more value-neutral and generally not as politically charged, because it is more commonly used solely in professional, governmental and academic circles than Afrocentrism (not that the latter is not used in such contexts; it is) and has not been the subject of pop-culture media fodder and vitriolic debate poisoned by ignorance, racism, anti-black animus and those with political and social agendas -- much in the way "Ebonics" has been, as opposed to African American Vernacular English. deeceevoice ( talk) 14:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Paul. I couldn't remember his name. (I think I enlisted him, but I can't be sure. It easily could've been someone else for another article.) I returned from checking the edit history. This [1] version of the lead, dating back almost a year ago, is much closer to an accurate definition of "Afrocentricity"/"Afrocentrism". You will note, however, that it goes on to discuss history only. Still, it's a useful starting point. I'll see if I can remember what I did with that list of links....
I've got to get back to deadlines, but in the interim I suggest we all go back and read some of the old discussion threads, utilizing Spence's edit history, and contact him -- if he's still interested in the project -- to see if he'd like to contribute. deeceevoice ( talk) 15:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
It's always hard to identify where intellectual movements start and end. Some of the history shows activities/efforts in Africa, related in part to relationships to the whole colonization and Egyptologists.
It is interesting to note that there's been a lot of scholarship on Afrocentricity coming out of America and reflecting US experience, but maybe that's also because of the US intellectual structure - universities, plus the 60s and 70s having been filled with intellectual ferment and reworking of a lot of history due to a variety of factors. And people in the US trying to solve US problems.
There were a couple of themes going on - many groups saying they hadn't been represented in American history, and all this new work by historians on the experiences of African Americans, different ethnic groups, women - their stories/history, etc. from their own points of view and experience, much new work on labor history and the working class, immigration, etc. That shifted history and cultural studies from the 1960s on, and had precedents before.
Huge amounts of new work were done, including the beginning of more findings in African American archeology, especially in SC, which contributed to understanding the extent of African continuities in African American culture, as did the work in linguistics about Gullah. I know this wasn't defined as Afrocentricity and didn't mean the same thing - I just wanted to provide some perspective. People began to learn and see differently.
This started before Asante at Temple.
While Edward Said's (1978) book "Orientalism" was about a different topic,it had tremendous influence on history and cultural analysis of many sorts.
There were also changing ideas about continuity of cultures and the construction of cultures across the board. US historians starting looking less at evidence of American exceptionalism, which had operated for a long time in early histories as part of the nation's construction of its story of Revolution and triumph, and looking at continuities.
So David Hackett Fischer had a book of synthesis (1989) "Four British Folkways in America", in which he looked at continuities of cultures as they developed (and were expressed in naming patterns, housing, family formation, education, voting patterns through the 1960s, etc.) in New England, the Chesapeake Bay Colony and South, the Mid-Atlantic and the backcountry during colonial times. This was one slant.
Other historians and a variety of scholars were looking/appreciating cultural continuities among other groups, too, including accumulating work on African Americans, which was also in the US much influenced by the Civil Rights Movement, Black Power and other movements. There was new recognition, too, of W.E.B. Du Bois' history of "Black Reconstruction" and a reevaluation about Reconstruction and post-Civil War history. Don't mean to bring everything into it, but many strands played into the importance and rise of Afrocentricity.-- Parkwells ( talk) 16:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
But much of this work also focused on how all these groups created something new in the US - the music, the arts, the language, the literature, the foods, have been products of creolization - the creative back and forth among the different groups that takes place and has taken place no matter what theories are stirring above. Many historians have focused on that, too.-- Parkwells ( talk) 16:13, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
It's really looking good! I think the changes have added so much to readers being able to understand how Afrocentricity developed, and also how it has changed through the decades. -- Parkwells ( talk) 13:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I would also agree progress has been made. Thanks for your efforts. We will now soon be able to progress to the notorious Race of ancient Egyptians and address the question of identifying Afrocentrist material as separate from mainstream Egyptology. This may either result in an "In Afrocentrism" section there, or in a merge into this article, or again in the creation of a separate Afrocentrist Egyptology article. The important thing is that enough skeptical eyes remain directed hither. dab (𒁳) 16:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
If you need to talk about Egypt and race, please take it to that article and don't get into it here.-- Parkwells ( talk) 02:21, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
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