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![]() | Old Archive 3 (1 September 2004 - 31 December 2004) |
I've browsed the discussion and can actually see both points of view. Please forgive me for not defending or denigrating either. My suggestion is that those involved in the discussion look at other encyclopedic entries under the term African American.
This is outrageous. I was checking that a link I used in another article went to a pertinent page; all I can say is that I will not be linking here in a hurry.
Although there is some good writing and interesting information here, the general feel is that the article is cluttered, difficult to follow and full of tangents and incorrect statements. As for the comments on this discussion page--I'm flabbergasted. I can't even follow who's saying what--or when. I certainly will not engage in debate with anyone who is not willing to 'sign' their statements.
I would suggest that, at the very least, this entry be drastically shortened and some of the concepts moved to their own articles. At least then people could fight away about specific subjects.
Quill 10:04, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I don't know if its too late to be posting this but the topic looked interesting and being Black myself i couldn't resist.
Is it possible for race to be so entrenched in a society like America which has stressed the differences between Blacks and Whites so far that race in this country at least is equivalent to an ethnic group? Cultural Blacks are very different from Whites and history shows this. Whites see this country from one perspective and the experience of Blacks in this country has showed their view of this country and the world.
I personally believe that Black, Black-American, Afro-American, African-American, or even New Afrikan are all acceptable regardless of political correctness. These are far more up to dates and not nearly as deterogatory as Nigger, Nergo, Colored, and Anglo-African.
Black-Americans are different from other members of the African diaspora because we share a Native-American, European, as well as African hertitage and that separates us. We are our own ethnic group though it is an ethnic group without a name it is one nonetheless. African-American is generic and the afrocentricity of the term makes me think its an attempt to drown out everything else and only acknowledge the African aspects.
-Eurytus
Thanks, Eurytus, for your turnaround of this piece. I was too lazy to do it comprehensively and made primarily reactionary comments to the crap written previously. I eventually started on the historical stuff, but you've done an admirable job of writing an overview. It's got some ways to go and a bit of correction, but this is head and shoulders above the previous incarnation -- a ridiculous discussion of the term "African American" instead of the people so named. Will return with more info/edits/comments. Again, thanks/peace. :-) deeceevoice 10:25, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Census provides lots of different figures for the Black population. Blacks not counting Hispanic-origin Blacks (35.6 million), Blacks counting Hispanic-origin Blacks (37.1 million), Blacks in alone or in combination with some other race (38.7 million) -- All numbers are as of July 2003. I revised the article to include the 37.1 million figure which includes Hispanic Blacks, although it probably makes most sense to use the 35.6 million figure . BSveen 06:47, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)
We should write about the fact that the American constitution set African-Americans as 3/5 of a person when counting representation. Bogdan | Talk 15:46, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I had two good reasons for the edit:
1. There was a Wikipedia warning about the size--in excess of 31 KB, recommended condensing and move.
2. The article was becoming cumbersome again. Notes of preachiness and bias were creeping in. In my experience, Wikipedians tend to throw up their hands and walk away when the editing task seems to large. This way, people with interest or expertise in a specific area can give energy to a specific topic. This article should have a good definition and description of African Americans (which it does) and passing reference to other topics.
Quill 22:53, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If we hear nothing from you, we will assume you have reconsidered your comment and now think otherwise. What you are really saying is that if I do not drop everything I'm doing and respond to Deeceevoice within 24 hours, you will feel satisfied that I had nothing of substance to contribute.
I'm perfectly willing to discuss this or any issue, I'm just not willing to enter into a Wikipedia dogfight with any person who doesn't listen. I brought this up several weeks ago--no response. I gave people time to comment; there were none.
You're right; various incarnations of the previous article were a mess; so were the arguments on this page.
As a matter of fact, the problems with the entry do still exist, and I will be working on them - particularly on maintaining a NPOV - as I hope many Wikipedists or Wikipedians will. When I see statements that are in my view unsubstantiated, ill-thought out or biased, I will change them to the best of my ability. In the meantime, you're certainly at liberty to work on what interests you, which I have noticed you have begun doing.
I will say again for the benefit of those who haven't seen my comments elsewhere; I do not see why the main entry at African American should try to be all things to all people. Why on earth a main entry contain a discussion of chitterlings and what was traditionally called The Black Church, which should probably rate its own entry? You cannot compare jazz. That's a very narrow subject and of course it should be examined at length in its own article. If you want to make a true Wikipedia comparison, consider parallel entries at Irish American and Italian American. Short and to the point. Actually, too short, I think, but I don't wish to digress. The Italian American entry doesn't pause and have a discussion of pizza, gelato and spaghetti, or the Roman Catholic church. (It does have a list of "Famous Italian Americans" that needs moving. This tendency to put lists within articles is a Wikepedia pet peeve, but that's another issue.)
These main articles on American ethinicities are points of departure for many other articles and subcategories, and I think that makes sense. I think you're right in that the main articles should provide an overview, but not in-depth treatment. What happens then is repetition at several entries. It's already happening: one of the sections, now moved to African American history discusses the Civil Rights Movement, which has its own entry. Of course I believe that there should be a reference to the Civil Rights Movement in a discussion of African American history, but not two or more in depth discussions at different entries.
These are works-in-progress and none of this is going to be settled in one day.
Quill 20:45, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Quill, who said anything about "within 24 hours"? Certainly not I. And "we" is anyone interested in the article. If you make a claim about a problem, it's reasonable to expect some sort of substance to that claim. If something about the article needs fixing, then it's helpful to know precisely what those problems are. Otherwise, your opinion is useless; you give us absolutely nothing to work with. Asking someone to specify (even a single example would be helpful) what they've stated in only the most general of terms is wrong with a piece is certainly not the same thing as expecting or demanding that the person offering the criticism fix it immediately. If you see something wrong with the article, then tell us. Perhaps others of us will see it also. And those who have the time and inclination can set about correcting/rectifying it. Assuming that because you don't have time to fix the entry it should remain as is -- with, by your account, "bias" and "preachiness" -- until you can get around to it makes no sense -- unless, of course, you believe you're the only one capable of approaching the subject matter with intelligence and fairness. :-p deeceevoice 23:13, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is it necessary to place an awful slur in the introduction to this article. "Nigger" was never an accepted moniker for blacks like negro and colored. Indeed it's negativity is pointed out by the writer, but it's inclusion may be inappropriate. Ramsquire 19:30, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This may be a stupid question, if so, I apologize. But how would I suggest a revert? Ramsquire 22:27, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The way to improve this article is to start from scratch, not simply to revert to confusion.
Where does one start with this mess? Any piece that contains this sort of unsubstantiated claptrap: 'In the last decade, a growing movement has developed, spearheaded mostly by white mothers of African-American children....' cannot be taken seriously.
Quill 03:07, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks to GBleem for restoring a lot of what was useful in the first major revision (deleted by Eurytus) of the old article. Good call. After Quill's decision to break up the article into numerous smaller segments, a lot of that text seems to fit. And, Quill, I'm warming to your decision to chop the article up. I thought what remained of the original article looked (and read) like crap. (And it kind of did.) But with the restoration of some of the other information, hey, it's better. Not perfect, but better. And, more importantly, your edits allow for expanded treatment of some subjects that received merely passing mention in the second major revision of this piece. Another good call. deeceevoice 07:06, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The article as it stands makes it seem as if "mulatto" is no longer in use. I would dispute this. I have heard (in more than one US state) in recent memory, the term being used to describe someone with one "white" parent and one "black" parent. Also, I've never heard anyone assume the "implication" that mulattos are, like mules, sterile, or a product of two different species. This does not seem to be an inherently derogatory term and I haven't heard it used as such. I suggest someone make a change unless I'm way off base here. Comments? -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 01:59, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)
The article states that African Americans have dominant ancestry from West Africa. However, I would imagine that if black Africans from e.g. Kenya or Angola came to America and had children, the children would be considered African American despite the fact that they had no ancestry from West Africa. Am I missing something, or is "African American" actually reserved for descendants of West Africans? - Sekicho 03:14, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
We've had this discussion ad nauseam. See paragraph two of the article and then "A Commonsense Explanation of the Term" in the discussion thread. The rewrite doesn't mention all that, but "African-American" is meant to describe a very specific ethnic group in the U.S. Does that answer your question? Perhaps some of the old verbiage that was expunged from the article explaining this should be reinstated? deeceevoice 08:01, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, the discussion IS a mess. But the subhead is there and the pertinent passages should be easily accessible. If you read the excised section carefully, it does mention that other such groups often are referred to as "African American," but that the term is more an external one. The purpose of this article is to discuss the group of African descendants in the U.S. (not elsewhere, not Canada, not Jamaica, etc.). As I suggested in my response to you, perhaps some of the earlier verbiage regarding other groups should be included -- or revised. I directed you to that section to catch you up on the discussion. Of course, you're more than welcome to make a passing mention of other groups you think should be included and include a redirect to links dealing with those populations. And, yes, African-Americans are a very specific ethnic group, with a specific culture, a specific history, even a specific dialect -- whether you -- an exchange student from Osaka, Japan (lol) -- wish to call us that or not. deeceevoice 14:27, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Do what you will. For someone from Japan to try to tell me who and what my people are is presumptuous at best. And that African Americans aren't an ethnic group within the U.S.? ROFLMBAO. Ignorant presumptuousness -- and with an attitude. So, hey, I reciprocated. (Always more than happy to return a gesture. :-p)
And what you characterize as "dismissive," I see as trying to be helpful. I pointed the contributor to the appropriate section (because he/she clearly hasn't a clue if he/she thinks black folks in the U.S. aren't an ethnic group) and then suggested she could include appropriate language to address her concerns and then links to articles about populations she felt were not being dealt with in this particular article. There's plenty that's already been written and chopped away (by Eurytus) and lots of food for thought in the discussion. It's there if our presumptuous friend wants to use it -- verbatim or as a point of departure. (After all, this is the kind of advice I'm constantly getting from other Wikipedians. Or, oh, my bad! I'm a newbie. Guess those kinds of comments are acceptable coming only from those who've been on wiki for a year or more. Did I forget my place?) :-p ROFLMBAO (again).
Perhaps you'd like to include in this piece similar information about any and all other groups who even remotely possibly could be included in this piece -- so that you then can come behind and divide up the article again. :-p Hey, NPOV the whole freakin' encyclopedia if that's what floats your boat. :-D Have at it!
deeceevoice 22:03, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Just saw this: "That's not to say that you are "wrong"; are you taking my point? For instance, no one would deny you are correct in saying that there is a specific dialect, but it's regional and class-based; not all 'African Americans' speak African American Vernacular English."
WTH? No, AAVE is not exclusively regional. AAVE is spoken and understood in Sookie Bottom, Alabama (a real place), and Dee-troy-it, Michigan; in Compton and Kalamazoo. It's spoken by black folks all over this nation. You think you're schoolin' me on AAVE, like you've got something to tell me about it being class-based? Let me direct you to the sentence I WROTE under AAVE: "AAVE is most commonly spoken exclusively among southern, rural African-Americans and those with working-class roots (emphasis added). Many African-Americans, however, regardless of their socioeconomic status, educational background, or where they may live, use AAVE in informal and intra-ethnic communication."
Time for a reality check, bwoi. Get a grip. deeceevoice 22:12, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Wow. I've restored the above entry. It's amusing. (The previous post was entered and then deleted by Sekicho -- with the notation "Sekicho (never mind... this is in the article anyway)" Gee, Sekicho. First, I'm not the only who wrote this article. There were lots of people who contributed and who debated your issue ad nauseam before you ever showed up. I told you this had already been covered -- and pointed you to the pertinent material. Not only didn't you read the article before your first comment, you apparently didn't bother to read the debate. Since you're so quick to hand out advice, I've got some for you: try reading stuff first before you go ballistic. deeceevoice 22:47, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Oh. And another thing: DON'T YOU SHOUT AT ME. :-p deeceevoice 09:21, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
deecee, I know you absolutely believe that an African American is necessarily of West African ancestry. I'm not contesting that this is one way to define the term. But this is not the only way to define it.
Everyone and their brother is saying that Barack Obama might be the first African American president. But is he West African? No. Does he have a drop of slave blood in him? No. Is he "African American?" According to a LOT of people, yes.
You're imposing your own definition of the word on this article. I am not opposed to your definition. In fact, I am not opposed to using it as the basis for this article. (If we never mention Ethiopians or Zulus in America, I will still be able to sleep at night.)
However, I am very opposed to stating that African American means American of West African ancestry, when that is clearly not what it often means in common use. The article has to start with the broad construction of the word, since it commonly refers to all Americans of sub-Saharan descent, and then focus on the ethnic/cultural meaning of the word, which refers to Americans of slave descent.
Do you see the issue? It's not a question of which definition is "right" or "wrong." It's a question of what "African American" means to people. Clearly, it means different things to different people. I grew up with Jamaicans and Haitians and even Nigerians who considered themselves African American and who were part of the broader African American community. They would define the word differently from how you define it.
Again, I am not debating the validity of your definition. I am simply stating that because it is not the only common definition, it should not be placed at the top of the article and treated as though it is the only common definition. - Sekicho 00:44, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
Is the United States government "ignorant and clueless?" Is every major dictionary editor "ignorant and clueless?" Is every journalist who calls Colin Powell African American "ignorant and clueless?" This is nothing like calling Fujimori el chino: there are lots and lots of reputable people who are using the broader definition.
Also, I didn't delete anything. I moved most of the first two paragraphs to the first subheading ("definition") and expanded on them quite a bit. (They're still there, by the way, so we have a lot of information in the article twice now.) The first section of the article is far too long; the table of contents should be visible when you load the page. - Sekicho 17:27, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
The following was added 31 Aug 2005, long after this discussion was archived to Talk:African American/Archive 3.
Seikico if ur parents and ethnic group come from asia and your born in america what does that make you....?
ASIAN - AMERICAN it dosent matter if ur grandparents were bombed in hiroshima or segregated in detention camps your ancestery is still ASIAN ,it dosent matter if they were chinese immigrants or a chinese emporors theyre ehtnic group is still ASIAN,that is the origin of their ancestory it is asian,now Barak Obama was born in hawaii,but he is not an ethnic hawaiian,his father is from the same africa my ancestors are from,see diagram below:
baracks ancestors<----africa----->my ancestors
now his mother is caucasian and part cherokee many african americans share this same lineage.Not necessarily a direct white parent but the other two major ethnic groups in america white and indian somewhere in their geaneology,this is quite a common phenomenon among the african american community MALCOLM X and MUHAMMED ALI also possess a partially IRISH ancestery they like most african americans of mixed heritage however dont awknowlede their caucasian part for obvious reasons .they simply dont make a federal case out it.
Now pay attention cause this is the impotant part AFRICA IS A CONTINENT,KENYA IS A PART OF THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA it dosent matter if his grandfater had "slave blood" whatever the hell that means?!He is still of african descent.
just like YOU and Bruce Lee are of ASIAN descent even though hes from China and you are Japanese you are both of ASIAN.
simply because u physically move a group of people dosent make them instant americans with no history of anywhere else.Barak Obama is obviously of AFRICAN descent as am I obviously of african descent,just because one group is taken to another country and oppresed and another group is oppresed in their own land dosent make them no longer descendants of that land.
If u need me to explain in simpler terms or need me to draw anymore pictures just let me know ill be happy to oblige :)
oh and one more thing the slave trade was pan-african,they came from all over africa the slaves were simply shipped out of west africa because its closest to the U.S. coastline but most slaves are from the waest africa region. DPJ
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
![]() | Old Archive 3 (1 September 2004 - 31 December 2004) |
I've browsed the discussion and can actually see both points of view. Please forgive me for not defending or denigrating either. My suggestion is that those involved in the discussion look at other encyclopedic entries under the term African American.
This is outrageous. I was checking that a link I used in another article went to a pertinent page; all I can say is that I will not be linking here in a hurry.
Although there is some good writing and interesting information here, the general feel is that the article is cluttered, difficult to follow and full of tangents and incorrect statements. As for the comments on this discussion page--I'm flabbergasted. I can't even follow who's saying what--or when. I certainly will not engage in debate with anyone who is not willing to 'sign' their statements.
I would suggest that, at the very least, this entry be drastically shortened and some of the concepts moved to their own articles. At least then people could fight away about specific subjects.
Quill 10:04, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I don't know if its too late to be posting this but the topic looked interesting and being Black myself i couldn't resist.
Is it possible for race to be so entrenched in a society like America which has stressed the differences between Blacks and Whites so far that race in this country at least is equivalent to an ethnic group? Cultural Blacks are very different from Whites and history shows this. Whites see this country from one perspective and the experience of Blacks in this country has showed their view of this country and the world.
I personally believe that Black, Black-American, Afro-American, African-American, or even New Afrikan are all acceptable regardless of political correctness. These are far more up to dates and not nearly as deterogatory as Nigger, Nergo, Colored, and Anglo-African.
Black-Americans are different from other members of the African diaspora because we share a Native-American, European, as well as African hertitage and that separates us. We are our own ethnic group though it is an ethnic group without a name it is one nonetheless. African-American is generic and the afrocentricity of the term makes me think its an attempt to drown out everything else and only acknowledge the African aspects.
-Eurytus
Thanks, Eurytus, for your turnaround of this piece. I was too lazy to do it comprehensively and made primarily reactionary comments to the crap written previously. I eventually started on the historical stuff, but you've done an admirable job of writing an overview. It's got some ways to go and a bit of correction, but this is head and shoulders above the previous incarnation -- a ridiculous discussion of the term "African American" instead of the people so named. Will return with more info/edits/comments. Again, thanks/peace. :-) deeceevoice 10:25, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Census provides lots of different figures for the Black population. Blacks not counting Hispanic-origin Blacks (35.6 million), Blacks counting Hispanic-origin Blacks (37.1 million), Blacks in alone or in combination with some other race (38.7 million) -- All numbers are as of July 2003. I revised the article to include the 37.1 million figure which includes Hispanic Blacks, although it probably makes most sense to use the 35.6 million figure . BSveen 06:47, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)
We should write about the fact that the American constitution set African-Americans as 3/5 of a person when counting representation. Bogdan | Talk 15:46, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I had two good reasons for the edit:
1. There was a Wikipedia warning about the size--in excess of 31 KB, recommended condensing and move.
2. The article was becoming cumbersome again. Notes of preachiness and bias were creeping in. In my experience, Wikipedians tend to throw up their hands and walk away when the editing task seems to large. This way, people with interest or expertise in a specific area can give energy to a specific topic. This article should have a good definition and description of African Americans (which it does) and passing reference to other topics.
Quill 22:53, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If we hear nothing from you, we will assume you have reconsidered your comment and now think otherwise. What you are really saying is that if I do not drop everything I'm doing and respond to Deeceevoice within 24 hours, you will feel satisfied that I had nothing of substance to contribute.
I'm perfectly willing to discuss this or any issue, I'm just not willing to enter into a Wikipedia dogfight with any person who doesn't listen. I brought this up several weeks ago--no response. I gave people time to comment; there were none.
You're right; various incarnations of the previous article were a mess; so were the arguments on this page.
As a matter of fact, the problems with the entry do still exist, and I will be working on them - particularly on maintaining a NPOV - as I hope many Wikipedists or Wikipedians will. When I see statements that are in my view unsubstantiated, ill-thought out or biased, I will change them to the best of my ability. In the meantime, you're certainly at liberty to work on what interests you, which I have noticed you have begun doing.
I will say again for the benefit of those who haven't seen my comments elsewhere; I do not see why the main entry at African American should try to be all things to all people. Why on earth a main entry contain a discussion of chitterlings and what was traditionally called The Black Church, which should probably rate its own entry? You cannot compare jazz. That's a very narrow subject and of course it should be examined at length in its own article. If you want to make a true Wikipedia comparison, consider parallel entries at Irish American and Italian American. Short and to the point. Actually, too short, I think, but I don't wish to digress. The Italian American entry doesn't pause and have a discussion of pizza, gelato and spaghetti, or the Roman Catholic church. (It does have a list of "Famous Italian Americans" that needs moving. This tendency to put lists within articles is a Wikepedia pet peeve, but that's another issue.)
These main articles on American ethinicities are points of departure for many other articles and subcategories, and I think that makes sense. I think you're right in that the main articles should provide an overview, but not in-depth treatment. What happens then is repetition at several entries. It's already happening: one of the sections, now moved to African American history discusses the Civil Rights Movement, which has its own entry. Of course I believe that there should be a reference to the Civil Rights Movement in a discussion of African American history, but not two or more in depth discussions at different entries.
These are works-in-progress and none of this is going to be settled in one day.
Quill 20:45, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Quill, who said anything about "within 24 hours"? Certainly not I. And "we" is anyone interested in the article. If you make a claim about a problem, it's reasonable to expect some sort of substance to that claim. If something about the article needs fixing, then it's helpful to know precisely what those problems are. Otherwise, your opinion is useless; you give us absolutely nothing to work with. Asking someone to specify (even a single example would be helpful) what they've stated in only the most general of terms is wrong with a piece is certainly not the same thing as expecting or demanding that the person offering the criticism fix it immediately. If you see something wrong with the article, then tell us. Perhaps others of us will see it also. And those who have the time and inclination can set about correcting/rectifying it. Assuming that because you don't have time to fix the entry it should remain as is -- with, by your account, "bias" and "preachiness" -- until you can get around to it makes no sense -- unless, of course, you believe you're the only one capable of approaching the subject matter with intelligence and fairness. :-p deeceevoice 23:13, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is it necessary to place an awful slur in the introduction to this article. "Nigger" was never an accepted moniker for blacks like negro and colored. Indeed it's negativity is pointed out by the writer, but it's inclusion may be inappropriate. Ramsquire 19:30, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This may be a stupid question, if so, I apologize. But how would I suggest a revert? Ramsquire 22:27, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The way to improve this article is to start from scratch, not simply to revert to confusion.
Where does one start with this mess? Any piece that contains this sort of unsubstantiated claptrap: 'In the last decade, a growing movement has developed, spearheaded mostly by white mothers of African-American children....' cannot be taken seriously.
Quill 03:07, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks to GBleem for restoring a lot of what was useful in the first major revision (deleted by Eurytus) of the old article. Good call. After Quill's decision to break up the article into numerous smaller segments, a lot of that text seems to fit. And, Quill, I'm warming to your decision to chop the article up. I thought what remained of the original article looked (and read) like crap. (And it kind of did.) But with the restoration of some of the other information, hey, it's better. Not perfect, but better. And, more importantly, your edits allow for expanded treatment of some subjects that received merely passing mention in the second major revision of this piece. Another good call. deeceevoice 07:06, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The article as it stands makes it seem as if "mulatto" is no longer in use. I would dispute this. I have heard (in more than one US state) in recent memory, the term being used to describe someone with one "white" parent and one "black" parent. Also, I've never heard anyone assume the "implication" that mulattos are, like mules, sterile, or a product of two different species. This does not seem to be an inherently derogatory term and I haven't heard it used as such. I suggest someone make a change unless I'm way off base here. Comments? -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 01:59, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)
The article states that African Americans have dominant ancestry from West Africa. However, I would imagine that if black Africans from e.g. Kenya or Angola came to America and had children, the children would be considered African American despite the fact that they had no ancestry from West Africa. Am I missing something, or is "African American" actually reserved for descendants of West Africans? - Sekicho 03:14, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
We've had this discussion ad nauseam. See paragraph two of the article and then "A Commonsense Explanation of the Term" in the discussion thread. The rewrite doesn't mention all that, but "African-American" is meant to describe a very specific ethnic group in the U.S. Does that answer your question? Perhaps some of the old verbiage that was expunged from the article explaining this should be reinstated? deeceevoice 08:01, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, the discussion IS a mess. But the subhead is there and the pertinent passages should be easily accessible. If you read the excised section carefully, it does mention that other such groups often are referred to as "African American," but that the term is more an external one. The purpose of this article is to discuss the group of African descendants in the U.S. (not elsewhere, not Canada, not Jamaica, etc.). As I suggested in my response to you, perhaps some of the earlier verbiage regarding other groups should be included -- or revised. I directed you to that section to catch you up on the discussion. Of course, you're more than welcome to make a passing mention of other groups you think should be included and include a redirect to links dealing with those populations. And, yes, African-Americans are a very specific ethnic group, with a specific culture, a specific history, even a specific dialect -- whether you -- an exchange student from Osaka, Japan (lol) -- wish to call us that or not. deeceevoice 14:27, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Do what you will. For someone from Japan to try to tell me who and what my people are is presumptuous at best. And that African Americans aren't an ethnic group within the U.S.? ROFLMBAO. Ignorant presumptuousness -- and with an attitude. So, hey, I reciprocated. (Always more than happy to return a gesture. :-p)
And what you characterize as "dismissive," I see as trying to be helpful. I pointed the contributor to the appropriate section (because he/she clearly hasn't a clue if he/she thinks black folks in the U.S. aren't an ethnic group) and then suggested she could include appropriate language to address her concerns and then links to articles about populations she felt were not being dealt with in this particular article. There's plenty that's already been written and chopped away (by Eurytus) and lots of food for thought in the discussion. It's there if our presumptuous friend wants to use it -- verbatim or as a point of departure. (After all, this is the kind of advice I'm constantly getting from other Wikipedians. Or, oh, my bad! I'm a newbie. Guess those kinds of comments are acceptable coming only from those who've been on wiki for a year or more. Did I forget my place?) :-p ROFLMBAO (again).
Perhaps you'd like to include in this piece similar information about any and all other groups who even remotely possibly could be included in this piece -- so that you then can come behind and divide up the article again. :-p Hey, NPOV the whole freakin' encyclopedia if that's what floats your boat. :-D Have at it!
deeceevoice 22:03, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Just saw this: "That's not to say that you are "wrong"; are you taking my point? For instance, no one would deny you are correct in saying that there is a specific dialect, but it's regional and class-based; not all 'African Americans' speak African American Vernacular English."
WTH? No, AAVE is not exclusively regional. AAVE is spoken and understood in Sookie Bottom, Alabama (a real place), and Dee-troy-it, Michigan; in Compton and Kalamazoo. It's spoken by black folks all over this nation. You think you're schoolin' me on AAVE, like you've got something to tell me about it being class-based? Let me direct you to the sentence I WROTE under AAVE: "AAVE is most commonly spoken exclusively among southern, rural African-Americans and those with working-class roots (emphasis added). Many African-Americans, however, regardless of their socioeconomic status, educational background, or where they may live, use AAVE in informal and intra-ethnic communication."
Time for a reality check, bwoi. Get a grip. deeceevoice 22:12, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Wow. I've restored the above entry. It's amusing. (The previous post was entered and then deleted by Sekicho -- with the notation "Sekicho (never mind... this is in the article anyway)" Gee, Sekicho. First, I'm not the only who wrote this article. There were lots of people who contributed and who debated your issue ad nauseam before you ever showed up. I told you this had already been covered -- and pointed you to the pertinent material. Not only didn't you read the article before your first comment, you apparently didn't bother to read the debate. Since you're so quick to hand out advice, I've got some for you: try reading stuff first before you go ballistic. deeceevoice 22:47, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Oh. And another thing: DON'T YOU SHOUT AT ME. :-p deeceevoice 09:21, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
deecee, I know you absolutely believe that an African American is necessarily of West African ancestry. I'm not contesting that this is one way to define the term. But this is not the only way to define it.
Everyone and their brother is saying that Barack Obama might be the first African American president. But is he West African? No. Does he have a drop of slave blood in him? No. Is he "African American?" According to a LOT of people, yes.
You're imposing your own definition of the word on this article. I am not opposed to your definition. In fact, I am not opposed to using it as the basis for this article. (If we never mention Ethiopians or Zulus in America, I will still be able to sleep at night.)
However, I am very opposed to stating that African American means American of West African ancestry, when that is clearly not what it often means in common use. The article has to start with the broad construction of the word, since it commonly refers to all Americans of sub-Saharan descent, and then focus on the ethnic/cultural meaning of the word, which refers to Americans of slave descent.
Do you see the issue? It's not a question of which definition is "right" or "wrong." It's a question of what "African American" means to people. Clearly, it means different things to different people. I grew up with Jamaicans and Haitians and even Nigerians who considered themselves African American and who were part of the broader African American community. They would define the word differently from how you define it.
Again, I am not debating the validity of your definition. I am simply stating that because it is not the only common definition, it should not be placed at the top of the article and treated as though it is the only common definition. - Sekicho 00:44, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
Is the United States government "ignorant and clueless?" Is every major dictionary editor "ignorant and clueless?" Is every journalist who calls Colin Powell African American "ignorant and clueless?" This is nothing like calling Fujimori el chino: there are lots and lots of reputable people who are using the broader definition.
Also, I didn't delete anything. I moved most of the first two paragraphs to the first subheading ("definition") and expanded on them quite a bit. (They're still there, by the way, so we have a lot of information in the article twice now.) The first section of the article is far too long; the table of contents should be visible when you load the page. - Sekicho 17:27, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
The following was added 31 Aug 2005, long after this discussion was archived to Talk:African American/Archive 3.
Seikico if ur parents and ethnic group come from asia and your born in america what does that make you....?
ASIAN - AMERICAN it dosent matter if ur grandparents were bombed in hiroshima or segregated in detention camps your ancestery is still ASIAN ,it dosent matter if they were chinese immigrants or a chinese emporors theyre ehtnic group is still ASIAN,that is the origin of their ancestory it is asian,now Barak Obama was born in hawaii,but he is not an ethnic hawaiian,his father is from the same africa my ancestors are from,see diagram below:
baracks ancestors<----africa----->my ancestors
now his mother is caucasian and part cherokee many african americans share this same lineage.Not necessarily a direct white parent but the other two major ethnic groups in america white and indian somewhere in their geaneology,this is quite a common phenomenon among the african american community MALCOLM X and MUHAMMED ALI also possess a partially IRISH ancestery they like most african americans of mixed heritage however dont awknowlede their caucasian part for obvious reasons .they simply dont make a federal case out it.
Now pay attention cause this is the impotant part AFRICA IS A CONTINENT,KENYA IS A PART OF THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA it dosent matter if his grandfater had "slave blood" whatever the hell that means?!He is still of african descent.
just like YOU and Bruce Lee are of ASIAN descent even though hes from China and you are Japanese you are both of ASIAN.
simply because u physically move a group of people dosent make them instant americans with no history of anywhere else.Barak Obama is obviously of AFRICAN descent as am I obviously of african descent,just because one group is taken to another country and oppresed and another group is oppresed in their own land dosent make them no longer descendants of that land.
If u need me to explain in simpler terms or need me to draw anymore pictures just let me know ill be happy to oblige :)
oh and one more thing the slave trade was pan-african,they came from all over africa the slaves were simply shipped out of west africa because its closest to the U.S. coastline but most slaves are from the waest africa region. DPJ
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