This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Afghan (tribal chief) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A HUMBLE REQUEST
Do not edit if you cannot provide a factual reference. Every edit must be backed up by a scholarly reference. Un referenced material cannot be accepted and will eventually be removed. Do not vandalizes, do not add personal references. Learn to respect and appreciate differences of opinion without personal prejudice. Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan ( talk) 08:42, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
This is the key bit that I've removed from the article:
Additionally, he is also credited with the building of the first temple: [1]
-
"Malak Afghana, grandson of Malak (King) Saul (Talut) who was King Solomon's Commander-in-Chief, and builder of his temple in BC 1005"
-
Here is what the source actually says:
"An interesting additional historical bit is that Kais, by similar legend, traces his ancestry to Afghans (in 37th lineal destent). son of Jeremiah, son of Saul (Talut) who was King Solomon's Communder in-Chief, and builder of his temple in B.C. 1005. Later Saul became King (Malik) of Israel." (Note I see Afghans but presumably this is Afghana). Why was the quote changed? And it seems to say that Saul was the temple builder. Dougweller ( talk) 09:25, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
"An interesting additional historical bit is that Kais, by similar legend, traces his ancestry to Afghana (in 37th lineal descent). son of Jeremiah, son of Saul (Talut) who was King Solomon's Commander in-Chief, and builder of his temple in B.C. 1005." Additionally the words "Later Saul became King (Malik) of Israel." represents Afghana's father Jermiah's father Saul, who became king, but this happened before King Solomon and David. It creates confusion since it is written at the end of Afghana's description. So the family tree descent is actually accurate but writing it later creates confusion.
Why are these errors present? the original version was printed in 1965!! they did not have computers back then!! however if you reach the publishers or any expert in the field they will clarify it and place the same views as I expressed. Thank you again. I hope if you have removed this part that you will re establish it. Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan ( talk) 15:28, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan ( talk) 17:55, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
References
It's hard to see these all these references as either necessary or actually used in creation of this brief article. When so many references are added to such a short article, it's generally because of one or more of a couple of reasons:
Based on the responses on my talk page from the article's creator, it seems like #3 is the primary reason for so many references. This violates, at least in part, WP:NOT#WEBHOST. References should be used to demonstrate where information in the article came from, not as a notepad for future reasearch on the topic.-- RadioFan ( talk) 22:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan ( talk) 22:31, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
This section starts by saying "Afghana is always referred to as Malak". However, a search on "Malak Afghana" on Google books and Google Scholar turns up nothing at all for me. On the other hand, it's easy to find the name Afghana mentioned without the word 'Malak'. We can't have a section with this title as it clearly is wrong. Dougweller ( talk) 13:51, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Should this be reduced to a stub and start the article over? Between the questions on how information is being presented (above) and assertion from the article's creator that the article is being used to publicize references for other researchers on the topic (which is arguably in violation of WP:NOT#WEBHOST]. The topic is likely notable and history is worth keeping (I'm not seeing anything inflammatory or a copyvio).-- RadioFan ( talk) 14:09, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Should be featured prominently and mentioned in the lead. A bit from Hastingg: "Though pre-Islamatic Afghanistan has no real history, it is rich in legends of its origin. The best known of these traditions, to which allusion haa already been made in the preceding Article, is preserved in a Persian history of the Afghans by Ni'amat Allah [Ni'matullah] an author of the Itth ccntury... According to his account, the eponymous hero of the Afghans was Afghana ibn Irmia ibn Talut (Saul). Afghana himself was the conmander-in-chief of Solomon's army, and through his executive ability he was enabled to complete the Temple at Jerusalem. When, however, the Israelites were scattered abroad by Nebuchadnezza, Afghana and his children (numbering forty) were also dispersed; and some settled around Ghor and others near Mecca, where they remained for fifteen hundred years, obeying the Torah in all things." Dougweller ( talk) 18:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Afghana. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:37, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Afghan (tribal chief) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A HUMBLE REQUEST
Do not edit if you cannot provide a factual reference. Every edit must be backed up by a scholarly reference. Un referenced material cannot be accepted and will eventually be removed. Do not vandalizes, do not add personal references. Learn to respect and appreciate differences of opinion without personal prejudice. Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan ( talk) 08:42, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
This is the key bit that I've removed from the article:
Additionally, he is also credited with the building of the first temple: [1]
-
"Malak Afghana, grandson of Malak (King) Saul (Talut) who was King Solomon's Commander-in-Chief, and builder of his temple in BC 1005"
-
Here is what the source actually says:
"An interesting additional historical bit is that Kais, by similar legend, traces his ancestry to Afghans (in 37th lineal destent). son of Jeremiah, son of Saul (Talut) who was King Solomon's Communder in-Chief, and builder of his temple in B.C. 1005. Later Saul became King (Malik) of Israel." (Note I see Afghans but presumably this is Afghana). Why was the quote changed? And it seems to say that Saul was the temple builder. Dougweller ( talk) 09:25, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
"An interesting additional historical bit is that Kais, by similar legend, traces his ancestry to Afghana (in 37th lineal descent). son of Jeremiah, son of Saul (Talut) who was King Solomon's Commander in-Chief, and builder of his temple in B.C. 1005." Additionally the words "Later Saul became King (Malik) of Israel." represents Afghana's father Jermiah's father Saul, who became king, but this happened before King Solomon and David. It creates confusion since it is written at the end of Afghana's description. So the family tree descent is actually accurate but writing it later creates confusion.
Why are these errors present? the original version was printed in 1965!! they did not have computers back then!! however if you reach the publishers or any expert in the field they will clarify it and place the same views as I expressed. Thank you again. I hope if you have removed this part that you will re establish it. Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan ( talk) 15:28, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan ( talk) 17:55, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
References
It's hard to see these all these references as either necessary or actually used in creation of this brief article. When so many references are added to such a short article, it's generally because of one or more of a couple of reasons:
Based on the responses on my talk page from the article's creator, it seems like #3 is the primary reason for so many references. This violates, at least in part, WP:NOT#WEBHOST. References should be used to demonstrate where information in the article came from, not as a notepad for future reasearch on the topic.-- RadioFan ( talk) 22:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Dr Pukhtunyar Afghan ( talk) 22:31, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
This section starts by saying "Afghana is always referred to as Malak". However, a search on "Malak Afghana" on Google books and Google Scholar turns up nothing at all for me. On the other hand, it's easy to find the name Afghana mentioned without the word 'Malak'. We can't have a section with this title as it clearly is wrong. Dougweller ( talk) 13:51, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Should this be reduced to a stub and start the article over? Between the questions on how information is being presented (above) and assertion from the article's creator that the article is being used to publicize references for other researchers on the topic (which is arguably in violation of WP:NOT#WEBHOST]. The topic is likely notable and history is worth keeping (I'm not seeing anything inflammatory or a copyvio).-- RadioFan ( talk) 14:09, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Should be featured prominently and mentioned in the lead. A bit from Hastingg: "Though pre-Islamatic Afghanistan has no real history, it is rich in legends of its origin. The best known of these traditions, to which allusion haa already been made in the preceding Article, is preserved in a Persian history of the Afghans by Ni'amat Allah [Ni'matullah] an author of the Itth ccntury... According to his account, the eponymous hero of the Afghans was Afghana ibn Irmia ibn Talut (Saul). Afghana himself was the conmander-in-chief of Solomon's army, and through his executive ability he was enabled to complete the Temple at Jerusalem. When, however, the Israelites were scattered abroad by Nebuchadnezza, Afghana and his children (numbering forty) were also dispersed; and some settled around Ghor and others near Mecca, where they remained for fifteen hundred years, obeying the Torah in all things." Dougweller ( talk) 18:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Afghana. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:37, 5 October 2016 (UTC)