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the word "chevere" is listed here in the language catagory as coming from the african/spanish patois/creole. i thought there was a similar word in french? also i think it's used in places where there is no history of black people or slavery (mexico, chile i think). i dunno. if someone knows french or more spanish, they can confirm/deny whether this word belongs here. -- 66.108.113.147 02:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Please do not dilute this excellent article by adding POV's and baised information.
First. In regard to the Mandingo merchant theory. This article is about the proven immigration of African slaves to Puerto Rico based on facts. The mandingo merchant theory has never been proven to apply to Puerto Rico. The artifacts and skeletons found at the Tibes Ceremonial Center in Ponce have not been traced to Africa. This is not to say that the theory may be true in Mexico or other aereas, but then again some scholars believe that the Asians and the Vikings were the first to settle the New World. Until proven beyond a doubt, history cannot be rewritten.
Second. This article is "not" about the history of the African Cheif Tarik and the indepth conquest of Spain by the Moors. This article contains a breif explaination as to why the Spanish were more tolerant towards blacks then their European conterparts. Whoever is interested in the indepth history of the invasion of Spain may look up Spanish History, Moors or Cheif Tarik.
Third. Phrases such as "Great Chief", "viciously raped and sexually abused" and "(rape was rampant)" are considered POV by Wikipedia standards and unencyclopedic. Such additions maybe considered vandalism.
An article is written on sourced and proven facts. Unless a reliable source, such as a an official document and not someome else's webpage, be provided such additions as the Mandingo Merchant Theory are unacceptable. Tony the Marine 16:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually we pronounce it like a "j" (similar to an American "h"). We don't "swallow" it. It's just not true. If no one objects within a few days I am going edit that part. -- Pasajero 22:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
The title is clearly weasel worded. "Immigration" without qualifiers clearly has a benign tone. Since I do not see extensive discussion here, I would like to know why Slavery in Puerto Rico - a more correct title - redirects here. Thanks!-- Cerejota 12:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Cerejota, I respect your contributions in Wikipedia, but don't accuse me of "Weasel wording". It is clear that the vast majority of the African population that arrived in the island was as a result of the slave trade, which is an immigration of people as defined. However, not all those of African descent were slaves. Many African free-man arrived with the Conquistadors and many more immigrated from non-Spanish colonies, such as
Jamaica and St. Dominique (
Haiti), to Puerto Rico and provided a population base to support the Puerto Rican garrison and its forts. The article is not only about slavery even though I have covered and that is why "Slavery in Puerto Rico " is redirected to this article. The title is proper, it is about an immigration of people, be it forced or voluntary, be it illegal or legal.
Tony the Marine
18:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Tony, this isn't personal, I didn't even know it was you who did it, but it is about content. My apologies if you thought I was engaging in a personal attack.
I still insist that slavery and the slave trade cannot possibly be buried underneath "immigration". Slavery here is not give due weight in the title, and the title gives the impression of voluntary immigration.
And am sorry, "forced immigration" (the only way "immigration" can fit "slavery") is a classic example of a weasel word.
What about African slave trade and immigration to Puerto Rico? That would address my due weight concerns, while keeping the peripheral but certainly notable and verifiable non-slave trade immigration. Thanks!-- Cerejota 00:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
It is total original research. I am not suggesting we have to source every word we put, but we should be able to find some secondary sources on this that provide words (although I think then the issue is notability - who decides what we can or cannot put?). Mondongo (and possibly mofongo) is a key example, it is a word of old, very old, possibly Visigothic origin. It is as European as it gets, not even Latin. Yet it was listed as an "African" word. Thanks!-- Cerejota 07:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Do not remove a GA tag placed by a nominator. You are not in the GA nor a member of its peer review committee. Such actions may be deemed as vandalism. Another thing, I completely disagree that a well written and sourced article as this be "merged" with a poorely written and "tagged" as unsourced article as Black history in Puerto Rico, therefore as an administrator, I have removed the merged tags and redirected the poorly written one to this one which covers said topics.
I have complied with the reguest of tittle change but, rescent events led mte to believe that thiere is a personal agenda against this particular article. Instead of critizing, make positive contributions to it so that the same will make GA status. Tony the Marine 21:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
O.K., let us all smoke the "Boricua" peacepipe like the good Puerto Ricans that we are who only want what is the best for our island. I may have misunderstood some of the propositions here, so my apologies. I like the proposed solution by "Dragon", so how about this: Cerejota, merge into African slave trade and immigration to Puerto Rico what ever verifiable information that Black history in Puerto Rico has, but that this article lacks and after that is done I will delete "Black history of Puerto Rico" and rename this page as such. Sounds like a plan? Tony the Marine 00:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Or is it to early? Thanks!-- Cerejota 03:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I see you've put this article up as a GAC - I'm not going to review it fully, seeing as I don't think I've reached that stage of Wikidom yet. However, there's no way it'll be passed with its references in the state they're currently in. Use {{citeweb}} templates at least to get them cleaned up. Seegoon 00:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
The article is extremely close to GA status but needs a bit of work before getting there. I am listing the issues that need to be sorted out before the article is passed.
1) The lead is a bit too short, and does not really summarize the entire article properly. As is stands there is only one sentence that discusses black history after the abolition of slavery. Considering roughly a third of the article is dedicated to this, the lead needs to reflect this. You should add a few more sentences here, in particular about the Spanish-American War, which isn't mentioned at all.
2) There are some issues with images. Bomba.gif does not have a fair-use rationale, and I doubt that it would qualify as fair-use even with one as the artist isn't mentioned in the article. You should probably find another image. preferably one from an artist discussed in the article
3) I am unclear what this means: "Capt. Miguel Henriquez (c.1680-17??), Puerto Rican (17??-18??), " What does the 'Puerto Rican' part mean?
4) Be consistent in the way things are written. Either use numbers for centuries (e.g 19th century) or letters (nineteenth century). At the moment, there are both in the article. One style should be used for the entire article. Done used numbers instead of letters Tony the Marine 00:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
5) There is no reference for the "Currently" section.
6) Reference 22 has no retrieved date and does not work. You will have to find a new reference here.
7) Reference 32 has no retrieved date.
I think that once all these issues are resolved, the article can be passed. You can ask me questions on my talk page. Zeus1234 16:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
While I don't particularly care for their music, their lifestyle habits, etc, they are extremely popular in and out of Puerto Rico, are certainly among the 10 best-known Puerto Rican entertainers today and should be in the list. The best example is today's Agencia EFE article highlighting Calderón's upcoming visit to Madrid, at < http://www.endi.com/noticia/musica/flash!/el_abayarde_contraataca/261138> Pr4ever 19:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
the word "chevere" is listed here in the language catagory as coming from the african/spanish patois/creole. i thought there was a similar word in french? also i think it's used in places where there is no history of black people or slavery (mexico, chile i think). i dunno. if someone knows french or more spanish, they can confirm/deny whether this word belongs here. -- 66.108.113.147 02:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Please do not dilute this excellent article by adding POV's and baised information.
First. In regard to the Mandingo merchant theory. This article is about the proven immigration of African slaves to Puerto Rico based on facts. The mandingo merchant theory has never been proven to apply to Puerto Rico. The artifacts and skeletons found at the Tibes Ceremonial Center in Ponce have not been traced to Africa. This is not to say that the theory may be true in Mexico or other aereas, but then again some scholars believe that the Asians and the Vikings were the first to settle the New World. Until proven beyond a doubt, history cannot be rewritten.
Second. This article is "not" about the history of the African Cheif Tarik and the indepth conquest of Spain by the Moors. This article contains a breif explaination as to why the Spanish were more tolerant towards blacks then their European conterparts. Whoever is interested in the indepth history of the invasion of Spain may look up Spanish History, Moors or Cheif Tarik.
Third. Phrases such as "Great Chief", "viciously raped and sexually abused" and "(rape was rampant)" are considered POV by Wikipedia standards and unencyclopedic. Such additions maybe considered vandalism.
An article is written on sourced and proven facts. Unless a reliable source, such as a an official document and not someome else's webpage, be provided such additions as the Mandingo Merchant Theory are unacceptable. Tony the Marine 16:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually we pronounce it like a "j" (similar to an American "h"). We don't "swallow" it. It's just not true. If no one objects within a few days I am going edit that part. -- Pasajero 22:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
The title is clearly weasel worded. "Immigration" without qualifiers clearly has a benign tone. Since I do not see extensive discussion here, I would like to know why Slavery in Puerto Rico - a more correct title - redirects here. Thanks!-- Cerejota 12:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Cerejota, I respect your contributions in Wikipedia, but don't accuse me of "Weasel wording". It is clear that the vast majority of the African population that arrived in the island was as a result of the slave trade, which is an immigration of people as defined. However, not all those of African descent were slaves. Many African free-man arrived with the Conquistadors and many more immigrated from non-Spanish colonies, such as
Jamaica and St. Dominique (
Haiti), to Puerto Rico and provided a population base to support the Puerto Rican garrison and its forts. The article is not only about slavery even though I have covered and that is why "Slavery in Puerto Rico " is redirected to this article. The title is proper, it is about an immigration of people, be it forced or voluntary, be it illegal or legal.
Tony the Marine
18:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Tony, this isn't personal, I didn't even know it was you who did it, but it is about content. My apologies if you thought I was engaging in a personal attack.
I still insist that slavery and the slave trade cannot possibly be buried underneath "immigration". Slavery here is not give due weight in the title, and the title gives the impression of voluntary immigration.
And am sorry, "forced immigration" (the only way "immigration" can fit "slavery") is a classic example of a weasel word.
What about African slave trade and immigration to Puerto Rico? That would address my due weight concerns, while keeping the peripheral but certainly notable and verifiable non-slave trade immigration. Thanks!-- Cerejota 00:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
It is total original research. I am not suggesting we have to source every word we put, but we should be able to find some secondary sources on this that provide words (although I think then the issue is notability - who decides what we can or cannot put?). Mondongo (and possibly mofongo) is a key example, it is a word of old, very old, possibly Visigothic origin. It is as European as it gets, not even Latin. Yet it was listed as an "African" word. Thanks!-- Cerejota 07:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Do not remove a GA tag placed by a nominator. You are not in the GA nor a member of its peer review committee. Such actions may be deemed as vandalism. Another thing, I completely disagree that a well written and sourced article as this be "merged" with a poorely written and "tagged" as unsourced article as Black history in Puerto Rico, therefore as an administrator, I have removed the merged tags and redirected the poorly written one to this one which covers said topics.
I have complied with the reguest of tittle change but, rescent events led mte to believe that thiere is a personal agenda against this particular article. Instead of critizing, make positive contributions to it so that the same will make GA status. Tony the Marine 21:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
O.K., let us all smoke the "Boricua" peacepipe like the good Puerto Ricans that we are who only want what is the best for our island. I may have misunderstood some of the propositions here, so my apologies. I like the proposed solution by "Dragon", so how about this: Cerejota, merge into African slave trade and immigration to Puerto Rico what ever verifiable information that Black history in Puerto Rico has, but that this article lacks and after that is done I will delete "Black history of Puerto Rico" and rename this page as such. Sounds like a plan? Tony the Marine 00:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Or is it to early? Thanks!-- Cerejota 03:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I see you've put this article up as a GAC - I'm not going to review it fully, seeing as I don't think I've reached that stage of Wikidom yet. However, there's no way it'll be passed with its references in the state they're currently in. Use {{citeweb}} templates at least to get them cleaned up. Seegoon 00:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
The article is extremely close to GA status but needs a bit of work before getting there. I am listing the issues that need to be sorted out before the article is passed.
1) The lead is a bit too short, and does not really summarize the entire article properly. As is stands there is only one sentence that discusses black history after the abolition of slavery. Considering roughly a third of the article is dedicated to this, the lead needs to reflect this. You should add a few more sentences here, in particular about the Spanish-American War, which isn't mentioned at all.
2) There are some issues with images. Bomba.gif does not have a fair-use rationale, and I doubt that it would qualify as fair-use even with one as the artist isn't mentioned in the article. You should probably find another image. preferably one from an artist discussed in the article
3) I am unclear what this means: "Capt. Miguel Henriquez (c.1680-17??), Puerto Rican (17??-18??), " What does the 'Puerto Rican' part mean?
4) Be consistent in the way things are written. Either use numbers for centuries (e.g 19th century) or letters (nineteenth century). At the moment, there are both in the article. One style should be used for the entire article. Done used numbers instead of letters Tony the Marine 00:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
5) There is no reference for the "Currently" section.
6) Reference 22 has no retrieved date and does not work. You will have to find a new reference here.
7) Reference 32 has no retrieved date.
I think that once all these issues are resolved, the article can be passed. You can ask me questions on my talk page. Zeus1234 16:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
While I don't particularly care for their music, their lifestyle habits, etc, they are extremely popular in and out of Puerto Rico, are certainly among the 10 best-known Puerto Rican entertainers today and should be in the list. The best example is today's Agencia EFE article highlighting Calderón's upcoming visit to Madrid, at < http://www.endi.com/noticia/musica/flash!/el_abayarde_contraataca/261138> Pr4ever 19:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)