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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
All this back-and-forth about the "Threats of violence" and "Legal challenges" raises an important question: can we come to consensus of the scope and purpose of this article?
I don't mean to overstate the obvious, but I think some contributors to the article are losing sight of the fact that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as amended by the "reconciliation bill" signed by the President today, is now the law of the land. Let me say that again: IT IS NOW THE LAW OF THE LAND.
In fact, it is the law of the land:
Simply put, further debate about the pros and cons of this law is moot at this point. Because of that, I would argue that none of the information currently in the "Impacts" section even belongs in this article. I'm a bit agnostic about whether the "Legal challenges" section belongs here at all, but I believe strongly that arguments for and against the legal challenges don't belong here.
We can link to all those others article in this article. But, please, stop writing ad nauseum about these topics in this article. This article should focus primarily on what is in the law - along with, yes, of course, the current brief intro... and, yes, I suppose, a brief discussion of legal challenges.
Thanks. -- MeatheadMathlete ( talk) 03:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
As per WP:FACR, an article must "neglect no major facts or details"—and the scope of this article should presumably be similar to that of other major U.S. legislation, such as the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, Civil Rights Act of 1968, National Industrial Recovery Act, and No Child Left Behind Act. Overall, it seems likely that we can all agree on the necessity of improving comprehensiveness while retaining all (albeit less detailed) relevant facts. — C M B J 19:49, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
A major item of controversy and concern for many Americans is the relationship of the bill to abortion. It would be good to have a clear, well-sourced subsection of the Provisions section explaining what the bill does and does not do in this regard. Right now, the only mention we have of the issue is in regards to the political deals involved in the bill's passage, which doesn't really address the issue directly or inform readers who want to know precisely what the bill means (or doesn't mean) for the abortion issue.
For example, the article needs to explain how exactly coverage for abortions is segregated from federal funding in the exchanges, the requirement that the exchanges contain plans that do not cover abortions as well as those that do, the relationship to the Hyde amendment, and the various other special abortion-related provisions in the bill (of which there were several last I checked).
As a first step, it would be good to collect a few reputable secondary sources on the abortion provisions of the bill. e.g. this PolitiFact article or this one or this CNN article.
There are also many pro-life criticisms of the bill on abortion grounds; because of the prominence of many of these criticisms, it seems clear that they should be neutrally presented as well in the article (balanced in some cases by sources like PolitiFact that offer a counter-analysis of the bill's provisions); e.g. here or here.
— Steven G. Johnson ( talk) 04:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
The section "Challenges by private organizations" alleges that Liberty University filed suit against provisions of this bill, but the citation given is not valid. The citation as it currently exists in the article is:
but the actual article at the link is titled "Wyden: Health Care Lawsuits Moot, States Can Opt Out Of Mandate" and does not mention Liberty University at all. Additionally, a quick search of Huffington Post failed to yield any article by the title "Liberty counsel files health care reform bill lawsuit" nor any article specifically about a lawsuit by Liberty University filed in 2010 against this bill. This citation needs to be adjusted to match the correct article, if it exists, or removed (along with the associated claim) if it does not.— Kbolino ( talk) 08:36, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
What if you refuse to pay the fine? Like flat out refuse to buy insurance, pay the fine or anything else. Will they throw you in jail for not being financially responsible —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.162.95.189 ( talk) 13:38, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
It is my understanding that significant portions of this legislation are based on ideas originally proposed by Republicans. Is this true and what is the history behind the ideas incorporated into this legislation?
I think this should be in the article:
On March 24, 2010, the Senate voted 57-42 to reject an amendment proposed by Senator Tom Coburn (R-Oklahoma) which would have prevented federal funding from being used to pay for Viagra for convicted rapists and child molesters. [1] Source -- Captain Lance Murdoch ( talk) 13:56, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Jake Tapper has reported on a revised cost estimate by the CBO. Any ideas of how and where to add it? †TE† Talk 20:22, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
There's a lot of talk of the new 1099 reporting requirements recently. Seems like we should expand this section.
From what I've read, the real change right now is that if you spend more than $600 someplace, and it isn't exempted on the 1099 IRS form, you submit a 1099. However, the IRS can change what is/is not exempted before 2012.
Seems like this section should be given a little more love :) desk003 ( talk) 17:09, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Why are Harry Reid's comments about the act even in this article? He is no expert on finances, and there are no conservative's opinions expressly written in here. I think the proper thing to do is either remove Reid's comments or add a viewpoint from someone on the opposite side of the fence...for impartiality's sake JahnTeller07 ( talk) 18:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
It would be interesting to have more analysis on what emerged from bipartisan discussion and what Republican proposals were actually implemented in response to their concerns. I noticed one article ( The six Republican ideas already in the health-care reform bill) but it doesn't seem quite detailed enough. I may try to work on this later. I'm not sure about Ezra's analysis of (2) and (4) at the moment. II | ( t - c) 08:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
"However, these claims are called in to question by some as grossly inaccurate." The source cited does not say "grossly inaccurate". Rather, it says the claim relies on "iffy math", a claim disputed by the administration. Balance? - SummerPhD ( talk) 17:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
However, these claims are called in to question by some as grossly inaccurate. [2]
Read what I just wrote...that's exactly what the article says. Give me one good reason not to include it JahnTeller07 ( talk) 19:26, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
This information may be superfluous in the summary/introduction of the article. It would probably fit much better in the body of the article and thus shorten the introduction. Myownworst ( talk) 07:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Someone should please explain how the bill affects birth control coverage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.91.51.140 ( talk) 05:13, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
The new Medicare taxes take effect in 2013, not 2014 ~ http://medicare.org/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/medicare-blog/1-latest/249-new-medicare-related-taxes-in-2013 Myownworst ( talk) 21:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Why was my edit deleted? In terms of impact on the 2010 election cycle, several House democrats have run political ads highlighting their "no" votes on the bill, while there have not been any political ads highlighting a "yes" vote since April, when Harry Reid ran one. [3] Under the public opinion impact section (or whatever it was called)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BHOisterrible10 ( talk • contribs) 18:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Hey guys, I read through the Massachusetts health care reform article the other day, and it's not in very good shape. Just wanted to mention it, in case any of you are interested. You're help would be invaluable.-- Dark Charles ( talk) 22:43, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
Isn't there some provision on lifetime maximums? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.20.119.241 ( talk) 12:24, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Why are there no references to deem-and-pass, also known as the Slaughter Solution?
Link 41, linking to the part of the act referring to dependents under 26 is dead. Can someone find another link? 12.172.67.7 ( talk) 17:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I added a paragraph on the recent federal court ruling dismissing a suit by Michigan's Thomas More Law Center. Initially, I included this at the end of the State Challenges section, where it fit rather nicely. Then I saw the section on Private Challenges, so based on the header, my addition would belong there. When I moved it, I noticed the existing text mentioned the Thomas More suit. I could carpet the two together but wanted feedback on the following:
Best, I think, would be to name the main section Legal Issues, change State Challenges to Court Challenges and drop the Private Challenges subsection (which if retained, should be second and not last). Then there won't be any confusion over private suits mixed in with the state-initiated cases. As for the More/Liberty paragraph itself, I believe it lacks notability and general substance (by just highlighting religious issues). No other suit gets this much attention, nor is there room for detailing all the suits. Feedback? Thanks. Allreet ( talk) 19:35, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
I renamed and re-did the section, focusing on recent federal court rulings. I did so expecting subsequent rulings to be added. Eventually, as more develops on the legal front, much of this will need to be re-worked. For now, it provides information on the latest developments. I decided to drop the Liberty University information, as well as the original Thomas More material, based on notability, plus the material had become somewhat dated. Allreet ( talk) 05:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
I took a shot at cleaning up this section, then became concerned about the use of cites and information. One citation, for example, was to a blog, an opinion column by a newspaper reporter. I've removed the quote from the column as unreliable and violating NPOV. Also, the NY Times quote from the White House official, though legitimate, appears to be somewhat out of context and extraneous. It's not quite a non sequitor, but in my opinion, it was dropped in, as was other material, to make a political point. In addition, other statements were worded to color the situation as more negative than what the sources indicate. Please compare my changes with what was here, and let me know what you think. I'd like to re-work the section, including adding and straightening out details and bringing in a couple other sources. Thanks. Allreet ( talk) 06:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
There should be a section discussing how this will effect what a typical person will pay for healthcare. It should compare cost before the program and after.( Mil112 ( talk) 15:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC))
The article addresses individual and busines impact, but seems to leave out the policy impact.
Reinsurance Community Health Centers Community Mental Health Centers Reducing Fraud, Waste, and Abuse Title IV. Prevention of Chronic Disease and Improving Public Health Title V. Health Care Workforce Investing in Primary Care Increasing the Supply of Primary Care Providers in Underserved Communities Increasing the Supply of Nurses Strengthening the Public Health Workforce Innovations in Health Care Workforce Planning Supporting the Next Generation of Health Professionals Expanding Community Health Centers Title VI. Transparency and Program Integrity Title VII. Improving Access to Innovative Medical Therapies Title VIII. Community Living Assistance Services and Supports Act (CLASS Act) -- Annestacia ( talk) 17:52, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Good point. Go add them then!-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 19:36, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
We have a section in the article dedicated to the impact of the bill (i.e. the legal changes and rhe financial aspect of the bill). But included in this is a further subsection called Threats of Violence which is really out of place because it is talking about threats made to members of Congress as intimidation, presumably to make them vote in a different way to the way they might otherwise have voted.
This text surely does not belong in the "impact" section and given that the article now is really about a piece of passed legislation and not its complicated birth pangs, I feel inclined to delete the section and replace it with a reference to intimidation during passage in the "politics" section. -- Hauskalainen ( talk) 15:42, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I added CBO numbers and quotations, but Hauskalainen deleted them. [3] Obviously I disagree with the deletion and especially the edit summary (HK deleted the final numbers but summarized by saying only the final numbers - which HK had deleted - matter), and long experience has taught me that discussion with Hauskalainen never leads to agreement, but I would like to hear from other editors on this before escalating it to a different forum. TVC 15 ( talk) 21:41, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
The new law contains the word "mandate" in several places but these all relate to the coverage that health insurance companies must satisfy to meet the minimum coverage standards. This is legally correct. A mandate is an order to do something. An insurance company cannot claim that a policy meets the standards under the law if it does not meet these mandated standards. If it does so, it is in breach of a mandate. This is simply not so with the tax imposed on people who opt not to have health insurance. People who do not have coverage may be exempt from the tax or they may be covered by the tax. Being declared liable to pay a tax does not mean you have broken the law because having insurance is not a mandate. The situation is similar to the law in Virginia regarding third party liability insurance for auto insurance. There is no third party liability motor insurance mandate, but a person who has neither bought insurance nor placed a bail bond with the DMV surety has to pay a tax of $500 a year. The tax is an incentive to do something which some people might otherwise not do. Just as special taxes on cigarettes in Europe are an incentive to give up smoking. There is no "mandate" forbidding smoking, and there will be no mandate in the USA forbidding people not to have health insurance.
Clearly what has happened is that certain politicians have labeled this "a mandate" when it really is not. The press in the USA it seems has been lazy and has been calling it what some politicians have called it. Clearly this has been done for political reasons. I read through the judgment in the Virgina case recently and the judge did not at any time refer to the requirement to have insurance OR pay a fine as a "mandate". There simply is not a mandate. So the next question has to be whether we reflect, uncritically, what the press has been saying, or whether we reflect reality. My preference is to reflect reality and refer to what the law calls it, which is a tax on those who are insured. That section of the law has a preamble which makes it perfectly plain that the law makers were imposing this tax because being uninsured adds costs onto the rest of the community as reflected in higher prices on insured persons today and on the government which pays a price for uncompensated care. The article should not use the term "mandate" without putting it in quotation marks and explaining why it is not really a mandate. It would be appropriate for that to happen once in the article and all references thereafter should be to the tax on uninsured persons and not to "individual mandate" or "mandate". For this reason I reverted a simple usage of the term without a proper explanation. -- Hauskalainen ( talk) 00:20, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
First off, Haus, quit assuming bad faith. It's unfortunate for you that in this instance WP policy is in opposition to your stance. No need to take it out on me, however: don't shoot the messenger as it only make YOU look bad. Secondly, I would suggest you go read the judgments handed down. They explain a lot about why it's not a tax, and in some instances cite cases going back over 100 years. I'm just as happy as you to call it a penalty, just not a tax penalty. The court opinions, recalling off the top of my head, made statements to the effect that it is actually a regulatory penalty in its structure (which only returns the point at issue to the conflict over whether it is actually a valid exercise of the Interstate Commerce Clause in conjunction with the Necessary and Proper Clause), but I'd stick with the language of the act, which is simply penalty. Thirdly, this is the crux of your problem: find an independent and reliable third-party source ( WP:RS and WP:VER) that make the characterization you are making, else you are engaging in original research ( WP:OR) and information synthesis ( WP:SYNTH), both being against WP policy. Until then, it needs to remain as individual mandate since that is what the source given has called it. Now, go out and actually do the work before making unilateral changes apparently based only on what you think but for which you haven't provided any cites. Peace out. -- Foofighter20x ( talk) 16:26, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) @( talk) Of course, the law has been designed to give people every encouragement to get insured (i.e. widening Medicaid eligibility for the very poor, subsidies for those on higher incomes, and the choice of a legally unenforceable penalty for choosing not being insured). I have no doubt that some will argue (as you do) that it is not a choice at all. The choice may be limited but it is not a Hobson's choice. What we have here is this
The press and some politicians thus use the term "individual mandate" because calling it "a mandate on those without insurance to get insured with a free opt-out (for some) and an opt-out at the cost of a fine (or none if you choose not to pay the fine) for everyone else" at every usage would be untenable. That is perhaps fine in the United States where the new usage may be understood. But Wikipedia is read worldwide. Wikipedia should not use colloquial English but should explain the individual mandate fully and then use it thereafter in quotation marks. That is all that I am suggesting. Our job as editors is to explain and not to deceive.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 13:13, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
New editor, but a long-time tax pro. The Child Tax Credit is not refundable, though the Additional Child Tax Credit is. A better example is the Earned Income Credit. Changing on article next. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spaghettus1 ( talk • contribs) 07:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I have removed "The Congressional Budget Office estimated that the new law as amended would reduce the federal deficit by $143 billion over the first decade and in the decade after that by an amount equivalent in a broad range between one quarter percent and one-half percent of GDP. [4]" From the introduction because it does not belong there. If you want to add it to the section on IMPACT then do so.-- The Trucker ( talk) 02:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
The introduction has been badly damaged. There is information about the public option and "free market prevailing" in the introduction which not only compromises the neutrality of the article, but if anything should be in the body of the article. I urge immediate changes to this. Myownworst ( talk) 21:42, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be a continued attempt to downplay the requirements that people are required to have a federally approved health insurance policy. There also appears to be a strong effort to remove any mention of the word mandate or try to imply that there really is no mandate. The time for wordsmithing what this law requires needs to end. Arzel ( talk) 18:24, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
@ Arzel. Where has anyone added text which "downplays" the issue? I added a reference to it in the lede and to the main changes in the law. I would say though that there is no "mandate" to have Federally approved health insurance because there are several examples of alternatives NOT to have federally approved health insurance. One legal way to avoid it is to pay the penalty. If we explain why the fine exists, and what the other alternatives are, how can this be "playing down" the issue? Surely it is explaining the issue.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 22:20, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
The individual mandate (or tax for not buying something, whatever you want to call it) is so crucial to this legislation yet that does not really come out the way the article is currently structured. It could do a better job of that. For example, without the individual mandate, insurers cannot realistically be required to accept pre-existing conditions. Yet the pre-existing conditions provision is mentioned way before any mention of the individual mandate.
That's just one example, don't you think the entire article could use an overhaul, though?
Along the same lines, just about all of the constitutional challenges in court right now are around the individual mandate as well, and as mentioned before, if that fails, most of the entire law fails. It's a huge deal but that's not very apparent from this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.149.81.190 ( talk) 19:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Myownworst ( talk) 03:41, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
All this back-and-forth about the "Threats of violence" and "Legal challenges" raises an important question: can we come to consensus of the scope and purpose of this article?
I don't mean to overstate the obvious, but I think some contributors to the article are losing sight of the fact that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as amended by the "reconciliation bill" signed by the President today, is now the law of the land. Let me say that again: IT IS NOW THE LAW OF THE LAND.
In fact, it is the law of the land:
Simply put, further debate about the pros and cons of this law is moot at this point. Because of that, I would argue that none of the information currently in the "Impacts" section even belongs in this article. I'm a bit agnostic about whether the "Legal challenges" section belongs here at all, but I believe strongly that arguments for and against the legal challenges don't belong here.
We can link to all those others article in this article. But, please, stop writing ad nauseum about these topics in this article. This article should focus primarily on what is in the law - along with, yes, of course, the current brief intro... and, yes, I suppose, a brief discussion of legal challenges.
Thanks. -- MeatheadMathlete ( talk) 03:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
As per WP:FACR, an article must "neglect no major facts or details"—and the scope of this article should presumably be similar to that of other major U.S. legislation, such as the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, Civil Rights Act of 1968, National Industrial Recovery Act, and No Child Left Behind Act. Overall, it seems likely that we can all agree on the necessity of improving comprehensiveness while retaining all (albeit less detailed) relevant facts. — C M B J 19:49, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
A major item of controversy and concern for many Americans is the relationship of the bill to abortion. It would be good to have a clear, well-sourced subsection of the Provisions section explaining what the bill does and does not do in this regard. Right now, the only mention we have of the issue is in regards to the political deals involved in the bill's passage, which doesn't really address the issue directly or inform readers who want to know precisely what the bill means (or doesn't mean) for the abortion issue.
For example, the article needs to explain how exactly coverage for abortions is segregated from federal funding in the exchanges, the requirement that the exchanges contain plans that do not cover abortions as well as those that do, the relationship to the Hyde amendment, and the various other special abortion-related provisions in the bill (of which there were several last I checked).
As a first step, it would be good to collect a few reputable secondary sources on the abortion provisions of the bill. e.g. this PolitiFact article or this one or this CNN article.
There are also many pro-life criticisms of the bill on abortion grounds; because of the prominence of many of these criticisms, it seems clear that they should be neutrally presented as well in the article (balanced in some cases by sources like PolitiFact that offer a counter-analysis of the bill's provisions); e.g. here or here.
— Steven G. Johnson ( talk) 04:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
The section "Challenges by private organizations" alleges that Liberty University filed suit against provisions of this bill, but the citation given is not valid. The citation as it currently exists in the article is:
but the actual article at the link is titled "Wyden: Health Care Lawsuits Moot, States Can Opt Out Of Mandate" and does not mention Liberty University at all. Additionally, a quick search of Huffington Post failed to yield any article by the title "Liberty counsel files health care reform bill lawsuit" nor any article specifically about a lawsuit by Liberty University filed in 2010 against this bill. This citation needs to be adjusted to match the correct article, if it exists, or removed (along with the associated claim) if it does not.— Kbolino ( talk) 08:36, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
What if you refuse to pay the fine? Like flat out refuse to buy insurance, pay the fine or anything else. Will they throw you in jail for not being financially responsible —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.162.95.189 ( talk) 13:38, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
It is my understanding that significant portions of this legislation are based on ideas originally proposed by Republicans. Is this true and what is the history behind the ideas incorporated into this legislation?
I think this should be in the article:
On March 24, 2010, the Senate voted 57-42 to reject an amendment proposed by Senator Tom Coburn (R-Oklahoma) which would have prevented federal funding from being used to pay for Viagra for convicted rapists and child molesters. [1] Source -- Captain Lance Murdoch ( talk) 13:56, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Jake Tapper has reported on a revised cost estimate by the CBO. Any ideas of how and where to add it? †TE† Talk 20:22, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
There's a lot of talk of the new 1099 reporting requirements recently. Seems like we should expand this section.
From what I've read, the real change right now is that if you spend more than $600 someplace, and it isn't exempted on the 1099 IRS form, you submit a 1099. However, the IRS can change what is/is not exempted before 2012.
Seems like this section should be given a little more love :) desk003 ( talk) 17:09, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Why are Harry Reid's comments about the act even in this article? He is no expert on finances, and there are no conservative's opinions expressly written in here. I think the proper thing to do is either remove Reid's comments or add a viewpoint from someone on the opposite side of the fence...for impartiality's sake JahnTeller07 ( talk) 18:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
It would be interesting to have more analysis on what emerged from bipartisan discussion and what Republican proposals were actually implemented in response to their concerns. I noticed one article ( The six Republican ideas already in the health-care reform bill) but it doesn't seem quite detailed enough. I may try to work on this later. I'm not sure about Ezra's analysis of (2) and (4) at the moment. II | ( t - c) 08:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
"However, these claims are called in to question by some as grossly inaccurate." The source cited does not say "grossly inaccurate". Rather, it says the claim relies on "iffy math", a claim disputed by the administration. Balance? - SummerPhD ( talk) 17:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
However, these claims are called in to question by some as grossly inaccurate. [2]
Read what I just wrote...that's exactly what the article says. Give me one good reason not to include it JahnTeller07 ( talk) 19:26, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
This information may be superfluous in the summary/introduction of the article. It would probably fit much better in the body of the article and thus shorten the introduction. Myownworst ( talk) 07:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Someone should please explain how the bill affects birth control coverage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.91.51.140 ( talk) 05:13, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
The new Medicare taxes take effect in 2013, not 2014 ~ http://medicare.org/index.php/home-mainmenu-1/medicare-blog/1-latest/249-new-medicare-related-taxes-in-2013 Myownworst ( talk) 21:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Why was my edit deleted? In terms of impact on the 2010 election cycle, several House democrats have run political ads highlighting their "no" votes on the bill, while there have not been any political ads highlighting a "yes" vote since April, when Harry Reid ran one. [3] Under the public opinion impact section (or whatever it was called)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BHOisterrible10 ( talk • contribs) 18:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Hey guys, I read through the Massachusetts health care reform article the other day, and it's not in very good shape. Just wanted to mention it, in case any of you are interested. You're help would be invaluable.-- Dark Charles ( talk) 22:43, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
Isn't there some provision on lifetime maximums? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.20.119.241 ( talk) 12:24, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Why are there no references to deem-and-pass, also known as the Slaughter Solution?
Link 41, linking to the part of the act referring to dependents under 26 is dead. Can someone find another link? 12.172.67.7 ( talk) 17:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I added a paragraph on the recent federal court ruling dismissing a suit by Michigan's Thomas More Law Center. Initially, I included this at the end of the State Challenges section, where it fit rather nicely. Then I saw the section on Private Challenges, so based on the header, my addition would belong there. When I moved it, I noticed the existing text mentioned the Thomas More suit. I could carpet the two together but wanted feedback on the following:
Best, I think, would be to name the main section Legal Issues, change State Challenges to Court Challenges and drop the Private Challenges subsection (which if retained, should be second and not last). Then there won't be any confusion over private suits mixed in with the state-initiated cases. As for the More/Liberty paragraph itself, I believe it lacks notability and general substance (by just highlighting religious issues). No other suit gets this much attention, nor is there room for detailing all the suits. Feedback? Thanks. Allreet ( talk) 19:35, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
I renamed and re-did the section, focusing on recent federal court rulings. I did so expecting subsequent rulings to be added. Eventually, as more develops on the legal front, much of this will need to be re-worked. For now, it provides information on the latest developments. I decided to drop the Liberty University information, as well as the original Thomas More material, based on notability, plus the material had become somewhat dated. Allreet ( talk) 05:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
I took a shot at cleaning up this section, then became concerned about the use of cites and information. One citation, for example, was to a blog, an opinion column by a newspaper reporter. I've removed the quote from the column as unreliable and violating NPOV. Also, the NY Times quote from the White House official, though legitimate, appears to be somewhat out of context and extraneous. It's not quite a non sequitor, but in my opinion, it was dropped in, as was other material, to make a political point. In addition, other statements were worded to color the situation as more negative than what the sources indicate. Please compare my changes with what was here, and let me know what you think. I'd like to re-work the section, including adding and straightening out details and bringing in a couple other sources. Thanks. Allreet ( talk) 06:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
There should be a section discussing how this will effect what a typical person will pay for healthcare. It should compare cost before the program and after.( Mil112 ( talk) 15:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC))
The article addresses individual and busines impact, but seems to leave out the policy impact.
Reinsurance Community Health Centers Community Mental Health Centers Reducing Fraud, Waste, and Abuse Title IV. Prevention of Chronic Disease and Improving Public Health Title V. Health Care Workforce Investing in Primary Care Increasing the Supply of Primary Care Providers in Underserved Communities Increasing the Supply of Nurses Strengthening the Public Health Workforce Innovations in Health Care Workforce Planning Supporting the Next Generation of Health Professionals Expanding Community Health Centers Title VI. Transparency and Program Integrity Title VII. Improving Access to Innovative Medical Therapies Title VIII. Community Living Assistance Services and Supports Act (CLASS Act) -- Annestacia ( talk) 17:52, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Good point. Go add them then!-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 19:36, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
We have a section in the article dedicated to the impact of the bill (i.e. the legal changes and rhe financial aspect of the bill). But included in this is a further subsection called Threats of Violence which is really out of place because it is talking about threats made to members of Congress as intimidation, presumably to make them vote in a different way to the way they might otherwise have voted.
This text surely does not belong in the "impact" section and given that the article now is really about a piece of passed legislation and not its complicated birth pangs, I feel inclined to delete the section and replace it with a reference to intimidation during passage in the "politics" section. -- Hauskalainen ( talk) 15:42, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I added CBO numbers and quotations, but Hauskalainen deleted them. [3] Obviously I disagree with the deletion and especially the edit summary (HK deleted the final numbers but summarized by saying only the final numbers - which HK had deleted - matter), and long experience has taught me that discussion with Hauskalainen never leads to agreement, but I would like to hear from other editors on this before escalating it to a different forum. TVC 15 ( talk) 21:41, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
The new law contains the word "mandate" in several places but these all relate to the coverage that health insurance companies must satisfy to meet the minimum coverage standards. This is legally correct. A mandate is an order to do something. An insurance company cannot claim that a policy meets the standards under the law if it does not meet these mandated standards. If it does so, it is in breach of a mandate. This is simply not so with the tax imposed on people who opt not to have health insurance. People who do not have coverage may be exempt from the tax or they may be covered by the tax. Being declared liable to pay a tax does not mean you have broken the law because having insurance is not a mandate. The situation is similar to the law in Virginia regarding third party liability insurance for auto insurance. There is no third party liability motor insurance mandate, but a person who has neither bought insurance nor placed a bail bond with the DMV surety has to pay a tax of $500 a year. The tax is an incentive to do something which some people might otherwise not do. Just as special taxes on cigarettes in Europe are an incentive to give up smoking. There is no "mandate" forbidding smoking, and there will be no mandate in the USA forbidding people not to have health insurance.
Clearly what has happened is that certain politicians have labeled this "a mandate" when it really is not. The press in the USA it seems has been lazy and has been calling it what some politicians have called it. Clearly this has been done for political reasons. I read through the judgment in the Virgina case recently and the judge did not at any time refer to the requirement to have insurance OR pay a fine as a "mandate". There simply is not a mandate. So the next question has to be whether we reflect, uncritically, what the press has been saying, or whether we reflect reality. My preference is to reflect reality and refer to what the law calls it, which is a tax on those who are insured. That section of the law has a preamble which makes it perfectly plain that the law makers were imposing this tax because being uninsured adds costs onto the rest of the community as reflected in higher prices on insured persons today and on the government which pays a price for uncompensated care. The article should not use the term "mandate" without putting it in quotation marks and explaining why it is not really a mandate. It would be appropriate for that to happen once in the article and all references thereafter should be to the tax on uninsured persons and not to "individual mandate" or "mandate". For this reason I reverted a simple usage of the term without a proper explanation. -- Hauskalainen ( talk) 00:20, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
First off, Haus, quit assuming bad faith. It's unfortunate for you that in this instance WP policy is in opposition to your stance. No need to take it out on me, however: don't shoot the messenger as it only make YOU look bad. Secondly, I would suggest you go read the judgments handed down. They explain a lot about why it's not a tax, and in some instances cite cases going back over 100 years. I'm just as happy as you to call it a penalty, just not a tax penalty. The court opinions, recalling off the top of my head, made statements to the effect that it is actually a regulatory penalty in its structure (which only returns the point at issue to the conflict over whether it is actually a valid exercise of the Interstate Commerce Clause in conjunction with the Necessary and Proper Clause), but I'd stick with the language of the act, which is simply penalty. Thirdly, this is the crux of your problem: find an independent and reliable third-party source ( WP:RS and WP:VER) that make the characterization you are making, else you are engaging in original research ( WP:OR) and information synthesis ( WP:SYNTH), both being against WP policy. Until then, it needs to remain as individual mandate since that is what the source given has called it. Now, go out and actually do the work before making unilateral changes apparently based only on what you think but for which you haven't provided any cites. Peace out. -- Foofighter20x ( talk) 16:26, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) @( talk) Of course, the law has been designed to give people every encouragement to get insured (i.e. widening Medicaid eligibility for the very poor, subsidies for those on higher incomes, and the choice of a legally unenforceable penalty for choosing not being insured). I have no doubt that some will argue (as you do) that it is not a choice at all. The choice may be limited but it is not a Hobson's choice. What we have here is this
The press and some politicians thus use the term "individual mandate" because calling it "a mandate on those without insurance to get insured with a free opt-out (for some) and an opt-out at the cost of a fine (or none if you choose not to pay the fine) for everyone else" at every usage would be untenable. That is perhaps fine in the United States where the new usage may be understood. But Wikipedia is read worldwide. Wikipedia should not use colloquial English but should explain the individual mandate fully and then use it thereafter in quotation marks. That is all that I am suggesting. Our job as editors is to explain and not to deceive.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 13:13, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
New editor, but a long-time tax pro. The Child Tax Credit is not refundable, though the Additional Child Tax Credit is. A better example is the Earned Income Credit. Changing on article next. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spaghettus1 ( talk • contribs) 07:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I have removed "The Congressional Budget Office estimated that the new law as amended would reduce the federal deficit by $143 billion over the first decade and in the decade after that by an amount equivalent in a broad range between one quarter percent and one-half percent of GDP. [4]" From the introduction because it does not belong there. If you want to add it to the section on IMPACT then do so.-- The Trucker ( talk) 02:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
The introduction has been badly damaged. There is information about the public option and "free market prevailing" in the introduction which not only compromises the neutrality of the article, but if anything should be in the body of the article. I urge immediate changes to this. Myownworst ( talk) 21:42, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be a continued attempt to downplay the requirements that people are required to have a federally approved health insurance policy. There also appears to be a strong effort to remove any mention of the word mandate or try to imply that there really is no mandate. The time for wordsmithing what this law requires needs to end. Arzel ( talk) 18:24, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
@ Arzel. Where has anyone added text which "downplays" the issue? I added a reference to it in the lede and to the main changes in the law. I would say though that there is no "mandate" to have Federally approved health insurance because there are several examples of alternatives NOT to have federally approved health insurance. One legal way to avoid it is to pay the penalty. If we explain why the fine exists, and what the other alternatives are, how can this be "playing down" the issue? Surely it is explaining the issue.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 22:20, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
The individual mandate (or tax for not buying something, whatever you want to call it) is so crucial to this legislation yet that does not really come out the way the article is currently structured. It could do a better job of that. For example, without the individual mandate, insurers cannot realistically be required to accept pre-existing conditions. Yet the pre-existing conditions provision is mentioned way before any mention of the individual mandate.
That's just one example, don't you think the entire article could use an overhaul, though?
Along the same lines, just about all of the constitutional challenges in court right now are around the individual mandate as well, and as mentioned before, if that fails, most of the entire law fails. It's a huge deal but that's not very apparent from this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.149.81.190 ( talk) 19:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Myownworst ( talk) 03:41, 12 January 2011 (UTC)