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For those who want to see the history of discussion, click on the history tab. This page at 31kb was getting too long. There is enough controversy on it to call for a fresh beginning.
It is hoped that the writers who contribute to this page are true critics. As Constantin von Hoffmeister writes--in the words of Matthew Arnold a true critic's job as "to see the object as in itself it really is."
-- Aperey 20:16, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Streamlining what had become an onerous article much appreciated--I removed a subjective passage that did not add to the understanding of Aesthetic Realism.
I removed the comment on Michael Bluejay's motives--the discussion should focus on the veracity of the issues raised, not on the person. Readers can draw their own conclusions about the state of mind of the various participants.
I don't mind the attack on my motives in the article. I have no problem letting the other side air their complaints about their primary critic. Since the section in question covers how AR deals with its critics, this is a primary source of how they do so, and thus I believe adds much value to the article. So I'll add the attack on me back to the article.
If you really feel it's inappropriate for the article, let's talk about it. I doubt you'd change my mind, but I'm willing to listen. Michaelbluejay 03:15, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Using the ad hominem attack from an AR supporter to demonstrate a modus operandi of the group is an interesting angle. I will leave it alone, then.
Since each AR supporter has his own view, and the particular supporter you quote says things that most others don't, I will remove it.
Hello,
I have received a mail from Arnold Perey concerning this article. May I recommand that you seek help from the Wikipedia:Mediation Committee ? thanks Anthere
In looking at the procedures to initiate mediation, I see that it is necessary that both editing parties wish it. I do wish mediation. I hope that Michael Bluejay also does. I am hereby submitting my request and will message mediators about it. -- 66.114.86.135 21:42, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
This is editorializing and is not supported by any AR text I've seen. Can the writer show a text? If not, it should be edited out, no?
First of all, I welcome outside help with this article, so it's not just a war between AR supporters and their most vocal critic (me). I spent a lot of time reading the various methods of resolution on Wikipedia and I'm not sure which one(s) I should pursue. I would welcome mediation but I'm not certain whether we're allowed to go to that point before trying other methods. The documentation about resolution methods is verbose and I just spent a lot of time reading it and I'm having a hard time keeping it all in my head.
Oh, I see that another party has agreed to mediation. Great, let's go for it. I'm confident that third party help will result in a fair article.
Whoa, wait a minute, here's why it's representative: It's on the Aesthetic Realists' _Countering the Lies_ website! They obviously feel it represents them well or they wouldn't have put it there. If they don't feel it's representative they're free to take it down, but so long as they hold this up as a good example of countering their critics, then I think it should be treated as such.
Also, obviously not everybody has the same exact opinion. That's not the point. This is simply an _example_ of such an opinion (and I think it's a pretty good example).
Um, how about in the article itself? :) The quote therein says:
If that's not nearly immortal I don't know what is.
I think there was also another quote in the article about how _Self and World_ was supposedly greater than Shakespeare and the Bible, but if so then it's been edited out. It's from one of their books, and it's on my website. Finally, I published on my site the testimony of a former student who said, "While I was in AR, I did believe that Eli Siegel was greater than Christ...It would have been accurate to say I 'worshipped' him."
So I don't think this is 'editorializing', I think it's backed up by the facts.
Can't wait for the mediation. --Michael Bluejay
Anthere asked me to come by and see if everybody would agree to having me serve as a neutral mediator to help you come to a mutually-agreeable solution to your disagreement? I haven't thoroughly read over the talk pages or archives yet, so I'm not very familiar with the disagreement, but please feel free to contact me on my talk page or by email at clockworksoul AT optonline DOT net. – Clockwork Soul 05:45, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes, yes, please help us mediate! I left a note on your Talk page. Michaelbluejay 07:34, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
The current article has gotten a bit verbose, and, at times, off track. I deleted some redundant passages, and made other minor changes to tighten up the language.
The first paragraph needs a major reworking--the opening line does not tell us what AR is.
In keeping with the way the controvery over John Kerry's military service was moved to a separate category--while there is a straightforward account of Kerry's life under his name--I have moved the whole "Criticisms / Objections" section to a new category, " Criticisms / Objections As to Aesthetic Realism." There, it can be dealt with a more length.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy
AR supporters have one opinion of AR and I, as a critic, have another. Fine. The difference is that I'd still like this article to be a legitimate encyclopaedia entry while AR prefers to excise criticism and insert ridiculous POV cheerleading. Here's an example of how Aperey described a link to the site which tries to rebut critics like me:
This is SO RIDICULOUSLY POV it's not even funny. I call on the Wikipedia community to help me combat this nonsense. I can't do it alone. I've requested mediation but I don't know when that process will start. Thanks, Michaelbluejay 05:28, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
It is not right for Mr. Bluejay to use Wikipedia as a platform to attack a legitimate philosophy and the professional people who study and teach it--doctors, artists, persons in the social sciences, teachers, homemakers, and more. I hope that anyone who wants to deal with this situation reads carefully and is not in a hurry.
Mr. Bluejay's attacks (take a look at the history of this page) are far too numerous for me create a legitimate article and hope it stays put. I have written and rewritten, only to find the saboteur at work again.
That is why mediation is necessary--at least to begin getting a just article.
I can rewrite till the end of time if need be to have the truth win out over obvious "bad-mouthing."
Apparently Mr. Bluejay wants to use Wikipedia's terms in his attack, such as the above "This is SO RIDICULOUSLY POV;" and in doing this he is ever so transparent. In fact, he is promoting his own, obviously NOT NEUTRAL, point of view.
Yes, as one Wikipedian wrote to me, everyone has the right to his opinion even if it is delusional. But no one has the right to suppress what another believes to be true, as Mr. Bluejay has tried to do to my writing.
He has censored me--unfortunately--and cried out that he was censored because I, hastily, deleted links that led to his libelous website. And later have tried to add paragraphs describing what I know to be true, often using legitimate and authoritiative sources. Further, I have tried to put what is unimportant in its proper place, and what is important and central in its place. But this is not allowed?
There has been no dialogue--just Mr. Bluejay's and a few others' peremptory comments, deletions, and substitutions. Democratic? No. Authoritarian? Yes.
This should change.
The "Big Lie" technique, in which you tell a lie so big that it intimidates people, and you tell it again and again, has been used in history. This is his technique and those who are sustaining lies about Aesthetic Realism.
Apparently Mr. Bluejay is afraid of mediation--writing "I've requested mediation but I don't know when that process will start"--and wants to do something else to preempt it.
There should be a real dialogue. Mr. Bluejay wants a fait accompli with his own version in place--badly misrepresenting a real history, an important philosophy, and honest people who teach it.
So I have set some facts before you.
-- Aperey 15:32, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
The first thing I want both of you Michaelbluejay and Aperey to do is thoroughly read our NPOV policy. Then I want you to both make sure, every time you write something on a discussion page, to sign and also use : at the begining to indent. The more :'s you put, the greater the indentation. The best way to resolve disputes over article content is to back up your edits with sources. You copy and paste the URL from the site and put [ ] around it, as opposed to [[ ]] for internal wiki links. You need to discuss all this on the talk page before editing/reverting the article and reach a consensus. Making attacks on each other solves nothing. You need to carefully explain your edits, using sources, and maintain NPOV in the article. It is good to put the opinions from all sides in an article, as long as you point out that it is "their opinion", or "so and so has claimed." I don't personally know anything about this topic, so I can't help edit it, but hopefully my advice has helped. Do not break the 3 revert rule. If someone is a troll or a vandal then you can request to have them blocked, but it must be shown that they are. Write to me on my talk page if you want more help. -- Silversmith 17:14, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I deleted the part that argued that people angry with the philosophy itself have attacked Aesthetic Realism--the argument sets up a straw man, and does not add to the understanding of Aesthetic Realism.
In Wikipedia "Words to Avoid" we have this instruction from the administration: don't say "X is a cult" See Words to Avoid. This phrase ought to be deleted from the article. It is a hideous lie.
The last section of the article states: "Meanwhile, the furtherance of these scientific and humanistic goals, which Aesthetic Realism stands for preeminently, has angered some individuals. These have worked to disparage this new education with pejoratives."
The anger described (if referring to Michael Bluejay's site) is erringly ascribed to the furtherance of the goals of AR. It's the method of furthering these goals that has angered some folks. Bluejay's site is clear on the distinction.
Meanwhile, the persons who now study and teach Aesthetic Realism have responded to Michael Bluejay by saying that the "methods" he attributes to Aesthetic Realism are, in fact, not true but exactly what the paragraph describes: "dispargement" and "pejoratives." Former students of Aesthetic Realism, who have had no connection with it for many years, have also written descriptions of their past study of Aesthetic Realism which take exception with Michael Bluejay and call into question his accuracy and impartiality.
If somebody titled a website "The Polio Vaccine is a Fake" I think it is only fair to let people know it's an opinion, not a fact. They shouldn't have to find out the hard way.
P.S. removing the NPOV sign. Who is this James M. Lane to dictate what is and what isn't neutral voice? His own writing is remarkably non-neutral in tone as a rule.
One of them, Elijah Cummings, is a politician from Baltimore, Siegel's birthplace. I'd guess he issued some sort of proclamation or official letter without giving it much thought, like the pols described in this link that keeps disappearing from the ext links even though it's a highly informative article about Aesthetic Realism that quotes people on both sides. Not that I'm suggesting we should link to it that way, but we should link to it. Meanwhile, what was the context of the Cummings quotation? Did a reporter ask him about his intellectual influences, and he volunteered Siegel's name? Or did constituents ask him to send a feel-good type letter about the subject, and he adopted language they suggested without doing much investigation? JamesMLane 04:41, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
If I removed it, it was my clumsiness. I have no intention of doing so. It is a low point in tabloid journalism--constructed to give a false impression while having the appearance of "objectivity" to the unwary reader. Some of its techniques are pointed out in "Friends of Aesthetic Realism--Countering the Lies." I have written a paragraph by paragraph analysis but haven't posted it yet. It is, however, transparent enough in its bias to be unpersuasive.
I do not expect to engage much in these discussions, but I will be watching. -- Aperey 15:01, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Interesting dispute. I read the Jewish Times article. It seemed to me it was written by a zealous reporter who had a point of view. She seemed to want to discredit Eli Siegel in order to embarrass city officials and burnish her credentials as a hotshot "investigative" reporter. While she quotes a very flippant remark made about Eli Siegel by Max Gordon, she doesn't balance that quote with any made by people like William Carlos Williams and other third-parties quoted in the Wikipedia entry about Aesthetic Realism that show a rather high regard for Siegel or at least some intellectual acknowledgement of him as a serious thinker. I find it hard to believe the thesis of this article that city officials just automatically issue proclamations without some basis in fact for it. The article also contains many quotes from ex-students of the group slamming Aesthetic Realism but almost none from ex-students with more positive points of view--though they clearly exist and have, in fact, written statements on Aesthetic Realism's "countering the lies" site. The members of Aesthetic Realism quoted in the article do sound quite gushing. But I wonder if they are being fairly quoted or only quoted selectively to make them sound that way. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody that the bias of a reporter can cause him or her to "tailor" a story in a way that might not be completely accurate. I'll look forward to the analysis from Aperey. I don't know too much about Aesthetic Realism but this dispute makes me curious and I think I'll try to find out more about it for myself without relying on filtered information from either its enthralled supporters or its axe-grinding detractors.
This quote has no cited source:
Can we please get one before adding it back? Also, I removed some unsourced assertions surrounding it. Thanks, - Willmcw 21:15, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
While I don't intend to fiddle around with the entry on Aesthetic Realism, not knowing all that much about it, I do object to the use of the word "killed" in describing how Eli Siegel died. My father choose to end his life with dignity at an advanced age when his health had badly eroded and he was in fierce pain. I would be very angry if people went around describing that rational (and I believe wise) decision as him "killing" himself. It seems the persons involved in Aesthetic Realism feel likewise--and understandly so. The anti-Aesthetic Realism folk are the ones insisting on this language and that should tell you everything you need to know about how accurate or appropriate the use of this word is. "Ended his life" seems far more descriptive of what actually happened and is hardly a euphemism. That's how I would describe how my Dad passed away. We don't go around saying Jackie Kennedy "killed" herself, do we? I'd be pleased if somebody would fix this. (- not signed)
"Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy founded by poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941. Among the public it is best known for statements that some of its adherents had "changed from homosexuality" as a result of their study. In 1990, the Aesthetic Realism Foundation discontinued this aspect of the philosophy's study because of what it described as the "atmosphere of anger" surrounding the subject which made impartial, philosophic discussion of Aesthetic Realism itself difficult. [1] ( http://www.counteringthelies.com/m_carpenter.html)
"Its adherents find the Aesthetic Realism point of view of art more significant: the Terrain Gallery was founded in 1955 with the publication of Eli Siegel's "Is Beauty the Making One of Opposites?" then reprinted in The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism and elsewhere. Among still others, including the critics Kenneth Rexroth and William Packard, Eli Siegel was best known for his poetry and his literary criticism."
Take for example a person who doesn't like Chaucer but never read more than a few lines. Then that person comes to love Chaucer because a good teacher explained the poetry cogently, factually, and made its beauty felt. For "Chaucer" read "the world" and you have a sense of how Aesthetic Realism enables a person to care for the world more. It isn't "adherence" but study. -- Aperey 17:35, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I added some documentation. There is more.
The fact is the Aesthetic Realism Foundation is not a philosophy but a school--this makes things a little different from the common way of thinking about a philosophy. Knowledge is transmitted, including about anthropology (which I teach), poetry, acting, and other subjects which are part of the curriculum. The education process is not really included in the term "adherent." It sounds more like geting glued to something than assimilating knowledge from it. (I say this with adequate awareness of the common usage of the term "adherent," I hope.) --
Cheers, -- Aperey 22:47, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In a 1944 article in the Baltimore Sun, Donald Kirkley referred to the immense national popularity of "Hot Afternoons Have Been in Montana" in 1925 as "a flood of publicity." In fact, the title "Hot Afternoons Have Been in Montana" was so well known that it is quoted in Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (edition to follow if needed).
Donald Kirkley wrote this about Mr. Siegel--
That principle was, "The world, art, and self explain each other: each is the aesthetic oneness of opposites." It is the basis of Aesthetic Realism. And writing about Siegel in 1925, after the Nation Poetry Prize:
Cheers, Aperey (Arnold Perey)
"Sweeping the nation" implies a popularity on the order of hula hoops, the macarena, or pet rocks. A "flood of publicity" (as demonstrated by an article in the Baltimore Sun) and a quotation in Bartlett's do not add up to "sweeping the nation". - Outerlimits 20:26, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
After posting the merge tags some days ago I have now proceeded to merge back the "Criticism" section. We need to edit it all together or there will be too much duplication. We want to get one good comprehensive article. Cheers, - Willmcw 20:57, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
I still think that the development of Aesthetic Realism as a philosophy ought to be taken chronologically. There are the 20s, then of course 1941, then 1955, and then the later events.
It is not correct to call Eli Siegel a "minor" poet. Fame does not make a poet major or minor. Southey was very famous in his day but seen as minor today. Van Gogh was major--but as an artist he did not sell any of his paintings. It is the power of Siegel's poetry that makes him major. And people who really know poetry saw this: a great poet himself, W.C. Williams; William Packard, the critic of poetry who founded The New York Review; NY Times reviewer Kenneth Rexroth, and others.
I cut some paragraphs I wrote much earlier because they no longer seemed relevant. I also trimmed some others' writing where it seemed to me either too awkward or really too "editorialized" to pass inspection.
As to the two sections on homosexuality, I tried to keep the first exactly as it was, and in the "Objections" section to interleave the Bluejay contribution with Margot Carpenter's response. Because of the Aesthetic Realism Foundation's desire not to be involved in an "atmosphere of anger" I changed nothing that seemed important to the writer. If something needs to be restored to its previous state, which I might have changed, go ahead.
The Marvin Mondlin statement seemed unnecessary in terms of sticking to the topic.
I think it is fairer to have a title "Objections to Aesthetic Realism and Some Responses to the Objections" -- because we need to have symmetry in these controversial matters. -- Aperey 20:20, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I am not for "peans" to "ineffability"--Bluejay made it necessary to show that the opinion stated by Ellen Reiss is one that has been felt for decades by the people who knew Siegel best. Because Bluejay quotes Ellen Reiss (out of context I might add) for the purpose of making her opinion seem isolated, so he can make the reader think he is right to say Aesthetic Realism is a cult (which it isn't). Bluejay wrote this:
It is necessary to quote others to show that, just possibly, Reiss is talking factually about a real person whom others saw the same qualities in. (There are more than those whom I quoted). If these two paragraphs by Bluejay are no longer in the article, it wouldn't be necessary to show Reiss is not in isolation. Maybe we could get on with the business of really saying what the Aesthetic Realism philosophy is.
Bluejay also wants to focus on the obvious fact that the press has largely ignored Aesthetic Realism, and use it to say I and others are "cultists" and are paranoid to say the press has been unfair. That's why it's necessary to give the reader a chance to understand why the press has put aside this philosophy (except for one or two tabloid-quality stories Bluejay's reprinting). It's a fact that there has been a fear of the size of Siegel's philosophy--including its uncompromising belief in human equality--and the respect that this philosophy engenders. The reader has a right to know why a philosophy thought great by a significant number of people is not well known.
The "belittlers" as Bready calls them want to say it's the fault of the philosophy and/or the people who care about it, that they aren't so good: they're deluded. Either the "belittlers" are right, or there is something wrong with how the majority of the press, the academic world, and even the critics see Aesthetic Realism. I think it's the latter. And all the facts--when they are presented, and not censored--will show that.
Ponder this -- (as to "major" and "minor" in art and poetry) -- If you told an Elizabethan that William Shakespeare was the greatest poet the English language had ever seen, you'd be pooh-poohed--the average academic didn't think that way during his lifetime. It took a couple of hundred years for his greatness to be recognized. If you were talking to a Bluejay you might be called a "cultist." I think it wasn't till Coleridge wrote about Shakespeare that the literary world began to get an inkling that he was really important. And Coleridge was a "nonconformist"(This can be verified).
Think of this too -- Vermeer was not recognized as a great artist--one of the greatest of all time, we think today--until several hundred years AFTER he died. The critics missed his value. He was seen as one of the minor Dutch masters by the best critics until, I think the time of Proust--who loved Vermeer. I can get exact references for this--it's real history.
To be a true critic of one's contemporaries is one of the hardest things going. Academic critics aren't so good at this. Williams was. We have to see Siegel as he will be seen historically. The tendency to make the value of an artist or scientist depend on contemporary "influence" is wrong. How many footnotes refer to him, etc. Mendel's discovery of the gene almost went into oblivion when he died. (Even though his paper on this discovery was published in his lifetime its importance wasn't recognized until much later -- I can get references for this too). Siegel is major -- very, very major. I've studied enough poetry, compared the musical power of his lines to enough poetry (major, minor, and bad) to be quite sure of this. Others have, too, and they represent the opinion that will be seen as true. Williams questioned the perception of the critics in his time....We should try to have as large a perspective as he had.
This matter of mayor and minor is not a "quickie" to be solved by the snap of a finger. Study is necessary. And if that's what it takes to make Wikipedia a really good encyclopedia--including fairness to Aesthetic Realism and its founder--isn't that what we should do? -- Aperey 18:52, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Eli Siegel is certainly a minor poet. [N.B.: Although I don't like to engage in a debate like this, you are quite wrong. -- AP]If future ages come to esteem him as highly as we do Shakespeare, they can edit the article accordingly. Until that halcyon day, Siegel will have to be content to be what he is, rather than what he could be, if for some reason his importance is reevaluated. Your comparisons are symptomatic of the problem you have in coming to a realistic assessment of Siegel's literary importance - which is more-or-less none. He's not Shakespeare, he's not Coleridge, he's not Vermeer. He hasn't left behind him a corpus of literary works remotely comparable to the works of any of these. Our "fairness" here ought to be to the truth (and to those who wish to be informed), not to what Aesthetic Realism and its founder would wish to be the truth, and you should not distort the truth to your ends. The "issue" of whether Eli Siegel is a "major" poet doesn't require much study at all: he appears in no anthologies of major poets. [Again, quite wrong. -- AP][Quite right, actually] We need to report that. Meanwhile, if you want to continue to heap largely undeserved praise on your hero, claiming it is a response to Michael Bluejay, then that response belongs down in the article where it would actually be a response, rather than at the beginning, where it distorts Siegel's actual importance. - Outerlimits 21:00, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
HERE ARE MY NOTES IN REPLY AND OUTERLIMITS' REPLIES TO THEM:
OUTERLIMITS REPLIES TO AP NOTES
(AP says: Again, although I do not want to engage in debete, Outerlimits, I don't want a reader to think you might be correct. Try Selden Rodman's 100 American poems; masterpieces of lyric, epic and ballad from pre-colonial times to the present. ISBN: B00005V9XN (1948 and 1972).
And there are more anthologies of major poets in which Siegel appears.
However, as I said earlier, this is not the criterion for the value of either a critic or a poet. The compilers of anthologies etc. are as subject to human error today as they were in the past. -- Arnold Perey)
Whew, what a discource! I'm still not sure why the prominence of Siegel as a poet matters to our article on Aesthetic Realism. However, setting that question aside, I have recently done a comprehensive search of all 350+ Internet references to Eli Siegel that Google reports (a few dozen to other people). Only two (yes, two) of them were to significant references by non-AR consultants. (Also two hits to archives of magazines in the early 1970s, one which printed a couple of his poems and one which had some kind of review.) While I don't know what the definition of "minor poet" is, my (original) is strong evidence that Siegel is a forgotten poet outside of the AR world. Obviously we can't cite this in the article but anyone arguing that Siegel is non-minor poet has a heavy burden of proof. (And again, for the purposes of this article I can't see why Siegel's prominence as a poet matters - this is a philosophy article, not a poet's biography). Cheers, - Willmcw 07:59, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
I am writing quickly now as I just saw your post, so I can't give you references and so on. But "Hot Afternoons" was one of the first forms of Aesthetic Realism--it's a philosophic poem that says that things in the world are more related than you know. A hot afternoon in Montana is related to the whole world--to monks in Europe, to Aristotle by the Aegean, to Native Americans "thinking, feeling, trying pleasurably to live...." to a bird flying.... and much more. Mr. Siegel called this poem "The Scientific Criticism" given light and heat. It shows people are all related to one another and is a hymn to equality and mutual understanding. So these three are crucial in the development of Aesthetic Realism: "The Equality of Man," "The Scientific Criticism," and "Hot Afternoons Have Been in Montana." They are, respectively, a way of seeing people as equals, a way of seeing and criticising art--and the world as a whole: economics, history, and more; and a poetic (or artistic) way of seeing people and the world: a way that is both logical and passionate as all art needs to be. Everything in Aesthetic Realism as a mature philosophy developed from the core ideas in these three early works--and each is great in its own way--and continued in Mr. Siegel's ongoing critical, poetic, and humanistic endeavors for the next 50 years.
Yes, I think there can be a paragraph or two making this clear. Is this what you had in mind? -- Aperey 20:32, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Mr. Siegel did describe it. And Ellen Reiss, who is a critic, has written about the meaning of the poem. There are very good sources. -AP
The above is what I wrote. -- Aperey 19:52, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I can't find the reference where Conrad Arensberg compares AR to structuralism. This section seems rather long. Where is the Arensberg comparison, and why is it so important? Thanks - Willmcw 00:12, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
The Arensberg reference is not imporant. I took it out.
Please note, Willmcw, the ugly way Outerlimits took the article and inserted editorializing POV arising from malice. I reverted the article back to a cleaner previous version.
What can be done?
You might stop imputing ugly motives. That would be one thing that could be done. You might reread what you're adding and consider whether it clarifies concepts of Aesthetic Realism or obscures them with superfluous detail. That would be another. You might strive for clarity and factuality rather than advocacy. You might strive to differentiate between the good, the mediocre, and the bad. You might attempt to see Eli Siegel's poetry as it is. All these would be good things. - Outerlimits 20:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
For those who want to see the history of discussion, click on the history tab. This page at 31kb was getting too long. There is enough controversy on it to call for a fresh beginning.
It is hoped that the writers who contribute to this page are true critics. As Constantin von Hoffmeister writes--in the words of Matthew Arnold a true critic's job as "to see the object as in itself it really is."
-- Aperey 20:16, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Streamlining what had become an onerous article much appreciated--I removed a subjective passage that did not add to the understanding of Aesthetic Realism.
I removed the comment on Michael Bluejay's motives--the discussion should focus on the veracity of the issues raised, not on the person. Readers can draw their own conclusions about the state of mind of the various participants.
I don't mind the attack on my motives in the article. I have no problem letting the other side air their complaints about their primary critic. Since the section in question covers how AR deals with its critics, this is a primary source of how they do so, and thus I believe adds much value to the article. So I'll add the attack on me back to the article.
If you really feel it's inappropriate for the article, let's talk about it. I doubt you'd change my mind, but I'm willing to listen. Michaelbluejay 03:15, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Using the ad hominem attack from an AR supporter to demonstrate a modus operandi of the group is an interesting angle. I will leave it alone, then.
Since each AR supporter has his own view, and the particular supporter you quote says things that most others don't, I will remove it.
Hello,
I have received a mail from Arnold Perey concerning this article. May I recommand that you seek help from the Wikipedia:Mediation Committee ? thanks Anthere
In looking at the procedures to initiate mediation, I see that it is necessary that both editing parties wish it. I do wish mediation. I hope that Michael Bluejay also does. I am hereby submitting my request and will message mediators about it. -- 66.114.86.135 21:42, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
This is editorializing and is not supported by any AR text I've seen. Can the writer show a text? If not, it should be edited out, no?
First of all, I welcome outside help with this article, so it's not just a war between AR supporters and their most vocal critic (me). I spent a lot of time reading the various methods of resolution on Wikipedia and I'm not sure which one(s) I should pursue. I would welcome mediation but I'm not certain whether we're allowed to go to that point before trying other methods. The documentation about resolution methods is verbose and I just spent a lot of time reading it and I'm having a hard time keeping it all in my head.
Oh, I see that another party has agreed to mediation. Great, let's go for it. I'm confident that third party help will result in a fair article.
Whoa, wait a minute, here's why it's representative: It's on the Aesthetic Realists' _Countering the Lies_ website! They obviously feel it represents them well or they wouldn't have put it there. If they don't feel it's representative they're free to take it down, but so long as they hold this up as a good example of countering their critics, then I think it should be treated as such.
Also, obviously not everybody has the same exact opinion. That's not the point. This is simply an _example_ of such an opinion (and I think it's a pretty good example).
Um, how about in the article itself? :) The quote therein says:
If that's not nearly immortal I don't know what is.
I think there was also another quote in the article about how _Self and World_ was supposedly greater than Shakespeare and the Bible, but if so then it's been edited out. It's from one of their books, and it's on my website. Finally, I published on my site the testimony of a former student who said, "While I was in AR, I did believe that Eli Siegel was greater than Christ...It would have been accurate to say I 'worshipped' him."
So I don't think this is 'editorializing', I think it's backed up by the facts.
Can't wait for the mediation. --Michael Bluejay
Anthere asked me to come by and see if everybody would agree to having me serve as a neutral mediator to help you come to a mutually-agreeable solution to your disagreement? I haven't thoroughly read over the talk pages or archives yet, so I'm not very familiar with the disagreement, but please feel free to contact me on my talk page or by email at clockworksoul AT optonline DOT net. – Clockwork Soul 05:45, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes, yes, please help us mediate! I left a note on your Talk page. Michaelbluejay 07:34, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
The current article has gotten a bit verbose, and, at times, off track. I deleted some redundant passages, and made other minor changes to tighten up the language.
The first paragraph needs a major reworking--the opening line does not tell us what AR is.
In keeping with the way the controvery over John Kerry's military service was moved to a separate category--while there is a straightforward account of Kerry's life under his name--I have moved the whole "Criticisms / Objections" section to a new category, " Criticisms / Objections As to Aesthetic Realism." There, it can be dealt with a more length.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy
AR supporters have one opinion of AR and I, as a critic, have another. Fine. The difference is that I'd still like this article to be a legitimate encyclopaedia entry while AR prefers to excise criticism and insert ridiculous POV cheerleading. Here's an example of how Aperey described a link to the site which tries to rebut critics like me:
This is SO RIDICULOUSLY POV it's not even funny. I call on the Wikipedia community to help me combat this nonsense. I can't do it alone. I've requested mediation but I don't know when that process will start. Thanks, Michaelbluejay 05:28, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
It is not right for Mr. Bluejay to use Wikipedia as a platform to attack a legitimate philosophy and the professional people who study and teach it--doctors, artists, persons in the social sciences, teachers, homemakers, and more. I hope that anyone who wants to deal with this situation reads carefully and is not in a hurry.
Mr. Bluejay's attacks (take a look at the history of this page) are far too numerous for me create a legitimate article and hope it stays put. I have written and rewritten, only to find the saboteur at work again.
That is why mediation is necessary--at least to begin getting a just article.
I can rewrite till the end of time if need be to have the truth win out over obvious "bad-mouthing."
Apparently Mr. Bluejay wants to use Wikipedia's terms in his attack, such as the above "This is SO RIDICULOUSLY POV;" and in doing this he is ever so transparent. In fact, he is promoting his own, obviously NOT NEUTRAL, point of view.
Yes, as one Wikipedian wrote to me, everyone has the right to his opinion even if it is delusional. But no one has the right to suppress what another believes to be true, as Mr. Bluejay has tried to do to my writing.
He has censored me--unfortunately--and cried out that he was censored because I, hastily, deleted links that led to his libelous website. And later have tried to add paragraphs describing what I know to be true, often using legitimate and authoritiative sources. Further, I have tried to put what is unimportant in its proper place, and what is important and central in its place. But this is not allowed?
There has been no dialogue--just Mr. Bluejay's and a few others' peremptory comments, deletions, and substitutions. Democratic? No. Authoritarian? Yes.
This should change.
The "Big Lie" technique, in which you tell a lie so big that it intimidates people, and you tell it again and again, has been used in history. This is his technique and those who are sustaining lies about Aesthetic Realism.
Apparently Mr. Bluejay is afraid of mediation--writing "I've requested mediation but I don't know when that process will start"--and wants to do something else to preempt it.
There should be a real dialogue. Mr. Bluejay wants a fait accompli with his own version in place--badly misrepresenting a real history, an important philosophy, and honest people who teach it.
So I have set some facts before you.
-- Aperey 15:32, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
The first thing I want both of you Michaelbluejay and Aperey to do is thoroughly read our NPOV policy. Then I want you to both make sure, every time you write something on a discussion page, to sign and also use : at the begining to indent. The more :'s you put, the greater the indentation. The best way to resolve disputes over article content is to back up your edits with sources. You copy and paste the URL from the site and put [ ] around it, as opposed to [[ ]] for internal wiki links. You need to discuss all this on the talk page before editing/reverting the article and reach a consensus. Making attacks on each other solves nothing. You need to carefully explain your edits, using sources, and maintain NPOV in the article. It is good to put the opinions from all sides in an article, as long as you point out that it is "their opinion", or "so and so has claimed." I don't personally know anything about this topic, so I can't help edit it, but hopefully my advice has helped. Do not break the 3 revert rule. If someone is a troll or a vandal then you can request to have them blocked, but it must be shown that they are. Write to me on my talk page if you want more help. -- Silversmith 17:14, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I deleted the part that argued that people angry with the philosophy itself have attacked Aesthetic Realism--the argument sets up a straw man, and does not add to the understanding of Aesthetic Realism.
In Wikipedia "Words to Avoid" we have this instruction from the administration: don't say "X is a cult" See Words to Avoid. This phrase ought to be deleted from the article. It is a hideous lie.
The last section of the article states: "Meanwhile, the furtherance of these scientific and humanistic goals, which Aesthetic Realism stands for preeminently, has angered some individuals. These have worked to disparage this new education with pejoratives."
The anger described (if referring to Michael Bluejay's site) is erringly ascribed to the furtherance of the goals of AR. It's the method of furthering these goals that has angered some folks. Bluejay's site is clear on the distinction.
Meanwhile, the persons who now study and teach Aesthetic Realism have responded to Michael Bluejay by saying that the "methods" he attributes to Aesthetic Realism are, in fact, not true but exactly what the paragraph describes: "dispargement" and "pejoratives." Former students of Aesthetic Realism, who have had no connection with it for many years, have also written descriptions of their past study of Aesthetic Realism which take exception with Michael Bluejay and call into question his accuracy and impartiality.
If somebody titled a website "The Polio Vaccine is a Fake" I think it is only fair to let people know it's an opinion, not a fact. They shouldn't have to find out the hard way.
P.S. removing the NPOV sign. Who is this James M. Lane to dictate what is and what isn't neutral voice? His own writing is remarkably non-neutral in tone as a rule.
One of them, Elijah Cummings, is a politician from Baltimore, Siegel's birthplace. I'd guess he issued some sort of proclamation or official letter without giving it much thought, like the pols described in this link that keeps disappearing from the ext links even though it's a highly informative article about Aesthetic Realism that quotes people on both sides. Not that I'm suggesting we should link to it that way, but we should link to it. Meanwhile, what was the context of the Cummings quotation? Did a reporter ask him about his intellectual influences, and he volunteered Siegel's name? Or did constituents ask him to send a feel-good type letter about the subject, and he adopted language they suggested without doing much investigation? JamesMLane 04:41, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
If I removed it, it was my clumsiness. I have no intention of doing so. It is a low point in tabloid journalism--constructed to give a false impression while having the appearance of "objectivity" to the unwary reader. Some of its techniques are pointed out in "Friends of Aesthetic Realism--Countering the Lies." I have written a paragraph by paragraph analysis but haven't posted it yet. It is, however, transparent enough in its bias to be unpersuasive.
I do not expect to engage much in these discussions, but I will be watching. -- Aperey 15:01, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
Interesting dispute. I read the Jewish Times article. It seemed to me it was written by a zealous reporter who had a point of view. She seemed to want to discredit Eli Siegel in order to embarrass city officials and burnish her credentials as a hotshot "investigative" reporter. While she quotes a very flippant remark made about Eli Siegel by Max Gordon, she doesn't balance that quote with any made by people like William Carlos Williams and other third-parties quoted in the Wikipedia entry about Aesthetic Realism that show a rather high regard for Siegel or at least some intellectual acknowledgement of him as a serious thinker. I find it hard to believe the thesis of this article that city officials just automatically issue proclamations without some basis in fact for it. The article also contains many quotes from ex-students of the group slamming Aesthetic Realism but almost none from ex-students with more positive points of view--though they clearly exist and have, in fact, written statements on Aesthetic Realism's "countering the lies" site. The members of Aesthetic Realism quoted in the article do sound quite gushing. But I wonder if they are being fairly quoted or only quoted selectively to make them sound that way. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody that the bias of a reporter can cause him or her to "tailor" a story in a way that might not be completely accurate. I'll look forward to the analysis from Aperey. I don't know too much about Aesthetic Realism but this dispute makes me curious and I think I'll try to find out more about it for myself without relying on filtered information from either its enthralled supporters or its axe-grinding detractors.
This quote has no cited source:
Can we please get one before adding it back? Also, I removed some unsourced assertions surrounding it. Thanks, - Willmcw 21:15, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
While I don't intend to fiddle around with the entry on Aesthetic Realism, not knowing all that much about it, I do object to the use of the word "killed" in describing how Eli Siegel died. My father choose to end his life with dignity at an advanced age when his health had badly eroded and he was in fierce pain. I would be very angry if people went around describing that rational (and I believe wise) decision as him "killing" himself. It seems the persons involved in Aesthetic Realism feel likewise--and understandly so. The anti-Aesthetic Realism folk are the ones insisting on this language and that should tell you everything you need to know about how accurate or appropriate the use of this word is. "Ended his life" seems far more descriptive of what actually happened and is hardly a euphemism. That's how I would describe how my Dad passed away. We don't go around saying Jackie Kennedy "killed" herself, do we? I'd be pleased if somebody would fix this. (- not signed)
"Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy founded by poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941. Among the public it is best known for statements that some of its adherents had "changed from homosexuality" as a result of their study. In 1990, the Aesthetic Realism Foundation discontinued this aspect of the philosophy's study because of what it described as the "atmosphere of anger" surrounding the subject which made impartial, philosophic discussion of Aesthetic Realism itself difficult. [1] ( http://www.counteringthelies.com/m_carpenter.html)
"Its adherents find the Aesthetic Realism point of view of art more significant: the Terrain Gallery was founded in 1955 with the publication of Eli Siegel's "Is Beauty the Making One of Opposites?" then reprinted in The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism and elsewhere. Among still others, including the critics Kenneth Rexroth and William Packard, Eli Siegel was best known for his poetry and his literary criticism."
Take for example a person who doesn't like Chaucer but never read more than a few lines. Then that person comes to love Chaucer because a good teacher explained the poetry cogently, factually, and made its beauty felt. For "Chaucer" read "the world" and you have a sense of how Aesthetic Realism enables a person to care for the world more. It isn't "adherence" but study. -- Aperey 17:35, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I added some documentation. There is more.
The fact is the Aesthetic Realism Foundation is not a philosophy but a school--this makes things a little different from the common way of thinking about a philosophy. Knowledge is transmitted, including about anthropology (which I teach), poetry, acting, and other subjects which are part of the curriculum. The education process is not really included in the term "adherent." It sounds more like geting glued to something than assimilating knowledge from it. (I say this with adequate awareness of the common usage of the term "adherent," I hope.) --
Cheers, -- Aperey 22:47, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
In a 1944 article in the Baltimore Sun, Donald Kirkley referred to the immense national popularity of "Hot Afternoons Have Been in Montana" in 1925 as "a flood of publicity." In fact, the title "Hot Afternoons Have Been in Montana" was so well known that it is quoted in Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (edition to follow if needed).
Donald Kirkley wrote this about Mr. Siegel--
That principle was, "The world, art, and self explain each other: each is the aesthetic oneness of opposites." It is the basis of Aesthetic Realism. And writing about Siegel in 1925, after the Nation Poetry Prize:
Cheers, Aperey (Arnold Perey)
"Sweeping the nation" implies a popularity on the order of hula hoops, the macarena, or pet rocks. A "flood of publicity" (as demonstrated by an article in the Baltimore Sun) and a quotation in Bartlett's do not add up to "sweeping the nation". - Outerlimits 20:26, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
After posting the merge tags some days ago I have now proceeded to merge back the "Criticism" section. We need to edit it all together or there will be too much duplication. We want to get one good comprehensive article. Cheers, - Willmcw 20:57, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
I still think that the development of Aesthetic Realism as a philosophy ought to be taken chronologically. There are the 20s, then of course 1941, then 1955, and then the later events.
It is not correct to call Eli Siegel a "minor" poet. Fame does not make a poet major or minor. Southey was very famous in his day but seen as minor today. Van Gogh was major--but as an artist he did not sell any of his paintings. It is the power of Siegel's poetry that makes him major. And people who really know poetry saw this: a great poet himself, W.C. Williams; William Packard, the critic of poetry who founded The New York Review; NY Times reviewer Kenneth Rexroth, and others.
I cut some paragraphs I wrote much earlier because they no longer seemed relevant. I also trimmed some others' writing where it seemed to me either too awkward or really too "editorialized" to pass inspection.
As to the two sections on homosexuality, I tried to keep the first exactly as it was, and in the "Objections" section to interleave the Bluejay contribution with Margot Carpenter's response. Because of the Aesthetic Realism Foundation's desire not to be involved in an "atmosphere of anger" I changed nothing that seemed important to the writer. If something needs to be restored to its previous state, which I might have changed, go ahead.
The Marvin Mondlin statement seemed unnecessary in terms of sticking to the topic.
I think it is fairer to have a title "Objections to Aesthetic Realism and Some Responses to the Objections" -- because we need to have symmetry in these controversial matters. -- Aperey 20:20, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I am not for "peans" to "ineffability"--Bluejay made it necessary to show that the opinion stated by Ellen Reiss is one that has been felt for decades by the people who knew Siegel best. Because Bluejay quotes Ellen Reiss (out of context I might add) for the purpose of making her opinion seem isolated, so he can make the reader think he is right to say Aesthetic Realism is a cult (which it isn't). Bluejay wrote this:
It is necessary to quote others to show that, just possibly, Reiss is talking factually about a real person whom others saw the same qualities in. (There are more than those whom I quoted). If these two paragraphs by Bluejay are no longer in the article, it wouldn't be necessary to show Reiss is not in isolation. Maybe we could get on with the business of really saying what the Aesthetic Realism philosophy is.
Bluejay also wants to focus on the obvious fact that the press has largely ignored Aesthetic Realism, and use it to say I and others are "cultists" and are paranoid to say the press has been unfair. That's why it's necessary to give the reader a chance to understand why the press has put aside this philosophy (except for one or two tabloid-quality stories Bluejay's reprinting). It's a fact that there has been a fear of the size of Siegel's philosophy--including its uncompromising belief in human equality--and the respect that this philosophy engenders. The reader has a right to know why a philosophy thought great by a significant number of people is not well known.
The "belittlers" as Bready calls them want to say it's the fault of the philosophy and/or the people who care about it, that they aren't so good: they're deluded. Either the "belittlers" are right, or there is something wrong with how the majority of the press, the academic world, and even the critics see Aesthetic Realism. I think it's the latter. And all the facts--when they are presented, and not censored--will show that.
Ponder this -- (as to "major" and "minor" in art and poetry) -- If you told an Elizabethan that William Shakespeare was the greatest poet the English language had ever seen, you'd be pooh-poohed--the average academic didn't think that way during his lifetime. It took a couple of hundred years for his greatness to be recognized. If you were talking to a Bluejay you might be called a "cultist." I think it wasn't till Coleridge wrote about Shakespeare that the literary world began to get an inkling that he was really important. And Coleridge was a "nonconformist"(This can be verified).
Think of this too -- Vermeer was not recognized as a great artist--one of the greatest of all time, we think today--until several hundred years AFTER he died. The critics missed his value. He was seen as one of the minor Dutch masters by the best critics until, I think the time of Proust--who loved Vermeer. I can get exact references for this--it's real history.
To be a true critic of one's contemporaries is one of the hardest things going. Academic critics aren't so good at this. Williams was. We have to see Siegel as he will be seen historically. The tendency to make the value of an artist or scientist depend on contemporary "influence" is wrong. How many footnotes refer to him, etc. Mendel's discovery of the gene almost went into oblivion when he died. (Even though his paper on this discovery was published in his lifetime its importance wasn't recognized until much later -- I can get references for this too). Siegel is major -- very, very major. I've studied enough poetry, compared the musical power of his lines to enough poetry (major, minor, and bad) to be quite sure of this. Others have, too, and they represent the opinion that will be seen as true. Williams questioned the perception of the critics in his time....We should try to have as large a perspective as he had.
This matter of mayor and minor is not a "quickie" to be solved by the snap of a finger. Study is necessary. And if that's what it takes to make Wikipedia a really good encyclopedia--including fairness to Aesthetic Realism and its founder--isn't that what we should do? -- Aperey 18:52, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Eli Siegel is certainly a minor poet. [N.B.: Although I don't like to engage in a debate like this, you are quite wrong. -- AP]If future ages come to esteem him as highly as we do Shakespeare, they can edit the article accordingly. Until that halcyon day, Siegel will have to be content to be what he is, rather than what he could be, if for some reason his importance is reevaluated. Your comparisons are symptomatic of the problem you have in coming to a realistic assessment of Siegel's literary importance - which is more-or-less none. He's not Shakespeare, he's not Coleridge, he's not Vermeer. He hasn't left behind him a corpus of literary works remotely comparable to the works of any of these. Our "fairness" here ought to be to the truth (and to those who wish to be informed), not to what Aesthetic Realism and its founder would wish to be the truth, and you should not distort the truth to your ends. The "issue" of whether Eli Siegel is a "major" poet doesn't require much study at all: he appears in no anthologies of major poets. [Again, quite wrong. -- AP][Quite right, actually] We need to report that. Meanwhile, if you want to continue to heap largely undeserved praise on your hero, claiming it is a response to Michael Bluejay, then that response belongs down in the article where it would actually be a response, rather than at the beginning, where it distorts Siegel's actual importance. - Outerlimits 21:00, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
HERE ARE MY NOTES IN REPLY AND OUTERLIMITS' REPLIES TO THEM:
OUTERLIMITS REPLIES TO AP NOTES
(AP says: Again, although I do not want to engage in debete, Outerlimits, I don't want a reader to think you might be correct. Try Selden Rodman's 100 American poems; masterpieces of lyric, epic and ballad from pre-colonial times to the present. ISBN: B00005V9XN (1948 and 1972).
And there are more anthologies of major poets in which Siegel appears.
However, as I said earlier, this is not the criterion for the value of either a critic or a poet. The compilers of anthologies etc. are as subject to human error today as they were in the past. -- Arnold Perey)
Whew, what a discource! I'm still not sure why the prominence of Siegel as a poet matters to our article on Aesthetic Realism. However, setting that question aside, I have recently done a comprehensive search of all 350+ Internet references to Eli Siegel that Google reports (a few dozen to other people). Only two (yes, two) of them were to significant references by non-AR consultants. (Also two hits to archives of magazines in the early 1970s, one which printed a couple of his poems and one which had some kind of review.) While I don't know what the definition of "minor poet" is, my (original) is strong evidence that Siegel is a forgotten poet outside of the AR world. Obviously we can't cite this in the article but anyone arguing that Siegel is non-minor poet has a heavy burden of proof. (And again, for the purposes of this article I can't see why Siegel's prominence as a poet matters - this is a philosophy article, not a poet's biography). Cheers, - Willmcw 07:59, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
I am writing quickly now as I just saw your post, so I can't give you references and so on. But "Hot Afternoons" was one of the first forms of Aesthetic Realism--it's a philosophic poem that says that things in the world are more related than you know. A hot afternoon in Montana is related to the whole world--to monks in Europe, to Aristotle by the Aegean, to Native Americans "thinking, feeling, trying pleasurably to live...." to a bird flying.... and much more. Mr. Siegel called this poem "The Scientific Criticism" given light and heat. It shows people are all related to one another and is a hymn to equality and mutual understanding. So these three are crucial in the development of Aesthetic Realism: "The Equality of Man," "The Scientific Criticism," and "Hot Afternoons Have Been in Montana." They are, respectively, a way of seeing people as equals, a way of seeing and criticising art--and the world as a whole: economics, history, and more; and a poetic (or artistic) way of seeing people and the world: a way that is both logical and passionate as all art needs to be. Everything in Aesthetic Realism as a mature philosophy developed from the core ideas in these three early works--and each is great in its own way--and continued in Mr. Siegel's ongoing critical, poetic, and humanistic endeavors for the next 50 years.
Yes, I think there can be a paragraph or two making this clear. Is this what you had in mind? -- Aperey 20:32, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Mr. Siegel did describe it. And Ellen Reiss, who is a critic, has written about the meaning of the poem. There are very good sources. -AP
The above is what I wrote. -- Aperey 19:52, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I can't find the reference where Conrad Arensberg compares AR to structuralism. This section seems rather long. Where is the Arensberg comparison, and why is it so important? Thanks - Willmcw 00:12, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
The Arensberg reference is not imporant. I took it out.
Please note, Willmcw, the ugly way Outerlimits took the article and inserted editorializing POV arising from malice. I reverted the article back to a cleaner previous version.
What can be done?
You might stop imputing ugly motives. That would be one thing that could be done. You might reread what you're adding and consider whether it clarifies concepts of Aesthetic Realism or obscures them with superfluous detail. That would be another. You might strive for clarity and factuality rather than advocacy. You might strive to differentiate between the good, the mediocre, and the bad. You might attempt to see Eli Siegel's poetry as it is. All these would be good things. - Outerlimits 20:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)