This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | → | Archive 25 |
Please add the king of pop to the infobox. What other African-American (or any American artist for that matter) has gone certified double diamond? Obviously, there are a finite number of spaces but let's start from most notable. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 23:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Soupforone, regarding this edit you made, why do you think we should include "Negro-American" in the lead, given what is noted in the "Terms no longer in common use" section of the article? Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 20:12, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Flyer22, I'm not sure what that words-as-words policy link is supposed to indicate, but Negro American redirects here. WP:LEDE also notes that "when the page title is used as the subject of the first sentence, it may appear in a slightly different form, and it may include variations, including synonyms". Negro American is a synonym for African American according to the US government, so it does belong there per the lede policy. Anyway, I understand and do agree with your point about derogatory terms. Just as long as it is understood that Negro American is indeed a synonym for African American (and was the original legal name for the population), I'm okay if it's just "Afro-American". Soupforone ( talk) 03:55, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
As both RS cited after the definition in the lede indicate, AA=black American of African descent. Neither RS says that all black/African Americans are of sub-saharan African descent. By insisting on changing the definition from black to sub-Saharan, we are deviating from RS.
The federal definitions are qualified for a reason. Some Americans of African descent--who are perceived to be and identify as black--are technically North Africans (e.g., from Northern Sudan, Somalia, or Nubia). But they are considered African Americans if they identify that way, since they're perceived as black.
(Note that "blackness" is of course a socially constructed concept that lacks biological integrity. Nonetheless, the concept still refers to a real social phenomenon.) Steeletrap ( talk) 22:50, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
All of the Afro-Asiatic-speaking countries in the northern hemisphere of Africa, from the Maghreb to the Nile Valley and Horn, have a mixture of different ancestral stocks. Through cultural inheritance, they are Arab Americans. The Iberomaurusians were, for example, dark-skinned, but genetically they were closely related to Cro-Magnons (who were also dark-skinned). As regards African Americans, they are mainly of West African descent, notwithstanding their European or Native American ancestry. The other uslegal link explains that they are Americans with at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry; this is certainly less ambiguous than "black". Mariah Carey probably has less such ancestry than some Middle Easterners. Nonetheless, she is partially African American because her father was African American. Soupforone ( talk) 02:46, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Why are there no African-American scientists or inventors featured in the image box at the top of the page? There's no sign of George Washington Carver, or Elijah McCoy, or Neil deGrasse Tyson, all prominent and influential in their fields. Tyson's picture is stuck way down in the section on "education", as if his educational attainment were more noteworthy than his professional accomplishments. This mystifies me. — Coconutporkpie ( talk) 21:11, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Really, isn't there some better example Outedexits ( talk) 13:15, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Please change this, makes it looks comedic and peavish. Lope 181.50.106.49 ( talk) 20:06, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
[outdent] If Mariah Carey has a Black parent, was raised in Black culture, and self-identifies as African American, I think it's fine to identify her as both African American and Mixed Race. She is both. Another example of a person who doesn't necessarily "look Black" to many, but identifies as such, is Rashida Jones, the daughter of Quincy Jones. Both are different from Dolezal as Dolezal was raised white, has white parents, and fabricated a new, fictitious identity for herself. Totally different. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 17:07, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
": Flyer22 Reborn Wath is problem if i says my true ethnic and backgroung if thousands of million also says that they are blacks or "afro american"s and they have the right of contribute in a ethnic page as this, and they just have of african when 600 years old they were in reality afro or african, now they are just americans called they self "african". i have to right to say, as you says, the same too. ok i am white latino., and with in reality matter, in she there facts and sources much more valids, that shes is a latina, than the suppose that shes is african american, that she said that is african american, and you people like her, dont support anything, is like say that obama is white (just that in case that he could said) just beacause he said that. is not valid too. shes has complete backgrounds of Venezuelan (latina), and WHITE..-.. shes not can be included here no think change much but you can read now?-- Vvven ( talk) 00:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)"
On a somewhat related note, have a look at this edit on "White people" where "people who aren't completely white, people for whom visual evidence is inadequate, and ugly people" were removed. Here we are pushing to include someone with a parent who is in turn half-African American, there they purge people who aren't "101% white" or are too ugly to be a good example of the pure race. This is awful. LjL ( talk) 18:14, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Note: Noting here that Vvven has again removed Carey, this time with an absurd edit summary. Vvven, considering Talk:Mariah Carey#RfC: Are "African American" categories supported by sources and policy?, good luck removing Carey from African American categories...if you try that next. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:23, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Accord of the discussion in Mariah Carey composed of fanatics Afro Americans people, just says a couple of lies and not based in true arguments. Her father is a Latino Venezuelan, not an african american. Carey also has a white mother. For this same dumb fact, she should also be included in White Americans article. --Vvven (talk) 23:30, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
This is not a crusade, this is says the true to diffenrence to this facade of this article. an article with intentions to feel proud more in biased terms of who is who is not than says the true. they could be fanatism because says that a Venezuelan is African American or says that an Irish American is balck is be a blind.-- Vvven ( talk) 00:13, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Personally, I fail to see how Carey is more noteworthy as a female representative of the performing arts than Billie Holliday, Ella Fitzgerald, Leontyne Price, Diana Ross, or Nina Simone, to name a few examples. — Coconutporkpie ( talk) 21:43, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
I created this subsection so that it's very clear that a related WP:RfC has resulted from this discussion: Talk:Mariah Carey#RfC: Are "African American" categories supported by sources and policy?. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:01, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
Broadmoor added a little green arrow showing that the African American population is increasing, but MShabazz later removed it on the grounds the the template's documentation supposedly doesn't endorse such use. The situation repeated itself, and I intervened to restore the arrow because I saw nothing in the template's documentation that would forbid its use. I was then informed (after a third revert by MShabazz) that a discussion was in progress at Bradmoor's talk page, instead of here. I'm taking it here as it seems a lot more proper. LjL ( talk) 22:05, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
(too many edit conflicts) LjL, you're speculating about the meaning of the arrow, and Broadmoor is being a dick. I have several articles about ethnic groups on my watchlist, and today is the first time I've seen anybody add an arrow to the population. I tried to discuss the matter with Broadmoor, but he was a dick -- telling me to fix the other articles (presumably by adding arrows) instead of this one. Broadmoor claims all other articles about ethnic groups have the arrows, but they don't: look at Japanese Americans, American Jews, or Jews. On Wikipedia, when an editor adds material to an article, the responsibility is theirs to justify their addition, not on others to justify why it doesn't belong. See WP:BRD. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 22:41, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
LjL, Broadmoor's "explanation" for undoing my revert, both in their edit summary and on their talk page, was piss-poor. They have been a dick about this whole thing. (Read their contributions to this page and their talk page if you don't believe me.) I went to their talk page because they have never made a single edit to this talk page, ever, despite making 81 edits to the article, and I didn't feel like talking to myself. Finally, it's time for you to be honest: You don't like my explanation, but that doesn't make it invalid. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 23:47, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
The term is now obsolete and is rarely used anymore. MB298 ( talk) 23:09, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
I added several photos to the template, per WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE. I don't find it particularly odd that a country with over 42 million African Americans living in the U.S., and however many more in its history, would have enough notable entries to at least extend the article's photo template to, the Contents box of the article about African Americans. That is exactly what I did here. But some editors have claimed that is "way too much." But they haven't explained why, or why [ several lines of blank space] is somehow pre to relevant images? Also, no one has provided a policy or guidelines which supports that conclusion.
Finally, while I am generally loath to quote policies and guidelines verbatim, I think this section of MOS is pretty definitive:
Images must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly and directly related to the article's topic. Because the Wikipedia project is in a position to offer multimedia learning to its audience, images are an important part of any article's presentation. Effort should therefore be made to improve quality and choice of images or captions in articles rather than favoring their removal, especially on pages that have few visuals.
In that context, I also welcome editors to offer which photos I included were too insignificant to merit inclusion. Because editors have arbitrarily removed, without referencing any policy or MOS guideline people like:
and
They're all apparently disposable in the article, despite their notability. Or, as one editor suggested, one could just "replace" anyone left in the article. But who in this list is so non-notable that he/she merits replacement?:
Again, if someone can reference a policy/guideline or MOS which supersedes IMAGE RELEVANCE and argues in favor of empty blank space over notable photos, please let me know, so we can discuss it here. Thanks. X4n6 ( talk) 15:35, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
So yea, don't do that anymore. Using the policy you are citing as a reason is weak sauce. Dave Dial ( talk) 15:46, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
I have made changes to the infobox. These changes reflect the consensus reached in these talk pages. There are 36 African Americans who I felt are most notable for diverse achievements in the political, economic and cultural spheres. I paid attention to historical and gender diversity as well. DanJazzy ( talk) 13:59, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
That's a made up rule. It is not Wikipedia policy. DanJazzy ( talk) 19:34, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Outside of the Obama family portrait, there's only a single African-American woman ( Michelle Obama again), pictured on this page, and - well, depends how you want to count it, but there's 6 individual portraits of men, one of two men (one Caucasian), and a couple group portraits that are pretty much all male as well. That seems problematic. Offhand, ignoring musicians (as, frankly, there's far too many to even begin listing once you go there: entertainers are easily the most photographed individuals, and we have entire archives of Jazz performers (for example) released into the public domain), I could suggest Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, Rosa Parks, Barbara Jordan, Shirley Chisholm, and/or Maya Angelou, perhaps? Decent images for all of them. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 01:07, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
This message is to inform interested editors of a discussion at the Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding the use and number of pictures in the infoboxes. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. Any editors are welcome to add themselves as a party, and you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is " Talk:African Americans". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 00:56, 3 February 2016 (UTC) (DRN Volunteer)
I came to this article see if "black" was capitalized mid-sentence to follow however this article does it in the Baltimore article, which is all over the place, but I'm noticing it's inconsistent here as well. Looks like it's lowercase more often, but it's capitalized randomly too. Is there a specific policy or general consensus about it? PermStrump (talk) 01:02, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. This has been set up to determine the appropriateness of sections such as the "genetics" section in this article. I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. -- Katangais (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
This
edit request to
African Americans has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under Terminology/Admixture: please change "...until the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitional in Loving v. Virginia (1967)." to "...until the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional in Loving v. Virginia (1967)." Unconstitional is not a word. Midnight magician ( talk) 17:32, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Citation 14 http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(14)00476-5 has the full genome for African Americans---African, European, and Native American. Citation 13 http://www.pnas.org/content/107/2/786.long does not, so we cannot state "78 percent West African, 19 percent European, and 3 percent Native American heritage", when citation 13 clearly does not state this exactly. Nowhere in citation 13 does it state that AAs are on average 3 percent Native American. That is way too high an estimate and one not even supported by Katarzyna Bryc, the author of the study, herself. This is why there is discussion on Wikiproject Ethnic Groups to delete genetics, because many people believe that the findings are being misinterpreted. I believe the genetics sections should stay because they are essential to certain ethnic groups like AAs who have had their history and ancestry largely obscured due to slavery, but if we're going to put numbers down, we need to put the right numbers down. Citation 14 actually has the full genome (with a margin of error, yes, but) not rounded up, and was written here exactly as the citation has it. Even saying "19 percent European" is misinterpreting the study of citation 13. We can't round up or down for genetics or put information about Native American dna for AAs when it isn't even given in the citation. In fact, citation 13 was a study to show how intermediate AAs are in between West Africans and Europeans---Native Americans weren't really factored into this study. Citation 14 gives how much Native American DNA AAs have on average. Kinfoll1993 ( talk) 03:13, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
The Bryc lab culled its own African American sample for its 2009 analysis. The sample contained some individuals with parents of different heritage since the West African ancestry proportion ranged from 99% to 1% (78.1% on average). For its 2014 analysis, the lab apparently did borrow its African American sample, but Bryc indicates that they were unable to ascertain the exact West African and Native American ethnic groups/tribes ("at present, unable to delve deeper into the complexity of, and subancestries within, Native American and West African populations" [4]). Just the general tripartite ancestry proportions for the population,. Soupforone ( talk) 01:27, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Unlike previous estimates of the mean proportion of African ancestry, which typically have ranged from 77% to 93% African ancestry, our estimates, depending on exclusions, are 73% or 75%.
Katarzyna Bryc, Eric Y. Durand, J. Michael Macpherson, David Reich, Joanna L. Mountain, The Genetic Ancestry of African Americans, Latinos, and European Americans across the United States
Yes, the Zakharia lab used different Native American baselines. Under its three-population admixture models, the Zakharia lab attempts to gauge in which order the tripartite founding admixture happened. It concludes that the African American population was established by intermarriage between West Africans and Native Americans, followed by two pulses of European admixture. The Bryc lab assertion above only highlights the West African percentage, and its average rather than absolute range. The lab indicates elsewhere [5] -- "consistent with previous studies, the diversity of ancestry profiles of 23andMe African Americans reveal that individuals comprise the full range from 0% to 100% African ancestry, but, further, that there are differences in estimates of ancestry proportions among regions". 0%-100% or thereabouts is thus the absolute range, and 73%-75% is the average range. Bryc also indicates -- "Genome-wide ancestry estimates of African Americans show average proportions of 73.2% African, 24.0% European, and 0.8% Native American ancestry... At present, we are unable to delve deeper into the complexity of, and subancestries within, Native American and West African populations." Likewise, the Zakharia lab indicates [6] -- "We used available parents among the trios in the Southern Han Chinese (CHS), Yoruba in Ibadan, Nigeria (YRI), and Utah Residents (CEPH) with Northern and Western European Ancestry (CEU) populations from the 1000 Genomes Project as a reference panel, comprising 50 CHS, 97 YRI, and 91 CEU individuals... We performed a supervised K = 4 run of ADMIXTURE [42] on African-Americans from HRS, SCCS, and ASW, with the YRI, CHS, GBR, IBS cohorts from the 1000 Genomes Project used as the reference populations representing African, Native American/Asian, northern European, and southern European ancestral populations... The mean ancestry proportions for African-Americans in HRS, as estimated by ADMIXTURE, are 81.583% for African, 17.333% for European (southern and northern combined), and 1.083% for Native American, in very good agreement with those derived using local ancestry estimates of RFMix (see main text). In comparison, the ancestry proportions for the ASW cohort are 75.726% for African, 21.881% for European (southern and northern combined), and 2.394% for Native American." The tripartite percentages therefore vary. Soupforone ( talk) 01:58, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I would agree with Soupforones suggestion of the compromise of both the byrc and zakharia studies. Underbelly
"...ancestry from any of the Black racial groups of Africa". This is incorrect because it insinuates that there is more than one racial group in Africa. There is only one human racial group in the world and all human beings fall under that group. It should be changed to "...Black populations of Africa." as stated in one of the sources. Let's try to end this ignorance regarding the socially constructed misconception about human races!
If you would like to dispute my facts there is an excellent Wikipedia page on the subject where you will find the information needed to verify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.4.128.242 ( talk) 13:01, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
(warning: "I'm not racist but..." material, ranting)
I know it was most likely removed to not look racist, but please, can we just have an image in the infobox that gets across "this is roughly what black people look like. Not all black people look like this, of course, but they usually tend to look vaguely similar to this." It isn't racist to give an example of what a normal individual would see and identify as "black" or "African American" any more than it'd be racist to show someone and say "this person looks pretty white" (OK, well, that would be potentially racist, but something more similar to the earlier description wouldn't be); it's just providing examples. It isn't as much of an issue here- most people, at least where I live, know the general common traits of a black person- dark skin, dark hair, etc.
However, it seems that this was applied to other races too; Albanians includes few modern images of Albanians, at least near the top. You know what? I have no f***ing clue what Albanians look like. I'm sorry, but I don't. Most people I know, off the top of their heads, couldn't describe Albanians to you at gunpoint.
Remember: An image of an actual person of a group that doesn't have any obvious physical differences from most other people isn't a racial stereotype because that person is actually a member of the group. It wouldn't be accurate to show an image of The Elephant Man under an article describing English people, but it's accurate to show a picture of an actual, generally-physiologically-average English person there.
End-of-rant.
Hppavilion1 ( talk) 06:27, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I had some thoughts about the Terminology section. As most people reading this page will most likely be English Language speakers, I just wanted to highlight the difference in usage of the word "boy". In England, calling someone a "boy" is ok, and it's part of the language culture -- I believe irrespective of race/origin. However, in the US referring to an African-American as "boy" would be highly derogatory. I believe no different than the "N" word. I'm not yet ready to edit and write on main pages, so just wondering if anyone has any thoughts about this? My thought is to clearly distinguish the use of "boy" in England from its (historic & degrading) use in the USA. Let's say someone from England comes to the US to visit, and they don't know the historical context of "boy" in regard to African Americans. S/he may playfully/ignorantly call an African-American teenager "boy" -- and then be considered bigoted. If you ever watch the UK tv show "Doc Martin" one of the characters constantly calls his son "boy". Just thought I'd run this by the community. Torfrid ( talk) 20:01, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | → | Archive 25 |
Please add the king of pop to the infobox. What other African-American (or any American artist for that matter) has gone certified double diamond? Obviously, there are a finite number of spaces but let's start from most notable. Savvyjack23 ( talk) 23:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Soupforone, regarding this edit you made, why do you think we should include "Negro-American" in the lead, given what is noted in the "Terms no longer in common use" section of the article? Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 20:12, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Flyer22, I'm not sure what that words-as-words policy link is supposed to indicate, but Negro American redirects here. WP:LEDE also notes that "when the page title is used as the subject of the first sentence, it may appear in a slightly different form, and it may include variations, including synonyms". Negro American is a synonym for African American according to the US government, so it does belong there per the lede policy. Anyway, I understand and do agree with your point about derogatory terms. Just as long as it is understood that Negro American is indeed a synonym for African American (and was the original legal name for the population), I'm okay if it's just "Afro-American". Soupforone ( talk) 03:55, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
As both RS cited after the definition in the lede indicate, AA=black American of African descent. Neither RS says that all black/African Americans are of sub-saharan African descent. By insisting on changing the definition from black to sub-Saharan, we are deviating from RS.
The federal definitions are qualified for a reason. Some Americans of African descent--who are perceived to be and identify as black--are technically North Africans (e.g., from Northern Sudan, Somalia, or Nubia). But they are considered African Americans if they identify that way, since they're perceived as black.
(Note that "blackness" is of course a socially constructed concept that lacks biological integrity. Nonetheless, the concept still refers to a real social phenomenon.) Steeletrap ( talk) 22:50, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
All of the Afro-Asiatic-speaking countries in the northern hemisphere of Africa, from the Maghreb to the Nile Valley and Horn, have a mixture of different ancestral stocks. Through cultural inheritance, they are Arab Americans. The Iberomaurusians were, for example, dark-skinned, but genetically they were closely related to Cro-Magnons (who were also dark-skinned). As regards African Americans, they are mainly of West African descent, notwithstanding their European or Native American ancestry. The other uslegal link explains that they are Americans with at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry; this is certainly less ambiguous than "black". Mariah Carey probably has less such ancestry than some Middle Easterners. Nonetheless, she is partially African American because her father was African American. Soupforone ( talk) 02:46, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Why are there no African-American scientists or inventors featured in the image box at the top of the page? There's no sign of George Washington Carver, or Elijah McCoy, or Neil deGrasse Tyson, all prominent and influential in their fields. Tyson's picture is stuck way down in the section on "education", as if his educational attainment were more noteworthy than his professional accomplishments. This mystifies me. — Coconutporkpie ( talk) 21:11, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Really, isn't there some better example Outedexits ( talk) 13:15, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Please change this, makes it looks comedic and peavish. Lope 181.50.106.49 ( talk) 20:06, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
[outdent] If Mariah Carey has a Black parent, was raised in Black culture, and self-identifies as African American, I think it's fine to identify her as both African American and Mixed Race. She is both. Another example of a person who doesn't necessarily "look Black" to many, but identifies as such, is Rashida Jones, the daughter of Quincy Jones. Both are different from Dolezal as Dolezal was raised white, has white parents, and fabricated a new, fictitious identity for herself. Totally different. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 17:07, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
": Flyer22 Reborn Wath is problem if i says my true ethnic and backgroung if thousands of million also says that they are blacks or "afro american"s and they have the right of contribute in a ethnic page as this, and they just have of african when 600 years old they were in reality afro or african, now they are just americans called they self "african". i have to right to say, as you says, the same too. ok i am white latino., and with in reality matter, in she there facts and sources much more valids, that shes is a latina, than the suppose that shes is african american, that she said that is african american, and you people like her, dont support anything, is like say that obama is white (just that in case that he could said) just beacause he said that. is not valid too. shes has complete backgrounds of Venezuelan (latina), and WHITE..-.. shes not can be included here no think change much but you can read now?-- Vvven ( talk) 00:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)"
On a somewhat related note, have a look at this edit on "White people" where "people who aren't completely white, people for whom visual evidence is inadequate, and ugly people" were removed. Here we are pushing to include someone with a parent who is in turn half-African American, there they purge people who aren't "101% white" or are too ugly to be a good example of the pure race. This is awful. LjL ( talk) 18:14, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Note: Noting here that Vvven has again removed Carey, this time with an absurd edit summary. Vvven, considering Talk:Mariah Carey#RfC: Are "African American" categories supported by sources and policy?, good luck removing Carey from African American categories...if you try that next. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:23, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Accord of the discussion in Mariah Carey composed of fanatics Afro Americans people, just says a couple of lies and not based in true arguments. Her father is a Latino Venezuelan, not an african american. Carey also has a white mother. For this same dumb fact, she should also be included in White Americans article. --Vvven (talk) 23:30, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
This is not a crusade, this is says the true to diffenrence to this facade of this article. an article with intentions to feel proud more in biased terms of who is who is not than says the true. they could be fanatism because says that a Venezuelan is African American or says that an Irish American is balck is be a blind.-- Vvven ( talk) 00:13, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Personally, I fail to see how Carey is more noteworthy as a female representative of the performing arts than Billie Holliday, Ella Fitzgerald, Leontyne Price, Diana Ross, or Nina Simone, to name a few examples. — Coconutporkpie ( talk) 21:43, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
I created this subsection so that it's very clear that a related WP:RfC has resulted from this discussion: Talk:Mariah Carey#RfC: Are "African American" categories supported by sources and policy?. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:01, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
Broadmoor added a little green arrow showing that the African American population is increasing, but MShabazz later removed it on the grounds the the template's documentation supposedly doesn't endorse such use. The situation repeated itself, and I intervened to restore the arrow because I saw nothing in the template's documentation that would forbid its use. I was then informed (after a third revert by MShabazz) that a discussion was in progress at Bradmoor's talk page, instead of here. I'm taking it here as it seems a lot more proper. LjL ( talk) 22:05, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
(too many edit conflicts) LjL, you're speculating about the meaning of the arrow, and Broadmoor is being a dick. I have several articles about ethnic groups on my watchlist, and today is the first time I've seen anybody add an arrow to the population. I tried to discuss the matter with Broadmoor, but he was a dick -- telling me to fix the other articles (presumably by adding arrows) instead of this one. Broadmoor claims all other articles about ethnic groups have the arrows, but they don't: look at Japanese Americans, American Jews, or Jews. On Wikipedia, when an editor adds material to an article, the responsibility is theirs to justify their addition, not on others to justify why it doesn't belong. See WP:BRD. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 22:41, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
LjL, Broadmoor's "explanation" for undoing my revert, both in their edit summary and on their talk page, was piss-poor. They have been a dick about this whole thing. (Read their contributions to this page and their talk page if you don't believe me.) I went to their talk page because they have never made a single edit to this talk page, ever, despite making 81 edits to the article, and I didn't feel like talking to myself. Finally, it's time for you to be honest: You don't like my explanation, but that doesn't make it invalid. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 23:47, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
The term is now obsolete and is rarely used anymore. MB298 ( talk) 23:09, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
I added several photos to the template, per WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE. I don't find it particularly odd that a country with over 42 million African Americans living in the U.S., and however many more in its history, would have enough notable entries to at least extend the article's photo template to, the Contents box of the article about African Americans. That is exactly what I did here. But some editors have claimed that is "way too much." But they haven't explained why, or why [ several lines of blank space] is somehow pre to relevant images? Also, no one has provided a policy or guidelines which supports that conclusion.
Finally, while I am generally loath to quote policies and guidelines verbatim, I think this section of MOS is pretty definitive:
Images must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly and directly related to the article's topic. Because the Wikipedia project is in a position to offer multimedia learning to its audience, images are an important part of any article's presentation. Effort should therefore be made to improve quality and choice of images or captions in articles rather than favoring their removal, especially on pages that have few visuals.
In that context, I also welcome editors to offer which photos I included were too insignificant to merit inclusion. Because editors have arbitrarily removed, without referencing any policy or MOS guideline people like:
and
They're all apparently disposable in the article, despite their notability. Or, as one editor suggested, one could just "replace" anyone left in the article. But who in this list is so non-notable that he/she merits replacement?:
Again, if someone can reference a policy/guideline or MOS which supersedes IMAGE RELEVANCE and argues in favor of empty blank space over notable photos, please let me know, so we can discuss it here. Thanks. X4n6 ( talk) 15:35, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
So yea, don't do that anymore. Using the policy you are citing as a reason is weak sauce. Dave Dial ( talk) 15:46, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
I have made changes to the infobox. These changes reflect the consensus reached in these talk pages. There are 36 African Americans who I felt are most notable for diverse achievements in the political, economic and cultural spheres. I paid attention to historical and gender diversity as well. DanJazzy ( talk) 13:59, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
That's a made up rule. It is not Wikipedia policy. DanJazzy ( talk) 19:34, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Outside of the Obama family portrait, there's only a single African-American woman ( Michelle Obama again), pictured on this page, and - well, depends how you want to count it, but there's 6 individual portraits of men, one of two men (one Caucasian), and a couple group portraits that are pretty much all male as well. That seems problematic. Offhand, ignoring musicians (as, frankly, there's far too many to even begin listing once you go there: entertainers are easily the most photographed individuals, and we have entire archives of Jazz performers (for example) released into the public domain), I could suggest Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, Rosa Parks, Barbara Jordan, Shirley Chisholm, and/or Maya Angelou, perhaps? Decent images for all of them. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 01:07, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
This message is to inform interested editors of a discussion at the Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding the use and number of pictures in the infoboxes. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. Any editors are welcome to add themselves as a party, and you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is " Talk:African Americans". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 00:56, 3 February 2016 (UTC) (DRN Volunteer)
I came to this article see if "black" was capitalized mid-sentence to follow however this article does it in the Baltimore article, which is all over the place, but I'm noticing it's inconsistent here as well. Looks like it's lowercase more often, but it's capitalized randomly too. Is there a specific policy or general consensus about it? PermStrump (talk) 01:02, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. This has been set up to determine the appropriateness of sections such as the "genetics" section in this article. I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. -- Katangais (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
This
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Under Terminology/Admixture: please change "...until the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitional in Loving v. Virginia (1967)." to "...until the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional in Loving v. Virginia (1967)." Unconstitional is not a word. Midnight magician ( talk) 17:32, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Citation 14 http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(14)00476-5 has the full genome for African Americans---African, European, and Native American. Citation 13 http://www.pnas.org/content/107/2/786.long does not, so we cannot state "78 percent West African, 19 percent European, and 3 percent Native American heritage", when citation 13 clearly does not state this exactly. Nowhere in citation 13 does it state that AAs are on average 3 percent Native American. That is way too high an estimate and one not even supported by Katarzyna Bryc, the author of the study, herself. This is why there is discussion on Wikiproject Ethnic Groups to delete genetics, because many people believe that the findings are being misinterpreted. I believe the genetics sections should stay because they are essential to certain ethnic groups like AAs who have had their history and ancestry largely obscured due to slavery, but if we're going to put numbers down, we need to put the right numbers down. Citation 14 actually has the full genome (with a margin of error, yes, but) not rounded up, and was written here exactly as the citation has it. Even saying "19 percent European" is misinterpreting the study of citation 13. We can't round up or down for genetics or put information about Native American dna for AAs when it isn't even given in the citation. In fact, citation 13 was a study to show how intermediate AAs are in between West Africans and Europeans---Native Americans weren't really factored into this study. Citation 14 gives how much Native American DNA AAs have on average. Kinfoll1993 ( talk) 03:13, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
The Bryc lab culled its own African American sample for its 2009 analysis. The sample contained some individuals with parents of different heritage since the West African ancestry proportion ranged from 99% to 1% (78.1% on average). For its 2014 analysis, the lab apparently did borrow its African American sample, but Bryc indicates that they were unable to ascertain the exact West African and Native American ethnic groups/tribes ("at present, unable to delve deeper into the complexity of, and subancestries within, Native American and West African populations" [4]). Just the general tripartite ancestry proportions for the population,. Soupforone ( talk) 01:27, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Unlike previous estimates of the mean proportion of African ancestry, which typically have ranged from 77% to 93% African ancestry, our estimates, depending on exclusions, are 73% or 75%.
Katarzyna Bryc, Eric Y. Durand, J. Michael Macpherson, David Reich, Joanna L. Mountain, The Genetic Ancestry of African Americans, Latinos, and European Americans across the United States
Yes, the Zakharia lab used different Native American baselines. Under its three-population admixture models, the Zakharia lab attempts to gauge in which order the tripartite founding admixture happened. It concludes that the African American population was established by intermarriage between West Africans and Native Americans, followed by two pulses of European admixture. The Bryc lab assertion above only highlights the West African percentage, and its average rather than absolute range. The lab indicates elsewhere [5] -- "consistent with previous studies, the diversity of ancestry profiles of 23andMe African Americans reveal that individuals comprise the full range from 0% to 100% African ancestry, but, further, that there are differences in estimates of ancestry proportions among regions". 0%-100% or thereabouts is thus the absolute range, and 73%-75% is the average range. Bryc also indicates -- "Genome-wide ancestry estimates of African Americans show average proportions of 73.2% African, 24.0% European, and 0.8% Native American ancestry... At present, we are unable to delve deeper into the complexity of, and subancestries within, Native American and West African populations." Likewise, the Zakharia lab indicates [6] -- "We used available parents among the trios in the Southern Han Chinese (CHS), Yoruba in Ibadan, Nigeria (YRI), and Utah Residents (CEPH) with Northern and Western European Ancestry (CEU) populations from the 1000 Genomes Project as a reference panel, comprising 50 CHS, 97 YRI, and 91 CEU individuals... We performed a supervised K = 4 run of ADMIXTURE [42] on African-Americans from HRS, SCCS, and ASW, with the YRI, CHS, GBR, IBS cohorts from the 1000 Genomes Project used as the reference populations representing African, Native American/Asian, northern European, and southern European ancestral populations... The mean ancestry proportions for African-Americans in HRS, as estimated by ADMIXTURE, are 81.583% for African, 17.333% for European (southern and northern combined), and 1.083% for Native American, in very good agreement with those derived using local ancestry estimates of RFMix (see main text). In comparison, the ancestry proportions for the ASW cohort are 75.726% for African, 21.881% for European (southern and northern combined), and 2.394% for Native American." The tripartite percentages therefore vary. Soupforone ( talk) 01:58, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I would agree with Soupforones suggestion of the compromise of both the byrc and zakharia studies. Underbelly
"...ancestry from any of the Black racial groups of Africa". This is incorrect because it insinuates that there is more than one racial group in Africa. There is only one human racial group in the world and all human beings fall under that group. It should be changed to "...Black populations of Africa." as stated in one of the sources. Let's try to end this ignorance regarding the socially constructed misconception about human races!
If you would like to dispute my facts there is an excellent Wikipedia page on the subject where you will find the information needed to verify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.4.128.242 ( talk) 13:01, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
(warning: "I'm not racist but..." material, ranting)
I know it was most likely removed to not look racist, but please, can we just have an image in the infobox that gets across "this is roughly what black people look like. Not all black people look like this, of course, but they usually tend to look vaguely similar to this." It isn't racist to give an example of what a normal individual would see and identify as "black" or "African American" any more than it'd be racist to show someone and say "this person looks pretty white" (OK, well, that would be potentially racist, but something more similar to the earlier description wouldn't be); it's just providing examples. It isn't as much of an issue here- most people, at least where I live, know the general common traits of a black person- dark skin, dark hair, etc.
However, it seems that this was applied to other races too; Albanians includes few modern images of Albanians, at least near the top. You know what? I have no f***ing clue what Albanians look like. I'm sorry, but I don't. Most people I know, off the top of their heads, couldn't describe Albanians to you at gunpoint.
Remember: An image of an actual person of a group that doesn't have any obvious physical differences from most other people isn't a racial stereotype because that person is actually a member of the group. It wouldn't be accurate to show an image of The Elephant Man under an article describing English people, but it's accurate to show a picture of an actual, generally-physiologically-average English person there.
End-of-rant.
Hppavilion1 ( talk) 06:27, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I had some thoughts about the Terminology section. As most people reading this page will most likely be English Language speakers, I just wanted to highlight the difference in usage of the word "boy". In England, calling someone a "boy" is ok, and it's part of the language culture -- I believe irrespective of race/origin. However, in the US referring to an African-American as "boy" would be highly derogatory. I believe no different than the "N" word. I'm not yet ready to edit and write on main pages, so just wondering if anyone has any thoughts about this? My thought is to clearly distinguish the use of "boy" in England from its (historic & degrading) use in the USA. Let's say someone from England comes to the US to visit, and they don't know the historical context of "boy" in regard to African Americans. S/he may playfully/ignorantly call an African-American teenager "boy" -- and then be considered bigoted. If you ever watch the UK tv show "Doc Martin" one of the characters constantly calls his son "boy". Just thought I'd run this by the community. Torfrid ( talk) 20:01, 13 July 2016 (UTC)