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I've NPOV'ed this section, because I have trouble with the way it is worded --in absolutes. Further, certain elements that it claims are features of so-called "radical Afrocentrism" are, indeed, grounded in historical fact. I think there needs to be some recognition of the fact that what is scholarly Afrocentrism (a label with which some "Afrocentric" historians -- such as Ivan van Sertima -- take issue; they claim simply to be historians ) and what crosses some invisible line into "radical Afrocentrism" is something that is clearly debatable. To some white folks, any kind of so-called "Afrocentrism," period, is "radical" and unacceptable. [x] I mean there are folks who still think ancient dynastic Egyptians weren't black Africans and were, instead, Europeans, or Eurasian, or light-skinned Semites, or something -- a completely erroneous view that the wording in this section would seem to support. This needs clarification, as well as, perhaps, a point-counterpoint kind of presentation. deeceevoice 23:20, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"radical" Afrocentrism
an actual (encyclopedically notable) term?
El_C 11:14, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)Radical Afrocentrism
A more radical form of Afrocentrism is often associated with black supremacy, and has been sometimes been labeled pseudohistory. Radical Afrocentrism claims Africa to be the predominant source of world culture. In addition, the most radical Afrocentric histories view all African peoples as a distinct race with superior genetic features that they carry with them as they colonize other continents.
According to this radical Afrocentric view, the Ancient Egyptians are grouped with the numerous distinct sub-Saharan african peoples as a single dark-skinned race. Radical Afrocentrists often refer to Egypt as Kemet, the indigenous term for the country, which means "black land" (although traditionally this term has been understood to refer to the dark fertile soil beside the Nile, in contrast to the desert, or "red land" beyond, rather than skin color).
According to radical Afrocentrism, Africans were responsible for all the great innovations in ancient philosophy, science and technology. These were later 'stolen' by the Greeks and other European peoples. This argument is found in the book Stolen Legacy by George G. M. James, who derives many of his ideas from 18th century Masonic assumptions about Egyptian wisdom. Such views are copied in many other later books. Radical Afrocentrists have also claimed that Africans discovered America. The academic Molefi Kete Asante is the best known exponent of Radical Afrocentrism.
deeceevoice 23:28, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I know of no widely published (by a reputable publishing house) black historian who makes such claims of black superiority. If there are such people, kindly enlighten me with proof. deeceevoice 14:10, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
that's not really the definition of Afrocentrism. Almost every link I've read doesnt equate Eurocentrism with Afrocentrism. More generally Afrocentrism is myth taught as history, not a changing approach on Africa's "contribution to world history." This article is totally POV and factually incorrect. Somebody needs to look after it. Wareware 01:32, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[a]lmost every link I've read
and the non-comittal [s]omebody needs to look after it.
El_C 01:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)I just reread this talk page and a small correction to my comment above is due. When I said I am an African historian, I meant an historian who largely (but not only) specializes in studying African history (20th Century, Central and Southern Africa to be exact). It did not mean that I, myself, am of an African descent (nor does it mean that I am of a non-African descent). It was a grammatical error rather than a highly uncharactaristic revelation (those editors that know me, could attest as to how strictly I keep all my personal details: sex, age, ethnicity, etc., confidential). So, who aren't I remains topical! El_C 08:15, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I have reviewed and made changes to the article to reflect the NPOV issues alluded to by Wareware. And this is perhaps a good a time as any for me to eat my own words by attempting to follow my own advice: reading more closely. Yikes. Wareware, if the you find the changes I made insufficient, please reinstate the tag and I will give it another shot. Thanks, and sorry. El_C 03:47, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
should we include eurocentrism vs afrocentrism in the first section? I think El C's version is pretty npov and does not go into semantics and wordplay, which is very clean and helpful. In addition, quoting Ivan van Sertima seems to be pushing the Afrocentrist POV even more. If I remember correctly, this is the guy who wrote a book on the purported African visits of the Americas, way before the Vikings and Columbus. Is mentioning this guy in this section NPOV at all? I think it's okay to say that Afrocentrism is 1). worldview focusing on Africa and/or 2). pseudo-history focusing on Africa. No need to get into arguing about semantics, subjectivity objectivity schlobjectivity and more POVs. Wareware 10:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Passage reads:
An obvious example of European appropriation of black African culture is the common classification of obelisks, porticoes and columns as "Greek" architecture when, they are clearly Egyptian in origin. In fact, fluted columns are key architectural elements of the Step Pyramid at Sakkara, built approximately 2,400 years before the Greek conquest of Egypt
.
I deleted it, but it dosen't mean it can't be included in the historical Afrocentrism section (but it is out of place in the criticism one). But I did not reinsert it there, and would like to establish consensus on how professional scholars in the field view the above. Is it accepted as an approriation of African culture? That is has African origins? I have no idea. I would like to see some references that would place the premise into 'conventional' context.
I'm reinserting this. Maybe I'll tweak it a little. (I'll see once I decide where to put it.) Anyone who's studied architecture or taken a basic world history course in the West has "learned" that columns, porticos, etc., are elements of "classical Greek architecture." You want a photo of the temple? http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/dsteppyramid1.htm The temple is located in Memphis, of the old (and indisputably black African) empire. These are the earliest examples of columns in architecture. Example of other columns -- palmiform, lotus, and so-called "Corinthian" (the name given to the style is itself evidence of appropriation) columns are at Luxor in the Ramesseum, in Nubia. With regard to the dates, if memory serves Alexander the Great conquered Egypt aroud 300 BCE. Sakkarah was built beginning around 2400 BCE.
deeceevoice 12:39, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Okay, okay. For those in denial or otherwise challenged:
EGYPT THE BIRTHPLACE OF GREEK DECORATIVE ART.
A SCHOLAR of no less distinction than the late Sir Richard Burton wrote the other day of Egypt as "the inventor of the alphabet, the cradle of letters, the preacher of animism and metempsychosis, and, generally, the source of all human civilization." This is a broad statement; but it is literally true. Hence the irresistible fascination of Egyptology–a fascination which is quite unintelligible to those who are ignorant of the subject. I have sometimes been asked, for instance, how it happens that I–erewhile a novelist, and therefore a professed student of men and manners as they are–can take so lively an interest in the men and manners of five or six thousand years ago. But it is precisely because these men of five or six thousand years ago had manners, a written language, a literature, a school of art, and a settled government that we find them so interesting. Ourselves the creatures of a day, we delight in studies which help us to realize that we stand between the eternity of the past and the eternity of the future. Hence the charm of those sciences which unfold to us, page by page, the unwritten records of the world we live in. Hence the eagerness with which we listen to the Story of Creation as told by the geologist and the paleontologist. [Page 159]
From "Chapter 5: Egypt the Birthplace of Greek Decorative Art." by Amelia Ann Blanford Edwards (1831-1892). Publication: Pharaohs Fellahs and Explorers. by Amelia Edwards. New York: Harper & Brothers, 1891. (First edition.) pp. 158-192. http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/edwards/pharaohs/pharaohs-5.html
And from a college (Aquinas College somewhere in Michigan) course overview online on the globalization of world culture, written by a Dan Brooks, Ph.D. and head of the college's Humanities Program this bit of very, very (nowadays) well known (but, apparently not well known enough!) information:
While the art and architecture of Greece and Rome are often linked because of the deliberate imitation of Greek techniques in the Roman world, the connection of the roots of this tradition to Egypt has been established historically, but is not often emphasized. As we saw in Chapter Four, the inspiration for Greek monumental sculpture and architecture came as a direct result of Greeks living in Egypt (when Greek mercenaries were allowed to settle in the Nile Delta in the seventh century BCE)1. This kind of foreign settlement in Egypt was rarely allowed throughout much of its ancient history, and the Greeks' exposure to Egyptian culture was a revelation that they brought back with them to Greece.
Brooks now can say it's "not often emphasized," but ten, 20, 30 years ago, it was downright freakin' buried -- as evidenced by the rampant ignorance on the subject in many quarters, still, today. deeceevoice 17:58, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Another web entry:
Architectural Styles of Classical Columns The column is a fundamental architectural element and one of the defining characteristics of Classical architecture.
The Greeks borrowed the column from the Egyptians and synthesized it into an architectural style that was characteristically their own. The first fluted columns date back to Egypt's Middle Kingdom (2040 - 1640 BC). The principle architectural ornamentation used by the Greeks was also derived from Eastern predecessors.
http://www.bobvila.com/ArticleLibrary/Location/Entryway/ColumnStyles.html deeceevoice 18:05, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
And: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/columns.htm
I've searched but cannot find photographs of columns w/triangulated capitals that are clearly direct precursors of the Corinthian-style column, with acanthus-like leaves, sometimes lotus-form, sometimes palmiform. But they exist. Clearly, columns as a feature of Greek and Roman architecture were taken directly from ancient, black Egyptian architecture. Not even THAT has been disputed by the likes of Lefkowitz who does at least claim that Egyptian art and architecture heavily influenced Greco-Roman culture. (Have you read her?) I have. deeceevoice 18:14, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Before I adress you comments I would like to make certain thing perfectly clear. You must —stop— from continuing to make exclalmations such as For those in denial or otherwise challenged
and many others. I have already asked you to cease from these, and it is not fair that I would have to reiterate that a second time (!) It is tautological and mildly insulting. No, I don't little about any of these things – this is the point though, you should expect the reader to be unfamilliar with it, too (that's the point of an encyclopedia). I have not read Lefkowitz (my accoutn of her is based on book reviews, etc. from reputable sources), I am not familliar with any of the scholars cited above, but it is important that we understand how their theories are generally viewed by academia as a whole, again, regadless what we oursleves think of academia.
El_C 22:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I wish to recapsulate much of what I said above eversince I've been made aware of some of the problematic components this article exhibits. One issue that I find reoccures and needs to be better addressed systemically, is that the reader is often faced with claims made by Afrocentric scholars, but these are not consistently enough offset by what a consensus of (if such exists, if not we qualify that) and how critical scholars respond to these. We already established that Afrocentric theories are, in that sense, 'disputed,' so we do need to know how each specific claim —not each-and-every one necessarily, but as a general rule— is countered (or if a claim isn't countered, we qualify it as such; again, as a rule, we can allow for exceptions), otherwise our claim for NPOV becomes tenuous. I am confident that by following these steps we can arrive at an article that is accepted by all parties as NPOV. Thanks. El_C 11:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The argument against presenting both sides, both views of Afrocentrism is simply bull. They are competing concepts, and each deserves to be heard. I insist on balance in this piece! The pro and con is reinstated. deeceevoice 11:58, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In some regards, yes. Funny. I don't recall anyone calling (Scandinavian) Thor Hyerdahl "afrocentric" when in the 1970s (after Kon Tiki) he sailed the Ra I and Ra II from Egypt to the New World to and wrote about it. I don't recall anyone calling (white) New Zealand archaeologist, linguist and Harvard historian Barry Fell "afrocentric" when he published Saga America in 1979. Or Dr. Andrzej Wiercinski of the University of Warsaw "afrocentrist" when his 1972 study of Olmec skeletal remains revealed distinctly Africanoid characteristics. (Wanna read it yourself? http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/content.html ; wanna see an Olmec head? http://www.mesoweb.com/features/jpl/01.html )
Oh, my bad! "Afrocentric" -- that title applies only to black folks with the effrontery to challenge white/Eurocentric scholarship, doesn't it?!! Ivan van Sertima's just some delusional half-wit -- never mind his many honors and his recognition by UNESCO (mentioned in the article and edited out simply because Wareware wrote of his claims that Africans actually could have sailed to the New World before Columbus). You see, only crazed, white-race-hating, revisionist black folks trying to compensate, to find a "therapeutic" remedy for feelings of inherent inferiority can be afrocentric. No credible white historian could possibly believe such claptrap! Could they? Oh, of course not! (Downright pathetic.) deeceevoice 15:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I intend to remove the section of "radical Afrocentrism" entirely. I think passing reference can be made to it in the pro and con section. Afrocentrist historical theory has credibility -- which is why it has been debated and continues to be debated. It cannot be merely debunked outright. Forty years ago, conventional wisdom had it that the ancient Egyptians were white. When I raised the issue of the blackness of ancient Egyptians with my fourth-grade teacher in the late 1950's I was told I was incorrect. Two years later, the Aswan Dam was built and much of Nubia flooded. But the Temple of Thebes was sawed into pieces, dismantled and then reassembled. I recall in sixth-grade social studies class seeing full-color spreads in "Jr. Scholastic" of huge stone renderings of clearly black African pharaohs seated before the temple. I had been vindicated. (I never brought up the matter with my fourth-grade teacher, who was still at the school -- but he must have been mortified.) :-p
Now it is common for history projects developed by the mainstream media, such as The History Channel and Discovery to readily acknowledge the black Africanness of ancient dynastic Egypt. Forensic reconstruction of royal Egyptian mummies has borne out the black African ethnicity of ancient dynastic Egypt again and again. The wigs, architectural and monumental artifacts bear this out. So, things change. But not quickly enough. People are still abysmally ignorant, still straitjacketed into the old lies and half-truths. In the face of this continued ignorance it is far too easy for individuals to find extreme proponents of one idea or another and then use them as strawmen to paint the entire Afrocentric paradigm as somehow crackpot. Every discipline has its extremists, its eccentrics, even its fools. But this is what Dr. Molefi Asante of Temple University has to say about scholarly Afrocentrist thought (from his scathing review of Lefkowitz's Not Out of Africa):
Professor Lefkowitz has three main axes to grind in her book. The first is that a student told her that she believed Socrates was black. The second is that the Greek gods came from Africa which she attributes to Martin Bernal, the author of Black Athena, and to Cheikh Anta Diop, the author of The African Origin of Civilization. The third is that freemasonry is the source of George James' claim in his book Stolen Legacy that the Greeks got many of their major ideas from the Egyptians
The main point made by Afrocentrists is that Greece owes a substantial debt to Egypt and that Egypt was anterior to Greece and should be considered a major contributor to our current knowledge. I think I can say without a doubt that Afrocentrists do not spend time arguing that either Socrates or Cleopatra were black. I have never seen these ideas written by an Afrocentrist nor have I heard them discussed in any Afrocentric intellectual forums. Professor Lefkowitz provides us with a hearsay incident which she probably reports accurately. It is not an Afrocentric argument....
Professor Lefkowitz makes a statement on page 1 of her book that "In American universities today not everyone knows what extreme Afrocentists are doing in their classrooms. Or even if they do know, they choose not to ask questions." We are off to a bad start. Who are these extreme Afrocentrists? She does not provide us with one example of something that an extreme Afrocentrist is teaching in a classroom. Not one. But already the reader is inclined to believe that something exists where nothing exists. No matter how passionate, assertion is not evidence. What Afrocentrists do teach is that you cannot begin the discussion of world history with the Greeks. Creating clouds of suspicion about scholarly colleagues in order to support a racial mythology developed over the past centuries to accompany European enslavement of Africans, imperialism, and exploitation will not dissipate the fact of Greece's debt to Africa.
<What are the substantial arguments advance by Afrocentrists, not the hearsay comments of a student or some rhetorical repartee between public debaters? What Afrocentrists articulate (see Asante, Kemet, Afrocentricity and Knowledge. Trenton: Africa World Press, 1990; Theophile Obenga, A Lost Tradition: African Philosophy in World History, Philadelphia: Source, 1995) is that the Greeks were students of the Egyptians. Readers should see the works of Yosef Ben-Jochannon and George G. M. James for themselves rather than rely on the misinterpretations and distortions of others.
Near the end of his essay, Asante states very clearly (not block indented; it's too much trouble, but word for word): ---
"On these facts we [Afrocentrist scholars] stand:
"Among Greek historians and others who wrote about what the Greeks learned from Egypt are Homer, Herodotus, Iamblicus, Aetius, Diodorous Siculus, Diogenes Laertius, Plutarch, and Plato. Who were some of the Greek students of Africans, according to the ancient records? They were Plato, Solon, Lycurgus, Democritus, Anaxamander, Anaxagoras, Herodotus, Homer, Thales, Pythagoras, Eudoxus, and Isocrates and many others. Some of these students even wrote of their studies in Egypt as well."
Those wishing to read the entire essay may do so by clicking the link provided in the article. deeceevoice 18:55, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I changed the organization of the article, including removing "radical Afrocentrism" altogether and trying to incorporate that into criticism/rebuttal sections toward the end of the article. I also added a section on specific areas of disagreement in the historical record between Afrocentrists and traditional historians. I'm sure you all will find things that need to be corrected or reverted, but I think most of what I did is sound.
I also tried to get rid of what seemed to be to a "hot" tone in much of the article, some of it needlessly denigrating Afrocentrists and some of it needlessly denigrating those scholars who have disagreed with Afrocentric scholarship. No matter how hot-under-the-collar some participants in the historical debate may get, and no matter what sinister motives they may attribute to those with whom they disagree, we really should just ignore the overwrought emotions that some of the participants may have and concentrate on figuring out what the scholarly consensus is. Babajobu 20:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Need help in establishing how the critical scholarship tends to view claims made by Afrocentric scholars. Few participants are familliar with this topic, except for one editor who is markedly on the Afrocentric side.
I believe it is a fair enough assessment that all parties can agree to. Again, I have no strong opinion either way, I am simply unfamilliar with the subject, but it should be evident, I think, that this issue especially is key one, and that it remains outstanding.
El_C 22:36, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)I still haven't really read the section that treats Songhay, Mali, etc. (I guess because it still really galls me that subject matter I studied routinely 30 years ago is still largely ignored.) But, frankly, I don't see why it's included. This is not, after all, an article on African history. It seems to me, though important in an overall sense, superfluous to this discussion -- at lesat in such detail. Further, it needs to be cleaned up. One of the first things I notice is a subject-verb disagreement. deeceevoice
[c]entered or focused on Africa or African peoples, especially in relation to historical or cultural influence
, period. And the section I authored is very much in tune with that historically broader meaning of the term. And it is phrased in far less propagandist terms than much of the remaining article. Furthermore, if you see grammatical errors whilst skimming, why don't you correct them. I may have erred in skimming, too, in this article, but I still did not call to attention the grammatical errors I encountered, I just cleaned it. Lastly, we will see what editors end up deciding is superfleous. What an irony it is that more recent contributions by Africans are discarded in the name of one branch of Afrocentrism to highlight more ancient history. It truly blows my mind. Please don't skim this comment.
El_C 09:48, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)Because there's no point in reworking something that's poorly worded if I don't think it should be included in the first place.
Second, it seems to me the section on specific criticisms of Afrocentrism simply restates in a wordier manner the last paragraph (if I recall correectly) of the section on criticism -- which it seems to me should be nenamed to reflect the fact that it presents the views of Afrocentrists and their supporters, as well as their detractors. deeceevoice
My earlier edits were an attempt to impartially and reasonably intelligent state what Afrocentrism is and to characterize the viewpoint of its proponents without the constant sniping and some downright silly assertions of some of the earlier versions and then let the rest of the article deal with the criticisms of it. As it was, there WAS no sensible definition of the term -- what with all that vague, amorphous nonsense about "addressing the concerns" of this and that. The definition of it was damning in and of itself, because it placed the paradigm in a kind of emotional/subjective context right off the bat -- which was/is completely unacceptable. deeceevoice 11:17, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Finally (at least for purposes of this post:-p), the statement is made that "radical afrocentrists charge racism" or something of the sort. That is funny. Reputable historians (indeed, anyone pretty much with any common sense) of all ethnicities, across specialties widely acknowledge the role of racism in the Eurocentric skewing of history. That's certainly not a criticism that has been levelled by only "radical afrocentrists," or afrocentrists, or blacks, or "minorities." It's an accepted fact. Hell, the racism is evident in the writings of historians in statements made, judgments reached, in the selectivity and veracity of information presented. The very fact that European "scholars" looked at the black, monumental (literally) evidence of Nubia, Memphis, Karnak and then deliberately chose to portray Egyptian civilization as white or, at its darkest, some sort of Eurasian-Semitic mix is nothing but racism. Brit Basil Davidson scoffed disdainfully at European notions that Timbuktu had been built by some "wandering tribe" of Europeans, when there was absolutely no evidence of it -- merely the racist assumption that black Africans were too inherently backward and utterly incapable of doing so. I mean these m.f.'s actually wrote that kind of crap in their treatises! And then there's the fact that for centuries, world history courses (including the one I took when in school) began with Greece and Rome -- when the Egyptian imprint on Greco-Roman history is indelible (try as racist scholars might to expunge it). Eurocentric history is riddled with such blatant, purposeful omissions, obfuscations and outright lies. deeceevoice
And there is a general consensus that traditional, Western historicism was blatantly racist. To write in a manner that implies only Afrocentrists have a problem with racist accounts of history -- as though they have some axe to grind about a problem that no one else sees is simply downright disingenuous. deeceevoice 11:17, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
And the hilarious, amazingly absurd thing is that someone in this discussion feels somehow compelled to insert some thoroughly silly comment about how they weren't "bad people"! *chuckling* (Only a white guy!) WTF? (They were nice people, and their criticis are "overwrought." ROTFLMBAO.) deeceevoice
But, frankly, who gives a damn, anyway? It is quite clear to any serious student of history that many of them simply -- and knowingly -- twisted "history" in the service of a white supremacist weltanschauung. You cannot tell us that those Europeans who looked upon the faces of King Menes and Tutankamun and Queen Tiye (nappy afro and all), who saw the wooly, braided, afro and dreadlocked wigs of Egyptian royalty; their pronounced, forward-slanting profiles; their full lips and broad cheekbones; their BLACK countenances, saw "Eurasian Semites." 1 deeceevoice
But that is what they "recorded." Gee, (*thinking hard*) I don't know if they were "bad people" or not. And I couldn't give a flying f***. It is of absolutely no import. After all, they're long dead and long ago rotted to dust -- and they're certainly not coming to my place for a tête-a-tête; it ain't like we're gonna have tea. But what I do know is that they were a bunch of racist, lying bastards. And that's the point. deeceevoice 05:46, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Very well covered(!?)
With a great measure of irony: it is –not– very well covered time/space-wise in this encylopedia, actually. Much, much less so than European issues, for example (a 'Eurocentrism' which I am astonished Deeceevoice overlooks so lightly). Still, I have no problem with deleting it (just to prove that I am not 'attached' to it, as Deeceevoice suggests), but I will not concede my more fundamental point in this regard (that this should not be an ancient history-specific article). So I am deleting it. If Deeceevoice feel it has merit, s/he can reinstate it, and make whatever modifications to it s/he sees fit.
El_C 13:07, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)Added an external link to a fascinating abstract at the National Library of Medicine. Was surprised to see Afrocentricity discussed in a peer-reviewed medical journal! Babajobu 15:16, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Deeceevoice, I implore you to take a chill pill. I haven't been around Wikipedia very long, and its protocol is just as unnatural to me as it also still seems to be to you. I'm contrary and argumentative by nature, and never happier than when casting aspersions at the motivation and character of people who disagree with me. But unfortunately for both of us that is not how encyclopedias are made. If you keep up the dinner-table ranting and mocking of your collaborators on this article, the talkpage will be more fun to read, but the Afrocentrism article will be a piece of crap. So please, in the interests of bringing a knowledge of Afrocentrism to the benighted masses who have so little appreciation of Afrocentric contributions, take that chill pill. Wikipedia:No personal attacks, Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Wikipedia:Ownership of articles, Wikipedia:Assume good faith, Wikipedia:Writers rules of engagement, Wikipedia:Profanity, Wikipedia:Wikiquette, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view Babajobu 11:43, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Is the omission of Ethiopia from the lists of Arican polities at the beginning of this article an oversight? Or are there reasons why this nation & its history is not included as one of the subjects studied? -- llywrch 18:47, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hopefuly the following list of works will get us one step closer towards getting an historiographically balanced article with respects to Afroecentric scholarship; and hopefuly these will also prove useful to address the two opposite concerns — the argument against Afrocentric scholarship's vilification posed by DC, and the argument against its overrepresentation as and/or vs. scholarly consensus, as posed by WW. [I am not familliar with the contents of any of these. List's order is random as per the search querry - sadly, few were linkable at the source]:
El_C 06:40, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
-- "Ancient Egypt’s Role in European History"
A link of possible interest: http://www.trinicenter.com/kwame/20010615c.htm
Note that Prof. Nantambu is a history professor at Kent State U. -- not some "radical" crackpot publishing vanity tracts using Publish-It in his basement. deeceevoice 10:36, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
And to say that is to say what? You asked for evidence of support for Afrocentric views among scholars. Presumably, the list of scholars and academicians provided in the article was insufficient. So, as I come across support for such views in mainstream academia (this is not a concerted/focused endeavor), I'm inserting that info in the discussion. I mention "radical," because this article -- unfortunately -- has lapsed back into the same vague language about "radical" Afrocentrism. (I have deleted references, when I saw them, to "black supremacy" and may do so again w/regard to the "radical" business.) Since this article discounts "radical" Afrocentrism outright without even defining it in any acceptable manner, I have no idea what "qualifies" someone to comment on, presumably, mainstream garden-variety Afrocentrism. I mention Nantambu's credentials because, presumably, the man has some credibility; he's on the faculty of a fairly mainstream U.S. university with a strong reputation -- which, to my way of thinking, means he's not some crackpot "radical" Afrocentrist. If, however, you would like to define the precepts of "radical Afrocentrism" in mainstream academia so as to provide some guidance to us regarding who does or doesn't have sufficient credibility to support or debunk the Afrocentric approach to the study of history, have at it. deeceevoice 05:59, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why is the bibliography in a smaller font than the rest of the piece? (Am I suddenly in need of bifocals?) Is this Wiki style? deeceevoice 06:00, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Come on. Serious question. The bifocals thing was facetious, of course; I can read it fine. But why is the print a different size? IS it Wiki style? I haven't noticed it elsewhere. If not, it should be changed. deeceevoice 08:16, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Cool. This explanation was at least helpful. I've got no problem with it. In light of the other articles I've seen on Wiki, it just looked weird. deeceevoice 13:52, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Areas of study by Afrocentrists
Afrocentric history traces and emphasizes important contributions of blacks, beginning with the high civilizations of Africa, particularly Egypt and Kush. It also focuses on black, or Tamil, southern India before the Persian incursions, as well as on the black African participation in the Moorish domination of the Iberian peninsula during the Middle Ages— and, among others, on the sizable empires of Ghana, Mali, and Songhai.
The introductory definition mentions "black contributions." Listing these specific areas of interest, I think, gives the wrong impression; it is too limiting. There are Afrocentric scholars (in terms of the lens through which they interpret history) who focus on black contributions throughout history and across the globe -- and in the modern era, as well. I think it's best to simply leave this out. If there is a desire to mention these areas of focus (and I can see that it could be useful to do so), it should be included in the article in another fashion -- one that won't give the false impression that these are the only areas of study, or even the primary, areas of study/expertise of Afrocentric historians. That is simply not the case. deeceevoice 08:24, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There are ways to cover this topic without collapsing into Deeceevoice's compulsive, Tourette's-ish need to pile on descriptions of omnipresent white racism (prejudicial evil racist white supremacist bigotry paradigms, and so forth), and also to avoid the sort of scoffing condescension of some of the rest of the article ("contempt" and "dismissiveness" toward a "therapeutic" ideology). The Encarta Africana article on Afrocentricity is written by Molefi Kete Asante and I think he provides an excellent descriptive account that people from most perspectives could agree upon. I think we should use that as a sort of guide. If you guys don't have access to it, I'll provide an excerpt here that I think is "fair use." This is the "Origins and Orientations" section of the article. Have a read. Babajobu 15:25, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
II ORIGINS AND ORIENTATIONS
"Afrocentricity is an intellectual perspective deriving its name from the centrality of African people and phenomena in the interpretation of data. Maulana Karenga, a major figure in the Afrocentric Movement, says, “It is a quality of thought that is rooted in the cultural image and human interest of African people.” The Afrocentric school was founded by Molefi Kete Asante in the late 20th century with the launching of the book, Afrocentricity, in which theory and practice were merged as necessary elements in a rise to consciousness. Among the early influences were Kariamu Welsh, Abu Abarry, C.T. Keto, Linda James Myers, J. A. Sofola, and others. Afrocentricity examined some of the same issues that confronted a group calling themselves the Black Psychologists, who argued along lines established by Bobby Wright, Amos Wilson, Na’im Akbar, Kobi Kambon, Wade Nobles, Patricia Newton, and several others. African American scholars trained in political science and sociology, such as Leonard Jeffries, Tony Martin, Vivian Gordon, Kwame Nantambu, Barbara Wheeler, James Turner, and Charshee McIntyre, were greatly influenced by the works of Yosef Ben-Jochannon and John Henrik Clarke and had already begun the process of seeking a non-European way to conceptualize the African experience prior to the development of Afrocentric theory.
"On the other hand, Afrocentricity finds its inspirational source in the Kawaida philosophy’s long-standing concern that the cultural crisis is a defining characteristic of 20th century African reality in the diaspora just as the nationality crisis is the principal issue on the African continent. (Developed by Karenga, professor and chair of the Department of Black Studies at California State University, Long Beach, Kawaida is defined briefly as “an ongoing synthesis of the best of African thought and practice in constant exchange with the world.”) Afrocentricity sought to address these crises by repositioning the African person and African reality from the margins of European thought, attitude, and doctrines to a centered, therefore positively located, place within the realm of science and culture. Afrocentricity finds its grounding in the intellectual and activist precursors who first suggested culture as a critical corrective to a displaced agency among Africans. Recognizing that Africans in the diaspora had been deliberately deculturalized and made to accept the conqueror’s codes of conduct and modes of behavior, the Afrocentrist discovered that the interpretative and theoretical grounds had also been moved. Thus, synthesizing the best of Alexander Crummel, Martin Robison Delany, Edward Wilmot Blyden, Marcus Garvey, Paul Robeson, Anna Julia Cooper, Ida B. Wells-Barnett, Larry Neal, Carter G. Woodson, Willie Abraham, Frantz Fanon, Malcolm X, Cheikh Anta Diop, and W. E. B. Du Bois in his later writings, Afrocentricity projects an innovation in criticism and interpretation. It is therefore in some sense a paradigm, a framework, and a dynamic. However, it is not a worldview and should not be confused with Africanity, which is essentially the way African people, any African people, live according to the customs, traditions, and mores of their society. One can be born in Africa, follow African styles and modes of living, and practice an African religion and not be Afrocentric. To be Afrocentric one has to have a self-conscious awareness of the need for centering. Thus, those individuals who live in Africa and recognize the decentering of their minds because of European colonization may self-consciously choose to be demonstratively in tune with their own agency. If so, this becomes a revolutionary act of will that cannot be achieved merely by wearing African clothes or having an African name."
Babajobu 15:25, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think there a POV error underlying this article.
I think the article should stress more clearly that this evaluation of Western scholarship is merely the point of view of Afrocentrism advocates - rather than hinting or stating that it is a fact.
Something like this ought to do it:
Both Afrocentrists and anti-Afrocentrists could agree with the sentence above as being an accurate portrayal of how Afrocentric scholar view Western scholars. "Yep, that's how they see us." & "Yes, that's how they are."
I'd also like to see a bit about Western defenses of this criticism, for example the claim occasionally made that the West is somewhat aware of its own ethnocentrism and has taken pains to compensate for it - indeed, even to seek out and embrace aspects of non-Western cultures. One historion (Toynbee, I think) even claims this quest to find and cherish extra-cultural aspects as the crowning jewel of the Western ethos: the relentless, un-ending quest of Western Civilization to become "better" by seeking "the good".
Also, I'm not sure that the West portrays itself as the origin of all world civilization. The British historian Arnold Toynbee admittedly begins with England, but only as an example of a larger entity he calls "Western Christendom". He finds two dozen other similar units, separated in both space and time, and endeavors to trace how some (not all!) derive from others.
Toynbee traces only a couple of the existent world civilizations to ancient Greece and Rome, by the way. Only Western Christendom and the Eastern Orthodox cultural spheres, if I recalll correctly. The Islamic and Hindu cultural spheres owe nothing to the Hellenistic sphere; nor do the one or two East Asian cultural spheres.
Ironically, Toynbee views ancient Egypt as having no predecessors or successors. I wonder how current Afrocentric thought reacts to that. Do today's afrocentrists believe that ancient Egpyt was the orgion of all civilization, or even had a major impact on any of the four or five civilizations in existence at the close of the 20th century? -- Uncle Ed (talk) 20:10, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
Intro paragraph includes this:
I don't know what (a) "posits Greco-Roman beginnings" or (b) "posits black Egyptian beginnings" means. It looks like a claim that ALL CIVILIZATION began with (a) ancient Greece & Rome or (b) ancient Egypt. Is that what everyone else thinks this means?
If so, I'm not sure this is a fair representation of the conflict between Afrocentrists and others. But I must confess my ignorance: the only world history book I've ever made a serious attempt at reading was Toynbee's A Study of History, in which he traces Western Civilization (currently centering on Europe and the U.S.) to Greco-Roman beginnings. But apart from Eastern Orthodoxy he does not attribute any other extant civilization to Greece or Rome. In particular, he claims that the Islamic Sphere, the Hindu Sphere and the Far Eastern Sphere developed independently of the Graeco-Roman Empire (or Hellenic Sphere, as he terms it). -- Uncle Ed (talk) 19:04, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
They are incredibly potent, Ed, and they take me, so to speak, from the heights of Paradiso to the depths of Inferno, and everything in between (read: much mood swinging). But I should be back to being boring and annoying (as opposed to borring, annoying, and unpredictable) in the very near future. I am developing an empathy to drug addicts, though! Thanks for your concern, I appreciate it. :)
I want to touch on your thoughts regarding American civilizations briefly. While Central and South American civilizations, much like the African ones (excluding Egypt), arose thousands of years after the four (Afro-?) Asiatic regions (including Egypt), what is noteworthy, I think, is that like (and arguably, even more so than) each of the four (Afro-?) Asiatic ones, these arose independently of one another. But what my note above failed to convey (due to a shortcoming by yours truly), was that I mentioned these four (in relation to the word begin) strictly in terms of periodization. Otherwise, it is, indeed, quite valid to add these (American and non-Egyptian, African ones) to 'the list,' since, again, not only did they merely 'begin' (as everything does, without exception) but theirs was an 'independent beginning,' too. So I place a certain weight on these qualifications; i.e. what began more-or-less 'first' viz. what began later, but nonetheless, (also) outside of one another. Hope that makes sense; brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio! ;) El_C 05:56, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This article has been made infinitely better since the last time I dropped in. Well done. You better throw up a wall and dig a moat, Deeceevoice must be raising an army. Babajobu 11:32, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The significant changes made on 4.24.05 came from my hand (I registered after I made the changes). I deleted sections, and significantly altered the language. While the earlier version was well written, it was clear that the authors had not read any of the central texts that deal with Afrocentrism as a concept. The focus on the race of the Ancient Egyptians for example is not one discussed within scholarly circles. Still important though is the argument that Egypt was an African civilization--a stance that should be straightforward at this point. Whenever I could I tried to emphasize what the Ancients themselves noted, as well as the lack of significant research that shows a non-African origin for Egyptian culture. I felt too much emphasis was given to Lefkowitz' work, because Lefkowitz to my knowledge has not even published significant works in her own field much less that of African history. Furthermore it does not appear that Lefkowitz has read any of the actual books that Afrocentrists have written. This is a significant problem--no one for example cares what Cleopatra looks like except for Lefkowitz. For a much better critique, Dean Robinson's work on Black Nationalism is solid...because Dr. Robinson at least READ the works.
Toynbee was a white supremacist. Here I am not necessarily making a normative judgment, but rather describing a fact. To state that Africa was a backwards continent that created no civilizations of worth is empirically false. If this is "mainstream scholarship" then we're in trouble.
Given that the Ancients considered their own civilization to originate in Nubia, it makes a great deal of sense that the Ancients would sometimes depict themselves as Nubians. But, as Egypt was a multi-cultural civilization that found itself invaded by Southwest Asians it also makes sense that sometimes they would depict themselves as looking different from Nubians. So I made changes to reflect this.
The biggest problem now is the lack of a proper transition to the Rastafari section.
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I've NPOV'ed this section, because I have trouble with the way it is worded --in absolutes. Further, certain elements that it claims are features of so-called "radical Afrocentrism" are, indeed, grounded in historical fact. I think there needs to be some recognition of the fact that what is scholarly Afrocentrism (a label with which some "Afrocentric" historians -- such as Ivan van Sertima -- take issue; they claim simply to be historians ) and what crosses some invisible line into "radical Afrocentrism" is something that is clearly debatable. To some white folks, any kind of so-called "Afrocentrism," period, is "radical" and unacceptable. [x] I mean there are folks who still think ancient dynastic Egyptians weren't black Africans and were, instead, Europeans, or Eurasian, or light-skinned Semites, or something -- a completely erroneous view that the wording in this section would seem to support. This needs clarification, as well as, perhaps, a point-counterpoint kind of presentation. deeceevoice 23:20, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"radical" Afrocentrism
an actual (encyclopedically notable) term?
El_C 11:14, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)Radical Afrocentrism
A more radical form of Afrocentrism is often associated with black supremacy, and has been sometimes been labeled pseudohistory. Radical Afrocentrism claims Africa to be the predominant source of world culture. In addition, the most radical Afrocentric histories view all African peoples as a distinct race with superior genetic features that they carry with them as they colonize other continents.
According to this radical Afrocentric view, the Ancient Egyptians are grouped with the numerous distinct sub-Saharan african peoples as a single dark-skinned race. Radical Afrocentrists often refer to Egypt as Kemet, the indigenous term for the country, which means "black land" (although traditionally this term has been understood to refer to the dark fertile soil beside the Nile, in contrast to the desert, or "red land" beyond, rather than skin color).
According to radical Afrocentrism, Africans were responsible for all the great innovations in ancient philosophy, science and technology. These were later 'stolen' by the Greeks and other European peoples. This argument is found in the book Stolen Legacy by George G. M. James, who derives many of his ideas from 18th century Masonic assumptions about Egyptian wisdom. Such views are copied in many other later books. Radical Afrocentrists have also claimed that Africans discovered America. The academic Molefi Kete Asante is the best known exponent of Radical Afrocentrism.
deeceevoice 23:28, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I know of no widely published (by a reputable publishing house) black historian who makes such claims of black superiority. If there are such people, kindly enlighten me with proof. deeceevoice 14:10, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
that's not really the definition of Afrocentrism. Almost every link I've read doesnt equate Eurocentrism with Afrocentrism. More generally Afrocentrism is myth taught as history, not a changing approach on Africa's "contribution to world history." This article is totally POV and factually incorrect. Somebody needs to look after it. Wareware 01:32, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[a]lmost every link I've read
and the non-comittal [s]omebody needs to look after it.
El_C 01:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)I just reread this talk page and a small correction to my comment above is due. When I said I am an African historian, I meant an historian who largely (but not only) specializes in studying African history (20th Century, Central and Southern Africa to be exact). It did not mean that I, myself, am of an African descent (nor does it mean that I am of a non-African descent). It was a grammatical error rather than a highly uncharactaristic revelation (those editors that know me, could attest as to how strictly I keep all my personal details: sex, age, ethnicity, etc., confidential). So, who aren't I remains topical! El_C 08:15, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I have reviewed and made changes to the article to reflect the NPOV issues alluded to by Wareware. And this is perhaps a good a time as any for me to eat my own words by attempting to follow my own advice: reading more closely. Yikes. Wareware, if the you find the changes I made insufficient, please reinstate the tag and I will give it another shot. Thanks, and sorry. El_C 03:47, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
should we include eurocentrism vs afrocentrism in the first section? I think El C's version is pretty npov and does not go into semantics and wordplay, which is very clean and helpful. In addition, quoting Ivan van Sertima seems to be pushing the Afrocentrist POV even more. If I remember correctly, this is the guy who wrote a book on the purported African visits of the Americas, way before the Vikings and Columbus. Is mentioning this guy in this section NPOV at all? I think it's okay to say that Afrocentrism is 1). worldview focusing on Africa and/or 2). pseudo-history focusing on Africa. No need to get into arguing about semantics, subjectivity objectivity schlobjectivity and more POVs. Wareware 10:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Passage reads:
An obvious example of European appropriation of black African culture is the common classification of obelisks, porticoes and columns as "Greek" architecture when, they are clearly Egyptian in origin. In fact, fluted columns are key architectural elements of the Step Pyramid at Sakkara, built approximately 2,400 years before the Greek conquest of Egypt
.
I deleted it, but it dosen't mean it can't be included in the historical Afrocentrism section (but it is out of place in the criticism one). But I did not reinsert it there, and would like to establish consensus on how professional scholars in the field view the above. Is it accepted as an approriation of African culture? That is has African origins? I have no idea. I would like to see some references that would place the premise into 'conventional' context.
I'm reinserting this. Maybe I'll tweak it a little. (I'll see once I decide where to put it.) Anyone who's studied architecture or taken a basic world history course in the West has "learned" that columns, porticos, etc., are elements of "classical Greek architecture." You want a photo of the temple? http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/dsteppyramid1.htm The temple is located in Memphis, of the old (and indisputably black African) empire. These are the earliest examples of columns in architecture. Example of other columns -- palmiform, lotus, and so-called "Corinthian" (the name given to the style is itself evidence of appropriation) columns are at Luxor in the Ramesseum, in Nubia. With regard to the dates, if memory serves Alexander the Great conquered Egypt aroud 300 BCE. Sakkarah was built beginning around 2400 BCE.
deeceevoice 12:39, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Okay, okay. For those in denial or otherwise challenged:
EGYPT THE BIRTHPLACE OF GREEK DECORATIVE ART.
A SCHOLAR of no less distinction than the late Sir Richard Burton wrote the other day of Egypt as "the inventor of the alphabet, the cradle of letters, the preacher of animism and metempsychosis, and, generally, the source of all human civilization." This is a broad statement; but it is literally true. Hence the irresistible fascination of Egyptology–a fascination which is quite unintelligible to those who are ignorant of the subject. I have sometimes been asked, for instance, how it happens that I–erewhile a novelist, and therefore a professed student of men and manners as they are–can take so lively an interest in the men and manners of five or six thousand years ago. But it is precisely because these men of five or six thousand years ago had manners, a written language, a literature, a school of art, and a settled government that we find them so interesting. Ourselves the creatures of a day, we delight in studies which help us to realize that we stand between the eternity of the past and the eternity of the future. Hence the charm of those sciences which unfold to us, page by page, the unwritten records of the world we live in. Hence the eagerness with which we listen to the Story of Creation as told by the geologist and the paleontologist. [Page 159]
From "Chapter 5: Egypt the Birthplace of Greek Decorative Art." by Amelia Ann Blanford Edwards (1831-1892). Publication: Pharaohs Fellahs and Explorers. by Amelia Edwards. New York: Harper & Brothers, 1891. (First edition.) pp. 158-192. http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/edwards/pharaohs/pharaohs-5.html
And from a college (Aquinas College somewhere in Michigan) course overview online on the globalization of world culture, written by a Dan Brooks, Ph.D. and head of the college's Humanities Program this bit of very, very (nowadays) well known (but, apparently not well known enough!) information:
While the art and architecture of Greece and Rome are often linked because of the deliberate imitation of Greek techniques in the Roman world, the connection of the roots of this tradition to Egypt has been established historically, but is not often emphasized. As we saw in Chapter Four, the inspiration for Greek monumental sculpture and architecture came as a direct result of Greeks living in Egypt (when Greek mercenaries were allowed to settle in the Nile Delta in the seventh century BCE)1. This kind of foreign settlement in Egypt was rarely allowed throughout much of its ancient history, and the Greeks' exposure to Egyptian culture was a revelation that they brought back with them to Greece.
Brooks now can say it's "not often emphasized," but ten, 20, 30 years ago, it was downright freakin' buried -- as evidenced by the rampant ignorance on the subject in many quarters, still, today. deeceevoice 17:58, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Another web entry:
Architectural Styles of Classical Columns The column is a fundamental architectural element and one of the defining characteristics of Classical architecture.
The Greeks borrowed the column from the Egyptians and synthesized it into an architectural style that was characteristically their own. The first fluted columns date back to Egypt's Middle Kingdom (2040 - 1640 BC). The principle architectural ornamentation used by the Greeks was also derived from Eastern predecessors.
http://www.bobvila.com/ArticleLibrary/Location/Entryway/ColumnStyles.html deeceevoice 18:05, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
And: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/columns.htm
I've searched but cannot find photographs of columns w/triangulated capitals that are clearly direct precursors of the Corinthian-style column, with acanthus-like leaves, sometimes lotus-form, sometimes palmiform. But they exist. Clearly, columns as a feature of Greek and Roman architecture were taken directly from ancient, black Egyptian architecture. Not even THAT has been disputed by the likes of Lefkowitz who does at least claim that Egyptian art and architecture heavily influenced Greco-Roman culture. (Have you read her?) I have. deeceevoice 18:14, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Before I adress you comments I would like to make certain thing perfectly clear. You must —stop— from continuing to make exclalmations such as For those in denial or otherwise challenged
and many others. I have already asked you to cease from these, and it is not fair that I would have to reiterate that a second time (!) It is tautological and mildly insulting. No, I don't little about any of these things – this is the point though, you should expect the reader to be unfamilliar with it, too (that's the point of an encyclopedia). I have not read Lefkowitz (my accoutn of her is based on book reviews, etc. from reputable sources), I am not familliar with any of the scholars cited above, but it is important that we understand how their theories are generally viewed by academia as a whole, again, regadless what we oursleves think of academia.
El_C 22:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I wish to recapsulate much of what I said above eversince I've been made aware of some of the problematic components this article exhibits. One issue that I find reoccures and needs to be better addressed systemically, is that the reader is often faced with claims made by Afrocentric scholars, but these are not consistently enough offset by what a consensus of (if such exists, if not we qualify that) and how critical scholars respond to these. We already established that Afrocentric theories are, in that sense, 'disputed,' so we do need to know how each specific claim —not each-and-every one necessarily, but as a general rule— is countered (or if a claim isn't countered, we qualify it as such; again, as a rule, we can allow for exceptions), otherwise our claim for NPOV becomes tenuous. I am confident that by following these steps we can arrive at an article that is accepted by all parties as NPOV. Thanks. El_C 11:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The argument against presenting both sides, both views of Afrocentrism is simply bull. They are competing concepts, and each deserves to be heard. I insist on balance in this piece! The pro and con is reinstated. deeceevoice 11:58, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In some regards, yes. Funny. I don't recall anyone calling (Scandinavian) Thor Hyerdahl "afrocentric" when in the 1970s (after Kon Tiki) he sailed the Ra I and Ra II from Egypt to the New World to and wrote about it. I don't recall anyone calling (white) New Zealand archaeologist, linguist and Harvard historian Barry Fell "afrocentric" when he published Saga America in 1979. Or Dr. Andrzej Wiercinski of the University of Warsaw "afrocentrist" when his 1972 study of Olmec skeletal remains revealed distinctly Africanoid characteristics. (Wanna read it yourself? http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/content.html ; wanna see an Olmec head? http://www.mesoweb.com/features/jpl/01.html )
Oh, my bad! "Afrocentric" -- that title applies only to black folks with the effrontery to challenge white/Eurocentric scholarship, doesn't it?!! Ivan van Sertima's just some delusional half-wit -- never mind his many honors and his recognition by UNESCO (mentioned in the article and edited out simply because Wareware wrote of his claims that Africans actually could have sailed to the New World before Columbus). You see, only crazed, white-race-hating, revisionist black folks trying to compensate, to find a "therapeutic" remedy for feelings of inherent inferiority can be afrocentric. No credible white historian could possibly believe such claptrap! Could they? Oh, of course not! (Downright pathetic.) deeceevoice 15:37, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I intend to remove the section of "radical Afrocentrism" entirely. I think passing reference can be made to it in the pro and con section. Afrocentrist historical theory has credibility -- which is why it has been debated and continues to be debated. It cannot be merely debunked outright. Forty years ago, conventional wisdom had it that the ancient Egyptians were white. When I raised the issue of the blackness of ancient Egyptians with my fourth-grade teacher in the late 1950's I was told I was incorrect. Two years later, the Aswan Dam was built and much of Nubia flooded. But the Temple of Thebes was sawed into pieces, dismantled and then reassembled. I recall in sixth-grade social studies class seeing full-color spreads in "Jr. Scholastic" of huge stone renderings of clearly black African pharaohs seated before the temple. I had been vindicated. (I never brought up the matter with my fourth-grade teacher, who was still at the school -- but he must have been mortified.) :-p
Now it is common for history projects developed by the mainstream media, such as The History Channel and Discovery to readily acknowledge the black Africanness of ancient dynastic Egypt. Forensic reconstruction of royal Egyptian mummies has borne out the black African ethnicity of ancient dynastic Egypt again and again. The wigs, architectural and monumental artifacts bear this out. So, things change. But not quickly enough. People are still abysmally ignorant, still straitjacketed into the old lies and half-truths. In the face of this continued ignorance it is far too easy for individuals to find extreme proponents of one idea or another and then use them as strawmen to paint the entire Afrocentric paradigm as somehow crackpot. Every discipline has its extremists, its eccentrics, even its fools. But this is what Dr. Molefi Asante of Temple University has to say about scholarly Afrocentrist thought (from his scathing review of Lefkowitz's Not Out of Africa):
Professor Lefkowitz has three main axes to grind in her book. The first is that a student told her that she believed Socrates was black. The second is that the Greek gods came from Africa which she attributes to Martin Bernal, the author of Black Athena, and to Cheikh Anta Diop, the author of The African Origin of Civilization. The third is that freemasonry is the source of George James' claim in his book Stolen Legacy that the Greeks got many of their major ideas from the Egyptians
The main point made by Afrocentrists is that Greece owes a substantial debt to Egypt and that Egypt was anterior to Greece and should be considered a major contributor to our current knowledge. I think I can say without a doubt that Afrocentrists do not spend time arguing that either Socrates or Cleopatra were black. I have never seen these ideas written by an Afrocentrist nor have I heard them discussed in any Afrocentric intellectual forums. Professor Lefkowitz provides us with a hearsay incident which she probably reports accurately. It is not an Afrocentric argument....
Professor Lefkowitz makes a statement on page 1 of her book that "In American universities today not everyone knows what extreme Afrocentists are doing in their classrooms. Or even if they do know, they choose not to ask questions." We are off to a bad start. Who are these extreme Afrocentrists? She does not provide us with one example of something that an extreme Afrocentrist is teaching in a classroom. Not one. But already the reader is inclined to believe that something exists where nothing exists. No matter how passionate, assertion is not evidence. What Afrocentrists do teach is that you cannot begin the discussion of world history with the Greeks. Creating clouds of suspicion about scholarly colleagues in order to support a racial mythology developed over the past centuries to accompany European enslavement of Africans, imperialism, and exploitation will not dissipate the fact of Greece's debt to Africa.
<What are the substantial arguments advance by Afrocentrists, not the hearsay comments of a student or some rhetorical repartee between public debaters? What Afrocentrists articulate (see Asante, Kemet, Afrocentricity and Knowledge. Trenton: Africa World Press, 1990; Theophile Obenga, A Lost Tradition: African Philosophy in World History, Philadelphia: Source, 1995) is that the Greeks were students of the Egyptians. Readers should see the works of Yosef Ben-Jochannon and George G. M. James for themselves rather than rely on the misinterpretations and distortions of others.
Near the end of his essay, Asante states very clearly (not block indented; it's too much trouble, but word for word): ---
"On these facts we [Afrocentrist scholars] stand:
"Among Greek historians and others who wrote about what the Greeks learned from Egypt are Homer, Herodotus, Iamblicus, Aetius, Diodorous Siculus, Diogenes Laertius, Plutarch, and Plato. Who were some of the Greek students of Africans, according to the ancient records? They were Plato, Solon, Lycurgus, Democritus, Anaxamander, Anaxagoras, Herodotus, Homer, Thales, Pythagoras, Eudoxus, and Isocrates and many others. Some of these students even wrote of their studies in Egypt as well."
Those wishing to read the entire essay may do so by clicking the link provided in the article. deeceevoice 18:55, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I changed the organization of the article, including removing "radical Afrocentrism" altogether and trying to incorporate that into criticism/rebuttal sections toward the end of the article. I also added a section on specific areas of disagreement in the historical record between Afrocentrists and traditional historians. I'm sure you all will find things that need to be corrected or reverted, but I think most of what I did is sound.
I also tried to get rid of what seemed to be to a "hot" tone in much of the article, some of it needlessly denigrating Afrocentrists and some of it needlessly denigrating those scholars who have disagreed with Afrocentric scholarship. No matter how hot-under-the-collar some participants in the historical debate may get, and no matter what sinister motives they may attribute to those with whom they disagree, we really should just ignore the overwrought emotions that some of the participants may have and concentrate on figuring out what the scholarly consensus is. Babajobu 20:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Need help in establishing how the critical scholarship tends to view claims made by Afrocentric scholars. Few participants are familliar with this topic, except for one editor who is markedly on the Afrocentric side.
I believe it is a fair enough assessment that all parties can agree to. Again, I have no strong opinion either way, I am simply unfamilliar with the subject, but it should be evident, I think, that this issue especially is key one, and that it remains outstanding.
El_C 22:36, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)I still haven't really read the section that treats Songhay, Mali, etc. (I guess because it still really galls me that subject matter I studied routinely 30 years ago is still largely ignored.) But, frankly, I don't see why it's included. This is not, after all, an article on African history. It seems to me, though important in an overall sense, superfluous to this discussion -- at lesat in such detail. Further, it needs to be cleaned up. One of the first things I notice is a subject-verb disagreement. deeceevoice
[c]entered or focused on Africa or African peoples, especially in relation to historical or cultural influence
, period. And the section I authored is very much in tune with that historically broader meaning of the term. And it is phrased in far less propagandist terms than much of the remaining article. Furthermore, if you see grammatical errors whilst skimming, why don't you correct them. I may have erred in skimming, too, in this article, but I still did not call to attention the grammatical errors I encountered, I just cleaned it. Lastly, we will see what editors end up deciding is superfleous. What an irony it is that more recent contributions by Africans are discarded in the name of one branch of Afrocentrism to highlight more ancient history. It truly blows my mind. Please don't skim this comment.
El_C 09:48, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)Because there's no point in reworking something that's poorly worded if I don't think it should be included in the first place.
Second, it seems to me the section on specific criticisms of Afrocentrism simply restates in a wordier manner the last paragraph (if I recall correectly) of the section on criticism -- which it seems to me should be nenamed to reflect the fact that it presents the views of Afrocentrists and their supporters, as well as their detractors. deeceevoice
My earlier edits were an attempt to impartially and reasonably intelligent state what Afrocentrism is and to characterize the viewpoint of its proponents without the constant sniping and some downright silly assertions of some of the earlier versions and then let the rest of the article deal with the criticisms of it. As it was, there WAS no sensible definition of the term -- what with all that vague, amorphous nonsense about "addressing the concerns" of this and that. The definition of it was damning in and of itself, because it placed the paradigm in a kind of emotional/subjective context right off the bat -- which was/is completely unacceptable. deeceevoice 11:17, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Finally (at least for purposes of this post:-p), the statement is made that "radical afrocentrists charge racism" or something of the sort. That is funny. Reputable historians (indeed, anyone pretty much with any common sense) of all ethnicities, across specialties widely acknowledge the role of racism in the Eurocentric skewing of history. That's certainly not a criticism that has been levelled by only "radical afrocentrists," or afrocentrists, or blacks, or "minorities." It's an accepted fact. Hell, the racism is evident in the writings of historians in statements made, judgments reached, in the selectivity and veracity of information presented. The very fact that European "scholars" looked at the black, monumental (literally) evidence of Nubia, Memphis, Karnak and then deliberately chose to portray Egyptian civilization as white or, at its darkest, some sort of Eurasian-Semitic mix is nothing but racism. Brit Basil Davidson scoffed disdainfully at European notions that Timbuktu had been built by some "wandering tribe" of Europeans, when there was absolutely no evidence of it -- merely the racist assumption that black Africans were too inherently backward and utterly incapable of doing so. I mean these m.f.'s actually wrote that kind of crap in their treatises! And then there's the fact that for centuries, world history courses (including the one I took when in school) began with Greece and Rome -- when the Egyptian imprint on Greco-Roman history is indelible (try as racist scholars might to expunge it). Eurocentric history is riddled with such blatant, purposeful omissions, obfuscations and outright lies. deeceevoice
And there is a general consensus that traditional, Western historicism was blatantly racist. To write in a manner that implies only Afrocentrists have a problem with racist accounts of history -- as though they have some axe to grind about a problem that no one else sees is simply downright disingenuous. deeceevoice 11:17, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
And the hilarious, amazingly absurd thing is that someone in this discussion feels somehow compelled to insert some thoroughly silly comment about how they weren't "bad people"! *chuckling* (Only a white guy!) WTF? (They were nice people, and their criticis are "overwrought." ROTFLMBAO.) deeceevoice
But, frankly, who gives a damn, anyway? It is quite clear to any serious student of history that many of them simply -- and knowingly -- twisted "history" in the service of a white supremacist weltanschauung. You cannot tell us that those Europeans who looked upon the faces of King Menes and Tutankamun and Queen Tiye (nappy afro and all), who saw the wooly, braided, afro and dreadlocked wigs of Egyptian royalty; their pronounced, forward-slanting profiles; their full lips and broad cheekbones; their BLACK countenances, saw "Eurasian Semites." 1 deeceevoice
But that is what they "recorded." Gee, (*thinking hard*) I don't know if they were "bad people" or not. And I couldn't give a flying f***. It is of absolutely no import. After all, they're long dead and long ago rotted to dust -- and they're certainly not coming to my place for a tête-a-tête; it ain't like we're gonna have tea. But what I do know is that they were a bunch of racist, lying bastards. And that's the point. deeceevoice 05:46, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Very well covered(!?)
With a great measure of irony: it is –not– very well covered time/space-wise in this encylopedia, actually. Much, much less so than European issues, for example (a 'Eurocentrism' which I am astonished Deeceevoice overlooks so lightly). Still, I have no problem with deleting it (just to prove that I am not 'attached' to it, as Deeceevoice suggests), but I will not concede my more fundamental point in this regard (that this should not be an ancient history-specific article). So I am deleting it. If Deeceevoice feel it has merit, s/he can reinstate it, and make whatever modifications to it s/he sees fit.
El_C 13:07, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)Added an external link to a fascinating abstract at the National Library of Medicine. Was surprised to see Afrocentricity discussed in a peer-reviewed medical journal! Babajobu 15:16, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Deeceevoice, I implore you to take a chill pill. I haven't been around Wikipedia very long, and its protocol is just as unnatural to me as it also still seems to be to you. I'm contrary and argumentative by nature, and never happier than when casting aspersions at the motivation and character of people who disagree with me. But unfortunately for both of us that is not how encyclopedias are made. If you keep up the dinner-table ranting and mocking of your collaborators on this article, the talkpage will be more fun to read, but the Afrocentrism article will be a piece of crap. So please, in the interests of bringing a knowledge of Afrocentrism to the benighted masses who have so little appreciation of Afrocentric contributions, take that chill pill. Wikipedia:No personal attacks, Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a soapbox, Wikipedia:Ownership of articles, Wikipedia:Assume good faith, Wikipedia:Writers rules of engagement, Wikipedia:Profanity, Wikipedia:Wikiquette, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view Babajobu 11:43, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Is the omission of Ethiopia from the lists of Arican polities at the beginning of this article an oversight? Or are there reasons why this nation & its history is not included as one of the subjects studied? -- llywrch 18:47, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hopefuly the following list of works will get us one step closer towards getting an historiographically balanced article with respects to Afroecentric scholarship; and hopefuly these will also prove useful to address the two opposite concerns — the argument against Afrocentric scholarship's vilification posed by DC, and the argument against its overrepresentation as and/or vs. scholarly consensus, as posed by WW. [I am not familliar with the contents of any of these. List's order is random as per the search querry - sadly, few were linkable at the source]:
El_C 06:40, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
-- "Ancient Egypt’s Role in European History"
A link of possible interest: http://www.trinicenter.com/kwame/20010615c.htm
Note that Prof. Nantambu is a history professor at Kent State U. -- not some "radical" crackpot publishing vanity tracts using Publish-It in his basement. deeceevoice 10:36, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
And to say that is to say what? You asked for evidence of support for Afrocentric views among scholars. Presumably, the list of scholars and academicians provided in the article was insufficient. So, as I come across support for such views in mainstream academia (this is not a concerted/focused endeavor), I'm inserting that info in the discussion. I mention "radical," because this article -- unfortunately -- has lapsed back into the same vague language about "radical" Afrocentrism. (I have deleted references, when I saw them, to "black supremacy" and may do so again w/regard to the "radical" business.) Since this article discounts "radical" Afrocentrism outright without even defining it in any acceptable manner, I have no idea what "qualifies" someone to comment on, presumably, mainstream garden-variety Afrocentrism. I mention Nantambu's credentials because, presumably, the man has some credibility; he's on the faculty of a fairly mainstream U.S. university with a strong reputation -- which, to my way of thinking, means he's not some crackpot "radical" Afrocentrist. If, however, you would like to define the precepts of "radical Afrocentrism" in mainstream academia so as to provide some guidance to us regarding who does or doesn't have sufficient credibility to support or debunk the Afrocentric approach to the study of history, have at it. deeceevoice 05:59, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why is the bibliography in a smaller font than the rest of the piece? (Am I suddenly in need of bifocals?) Is this Wiki style? deeceevoice 06:00, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Come on. Serious question. The bifocals thing was facetious, of course; I can read it fine. But why is the print a different size? IS it Wiki style? I haven't noticed it elsewhere. If not, it should be changed. deeceevoice 08:16, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Cool. This explanation was at least helpful. I've got no problem with it. In light of the other articles I've seen on Wiki, it just looked weird. deeceevoice 13:52, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Areas of study by Afrocentrists
Afrocentric history traces and emphasizes important contributions of blacks, beginning with the high civilizations of Africa, particularly Egypt and Kush. It also focuses on black, or Tamil, southern India before the Persian incursions, as well as on the black African participation in the Moorish domination of the Iberian peninsula during the Middle Ages— and, among others, on the sizable empires of Ghana, Mali, and Songhai.
The introductory definition mentions "black contributions." Listing these specific areas of interest, I think, gives the wrong impression; it is too limiting. There are Afrocentric scholars (in terms of the lens through which they interpret history) who focus on black contributions throughout history and across the globe -- and in the modern era, as well. I think it's best to simply leave this out. If there is a desire to mention these areas of focus (and I can see that it could be useful to do so), it should be included in the article in another fashion -- one that won't give the false impression that these are the only areas of study, or even the primary, areas of study/expertise of Afrocentric historians. That is simply not the case. deeceevoice 08:24, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There are ways to cover this topic without collapsing into Deeceevoice's compulsive, Tourette's-ish need to pile on descriptions of omnipresent white racism (prejudicial evil racist white supremacist bigotry paradigms, and so forth), and also to avoid the sort of scoffing condescension of some of the rest of the article ("contempt" and "dismissiveness" toward a "therapeutic" ideology). The Encarta Africana article on Afrocentricity is written by Molefi Kete Asante and I think he provides an excellent descriptive account that people from most perspectives could agree upon. I think we should use that as a sort of guide. If you guys don't have access to it, I'll provide an excerpt here that I think is "fair use." This is the "Origins and Orientations" section of the article. Have a read. Babajobu 15:25, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
II ORIGINS AND ORIENTATIONS
"Afrocentricity is an intellectual perspective deriving its name from the centrality of African people and phenomena in the interpretation of data. Maulana Karenga, a major figure in the Afrocentric Movement, says, “It is a quality of thought that is rooted in the cultural image and human interest of African people.” The Afrocentric school was founded by Molefi Kete Asante in the late 20th century with the launching of the book, Afrocentricity, in which theory and practice were merged as necessary elements in a rise to consciousness. Among the early influences were Kariamu Welsh, Abu Abarry, C.T. Keto, Linda James Myers, J. A. Sofola, and others. Afrocentricity examined some of the same issues that confronted a group calling themselves the Black Psychologists, who argued along lines established by Bobby Wright, Amos Wilson, Na’im Akbar, Kobi Kambon, Wade Nobles, Patricia Newton, and several others. African American scholars trained in political science and sociology, such as Leonard Jeffries, Tony Martin, Vivian Gordon, Kwame Nantambu, Barbara Wheeler, James Turner, and Charshee McIntyre, were greatly influenced by the works of Yosef Ben-Jochannon and John Henrik Clarke and had already begun the process of seeking a non-European way to conceptualize the African experience prior to the development of Afrocentric theory.
"On the other hand, Afrocentricity finds its inspirational source in the Kawaida philosophy’s long-standing concern that the cultural crisis is a defining characteristic of 20th century African reality in the diaspora just as the nationality crisis is the principal issue on the African continent. (Developed by Karenga, professor and chair of the Department of Black Studies at California State University, Long Beach, Kawaida is defined briefly as “an ongoing synthesis of the best of African thought and practice in constant exchange with the world.”) Afrocentricity sought to address these crises by repositioning the African person and African reality from the margins of European thought, attitude, and doctrines to a centered, therefore positively located, place within the realm of science and culture. Afrocentricity finds its grounding in the intellectual and activist precursors who first suggested culture as a critical corrective to a displaced agency among Africans. Recognizing that Africans in the diaspora had been deliberately deculturalized and made to accept the conqueror’s codes of conduct and modes of behavior, the Afrocentrist discovered that the interpretative and theoretical grounds had also been moved. Thus, synthesizing the best of Alexander Crummel, Martin Robison Delany, Edward Wilmot Blyden, Marcus Garvey, Paul Robeson, Anna Julia Cooper, Ida B. Wells-Barnett, Larry Neal, Carter G. Woodson, Willie Abraham, Frantz Fanon, Malcolm X, Cheikh Anta Diop, and W. E. B. Du Bois in his later writings, Afrocentricity projects an innovation in criticism and interpretation. It is therefore in some sense a paradigm, a framework, and a dynamic. However, it is not a worldview and should not be confused with Africanity, which is essentially the way African people, any African people, live according to the customs, traditions, and mores of their society. One can be born in Africa, follow African styles and modes of living, and practice an African religion and not be Afrocentric. To be Afrocentric one has to have a self-conscious awareness of the need for centering. Thus, those individuals who live in Africa and recognize the decentering of their minds because of European colonization may self-consciously choose to be demonstratively in tune with their own agency. If so, this becomes a revolutionary act of will that cannot be achieved merely by wearing African clothes or having an African name."
Babajobu 15:25, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think there a POV error underlying this article.
I think the article should stress more clearly that this evaluation of Western scholarship is merely the point of view of Afrocentrism advocates - rather than hinting or stating that it is a fact.
Something like this ought to do it:
Both Afrocentrists and anti-Afrocentrists could agree with the sentence above as being an accurate portrayal of how Afrocentric scholar view Western scholars. "Yep, that's how they see us." & "Yes, that's how they are."
I'd also like to see a bit about Western defenses of this criticism, for example the claim occasionally made that the West is somewhat aware of its own ethnocentrism and has taken pains to compensate for it - indeed, even to seek out and embrace aspects of non-Western cultures. One historion (Toynbee, I think) even claims this quest to find and cherish extra-cultural aspects as the crowning jewel of the Western ethos: the relentless, un-ending quest of Western Civilization to become "better" by seeking "the good".
Also, I'm not sure that the West portrays itself as the origin of all world civilization. The British historian Arnold Toynbee admittedly begins with England, but only as an example of a larger entity he calls "Western Christendom". He finds two dozen other similar units, separated in both space and time, and endeavors to trace how some (not all!) derive from others.
Toynbee traces only a couple of the existent world civilizations to ancient Greece and Rome, by the way. Only Western Christendom and the Eastern Orthodox cultural spheres, if I recalll correctly. The Islamic and Hindu cultural spheres owe nothing to the Hellenistic sphere; nor do the one or two East Asian cultural spheres.
Ironically, Toynbee views ancient Egypt as having no predecessors or successors. I wonder how current Afrocentric thought reacts to that. Do today's afrocentrists believe that ancient Egpyt was the orgion of all civilization, or even had a major impact on any of the four or five civilizations in existence at the close of the 20th century? -- Uncle Ed (talk) 20:10, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
Intro paragraph includes this:
I don't know what (a) "posits Greco-Roman beginnings" or (b) "posits black Egyptian beginnings" means. It looks like a claim that ALL CIVILIZATION began with (a) ancient Greece & Rome or (b) ancient Egypt. Is that what everyone else thinks this means?
If so, I'm not sure this is a fair representation of the conflict between Afrocentrists and others. But I must confess my ignorance: the only world history book I've ever made a serious attempt at reading was Toynbee's A Study of History, in which he traces Western Civilization (currently centering on Europe and the U.S.) to Greco-Roman beginnings. But apart from Eastern Orthodoxy he does not attribute any other extant civilization to Greece or Rome. In particular, he claims that the Islamic Sphere, the Hindu Sphere and the Far Eastern Sphere developed independently of the Graeco-Roman Empire (or Hellenic Sphere, as he terms it). -- Uncle Ed (talk) 19:04, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
They are incredibly potent, Ed, and they take me, so to speak, from the heights of Paradiso to the depths of Inferno, and everything in between (read: much mood swinging). But I should be back to being boring and annoying (as opposed to borring, annoying, and unpredictable) in the very near future. I am developing an empathy to drug addicts, though! Thanks for your concern, I appreciate it. :)
I want to touch on your thoughts regarding American civilizations briefly. While Central and South American civilizations, much like the African ones (excluding Egypt), arose thousands of years after the four (Afro-?) Asiatic regions (including Egypt), what is noteworthy, I think, is that like (and arguably, even more so than) each of the four (Afro-?) Asiatic ones, these arose independently of one another. But what my note above failed to convey (due to a shortcoming by yours truly), was that I mentioned these four (in relation to the word begin) strictly in terms of periodization. Otherwise, it is, indeed, quite valid to add these (American and non-Egyptian, African ones) to 'the list,' since, again, not only did they merely 'begin' (as everything does, without exception) but theirs was an 'independent beginning,' too. So I place a certain weight on these qualifications; i.e. what began more-or-less 'first' viz. what began later, but nonetheless, (also) outside of one another. Hope that makes sense; brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio! ;) El_C 05:56, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This article has been made infinitely better since the last time I dropped in. Well done. You better throw up a wall and dig a moat, Deeceevoice must be raising an army. Babajobu 11:32, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The significant changes made on 4.24.05 came from my hand (I registered after I made the changes). I deleted sections, and significantly altered the language. While the earlier version was well written, it was clear that the authors had not read any of the central texts that deal with Afrocentrism as a concept. The focus on the race of the Ancient Egyptians for example is not one discussed within scholarly circles. Still important though is the argument that Egypt was an African civilization--a stance that should be straightforward at this point. Whenever I could I tried to emphasize what the Ancients themselves noted, as well as the lack of significant research that shows a non-African origin for Egyptian culture. I felt too much emphasis was given to Lefkowitz' work, because Lefkowitz to my knowledge has not even published significant works in her own field much less that of African history. Furthermore it does not appear that Lefkowitz has read any of the actual books that Afrocentrists have written. This is a significant problem--no one for example cares what Cleopatra looks like except for Lefkowitz. For a much better critique, Dean Robinson's work on Black Nationalism is solid...because Dr. Robinson at least READ the works.
Toynbee was a white supremacist. Here I am not necessarily making a normative judgment, but rather describing a fact. To state that Africa was a backwards continent that created no civilizations of worth is empirically false. If this is "mainstream scholarship" then we're in trouble.
Given that the Ancients considered their own civilization to originate in Nubia, it makes a great deal of sense that the Ancients would sometimes depict themselves as Nubians. But, as Egypt was a multi-cultural civilization that found itself invaded by Southwest Asians it also makes sense that sometimes they would depict themselves as looking different from Nubians. So I made changes to reflect this.
The biggest problem now is the lack of a proper transition to the Rastafari section.