![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 13 |
At the moment the introduction, as agreed on only by Michaelbluejay and Outerlimits begins with this sentence:
It would improve the sentence to add the word "critic" as follows:
The reason is, Eli Siegel was a critic as well as poet. As evidence, there are, for example, (1) His book reviews in Scribner's Magazine (See Scribner's). (2) And in the NY Times Book Review Kenneth Rexroth wrote: "His translations of Baudelaire and his commentaries on them rank him with the most understanding of the Baudelaire critics in any language". Since Aesthetic Realism is an educational philosophy based on critical thinking, Eli Siegel needs to be placed as a critic as well as poet.
Now let us look at the next sentence:
For the sake of the reader's being better able to understanding this and wanting to read more, I suggest (1) that this sentence be expanded to explain the ideas in clear language and (2) we go back to the point structure that Michaelbluejay originally suggested.
Sources:
1. See "Is Beauty the Making One of Opposites?" [1]
2. See Eli Siegel's preface to Self and World: An Explanation of Aesthetic Realism. [2]
-- samivel 17:35, 1 December 2005 (UTC) ________
I think the following would be a fairer way of putting the next sentences:
In The H Persuasion it is clear that the purpose was not to "stop homosexuality" but for an individual to understand and change it, where that is what he wanted. Is there a source for the phrase, "stop homosexuality?" Is it in a gay periodical? or some other publication?
The fact that explanation and analysis takes place in classes can be stated without making the intro too long. See brochure of classes.
The persons who teach Aesthetic Realism foundation are not only consultants. Seminars and public presentatins are given by others. The faculty is mostly, but not only, consultants. See the people who participate in seminars and events
As to the list of "common cult characteristics" (which was my phrase by the way) I don't think all of them are needed for an intro -- they are enumerated in the article.
In the last sentence, similarly, we don't need the word liars and falsehoods both in one sentence or the extended quote, to make the point.-- samivel 22:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Marinero, I totally understand where you're coming from, and I won't revert you, but consider that the stuff you removed actually reflects poorly on AR people -- it shows them as insanely intolerant. I think through things like that, and the whole Countering the Lies, they make my point much stronger than I ever could. I'm not afraid of including their response to criticism because it shows them for what they really are. Michael Bluejay 06:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I will not respond your insults. I will point out that although you may dismiss actual proof--and you did not comment on my thesis at all except to dismiss it--there are others who won't. There was a valuable article in the New York Times Week in Review titled "Snared in the Web of a Wikipedia Liar" that I recommend to any person reading this Talk page.
Although I won't respond to your insults I will answer the questions you raise, for the sake of anyone reading what I write who won't dismiss it. So, to do a responsible job, I will now risk sounding like a lecturer. I feel there are important aspect of scientific method that aren't sufficiently thought of.
The Role of Single Events in Science. When the Wright Brothers’ plane flew in Kitty Hawk, it was clear that heavier-than-air flight was possible. When Sheldon Kranz became heterosexual in 1946 and later began a deep and successful marriage to Anne Fielding, it was equally clear that homosexuality could change. Wrote his wife, “As I look back, I think knowing that Sheldom had changed in such a profound and lovely way gave me hope for myself” (p. 43, The H Persuasion, 1971). Similar reasoning is true about racism: From the 1970s on, papers were published in peer-reviewed professional journals and other periodicals giving examples of racism or prejudice changing to fairness. (See for example, “Education to promote respect for diverse cultures” by myself in India Abroad April 20, 2001, pp. 2-3; and see “Students Learn, Prejudice Is Defeated” by Sally Ross in the Missouri State Post May 19-25, 2005 Attitudes are as real as bricks and changes in them can be observed. They belong to science.
Also consider this: When Alexander Graham Bell’s assistant heard Bell speak for the first time over the telephone in the 1870s, we had all the evidence the world needed that voice could be transmitted over a wire. “Statistics” are irrelevant in such cases. In each of the above instances the “experiment” was reproducible and successful repetitions exist, including your own cell phone.
Questions about the Place in Scientific Method of Statistics Claude Bernard (probably the greatest physiologist of his time) writes in An Introduction to the Study of Experimental Medicine, that statistics may mask, rather than reveal, a scientific fact: “In physiology, we must never make average descriptions of experiments, because the true relations of phenomena disappear in the average; when dealing with complex and variable experiments, we must study their various circumstances, and then present our most perfect experiment as a type.” (p. 135, Dover Publications: New York, 1957). This should be thought of when one asks for statistics. Statistics of what? And do the averages reveal or obscure scientific facts?
The Understanding of Poverty. So far poverty in America hasn’t ended. The one thing necessary, a desire on the part of every American to have complete justice come to every other American, has not been achieved. There is a sufficient number of professionals and activists who are passionate about economic justice in America and believe that Aesthetic Realism provides the intellectual wherewithal to achieve it. It is the only body of knowledge that shows convincingly and scientifically that the way to take care of one’s own dear self is to be just to other people (see ‘’Psychiatry, Economics, Aesthetics” in ‘’’Self and World’’’ by Eli Siegel). To name one, Michael Stoops, director of field organizing projects of the National Coalition for the Homeless, called “What Does a Person Deserve?” --a film based on this approach created by Emmy award-winner Ken Kimmelman-- “awesome,” and capable of “arousing the conscience of the American people.”
For more examples I think you, the reader, can do further googling. There is enough on the Web to prove the substantiality of every point I am making here and it is very easy to find. But if some folks are going to "just say no" every time convincing evidence is provided, and ask for something else because convincing evidence is not wanted, we will get nowhere.
It is a fact that the method of Aesthetic Realism follows the procedures that are standard for all scientific method: Frame an hypothesis, test that hypothesis with concrete examples, and if the hypothesis is confirmed, it becomes a scientific theory or principle.
That is how the principles of Aesthetic Realism came to be. Perhaps the major source for the reasoning and observations behind these principles is Self and World: An Explanation of Aesthetic Realism by Eli Siegel (Definition Press: New York, 1981) but The Right of Aesthetic Realism to Be Known also explains the principles--and their present-day application--in every issue.
A word of caution: Any person of keen and inquiring intellect who offers a positive opinion of Aesthetic Realism will be dubbed a "True Believer" or on this Discussion page (though not by me). It is a compliment. Because it means that the things you say are too hard to refute by logic or facts, so "bad names" must be used as a last resort.
Meanwhile I trust that most persons reading this will have a truly scientific interest in the new developments that Aesthetic Realism has provided in the social sciences and the arts. Further inquiry will repay his or her effort.
As Claude Bernard says, “The truly scientific spirit...should make us modest and kindly” (p. 39).-- samivel 21:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
You can't "not respond" to insults, as there were none. Jonathan Black had no special knowledge of the sexuality of his guests, he knew only what they told him - just like us - so there is no reason to privilege his description above our neutral description that they claimed to be ex-gay. Since you refuse to discuss your modifications, I'm reverting to the last version on which there was reasonable agreement. - Outerlimits 00:49, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
-- samivel 19:34, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
In keeping with the need expressed by Jonathunder to keep it short--this one is short without omitting anything essential that I can see right now.
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941. Its primary teachings are:
Courses in the Aesthetic Realism understanding of such subjects as poetry, the the visual arts, anthropology, music, marriage, and drama are taught by the faculty of the Aesthetic Realism Foundation in New York City. [10]
From 1971 through 1990 a number of formerly gay persons (as Jonathan Black described them on WNDT, 2/19/71) told of becoming heterosexual through study of this philosophy. Meanwhile, some individuals claim that Aesthetic Realism students are a cult. However, others--from such professions as medicine, law, and education--say this is a falsehood motivated by malice. [11]
-- samivel 20:49, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
As you probably recognize by now, this is acceptable only to you. You claim I lie, and you assert that Jonathan Black had special (and apparently "scientific") knowledge of his interviewee's sexuality. That's nonsense. As is relying on those other famous "scientists", Tom Snyder and David Susskind for validation. No formulation in which they are evoked as "evidence" that their interviewees spoke the truth is possible. - Outerlimits 00:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Much of the discussion here is becoming too theoretical. I suggest that we all step back from fighting over minutiae and return to the basic aim of Wikipedia articles: to summarize verifiable sources using the neutral point of view. Large stretches of this article appear to be based on surmises or interpretations rather than specific references. The "racism" section, for instance, appears to be an essay on an essay, and the "homosexuality" section could benefit with more external sources. The "Victim of the Press" campaign section needs information (where did they protest, what was the largest or most famous protest? etc). Rather than spending time endlessly rewriting the introduction, would some editors be interested in going to the library and researching the periodicals for contemporary coverage of AR? (especially someone in NYC, but most big libraries have microfilm of the NYT)(does anyone have lexus-nexus access?). I suggest that we leave the intro alone and work our way up from the bottom of the article. The recent editing of the introduction resembles a car stuck in the sand. We can get more traction by using sources and by working together for a shared outcome. Thanks, - Willmcw 23:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Some responses for Samivel (to comment he placed here today, though not necessarily to the immediately preceding comment): No, a sentence worded passively in order to deceive its readers into thinking AR didn't promote itself as the answer to homosexuality is not true. No, the truth will not hurt me, and your suggesting that it would is noxious. Truth, of course, is not the only criterion for determining if a sentence is appropriate: style, placement, and other factors must be considered.
Your second afterthought suggests you have missed the point to which you seem to be responding. I didn't object to the phrase "formerly gay", but to your claiming that ARs "converts" are "formerly gay" when the facts in evidence are only that they have claimed that - and necessarily so, since there can be no knowledge of their former or current sexual orientation other than self-description. This is the problem with quoting journalists - who have no independent knowledge of their interviewees's sexuality - as evidence of the truth of their interviewee' statements. Your recent rephrasing, in which - at long last - you avoided this, was an improvement.
No, I do not think I am paranoid about your contributions, as you have suggested. If you wish to continue to insult me, you don't have to do so in such a roundabout manner, as it fools no one: a veiled personal attack is no less a violation of Wikipedia's rule against personal attacks.
And last, you ask to be given the benefit of the doubt in the same breath as you excuse your calling me a liar by saying you have been called worse by others. (And in the same breath as you claim that I was either lying or mistaken). That is hardly the way to earn that benefit, is it?
If you are interested in changing the introduction, I think the only way you will achieve this is through describing your reasons for changing it on this talk page, and achieving consensus here prior to implementation. Clearly your current methodology is not meeting with success. If you find it remarkable that everyone else editing the article thinks your changes are not helpful, it might be time to consider that perhaps the changes are not helpful, rather than ruminating on how you're being "ganged-up on". - Outerlimits 04:40, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Samivel, you're a one-note record. The fact that you repeatedly call me a liar is precisely why you don't deserve any further explanations about my edits. You made your own bed on this one. You know, here in Texas, there's a saying, "When you find that you've dug yourself into a hole, STOP DIGGING." It's crazy that you insist on continuing down the same failed, offensive, combative path. In any event, like I said, I'm done with it. I'll continue to edit the article to keep it fair, but your charges and accusations don't deserve two further words in response. Michael Bluejay 01:17, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
The list of insults mounts. "Robot" too? Good lord! I guess you all think I shouldn't be calm in the face of your ridiculous insults.
I do say that all the name-calling and "tough-talk" in the world never changed a single fact.
About the latest additions, above--I think they're all showboating and public relations. One thing I'm wondering is whether this horrible and sensational writing is merely meant for readers of Michael Bluejay's web pages to see, when (and if) they follow his link to this Talk page.
Of course it would be ideal if I were provoked into even a shadow of their abusive language.
Let's be clear: If the writers of these attacks had any substantive arguments we would have seen them by now. After all, they started attacking early last spring.
With John Siegenthaler, Sr. having been defamed in Wikipedia by an anonymous "editor" who was then "outed" things are looking up.
I'm afraid you all have no choice but to heed my refutations, eventually. -- samivel 03:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
If you are interested in changing the introduction, I think the only way you will achieve this is through describing your reasons for changing it on this talk page, and achieving consensus here prior to implementation. As I've noted before, taking out advertisements is not adequately described as "presenting observations publicly". - Outerlimits 19:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I will show that each of the so-called “cult characteristics” in this Wikipedia article is nonsense and should be removed from this article. Today I begin with the first characteristic: “fanatical devotion to the founder/leader.”
This is nonsense because the high evaluation that students of Aesthetic Realism have given to the work of Eli Siegel is like the high evaluation given to Eli Siegel by authorities who never studied Aesthetic Realism in classes with him or with Ellen Reiss. It also has a resemblance to the high evaluation given to other intellects of world meaning like Leonardo da Vinci and Sir Isaac Newton. But more about that, below.
Soon I will quote from William Carlos Williams, Shelby Foote, Elijah E. Cummings, and others, using the website “Friends of Aesthetic Realism—Countering the Lies as my source of links. You will see that when we take their comments together, they show that Eli Siegel--as an artist and a master of scientific method in literary criticism and elsewhere--was a thinker of unique scope and power. And his largeness of outlook and knowledge was was somewhat like the largeness seen in Leonardo da Vinci both as scientist and artist.
We’ll see, representing the field of poetry, Willliams 1951, Kenneth Rexroth 1969, and Hugh Kenner. We'll see Shelby Foote 2002, standing for the fields of prose writing and literary criticism. We'll see Mayor Martin O’Malley standing for the field of social justice. We'll see Huntington Cairns, standing for the field of philosophy, and Meyer Schapiro, standing for the fields of education and art history. And we'll see Ralph Hattersley 1960 standing for the field of photography and the arts.
What do their statements come to? Eli Siegel was a poet who “secures our place in the cultural world;” a thinker who was “one of the most understanding [literary] critics;” a teacher who was a “true educator”; a social critic and student of the human mind who “enable[ed] people to see the world and others with the respect and kindness they deserve, including people of different races and nationalities.” At the same time he was a great philosopher who “did for aesthetics what Spinoza did for ethics” and a man of "integrity" and "steadfastness of purpose."
I have not quoted a single student of Aesthetic Realism. These statements are about a man with world meaning who had a multi-facetted and preeminently great mind.
They are related to statements that were made about other persons of world stature. Take LaGrange on Isaac Newton: "Newton was the greatest genius that ever existed and the most fortunate, for we cannot find more than once a system of the world to establish.". And take the Columbia Encyclopedia on Leonardo da Vinci: "The richness and originality of intellect in his notebooks reveal one of the great minds of all time."
Eli Siegel produced original and powerful knowledge in three major fields of human endeavor: scientific method, art, and ethics. And further, he described the INTERRELATION of scientific method, criticism of the arts, and the structure of the human mind. This is a scientific and aesthetic tour de force accomplished by no other thinker in history, not even Aristotle (who, in his Metaphysics and also in his Poetics wrote about one and many, unity and variety but didn’t see the relation they provided between the structure of reality and that of a work of art).
Mr. Siegel put this interrelation in a single principle: “The world, art, and self explain each other: each is the aesthetic oneness of opposites.”
Wikipedia volunteers who do not understand Aesthetic Realism and are uninterested in placing its historic value are writing with preposterous—and vicious—pretence when they call others fanatics and worse BECAUSE they see the intellectual meaning of this great philosopher and talk about that meaning in large terms.
We have to grant that the expertise of completely unbiased professionals like Shelby Foote and Huntington Cairns, who are recognized authorities in their fields, is more authoritative by far than that of such attackers as Michaelbluejay, CDThieme, Outerlimits, and Marinero. We have to grant the possibility that Eli Siegel was as good as these authorities say, and others too: those authorities who happen to have studied this philosophy most deeply. Anything less is a travesty and is not justice.
I quote now from “Friends of Aesthetic Realism—Countering the Lies”:
The part of a sentence that reads “fanatical devotion to the founder/leader” in the introduction and in the body of the article should be removed. It is completely false. I have just given 10 verifiable sources that show this undoubtedly.-- samivel 00:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Samivel, for the umpteenth time, who exactly are you trying to convince? Nobody reads this page besides you, me, and a handful of other editors who are too competent to fall for your poorly-argued spin. Who are you trying to convince?
As for the content of your post, do you actually think that quoting independent praise of Eli Siegel somehow proves that AR adherents don't exhibit fanatical devotion to him?! Or perhaps you understand how ridiculous it is to suggest that the former disproves the latter? This is pretty interesting, actually: As a celebrated Ph.D do you really have such a poor grasp of basic logic that you think you've made a point, or are you hoping that others won't be bright enough to catch on that your argument is ridiculous? Which is it?
Assuming it's the latter and you're hoping to obsfucate, again, who exactly are you talking to? Who is your target audience?
Your post isn't even worth addressing save only briefly: As examples of AR students' fanatical devotion to Siegel I quoted students who said that Siegel was THE MOST IMPORTANT HUMAN BEING EVER TO LIVE, that his works were MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE BIBLE OR SHAKESPEARE, and that they WORSHIPPED HIM. And now you come along and say that doesn't count as fanatical devotion because other people had a high opinion of Siegel. Don't make me laugh, Perey. Those people praised Siegel's work but they DIDN'T PUT HIM ON THE SAME LEVEL AS THE MESSIAH!
You know, Perey/Samivel, when claiming to have made a definitive rebuttal it's common form to bother to ADDRESS THE CHARGES you're supposedly rebutting. Where do you even *mention* AR students' claims about Siegel's supremacy among humans or the superiority of his work to all other work or the fact that they worshipped him? Your whole argument is pathetic for that reason alone. You want to debate here? THEN START ACKNOWLEDGING WHAT THE OTHER SIDE IS SAYING INSTEAD OF STICKING YOUR FINGERS IN YOUR EARS AND SINGING "LA LA LA LA".
As for your demand that the fanatical devotion bit be removed from the article ("immediately", no less), all you've done is to very clearly demonstrate that you don't understand Wikipedia's "represent all sides" ideal. Michael Bluejay 04:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
First, it does not matter how much the attackers in this Talk page jeer at logic and observation that they cannot prove wrong. So we will proceed with our argument. If I praise a person greatly, it is not evidence that I am in a "cult."
Consider how great people of the past were written about. Those who cared for these great people were not "fanatics". The same is true of persons caring for Eli Siegel and thinking him the greatest of men of thought.
First is there any criterion for knowing who is the greatest among any population of important creative people? John Ruskin offers this:
On Handel from “Handel’s Messiah with American Bach Soloists” by Jon Hartley Fox
Isaac Newton
Jim Thorpe
Babe Didrikson Zaharias 1911-1956 "Ultimate multisport athlete won three Olympic medals to go with 31 LPGA titles."
1. On Johann Sebastian Bach by Pekka Kanerva
2. On Johann Sebastian Bach by Timothy A. Smith
On Samuel Taylor Coleridge by William Hazlitt
Showing how stupid a person can be on the internet when writing about a great person:
John Keats
Showing how wrong the contemporary of a great poet can be (1818):
Was Beethoven "worshipping" Handel? Was he a fanatic? Isn't it possible that he understood more than Mr. Bluejay would have, if he were living in the time of Beethoven, and writing about him in his website?
And the two people I quoted, Lockhart and "miskatonic.org", who wrote so cleverly but so stupidly about Keats and Coleridge--don't they look like fools? Need I say more?-- samivel 23:22, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
One of the attackers writes, quite fallaciously: "If the idea of AR being a cult has been made by former members, cult experts, and the media, then THAT'S IT, END OF STORY. Wikipedia isn't here to decide who's right and who's wrong, it's here to report the major sides of any issue. Since people believe AR to be a cult, that's enough for it to be mentioned in the article. Period. Can you acknowledge this?"
Wikipedia should not present meritless disinformation--furthering a "tiny minority" agenda and pass it off as fact.
Look at the official guidelines for Wikipedia “ Wikipedia:Neutral point of view” which has the following sentence. It represents what I am writing about in the Talk page here—and it concerns you, now, Marinero, Michealbluejay, Outerlimits, etc.—as well as anyone else reading this. I quote:
“We should, both individually and collectively, make an effort to present these conflicting views fairly, without advocating any one of them, with the qualification that views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all.” [19]
As I wrote before in the Talk pages, historically quite a number of people have been falsely accused of one ridiculous thing or another by a tiny minority like yourselves. These accusers do not have any serious intellectual backing and the accusation itself is preposterous. A cheap tabloid article and a hatchet job in a local religious paper are not "the media" to use your term.
Take, for example, the philosophy of humanism (yes, the humanism that Bertrand Russell among so many others saw as valid). Humanism is accused of being a cult by, for example, an evangelical movement. See http://www.eaec.org/cults/humanism.htm. In fact humanism has been called a cult by more people and in more places than the philosophy YOU are calling a cult.
And even so, does Wikipedia even have the word “cult” in its article on humanism? NO, IT DOESN’T. The reason is, the accusation is not credible. It is ideosyncratic. It is not based on reliable sources. It's a "tiny minority" opinion. And so, even though it is "SOME PEOPLE’S OPINION" the silly accusation of “cult” never appears in the article on humanism. And it shouldn’t.
The same should be true for the article on Aesthetic Realism. The claim of “cult” should be done away with. Why should it be done away with? One of the key Wikipedia guidelines is: “For an encyclopedia, sources should be unimpeachable.”
Although it is true that a few blowhards are quoted in Michael Bluejay’s “cult” pages, they do not meet Wikipedia guidelines. Consider this: the chief source is Michael Bluejay’s personal website. That is NOT a source acceptable to Wikipedia: “Personal websites and blogs are not acceptable as sources, except on the rare occasion that a well-known person, or a known professional journalist or researcher in a relevant field, has set up such a website.” [20] Michael Bluejay’s pages on Aesthetic Realism were not set up by anyone of this description.
Most of the sources quoted in his site are anonymous and their “claims” are outlandishly imaginative--including the five or so people cited in both newspapers. Wikipedia says: “Views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all.” [21]
Further, the Wikipedia “Verifiability” guidelines say: “Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: outlandish claims beg strong sources.” Are Bluejay's sources strong? No, they are not. Here are some of the reasons why:
1. The Bluejay web pages DO NOT refers to any peer-reviewed professional journals. But these are the strongest sources, says Wikipedia. However, supporters of Aesthetic Realism have numerous articles in peer-reviewed professional journals showing the philosophy to be important in their fields and based in scientific method: NOT AT ALL A CULT.
2. The Bluejay web pages have four main sources: a) The first source is the owner’s personal writings (not acceptable in Wikipedia, see No original research. b) The second source is the anonymous and highly charged writing of several anonymous “former students.” Such sources are dubious at best, and do not meet Wikipedia’s criteria for reliability. c) The fourth source consists of two entries by “former students” which appear in a single anti-cult website of dubious reputation. The first source, which is anonymous, is an outright liar and refers to positions that published sources contradict; the second source, who does give his name, also is a flagrant liar (see, for example, Arnold Perey’s refutations on [“Friends of Aesthetic Realism--Countering the Lies" http://www.counteringthelies.com/a_perey.html]). We won't mention for a moment the outright contradictions among writers cited by Bluejay as authorities. d) The third source is two sleazy hatchet-jobs in the press. One is in a local Jewish newspaper and one is in a slimy New York tabloid, the NY Post. According to Wikipedia guidelines, tabloids are not acceptable as sources:
“Sometimes a particular statement can only be found in a publication of dubious reliability, such as a tabloid newspaper. If the statement is relatively unimportant, then just remove it — don't waste words on statements of limited interest and dubious truth.”[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Dubious_sources
As to the Jewish newspaper (an article published many years after the tabloid junk)-- even a swift reading shows the extreme bias of the writer (Goldman) and the POV insults of the people quoted. Meanwhile, a few "former students'" lies which are quoted as gospel in the article are indisputably shown to be false in “Friends of Aesthetic Realism—Countering the Lies”. Enough said for now.-- samivel 17:57, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Holy praxeology, Batman! One really must marvel at the juxtaposition of the statement "All the name-calling in the world has never altered a single truth" and "evidence" consisting of a long string of name-calling preserved lovingly for some forty years! - Outerlimits 21:46, 30 December 2005 (UTC) I note in passing that what this letter does is indicate that AR has in fact been called a cult for at least 43 years....since 1962. - Outerlimits 07:45, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
What are these new crop of "references" being use to reference? This is not an ARF bibliography. Unless they contain factual information then they presumably could only being used to reference the philosophy section, which doesn't seem to need additional references. We do need more factual references, especially those that are from third-parties. Also, how can we verify the sources? Are they available online or only at the ARF library? Unless we can tie these references to specifc assertions in the article I'm removing them. - Willmcw 18:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that we use footnotes to indicate the sources for assertions in this article. Assertions without references and references that don't support assertions should all be removed. - Willmcw 21:03, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I know that the point of the article and the talk page is not to debate whether AR is a cult, nor whether even such a thing as cults exist, despite Samivel/Perey's insistence on trying to prove his point on those positions. Nevertheless, since Samivel/Perey has argued the point that the article shouldn't contain cult accusations because the professional opinion is that cults don't really exist (or something to that effect), I thought I'd share a professional opinion that cults not only exist, but that they're harmful. Margaret Singer, Ph.D was a professor of psychiatry at the University of California in San Francisco and in the school of psychology at the University of California in Berkeley. She authored the book "Cults in our Midst" and was twice nominated for a Nobel Prize. [22] Incidentally, the site referenced is run by the guy who won an $8.7 million judgement from the Church of Scientology after he sued them for cult-like practices. But yeah, cults are really mythical, right? Michael Bluejay 13:03, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Samivel/Perey, perhaps you would enlighten us as to the difference between mocking and debating? You said that the scholarly opinion was that cults don't exist, or some such. I provided evidence that at least one esteemed scholar feels otherwise. How does this constitute mocking? Michael Bluejay 06:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Samivel/Perey's latest edit summary refers to "fictitious criticisms" of cult behavior. Those criticisms certainly exist, as has been exhaustively documented, here and elsewhere, with more than enough supporting evidence to merit their inclusion. As for the idea that cults don't exist, here's yet more evidence: Scholarly studies of cults authored by Ph.D's: http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=1039&highlight=temerlin Michael Bluejay 22:31, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Samivel/Perey, when you make a contested revert first and THEN make more edits, you make it impossible for someone to revert your contested version while keeping your new edits intact. If you make the less controversial edits FIRST, then it's possible for someone to revert back to that version, preserving some of your work. I'm not guaranteeing this will happen, but now it's not even an option for the other editors.
Incidentally, I'm not reverting because the version that I and the other editors favor got the most support (unanimous support besides you, in fact), I revert because it's a more encyclopaedic version. You might consider that if you can't get even one other person to support your position that maybe your position isn't the best one. As I've said before, you can invite independent Wikipedians to review the article by filing an RfC (Request for Comment), though I'm confident that indpendent Wikipedians will prefer the versions that I and the other editors favor, and not the one that you're championing all by yourself. Michael Bluejay 05:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Apparently the truth is not good enough for you (by "you" I refer to the 4 or 5 person editing gang which calls themselves a majority) and your own version of the facts is preferable. This is an encyclopedia, and as such the truth comes first. You cannot disguise misrepresentations by calling them a "position"! That is like five people getting together and "agreeing" that horses ride people--then writing this in Wikipedia under the pretext that it is a legitimate "position" on the subject. It is fortunate that the "Wikipedia Liar" (NY Times) concept has become national, and your distortions and smears do not have the "authority" that you all thought they would.-- samivel 05:41, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I've witnessed the comings and goings at this page for over seven months. While it made some progress back in the summer, recently it has been bouncing between to versions, with little visible progress towards a compromise in between. There seem to be several points of disagreement, some of which may never be settled. It also appears to me that there is a general agreement on some of those points, with the exception of a single editor. Since the normal editing process has not been successful in achieving consensus, I propose that we conduct a straw poll on the disputed matters in order to determine the consensus of the editors.
Wikipedia:straw polls has suggestions on how to conduct a poll. Before we start we should give some thought to phrasing the questions so that they best capture the basis of the dispute, and also so that they help us work towards agreement. If this seems like a reasonable approach, I suggest that we spend a week developing five or fewer questions that can cover the main points of dispute. I further suggest that we omit points that are purely relevent to Eli Siegel, such as his death, as they may distract us from the disputes on this article. - Will Beback 06:11, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why you think a straw poll would be helpful. The disagreements and positions of the various involved parties are clear. The "core issue" is that Samivel wants AR presented as an earth-shatteringly brilliant philosophy which can do no wrong, and the others wish to present that actual history of the AR movement/philosophy/foundation. The remedy is for Samivel to learn, through repeated reversion, that he can't enforce his view, but must reason for his preferred wordings in discussion with others. I don't see much benefit to stirring the pot with a straw poll until that lesson is learned. #1 is not amenable to a T/F answer, though it might be as an attributed opinion. #2: we need a citation of Eli Siegel saying "homosexuality is not pathological", not opinions. As for #4: "professional" what? As I said, I don't think any of them are core issues. - Outerlimits 02:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
The importance of sticking to what is true has not been dealt with by the little group of inter-agreeing commentators, above. And I think the actual facts (not things they make up) are rather important. If we don't stick to what's true, we are not an encyclopedia.
The fact that the bulk of their comments are motivated by malice will not escape a fair-minded reader who's paying attention.
It is equally obvious (see the Talk page archives) that no amount of scientific logic or actual documentation has made a dent in that malice. To the contrary: the more solid is the evidence that sustains the value of Aesthetic Realism, the more inflamed is the malice.
So, although it is risky, I wouldn't mind showing, in this article, how each of the bibliographical references is a needed support for statements that are true in this article--and indeed, when you look at the references together, they make ludicrous any notion that Aesthetic Realism is a so-called "cult."
For example, Nat Herz's Konika Handbook was quite a popular book which uses (as Herz writes) the Siegel Theory of Opposites to explain how to make a good photograph. The Herz book illustrates the historic influence of the Aesthetic Realism point of view, and the persons who studied Aesthetic Realism with Eli Siegel, in the development of American aesthetics. Persons who support an important idea, who are enthusiastic about it, and critical of belittlers, do not constitute a cult. Historically one would call it a school of thought, and it has great dignity and importance.
If need be, the work of Herz and some others can be quoted further, or their relevance can be pointed to more directly in the article--after all, the H Persuasion is quoted far more than any of them. -- samivel 22:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes--a further note. The statements I have made in this article will hold up no matter which Wikipedians choose to search out sources, check the logic, sound the depths, and find the facts. So will those which TS made in the summer, and so will the editorial refining made by Will Beback. This is all verifiable content. And I stand behind it any time. I am confident of this and as far as I can see I haven't asked anyone to help support me. I think the facts will do just fine.
I may point out that the four or five belittlers have done what they could to chase away anyone who agrees with me. (I don't know who these people were, only that they were mercilessly and calculatedly attacked, and didn't want to stay in Wikipedia and be "slimed.") So congratulations on your success, little "gang of four" (or five).
The documentation for everything, including the pre-eminence of Eli Siegel as poet, philosopher, and educator is solid. None of my "worthy opponents" have disputed that in a factual way, which would have been interesting. All I get are anonymous smears and insults.
In case I have to state it, in self-defense, I have written only what I know to be true and that which is thoroughly verifiable. I am no one's mouthpiece--as I hope any reader who is really in his or her right mind will realize, if only from the tone of my writing. I'm writing from the heart and from the results of my own rather extensive scientific training in four universities. The article is a solid one, with the exception of some quite vile accusations that have no basis, and which Bluejay et al are trying to push.-- samivel 22:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
That does it. I'm tired of Samivel repeatedly ignoring the rules around here, especially by repeatedly calling his fellow editors liars after being asked repeatedly to stop doing so. This edit summary is the proverbial last straw:
Along with this inflammatory accusation:
So I've reported Samivel for repeated Wikiquette violations. If Samivel doesn't have any respect for the Wikipedia rules then he shouldn't edit here, plain and simple. As soon as he's willing to do so without name-calling then that will be great.
Most of the distortions in Samivel's last Talk entry above had been dealt with here ad nauseum by mutiple editors and I see no reason to pretend that they haven't been.
Samivel, you can cry out about how you're being unfairly persecuted, and you can retaliate by reporting me for Wikiquette violations (and I have no doubt that you will do both), but don't think I didn't expect it.
Samivel, as for your charge about how your supporters were supposedly chased away, I remember only one other editor who ever supported your position, TS, who remained anonymous, and preferred to attack the other editors the same way you do. I think TS received far less hate than what you've dished out at those who disagree with you. As for "sliming", gee, repeatedly calling your fellow editors liars doesn't count as sliming? Creating a website called CounteringTheLies and branding everyone who disagrees with you as liars doesn't count as sliming? Suffice it to say that the only one who thinks that the other editors were chased away appears to be you.
Samivel, for the umpteenth time, you can't single-handedly push your perspective of this article while ignoring everyone else's feelings about it. If you can't find any other editors willing to support your position, then at the very least file an RfC. In the absence of your doing either, please stop reverting to a version of the article which has been rejected by every single active editor except you. MichaelBluejay 23:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it is quite obvious that Michael Bluejay and a few others would like to eliminate me by "any means whatsoever." Today it is by presenting false charges. They were offered by Will BeBack a chance to comment on and have Wikipedians comment on the differences between their version and the version I regard as truthful but they have refused to comment.
Throughout the past months, as the archives will reveal, they have added whatever misrepresentations they please without any desire to discuss them honestly. (See, for example, Bluejay's transparent scuttling of the attempt at mediation.) It is just such egregious misrepresentations that John Siegenthaler and some others have exposed to the public and which have opened up Wikipedia to serious questioning, including legal questioning. (I am writing historically here and not "threatening" as Mr. Bluejay well knows.) So I do not believe I have anything to fear from the Wikipedia administration, because my attempt has been, always, to stick to facts and facts alone in this *encyclopedia* article. They know I have been editing in good faith.
It is apparent that my "worthy opponents" do not want any more documentation of the fact that Aesthetic Realism is philosophy, ethics, and aesthetics, and would like to "eliminate me from the race."
Nevertheless, I feel at the moment obligated to continue adding the verification that Wikipedia requires; this time I point to the relevance of the Nat Herz reference:
Nat Herz writes the following in Konica Pocket Handbook: An Introduction to Better Photography (Verlan Books, New York: 1960) about (1) the way that studying Aesthetic Realism enhanced his perception (as photographer and critic) and (2) the need for the Siegel Theory of Opposites (see Is Beauty the Making One of Opposites?) to stimulate the progress of aesthetics in the field of photography. Herz writes:
My own approach to the art of photography is based on Aesthetic Realism, a practical philosophy with universal implications founded by the noted American poet and philosopher Eli Siegel, author of Hot Afternoons Have Been in Montana: Poems (Definition Press, 1957). Based on Siegel's Theory of Opposites, Aesthetic Realism deals with the making one of opposing forces in art, the world and in ourselves. For example, the deeper we look into the art of photography the more we discover about the uniting of such opposites as light and dark, foreground and background, the details and the picture as a whole. A successful photo will have beauty because of the way the photographer has related these and other opposites to each other. Siegel writes in Art As Life (Terrain Gallery, New York, 1957), "For art is the seeing of relation among objects, which while true to reality, expresses the attitude of an individual thing, a self." It is just this relation among objects and people that the photographer is always looking for in the everyday world around him...the right relation of what he feels inside about something he sees outside expressed with proper photographic technique (p. 13).
Having a viewpoint like Aesthetic Realism has been a distinct advantage to me in writing this book. Too often in photographic history, photography as a scientific technique and photography as an art have been painfully split. I have been encouraged to see these two as one, and that is the way I have tried to present them in this book (p. 14).
Too many person are unnecessarily frightened of art or of aesthetics, which is the study of what makes something have beauty, including a photograph. According to Aesthetic Realism...aesthetics is the study of how opposites become one to make a work of art have beauty. In a good candid portrait, for example, we are shooting for the fleeting expression of a moment, but we want this moment of 1/50 of a second, to show something of a person's whole life... (p. 117).
The strange and familiar are opposites that are very crucial in photography. We are always trying to shoot ordinary people or familiar objects in such a way as to make them look striking or strange. Also, photography can take a strange scene and give it such a sense of reality that you feel it is familiar, although you have never seen it before... (p. 117).
Perhaps the two most important opposites in composition are inclusion and exclusion. In photography we must constantly be aware of what will be in the picture and what must be left out... (p. 117).
As long as people feel you respect them and find them interesting and worthy of photographing, they will be pleased and at least passively cooperative....The candid photography of daily life again bears out the truth of Eli Siegel's well-known statement which is quoted as the motto of this chapter: "In reality opposites are one; art shows this." Candid photography is particularly concerned with the opposites of sameness and difference. The daily life of most persons has a great deal of sameness....The candid photography searches for a moment of difference within the sameness of daily life. The two must come together if the picture is to succeed. If the subject seems just different we will not be able to relate it to ourselves....It is [the] meaningful interweaving of the opposites of sameness and difference...that candid photographers are so eager to find (p. 139).
From Nat Herz, photographer and commentator, writing on the aesthetics of photography with Aesthetic Realism as his basis. Konica Pocket Handbook: An Introduction to Better Photography (Verlan Books, New York: 1960).-- samivel 17:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it is quite obvious that Michael Bluejay and a few others would like to eliminate me by "any means whatsoever."
Today it is by presenting false charges.
They were offered by Will BeBack a chance to comment on and have Wikipedians comment on the differences between their version and the version I regard as truthful but they have refused to comment.
Throughout the past months, as the archives will reveal, they have added whatever misrepresentations they please without any desire to discuss them honestly.
(See, for example, Bluejay's transparent scuttling of the attempt at mediation.)
So I do not believe I have anything to fear from the Wikipedia administration, because my attempt has been, always, to stick to facts and facts alone in this *encyclopedia* article.
They know I have been editing in good faith.
It is apparent that my "worthy opponents" do not want any more documentation of the fact that Aesthetic Realism is philosophy, ethics, and aesthetics, and would like to "eliminate me from the race."
To begin reviewing the differences between writing proposed by Outerlimits and Michael Bluejay--writing supported by CDThieme, Jonathunder, and Marinero, and the writing which I am proposing as more accurate, I will start with an analysis of one sentence.
This is a sentence in the first paragraph of this article. Its purpose is to give an accurate and brief description of one of the important concepts of Aesthetic Realism. We are now looking at two versions.
Here is Version #1: “The desire to have contempt—that is, to lessen the meaning of things in order to see one's self as superior--causes unhappiness and even insanity.”
This is what I think would be better: Version #2: “The desire to have contempt—that is, to lessen the meaning of things--causes guilt and hurts mind.”
First let’s look at the following phrase from Version #1: Contempt…“causes unhappiness and even insanity.” Aesthetic Realism shows that there is a line of continuity from ordinary contempt (for example, not listening when people speak, and putting them aside, because one assumes one knows better) to the highly charged state of mind which is psychosis--in which a person has put aside reality so fiercely that he or she is delusional. I believe that saying contempt…“causes unhappiness and even insanity” is too quick. It doesn't give enough weight or importance to either unhappiness or insanity, from which people suffer a great deal. And then consider how the cause of insanity or unhappiness is put-- “in order to see one’s self as superior.” This makes the explanation given by Aesthetic Realism sound insubstantial. How could this little cause be potent enough to cause that terror which is insanity?
Further, to say bluntly that contempt causes “unhappiness” in sentence #1—is this really what Aesthetic Realism says? After all, a person can be unhappy about the tragic earthquake in Kashmir. There are many external causes of sadness and pain, even while the aesthetic way of seeing them can make for a deep happiness because it goes for justice.
Version #2 claims less than Version #1 and is more accurate. To say that contempt “causes guilt and hurts mind” is a beginning point for finding out more. Here is the logic of this concept: “Guilt,” wrote Mr. Siegel, “is a result of insufficient liking of the world or a separation from it” (Self and World, p. 7). What, then, is the cause of guilt? “The pleasure of contempt,” he wrote, “is the “great opponent to the pleasure of knowing the world and, perhaps, liking it because one knows it” (Self and World, p. 7). “Contempt Hurts Mind” is the title of the first issue of The Right of Aesthetic Realism to Be Known on this subject (issue #133). It has these three points: “One, contempt is exceedingly popular; two, contempt weakens minds; three, contempt is the crucial cause of insanity” (see The Right Of no. 134). (Note the progression from ordinary, everyday contempt to the unusual contempt for reality that propels insanity.) As to the truth of this idea, Mr. Siegel points to a work on Freudian psychoanalysis: “The psychosis exhibits alone no compromise with reality, turns its back on reality, as it were” (Abraham A. Brill, quoted in Self and World, p. 10).
If I am right, and Version #2 does less to superficialize important philosophic ideas, we should have Version #2.-- samivel 23:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
We've probably had enough talking. Time for some editing. -- Tony Sidaway 16:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is suffering from the detritus of a previous edit war, and is in serious need of attention. beekman 19:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I certainly don't object to having fresh eyes look at the article, and I agree that improvements can be made. I'm taking a fairly hands-off approach myself, since as a critic of the group that promotes AR my presence is controversial. I want just enough input to make sure that the criticism gets a fair mention, and that the AR people don't turn the article into a big cheerleading piece, as has been done in the past. Whenever I touch the article there are objections. So I'll let other editors handle the other stuff. I'm looking forward to seeing how you and/or other can improve the article. Thanks, - MichaelBluejay 05:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Samivel, I'm glad to see you're concerned about other editors being "vicious" and "vilifying" others. Does that mean when we express perspectives different from your own you will no longer call us liars? - MichaelBluejay 02:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I recently attended a presentation on jazz at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation after learning about it from a friend in the music field. I have to admit I almost didn't go after goggling Aesthetic Realism and coming upon Michael Bluejay's site. If Aesthetic Realism is all those things he says it is, one has to wonder why anybody studies it! I half expected to find an auditorium full of zombies. But my friend (who has been to several events at the AR Foundation although he himself has never studied AR) assured me that the folk who do study it are rather intelligent people and very solid citizens. He insisted that I "go and see for myself" like he has done. He said he learns something that's new and thought-provoking with every program he attends and nobody has ever tried to recruit him. I'm really glad I listened to him. What an absolutely wonderful experience. Eli Siegel on jazz is simply amazing! I was astonished by the lucid description of opposites in every aspect of jazz--and wondered why I had never seen this before in my musical studies when Eli Siegel made it so obvious and, frankly, exciting. And what talent the presenters had. I didn't see any evidence at all of the cult characteristics Mr. Bluejay very lavishly describes on his web pages. And, by the way, the place was packed.
I'll probably go back to another program in the near future. One is coming up that includes a film of Eli Siegel teaching an Aesthetic Realism class and other films made about Aesthetic Realism over the years including a recent one of Siegel's prize poem "Hot Afternoons" read by Siegel himself. That I'd really like to see.
I also noted from the displays and literature that Aesthetic Realism speakers are being invited to address some pretty respected, mainline organizations and educational institutions all over the country (and indeed the world) these days. I must say, it impressed me--and I did find myself wondering why all these invitations would be extended if Aesthetic Realism was such a "cult." Certainly the folks doing the inviting have access to the internet too.
In any event, I started reading the talk pages on Aesthetic Realism in Wikipedia more closely when I got home and was stuck by the intensity of this running battle (accompanied with a great deal of acid and unenlightening heat, I'm afraid) between those who clearly value Aesthetic Realism and care for it and those who it seems to me will stop at nothing to tar and feather it. (I must say that the mean-spiritedness and take-no-prisoners approach of some of these anti-AR people makes me much less inclined to believe them. It seems to me very personal and quite small and gossipy--not really a thoughtful inquiry into the ideas of Aesthetic Realism at all.) So I'm just making my presence and initial observations known. Thought it might be helpful to others like myself navigating this maze of charge and counter-charge. I might share some further thoughts in the future as I find out more about Aesthetic Realism from the perspective of a casual observer and novice. But I definitely don't intend to get myself bogged down in all the nasty stuff that is going on here. -- digital scribe 14:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey, A Perey, did you also wear a fake nose and glasses when you typed this?
The probable sock puppet wrote:
Really? Here are examples of some of the supposed "mean-spiritedness" posted on my (Bluejay's) site -- each one written by a different former member:
In fact, it's the *AR people* who best demonstrate mean-spiritedness, responding to their critics by insulting them and calling them liars. From the pro-AR "Countering the Lies" website:
So we're supposed to believe that an independent third party would look at both sites and come to the conclusion that *mine* is the one that's bitter and nasty? Please. -- MichaelBluejay 01:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Wow. It is unbelievable to me that an objective first impression of AR can so quickly elicit from its enemies the suspicion that it comes from a disguised Aesthetic Realist trying to pull a fast one. Amazing.
To the person who awarded me a doctorate I don’t have—thank you very much. And to Mr. Bluejay: you have the absolute right to make your case and perhaps you’re right, although I have yet to see evidence of it. I’m just calling it as I see it. I’m sure someone on the other side of the debate from you could select an entirely different set of quotes from the Friends web site and from yours and make exactly the opposite point. I just think that a whole web site dedicated to labeling AR as a cult is by definition negative and it’s hard for me to understand why you would even resist that idea. It seems to me from looking over your web site that you’ve dedicated a good deal of time and energy to tearing Aesthetic Realism down, sprinkling in here and there a few words that manage to damn it with the faintest of praise. That’s my overall impression but I suppose every reader will have to decide for himself or herself as the case may be.
Anyway, as I wrote the last time I visited here, I don’t want to get into the midst of the bickering and nastiness. I did go to the film event at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation on 8-13-06 as I mentioned I likely would. This was my second visit there (the first being the jazz program which favorably impressed me). Here are a few of my observations about the film event:
• First, a surprisingly large crowd. The line stretched double-wide clear around the corner. Some people couldn’t get in but I was lucky.
• Second, Ken Kimmelman is definitely a talented guy. His films were both funny and revealing and I found them to be very artistic. They are imaginative and surprisingly moving. He explained the technique he uses in making his films in a very understandable way. And he showed how Siegel’s idea about opposites is in play in every artistic decision he makes in his productions. He’s won a lot of awards for his films, including an Emmy. So he’s pretty well thought of.
• Third, I liked his most recent film of Eli Siegel’s poem “Hot Afternoons.” The relations Eli Siegel makes in that epic-like poem are natural and yet surprising. I hadn’t read the poem before and I felt like it was giving me an introduction to the history of the world in about fifteen minutes. The film itself was visually superb. One of the standouts in it for me were the expressive faces of the Native Americans. You really felt they were deep, thoughtful people. Native Americans are usually seen so superficially. I also liked the scene in which a graceful bird flying in the sky fades into two old double wing prop planes chugging along in the air uncertainly. This illustrated Siegel’s line: “That bird, how sweet and graceful it is…Could we ever do that? Machines that fly are clumsy and ugly.” But the line: “There are millions of men in the world and each is one man. Each is one man by himself taking care of himself all the time, and changing other men and being changed by them” was the most memorable for me. At that point the camera panned into a crowd of people walking in the street and finally settled on one particular man. I began wondering who that guy was and what he was thinking at that moment—where before he was just a face in the crowd. I would definitely recommend seeing this film to anybody.
• Fourth, I was, of course, curious to see the much maligned Eli Siegel himself teaching one of his classes in another of Kimmelman’s films. It was from the 1960’s and so it was done in black and white. It aired once on local NYC public television in the late 60’s. The impression one would get from some people is that Eli Siegel was a master showman and skilled hypnotist who “took in” many unsuspecting people. So I was expecting a dazzling, magnetic personality; charismatic in the extreme. What I saw was a rather soft-spoken and plain-dressing gentleman, who looked much like my own grandfather, reasoning with people about their lives in a thoughtful fashion and asking some very thought-provoking questions. Clearly this was a man of thought. He was sharp, insightful and funny. I especially liked the way he spoke to one young woman who couldn’t see how her parents were like her. It made me think about my own parents a bit differently. He also appeared rather kind to me. From what I saw I certainly didn’t feel that he deserves all the rancor that has come his way on the internet and elsewhere. In fact, his propositions seemed worthy of further inquiry to my mind.
• Fifth, Kimmelman’s film The Heart Knows Better, based on a statement about racism by Eli Siegel, was terrific! I can see why it won an Emmy award. I didn’t get it exactly but Siegel’s quote was something about how the aorta in every person is the same and you can’t tell, when you are looking just at it, if it is from a white person, an Asian person, a black person or a Hispanic person.
• Sixth, I couldn’t help but notice the endorsement of Kimmelman’s films (and by extension the Aesthetic Realism philosophy they are based on) by mainstream organizations like the UN, which funded one of his films, and the National Homeless Coalition, which sponsored another.
• Seventh, there was a tastefully done wine and cheese reception following the screenings. I stayed for only a short while during which time I spoke with a couple from England and their daughter. She had heard about Aesthetic Realism from one of her college professors during a lecture and had looked into it further on the internet. She liked what she read so much that she told her parents about it. They said that since they had planned on vacationing in America anyway, they scheduled their trip to New York to coincide with this event. They were headed out of town to Washington DC that afternoon to do some sightseeing.
• Eighth, once again nobody descended upon me to suck me into the “cult.”
I’d really like to find something downbeat to say about the experience so that the people who like to give an unflattering take on AR won’t award me with another doctorate or just dismissively lump me in with the “mindless” and “criticism adverse” AR crowd! We all view the world; rather unfortunately I think, through the blurred lens of our own prejudices and untested presumptions. That surely includes me too. But there really isn’t anything negative I can think of to say—and that’s not because I wasn’t looking. It was, all in all, a delightful afternoon. While it didn’t make me want to rush out and join up with AR, it definitely did make me more favorably disposed toward it and therefore more inclined to take some of the more blatently negative comments with a healthy dose of skepticism. -- digital scribe 21:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The probably sock-puppet wrote:
Right, and a whole website called COUNTERING THE LIES established to call its critics LIARS is somehow NOT negative. Right.
As for cherry-picking the quotes, the MOST critical voices on my site don't come ANYWHERE CLOSE to the level of hostility and rage that the AR/CTL folks have directed at me and others. You want to argue your point? Then find something nice on Countering the Lies said about me or the other critics. It doesn't exist.
And if you're not THE Arnold Perey, you're certainly an AR-ist. You all write the same way, it's so transparent that it jumps off the page at the reader. It's amazing to me that the AR people aren't aware of how incredibly obvious this is to everyone else. Whoever you are, you've lost the ability to write like a non-ARist.
You're also probably not aware of the clues you left on Wikipedia that are as obvious as an elephant in the bathroom that you're actually Dr. P.
Anyway, you say you're someone else? Fine, I'm game, I'll play: I'm Michael Bluejay, 2605 Oaklawn, Austin, Texas 78722, 512-322-0638. Exactly who are you? - MichaelBluejay 15:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I placed this tag under the discussion of homexsexuality because the claimed "fact" about reverting to heterosexuality remains controversial today, and AE can not escape its past. Bearian 01:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
This is my first visit back to the Wiki entry on Aesthetic Realism in a year, since the last time I attended an event at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation and decided to post some of my personal observations about it after reading this article. My girlfriend and I attended another event there just last Sunday so I thought I’d find my way back here to write some further reflections.
Surprisingly, I saw for the first time the two postings about my last remarks that appear a little bit above. The writers seem to have very active imaginations and to be rather strong conspiracy theorists, casting me (completely erroneously, I might add, for any who really care) as a “sock puppet” or a phony “average Joe.” One of these fine folks thinks it is “as obvious as an elephant in a bathroom” that my initials are AP. That would surprise my mother, who named me, even more than she would be surprised by finding an elephant in a bathroom!
In any event, there is one thing I am happy to agree with them about. "Enough nonsense!" Here then are a few more of my avowedly “man on the street” impressions for anyone who cares to read them.
This particular program was called “Rock ‘n’ Roll, the Opposites & Our Greatest Hopes—a Celebration!” And was it a celebration! The boisterous, cheering crowd was so huge that it stretched out the door and a repeat performance (to come this October) had to be announced at intermission for all of those who just couldn’t get inside. Having been to a few other such programs at the AR Foundation, I knew enough to get there in plenty of time in order to get a seat!
The popularity of this particular program, in my opinion, was well deserved. The performance was “high class” in every way, and extremely professional. And the juxtaposition of the music with verbal explanations of it from the vantage point of aesthetics was not only wonderfully educational but also added so much more emotion and appreciation to one’s hearing of the actual songs when they were then performed. Two of my favorites were “Rag Doll,” sung by Kevin Fennell and others, and “You’re So Vain,” sung by Ann Richards and others. Many of the male singers expressed heartfelt gratitude for their marriages and, when Timothy Lynch did so, and then sung “Can’t Take My Eyes Off of You,” the depth and conviction of his feeling actually brought tears to my eyes even though I don't know the happy couple.
AR makes a great deal of the opposites, which, as I take it, it understands to be the basic stuff of existence. The speakers/singers who spoke about and performed popular rock n’ roll songs such as “Earth Angel” and “Runaround Sue” tried to illustrate the AR concept that beauty is composed of opposites that have been “made one,” and that people as such are also trying to make the same opposites one in them and can be instructed by art how to do it.
There was a deep and impressive explanation given for John Phillips’ (of Mamas and Papas fame) song “Monday, Monday.” When the singers asked about what this confusing song actually means in an Aesthetic Realism Class (and pointed out that John Phillips himself said he didn’t know), the person teaching the class explained to them that it is about how a person starts out fresh every morning hoping for good things but then discovers that some of the same old things they don’t like about themselves still get in the way and frustrate their hopes. After hearing this explanation I felt as if I was listening to the song (which I’ve always loved) for the first time when it was then sung. The words fit the explanation to a tee in my opinion—and I also realized they were about things I have felt as well and that maybe that is why I liked it so much.
There was also a presentation of a lesson that a rock musician once had directly with Eli Siegel which was really fascinating. Eli Siegel spoke to him about how Rock ‘n’ Roll puts private and public together and you could really see by his answers and demeanor how this particular person was struggling to do exactly that. And then, as the program went on and different songs were performed, the singers explained how each song was also about private and public. The logic seemed sound to me, and very, very interesting.
I enjoyed it and everybody else who was there seemed to enjoy it too. Aside from one couple who I saw leaving at the intermission (for reasons unknown and probably quite innocent), the audience was really into the music as well as the explanation of it. Considering that it was a hot, humid August afternoon in Manhattan—the kind you like to spend sipping lemonade (or something stronger) in your nice air-conditioned apartment---I’m glad I made the extra effort to be there. I’m not into music all that much. That’s my girlfriend’s passion. But I really had a good time. Whenever I’ve gone to the AR Foundation I’ve found it to be decidedly worthwhile.
I’ll do more posting here the next time I decide to attend a program at the AR Foundation. user: digital scribe 17:51 15 August 2007 (UTC)
One of the organization's main claims to fame was its assertion that it successfully converted homosexuals to heterosexuals. For that reason it belongs in Category:Ex-gay movement. If anyone can think of a better category then that's fine too. But it is inappropriate to remove it from the category tree entirely. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Getting back to basics, let's see what pops up in a search:
That 1995 source characterizes it as the secular school of the ex-gay movement.
·:·
Will Beback
·:·
07:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, Siegel and his followers believed that homosexuality was an illness “caused” by self-contempt. As early as the mid-’40s, some members claimed they had converted to heterosexuality through the foundation’s teachings. In 1971, in what could be viewed as a precursor to the current ex-gay movement, three counselors began specifically working with homosexual men, many of whom were married off to female members, most of whom were lesbians.
In the ’70s AR heavily promoted the myth that they could convert people from gay to straight. Members appeared on talk shows, and AR placed full-page ads in the New York Times, Washington Post and The Los Angeles Times that listed the names of those who had “changed.” New York’s Gay Activist Alliance responded by infiltrating [or “zapping”] their meetings at their Greene Street headquarters and passing out pro-gay literature with accurate information. In return, AR members claimed that they were victims being “persecuted” by GAA.
As late as 1986, AR published vehemently anti-gay tomes. Until the mid-1990s, AR members wore buttons that read “Victims of the Press.”
Feelings of persecution, intolerance of criticism, slavish devotion to a leader, a belief that only they know the one true path to enlightenment—these are distinguishing characteristics of a cult.
Many ex-members of the group, including those supposedly “converted” to heterosexuality, contribute horror stories to a web site put together by Michael Bluejay, who was a child member of the group and whose own grandmother was one of those who was allegedly “converted.” (The web site is michaelbluejay.com.)
“AR no longer gives counseling sessions to try to ‘cure’ homosexuality,” Bluejay told The Blade. “They still believe that homosexuality is a psychological deficit caused by one’s contempt for the world—they have to continue believing this, because Eli Siegel said so—but it's not a part of their curriculum any more. And they avoid talking about it as much as possible—to the point of even seeming to deny that they ever had such a thing as a gay cure.”
However, they remain privately homophobic. Their official position, as laid out in an e-mail from Friends of Aesthetic Realism (which runs a web site, Countering the Lies, to respond to criticism of the group) is: “Aesthetic Realism does not see homosexuality as a ‘sickness’ or something to ‘cure.’” On this same site AR executive director Margo Carpenter claims that “AR is for full, equal civil rights for everyone.” She labels claims that AR offers a cure for homosexuality as a “hoard of lies.”
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |year=
/ |date=
mismatch (
help); Unknown parameter |coauthur=
ignored (
help)There's a source defining the meaning of "ex-gay". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 13 |
At the moment the introduction, as agreed on only by Michaelbluejay and Outerlimits begins with this sentence:
It would improve the sentence to add the word "critic" as follows:
The reason is, Eli Siegel was a critic as well as poet. As evidence, there are, for example, (1) His book reviews in Scribner's Magazine (See Scribner's). (2) And in the NY Times Book Review Kenneth Rexroth wrote: "His translations of Baudelaire and his commentaries on them rank him with the most understanding of the Baudelaire critics in any language". Since Aesthetic Realism is an educational philosophy based on critical thinking, Eli Siegel needs to be placed as a critic as well as poet.
Now let us look at the next sentence:
For the sake of the reader's being better able to understanding this and wanting to read more, I suggest (1) that this sentence be expanded to explain the ideas in clear language and (2) we go back to the point structure that Michaelbluejay originally suggested.
Sources:
1. See "Is Beauty the Making One of Opposites?" [1]
2. See Eli Siegel's preface to Self and World: An Explanation of Aesthetic Realism. [2]
-- samivel 17:35, 1 December 2005 (UTC) ________
I think the following would be a fairer way of putting the next sentences:
In The H Persuasion it is clear that the purpose was not to "stop homosexuality" but for an individual to understand and change it, where that is what he wanted. Is there a source for the phrase, "stop homosexuality?" Is it in a gay periodical? or some other publication?
The fact that explanation and analysis takes place in classes can be stated without making the intro too long. See brochure of classes.
The persons who teach Aesthetic Realism foundation are not only consultants. Seminars and public presentatins are given by others. The faculty is mostly, but not only, consultants. See the people who participate in seminars and events
As to the list of "common cult characteristics" (which was my phrase by the way) I don't think all of them are needed for an intro -- they are enumerated in the article.
In the last sentence, similarly, we don't need the word liars and falsehoods both in one sentence or the extended quote, to make the point.-- samivel 22:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Marinero, I totally understand where you're coming from, and I won't revert you, but consider that the stuff you removed actually reflects poorly on AR people -- it shows them as insanely intolerant. I think through things like that, and the whole Countering the Lies, they make my point much stronger than I ever could. I'm not afraid of including their response to criticism because it shows them for what they really are. Michael Bluejay 06:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I will not respond your insults. I will point out that although you may dismiss actual proof--and you did not comment on my thesis at all except to dismiss it--there are others who won't. There was a valuable article in the New York Times Week in Review titled "Snared in the Web of a Wikipedia Liar" that I recommend to any person reading this Talk page.
Although I won't respond to your insults I will answer the questions you raise, for the sake of anyone reading what I write who won't dismiss it. So, to do a responsible job, I will now risk sounding like a lecturer. I feel there are important aspect of scientific method that aren't sufficiently thought of.
The Role of Single Events in Science. When the Wright Brothers’ plane flew in Kitty Hawk, it was clear that heavier-than-air flight was possible. When Sheldon Kranz became heterosexual in 1946 and later began a deep and successful marriage to Anne Fielding, it was equally clear that homosexuality could change. Wrote his wife, “As I look back, I think knowing that Sheldom had changed in such a profound and lovely way gave me hope for myself” (p. 43, The H Persuasion, 1971). Similar reasoning is true about racism: From the 1970s on, papers were published in peer-reviewed professional journals and other periodicals giving examples of racism or prejudice changing to fairness. (See for example, “Education to promote respect for diverse cultures” by myself in India Abroad April 20, 2001, pp. 2-3; and see “Students Learn, Prejudice Is Defeated” by Sally Ross in the Missouri State Post May 19-25, 2005 Attitudes are as real as bricks and changes in them can be observed. They belong to science.
Also consider this: When Alexander Graham Bell’s assistant heard Bell speak for the first time over the telephone in the 1870s, we had all the evidence the world needed that voice could be transmitted over a wire. “Statistics” are irrelevant in such cases. In each of the above instances the “experiment” was reproducible and successful repetitions exist, including your own cell phone.
Questions about the Place in Scientific Method of Statistics Claude Bernard (probably the greatest physiologist of his time) writes in An Introduction to the Study of Experimental Medicine, that statistics may mask, rather than reveal, a scientific fact: “In physiology, we must never make average descriptions of experiments, because the true relations of phenomena disappear in the average; when dealing with complex and variable experiments, we must study their various circumstances, and then present our most perfect experiment as a type.” (p. 135, Dover Publications: New York, 1957). This should be thought of when one asks for statistics. Statistics of what? And do the averages reveal or obscure scientific facts?
The Understanding of Poverty. So far poverty in America hasn’t ended. The one thing necessary, a desire on the part of every American to have complete justice come to every other American, has not been achieved. There is a sufficient number of professionals and activists who are passionate about economic justice in America and believe that Aesthetic Realism provides the intellectual wherewithal to achieve it. It is the only body of knowledge that shows convincingly and scientifically that the way to take care of one’s own dear self is to be just to other people (see ‘’Psychiatry, Economics, Aesthetics” in ‘’’Self and World’’’ by Eli Siegel). To name one, Michael Stoops, director of field organizing projects of the National Coalition for the Homeless, called “What Does a Person Deserve?” --a film based on this approach created by Emmy award-winner Ken Kimmelman-- “awesome,” and capable of “arousing the conscience of the American people.”
For more examples I think you, the reader, can do further googling. There is enough on the Web to prove the substantiality of every point I am making here and it is very easy to find. But if some folks are going to "just say no" every time convincing evidence is provided, and ask for something else because convincing evidence is not wanted, we will get nowhere.
It is a fact that the method of Aesthetic Realism follows the procedures that are standard for all scientific method: Frame an hypothesis, test that hypothesis with concrete examples, and if the hypothesis is confirmed, it becomes a scientific theory or principle.
That is how the principles of Aesthetic Realism came to be. Perhaps the major source for the reasoning and observations behind these principles is Self and World: An Explanation of Aesthetic Realism by Eli Siegel (Definition Press: New York, 1981) but The Right of Aesthetic Realism to Be Known also explains the principles--and their present-day application--in every issue.
A word of caution: Any person of keen and inquiring intellect who offers a positive opinion of Aesthetic Realism will be dubbed a "True Believer" or on this Discussion page (though not by me). It is a compliment. Because it means that the things you say are too hard to refute by logic or facts, so "bad names" must be used as a last resort.
Meanwhile I trust that most persons reading this will have a truly scientific interest in the new developments that Aesthetic Realism has provided in the social sciences and the arts. Further inquiry will repay his or her effort.
As Claude Bernard says, “The truly scientific spirit...should make us modest and kindly” (p. 39).-- samivel 21:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
You can't "not respond" to insults, as there were none. Jonathan Black had no special knowledge of the sexuality of his guests, he knew only what they told him - just like us - so there is no reason to privilege his description above our neutral description that they claimed to be ex-gay. Since you refuse to discuss your modifications, I'm reverting to the last version on which there was reasonable agreement. - Outerlimits 00:49, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
-- samivel 19:34, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
In keeping with the need expressed by Jonathunder to keep it short--this one is short without omitting anything essential that I can see right now.
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941. Its primary teachings are:
Courses in the Aesthetic Realism understanding of such subjects as poetry, the the visual arts, anthropology, music, marriage, and drama are taught by the faculty of the Aesthetic Realism Foundation in New York City. [10]
From 1971 through 1990 a number of formerly gay persons (as Jonathan Black described them on WNDT, 2/19/71) told of becoming heterosexual through study of this philosophy. Meanwhile, some individuals claim that Aesthetic Realism students are a cult. However, others--from such professions as medicine, law, and education--say this is a falsehood motivated by malice. [11]
-- samivel 20:49, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
As you probably recognize by now, this is acceptable only to you. You claim I lie, and you assert that Jonathan Black had special (and apparently "scientific") knowledge of his interviewee's sexuality. That's nonsense. As is relying on those other famous "scientists", Tom Snyder and David Susskind for validation. No formulation in which they are evoked as "evidence" that their interviewees spoke the truth is possible. - Outerlimits 00:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Much of the discussion here is becoming too theoretical. I suggest that we all step back from fighting over minutiae and return to the basic aim of Wikipedia articles: to summarize verifiable sources using the neutral point of view. Large stretches of this article appear to be based on surmises or interpretations rather than specific references. The "racism" section, for instance, appears to be an essay on an essay, and the "homosexuality" section could benefit with more external sources. The "Victim of the Press" campaign section needs information (where did they protest, what was the largest or most famous protest? etc). Rather than spending time endlessly rewriting the introduction, would some editors be interested in going to the library and researching the periodicals for contemporary coverage of AR? (especially someone in NYC, but most big libraries have microfilm of the NYT)(does anyone have lexus-nexus access?). I suggest that we leave the intro alone and work our way up from the bottom of the article. The recent editing of the introduction resembles a car stuck in the sand. We can get more traction by using sources and by working together for a shared outcome. Thanks, - Willmcw 23:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Some responses for Samivel (to comment he placed here today, though not necessarily to the immediately preceding comment): No, a sentence worded passively in order to deceive its readers into thinking AR didn't promote itself as the answer to homosexuality is not true. No, the truth will not hurt me, and your suggesting that it would is noxious. Truth, of course, is not the only criterion for determining if a sentence is appropriate: style, placement, and other factors must be considered.
Your second afterthought suggests you have missed the point to which you seem to be responding. I didn't object to the phrase "formerly gay", but to your claiming that ARs "converts" are "formerly gay" when the facts in evidence are only that they have claimed that - and necessarily so, since there can be no knowledge of their former or current sexual orientation other than self-description. This is the problem with quoting journalists - who have no independent knowledge of their interviewees's sexuality - as evidence of the truth of their interviewee' statements. Your recent rephrasing, in which - at long last - you avoided this, was an improvement.
No, I do not think I am paranoid about your contributions, as you have suggested. If you wish to continue to insult me, you don't have to do so in such a roundabout manner, as it fools no one: a veiled personal attack is no less a violation of Wikipedia's rule against personal attacks.
And last, you ask to be given the benefit of the doubt in the same breath as you excuse your calling me a liar by saying you have been called worse by others. (And in the same breath as you claim that I was either lying or mistaken). That is hardly the way to earn that benefit, is it?
If you are interested in changing the introduction, I think the only way you will achieve this is through describing your reasons for changing it on this talk page, and achieving consensus here prior to implementation. Clearly your current methodology is not meeting with success. If you find it remarkable that everyone else editing the article thinks your changes are not helpful, it might be time to consider that perhaps the changes are not helpful, rather than ruminating on how you're being "ganged-up on". - Outerlimits 04:40, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Samivel, you're a one-note record. The fact that you repeatedly call me a liar is precisely why you don't deserve any further explanations about my edits. You made your own bed on this one. You know, here in Texas, there's a saying, "When you find that you've dug yourself into a hole, STOP DIGGING." It's crazy that you insist on continuing down the same failed, offensive, combative path. In any event, like I said, I'm done with it. I'll continue to edit the article to keep it fair, but your charges and accusations don't deserve two further words in response. Michael Bluejay 01:17, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
The list of insults mounts. "Robot" too? Good lord! I guess you all think I shouldn't be calm in the face of your ridiculous insults.
I do say that all the name-calling and "tough-talk" in the world never changed a single fact.
About the latest additions, above--I think they're all showboating and public relations. One thing I'm wondering is whether this horrible and sensational writing is merely meant for readers of Michael Bluejay's web pages to see, when (and if) they follow his link to this Talk page.
Of course it would be ideal if I were provoked into even a shadow of their abusive language.
Let's be clear: If the writers of these attacks had any substantive arguments we would have seen them by now. After all, they started attacking early last spring.
With John Siegenthaler, Sr. having been defamed in Wikipedia by an anonymous "editor" who was then "outed" things are looking up.
I'm afraid you all have no choice but to heed my refutations, eventually. -- samivel 03:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
If you are interested in changing the introduction, I think the only way you will achieve this is through describing your reasons for changing it on this talk page, and achieving consensus here prior to implementation. As I've noted before, taking out advertisements is not adequately described as "presenting observations publicly". - Outerlimits 19:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I will show that each of the so-called “cult characteristics” in this Wikipedia article is nonsense and should be removed from this article. Today I begin with the first characteristic: “fanatical devotion to the founder/leader.”
This is nonsense because the high evaluation that students of Aesthetic Realism have given to the work of Eli Siegel is like the high evaluation given to Eli Siegel by authorities who never studied Aesthetic Realism in classes with him or with Ellen Reiss. It also has a resemblance to the high evaluation given to other intellects of world meaning like Leonardo da Vinci and Sir Isaac Newton. But more about that, below.
Soon I will quote from William Carlos Williams, Shelby Foote, Elijah E. Cummings, and others, using the website “Friends of Aesthetic Realism—Countering the Lies as my source of links. You will see that when we take their comments together, they show that Eli Siegel--as an artist and a master of scientific method in literary criticism and elsewhere--was a thinker of unique scope and power. And his largeness of outlook and knowledge was was somewhat like the largeness seen in Leonardo da Vinci both as scientist and artist.
We’ll see, representing the field of poetry, Willliams 1951, Kenneth Rexroth 1969, and Hugh Kenner. We'll see Shelby Foote 2002, standing for the fields of prose writing and literary criticism. We'll see Mayor Martin O’Malley standing for the field of social justice. We'll see Huntington Cairns, standing for the field of philosophy, and Meyer Schapiro, standing for the fields of education and art history. And we'll see Ralph Hattersley 1960 standing for the field of photography and the arts.
What do their statements come to? Eli Siegel was a poet who “secures our place in the cultural world;” a thinker who was “one of the most understanding [literary] critics;” a teacher who was a “true educator”; a social critic and student of the human mind who “enable[ed] people to see the world and others with the respect and kindness they deserve, including people of different races and nationalities.” At the same time he was a great philosopher who “did for aesthetics what Spinoza did for ethics” and a man of "integrity" and "steadfastness of purpose."
I have not quoted a single student of Aesthetic Realism. These statements are about a man with world meaning who had a multi-facetted and preeminently great mind.
They are related to statements that were made about other persons of world stature. Take LaGrange on Isaac Newton: "Newton was the greatest genius that ever existed and the most fortunate, for we cannot find more than once a system of the world to establish.". And take the Columbia Encyclopedia on Leonardo da Vinci: "The richness and originality of intellect in his notebooks reveal one of the great minds of all time."
Eli Siegel produced original and powerful knowledge in three major fields of human endeavor: scientific method, art, and ethics. And further, he described the INTERRELATION of scientific method, criticism of the arts, and the structure of the human mind. This is a scientific and aesthetic tour de force accomplished by no other thinker in history, not even Aristotle (who, in his Metaphysics and also in his Poetics wrote about one and many, unity and variety but didn’t see the relation they provided between the structure of reality and that of a work of art).
Mr. Siegel put this interrelation in a single principle: “The world, art, and self explain each other: each is the aesthetic oneness of opposites.”
Wikipedia volunteers who do not understand Aesthetic Realism and are uninterested in placing its historic value are writing with preposterous—and vicious—pretence when they call others fanatics and worse BECAUSE they see the intellectual meaning of this great philosopher and talk about that meaning in large terms.
We have to grant that the expertise of completely unbiased professionals like Shelby Foote and Huntington Cairns, who are recognized authorities in their fields, is more authoritative by far than that of such attackers as Michaelbluejay, CDThieme, Outerlimits, and Marinero. We have to grant the possibility that Eli Siegel was as good as these authorities say, and others too: those authorities who happen to have studied this philosophy most deeply. Anything less is a travesty and is not justice.
I quote now from “Friends of Aesthetic Realism—Countering the Lies”:
The part of a sentence that reads “fanatical devotion to the founder/leader” in the introduction and in the body of the article should be removed. It is completely false. I have just given 10 verifiable sources that show this undoubtedly.-- samivel 00:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Samivel, for the umpteenth time, who exactly are you trying to convince? Nobody reads this page besides you, me, and a handful of other editors who are too competent to fall for your poorly-argued spin. Who are you trying to convince?
As for the content of your post, do you actually think that quoting independent praise of Eli Siegel somehow proves that AR adherents don't exhibit fanatical devotion to him?! Or perhaps you understand how ridiculous it is to suggest that the former disproves the latter? This is pretty interesting, actually: As a celebrated Ph.D do you really have such a poor grasp of basic logic that you think you've made a point, or are you hoping that others won't be bright enough to catch on that your argument is ridiculous? Which is it?
Assuming it's the latter and you're hoping to obsfucate, again, who exactly are you talking to? Who is your target audience?
Your post isn't even worth addressing save only briefly: As examples of AR students' fanatical devotion to Siegel I quoted students who said that Siegel was THE MOST IMPORTANT HUMAN BEING EVER TO LIVE, that his works were MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE BIBLE OR SHAKESPEARE, and that they WORSHIPPED HIM. And now you come along and say that doesn't count as fanatical devotion because other people had a high opinion of Siegel. Don't make me laugh, Perey. Those people praised Siegel's work but they DIDN'T PUT HIM ON THE SAME LEVEL AS THE MESSIAH!
You know, Perey/Samivel, when claiming to have made a definitive rebuttal it's common form to bother to ADDRESS THE CHARGES you're supposedly rebutting. Where do you even *mention* AR students' claims about Siegel's supremacy among humans or the superiority of his work to all other work or the fact that they worshipped him? Your whole argument is pathetic for that reason alone. You want to debate here? THEN START ACKNOWLEDGING WHAT THE OTHER SIDE IS SAYING INSTEAD OF STICKING YOUR FINGERS IN YOUR EARS AND SINGING "LA LA LA LA".
As for your demand that the fanatical devotion bit be removed from the article ("immediately", no less), all you've done is to very clearly demonstrate that you don't understand Wikipedia's "represent all sides" ideal. Michael Bluejay 04:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
First, it does not matter how much the attackers in this Talk page jeer at logic and observation that they cannot prove wrong. So we will proceed with our argument. If I praise a person greatly, it is not evidence that I am in a "cult."
Consider how great people of the past were written about. Those who cared for these great people were not "fanatics". The same is true of persons caring for Eli Siegel and thinking him the greatest of men of thought.
First is there any criterion for knowing who is the greatest among any population of important creative people? John Ruskin offers this:
On Handel from “Handel’s Messiah with American Bach Soloists” by Jon Hartley Fox
Isaac Newton
Jim Thorpe
Babe Didrikson Zaharias 1911-1956 "Ultimate multisport athlete won three Olympic medals to go with 31 LPGA titles."
1. On Johann Sebastian Bach by Pekka Kanerva
2. On Johann Sebastian Bach by Timothy A. Smith
On Samuel Taylor Coleridge by William Hazlitt
Showing how stupid a person can be on the internet when writing about a great person:
John Keats
Showing how wrong the contemporary of a great poet can be (1818):
Was Beethoven "worshipping" Handel? Was he a fanatic? Isn't it possible that he understood more than Mr. Bluejay would have, if he were living in the time of Beethoven, and writing about him in his website?
And the two people I quoted, Lockhart and "miskatonic.org", who wrote so cleverly but so stupidly about Keats and Coleridge--don't they look like fools? Need I say more?-- samivel 23:22, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
One of the attackers writes, quite fallaciously: "If the idea of AR being a cult has been made by former members, cult experts, and the media, then THAT'S IT, END OF STORY. Wikipedia isn't here to decide who's right and who's wrong, it's here to report the major sides of any issue. Since people believe AR to be a cult, that's enough for it to be mentioned in the article. Period. Can you acknowledge this?"
Wikipedia should not present meritless disinformation--furthering a "tiny minority" agenda and pass it off as fact.
Look at the official guidelines for Wikipedia “ Wikipedia:Neutral point of view” which has the following sentence. It represents what I am writing about in the Talk page here—and it concerns you, now, Marinero, Michealbluejay, Outerlimits, etc.—as well as anyone else reading this. I quote:
“We should, both individually and collectively, make an effort to present these conflicting views fairly, without advocating any one of them, with the qualification that views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all.” [19]
As I wrote before in the Talk pages, historically quite a number of people have been falsely accused of one ridiculous thing or another by a tiny minority like yourselves. These accusers do not have any serious intellectual backing and the accusation itself is preposterous. A cheap tabloid article and a hatchet job in a local religious paper are not "the media" to use your term.
Take, for example, the philosophy of humanism (yes, the humanism that Bertrand Russell among so many others saw as valid). Humanism is accused of being a cult by, for example, an evangelical movement. See http://www.eaec.org/cults/humanism.htm. In fact humanism has been called a cult by more people and in more places than the philosophy YOU are calling a cult.
And even so, does Wikipedia even have the word “cult” in its article on humanism? NO, IT DOESN’T. The reason is, the accusation is not credible. It is ideosyncratic. It is not based on reliable sources. It's a "tiny minority" opinion. And so, even though it is "SOME PEOPLE’S OPINION" the silly accusation of “cult” never appears in the article on humanism. And it shouldn’t.
The same should be true for the article on Aesthetic Realism. The claim of “cult” should be done away with. Why should it be done away with? One of the key Wikipedia guidelines is: “For an encyclopedia, sources should be unimpeachable.”
Although it is true that a few blowhards are quoted in Michael Bluejay’s “cult” pages, they do not meet Wikipedia guidelines. Consider this: the chief source is Michael Bluejay’s personal website. That is NOT a source acceptable to Wikipedia: “Personal websites and blogs are not acceptable as sources, except on the rare occasion that a well-known person, or a known professional journalist or researcher in a relevant field, has set up such a website.” [20] Michael Bluejay’s pages on Aesthetic Realism were not set up by anyone of this description.
Most of the sources quoted in his site are anonymous and their “claims” are outlandishly imaginative--including the five or so people cited in both newspapers. Wikipedia says: “Views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all.” [21]
Further, the Wikipedia “Verifiability” guidelines say: “Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: outlandish claims beg strong sources.” Are Bluejay's sources strong? No, they are not. Here are some of the reasons why:
1. The Bluejay web pages DO NOT refers to any peer-reviewed professional journals. But these are the strongest sources, says Wikipedia. However, supporters of Aesthetic Realism have numerous articles in peer-reviewed professional journals showing the philosophy to be important in their fields and based in scientific method: NOT AT ALL A CULT.
2. The Bluejay web pages have four main sources: a) The first source is the owner’s personal writings (not acceptable in Wikipedia, see No original research. b) The second source is the anonymous and highly charged writing of several anonymous “former students.” Such sources are dubious at best, and do not meet Wikipedia’s criteria for reliability. c) The fourth source consists of two entries by “former students” which appear in a single anti-cult website of dubious reputation. The first source, which is anonymous, is an outright liar and refers to positions that published sources contradict; the second source, who does give his name, also is a flagrant liar (see, for example, Arnold Perey’s refutations on [“Friends of Aesthetic Realism--Countering the Lies" http://www.counteringthelies.com/a_perey.html]). We won't mention for a moment the outright contradictions among writers cited by Bluejay as authorities. d) The third source is two sleazy hatchet-jobs in the press. One is in a local Jewish newspaper and one is in a slimy New York tabloid, the NY Post. According to Wikipedia guidelines, tabloids are not acceptable as sources:
“Sometimes a particular statement can only be found in a publication of dubious reliability, such as a tabloid newspaper. If the statement is relatively unimportant, then just remove it — don't waste words on statements of limited interest and dubious truth.”[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Dubious_sources
As to the Jewish newspaper (an article published many years after the tabloid junk)-- even a swift reading shows the extreme bias of the writer (Goldman) and the POV insults of the people quoted. Meanwhile, a few "former students'" lies which are quoted as gospel in the article are indisputably shown to be false in “Friends of Aesthetic Realism—Countering the Lies”. Enough said for now.-- samivel 17:57, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Holy praxeology, Batman! One really must marvel at the juxtaposition of the statement "All the name-calling in the world has never altered a single truth" and "evidence" consisting of a long string of name-calling preserved lovingly for some forty years! - Outerlimits 21:46, 30 December 2005 (UTC) I note in passing that what this letter does is indicate that AR has in fact been called a cult for at least 43 years....since 1962. - Outerlimits 07:45, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
What are these new crop of "references" being use to reference? This is not an ARF bibliography. Unless they contain factual information then they presumably could only being used to reference the philosophy section, which doesn't seem to need additional references. We do need more factual references, especially those that are from third-parties. Also, how can we verify the sources? Are they available online or only at the ARF library? Unless we can tie these references to specifc assertions in the article I'm removing them. - Willmcw 18:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that we use footnotes to indicate the sources for assertions in this article. Assertions without references and references that don't support assertions should all be removed. - Willmcw 21:03, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I know that the point of the article and the talk page is not to debate whether AR is a cult, nor whether even such a thing as cults exist, despite Samivel/Perey's insistence on trying to prove his point on those positions. Nevertheless, since Samivel/Perey has argued the point that the article shouldn't contain cult accusations because the professional opinion is that cults don't really exist (or something to that effect), I thought I'd share a professional opinion that cults not only exist, but that they're harmful. Margaret Singer, Ph.D was a professor of psychiatry at the University of California in San Francisco and in the school of psychology at the University of California in Berkeley. She authored the book "Cults in our Midst" and was twice nominated for a Nobel Prize. [22] Incidentally, the site referenced is run by the guy who won an $8.7 million judgement from the Church of Scientology after he sued them for cult-like practices. But yeah, cults are really mythical, right? Michael Bluejay 13:03, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Samivel/Perey, perhaps you would enlighten us as to the difference between mocking and debating? You said that the scholarly opinion was that cults don't exist, or some such. I provided evidence that at least one esteemed scholar feels otherwise. How does this constitute mocking? Michael Bluejay 06:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Samivel/Perey's latest edit summary refers to "fictitious criticisms" of cult behavior. Those criticisms certainly exist, as has been exhaustively documented, here and elsewhere, with more than enough supporting evidence to merit their inclusion. As for the idea that cults don't exist, here's yet more evidence: Scholarly studies of cults authored by Ph.D's: http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=1039&highlight=temerlin Michael Bluejay 22:31, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Samivel/Perey, when you make a contested revert first and THEN make more edits, you make it impossible for someone to revert your contested version while keeping your new edits intact. If you make the less controversial edits FIRST, then it's possible for someone to revert back to that version, preserving some of your work. I'm not guaranteeing this will happen, but now it's not even an option for the other editors.
Incidentally, I'm not reverting because the version that I and the other editors favor got the most support (unanimous support besides you, in fact), I revert because it's a more encyclopaedic version. You might consider that if you can't get even one other person to support your position that maybe your position isn't the best one. As I've said before, you can invite independent Wikipedians to review the article by filing an RfC (Request for Comment), though I'm confident that indpendent Wikipedians will prefer the versions that I and the other editors favor, and not the one that you're championing all by yourself. Michael Bluejay 05:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Apparently the truth is not good enough for you (by "you" I refer to the 4 or 5 person editing gang which calls themselves a majority) and your own version of the facts is preferable. This is an encyclopedia, and as such the truth comes first. You cannot disguise misrepresentations by calling them a "position"! That is like five people getting together and "agreeing" that horses ride people--then writing this in Wikipedia under the pretext that it is a legitimate "position" on the subject. It is fortunate that the "Wikipedia Liar" (NY Times) concept has become national, and your distortions and smears do not have the "authority" that you all thought they would.-- samivel 05:41, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I've witnessed the comings and goings at this page for over seven months. While it made some progress back in the summer, recently it has been bouncing between to versions, with little visible progress towards a compromise in between. There seem to be several points of disagreement, some of which may never be settled. It also appears to me that there is a general agreement on some of those points, with the exception of a single editor. Since the normal editing process has not been successful in achieving consensus, I propose that we conduct a straw poll on the disputed matters in order to determine the consensus of the editors.
Wikipedia:straw polls has suggestions on how to conduct a poll. Before we start we should give some thought to phrasing the questions so that they best capture the basis of the dispute, and also so that they help us work towards agreement. If this seems like a reasonable approach, I suggest that we spend a week developing five or fewer questions that can cover the main points of dispute. I further suggest that we omit points that are purely relevent to Eli Siegel, such as his death, as they may distract us from the disputes on this article. - Will Beback 06:11, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why you think a straw poll would be helpful. The disagreements and positions of the various involved parties are clear. The "core issue" is that Samivel wants AR presented as an earth-shatteringly brilliant philosophy which can do no wrong, and the others wish to present that actual history of the AR movement/philosophy/foundation. The remedy is for Samivel to learn, through repeated reversion, that he can't enforce his view, but must reason for his preferred wordings in discussion with others. I don't see much benefit to stirring the pot with a straw poll until that lesson is learned. #1 is not amenable to a T/F answer, though it might be as an attributed opinion. #2: we need a citation of Eli Siegel saying "homosexuality is not pathological", not opinions. As for #4: "professional" what? As I said, I don't think any of them are core issues. - Outerlimits 02:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
The importance of sticking to what is true has not been dealt with by the little group of inter-agreeing commentators, above. And I think the actual facts (not things they make up) are rather important. If we don't stick to what's true, we are not an encyclopedia.
The fact that the bulk of their comments are motivated by malice will not escape a fair-minded reader who's paying attention.
It is equally obvious (see the Talk page archives) that no amount of scientific logic or actual documentation has made a dent in that malice. To the contrary: the more solid is the evidence that sustains the value of Aesthetic Realism, the more inflamed is the malice.
So, although it is risky, I wouldn't mind showing, in this article, how each of the bibliographical references is a needed support for statements that are true in this article--and indeed, when you look at the references together, they make ludicrous any notion that Aesthetic Realism is a so-called "cult."
For example, Nat Herz's Konika Handbook was quite a popular book which uses (as Herz writes) the Siegel Theory of Opposites to explain how to make a good photograph. The Herz book illustrates the historic influence of the Aesthetic Realism point of view, and the persons who studied Aesthetic Realism with Eli Siegel, in the development of American aesthetics. Persons who support an important idea, who are enthusiastic about it, and critical of belittlers, do not constitute a cult. Historically one would call it a school of thought, and it has great dignity and importance.
If need be, the work of Herz and some others can be quoted further, or their relevance can be pointed to more directly in the article--after all, the H Persuasion is quoted far more than any of them. -- samivel 22:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes--a further note. The statements I have made in this article will hold up no matter which Wikipedians choose to search out sources, check the logic, sound the depths, and find the facts. So will those which TS made in the summer, and so will the editorial refining made by Will Beback. This is all verifiable content. And I stand behind it any time. I am confident of this and as far as I can see I haven't asked anyone to help support me. I think the facts will do just fine.
I may point out that the four or five belittlers have done what they could to chase away anyone who agrees with me. (I don't know who these people were, only that they were mercilessly and calculatedly attacked, and didn't want to stay in Wikipedia and be "slimed.") So congratulations on your success, little "gang of four" (or five).
The documentation for everything, including the pre-eminence of Eli Siegel as poet, philosopher, and educator is solid. None of my "worthy opponents" have disputed that in a factual way, which would have been interesting. All I get are anonymous smears and insults.
In case I have to state it, in self-defense, I have written only what I know to be true and that which is thoroughly verifiable. I am no one's mouthpiece--as I hope any reader who is really in his or her right mind will realize, if only from the tone of my writing. I'm writing from the heart and from the results of my own rather extensive scientific training in four universities. The article is a solid one, with the exception of some quite vile accusations that have no basis, and which Bluejay et al are trying to push.-- samivel 22:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
That does it. I'm tired of Samivel repeatedly ignoring the rules around here, especially by repeatedly calling his fellow editors liars after being asked repeatedly to stop doing so. This edit summary is the proverbial last straw:
Along with this inflammatory accusation:
So I've reported Samivel for repeated Wikiquette violations. If Samivel doesn't have any respect for the Wikipedia rules then he shouldn't edit here, plain and simple. As soon as he's willing to do so without name-calling then that will be great.
Most of the distortions in Samivel's last Talk entry above had been dealt with here ad nauseum by mutiple editors and I see no reason to pretend that they haven't been.
Samivel, you can cry out about how you're being unfairly persecuted, and you can retaliate by reporting me for Wikiquette violations (and I have no doubt that you will do both), but don't think I didn't expect it.
Samivel, as for your charge about how your supporters were supposedly chased away, I remember only one other editor who ever supported your position, TS, who remained anonymous, and preferred to attack the other editors the same way you do. I think TS received far less hate than what you've dished out at those who disagree with you. As for "sliming", gee, repeatedly calling your fellow editors liars doesn't count as sliming? Creating a website called CounteringTheLies and branding everyone who disagrees with you as liars doesn't count as sliming? Suffice it to say that the only one who thinks that the other editors were chased away appears to be you.
Samivel, for the umpteenth time, you can't single-handedly push your perspective of this article while ignoring everyone else's feelings about it. If you can't find any other editors willing to support your position, then at the very least file an RfC. In the absence of your doing either, please stop reverting to a version of the article which has been rejected by every single active editor except you. MichaelBluejay 23:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it is quite obvious that Michael Bluejay and a few others would like to eliminate me by "any means whatsoever." Today it is by presenting false charges. They were offered by Will BeBack a chance to comment on and have Wikipedians comment on the differences between their version and the version I regard as truthful but they have refused to comment.
Throughout the past months, as the archives will reveal, they have added whatever misrepresentations they please without any desire to discuss them honestly. (See, for example, Bluejay's transparent scuttling of the attempt at mediation.) It is just such egregious misrepresentations that John Siegenthaler and some others have exposed to the public and which have opened up Wikipedia to serious questioning, including legal questioning. (I am writing historically here and not "threatening" as Mr. Bluejay well knows.) So I do not believe I have anything to fear from the Wikipedia administration, because my attempt has been, always, to stick to facts and facts alone in this *encyclopedia* article. They know I have been editing in good faith.
It is apparent that my "worthy opponents" do not want any more documentation of the fact that Aesthetic Realism is philosophy, ethics, and aesthetics, and would like to "eliminate me from the race."
Nevertheless, I feel at the moment obligated to continue adding the verification that Wikipedia requires; this time I point to the relevance of the Nat Herz reference:
Nat Herz writes the following in Konica Pocket Handbook: An Introduction to Better Photography (Verlan Books, New York: 1960) about (1) the way that studying Aesthetic Realism enhanced his perception (as photographer and critic) and (2) the need for the Siegel Theory of Opposites (see Is Beauty the Making One of Opposites?) to stimulate the progress of aesthetics in the field of photography. Herz writes:
My own approach to the art of photography is based on Aesthetic Realism, a practical philosophy with universal implications founded by the noted American poet and philosopher Eli Siegel, author of Hot Afternoons Have Been in Montana: Poems (Definition Press, 1957). Based on Siegel's Theory of Opposites, Aesthetic Realism deals with the making one of opposing forces in art, the world and in ourselves. For example, the deeper we look into the art of photography the more we discover about the uniting of such opposites as light and dark, foreground and background, the details and the picture as a whole. A successful photo will have beauty because of the way the photographer has related these and other opposites to each other. Siegel writes in Art As Life (Terrain Gallery, New York, 1957), "For art is the seeing of relation among objects, which while true to reality, expresses the attitude of an individual thing, a self." It is just this relation among objects and people that the photographer is always looking for in the everyday world around him...the right relation of what he feels inside about something he sees outside expressed with proper photographic technique (p. 13).
Having a viewpoint like Aesthetic Realism has been a distinct advantage to me in writing this book. Too often in photographic history, photography as a scientific technique and photography as an art have been painfully split. I have been encouraged to see these two as one, and that is the way I have tried to present them in this book (p. 14).
Too many person are unnecessarily frightened of art or of aesthetics, which is the study of what makes something have beauty, including a photograph. According to Aesthetic Realism...aesthetics is the study of how opposites become one to make a work of art have beauty. In a good candid portrait, for example, we are shooting for the fleeting expression of a moment, but we want this moment of 1/50 of a second, to show something of a person's whole life... (p. 117).
The strange and familiar are opposites that are very crucial in photography. We are always trying to shoot ordinary people or familiar objects in such a way as to make them look striking or strange. Also, photography can take a strange scene and give it such a sense of reality that you feel it is familiar, although you have never seen it before... (p. 117).
Perhaps the two most important opposites in composition are inclusion and exclusion. In photography we must constantly be aware of what will be in the picture and what must be left out... (p. 117).
As long as people feel you respect them and find them interesting and worthy of photographing, they will be pleased and at least passively cooperative....The candid photography of daily life again bears out the truth of Eli Siegel's well-known statement which is quoted as the motto of this chapter: "In reality opposites are one; art shows this." Candid photography is particularly concerned with the opposites of sameness and difference. The daily life of most persons has a great deal of sameness....The candid photography searches for a moment of difference within the sameness of daily life. The two must come together if the picture is to succeed. If the subject seems just different we will not be able to relate it to ourselves....It is [the] meaningful interweaving of the opposites of sameness and difference...that candid photographers are so eager to find (p. 139).
From Nat Herz, photographer and commentator, writing on the aesthetics of photography with Aesthetic Realism as his basis. Konica Pocket Handbook: An Introduction to Better Photography (Verlan Books, New York: 1960).-- samivel 17:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it is quite obvious that Michael Bluejay and a few others would like to eliminate me by "any means whatsoever."
Today it is by presenting false charges.
They were offered by Will BeBack a chance to comment on and have Wikipedians comment on the differences between their version and the version I regard as truthful but they have refused to comment.
Throughout the past months, as the archives will reveal, they have added whatever misrepresentations they please without any desire to discuss them honestly.
(See, for example, Bluejay's transparent scuttling of the attempt at mediation.)
So I do not believe I have anything to fear from the Wikipedia administration, because my attempt has been, always, to stick to facts and facts alone in this *encyclopedia* article.
They know I have been editing in good faith.
It is apparent that my "worthy opponents" do not want any more documentation of the fact that Aesthetic Realism is philosophy, ethics, and aesthetics, and would like to "eliminate me from the race."
To begin reviewing the differences between writing proposed by Outerlimits and Michael Bluejay--writing supported by CDThieme, Jonathunder, and Marinero, and the writing which I am proposing as more accurate, I will start with an analysis of one sentence.
This is a sentence in the first paragraph of this article. Its purpose is to give an accurate and brief description of one of the important concepts of Aesthetic Realism. We are now looking at two versions.
Here is Version #1: “The desire to have contempt—that is, to lessen the meaning of things in order to see one's self as superior--causes unhappiness and even insanity.”
This is what I think would be better: Version #2: “The desire to have contempt—that is, to lessen the meaning of things--causes guilt and hurts mind.”
First let’s look at the following phrase from Version #1: Contempt…“causes unhappiness and even insanity.” Aesthetic Realism shows that there is a line of continuity from ordinary contempt (for example, not listening when people speak, and putting them aside, because one assumes one knows better) to the highly charged state of mind which is psychosis--in which a person has put aside reality so fiercely that he or she is delusional. I believe that saying contempt…“causes unhappiness and even insanity” is too quick. It doesn't give enough weight or importance to either unhappiness or insanity, from which people suffer a great deal. And then consider how the cause of insanity or unhappiness is put-- “in order to see one’s self as superior.” This makes the explanation given by Aesthetic Realism sound insubstantial. How could this little cause be potent enough to cause that terror which is insanity?
Further, to say bluntly that contempt causes “unhappiness” in sentence #1—is this really what Aesthetic Realism says? After all, a person can be unhappy about the tragic earthquake in Kashmir. There are many external causes of sadness and pain, even while the aesthetic way of seeing them can make for a deep happiness because it goes for justice.
Version #2 claims less than Version #1 and is more accurate. To say that contempt “causes guilt and hurts mind” is a beginning point for finding out more. Here is the logic of this concept: “Guilt,” wrote Mr. Siegel, “is a result of insufficient liking of the world or a separation from it” (Self and World, p. 7). What, then, is the cause of guilt? “The pleasure of contempt,” he wrote, “is the “great opponent to the pleasure of knowing the world and, perhaps, liking it because one knows it” (Self and World, p. 7). “Contempt Hurts Mind” is the title of the first issue of The Right of Aesthetic Realism to Be Known on this subject (issue #133). It has these three points: “One, contempt is exceedingly popular; two, contempt weakens minds; three, contempt is the crucial cause of insanity” (see The Right Of no. 134). (Note the progression from ordinary, everyday contempt to the unusual contempt for reality that propels insanity.) As to the truth of this idea, Mr. Siegel points to a work on Freudian psychoanalysis: “The psychosis exhibits alone no compromise with reality, turns its back on reality, as it were” (Abraham A. Brill, quoted in Self and World, p. 10).
If I am right, and Version #2 does less to superficialize important philosophic ideas, we should have Version #2.-- samivel 23:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
We've probably had enough talking. Time for some editing. -- Tony Sidaway 16:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is suffering from the detritus of a previous edit war, and is in serious need of attention. beekman 19:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I certainly don't object to having fresh eyes look at the article, and I agree that improvements can be made. I'm taking a fairly hands-off approach myself, since as a critic of the group that promotes AR my presence is controversial. I want just enough input to make sure that the criticism gets a fair mention, and that the AR people don't turn the article into a big cheerleading piece, as has been done in the past. Whenever I touch the article there are objections. So I'll let other editors handle the other stuff. I'm looking forward to seeing how you and/or other can improve the article. Thanks, - MichaelBluejay 05:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Samivel, I'm glad to see you're concerned about other editors being "vicious" and "vilifying" others. Does that mean when we express perspectives different from your own you will no longer call us liars? - MichaelBluejay 02:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I recently attended a presentation on jazz at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation after learning about it from a friend in the music field. I have to admit I almost didn't go after goggling Aesthetic Realism and coming upon Michael Bluejay's site. If Aesthetic Realism is all those things he says it is, one has to wonder why anybody studies it! I half expected to find an auditorium full of zombies. But my friend (who has been to several events at the AR Foundation although he himself has never studied AR) assured me that the folk who do study it are rather intelligent people and very solid citizens. He insisted that I "go and see for myself" like he has done. He said he learns something that's new and thought-provoking with every program he attends and nobody has ever tried to recruit him. I'm really glad I listened to him. What an absolutely wonderful experience. Eli Siegel on jazz is simply amazing! I was astonished by the lucid description of opposites in every aspect of jazz--and wondered why I had never seen this before in my musical studies when Eli Siegel made it so obvious and, frankly, exciting. And what talent the presenters had. I didn't see any evidence at all of the cult characteristics Mr. Bluejay very lavishly describes on his web pages. And, by the way, the place was packed.
I'll probably go back to another program in the near future. One is coming up that includes a film of Eli Siegel teaching an Aesthetic Realism class and other films made about Aesthetic Realism over the years including a recent one of Siegel's prize poem "Hot Afternoons" read by Siegel himself. That I'd really like to see.
I also noted from the displays and literature that Aesthetic Realism speakers are being invited to address some pretty respected, mainline organizations and educational institutions all over the country (and indeed the world) these days. I must say, it impressed me--and I did find myself wondering why all these invitations would be extended if Aesthetic Realism was such a "cult." Certainly the folks doing the inviting have access to the internet too.
In any event, I started reading the talk pages on Aesthetic Realism in Wikipedia more closely when I got home and was stuck by the intensity of this running battle (accompanied with a great deal of acid and unenlightening heat, I'm afraid) between those who clearly value Aesthetic Realism and care for it and those who it seems to me will stop at nothing to tar and feather it. (I must say that the mean-spiritedness and take-no-prisoners approach of some of these anti-AR people makes me much less inclined to believe them. It seems to me very personal and quite small and gossipy--not really a thoughtful inquiry into the ideas of Aesthetic Realism at all.) So I'm just making my presence and initial observations known. Thought it might be helpful to others like myself navigating this maze of charge and counter-charge. I might share some further thoughts in the future as I find out more about Aesthetic Realism from the perspective of a casual observer and novice. But I definitely don't intend to get myself bogged down in all the nasty stuff that is going on here. -- digital scribe 14:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey, A Perey, did you also wear a fake nose and glasses when you typed this?
The probable sock puppet wrote:
Really? Here are examples of some of the supposed "mean-spiritedness" posted on my (Bluejay's) site -- each one written by a different former member:
In fact, it's the *AR people* who best demonstrate mean-spiritedness, responding to their critics by insulting them and calling them liars. From the pro-AR "Countering the Lies" website:
So we're supposed to believe that an independent third party would look at both sites and come to the conclusion that *mine* is the one that's bitter and nasty? Please. -- MichaelBluejay 01:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Wow. It is unbelievable to me that an objective first impression of AR can so quickly elicit from its enemies the suspicion that it comes from a disguised Aesthetic Realist trying to pull a fast one. Amazing.
To the person who awarded me a doctorate I don’t have—thank you very much. And to Mr. Bluejay: you have the absolute right to make your case and perhaps you’re right, although I have yet to see evidence of it. I’m just calling it as I see it. I’m sure someone on the other side of the debate from you could select an entirely different set of quotes from the Friends web site and from yours and make exactly the opposite point. I just think that a whole web site dedicated to labeling AR as a cult is by definition negative and it’s hard for me to understand why you would even resist that idea. It seems to me from looking over your web site that you’ve dedicated a good deal of time and energy to tearing Aesthetic Realism down, sprinkling in here and there a few words that manage to damn it with the faintest of praise. That’s my overall impression but I suppose every reader will have to decide for himself or herself as the case may be.
Anyway, as I wrote the last time I visited here, I don’t want to get into the midst of the bickering and nastiness. I did go to the film event at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation on 8-13-06 as I mentioned I likely would. This was my second visit there (the first being the jazz program which favorably impressed me). Here are a few of my observations about the film event:
• First, a surprisingly large crowd. The line stretched double-wide clear around the corner. Some people couldn’t get in but I was lucky.
• Second, Ken Kimmelman is definitely a talented guy. His films were both funny and revealing and I found them to be very artistic. They are imaginative and surprisingly moving. He explained the technique he uses in making his films in a very understandable way. And he showed how Siegel’s idea about opposites is in play in every artistic decision he makes in his productions. He’s won a lot of awards for his films, including an Emmy. So he’s pretty well thought of.
• Third, I liked his most recent film of Eli Siegel’s poem “Hot Afternoons.” The relations Eli Siegel makes in that epic-like poem are natural and yet surprising. I hadn’t read the poem before and I felt like it was giving me an introduction to the history of the world in about fifteen minutes. The film itself was visually superb. One of the standouts in it for me were the expressive faces of the Native Americans. You really felt they were deep, thoughtful people. Native Americans are usually seen so superficially. I also liked the scene in which a graceful bird flying in the sky fades into two old double wing prop planes chugging along in the air uncertainly. This illustrated Siegel’s line: “That bird, how sweet and graceful it is…Could we ever do that? Machines that fly are clumsy and ugly.” But the line: “There are millions of men in the world and each is one man. Each is one man by himself taking care of himself all the time, and changing other men and being changed by them” was the most memorable for me. At that point the camera panned into a crowd of people walking in the street and finally settled on one particular man. I began wondering who that guy was and what he was thinking at that moment—where before he was just a face in the crowd. I would definitely recommend seeing this film to anybody.
• Fourth, I was, of course, curious to see the much maligned Eli Siegel himself teaching one of his classes in another of Kimmelman’s films. It was from the 1960’s and so it was done in black and white. It aired once on local NYC public television in the late 60’s. The impression one would get from some people is that Eli Siegel was a master showman and skilled hypnotist who “took in” many unsuspecting people. So I was expecting a dazzling, magnetic personality; charismatic in the extreme. What I saw was a rather soft-spoken and plain-dressing gentleman, who looked much like my own grandfather, reasoning with people about their lives in a thoughtful fashion and asking some very thought-provoking questions. Clearly this was a man of thought. He was sharp, insightful and funny. I especially liked the way he spoke to one young woman who couldn’t see how her parents were like her. It made me think about my own parents a bit differently. He also appeared rather kind to me. From what I saw I certainly didn’t feel that he deserves all the rancor that has come his way on the internet and elsewhere. In fact, his propositions seemed worthy of further inquiry to my mind.
• Fifth, Kimmelman’s film The Heart Knows Better, based on a statement about racism by Eli Siegel, was terrific! I can see why it won an Emmy award. I didn’t get it exactly but Siegel’s quote was something about how the aorta in every person is the same and you can’t tell, when you are looking just at it, if it is from a white person, an Asian person, a black person or a Hispanic person.
• Sixth, I couldn’t help but notice the endorsement of Kimmelman’s films (and by extension the Aesthetic Realism philosophy they are based on) by mainstream organizations like the UN, which funded one of his films, and the National Homeless Coalition, which sponsored another.
• Seventh, there was a tastefully done wine and cheese reception following the screenings. I stayed for only a short while during which time I spoke with a couple from England and their daughter. She had heard about Aesthetic Realism from one of her college professors during a lecture and had looked into it further on the internet. She liked what she read so much that she told her parents about it. They said that since they had planned on vacationing in America anyway, they scheduled their trip to New York to coincide with this event. They were headed out of town to Washington DC that afternoon to do some sightseeing.
• Eighth, once again nobody descended upon me to suck me into the “cult.”
I’d really like to find something downbeat to say about the experience so that the people who like to give an unflattering take on AR won’t award me with another doctorate or just dismissively lump me in with the “mindless” and “criticism adverse” AR crowd! We all view the world; rather unfortunately I think, through the blurred lens of our own prejudices and untested presumptions. That surely includes me too. But there really isn’t anything negative I can think of to say—and that’s not because I wasn’t looking. It was, all in all, a delightful afternoon. While it didn’t make me want to rush out and join up with AR, it definitely did make me more favorably disposed toward it and therefore more inclined to take some of the more blatently negative comments with a healthy dose of skepticism. -- digital scribe 21:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The probably sock-puppet wrote:
Right, and a whole website called COUNTERING THE LIES established to call its critics LIARS is somehow NOT negative. Right.
As for cherry-picking the quotes, the MOST critical voices on my site don't come ANYWHERE CLOSE to the level of hostility and rage that the AR/CTL folks have directed at me and others. You want to argue your point? Then find something nice on Countering the Lies said about me or the other critics. It doesn't exist.
And if you're not THE Arnold Perey, you're certainly an AR-ist. You all write the same way, it's so transparent that it jumps off the page at the reader. It's amazing to me that the AR people aren't aware of how incredibly obvious this is to everyone else. Whoever you are, you've lost the ability to write like a non-ARist.
You're also probably not aware of the clues you left on Wikipedia that are as obvious as an elephant in the bathroom that you're actually Dr. P.
Anyway, you say you're someone else? Fine, I'm game, I'll play: I'm Michael Bluejay, 2605 Oaklawn, Austin, Texas 78722, 512-322-0638. Exactly who are you? - MichaelBluejay 15:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I placed this tag under the discussion of homexsexuality because the claimed "fact" about reverting to heterosexuality remains controversial today, and AE can not escape its past. Bearian 01:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
This is my first visit back to the Wiki entry on Aesthetic Realism in a year, since the last time I attended an event at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation and decided to post some of my personal observations about it after reading this article. My girlfriend and I attended another event there just last Sunday so I thought I’d find my way back here to write some further reflections.
Surprisingly, I saw for the first time the two postings about my last remarks that appear a little bit above. The writers seem to have very active imaginations and to be rather strong conspiracy theorists, casting me (completely erroneously, I might add, for any who really care) as a “sock puppet” or a phony “average Joe.” One of these fine folks thinks it is “as obvious as an elephant in a bathroom” that my initials are AP. That would surprise my mother, who named me, even more than she would be surprised by finding an elephant in a bathroom!
In any event, there is one thing I am happy to agree with them about. "Enough nonsense!" Here then are a few more of my avowedly “man on the street” impressions for anyone who cares to read them.
This particular program was called “Rock ‘n’ Roll, the Opposites & Our Greatest Hopes—a Celebration!” And was it a celebration! The boisterous, cheering crowd was so huge that it stretched out the door and a repeat performance (to come this October) had to be announced at intermission for all of those who just couldn’t get inside. Having been to a few other such programs at the AR Foundation, I knew enough to get there in plenty of time in order to get a seat!
The popularity of this particular program, in my opinion, was well deserved. The performance was “high class” in every way, and extremely professional. And the juxtaposition of the music with verbal explanations of it from the vantage point of aesthetics was not only wonderfully educational but also added so much more emotion and appreciation to one’s hearing of the actual songs when they were then performed. Two of my favorites were “Rag Doll,” sung by Kevin Fennell and others, and “You’re So Vain,” sung by Ann Richards and others. Many of the male singers expressed heartfelt gratitude for their marriages and, when Timothy Lynch did so, and then sung “Can’t Take My Eyes Off of You,” the depth and conviction of his feeling actually brought tears to my eyes even though I don't know the happy couple.
AR makes a great deal of the opposites, which, as I take it, it understands to be the basic stuff of existence. The speakers/singers who spoke about and performed popular rock n’ roll songs such as “Earth Angel” and “Runaround Sue” tried to illustrate the AR concept that beauty is composed of opposites that have been “made one,” and that people as such are also trying to make the same opposites one in them and can be instructed by art how to do it.
There was a deep and impressive explanation given for John Phillips’ (of Mamas and Papas fame) song “Monday, Monday.” When the singers asked about what this confusing song actually means in an Aesthetic Realism Class (and pointed out that John Phillips himself said he didn’t know), the person teaching the class explained to them that it is about how a person starts out fresh every morning hoping for good things but then discovers that some of the same old things they don’t like about themselves still get in the way and frustrate their hopes. After hearing this explanation I felt as if I was listening to the song (which I’ve always loved) for the first time when it was then sung. The words fit the explanation to a tee in my opinion—and I also realized they were about things I have felt as well and that maybe that is why I liked it so much.
There was also a presentation of a lesson that a rock musician once had directly with Eli Siegel which was really fascinating. Eli Siegel spoke to him about how Rock ‘n’ Roll puts private and public together and you could really see by his answers and demeanor how this particular person was struggling to do exactly that. And then, as the program went on and different songs were performed, the singers explained how each song was also about private and public. The logic seemed sound to me, and very, very interesting.
I enjoyed it and everybody else who was there seemed to enjoy it too. Aside from one couple who I saw leaving at the intermission (for reasons unknown and probably quite innocent), the audience was really into the music as well as the explanation of it. Considering that it was a hot, humid August afternoon in Manhattan—the kind you like to spend sipping lemonade (or something stronger) in your nice air-conditioned apartment---I’m glad I made the extra effort to be there. I’m not into music all that much. That’s my girlfriend’s passion. But I really had a good time. Whenever I’ve gone to the AR Foundation I’ve found it to be decidedly worthwhile.
I’ll do more posting here the next time I decide to attend a program at the AR Foundation. user: digital scribe 17:51 15 August 2007 (UTC)
One of the organization's main claims to fame was its assertion that it successfully converted homosexuals to heterosexuals. For that reason it belongs in Category:Ex-gay movement. If anyone can think of a better category then that's fine too. But it is inappropriate to remove it from the category tree entirely. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Getting back to basics, let's see what pops up in a search:
That 1995 source characterizes it as the secular school of the ex-gay movement.
·:·
Will Beback
·:·
07:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, Siegel and his followers believed that homosexuality was an illness “caused” by self-contempt. As early as the mid-’40s, some members claimed they had converted to heterosexuality through the foundation’s teachings. In 1971, in what could be viewed as a precursor to the current ex-gay movement, three counselors began specifically working with homosexual men, many of whom were married off to female members, most of whom were lesbians.
In the ’70s AR heavily promoted the myth that they could convert people from gay to straight. Members appeared on talk shows, and AR placed full-page ads in the New York Times, Washington Post and The Los Angeles Times that listed the names of those who had “changed.” New York’s Gay Activist Alliance responded by infiltrating [or “zapping”] their meetings at their Greene Street headquarters and passing out pro-gay literature with accurate information. In return, AR members claimed that they were victims being “persecuted” by GAA.
As late as 1986, AR published vehemently anti-gay tomes. Until the mid-1990s, AR members wore buttons that read “Victims of the Press.”
Feelings of persecution, intolerance of criticism, slavish devotion to a leader, a belief that only they know the one true path to enlightenment—these are distinguishing characteristics of a cult.
Many ex-members of the group, including those supposedly “converted” to heterosexuality, contribute horror stories to a web site put together by Michael Bluejay, who was a child member of the group and whose own grandmother was one of those who was allegedly “converted.” (The web site is michaelbluejay.com.)
“AR no longer gives counseling sessions to try to ‘cure’ homosexuality,” Bluejay told The Blade. “They still believe that homosexuality is a psychological deficit caused by one’s contempt for the world—they have to continue believing this, because Eli Siegel said so—but it's not a part of their curriculum any more. And they avoid talking about it as much as possible—to the point of even seeming to deny that they ever had such a thing as a gay cure.”
However, they remain privately homophobic. Their official position, as laid out in an e-mail from Friends of Aesthetic Realism (which runs a web site, Countering the Lies, to respond to criticism of the group) is: “Aesthetic Realism does not see homosexuality as a ‘sickness’ or something to ‘cure.’” On this same site AR executive director Margo Carpenter claims that “AR is for full, equal civil rights for everyone.” She labels claims that AR offers a cure for homosexuality as a “hoard of lies.”
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |year=
/ |date=
mismatch (
help); Unknown parameter |coauthur=
ignored (
help)There's a source defining the meaning of "ex-gay". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)