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I don't really understand this discussion, or rather: the need for this discussion. It would seem like someone (Ron7) wants to push an ideological POV to separate Afrikaners from Dutch people as much as at all possible, for a narrative painting them as an oppressed people of the latter. Then there's a lot of talk of how much of the settlers were actually "Frisian", "Flemish", "(Low) German", "Danish" and whatnot, as to prove they were not "really" Dutch after all? This is wholly nonsensical to me, and to anyone who understands the historical composition of the Dutch people or any people in general. Who is to be called "Dutch" anyways? Those living within Dutch borders? Those with a Dutch nationality or even passport, which is a recent convention? Frisians are then Dutch too according to those definitions. Or you could say just 1600s "South Holland Dutch" is "originally Dutch", but many of those are descended from Flemish refugees after the Spanish took hold of the Southern Netherlands. Many North-Hollanders are in some sense naturalized Frisians, who had colonized the area earlier. Are Low Germans not Dutch in some sense? Many people in the North and East of the Netherlands traditionally speak dialects that are Low Saxon just like those across the border. Actually the word "Dutch" and "Deutsch" are cognates meaning "(of the) common people". Do we really need to go into these complexities when just giving a general impression in the introduction? Is there any reason for not saying "predominantly Dutch" other than essentially ideological ones? I mean, as soon as the Huguenots, (Low) Germans or any other immigrants adopted Dutch language and general culture, then surely they are to be regarded as Dutch in a socio-cultural, when not genetic, sense? Just like the Flemish and other refugees shortly after the creation of the Dutch Republic? Fedor ( talk) 11:54, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Getting back to the original meat of this topic: as Ron mentioned, I did do some research on specific genetic roots and found the largest percentage of Afrikaans surnames among the Voortrekkers originated from what is today part of northern "Germany" - I dislike using the term in this context, since there wasn't a Germany back then - in a region called Schleswig. Which incidentally, flew a flag very similar to that of the Netherlands. Ron says many of them were Frisians, too, but on that I have no comment: it was three hundred years ago; I can't confirm their specific ethnic background, just the geographic region they came from.
It therefore isn't too much of a stretch to say most Boer family names are "German". That being said, if you consider all Afrikaans surnames, an overwhelming majority of these had at least one Dutch progenitor, usually from the South Holland region where Amsterdam is. Ron and I agreed this was most likely because the greater Cape Dutch segment outnumbered the more specific Boer community from which the Voortrekkers came. Back in the days of the Great Trek, white Afrikaans people were far less monolithic in outlook and political interest than they are today, hence the distinction between Cape Dutch and Boer - see Cecil Rhodes and the Cape Afrikaners for details on how the so-called "Cape Dutch" developed a nationalist movement of their own entirely separate from that of say, the trekkers'.
It all depends on how one wants to look at it: are Boers and Cape Dutch separate ethnic groups? Ron7 thinks so. If that's the case, you're trying to separate the muddled genealogy of what you perceive to be two related but distinct communities. On the flip side if you want to just flat out ask me, "of the three million odd Afrikaans-speaking white South Africans, where did the biggest percentage of male and female progenitors come from?" I'd have to answer "Holland". A separate question might be, "how many Afrikaans-speaking white South Africans have some German/Huguenot ancestry?" I'd have to answer "probably 95%". Because intermarriage. Even if you break them down into Cape Dutch and Boer, both of those groups have a certain degree of Dutch, Huguenot, "German", and other European ancestry. They all intermarried, had children, and forgot about their differences a long time ago - part of the reason being there were only 77 Huguenot and 65 other European women at the Cape between 1657 and 1806, as compared to the female Hollanders who numbered over 300 (see Moritz's Die Deutschen am Kap). First rule of thumb when you're studying modern South African genealogy: everybody's a little bit of something.
Now, I imagine Dutch genealogy looks the same way, and the modern person in the Netherlands is as Amphioxys has pointed out, less monolithic than they were three hundred years ago much like South Africans. If we are debating whether the early whites at the Cape can be considered Dutch because of their cultural and linguistic ties as a group to Holland, I'd say they were certainly Dutch subjects and identified accordingly as "Dutch" by others, including the British and the slaves. Whether they self-identified as Dutch or not probably depends on the semantics: the Boers who lived on the frontier certainly hated VOC rule, were fiercely republican, and had a more independent identity than the Cape burghers.
But as I've mentioned this is all historical semantics, and I have a feeling it belongs on the page about Afrikaner identity politics as opposed to Afrikaners themselves. I'd suggest we take this discussion there in the future. -- Katangais (talk) 04:25, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. As this will almost certainly result in the removal of the "genealogy" section from this article, I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. -- Katangais (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Those of you long term editors of this article are aware that we've broached this topic on more than one occasion in the past -- namely, the erroneous description of white Afrikaans people first and foremost as "a Germanic ethnic group in Southern Africa" rather than a true "Southern African ethnic group". In the past, the former was favoured by Germanphiles who liked deleting all references to Afrikaners as Africans in the article and trying to place an undue emphasis on the fact that most of their ancestors came from somewhere in Northern Europe three hundred years ago.
The fact remains that Afrikaners came to be in Southern Africa and frankly I'm sick and tired of having to explain this every year to editors that want to place an undue emphasis on a strictly European identity and/or ancestry before describing them as Africans. Is it no longer acceptable to simply describe Afrikaners as Africans? We've already compiled a very detailed section on their genealogy below if anybody wants to determine how "Germanic" the pedigree is.
This happens so consistently that I going to propose adding a template to the top of the page specifically requesting that editors refrain from adding terms such as "European", "Eurocentric", or "Germanic" to that first sentence of the lead. It's time something was done to block what I perceive as over-racialist fringe editing. -- Katangais (talk) 19:34, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
The simple fact is that that Afrikaners are a Germanic tribe. They are a tribe that exists in Africa, but that does not make them any less Germanic. If one looks at the wiki pages for other groups in South Africa, the Xhosa people are referred to as "a Bantu ethnic group in Southern Africa", the Zulu are referred to as "a Bantu ethnic group of Southern Africa", the Sotho are referred to as "a Bantu ethnic group whose ancestors have lived in southern Africa." Not a single on of those pages describe them as a southern African ethnic group, they all refer to them as a Bantu ethnic group in Southern Africa. I believe that it would be wrong to move away from what appears to be a standard and workable way of describing ethnic groups Taking what appears to be the standard, the lead should contain the phrase that "Afrikaners are a Germanic peoples ethnic group in Southern Africa" or "Afrikaners are a Germanic peoples ethnic group of Southern Africa" -- DSBennie ( talk) 07:03, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
@ Roger (Dodger67), You are factually incorrect, as Germanic can also refer to Germanic peoples who are all ethnic groups who have one of the Germanic languages as their mother tongue. There are multiple Germanic peoples, and referring to the term Afrikaner as referring to a specific Germanic people in the entomology section is indeed correct, and does not preclude the existence of other Germanic peoples in southern Africa. Removing that sentence from the entomology section makes no sense, especially since the main differentiation between the white ethnic groups within southern Africa is based on language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DSBennie ( talk • contribs) 19:33, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
For those that are interested, you can find three relevant discussions on this topic at Talk:Afrikaner/Archive 3. The previous talk page discussion established several precedents:
The case was decided on RfC and the conclusions reached resulted in the current lead being retained.
Thanks, -- Katangais (talk) 17:37, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
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The infobox on the current article is missing figures for the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom. Many South Africans emigrated to Australia and New Zealand, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to suggest that they also emigrated to other countries in the Anglosphere. 2601:8C:4102:1210:651A:285A:DAB:5AD5 ( talk) 10:07, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
A recent event organised by Angus Buchan had over a million South Africans physically attend a day of prayer in Bloemfontein. [1] The Majority of the attendees were Afrikaners negating the statement that only 30% of Afrikaners are religious. If estimations around church attendance are made the NG Kerk needs to be quoted, or the national census. Anything else might not add to the readers understanding of the topic and dilutes this article with opinions rather than facts, it would be better to not speculate around Afrikaner church attendance at all, and if it must, then the sources need to be able to stand up for themselves Dean
There have been two separate revisions now which added an "1867" subsection to the article section dealing with population history. The new revisions cite the ethnic breakdown of Afrikaners as estimated by Heese as an accurate representation of what the Afrikaner population looked like in 1867. This is problematic for several reasons, namely:
I have reverted the two disputed revisions which claim an Afrikaner population in 1867 of "34% Dutch, 33% German, etc" for these reasons. Please discuss these concerns here before re-adding the section on 1867 population figures.
Thanks, -- Katangais (talk) 07:21, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
A discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject South Africa#Should South Africa articles use "continental system" numbers? might impact this article.
I mention it here because this article has a lot of numbers. Batternut ( talk) 09:55, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
To impose or not to impose gap-separation (1234567.8 in place of 1,234,567.8) upon existing articles is now the question, at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject South Africa#Should existing South Africa articles be changed to use gaps as thousands separators?.
Batternut (
talk) 20:29, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
According to a genetic study in February 2019 Hollfelder et al. 2019, Patterns of African and Asian admixture in the Afrikaner population of South Africa almost all Afrikaners had admixture from non-Europeans:
Abstract : "The Afrikaner population of South Africa are the descendants of European colonists who started to colonize the Cape of Good Hope in the 1600's. In the early days of the colony, mixed unions between European males and non-European females gave rise to admixed children who later became incorporated into either the Afrikaner or the "Coloured" populations of South Africa. Ancestry, social class, culture, sex ratio and geographic structure affected admixture patterns and caused different ancestry and admixture patterns in Afrikaner and Coloured populations. The Afrikaner population has a predominant European composition, whereas the Coloured population has more diverse ancestries. Genealogical records estimated the non-European contributions into the Afrikaners to 5.5%-7.2%. To investigate the genetic ancestry of the Afrikaner population today (11-13 generations after initial colonization) we genotyped ~5 million genome-wide markers in 77 Afrikaner individuals and compared their genotypes to populations across the world to determine parental source populations and admixture proportions. We found that the majority of Afrikaner ancestry (average 95.3%) came from European populations (specifically northwestern European populations), but that almost all Afrikaners had admixture from non-Europeans. The non-European admixture originated mostly from people who were brought to South Africa as slaves and, to a lesser extent, from local Khoe-San groups. Furthermore, despite a potentially small founding population, there is no sign of a recent bottleneck in the Afrikaner compared to other European populations. Admixture among diverse groups during early colonial times might have counterbalanced the effects of a founding population with a small census size."
"...The total amount of non-European ancestry, at the K=6 level, is 4.8% (SD 3.8%) of which 2.1% are African ancestry and 2.7% Asian/Native American ancestry. The individual with most non-European admixture had 24.9% non-European admixture and only a single Afrikaner individual (out of 77) had no evidence of non-European admixture (Table S1). Among the 77 Afrikaners investigated, 6.5% had above 10% non-European admixture, 27.3% between 5 and 10%, 59.7% between 1 and 5% and 6.5% below 1%..... More of the non-European admixture fraction appeared to have come from people who were brought to the Cape as slaves (3.4%) during colonial times than from local Khoe-San people (1.3%) "
Can we put a new section in the article about Genetics?
80.236.18.232 ( talk) 19:32, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
Am I way out of line here?
Afrikaners are a mixed race - South African Indigenous Khoi mixed with European immigrants. In the 16th century sea travel was extremley hazardous and way biased in favor of male travelers. The arriving Settlers were thus drawn to the populations of local women and soon mixed with them.
I therefore dispute your open paragraphs depicting the Afrikaners (although it has recently been the common interpretation)as European immigrants. The gutteral sounds in the language are the vestiges of the Khoi language. This analysis would then make the Afrikaners as a much larger ethnic group - closer to 13% of the population.
Any thoughts?
PhilipDC — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philipdc ( talk • contribs) 13:40, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm currently going through and lang tagging throughout the article (it's so long...) which basically requires me to read the entire article SO I've noticed a few things that are repeated a lot.
There's also a couple of things missing:
I'm not really the best person to chase down these things - my Afrikaans isn't good enough for statistical language, and I'm really more of a drive-by editor. But they're pretty important holes, and ideally should be fixed. That being said, each separate section is well written, they're just not necessarily 100% integrated into each other. If you want me to see a responses, please ping me. -- Xurizuri ( talk) 10:26, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
There's a lot of good stuff in this article, but I just want to raise a few issues here which I think need to be addressed:
(I hope that someone finds these comments useful and may consider doing a review and update of the article - not meant as criticism, but aiming at improvement!) Laterthanyouthink ( talk) 02:31, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
How can you not talk about racism when it comes to Afrikaners in South Africa? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Supermodelsonya (
talk •
contribs) 18:22, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
I propose merging Boers into Afrikaners. Boers are now called Afrikaners. The Boers article already mentions this in the WP:LEAD. The articles should be merged because the topics completely WP:OVERLAP. Desertambition ( talk) 23:12, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
Afrikaners, formerly known as Boers
Boer, (Dutch: “husbandman,” or “farmer”), a South African of Dutch, German, or Huguenot descent, especially one of the early settlers of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State. Today, descendants of the Boers are commonly referred to as Afrikaners.
The Afrikaners – as the descendants of the Boer settlers eventually became known – constructed their identity in opposition to, on the one hand, black identities, and on the other to Anglo whiteness..
Afrikaners, previously called Boers, are descendants of mainly Dutch immigrants settled in South Africa in the 17th century.
...for the sake of narrative simplicity I have sacrificed the contemporary word "Afrikaner" and have relied on its outdated synonym, "Boer".
Each proffered name indicates a subject position that is opening up, possibilities that can be (re)inscribed: Afrikaner, Afrikaan, Afrikaanses, SuidAfrikaan, Boer, boer, Wit Suid-Afrikaners, even Angloboere/Pomfrikaners (for those who have emigrated to England). Importantly, each name also fixes a different alignment of the intersectionalities that make up the totality of Afrikaner cultural/social/political/economic gear.
When black South Africans in the 1980s [reinfected] the word Boer to signify something distasteful, they succeeded in making Afrikaners accept that meaning to the extent that the majority now disown the name. In spite of the fact that Boer, in accordance with their power, was a name proudly chosen by themselves to signal their connection with the land, the word had become infected with black distaste which culminated in the Pan African Congress’ s chant of `Kill the farmer, kill the Boer’ so that Afrikaners have abandoned what they now perceive to be a racist term.
The non-standard, urban, spoken variety of Afrikaans previously associated with coloureds or poor-whites is used in much of the new writing, especially by women,2 which deflects the language from the old, discredited Boer identity. Narratives from the late 1980s onwards, whether in standard or non standard dialects, are crucially concerned with a laundered Afrikaner ethnicity, its whiteness effaced through an association with blackness. This phenomenon can now be seen to be institutionalised at least at the University of Cape Town where the Department of Afrikaans, previously linked to Nederlands, is to be merged with African languages.
Relevant historical 2A03:2880:31FF:77:0:0:FACE:B00C ( talk) 15:16, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:52, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
The flag which has been added to the top of the page should be removed. There is no evidence that there's a broad consensus among the white Afrikaans population of adopting a single flag to represent their community. Consequently, I think it's misleading to place it at the top of page and make the (unsourced) and rather bold implication that it represents the Afrikaner population. Katangais (talk) 16:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
This page needs a significant section that notes the unique cuisine of the Afrikaner including Koeksisters, Vetkoek, and various others... Dean — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deanerasmus2006 ( talk • contribs) 10:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
So the census figures for Australia and New Zealand provide separate categories for those who identify as "Afrikaner", and whites who report being speakers of Afrikaans. Wikipedia should cite the figure used for self-identification, with a footnote explaining that the number of Afrikaans speakers in these countries is much higher. Afrikaans doesn't necessarily equate to Afrikaner, since it's not clear how many Afrikaans speakers overseas also identify as Afrikaner.
Let's bear in mind that - especially overseas - there may be many children who are raised with Afrikaans as a household language, if one of their parents was an Afrikaans speaker. That does not mean these people identify as Afrikaners. Also note that many white South Africans - regardless of their ethnic background - are bilingual and were raised speaking both English and Afrikaans, especially prior to 1994. Katangais (talk) 23:16, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
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I don't really understand this discussion, or rather: the need for this discussion. It would seem like someone (Ron7) wants to push an ideological POV to separate Afrikaners from Dutch people as much as at all possible, for a narrative painting them as an oppressed people of the latter. Then there's a lot of talk of how much of the settlers were actually "Frisian", "Flemish", "(Low) German", "Danish" and whatnot, as to prove they were not "really" Dutch after all? This is wholly nonsensical to me, and to anyone who understands the historical composition of the Dutch people or any people in general. Who is to be called "Dutch" anyways? Those living within Dutch borders? Those with a Dutch nationality or even passport, which is a recent convention? Frisians are then Dutch too according to those definitions. Or you could say just 1600s "South Holland Dutch" is "originally Dutch", but many of those are descended from Flemish refugees after the Spanish took hold of the Southern Netherlands. Many North-Hollanders are in some sense naturalized Frisians, who had colonized the area earlier. Are Low Germans not Dutch in some sense? Many people in the North and East of the Netherlands traditionally speak dialects that are Low Saxon just like those across the border. Actually the word "Dutch" and "Deutsch" are cognates meaning "(of the) common people". Do we really need to go into these complexities when just giving a general impression in the introduction? Is there any reason for not saying "predominantly Dutch" other than essentially ideological ones? I mean, as soon as the Huguenots, (Low) Germans or any other immigrants adopted Dutch language and general culture, then surely they are to be regarded as Dutch in a socio-cultural, when not genetic, sense? Just like the Flemish and other refugees shortly after the creation of the Dutch Republic? Fedor ( talk) 11:54, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Getting back to the original meat of this topic: as Ron mentioned, I did do some research on specific genetic roots and found the largest percentage of Afrikaans surnames among the Voortrekkers originated from what is today part of northern "Germany" - I dislike using the term in this context, since there wasn't a Germany back then - in a region called Schleswig. Which incidentally, flew a flag very similar to that of the Netherlands. Ron says many of them were Frisians, too, but on that I have no comment: it was three hundred years ago; I can't confirm their specific ethnic background, just the geographic region they came from.
It therefore isn't too much of a stretch to say most Boer family names are "German". That being said, if you consider all Afrikaans surnames, an overwhelming majority of these had at least one Dutch progenitor, usually from the South Holland region where Amsterdam is. Ron and I agreed this was most likely because the greater Cape Dutch segment outnumbered the more specific Boer community from which the Voortrekkers came. Back in the days of the Great Trek, white Afrikaans people were far less monolithic in outlook and political interest than they are today, hence the distinction between Cape Dutch and Boer - see Cecil Rhodes and the Cape Afrikaners for details on how the so-called "Cape Dutch" developed a nationalist movement of their own entirely separate from that of say, the trekkers'.
It all depends on how one wants to look at it: are Boers and Cape Dutch separate ethnic groups? Ron7 thinks so. If that's the case, you're trying to separate the muddled genealogy of what you perceive to be two related but distinct communities. On the flip side if you want to just flat out ask me, "of the three million odd Afrikaans-speaking white South Africans, where did the biggest percentage of male and female progenitors come from?" I'd have to answer "Holland". A separate question might be, "how many Afrikaans-speaking white South Africans have some German/Huguenot ancestry?" I'd have to answer "probably 95%". Because intermarriage. Even if you break them down into Cape Dutch and Boer, both of those groups have a certain degree of Dutch, Huguenot, "German", and other European ancestry. They all intermarried, had children, and forgot about their differences a long time ago - part of the reason being there were only 77 Huguenot and 65 other European women at the Cape between 1657 and 1806, as compared to the female Hollanders who numbered over 300 (see Moritz's Die Deutschen am Kap). First rule of thumb when you're studying modern South African genealogy: everybody's a little bit of something.
Now, I imagine Dutch genealogy looks the same way, and the modern person in the Netherlands is as Amphioxys has pointed out, less monolithic than they were three hundred years ago much like South Africans. If we are debating whether the early whites at the Cape can be considered Dutch because of their cultural and linguistic ties as a group to Holland, I'd say they were certainly Dutch subjects and identified accordingly as "Dutch" by others, including the British and the slaves. Whether they self-identified as Dutch or not probably depends on the semantics: the Boers who lived on the frontier certainly hated VOC rule, were fiercely republican, and had a more independent identity than the Cape burghers.
But as I've mentioned this is all historical semantics, and I have a feeling it belongs on the page about Afrikaner identity politics as opposed to Afrikaners themselves. I'd suggest we take this discussion there in the future. -- Katangais (talk) 04:25, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. As this will almost certainly result in the removal of the "genealogy" section from this article, I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. -- Katangais (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Those of you long term editors of this article are aware that we've broached this topic on more than one occasion in the past -- namely, the erroneous description of white Afrikaans people first and foremost as "a Germanic ethnic group in Southern Africa" rather than a true "Southern African ethnic group". In the past, the former was favoured by Germanphiles who liked deleting all references to Afrikaners as Africans in the article and trying to place an undue emphasis on the fact that most of their ancestors came from somewhere in Northern Europe three hundred years ago.
The fact remains that Afrikaners came to be in Southern Africa and frankly I'm sick and tired of having to explain this every year to editors that want to place an undue emphasis on a strictly European identity and/or ancestry before describing them as Africans. Is it no longer acceptable to simply describe Afrikaners as Africans? We've already compiled a very detailed section on their genealogy below if anybody wants to determine how "Germanic" the pedigree is.
This happens so consistently that I going to propose adding a template to the top of the page specifically requesting that editors refrain from adding terms such as "European", "Eurocentric", or "Germanic" to that first sentence of the lead. It's time something was done to block what I perceive as over-racialist fringe editing. -- Katangais (talk) 19:34, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
The simple fact is that that Afrikaners are a Germanic tribe. They are a tribe that exists in Africa, but that does not make them any less Germanic. If one looks at the wiki pages for other groups in South Africa, the Xhosa people are referred to as "a Bantu ethnic group in Southern Africa", the Zulu are referred to as "a Bantu ethnic group of Southern Africa", the Sotho are referred to as "a Bantu ethnic group whose ancestors have lived in southern Africa." Not a single on of those pages describe them as a southern African ethnic group, they all refer to them as a Bantu ethnic group in Southern Africa. I believe that it would be wrong to move away from what appears to be a standard and workable way of describing ethnic groups Taking what appears to be the standard, the lead should contain the phrase that "Afrikaners are a Germanic peoples ethnic group in Southern Africa" or "Afrikaners are a Germanic peoples ethnic group of Southern Africa" -- DSBennie ( talk) 07:03, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
@ Roger (Dodger67), You are factually incorrect, as Germanic can also refer to Germanic peoples who are all ethnic groups who have one of the Germanic languages as their mother tongue. There are multiple Germanic peoples, and referring to the term Afrikaner as referring to a specific Germanic people in the entomology section is indeed correct, and does not preclude the existence of other Germanic peoples in southern Africa. Removing that sentence from the entomology section makes no sense, especially since the main differentiation between the white ethnic groups within southern Africa is based on language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DSBennie ( talk • contribs) 19:33, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
For those that are interested, you can find three relevant discussions on this topic at Talk:Afrikaner/Archive 3. The previous talk page discussion established several precedents:
The case was decided on RfC and the conclusions reached resulted in the current lead being retained.
Thanks, -- Katangais (talk) 17:37, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
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The infobox on the current article is missing figures for the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom. Many South Africans emigrated to Australia and New Zealand, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to suggest that they also emigrated to other countries in the Anglosphere. 2601:8C:4102:1210:651A:285A:DAB:5AD5 ( talk) 10:07, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
A recent event organised by Angus Buchan had over a million South Africans physically attend a day of prayer in Bloemfontein. [1] The Majority of the attendees were Afrikaners negating the statement that only 30% of Afrikaners are religious. If estimations around church attendance are made the NG Kerk needs to be quoted, or the national census. Anything else might not add to the readers understanding of the topic and dilutes this article with opinions rather than facts, it would be better to not speculate around Afrikaner church attendance at all, and if it must, then the sources need to be able to stand up for themselves Dean
There have been two separate revisions now which added an "1867" subsection to the article section dealing with population history. The new revisions cite the ethnic breakdown of Afrikaners as estimated by Heese as an accurate representation of what the Afrikaner population looked like in 1867. This is problematic for several reasons, namely:
I have reverted the two disputed revisions which claim an Afrikaner population in 1867 of "34% Dutch, 33% German, etc" for these reasons. Please discuss these concerns here before re-adding the section on 1867 population figures.
Thanks, -- Katangais (talk) 07:21, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
A discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject South Africa#Should South Africa articles use "continental system" numbers? might impact this article.
I mention it here because this article has a lot of numbers. Batternut ( talk) 09:55, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
To impose or not to impose gap-separation (1234567.8 in place of 1,234,567.8) upon existing articles is now the question, at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject South Africa#Should existing South Africa articles be changed to use gaps as thousands separators?.
Batternut (
talk) 20:29, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
According to a genetic study in February 2019 Hollfelder et al. 2019, Patterns of African and Asian admixture in the Afrikaner population of South Africa almost all Afrikaners had admixture from non-Europeans:
Abstract : "The Afrikaner population of South Africa are the descendants of European colonists who started to colonize the Cape of Good Hope in the 1600's. In the early days of the colony, mixed unions between European males and non-European females gave rise to admixed children who later became incorporated into either the Afrikaner or the "Coloured" populations of South Africa. Ancestry, social class, culture, sex ratio and geographic structure affected admixture patterns and caused different ancestry and admixture patterns in Afrikaner and Coloured populations. The Afrikaner population has a predominant European composition, whereas the Coloured population has more diverse ancestries. Genealogical records estimated the non-European contributions into the Afrikaners to 5.5%-7.2%. To investigate the genetic ancestry of the Afrikaner population today (11-13 generations after initial colonization) we genotyped ~5 million genome-wide markers in 77 Afrikaner individuals and compared their genotypes to populations across the world to determine parental source populations and admixture proportions. We found that the majority of Afrikaner ancestry (average 95.3%) came from European populations (specifically northwestern European populations), but that almost all Afrikaners had admixture from non-Europeans. The non-European admixture originated mostly from people who were brought to South Africa as slaves and, to a lesser extent, from local Khoe-San groups. Furthermore, despite a potentially small founding population, there is no sign of a recent bottleneck in the Afrikaner compared to other European populations. Admixture among diverse groups during early colonial times might have counterbalanced the effects of a founding population with a small census size."
"...The total amount of non-European ancestry, at the K=6 level, is 4.8% (SD 3.8%) of which 2.1% are African ancestry and 2.7% Asian/Native American ancestry. The individual with most non-European admixture had 24.9% non-European admixture and only a single Afrikaner individual (out of 77) had no evidence of non-European admixture (Table S1). Among the 77 Afrikaners investigated, 6.5% had above 10% non-European admixture, 27.3% between 5 and 10%, 59.7% between 1 and 5% and 6.5% below 1%..... More of the non-European admixture fraction appeared to have come from people who were brought to the Cape as slaves (3.4%) during colonial times than from local Khoe-San people (1.3%) "
Can we put a new section in the article about Genetics?
80.236.18.232 ( talk) 19:32, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
Am I way out of line here?
Afrikaners are a mixed race - South African Indigenous Khoi mixed with European immigrants. In the 16th century sea travel was extremley hazardous and way biased in favor of male travelers. The arriving Settlers were thus drawn to the populations of local women and soon mixed with them.
I therefore dispute your open paragraphs depicting the Afrikaners (although it has recently been the common interpretation)as European immigrants. The gutteral sounds in the language are the vestiges of the Khoi language. This analysis would then make the Afrikaners as a much larger ethnic group - closer to 13% of the population.
Any thoughts?
PhilipDC — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philipdc ( talk • contribs) 13:40, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm currently going through and lang tagging throughout the article (it's so long...) which basically requires me to read the entire article SO I've noticed a few things that are repeated a lot.
There's also a couple of things missing:
I'm not really the best person to chase down these things - my Afrikaans isn't good enough for statistical language, and I'm really more of a drive-by editor. But they're pretty important holes, and ideally should be fixed. That being said, each separate section is well written, they're just not necessarily 100% integrated into each other. If you want me to see a responses, please ping me. -- Xurizuri ( talk) 10:26, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
There's a lot of good stuff in this article, but I just want to raise a few issues here which I think need to be addressed:
(I hope that someone finds these comments useful and may consider doing a review and update of the article - not meant as criticism, but aiming at improvement!) Laterthanyouthink ( talk) 02:31, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
How can you not talk about racism when it comes to Afrikaners in South Africa? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Supermodelsonya (
talk •
contribs) 18:22, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
I propose merging Boers into Afrikaners. Boers are now called Afrikaners. The Boers article already mentions this in the WP:LEAD. The articles should be merged because the topics completely WP:OVERLAP. Desertambition ( talk) 23:12, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
Afrikaners, formerly known as Boers
Boer, (Dutch: “husbandman,” or “farmer”), a South African of Dutch, German, or Huguenot descent, especially one of the early settlers of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State. Today, descendants of the Boers are commonly referred to as Afrikaners.
The Afrikaners – as the descendants of the Boer settlers eventually became known – constructed their identity in opposition to, on the one hand, black identities, and on the other to Anglo whiteness..
Afrikaners, previously called Boers, are descendants of mainly Dutch immigrants settled in South Africa in the 17th century.
...for the sake of narrative simplicity I have sacrificed the contemporary word "Afrikaner" and have relied on its outdated synonym, "Boer".
Each proffered name indicates a subject position that is opening up, possibilities that can be (re)inscribed: Afrikaner, Afrikaan, Afrikaanses, SuidAfrikaan, Boer, boer, Wit Suid-Afrikaners, even Angloboere/Pomfrikaners (for those who have emigrated to England). Importantly, each name also fixes a different alignment of the intersectionalities that make up the totality of Afrikaner cultural/social/political/economic gear.
When black South Africans in the 1980s [reinfected] the word Boer to signify something distasteful, they succeeded in making Afrikaners accept that meaning to the extent that the majority now disown the name. In spite of the fact that Boer, in accordance with their power, was a name proudly chosen by themselves to signal their connection with the land, the word had become infected with black distaste which culminated in the Pan African Congress’ s chant of `Kill the farmer, kill the Boer’ so that Afrikaners have abandoned what they now perceive to be a racist term.
The non-standard, urban, spoken variety of Afrikaans previously associated with coloureds or poor-whites is used in much of the new writing, especially by women,2 which deflects the language from the old, discredited Boer identity. Narratives from the late 1980s onwards, whether in standard or non standard dialects, are crucially concerned with a laundered Afrikaner ethnicity, its whiteness effaced through an association with blackness. This phenomenon can now be seen to be institutionalised at least at the University of Cape Town where the Department of Afrikaans, previously linked to Nederlands, is to be merged with African languages.
Relevant historical 2A03:2880:31FF:77:0:0:FACE:B00C ( talk) 15:16, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:52, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
The flag which has been added to the top of the page should be removed. There is no evidence that there's a broad consensus among the white Afrikaans population of adopting a single flag to represent their community. Consequently, I think it's misleading to place it at the top of page and make the (unsourced) and rather bold implication that it represents the Afrikaner population. Katangais (talk) 16:12, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
This page needs a significant section that notes the unique cuisine of the Afrikaner including Koeksisters, Vetkoek, and various others... Dean — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deanerasmus2006 ( talk • contribs) 10:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
So the census figures for Australia and New Zealand provide separate categories for those who identify as "Afrikaner", and whites who report being speakers of Afrikaans. Wikipedia should cite the figure used for self-identification, with a footnote explaining that the number of Afrikaans speakers in these countries is much higher. Afrikaans doesn't necessarily equate to Afrikaner, since it's not clear how many Afrikaans speakers overseas also identify as Afrikaner.
Let's bear in mind that - especially overseas - there may be many children who are raised with Afrikaans as a household language, if one of their parents was an Afrikaans speaker. That does not mean these people identify as Afrikaners. Also note that many white South Africans - regardless of their ethnic background - are bilingual and were raised speaking both English and Afrikaans, especially prior to 1994. Katangais (talk) 23:16, 2 May 2023 (UTC)