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How can you tell the difference between Polish /tS/ and /t+S/ clusters?
Are there sound files for these? In the article, what're the f. and vertical line? lysdexia 15:16, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hi Vuo,
I'd left out 2ary articulations. Lots of languages have labialized, pharyngealized, etc. affricates. However, a "palatalized [tʃ]" in the IPA sense means a [tɕ], which is already covered. (Palatalized [ts] of course is another story) I'd prefer to remove your comment unless we have a clear contrast between [tʃʲ] and [tɕ]; even then it's likely that we'd have a phonemic [tʃ]-[j] cluster, and not coarticulated palatalization. Can you come up with an example of palatalized [ts] instead? Then I've got some interesting labialized affricates to add. kwami 19:21, 2005 August 12 (UTC)
[Because of a note in the history] Just to say that even if alveovelar is not (yet) a real world, alveovelar phones sure do exist!! Good phoneticians in several different languages did create the term, as it is very useful. Flofl. 08:48, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
What do you call the [ɫ] phone of portuguese? Alveovelar refers to a contoid articulated simultaneously in the alveolar and velar places. Similarly, the official IPA has [w] for the labial-velar approximant. Flofl. 11:34, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
An alveo-velar affricate is ks and gz. Macy 16;35, November 26, 2019 (UTC)
First, I removed:
pointing out that "postalveolar" and "palato-alveolar" are usually held to be synonyms (for example, palato-alveolar consonant redirects to postalveolar consonant, and the two terms are used synonymously on that page). Kwamikagami changed it to:
which is just confusing because the reader sees "postalveolar" but if he clicks on it he gets led to the page for "retroflex", not to the page for "postalveolar" (for which he would have to click on "palato-alveolar"). And anyway, [t̠s̠] and [d̠z̠] aren't retroflex either. The diacritic under them is the diacritic for retraction, so these symbols would have to stand for sounds made immediately behind the alveolar ridge; I doubt they are distinct from the alveolo-palatal affricates [t̠ɕ], [d̠ʑ]. I recommend we not have any piped links right here, and just have:
Second, I added:
noting that it is probably a hypothetical sound. Kwamikagami removed it, saying "Why add a hypothetical sound?" A fair enough question, but I don't think [ɢʁ] is any more hypothetical than [ɟʝ] or [ɡɣ], which are also already listed. I say, either all three hypothetical voiced dorsal affricates should be listed, or none. What say ye? -- Angr/ tɔk tə mi 14:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Are "trilled affricates" really affricates? I've only seen them referred to as "trill-released stops". -- Ptcamn 23:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
What? Surely postalveolar affricates and palatal stops are different enough to warrant separate notation. (E.g., they're different phonemes in Hungarian.) — Naddy 14:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know anything about this? Cameron Nedland 18:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
This topic could use a whole subsection. Mainly, on when they exist and when they don't. My understanding is that they by default aren't, unless there are specific reasons to consider them as such - so eg. tax and depth would not be applicable for affricate status - but I've never found a good treatise of the subject. Still, it keeps irking me whenever I hear the letter X described as an "affricate".-- Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 14:24, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Maybe there should be a disclaimer about "catch it"/"cat shit". I my dialect the final /t/ in "cat" is alveolar, although I think it also has a preceding glottal stop; but in any case it isn't completely reduced to a glottal stop. I think it's like that in a lot of 'lects. The vowels in "cat" and "catch" are also different, FWIW. Finally, I'm not sure of the phonology at work, but "cat shit" seems to have more of a pause between the /t/ and the /S/. 71.90.130.7 ( talk) 07:50, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Stop-fricative sequences may also have a syllable boundary between the two segments, syllable ??? word ???
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Affricates A stop and its immediately following release into a fricative that are considered to constitute a single phoneme (as the \t\ and \sh\ of \ch\ in choose) t+sh= ch ?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sweatshirt
sweatshirt
tsh is affricate or stop-fricative sequences?
[sweʔʃərt]? [swetʔʃərt]? [swet͡ʃərt̚]? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.145.72.70 ( talk) 17:38, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Honestly, could we have a more pleasant example phrase than "cat shit"?
I see 2-column lists of sounds, but no links to .ogg files. Also, shouldn't the 2 columns be reworked as a table?
Also, it would be clearer if the coronals were distinguished with the labels laminal, apical, and subapical (and possibly a fourth group ("laminal/apical"??) for those languages (e.g. English?) where the laminal/apical distinction is not made and doesn't confuse listeners, i.e., doesn't really matter. I think this would really help with "retroflex" &c. — Solo Owl ( talk) 19:12, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
According to Mandarin Chinese#Initials, voiceless bilabial-labiodental affricates (both unaspirated and aspirated) also exist in regional Mandarin dialects as regular regional variants of the retroflex affricates.
I also remember reading about voiceless velar affricates found in certain (northern?) English dialects. Scouse perhaps? Check Talk:Scouse#Evolution Or Affectation?.
According to Linguist List, Sotho-Tswana also has a voiceless velar or uvular affricate, and Sesotho phonology#Consonants confirms this at least for Sotho/Sesotho. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 22:15, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
In view of wikt:pfóltu, I wonder if Assan and possibly other Yeniseian languages might have them, too. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 06:45, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
ts and dz obviously exist in English as the simple combinations t+s and d+z (the latter usually spelled ts/tts and ds/dds, respectively, most often the result of adding the plural marker s or possessive 's or s' following a noun ending in t or d or having the third-person singular form for present-indicative verbs that end in t, tt, d, or dd. The scarce word adze of old origin and such domiciled and indispensable words as waltz and pizza clearly contain this affricate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pbrower2a ( talk • contribs) 01:30, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Why there is no single character -instead of two- for these consonants?
Is there an ongoing process for new characters for these sounds?-- 98.196.232.128 ( talk) 20:59, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
i think that the consonants kx and qχ deserve to get there own article. especially the consonants qχ because i find that many people are interested in that sound. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamsa123 ( talk • contribs) 19:06, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
d͡z and possibly b̪͡v are recorded as two-sound sequences, not as proper affricates. 176.221.120.207 ( talk) 20:41, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
I believe this article to meet the 6 B-class criteria: 1. The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations.
2. The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies.
3. The article has a defined structure.
4. The article is reasonably well-written.
5. The article contains supporting materials where appropriate.
6. The article presents its content in an appropriately understandable way.
I rated the article as High importance because it "is important to the field of linguistics. Many non-experts will have heard of the subject, but may not be familiar with it." While definitely not the most important thing in the field of linguistics, many non-experts will have heard of it such as undergrads in non-language related fields who take a linguistics class, anthropologists, some singers, and others. Wugapodes ( talk) 00:23, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Rather, the redirect is quite obvious, but why doesn't the word "affricatization" appear anywhere in the page if it redirects from there? I was hoping the article would shed some light on what it meant, but no such luck. 134.173.220.106 ( talk) 13:58, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
The table "trilled affricates" lists a "Voiceless dental bilabially trilled affricate". I've added a mention of that to "Heterorganic affricates". -- Thnidu ( talk) 15:38, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
I propose that Affrication be merged into Affricate consonant. I admit that I have little subject matter expertise, but to this layman, the "Affrication" article contains a simple stub of material that is already covered by "Affricate consonant". This merger, as proposed today, had previously been carried out nearly ten years ago. That status quo remained stable until this reversion about a month ago. An argument presented to justify the reversion was that the "Affricate consonant" article "doesn't even mention the term 'affrication'." I submit that perhaps this is an indicator of that term's relative encyclopedic significance. I think a simple section (paragraph) in the merger destination would suffice to cover this content, together with those recently-added references from the stub.
I recognize that "affrication" is a noun referring to a process – that being the conversion of a simple stop consonant into an affricate consonant – but I don't see that this stub article would ever grow into a distinct and meaningful encyclopedic article that is able to stand on its own. At present, it is little more than a dictionary entry, and per policy, " Wikipedia is not a dictionary."
Finally, for reasons that I raised in another discussion on this page, there is also a page entitled Affricatization, which is a redirect – from an incorrect name – that should also be included in this merge proposal. — grolltech( talk) 18:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Merged. Also added a section on pre-affrication. — kwami ( talk) 21:47, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Being a native speaker of Polish, and well acquainted with several Slavic languages I must say that calling the "c" sound (spelled "c" in all Slavic languages that use Roman alphabet, and "ц" in Cyrillic) is a stop, not a an affricate. The way this sound is produced is exactly the same as "t", only the place of articulation is different. The same apply to the sound spelled "cz", and to the voiced counterparts of the two consonants.
The rendering of these sounds by [ts] and [tʃ] in the IPA alphabet contributes further to the confusion. Each of those two consonants consist of only one element, not two as the affricate definition suggests. However, there is a combination of sounds, loke in the word "trzy" (three) that is pronounced in standard way as "t" + "sh" and I substandard way as "ch"+"sh". These can be called real affricates. -- Jidu Boite ( talk) 14:37, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
This article is full of wrong/misleading information, like "According to Kehrein, no language contrasts a non-sibilant, non-lateral affricate with a stop at the same place of articulation and with the same phonation and airstream mechanism, such as /t̪/ and /t̪θ/ or /k/ and /kx/," which I guess is not technically wrong since it's presented as "according to", but it's still not true. Most languages with /k͡x/ contrast it with with /k/, like Navajo and Swiss German, and every language I can think of with /p͡f/ contrasts it with /p/. Also, [qχ] contrasts with [q] sometimes, phonemically in Kabardian, but phonetically in a lot of languages with /qʰ/ like Burushaski (which also contrasts /p/ with /pʰ ~ p͡f ~ f/ like German contrasts /p/ and /p͡f/). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.173.58.2 ( talk) 20:50, October 9, 2015
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I noticed that in the article, there's no mention of the English "tr" and "dr" sounds (voiceless/voiced postalveolar labialized non-sibilant affricates), despite them being in the very language of the article. Is the fact that they are effectively non-phonemic (in as much as they could be pronounced [t͡ʃʷʰɹ̥] and [d͡ʒʷɹ̠] and still be perceived as the exact same sound) enough to ignore them? Or do they deserve a mention, both because of their rarity and their presence in the language of the article? Furthermore, those two links mention that for some people the affricate is alveolar, another unmentioned affricate. Is that worthy of note, too, or is that just being pedantic? Thank you. Blanket P.I. ( talk) 15:52, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Currently the article says: "The English affricate phonemes /t͡ʃ/ and /d͡ʒ/ are generally not at a morpheme boundary." It would be nice to have a citation for that, and also some explanation of why it's "generally" and not "always". I can think of a few things that might be considered counterexamples, like "Scotch" (historically a contracted form of "Scottish"), but that's original research so I can't put it in the article without a source. Does anybody know of one that mentions things like this? Urszag ( talk) 21:16, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Plosive consonant which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 20:16, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
The article Voiceless velar-bilabial affricate was created in March [1], but soon after, it got redirected to Jalapa Mazatec, apparently the only language where [kɸ] is attested.
My main question is then: is "velar-bilabial affricate" an actual thing, an acceptable term? I'm asking because I'm not much into phonetics, and the source cited in the original article ( https://www.jstor.org/stable/30028043?seq=14#metadata_info_tab_contents) doesn't describe the sound as an affricate (or in any other way really). All it does is give an example word transcribed as kΦæ1, with the understanding that this kΦ thing is an allophone of the aspirated labialised velar.
If describing this as an affricate is correct, then we should ideally add a mention of it to Affricate#Heterorganic affricates and retarget the redirect there (for readers, it would be a much more useful destination than the current target, which is the middle of a long paragraph about Mazatec phonology). If, on the other hand, this is not an affricate, then we'd need to get rid of the redirect. – Uanfala (talk) 13:49, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
Ping to the creator of the article. – Uanfala (talk) 13:50, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
Currently, the article contains text like “The English affricate phonemes /t͡ʃ/ and /d͡ʒ/ ...”. But is there any case in which the distinction of these from /tʃ/ resp. /dʒ/ is phonemic in English? (Given that even our example resorts to [ʔʃ], rather than simply [tʃ], that seems rather unlikely.) If not, then I'd say we should leave out the ties, just as we leave out the superscript h in /pin/.
Sebastian
12:29, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
Correction: In the cited example, [ʔʃ] stands for /tʃ/ in the given context and dialect. Thus, we do have an example in English. With this, my question should be modified to ... “for the phonemes of English standard accents?” ◅
Sebastian
12:49, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
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How can you tell the difference between Polish /tS/ and /t+S/ clusters?
Are there sound files for these? In the article, what're the f. and vertical line? lysdexia 15:16, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hi Vuo,
I'd left out 2ary articulations. Lots of languages have labialized, pharyngealized, etc. affricates. However, a "palatalized [tʃ]" in the IPA sense means a [tɕ], which is already covered. (Palatalized [ts] of course is another story) I'd prefer to remove your comment unless we have a clear contrast between [tʃʲ] and [tɕ]; even then it's likely that we'd have a phonemic [tʃ]-[j] cluster, and not coarticulated palatalization. Can you come up with an example of palatalized [ts] instead? Then I've got some interesting labialized affricates to add. kwami 19:21, 2005 August 12 (UTC)
[Because of a note in the history] Just to say that even if alveovelar is not (yet) a real world, alveovelar phones sure do exist!! Good phoneticians in several different languages did create the term, as it is very useful. Flofl. 08:48, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
What do you call the [ɫ] phone of portuguese? Alveovelar refers to a contoid articulated simultaneously in the alveolar and velar places. Similarly, the official IPA has [w] for the labial-velar approximant. Flofl. 11:34, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
An alveo-velar affricate is ks and gz. Macy 16;35, November 26, 2019 (UTC)
First, I removed:
pointing out that "postalveolar" and "palato-alveolar" are usually held to be synonyms (for example, palato-alveolar consonant redirects to postalveolar consonant, and the two terms are used synonymously on that page). Kwamikagami changed it to:
which is just confusing because the reader sees "postalveolar" but if he clicks on it he gets led to the page for "retroflex", not to the page for "postalveolar" (for which he would have to click on "palato-alveolar"). And anyway, [t̠s̠] and [d̠z̠] aren't retroflex either. The diacritic under them is the diacritic for retraction, so these symbols would have to stand for sounds made immediately behind the alveolar ridge; I doubt they are distinct from the alveolo-palatal affricates [t̠ɕ], [d̠ʑ]. I recommend we not have any piped links right here, and just have:
Second, I added:
noting that it is probably a hypothetical sound. Kwamikagami removed it, saying "Why add a hypothetical sound?" A fair enough question, but I don't think [ɢʁ] is any more hypothetical than [ɟʝ] or [ɡɣ], which are also already listed. I say, either all three hypothetical voiced dorsal affricates should be listed, or none. What say ye? -- Angr/ tɔk tə mi 14:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Are "trilled affricates" really affricates? I've only seen them referred to as "trill-released stops". -- Ptcamn 23:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
What? Surely postalveolar affricates and palatal stops are different enough to warrant separate notation. (E.g., they're different phonemes in Hungarian.) — Naddy 14:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know anything about this? Cameron Nedland 18:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
This topic could use a whole subsection. Mainly, on when they exist and when they don't. My understanding is that they by default aren't, unless there are specific reasons to consider them as such - so eg. tax and depth would not be applicable for affricate status - but I've never found a good treatise of the subject. Still, it keeps irking me whenever I hear the letter X described as an "affricate".-- Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 14:24, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Maybe there should be a disclaimer about "catch it"/"cat shit". I my dialect the final /t/ in "cat" is alveolar, although I think it also has a preceding glottal stop; but in any case it isn't completely reduced to a glottal stop. I think it's like that in a lot of 'lects. The vowels in "cat" and "catch" are also different, FWIW. Finally, I'm not sure of the phonology at work, but "cat shit" seems to have more of a pause between the /t/ and the /S/. 71.90.130.7 ( talk) 07:50, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Stop-fricative sequences may also have a syllable boundary between the two segments, syllable ??? word ???
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Affricates A stop and its immediately following release into a fricative that are considered to constitute a single phoneme (as the \t\ and \sh\ of \ch\ in choose) t+sh= ch ?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sweatshirt
sweatshirt
tsh is affricate or stop-fricative sequences?
[sweʔʃərt]? [swetʔʃərt]? [swet͡ʃərt̚]? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.145.72.70 ( talk) 17:38, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Honestly, could we have a more pleasant example phrase than "cat shit"?
I see 2-column lists of sounds, but no links to .ogg files. Also, shouldn't the 2 columns be reworked as a table?
Also, it would be clearer if the coronals were distinguished with the labels laminal, apical, and subapical (and possibly a fourth group ("laminal/apical"??) for those languages (e.g. English?) where the laminal/apical distinction is not made and doesn't confuse listeners, i.e., doesn't really matter. I think this would really help with "retroflex" &c. — Solo Owl ( talk) 19:12, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
According to Mandarin Chinese#Initials, voiceless bilabial-labiodental affricates (both unaspirated and aspirated) also exist in regional Mandarin dialects as regular regional variants of the retroflex affricates.
I also remember reading about voiceless velar affricates found in certain (northern?) English dialects. Scouse perhaps? Check Talk:Scouse#Evolution Or Affectation?.
According to Linguist List, Sotho-Tswana also has a voiceless velar or uvular affricate, and Sesotho phonology#Consonants confirms this at least for Sotho/Sesotho. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 22:15, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
In view of wikt:pfóltu, I wonder if Assan and possibly other Yeniseian languages might have them, too. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 06:45, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
ts and dz obviously exist in English as the simple combinations t+s and d+z (the latter usually spelled ts/tts and ds/dds, respectively, most often the result of adding the plural marker s or possessive 's or s' following a noun ending in t or d or having the third-person singular form for present-indicative verbs that end in t, tt, d, or dd. The scarce word adze of old origin and such domiciled and indispensable words as waltz and pizza clearly contain this affricate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pbrower2a ( talk • contribs) 01:30, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Why there is no single character -instead of two- for these consonants?
Is there an ongoing process for new characters for these sounds?-- 98.196.232.128 ( talk) 20:59, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
i think that the consonants kx and qχ deserve to get there own article. especially the consonants qχ because i find that many people are interested in that sound. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamsa123 ( talk • contribs) 19:06, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
d͡z and possibly b̪͡v are recorded as two-sound sequences, not as proper affricates. 176.221.120.207 ( talk) 20:41, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
I believe this article to meet the 6 B-class criteria: 1. The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations.
2. The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies.
3. The article has a defined structure.
4. The article is reasonably well-written.
5. The article contains supporting materials where appropriate.
6. The article presents its content in an appropriately understandable way.
I rated the article as High importance because it "is important to the field of linguistics. Many non-experts will have heard of the subject, but may not be familiar with it." While definitely not the most important thing in the field of linguistics, many non-experts will have heard of it such as undergrads in non-language related fields who take a linguistics class, anthropologists, some singers, and others. Wugapodes ( talk) 00:23, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Rather, the redirect is quite obvious, but why doesn't the word "affricatization" appear anywhere in the page if it redirects from there? I was hoping the article would shed some light on what it meant, but no such luck. 134.173.220.106 ( talk) 13:58, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
The table "trilled affricates" lists a "Voiceless dental bilabially trilled affricate". I've added a mention of that to "Heterorganic affricates". -- Thnidu ( talk) 15:38, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
I propose that Affrication be merged into Affricate consonant. I admit that I have little subject matter expertise, but to this layman, the "Affrication" article contains a simple stub of material that is already covered by "Affricate consonant". This merger, as proposed today, had previously been carried out nearly ten years ago. That status quo remained stable until this reversion about a month ago. An argument presented to justify the reversion was that the "Affricate consonant" article "doesn't even mention the term 'affrication'." I submit that perhaps this is an indicator of that term's relative encyclopedic significance. I think a simple section (paragraph) in the merger destination would suffice to cover this content, together with those recently-added references from the stub.
I recognize that "affrication" is a noun referring to a process – that being the conversion of a simple stop consonant into an affricate consonant – but I don't see that this stub article would ever grow into a distinct and meaningful encyclopedic article that is able to stand on its own. At present, it is little more than a dictionary entry, and per policy, " Wikipedia is not a dictionary."
Finally, for reasons that I raised in another discussion on this page, there is also a page entitled Affricatization, which is a redirect – from an incorrect name – that should also be included in this merge proposal. — grolltech( talk) 18:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Merged. Also added a section on pre-affrication. — kwami ( talk) 21:47, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Being a native speaker of Polish, and well acquainted with several Slavic languages I must say that calling the "c" sound (spelled "c" in all Slavic languages that use Roman alphabet, and "ц" in Cyrillic) is a stop, not a an affricate. The way this sound is produced is exactly the same as "t", only the place of articulation is different. The same apply to the sound spelled "cz", and to the voiced counterparts of the two consonants.
The rendering of these sounds by [ts] and [tʃ] in the IPA alphabet contributes further to the confusion. Each of those two consonants consist of only one element, not two as the affricate definition suggests. However, there is a combination of sounds, loke in the word "trzy" (three) that is pronounced in standard way as "t" + "sh" and I substandard way as "ch"+"sh". These can be called real affricates. -- Jidu Boite ( talk) 14:37, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
This article is full of wrong/misleading information, like "According to Kehrein, no language contrasts a non-sibilant, non-lateral affricate with a stop at the same place of articulation and with the same phonation and airstream mechanism, such as /t̪/ and /t̪θ/ or /k/ and /kx/," which I guess is not technically wrong since it's presented as "according to", but it's still not true. Most languages with /k͡x/ contrast it with with /k/, like Navajo and Swiss German, and every language I can think of with /p͡f/ contrasts it with /p/. Also, [qχ] contrasts with [q] sometimes, phonemically in Kabardian, but phonetically in a lot of languages with /qʰ/ like Burushaski (which also contrasts /p/ with /pʰ ~ p͡f ~ f/ like German contrasts /p/ and /p͡f/). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.173.58.2 ( talk) 20:50, October 9, 2015
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I noticed that in the article, there's no mention of the English "tr" and "dr" sounds (voiceless/voiced postalveolar labialized non-sibilant affricates), despite them being in the very language of the article. Is the fact that they are effectively non-phonemic (in as much as they could be pronounced [t͡ʃʷʰɹ̥] and [d͡ʒʷɹ̠] and still be perceived as the exact same sound) enough to ignore them? Or do they deserve a mention, both because of their rarity and their presence in the language of the article? Furthermore, those two links mention that for some people the affricate is alveolar, another unmentioned affricate. Is that worthy of note, too, or is that just being pedantic? Thank you. Blanket P.I. ( talk) 15:52, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Currently the article says: "The English affricate phonemes /t͡ʃ/ and /d͡ʒ/ are generally not at a morpheme boundary." It would be nice to have a citation for that, and also some explanation of why it's "generally" and not "always". I can think of a few things that might be considered counterexamples, like "Scotch" (historically a contracted form of "Scottish"), but that's original research so I can't put it in the article without a source. Does anybody know of one that mentions things like this? Urszag ( talk) 21:16, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Plosive consonant which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 20:16, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
The article Voiceless velar-bilabial affricate was created in March [1], but soon after, it got redirected to Jalapa Mazatec, apparently the only language where [kɸ] is attested.
My main question is then: is "velar-bilabial affricate" an actual thing, an acceptable term? I'm asking because I'm not much into phonetics, and the source cited in the original article ( https://www.jstor.org/stable/30028043?seq=14#metadata_info_tab_contents) doesn't describe the sound as an affricate (or in any other way really). All it does is give an example word transcribed as kΦæ1, with the understanding that this kΦ thing is an allophone of the aspirated labialised velar.
If describing this as an affricate is correct, then we should ideally add a mention of it to Affricate#Heterorganic affricates and retarget the redirect there (for readers, it would be a much more useful destination than the current target, which is the middle of a long paragraph about Mazatec phonology). If, on the other hand, this is not an affricate, then we'd need to get rid of the redirect. – Uanfala (talk) 13:49, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
Ping to the creator of the article. – Uanfala (talk) 13:50, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
Currently, the article contains text like “The English affricate phonemes /t͡ʃ/ and /d͡ʒ/ ...”. But is there any case in which the distinction of these from /tʃ/ resp. /dʒ/ is phonemic in English? (Given that even our example resorts to [ʔʃ], rather than simply [tʃ], that seems rather unlikely.) If not, then I'd say we should leave out the ties, just as we leave out the superscript h in /pin/.
Sebastian
12:29, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
Correction: In the cited example, [ʔʃ] stands for /tʃ/ in the given context and dialect. Thus, we do have an example in English. With this, my question should be modified to ... “for the phonemes of English standard accents?” ◅
Sebastian
12:49, 6 July 2023 (UTC)