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Due to the recurring disputes concerning this article I strongly recommend the active editors engage in mediation. Please see WP:MEDCAB. Will Beback talk 21:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
An uninvolved editor has posted this text in the lead:
Is there any objection to this text? How can it be improved without making it much longer? Will Beback talk 23:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I've been looking at Wikipedia's guidelines for the lead paragraph of an article; maybe I don't understand the rules... Nathan43 ( talk) 21:00, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation. That link goes to the section of rules I'd been looking at. I understand what you are saying about Christ and Stalin, (and I'm not asking you to respond to this comment) but I wonder if that also applies to scientists such as Newton and Robert Boyle? After all, we're talking about a system of principles that can be tested, not a religion or a political theory. In any case, I appreciate the feedback AND thanks for shortening this page! Nathan43 ( talk) 02:30, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
That is not entirely true. The AR people *have* cut the intro, several times, as the History clearly shows. And prior to WillBeback's own recent removal, the AR folks censored the intro repeatedly in the past. They've done it before, they're doing it now. WillBeback simply provided some cover for them to do so recently, which they've eagerly employed. The reason for cutting the intro was ostensibly so a consensus could be worked out, but are they working on that? No. Not for a good week. During this time they've made certain to repeatedly censor the article "until consensus is reached", while making no effort to actually reach consensus. If they do return to the discussion they will drag it out as long as possible so that the censored intro remains as long as possible. They fought long and hard to keep allegations of cult behavior and the gay cure out of the article, and especially out of the intro, so this is a huge win for them -- and a loss for WP and readers who come to the article expecting a good summary of the subject. As for coming to a consensus, even if the AR people would discuss it now, they've made it clear that they won't be reasonable. e.g., They strenuously object to highlighting the things that AR is best known for. Since they won't dialogue reasonably (or even at all), I'm putting in a more proper intro. And since the AR people have cut even the old consensus intro I tried to restore, I'll now put in a better-written intro, based on the intro for the Scientology article, below. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 19:05, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Mr. Bluejay. I think your draft was getting closer to being inclusive and NPOV. Please just post it on the talk page first. Though wiki policy certainly suggests you should be bold, it can be counterproductive for controversial articles; literally, it can make the situation worse. If you put a draft like that here, then we can tweak imprecise language, add and source appropriate criticisms, and deal with policy questions. I've re-posted your edit below with my own changes:
Aesthetic Realism is a philosophy created by Eli Siegel (1902–1978) in 1941. Aesthetic Realists believe that root of humankind's problems--personal unhappiness, family conflicts, social strife, poverty, racism, and war--can be understood and resolved by the study of Aesthetic Realism, which is based on three core principles. First, according to Siegel, the deepest desire of every person is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis. Second, the greatest danger for a person is to have contempt for the world and what is in it--contempt defined as lessening what is different from oneself as a means to make the self seem more important. And third, all beauty is a making one of opposites, and the making one of opposites is what people are truly seeking. [8]
These teachings are promoted by the Aesthetic Realism Foundation, a non-profit organization based in SoHo, New York City through a variety of lectures, classes, art events, and "consultations", in which individual students meet with three teachers called "consultants".
Throughout the history of the organization, Aesthetic Realists have criticized the lack of recognition of their philosophy in mainstream press. [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] Although Aesthetic Realism was well received within artistic, aesthetic, anthropological, and pedagogical circles, it never received widespread attention or endorsement by the media, psychologists, or academic philosophers.
Aesthetic Realism has been controversial for the claim that it could change gay people's sexual orientation by teaching them to perceive and like the world "as it is". [15] The organization has also been accused by some ex-students and researchers for operating as a cult. [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] Aesthetic Realists have responded that the homosexuality issue is a part of their past not central to the philosophy, and that the accusations of being a cult are based on lies. [23]
Thoughts? 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 10:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I *did* post my intro suggestion on this page. The AR people are still reverting without discussing. It's simply not acceptable for the intro to not mention what AR is notable for in the meantime. Your version of the intro is acceptable to me and I'm posting it. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 16:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
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Assuming the merge doesn't happen (and I don't think it should), I think we need a disambiguation header to redirect and inform readers who are looking for articles about realism in the academic disciplines of philosophy and aesthetics that this page is about something different. Even though "aesthetic realism" is eli siegel's meta-philosophy, the subjects of both aesthetics and realism and even realism applied to aesthetics is common within philosophical and artistic writings. (See this link: [1] 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 11:01, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Trouver, please don't intersperse your comments in the middle of other comments. For talk page etiquette, see WP:TPG. Will Beback talk 06:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
(I've extracted Trouver's annoying interspersed replies from others' comments above and listed them separately below.) MichaelBluejay ( talk) 10:07, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
71, thank you for the academic perspective you bring. I agree that a disambiguation header is called for, exactly for the reasons you suggest. If the AR devotees didn't have such knee-jerk reactions to non-AR people's ideas, they'd see that disambiguation is *good* for them, because it identifies Eli Siegel's Aesthetic Realism as something special and different from the aesthetic realism that's discussed elsewhere. But whatever. It's diplomatic that you don't mind interspersed comments, but I do, and more importantly, interspersing just isn't acceptable on WP. And finally, LoreMariano thinks she has found a trick to censor mention of AR's cult characteristics from the intro: Remove them until "consensus" can be found. I rather think it works the other way: The old version which was here for years is the default version, until consensus overrules that precedent. As such, I'm adding back the old intro, until consensus is reached otherwise. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 10:31, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I dug up the old intro, but it's terrible, so I created a new one. The Aesthetic Realists will object because it mentions the things that AR is controversial for, but that's to be expected. They're never reasonable. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 10:54, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I've undone MichaeBluejay's one sided introduction. Please do not edit without consensus. Keravnos ( talk) 13:20, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Here's just one example of academic use of the term "aesthetic realism", which I presume is unrelated to Siegel's use: "Twentieth Century American Literature: ... We will begin our inquiry at the turn of the last century in an attempt to understand the relationship between the end of the civil war, patterns of immigration/migration and the emergence of aesthetic realism." ( University of Washington) MichaelBluejay ( talk) 13:45, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
DRAFT
Aesthetic Realism is a philosophy created by
Eli Siegel (1902–1978) in 1941. Aesthetic Realists believe that the root of humankind's problems--personal unhappiness, family conflicts, social strife, poverty, racism, and war--can all be understood and resolved by the study of Aesthetic Realism, which is based on three core principles. First, according to Siegel, the deepest desire of every person is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis. Second, the greatest danger for a person is to have contempt for the world and what is in it--contempt defined as lessening what is different from oneself as a means to make the self seem more important. And third, all beauty is a making one of opposites, and the making one of opposites is what people are truly seeking.
[24]
These teachings are promoted by the Aesthetic Realism Foundation, a non-profit organization based in SoHo, New York City through a variety of lectures, classes, art events, and "consultations", in which individual students meet with three teachers called "consultants".
Throughout the history of the organization, Aesthetic Realists have criticized the lack of recognition of their philosophy in mainstream press. [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] Although Aesthetic Realism was well received within artistic, aesthetic, anthropological, and pedagogical circles, it never received widespread attention or endorsement by the media, psychologists, or academic philosophers.
Aesthetic Realism has been controversial for the claim that it could change gay people's sexual orientation by teaching them to perceive and like the world "as it is". [31] The organization has also been accused by some ex-students and researchers for operating as a cult. [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] Aesthetic Realists have responded that the homosexuality issue is a part of their past not central to the philosophy, and that the accusations of being a cult are based on lies. [41]
Are there specific criticisms...
Please discuss them here. I will also revert adding this to the main page without letting it improve on the talk page for at least a few days. 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 21:55, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
71, you're not listening to me. Your saying, "Again, the ARists DID NOT stub the intro. Will Beback did...." misses the point that the AR people have reverted to the stubbed version, repeatedly, every single time I try to post a legitimate intro. Yes WillBeback stubbed it, too, providing them the kind of cover for their censorship they could previously only dream of. Before Will handed them the golden ticket, they engaged in the same sort of censorship for years. And now the article has been locked down to the censored version. This is a *huge* victory for them, as a censored version that doesn't mention the controversial things that AR is known for, is precisely what they wanted all along. Don't think there's not celebrating going on about this at 141 Greene Street. And it's no coincidence that they don't want the intro addressed until everything else is addressed, because the longer they can drag out the process, the longer the censored version will remain. Working on a rewrite is a smokescreen in any event, because they've made it clear repeatedly over the years that they don't think the cult allegations or the gay cure should be part of the article, or if so then those bits should be buried and neutered beyond all reason. The admins around here are playing right into their hands. We used to be able to count on them to help us ensure that articles were fair and encyclopaedic. Now they're joining in with the censorship and even locking the censored version into place -- both over the objection of at least two other long-time editors. It's pretty sad. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 12:12, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
P.S. "If you want to make an edit, at least propose it on talk and let it sit for a day so people can respond." Are you *** kidding me?! I have been posting my drafts and the AR people are reverting without discussing. They don't want to discuss, they want to censor. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 12:14, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
So, before the editing block goes up on the 14th, I thought we could try to figure out an editing plan so we don't all just go edit-warring. I added a to-do list to the talk-header, which you can edit just like a normal article. It might sound a little preachy as I added some basic editing policy links, but the real purpose is to give us a place for a nuts-and-bolts stuff we can actually do, cross off, and get posted to the main page.
Meanwhile, a question? Do we want the block removed yet? Or would it be better to work on the drafts and have an admin transfer individual pieces as we find consensus? 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 14:21, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Aesthetic Realism: The Philosophy
Aesthetic Realism is based on the idea that reality, or the world, has a structure that is beautiful. Eli Siegel defined beauty as the making one, or unity, of opposites.[44][45]
In Siegel's critical theory of art, a good poem is both logical and passionate at once.[46] Logic embodies order while passion accentuates freedom. His studies led him to conclude that any successful work of art or music combines essential dualities. In the philosophy of Aesthetic Realism, Siegel developed this concept, writing that the arts and sciences all give evidence that reality has an aesthetic nature[41][42][43][44][45] He envisioned the world sharing the quality of construction characteristic to good poems; it too, is composed of opposites. In Siegel's eyes, freedom at one with order could be seen in an electron, a tree, or the solar system.[47] Siegel also asked, "since a beautiful poem is one and many, and reality is one and many, isn't this evidence too that reality is beautiful and can be liked the way we like a good poem?"[48]
This idea led to Siegel's primary belief, that the world "can be liked honestly". Further, a core teaching of Aesthetic Realism is that it is "every person's deepest desire to like the world on an honest or accurate basis." [5]
But Siegel recognized another competing desire which drives humans away from such an appreciation—the desire to have contempt for the world and what is in it, in order to make oneself feel more important.[49][50][51] Siegel argued that when a person seeks self-esteem through contempt--"the addition to self through lessening something else"--he or she is unjust to people and things.[49] Contempt, the philosophy maintains, may seem like a triumph, but ultimately results in self-dislike[1] and mental distress,[56] and in doing so, lessens the capacity of one's mind to perceive and feel in the fullest manner. Siegel held that, in the extreme, contempt causes insanity.[57][58]
Aesthetic Realism attests that one’s attitude to the world governs how all of life's components are seen: a friend, a spouse, a lover, a book, food, people of another skin tone.[53][54] Accordingly, Aesthetic Realism argues, individuals have an ethical obligation to give full value to things and people, not devalue them in order to make oneself seem more important. Aesthetic Realism states that conscious intention to be fair to the world and people is not only an ethical obligation, but the means of liking oneself.[59][60][61]
The philosophy identifies contempt as the underlying cause of broader social problems as well: societal evils like racism and war arise from contempt for “human beings placed differently from ourselves" in terms of race, economic status, or nationality. Siegel stated that for centuries ill will has been the predominant purpose in humanity's economic activities. The philosophy asserts that humanity cannot overcome its biggest problems until people cease to feel that “the world’s failure or the failure of a[nother] person enhances one’s own life.” Siegel stated that until good will rather than contempt is at the center of economics and in the thoughts of people, “civilization has yet to begin.”[52]
71.224.206.164 ( talk) 02:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Lore and I (71) worked over the last week and a half to put this together and really tighten up the language. I hope (we both do) that it comes across as faithful to the letter and spirit of the philosophy as well as completely objective and appropriately dispassionate. This should be one of the easier sections to edit, but if you have any issues, please list them here (or edit the draft directly, preferably after discussion). The numbers in the title are just dates (draft started, posted to talk, posted to mainpage).
Well, not too surprisingly, no one cares about starting a big edit war until we get to the exciting parts. So, I'm going to post this to the mainpage, and if there are minor issues we can work them out later.
The next section Lore and I are working on is the Poetry section. Still pretty uncontroversial, but to the extent that we include praise about the poetry, I'd like to reference alternate, critical views. So if you know of any sources that reference Siegel's poetry, or it's relationship to Aesthetic Realism in a critical way, this might be the section in which to incorporate it (I'd ask for positive commentary as well, but Keravnos and others already collected a lot of it). 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 22:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
71 appears to be MIA. (S)he was the only independent editor working on the section-by-section rewrite, so without him/her, I intend to put a proper encyclopedic intro into this article. Yes, I know the AR people will object that there's not "consensus" to do so (since the AR people will obviously never consent to the more unflattering aspects of AR being presented), but they should remember that there is certainly no consensus to keep a proper intro *out* of the article. At least Outerlimits and I agree that the article should have a proper intro now. If 71 returns, I'll agree to go back to his tedious method of rewriting the whole article from scratch before we tackle the intro. But so long as s/he's absent, the article should have a proper intro. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 22:50, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Keravnos, whoever you are, the term " vandalism" has a very specific meaning here on Wikipedia, and my putting a proper intro into the article is certainly not it. Please familiarize yourself with this term as it's used on WP. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 21:32, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Just so I don't get accused by editing without discussing for those unfamiliar with the history of this article, here is my attempt to discuss adding the intro back to the article. The Aesthetic Realists don't want the Intro section to point out the more unflattering things about AR (such as their "gay cure", the allegations by former members and the press that they're a mind-control cult, and that the founder killed himself). Indeed, they've been trying to censor any mention of those things for years. Recently they've taken a new tactic, claiming that they're just innocently waiting for the article to be rewritten before tackling a new lead section, and stubbing the lead down to almost nothing any time anyone tries to insert a proper intro. They will drag that process out as long as possible, and even when it's done, possibly years from now, they're still gonna object to a complete and neutral intro, just as they've objected for years. There is no compelling justification for this article to not have a good lead, right now. I'm certainly willing to discuss the wording of the intro, as always, as long as that discussion happens in good faith. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 18:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
P.S. I'm going to be unavailable until early April, at the earliest. At that time if the article doesn't have a proper intro then I'll request mediation. If that fails I'll request arbitration. The article should have a proper intro. It's sad that admins here are giving cover to the Aesthetic Realist's agenda of censorship. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 21:46, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
I opened a formal Mediation Cabal to assist. Hopefully, the delay will end shortly. LoreMariano ( talk) 00:58, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
(Revised draft, 3/19/10)
Eli Siegel stated that ideas central to the philosophy of Aesthetic Realism were implicitly present in “Hot Afternoons Have Been in Montana,”
[42] the poem that brought him widespread fame when it was awarded The Nation's esteemed poetry prize in 1925. The philosophic principle that individuality is relation, “that the very self of a thing is its relations, its having-to-do-with other things” is in this poem.
[43] It begins with a hot, quiet afternoon in Montana and travels through time and space, showing that things usually thought of as separate and unrelated “have a great deal to do with each other.”
[44] These are lines near the end of the poem:
The search for that which connects all branches of knowledge [45] led Siegel to discover a key concept of Aesthetic Realism: “The world, art, and self explain each other: each is the aesthetic oneness of opposites.” [46] In Aesthetic Realism classes, he criticized the “intricate tepidity” of T. S. Eliot, whom he declared was “not a poet” [47] and the widely accepted Freudian view of art as sublimation. [48] Aesthetic Realism classes were scholarly [49] and demonstrated that poetry was related to the problems of everyday life. [50] The viewpoint of Aesthetic Realism is that “what makes a good poem is like what can make a good life.” [51]
Siegel defined poetry as “the oneness of the permanent opposites in reality as seen by an individual.” [52] In Aesthetic Realism classes he explained that the greatest desire of a person is to put together opposites, as, in a good poem, “emotion changes into logic: there is no rift between the two.” [53] He maintained that music distinguishes true poetry, whatever the language, period or style; the music of a poem shows the poet has honestly perceived opposites as one, and sincerely united personal feelings with the impersonal structure of the world. [54] “Poetry,” he wrote, “arises out of a like of the world so intense and wide that of itself, it is musical.” [55] Therefore, Aesthetic Realism teaches, even a poem that in substance seems to condemn the world, in its technique and music is praising the world, seeing it truly.
In thousands of Aesthetic Realism lectures, Siegel demonstrated the centrality of poetry to every aspect of life, including "Poetry and Anger," "Poetry and Love," "Educational Method Is Poetic,” "Poetry and Time," "Poetry, Money, and Good Will," “A Poetic Technique of Parenthood,” “Poetry and History,” and “Hamlet Revisited; or, the Family Should Be Poetry.” [56] His students affirm that an important aspect of the philosophy continues to be the study of how a good poem has within it “the composition, beauty, sanity we want in ourselves." This education, they assert, “makes it possible for poetry to be, as Matthew Arnold said, a criticism of life.” [57]
Trouver ( talk) 18:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
THer is an outstanding medaitaion on this article at Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2010-03-11/Aesthetic_Realism that has been completely ignored. unless anyone has a particular objection, I'm going to mark that case as closed. if there's any interest in the process later, the case can be reopened. -- Ludwigs2 10:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Here is the archived page which contains the history of the rewrite process with IP 71 [6] as mediator. I respectfully request a lockdown of the stubbed article until there is agreement to move forward with a new mediator. LoreMariano ( talk) 02:44, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Please let's maintain civility and not be insulting. The article does need an intro. Does anyone think there should be an article without an intro? I for one do not want two years to pass before we have a finished article. I don't see how anyone gains from that. However, the article should be honest and NPOV. Does anyone disagree with that? The fact is that for several weeks (maybe a month; I don't remember) work was done following IP71's suggestion and with WillBeback's advice (or maybe the other way around) that the article needed better sourcing and should be revised paragraph by paragraph. This takes a lot of time and work, I'm sure. You can see all the sources that have been gathered. It's pretty impressive. That must have taken a great deal of thought and I'm thankful that it was done. Work that was done in good faith should not be discounted. Several sections have already been rewritten, I think. Let's see through the process. We are much closer at this point to coming up with an introduction that is honest. I'd rather have the article be accurate than go too fast and have a personal view that doesn't go along with the sources. Nathan43 ( talk) 00:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
That's more focused on AR. Is there a transcript or recording of the radio interview? How is it verifiable? Will Beback talk 21:21, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Now that I see the "Philosophy" and "Poetry and Aesthetic Realism" sections next to each other, I wonder if they aren't somewhat redundant. The philosophy section discusses poetry a little bit, and the poetry section discusses philosophy. Would it be possible to either merge them or reduce the overlap? Will Beback talk 22:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
It's manifestly not NPOV for this article to report and link to AR's responses to the "cult" allegation, while giving no substantive information about or links to what the critics actually say. (The version I'm looking at, that completely omits one side of this debate, is this one.) JamesMLane t c 22:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
This book calls AR a "secular Evangelical movement" and a "gnostic sect" and describes the philosophy as a "curious mix of psychology and literature". It says that "Its most publicized conversionary experience as the change of certain practicing homosexuals to a heterosexual lifestyle..." So far as I know, there are few books that discuss AR, so this may be a useful source even though it's a short reference. Will Beback talk 03:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Given the snail's pace at which "editing" is proceeding here, I've restored the purged sections of the lede. At Wikipedia, an article's lede is expected to be an adequate summary of the article's content, and this article's lede hasn't been that for several months. If any rewrites are eventually approved by achieving consensus, and the article content changes, the lede can be adjusted, but there is no justifiable reason to remove entire sections of the lede. The fact that certain editors don't like the article's current content is not a sufficient reason for removing a summary of that content. - Outerlimits ( talk) 18:33, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Gentlemen, once again you have shown yourselves to be against any honest work on this subject. Months of work has been done on this article with WillBebeck's guidance. You presume a good deal to just come in here and edit as you see fit, and I find it highly objectionable. Rethink what you are doing here. It is no one's interest to take this road. Keravnos ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:45, 11 May 2010 (UTC).
It was agreed previously to rework the article, section by section, and then write the lead from the article--not the other way around. There is no harm in a one sentence lead. Please focus on improving the rest of the article first. Jonathunder ( talk) 16:57, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Will, you said, "Come to think of it, I'm not sure there was ever a formal agreement." Are you *** kidding me that you're NOT SURE there was no formal agreement?! Even after the MULTIPLE, STRONG objections by myself and Outerlimits? Here are some of my earlier objections to this article not having a proper lead, dating back to 5 February:
And Will, when you say, "I think when the plan was adopted to revise the article first it was expected to move along more expeditiously," you can speak for yourself. *I* knew it would be the exact opposite, and I said so repeatedly:
I wish you'd listened to me. 3+ months without a proper lead now. The article still suffers, and the only winners are the AR people who wanted to censor the cult allegations from the lead. Sad state of affairs for WP. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 04:25, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Are you serious? To answer your question, no, absolutely not. That's because the Aesthetic Realists have made it plain as day that they intend to fight a proper intro (i.e., one that identifies the unflattering things that AR is most famous for). We could spend five years and it wouldn't make any difference, they're still gonna object. Just recently one of them called the inclusion of the cult allegations "filthy POV", and another one, lunging to censor the intro yet again, lied in the edit summary by saying that there was an agreement to not edit the intro (right after I included my laundry list of examples above about how there was *never* such an agreement). If you give them three months to write an intro, they'll just pretend that they're seeking consensus when in fact they'll just enjoy the next 3-month extension of the censorship that was handed to them on a silver platter (and then at the end, they'll still object to having a proper intro). You're acting as though the Aesthetic Realists are reasonable and are editing in good faith. Neither is true. A WP tenet is _assume_ good faith, but after editors demonstrate blatantly, consistently, and over a long period of time that they're *not* editing in good faith, there's no reason to keep pretending that they are. AR is best-known for its supposed gay cure and for being considered a cult, period, no gray area, no evidence to the contrary, full stop. There are a plethora of references to support this. That's why these things go in the intro, even if the Aesthetic Realists don't like it. They've gotten their way around here -- to the detriment of a good article -- for far too long. I see zero reason to keep trying to humor and mollify them. The unreasonable wishes of a biased group shouldn't trump having a proper article about the subject in question. Why are we letting unreasonable people hold up the editing of the article? Who does that serve (besides those unreasonable people)? MichaelBluejay ( talk) 10:47, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Using the phrase “proper intro” is a euphemism for the intro Michael Bluejay is promoting, not an intro that is true to the subject matter in the article. The Wikipedia article on Aesthetic Realism can’t be used to promote a self-published site. The reputations of real people are at stake here.
Regarding the change from homosexuality, if someone wants to say Aesthetic Realism gained national attention in the mid 1970s and 80s for the fact that men changed from homosexuality through studying it, fine. I object to the word “claim” because it is not a claim, there are real, breathing men who have changed and the change can easily be verified.
There is no war here between men who have changed and men who choose to live a gay lifestyle. Every person has the right to live his life the way he wants to. In the spirit of cultural inclusion, I ask that you also give the men who changed a right to live their lives in the way they choose to. They deserve your respect, whether you agree with their choice or not.
I am going to look at the intro Will Beback points to now. LoreMariano ( talk) 15:46, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy of aesthetics founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941.[4] Its primary teachings are:
- Beauty in art is the making one of opposites, such as order and freedom, logic and passion, strength and grace.
- Everyone's deepest desire is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis.
- The desire to have contempt—that is, to lessen the meaning of things in order to see one's self as superior—causes unhappiness and even insanity.
Students of Aesthetic Realism promoted it as a way for gays and lesbians to stop being homosexual (1971 to 1990), and still view it as the answer to poverty and racism. They use the Aesthetic Realism principles to analyze and teach a wide variety of topics, including classes in poetry, anthropology, art, music, and marriage. The philosophy is taught at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation in New York City.
Aesthetic Realism is controversial for its assertion that it can change gay people to straight[6], and for allegations that it operates as a mind-control cult.[7] Aesthetic Realists counter that their critics are attempting to denigrate a benevolent, scientific philosophy that is beneficial to humanity.[8]
A great deal of careful research and work has been done on this article, and the work is ongoing. I think it would be unwise to put up a temporary lead under pressure, so I am against it. Nathan43 ( talk) 12:47, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Aesthetic Realism is a philosophy created by Eli Siegel (1902–1978) in 1941. In 1973 Siegel's students founded the Aesthetic Realism Foundation to teach the philosophy. Aesthetic Realists believe that most of the world's problems could be solved by the study of Aesthetic Realism, which is based on these principles:
The Foundation is based in SoHo in New York City and teaches Aesthetic Realism through lectures, classes, and "consultations", in which three advanced students called "consultants" meet with another student.
Aesthetic Realism is controversial for its claim that it can change gay people to straight[6], and for allegations that it operates as a mind-control cult.[7]
Aesthetic Realism is a philosophy created by Eli Siegel (1902–1978) in 1941. Aesthetic Realists believe that root of humankind's problems--personal unhappiness, family conflicts, social strife, poverty, racism, and war--can be understood and resolved by the study of Aesthetic Realism, which is based on three core principles. First, according to Siegel, the deepest desire of every person is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis. Second, the greatest danger for a person is to have contempt for the world and what is in it--contempt defined as lessening what is different from oneself as a means to make the self seem more important. And third, all beauty is a making one of opposites, and the making one of opposites is what people are truly seeking. [8]
These teachings are promoted by the Aesthetic Realism Foundation, a non-profit organization based in SoHo, New York City through a variety of lectures, classes, art events, and "consultations", in which individual students meet with three teachers called "consultants".
Throughout the history of the organization, Aesthetic Realists have criticized the lack of recognition of their philosophy in mainstream press.[9][10][11][12][13][14] Although Aesthetic Realism was well received within artistic, aesthetic, anthropological, and pedagogical circles, it never received widespread attention or endorsement by the media, psychologists, or academic philosophers. Aesthetic Realism has been controversial for the claim that it could change gay people's sexual orientation by teaching them to perceive and like the world "as it is". [15] The organization has also been accused by some ex-students and researchers for operating as a cult.[16][17][18][19][20] [21][22] Aesthetic Realists have responded that the homosexuality issue is a part of their past not central to the philosophy, and that the accusations of being a cult are based on lies.
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941. In The Right of Aesthetic Realism to Be Known, #247 (December 21, 1977), he presented Aesthetic Realism as a three-part study this way:
Students of Aesthetic Realism promoted it as a way for gays and lesbians to stop being homosexual (1971 to 1990), and still view it as the answer to poverty and racism. They use the Aesthetic Realism principles to analyze and teach a wide variety of topics, including classes in poetry, anthropology, art, music, and marriage. The philosophy is taught at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation in New York City.
Critics allege that, while a number of Siegel's ideas have merit, the Aesthetic Realists comprise a cult. [2] Aesthetic Realism proponents say that their critics are attempting to smear a benevolent, scientific philosophy that is beneficial to humanity.
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy of aesthetics founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941.[4] Its primary teachings are:
Students of Aesthetic Realism promoted it as a way for gays and lesbians to stop being homosexual (1971 to 1990), and still view it as the answer to poverty and racism. They use the Aesthetic Realism principles to analyze and teach a wide variety of topics, including classes in poetry, anthropology, art, music, and marriage. The philosophy is taught at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation in New York City.
Critics allege that, while a number of Siegel's ideas have merit, the Aesthetic Realists comprise a cult. [5] Aesthetic Realism proponents say that their critics are attempting to smear a benevolent, scientific philosophy that is beneficial to humanity.
(Just to show how unreasonable and unencyclopedic the AR people are.)
The truth of the principles of Aesthetic Realism has held up through multitudinous testing for 60 years. Their scientific value and personal value to the lives of individuals has been affirmed in hundreds of first hand accounts in seminars and essays. [20] The single criticism has been social: a number of individuals, particularly since 1990, have alleged that students of Aesthetic Realism are not educators and students but they are really followers of a cult. These individuals have initiated two newspaper articles to that effect [21] But the scientific and aesthetic ideas of Aesthetic Realism are too firmly established for any claims of fraudulence or self-deception to hold up. Indeed, say proponents of Aesthetic Realism, these so-called “critics” are lying for purposes of their own, and the articles they initiated are nothing but deliberate disinformation. About 70 artists, musicians, social scientists, business people, medical specialists, and so on, have posted detailed refutations of these lies on the website Friends of Aesthetic Realism--Countering the Lies.
This is the lede I propose. I hope it's acceptable to everyone.
Aesthetic Realism is a philosophy founded by Eli Siegel (1902–1978) in 1941. It is based on three core principles. First, according to Siegel, the deepest desire of every person is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis. Second, the greatest danger for a person is to have contempt for the world and what is in it—contempt defined as the false importance or glory from the lessening of things not oneself. And third, it is the study of how what makes for beauty in art is a guide for a good life: “All beauty is a making one of opposites, and the making one of opposites is what we are going after in ourselves.” [61]
These teachings are promoted by the Aesthetic Realism Foundation, a non-profit foundation based in SoHo, New York City, through a variety of lectures, classes in poetry, anthropology, art, and music, art events, and individual consultations.
Over the decades, Aesthetic Realists have criticized the lack of recognition of their philosophy in mainstream press. [62] [63] [64] [65]Although Aesthetic Realism has been well received within artistic, aesthetic, anthropological, and pedagogical circles, it has not received widespread attention by the media, psychologists, or academic philosophers.
Between 1970 and 1990, the Aesthetic Realism Foundation was controversial for its assertion that through the study of this philosophy, men changed from homosexuality. [66] Not wishing to be a source of anger on the subject (it always was fully in favor of equal rights for all, regardless of sexual orientation), in 1990 the Foundation stopped giving consultations to change from homosexuality and discontinued its presentation of the change, which was never central to the philosophy itself. Some men who had Aesthetic Realism consultations later said they did not change, and chose to live a gay lifestyle; others said that their change has been complete and lasting.
Some former students have expressed anger at Aesthetic Realism and called it a cult, [67]while other former students have objected to such a characterization, saying it is nothing of the kind, and have praised it for its enduring good effect on their lives. [68] LoreMariano ( talk) 02:48, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Okay! We have a new proposed lead from the AR side! Sure, it's far from encyclopaedic, but I'm willing to try to work with it in good faith. So here we go... The first three paragraphs are okay with me, so I'll start with the first sentence of the fourth paragraph: Between 1970 and 1990, the Aesthetic Realism Foundation was controversial for its assertion that through the study of this philosophy, men changed from homosexuality. First of all, Aesthetic Realism is *still* controversial for its past promotion of its gay-change program. That's (for example) why the New York Blade titled their article "Anti-Gay Cult Pulls a Fast One" just a couple of years ago. On the other end of the timeline, we don't know exactly when AR became *controversial* for its program, only when the program started. I'm pretty sure AR's book _The H Persuasion_ says something like, "Since 1965, there has been more or less a continuous effort to have the change from homosexuality documented in the press." (I don't have my copy handy at the moment.) Also, Aesthetic Realists *still* believe that homosexuality is amenable to change through the study of AR, even if AR no longer offers a program of change, which helps extend the controversy to the present. Finally, it's not just men who supposedly changed, it was also women. So my suggested replacement for the first sentence is:
Slight change of topic: Previously there was a lot of discussion about how to word and source the definition of Aesthetic Realism. One of the journal articles listed on the sources page has a definition, and claims SIegel as the source, but I'm not sure that particular definition has been discussed here. I'm mentioning this journal article because some Wikipedians really like them as sources, since they're ostensibly more credible, so I should point out that the article isn't truly independent/third party since it's written by an Aesthetic Realism teacher. Personally I don't think that's a problem, but I'm just offering full disclosure, in case anyone thinks this is kind of a sourcing sleight-of-hand. Anyway, here's the definition from the journal article:
In 1977 [Siegel] gave a compact, tripartite description of his philosophy:
One, Man's greatest, deepest desire is to like the world honestly. Two, The one way to like the world honestly, not as a conquest of one's own, is to see the world as the aesthetic oneness of opposites. Three, The greatest danger or temptation of man is to get a false importance or glory from the lessening of things not himself; which lessening is contempt. British Journal of Aesthetics
Siegel variously explained Aesthetic Realism in similar (but not exact) different ways over the years. Clearly he felt the concepts were more important than the actual wording and that there was more than one way to describe them. Though some of these off-the-cuff definitions are probably better than others, and I'm not sure this particular one is best, especially as its explanation of contempt isn't necessarily clear, and doesn't show the importance to which Aesthetic Realism places on it. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 07:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
LoreMariano ( talk) 14:14, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I object to referring to the change as a discussion of "beliefs" and therefore I do not agree to this change. I can live with the part of the sentence which starts "Due to the negative response to their positions on this subject..." if you add: "Due to the negative response by gay advocacy groups on this subject...." LoreMariano ( talk) 21:26, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
First, I apologize for introducing a different topic in this thread earlier. My bad, won't happen again. Second, I would have responded earlier to this thread, but I only just now noticed the discussion had been continuing. I'm kind of alarmed at the one-day deadline for objections proposed. So now to the discussion: I object to our saying that AR stopped its gay-change program because of anger (or whatever) about it, because that's only part of the story. They also stopped it because when so many of their success stories fell off the wagon and decided they were really gay after all, the foundation had a hard time continuing to promote their program with a straight face...especially when they had taken the opportunity to proclaim the change as "permanent" at every opportunity. If the media came calling and asked, "So these specific people [e.g. from the books and TV interviews] who said they changed permanently, they still consider themselves changed, and credit Siegel with that change? Can we talk to them?", the answer would of course be uncomfortable. Now, I can't *prove* that this is one of the reasons that AR stopped its program, but the point is, neither can ARF prove that it stopped only because of "anger from the gay rights lobby". As a result, *neither* should be presented as fact. Instead, they have to be presented as claims. For example, "In 1990 the foundation stopped offering its program of change, saying that the issue was divisive and it didn't want to be involved in the controversy. Critics allege that another reason the foundation stopped its program was that it was embarrassed that many of those who said they changed later reverted to a gay lifestyle."
Next, I object to our saying that "some former members" claim that AR is a cult. New York Magazine, Commentary Magazine, Harper's, the New York Times, and noted cult expert Steve Hassan are not former members of AR. I suggest, "The foundation has been called a cult by former members and the media, though the foundation denies that allegation, saying that its critics are 'liars'." MichaelBluejay ( talk) 03:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
WillBeback, I think you're really going overboard about "self-published" sources. AR's Countering the Lies website is absolutely a valid source for the kind of thing we're referencing.
So, I think you're really over-applying the policy outside the bounds of what the policy actually says, and certainly outside the intent of the policy. So unless the policy is clarified to the contrary, I'm going to push back pretty hard on the idea that we can't cite a website as evidence of *claims*.
Finally, Trouver's suggestion is almost acceptable. The phrase "presenting this change" is a bit ambiguous and then there's the problem that it talks about the change as though it were fact. Less ambiguous and less POV would be, "The Aesthetic Realism Foundation has faced controversy for its assertion that studying the philosophy could make gays become straight, and in 1990 it stopped offering counseling for gays seeking to become heterosexual." MichaelBluejay ( talk) 14:22, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
OK, so here is what we have:
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy founded by Eli Siegel (1902–1978) in 1941. It is based on three core principles. First, according to Siegel, the deepest desire of every person is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis. Second, the greatest danger for a person is to have contempt for the world and what is in it—contempt defined as the false importance or glory from the lessening of things not oneself. And third, it is the study of how what makes for beauty in art is a guide for a good life: "All beauty is a making one of opposites, and the making one of opposites is what we are going after in ourselves."[1]
The philosophy is principally taught at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation, a non-profit educational foundation based in SoHo, New York City, through a variety of lectures, classes in poetry, anthropology, art, music, and individual consultations.
The Foundation faced controversy for its assertion that men changed from homosexuality through study of this philosophy, and in 1990 it formally stopped presenting this change. Some former students have said that Aesthetic Realism is a cult,[2] but other former (and current) students say it is nothing of the kind.[3]
- Jonathunder ( talk) 19:02, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. The article has been without a lead for too long already. I don't know why you think that working on the article would make the lead easier to resolve in the future. Do you think that once the article is done, people like Cyberpathfinder *won't* continue to protest, based on their lack of understanding of how an encyclopedia works? There will always be conflict. Putting it on the shelf doesn't solve anything, it just postpones the conflict. Let's work towards a resolution now. Let me repeat the suggestion I made earlier:
Not that Cyberpathfinder's comments merit a reply, but: (1) It doesn't matter that ARF never described consultations as "counseling". Stormfront never described itself as a racist organization, either. Groups don't get to choose how they're reported on. (2) Ditto for Aesthetic Realists not referring to themselves as Aesthetic Realists in recent times. You're welcome to suggest an alternative. (3) Enough people and media have called Aesthetic Realism a cult that we report that allegation. WP doesn't pass judgement on the claim, it just reports the claim, because the claim has been made, in enough quarters, including in the media. When New York Magazine calls Aesthetic Realism "a cult of messianic nothingness", when Harper's calls Aesthetic Realists "the Moonies of poetry", and when probably the most recognized expert on mind-control cults says that Aesthetic Realism is one, it would be *irresponsible* for an encyclopedia not to report that claim. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 18:41, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Per request, I've set up Talk:Aesthetic Realism/drafts3 as a page to discuss a new draft of the history section. Will Beback talk 22:13, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I would like to make the following changes if there are no objections:
1. Post the rewrite of "Aesthetic Realism and the opposition to prejudice and racism" which has been ready since April 17 Talk:Aesthetic Realism/drafts2.
2. Cut the section titled "Aesthetic Realism scholarship" as the references contained in that section have been moved into "Aesthetic Realism and the arts" as footnoted references.
3. As was suggested by Trouver 4 weeks ago, edit the title of the final section to "Criticism and response". Talk:Aesthetic Realism/drafts3
4. Replace the POV template at the top of the article page with the controversial template.
5. In order to more accurately describe the profession, change "researchers" to "cult researchers" in the last section.
LoreMariano ( talk) 01:17, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
I will make these changes this weekend. LoreMariano ( talk) 15:25, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
This note is directed to Ocaasi: I welcome your suggested contributions as I'm sure others do, but given the history of the entry, we cannot make any changes without consensus.
That said, here are my comments regarding your edits:
I have no objection to this change.
The original heading is more appropriate in my opinion. The section is not about the importance of poetry per se, it is about poetry and Aesthetic Realism as a subject in itself. Aesthetic Realism arose from a poetic way of seeing. There may be a better heading than Poetry and Aesthetic Realism but I don't think the suggested change is an improvement.
Removing the article (“the”) and the words "Aesthetic Realism" generalizes it in a bad way. It’s not about opposition to prejudice and racism generally, it is about how Aesthetic Realism opposes prejudice and racism. I don’t think this suggested change is an improvement.
I have no objection to this change. I don’t know what the “also” was in reference to. LoreMariano ( talk) 14:53, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
I like your suggestion of "Poetry" as a (plain noun) heading and I see your point about the assumption that headings are in context to the entry itself. Changing the others in question, the headings would now read:
Do you think "Prejudice and racism" should be changed to simply "Racism"? LoreMariano ( talk) 03:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Before we go into more discussion about edits to the headings, are you suggesting that we look at all headings with the words "Aesthetic Realism" in the title which would be these five: 2, 3.2, 3.3, 3.4, and 4?
LoreMariano ( talk) 21:35, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
Ocaasi, thanks for editing. We need more impartial editors for this article. However, please don't intersperse your Talk between others' Talk. It makes it difficult to see the chronology of the discussion, and for that reason we all agreed that we wouldn't do that here. But again, thank you for coming by, and I hope you continue to improve the article, especially as I don't have much time to work on it any more myself. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 11:18, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the concern about the sections on homosexuality and racism, how about: 'Ending Racism' for the section on racism? For the section on homosexuality, I suggest "Approach to Homosexuality". I think it is neutral and clear. LoreMariano ( talk) 14:37, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Re: "There are many approaches to homosexuality, but the section is about AR's approach." Yes...perhaps the title should be even more specific to distinguish it from other approaches, for example: "Approach to Homosexuality as a Philosophic Matter." I don't like the idea of making it that long and I think it's clear from the content that the approach is philosophic.
Re: "Do you think 'opposition to homosexuality' is inaccurate or too narrow?" Yes! Narrow and misleading. Aesthetic Realism is for homosexual persons enjoying full, equal civil rights and that title sounds like it's opposed. LoreMariano ( talk) 03:54, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
OL, can you provide me a link, ideally to the AR foundation's website where they maintain that people 'changing' from homosexuality to heterosexuality is still promoted, sought, or accomplished today? Ocaasi c 03:34, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
add to this list if you have an option, preferably a short, detailed, neutral option
Regarding the post of Outerlimits: This editor has a right to his opinions, but the phrase "final solution to the homosexual question" with its clear reference to Nazi atrocities is grossly insulting, and has no place on these pages. I changed from homosexuality through Aesthetic Realism and I know that it has always been for justice and full civil rights for all people, including homosexuals. If, for example, men and women have the right to change their sex (and they should have that right), shouldn't there also be the right to change one's sexual preference, if that is what a person wants?
As to the suggestions of Ocassi, I think “homosexuality conversion” comes across as making things too narrow. I think “approach to homosexuality” is neutral and clear. CSaguaro ( talk) 02:47, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Not acceptable:
Here are my comments on the first list of titles:
According to our article on conversion therapy, "The American Psychological Association defines conversion therapy as therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation." It strikes me that conversion philosophy would be philosophy aimed at changing sexual orientation. Homosexuality and claims of changing sexual orientation or Homosexuality and changing sexual orientation might also work. If we can't solve this soon, we should draft the section first, and just use a neutral title in the meantime (Approach to Homosexuality is neutral, although too general IMO). Ocaasi c 22:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Ocaasi, look at the last sentence in the section on homosexuality. Presentations and consultations on the subject of homosexuality were discontinued in 1990.
Re: section on racism -- although there is a lot of current work done on ending racism, there is no official mission or campaign to end racism by the Aesthetic Realism Foundation that I am aware of. The purpose of the Aesthetic Realism Foundation is described in the info box in the article: "Aesthetic Realism, founded in 1941 by poet and critic Eli Siegel (1902-78), is a philosophy dedicated to the understanding of, and greater respect for, people, art, and reality."
The section on the arts and ARF both contain a lot of historical content so my opinion is that they're good where they are.
I don't see how "Homosexuality and changing sexual orientation" is an endorsement, it's a subject. However, for simplicity's sake, I suggest we change it back to 'homosexuality' and change the racism section back to 'opposition to prejudice and racism'. LoreMariano ( talk) 23:28, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
"I'm not so sure most journalists, doctors and psychologists would call Aesthetic Realism consultations therapy." We've been over this before. There are lots of references on the Sources page showing that they call it that very thing.
I still stand by my rec's for the H section, with my top pick being "Homosexuality conversion therapy", which is short, descriptive, accurate, and neutral. "Approach to homosexuality" is insufficient because it doesn't describe the attempts to change gays.
"I think Opposition to prejudice and racism is good." I'm afraid I have to object, because AR's goal in trumpeting its supposed answer to racism isn't to end racism so much as it is to promote AR itself. This is just like what they did with the gay issue, though at least this time they picked a more palatable target. I know I can't prove this and so I'm not suggesting that we write the article from that perspective, but neither do we write it in AR's favor either, as though their efforts were completely pure. I would suggest "Answer to racism" with that phrase in quotes, showing that we're quoting the way they describe it themselves (it's the title of their book), so that WP isn't taking a stand one way or the other on whether their efforts really genuine or not.
I think Ocaasi has a good handle on the issues surrounding the wording of the headings. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 08:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Ocaasi, mentioning my feelings on AR's motivations was necessary in order to explain why I objected to the proposed heading. As for the gay change section header, I agree with OL, "H Persuasion" is too obtuse, and the section is about their gay change program, not the book. About the book, the full title is: "The H Persuasion: How Persons Have Permanently Changed from Homosexuality Through the Study of Aesthetic Realism With Eli Siegel". I'd agree to a section heading of "Change" from homosexuality. The quotes serve double-duty: We're quoting AR's actual word, while distancing ourselves from asserting that it really happened. MichaelBluejay ( talk)
Perhaps I don't know how you feel about AR, but I know what you've written about AR. There's a great deal of information which makes clear your position on what they do and why. I don't think it particularly helps us to bring up that point of view on this page, since we're going to rely on sources in the end anyway. What I meant by personal was not so much about your position but rather your comments on others editors' motivations. If it appears someone suggested something which is not a good heading, for example, I prefer to just say why that's not a good heading, or that it might obscure topic x, rather than suggest that they are trying to obscure topic x. This is often just semantics, but this is a Wiki, and words are all we have. I'm trying to keep the editing content-centric and efficient, in the interest of getting good results and avoiding the battleground between group supporters and critics.
Thanks for finding some consensus on titles. If we just pare down the list that people are okay with, maybe the intersection will be a viable one (rather than an empty set). I'm curious why you don't care for #3 and #4. Although the main title is general, the bolded sub-sections would be very specific. Here's the ever expanding but converging list:
There are objections to using: "conversion", "change" if not in quotes, "therapy", and "emphasis". "Assertion" is preferred to "claim". My vote is still for Homosexuality, "change" and controversy but I'm okay with any here. All we need is ONE that all can work with. If this was a clever game (and I was in control of it), I'd say everyone should pick numbers they're ok with, and if there wasn't a group match I'd just write it myself. Or everyone should unbold the ones they don't like and we'll see what's left. Or... we can ask Will Beback to pick? Maybe everyone could just write out the one's they're ok below with and we'll see if there's an overlap. Ocaasi c 05:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm not opposed to that, but I have a feeling AR friends will be. Fairly so, if it suggests that controversy was inherent to the approach rather than something that followed it. (I've made similar objections to calling astrology 'a pseudoscientific practice' rather than 'a practice, which is pseudoscientific'). OL, if you're okay with 'assertions' then we should scrub them from the list to pare down further. Ocaasi c 06:12, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm inclined to try and pick from these and call it a day. Or we can go back to Homosexuality and Aesthetic Realism (the original freakin title)
The above 4 are neutral and comprehensive. I think the role of AR is sufficiently implied or stated. This section is not just about the claims or the controversy or the philosophy. It's really all 3, starting with how AR views homosexuality as an outgrowth of contempt, then the series of testimonies and advocacy, then the controversy/backlash leading to VOTP and eventual (public) retraction. Although it's very important to those who look negatively at this period in AR's history that the "claim it cured gays" is emphasized, I don't think this is the overarching title. It's may be the key point--the thesis, so to speak--but it's not the title or general subject.
MBJ, The reason I asked about women is because homosexual and gay can have different gender connotations and they've also changed over time. I think your website does not meet WP:SPS requirements, so I would prefer any links to articles or images be posted on the sources subpages here, just so I know which ones are actually going to be usable in this article. Are any of the images you mention public domain or with a copyright status we could upload here? Would they meet RS? (Or a fair use exemption, is also an option, but that's getting ahead of ourselves). Ocaasi c 12:09, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Not sure if' back-channel' was suggesting an attempt to short-cut this discussion, but I was pretty clear that we should make the uncontroversial changes and check back here about homosexuality and racism. Comprehensive and short are in tension but I find that it is possible to achieve both, just not with consensus. My personal preference is none of the suggestions that have been discussed. I would do:
==Homosexuality==
===Philosophic approach===
===Claims gays changed sexual orientation===
===Controversy===
...and I'm pretty sure one way or another that offends everyone. Anyway, let's make the uncontroversial changes to the headers (everything except homosexuality/racism) and then throw around the titles if need be.
Ocaasi
c
04:30, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
In keeping with our purpose stated above by Outerlimits "to find an acceptable consensus," I'm okay with this title suggested by Michaelbluejay: Assertions that sexual orientation can be changed. I would prefer Assertion that sexual orientation changed since the Aesthetic Realism Foundation no longer gives consultations on this subject, but I can live with it as stated by Michaelbluejay and (I think) approved by Outerlimits ("much...preferred over the others, because [it] accurately focus[es] on the crux of the matter." LoreMariano ( talk) 19:38, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Ocaasi, Yes, let's go forward with the simple changes--
Thinking about the difference between Assertions that sexual orientation can be changed and Assertion that sexual orientation changed, I think the main difference is that the first implies it's possible ("can be" changed) but it leaves a question in the reader's mind as to whether it ever did. The second seems to imply that it is possible because it has occurred, "sexual orientation changed" and therefore it is possible that "it can change." At any rate, the second title is stating that it is an assertion, it's not stated as a fact, so I think it's NPOV and it does reflect the content of the section. LoreMariano ( talk) 20:53, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
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Due to the recurring disputes concerning this article I strongly recommend the active editors engage in mediation. Please see WP:MEDCAB. Will Beback talk 21:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
An uninvolved editor has posted this text in the lead:
Is there any objection to this text? How can it be improved without making it much longer? Will Beback talk 23:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I've been looking at Wikipedia's guidelines for the lead paragraph of an article; maybe I don't understand the rules... Nathan43 ( talk) 21:00, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation. That link goes to the section of rules I'd been looking at. I understand what you are saying about Christ and Stalin, (and I'm not asking you to respond to this comment) but I wonder if that also applies to scientists such as Newton and Robert Boyle? After all, we're talking about a system of principles that can be tested, not a religion or a political theory. In any case, I appreciate the feedback AND thanks for shortening this page! Nathan43 ( talk) 02:30, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
That is not entirely true. The AR people *have* cut the intro, several times, as the History clearly shows. And prior to WillBeback's own recent removal, the AR folks censored the intro repeatedly in the past. They've done it before, they're doing it now. WillBeback simply provided some cover for them to do so recently, which they've eagerly employed. The reason for cutting the intro was ostensibly so a consensus could be worked out, but are they working on that? No. Not for a good week. During this time they've made certain to repeatedly censor the article "until consensus is reached", while making no effort to actually reach consensus. If they do return to the discussion they will drag it out as long as possible so that the censored intro remains as long as possible. They fought long and hard to keep allegations of cult behavior and the gay cure out of the article, and especially out of the intro, so this is a huge win for them -- and a loss for WP and readers who come to the article expecting a good summary of the subject. As for coming to a consensus, even if the AR people would discuss it now, they've made it clear that they won't be reasonable. e.g., They strenuously object to highlighting the things that AR is best known for. Since they won't dialogue reasonably (or even at all), I'm putting in a more proper intro. And since the AR people have cut even the old consensus intro I tried to restore, I'll now put in a better-written intro, based on the intro for the Scientology article, below. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 19:05, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Mr. Bluejay. I think your draft was getting closer to being inclusive and NPOV. Please just post it on the talk page first. Though wiki policy certainly suggests you should be bold, it can be counterproductive for controversial articles; literally, it can make the situation worse. If you put a draft like that here, then we can tweak imprecise language, add and source appropriate criticisms, and deal with policy questions. I've re-posted your edit below with my own changes:
Aesthetic Realism is a philosophy created by Eli Siegel (1902–1978) in 1941. Aesthetic Realists believe that root of humankind's problems--personal unhappiness, family conflicts, social strife, poverty, racism, and war--can be understood and resolved by the study of Aesthetic Realism, which is based on three core principles. First, according to Siegel, the deepest desire of every person is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis. Second, the greatest danger for a person is to have contempt for the world and what is in it--contempt defined as lessening what is different from oneself as a means to make the self seem more important. And third, all beauty is a making one of opposites, and the making one of opposites is what people are truly seeking. [8]
These teachings are promoted by the Aesthetic Realism Foundation, a non-profit organization based in SoHo, New York City through a variety of lectures, classes, art events, and "consultations", in which individual students meet with three teachers called "consultants".
Throughout the history of the organization, Aesthetic Realists have criticized the lack of recognition of their philosophy in mainstream press. [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] Although Aesthetic Realism was well received within artistic, aesthetic, anthropological, and pedagogical circles, it never received widespread attention or endorsement by the media, psychologists, or academic philosophers.
Aesthetic Realism has been controversial for the claim that it could change gay people's sexual orientation by teaching them to perceive and like the world "as it is". [15] The organization has also been accused by some ex-students and researchers for operating as a cult. [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] Aesthetic Realists have responded that the homosexuality issue is a part of their past not central to the philosophy, and that the accusations of being a cult are based on lies. [23]
Thoughts? 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 10:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I *did* post my intro suggestion on this page. The AR people are still reverting without discussing. It's simply not acceptable for the intro to not mention what AR is notable for in the meantime. Your version of the intro is acceptable to me and I'm posting it. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 16:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is not a Wikipedia article: This is a workpage, a collection of material and work in progress that may or may not be incorporated into an article. It should not necessarily be considered factual or authoritative. |
Assuming the merge doesn't happen (and I don't think it should), I think we need a disambiguation header to redirect and inform readers who are looking for articles about realism in the academic disciplines of philosophy and aesthetics that this page is about something different. Even though "aesthetic realism" is eli siegel's meta-philosophy, the subjects of both aesthetics and realism and even realism applied to aesthetics is common within philosophical and artistic writings. (See this link: [1] 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 11:01, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Trouver, please don't intersperse your comments in the middle of other comments. For talk page etiquette, see WP:TPG. Will Beback talk 06:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
(I've extracted Trouver's annoying interspersed replies from others' comments above and listed them separately below.) MichaelBluejay ( talk) 10:07, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
71, thank you for the academic perspective you bring. I agree that a disambiguation header is called for, exactly for the reasons you suggest. If the AR devotees didn't have such knee-jerk reactions to non-AR people's ideas, they'd see that disambiguation is *good* for them, because it identifies Eli Siegel's Aesthetic Realism as something special and different from the aesthetic realism that's discussed elsewhere. But whatever. It's diplomatic that you don't mind interspersed comments, but I do, and more importantly, interspersing just isn't acceptable on WP. And finally, LoreMariano thinks she has found a trick to censor mention of AR's cult characteristics from the intro: Remove them until "consensus" can be found. I rather think it works the other way: The old version which was here for years is the default version, until consensus overrules that precedent. As such, I'm adding back the old intro, until consensus is reached otherwise. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 10:31, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I dug up the old intro, but it's terrible, so I created a new one. The Aesthetic Realists will object because it mentions the things that AR is controversial for, but that's to be expected. They're never reasonable. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 10:54, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I've undone MichaeBluejay's one sided introduction. Please do not edit without consensus. Keravnos ( talk) 13:20, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Here's just one example of academic use of the term "aesthetic realism", which I presume is unrelated to Siegel's use: "Twentieth Century American Literature: ... We will begin our inquiry at the turn of the last century in an attempt to understand the relationship between the end of the civil war, patterns of immigration/migration and the emergence of aesthetic realism." ( University of Washington) MichaelBluejay ( talk) 13:45, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
DRAFT
Aesthetic Realism is a philosophy created by
Eli Siegel (1902–1978) in 1941. Aesthetic Realists believe that the root of humankind's problems--personal unhappiness, family conflicts, social strife, poverty, racism, and war--can all be understood and resolved by the study of Aesthetic Realism, which is based on three core principles. First, according to Siegel, the deepest desire of every person is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis. Second, the greatest danger for a person is to have contempt for the world and what is in it--contempt defined as lessening what is different from oneself as a means to make the self seem more important. And third, all beauty is a making one of opposites, and the making one of opposites is what people are truly seeking.
[24]
These teachings are promoted by the Aesthetic Realism Foundation, a non-profit organization based in SoHo, New York City through a variety of lectures, classes, art events, and "consultations", in which individual students meet with three teachers called "consultants".
Throughout the history of the organization, Aesthetic Realists have criticized the lack of recognition of their philosophy in mainstream press. [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] Although Aesthetic Realism was well received within artistic, aesthetic, anthropological, and pedagogical circles, it never received widespread attention or endorsement by the media, psychologists, or academic philosophers.
Aesthetic Realism has been controversial for the claim that it could change gay people's sexual orientation by teaching them to perceive and like the world "as it is". [31] The organization has also been accused by some ex-students and researchers for operating as a cult. [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] Aesthetic Realists have responded that the homosexuality issue is a part of their past not central to the philosophy, and that the accusations of being a cult are based on lies. [41]
Are there specific criticisms...
Please discuss them here. I will also revert adding this to the main page without letting it improve on the talk page for at least a few days. 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 21:55, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
71, you're not listening to me. Your saying, "Again, the ARists DID NOT stub the intro. Will Beback did...." misses the point that the AR people have reverted to the stubbed version, repeatedly, every single time I try to post a legitimate intro. Yes WillBeback stubbed it, too, providing them the kind of cover for their censorship they could previously only dream of. Before Will handed them the golden ticket, they engaged in the same sort of censorship for years. And now the article has been locked down to the censored version. This is a *huge* victory for them, as a censored version that doesn't mention the controversial things that AR is known for, is precisely what they wanted all along. Don't think there's not celebrating going on about this at 141 Greene Street. And it's no coincidence that they don't want the intro addressed until everything else is addressed, because the longer they can drag out the process, the longer the censored version will remain. Working on a rewrite is a smokescreen in any event, because they've made it clear repeatedly over the years that they don't think the cult allegations or the gay cure should be part of the article, or if so then those bits should be buried and neutered beyond all reason. The admins around here are playing right into their hands. We used to be able to count on them to help us ensure that articles were fair and encyclopaedic. Now they're joining in with the censorship and even locking the censored version into place -- both over the objection of at least two other long-time editors. It's pretty sad. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 12:12, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
P.S. "If you want to make an edit, at least propose it on talk and let it sit for a day so people can respond." Are you *** kidding me?! I have been posting my drafts and the AR people are reverting without discussing. They don't want to discuss, they want to censor. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 12:14, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
So, before the editing block goes up on the 14th, I thought we could try to figure out an editing plan so we don't all just go edit-warring. I added a to-do list to the talk-header, which you can edit just like a normal article. It might sound a little preachy as I added some basic editing policy links, but the real purpose is to give us a place for a nuts-and-bolts stuff we can actually do, cross off, and get posted to the main page.
Meanwhile, a question? Do we want the block removed yet? Or would it be better to work on the drafts and have an admin transfer individual pieces as we find consensus? 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 14:21, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Aesthetic Realism: The Philosophy
Aesthetic Realism is based on the idea that reality, or the world, has a structure that is beautiful. Eli Siegel defined beauty as the making one, or unity, of opposites.[44][45]
In Siegel's critical theory of art, a good poem is both logical and passionate at once.[46] Logic embodies order while passion accentuates freedom. His studies led him to conclude that any successful work of art or music combines essential dualities. In the philosophy of Aesthetic Realism, Siegel developed this concept, writing that the arts and sciences all give evidence that reality has an aesthetic nature[41][42][43][44][45] He envisioned the world sharing the quality of construction characteristic to good poems; it too, is composed of opposites. In Siegel's eyes, freedom at one with order could be seen in an electron, a tree, or the solar system.[47] Siegel also asked, "since a beautiful poem is one and many, and reality is one and many, isn't this evidence too that reality is beautiful and can be liked the way we like a good poem?"[48]
This idea led to Siegel's primary belief, that the world "can be liked honestly". Further, a core teaching of Aesthetic Realism is that it is "every person's deepest desire to like the world on an honest or accurate basis." [5]
But Siegel recognized another competing desire which drives humans away from such an appreciation—the desire to have contempt for the world and what is in it, in order to make oneself feel more important.[49][50][51] Siegel argued that when a person seeks self-esteem through contempt--"the addition to self through lessening something else"--he or she is unjust to people and things.[49] Contempt, the philosophy maintains, may seem like a triumph, but ultimately results in self-dislike[1] and mental distress,[56] and in doing so, lessens the capacity of one's mind to perceive and feel in the fullest manner. Siegel held that, in the extreme, contempt causes insanity.[57][58]
Aesthetic Realism attests that one’s attitude to the world governs how all of life's components are seen: a friend, a spouse, a lover, a book, food, people of another skin tone.[53][54] Accordingly, Aesthetic Realism argues, individuals have an ethical obligation to give full value to things and people, not devalue them in order to make oneself seem more important. Aesthetic Realism states that conscious intention to be fair to the world and people is not only an ethical obligation, but the means of liking oneself.[59][60][61]
The philosophy identifies contempt as the underlying cause of broader social problems as well: societal evils like racism and war arise from contempt for “human beings placed differently from ourselves" in terms of race, economic status, or nationality. Siegel stated that for centuries ill will has been the predominant purpose in humanity's economic activities. The philosophy asserts that humanity cannot overcome its biggest problems until people cease to feel that “the world’s failure or the failure of a[nother] person enhances one’s own life.” Siegel stated that until good will rather than contempt is at the center of economics and in the thoughts of people, “civilization has yet to begin.”[52]
71.224.206.164 ( talk) 02:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Lore and I (71) worked over the last week and a half to put this together and really tighten up the language. I hope (we both do) that it comes across as faithful to the letter and spirit of the philosophy as well as completely objective and appropriately dispassionate. This should be one of the easier sections to edit, but if you have any issues, please list them here (or edit the draft directly, preferably after discussion). The numbers in the title are just dates (draft started, posted to talk, posted to mainpage).
Well, not too surprisingly, no one cares about starting a big edit war until we get to the exciting parts. So, I'm going to post this to the mainpage, and if there are minor issues we can work them out later.
The next section Lore and I are working on is the Poetry section. Still pretty uncontroversial, but to the extent that we include praise about the poetry, I'd like to reference alternate, critical views. So if you know of any sources that reference Siegel's poetry, or it's relationship to Aesthetic Realism in a critical way, this might be the section in which to incorporate it (I'd ask for positive commentary as well, but Keravnos and others already collected a lot of it). 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 22:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
71 appears to be MIA. (S)he was the only independent editor working on the section-by-section rewrite, so without him/her, I intend to put a proper encyclopedic intro into this article. Yes, I know the AR people will object that there's not "consensus" to do so (since the AR people will obviously never consent to the more unflattering aspects of AR being presented), but they should remember that there is certainly no consensus to keep a proper intro *out* of the article. At least Outerlimits and I agree that the article should have a proper intro now. If 71 returns, I'll agree to go back to his tedious method of rewriting the whole article from scratch before we tackle the intro. But so long as s/he's absent, the article should have a proper intro. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 22:50, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Keravnos, whoever you are, the term " vandalism" has a very specific meaning here on Wikipedia, and my putting a proper intro into the article is certainly not it. Please familiarize yourself with this term as it's used on WP. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 21:32, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Just so I don't get accused by editing without discussing for those unfamiliar with the history of this article, here is my attempt to discuss adding the intro back to the article. The Aesthetic Realists don't want the Intro section to point out the more unflattering things about AR (such as their "gay cure", the allegations by former members and the press that they're a mind-control cult, and that the founder killed himself). Indeed, they've been trying to censor any mention of those things for years. Recently they've taken a new tactic, claiming that they're just innocently waiting for the article to be rewritten before tackling a new lead section, and stubbing the lead down to almost nothing any time anyone tries to insert a proper intro. They will drag that process out as long as possible, and even when it's done, possibly years from now, they're still gonna object to a complete and neutral intro, just as they've objected for years. There is no compelling justification for this article to not have a good lead, right now. I'm certainly willing to discuss the wording of the intro, as always, as long as that discussion happens in good faith. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 18:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
P.S. I'm going to be unavailable until early April, at the earliest. At that time if the article doesn't have a proper intro then I'll request mediation. If that fails I'll request arbitration. The article should have a proper intro. It's sad that admins here are giving cover to the Aesthetic Realist's agenda of censorship. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 21:46, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
I opened a formal Mediation Cabal to assist. Hopefully, the delay will end shortly. LoreMariano ( talk) 00:58, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
(Revised draft, 3/19/10)
Eli Siegel stated that ideas central to the philosophy of Aesthetic Realism were implicitly present in “Hot Afternoons Have Been in Montana,”
[42] the poem that brought him widespread fame when it was awarded The Nation's esteemed poetry prize in 1925. The philosophic principle that individuality is relation, “that the very self of a thing is its relations, its having-to-do-with other things” is in this poem.
[43] It begins with a hot, quiet afternoon in Montana and travels through time and space, showing that things usually thought of as separate and unrelated “have a great deal to do with each other.”
[44] These are lines near the end of the poem:
The search for that which connects all branches of knowledge [45] led Siegel to discover a key concept of Aesthetic Realism: “The world, art, and self explain each other: each is the aesthetic oneness of opposites.” [46] In Aesthetic Realism classes, he criticized the “intricate tepidity” of T. S. Eliot, whom he declared was “not a poet” [47] and the widely accepted Freudian view of art as sublimation. [48] Aesthetic Realism classes were scholarly [49] and demonstrated that poetry was related to the problems of everyday life. [50] The viewpoint of Aesthetic Realism is that “what makes a good poem is like what can make a good life.” [51]
Siegel defined poetry as “the oneness of the permanent opposites in reality as seen by an individual.” [52] In Aesthetic Realism classes he explained that the greatest desire of a person is to put together opposites, as, in a good poem, “emotion changes into logic: there is no rift between the two.” [53] He maintained that music distinguishes true poetry, whatever the language, period or style; the music of a poem shows the poet has honestly perceived opposites as one, and sincerely united personal feelings with the impersonal structure of the world. [54] “Poetry,” he wrote, “arises out of a like of the world so intense and wide that of itself, it is musical.” [55] Therefore, Aesthetic Realism teaches, even a poem that in substance seems to condemn the world, in its technique and music is praising the world, seeing it truly.
In thousands of Aesthetic Realism lectures, Siegel demonstrated the centrality of poetry to every aspect of life, including "Poetry and Anger," "Poetry and Love," "Educational Method Is Poetic,” "Poetry and Time," "Poetry, Money, and Good Will," “A Poetic Technique of Parenthood,” “Poetry and History,” and “Hamlet Revisited; or, the Family Should Be Poetry.” [56] His students affirm that an important aspect of the philosophy continues to be the study of how a good poem has within it “the composition, beauty, sanity we want in ourselves." This education, they assert, “makes it possible for poetry to be, as Matthew Arnold said, a criticism of life.” [57]
Trouver ( talk) 18:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
THer is an outstanding medaitaion on this article at Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2010-03-11/Aesthetic_Realism that has been completely ignored. unless anyone has a particular objection, I'm going to mark that case as closed. if there's any interest in the process later, the case can be reopened. -- Ludwigs2 10:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Here is the archived page which contains the history of the rewrite process with IP 71 [6] as mediator. I respectfully request a lockdown of the stubbed article until there is agreement to move forward with a new mediator. LoreMariano ( talk) 02:44, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Please let's maintain civility and not be insulting. The article does need an intro. Does anyone think there should be an article without an intro? I for one do not want two years to pass before we have a finished article. I don't see how anyone gains from that. However, the article should be honest and NPOV. Does anyone disagree with that? The fact is that for several weeks (maybe a month; I don't remember) work was done following IP71's suggestion and with WillBeback's advice (or maybe the other way around) that the article needed better sourcing and should be revised paragraph by paragraph. This takes a lot of time and work, I'm sure. You can see all the sources that have been gathered. It's pretty impressive. That must have taken a great deal of thought and I'm thankful that it was done. Work that was done in good faith should not be discounted. Several sections have already been rewritten, I think. Let's see through the process. We are much closer at this point to coming up with an introduction that is honest. I'd rather have the article be accurate than go too fast and have a personal view that doesn't go along with the sources. Nathan43 ( talk) 00:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
That's more focused on AR. Is there a transcript or recording of the radio interview? How is it verifiable? Will Beback talk 21:21, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Now that I see the "Philosophy" and "Poetry and Aesthetic Realism" sections next to each other, I wonder if they aren't somewhat redundant. The philosophy section discusses poetry a little bit, and the poetry section discusses philosophy. Would it be possible to either merge them or reduce the overlap? Will Beback talk 22:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
It's manifestly not NPOV for this article to report and link to AR's responses to the "cult" allegation, while giving no substantive information about or links to what the critics actually say. (The version I'm looking at, that completely omits one side of this debate, is this one.) JamesMLane t c 22:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
This book calls AR a "secular Evangelical movement" and a "gnostic sect" and describes the philosophy as a "curious mix of psychology and literature". It says that "Its most publicized conversionary experience as the change of certain practicing homosexuals to a heterosexual lifestyle..." So far as I know, there are few books that discuss AR, so this may be a useful source even though it's a short reference. Will Beback talk 03:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Given the snail's pace at which "editing" is proceeding here, I've restored the purged sections of the lede. At Wikipedia, an article's lede is expected to be an adequate summary of the article's content, and this article's lede hasn't been that for several months. If any rewrites are eventually approved by achieving consensus, and the article content changes, the lede can be adjusted, but there is no justifiable reason to remove entire sections of the lede. The fact that certain editors don't like the article's current content is not a sufficient reason for removing a summary of that content. - Outerlimits ( talk) 18:33, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Gentlemen, once again you have shown yourselves to be against any honest work on this subject. Months of work has been done on this article with WillBebeck's guidance. You presume a good deal to just come in here and edit as you see fit, and I find it highly objectionable. Rethink what you are doing here. It is no one's interest to take this road. Keravnos ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:45, 11 May 2010 (UTC).
It was agreed previously to rework the article, section by section, and then write the lead from the article--not the other way around. There is no harm in a one sentence lead. Please focus on improving the rest of the article first. Jonathunder ( talk) 16:57, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Will, you said, "Come to think of it, I'm not sure there was ever a formal agreement." Are you *** kidding me that you're NOT SURE there was no formal agreement?! Even after the MULTIPLE, STRONG objections by myself and Outerlimits? Here are some of my earlier objections to this article not having a proper lead, dating back to 5 February:
And Will, when you say, "I think when the plan was adopted to revise the article first it was expected to move along more expeditiously," you can speak for yourself. *I* knew it would be the exact opposite, and I said so repeatedly:
I wish you'd listened to me. 3+ months without a proper lead now. The article still suffers, and the only winners are the AR people who wanted to censor the cult allegations from the lead. Sad state of affairs for WP. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 04:25, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Are you serious? To answer your question, no, absolutely not. That's because the Aesthetic Realists have made it plain as day that they intend to fight a proper intro (i.e., one that identifies the unflattering things that AR is most famous for). We could spend five years and it wouldn't make any difference, they're still gonna object. Just recently one of them called the inclusion of the cult allegations "filthy POV", and another one, lunging to censor the intro yet again, lied in the edit summary by saying that there was an agreement to not edit the intro (right after I included my laundry list of examples above about how there was *never* such an agreement). If you give them three months to write an intro, they'll just pretend that they're seeking consensus when in fact they'll just enjoy the next 3-month extension of the censorship that was handed to them on a silver platter (and then at the end, they'll still object to having a proper intro). You're acting as though the Aesthetic Realists are reasonable and are editing in good faith. Neither is true. A WP tenet is _assume_ good faith, but after editors demonstrate blatantly, consistently, and over a long period of time that they're *not* editing in good faith, there's no reason to keep pretending that they are. AR is best-known for its supposed gay cure and for being considered a cult, period, no gray area, no evidence to the contrary, full stop. There are a plethora of references to support this. That's why these things go in the intro, even if the Aesthetic Realists don't like it. They've gotten their way around here -- to the detriment of a good article -- for far too long. I see zero reason to keep trying to humor and mollify them. The unreasonable wishes of a biased group shouldn't trump having a proper article about the subject in question. Why are we letting unreasonable people hold up the editing of the article? Who does that serve (besides those unreasonable people)? MichaelBluejay ( talk) 10:47, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Using the phrase “proper intro” is a euphemism for the intro Michael Bluejay is promoting, not an intro that is true to the subject matter in the article. The Wikipedia article on Aesthetic Realism can’t be used to promote a self-published site. The reputations of real people are at stake here.
Regarding the change from homosexuality, if someone wants to say Aesthetic Realism gained national attention in the mid 1970s and 80s for the fact that men changed from homosexuality through studying it, fine. I object to the word “claim” because it is not a claim, there are real, breathing men who have changed and the change can easily be verified.
There is no war here between men who have changed and men who choose to live a gay lifestyle. Every person has the right to live his life the way he wants to. In the spirit of cultural inclusion, I ask that you also give the men who changed a right to live their lives in the way they choose to. They deserve your respect, whether you agree with their choice or not.
I am going to look at the intro Will Beback points to now. LoreMariano ( talk) 15:46, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy of aesthetics founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941.[4] Its primary teachings are:
- Beauty in art is the making one of opposites, such as order and freedom, logic and passion, strength and grace.
- Everyone's deepest desire is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis.
- The desire to have contempt—that is, to lessen the meaning of things in order to see one's self as superior—causes unhappiness and even insanity.
Students of Aesthetic Realism promoted it as a way for gays and lesbians to stop being homosexual (1971 to 1990), and still view it as the answer to poverty and racism. They use the Aesthetic Realism principles to analyze and teach a wide variety of topics, including classes in poetry, anthropology, art, music, and marriage. The philosophy is taught at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation in New York City.
Aesthetic Realism is controversial for its assertion that it can change gay people to straight[6], and for allegations that it operates as a mind-control cult.[7] Aesthetic Realists counter that their critics are attempting to denigrate a benevolent, scientific philosophy that is beneficial to humanity.[8]
A great deal of careful research and work has been done on this article, and the work is ongoing. I think it would be unwise to put up a temporary lead under pressure, so I am against it. Nathan43 ( talk) 12:47, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Aesthetic Realism is a philosophy created by Eli Siegel (1902–1978) in 1941. In 1973 Siegel's students founded the Aesthetic Realism Foundation to teach the philosophy. Aesthetic Realists believe that most of the world's problems could be solved by the study of Aesthetic Realism, which is based on these principles:
The Foundation is based in SoHo in New York City and teaches Aesthetic Realism through lectures, classes, and "consultations", in which three advanced students called "consultants" meet with another student.
Aesthetic Realism is controversial for its claim that it can change gay people to straight[6], and for allegations that it operates as a mind-control cult.[7]
Aesthetic Realism is a philosophy created by Eli Siegel (1902–1978) in 1941. Aesthetic Realists believe that root of humankind's problems--personal unhappiness, family conflicts, social strife, poverty, racism, and war--can be understood and resolved by the study of Aesthetic Realism, which is based on three core principles. First, according to Siegel, the deepest desire of every person is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis. Second, the greatest danger for a person is to have contempt for the world and what is in it--contempt defined as lessening what is different from oneself as a means to make the self seem more important. And third, all beauty is a making one of opposites, and the making one of opposites is what people are truly seeking. [8]
These teachings are promoted by the Aesthetic Realism Foundation, a non-profit organization based in SoHo, New York City through a variety of lectures, classes, art events, and "consultations", in which individual students meet with three teachers called "consultants".
Throughout the history of the organization, Aesthetic Realists have criticized the lack of recognition of their philosophy in mainstream press.[9][10][11][12][13][14] Although Aesthetic Realism was well received within artistic, aesthetic, anthropological, and pedagogical circles, it never received widespread attention or endorsement by the media, psychologists, or academic philosophers. Aesthetic Realism has been controversial for the claim that it could change gay people's sexual orientation by teaching them to perceive and like the world "as it is". [15] The organization has also been accused by some ex-students and researchers for operating as a cult.[16][17][18][19][20] [21][22] Aesthetic Realists have responded that the homosexuality issue is a part of their past not central to the philosophy, and that the accusations of being a cult are based on lies.
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941. In The Right of Aesthetic Realism to Be Known, #247 (December 21, 1977), he presented Aesthetic Realism as a three-part study this way:
Students of Aesthetic Realism promoted it as a way for gays and lesbians to stop being homosexual (1971 to 1990), and still view it as the answer to poverty and racism. They use the Aesthetic Realism principles to analyze and teach a wide variety of topics, including classes in poetry, anthropology, art, music, and marriage. The philosophy is taught at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation in New York City.
Critics allege that, while a number of Siegel's ideas have merit, the Aesthetic Realists comprise a cult. [2] Aesthetic Realism proponents say that their critics are attempting to smear a benevolent, scientific philosophy that is beneficial to humanity.
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy of aesthetics founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941.[4] Its primary teachings are:
Students of Aesthetic Realism promoted it as a way for gays and lesbians to stop being homosexual (1971 to 1990), and still view it as the answer to poverty and racism. They use the Aesthetic Realism principles to analyze and teach a wide variety of topics, including classes in poetry, anthropology, art, music, and marriage. The philosophy is taught at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation in New York City.
Critics allege that, while a number of Siegel's ideas have merit, the Aesthetic Realists comprise a cult. [5] Aesthetic Realism proponents say that their critics are attempting to smear a benevolent, scientific philosophy that is beneficial to humanity.
(Just to show how unreasonable and unencyclopedic the AR people are.)
The truth of the principles of Aesthetic Realism has held up through multitudinous testing for 60 years. Their scientific value and personal value to the lives of individuals has been affirmed in hundreds of first hand accounts in seminars and essays. [20] The single criticism has been social: a number of individuals, particularly since 1990, have alleged that students of Aesthetic Realism are not educators and students but they are really followers of a cult. These individuals have initiated two newspaper articles to that effect [21] But the scientific and aesthetic ideas of Aesthetic Realism are too firmly established for any claims of fraudulence or self-deception to hold up. Indeed, say proponents of Aesthetic Realism, these so-called “critics” are lying for purposes of their own, and the articles they initiated are nothing but deliberate disinformation. About 70 artists, musicians, social scientists, business people, medical specialists, and so on, have posted detailed refutations of these lies on the website Friends of Aesthetic Realism--Countering the Lies.
This is the lede I propose. I hope it's acceptable to everyone.
Aesthetic Realism is a philosophy founded by Eli Siegel (1902–1978) in 1941. It is based on three core principles. First, according to Siegel, the deepest desire of every person is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis. Second, the greatest danger for a person is to have contempt for the world and what is in it—contempt defined as the false importance or glory from the lessening of things not oneself. And third, it is the study of how what makes for beauty in art is a guide for a good life: “All beauty is a making one of opposites, and the making one of opposites is what we are going after in ourselves.” [61]
These teachings are promoted by the Aesthetic Realism Foundation, a non-profit foundation based in SoHo, New York City, through a variety of lectures, classes in poetry, anthropology, art, and music, art events, and individual consultations.
Over the decades, Aesthetic Realists have criticized the lack of recognition of their philosophy in mainstream press. [62] [63] [64] [65]Although Aesthetic Realism has been well received within artistic, aesthetic, anthropological, and pedagogical circles, it has not received widespread attention by the media, psychologists, or academic philosophers.
Between 1970 and 1990, the Aesthetic Realism Foundation was controversial for its assertion that through the study of this philosophy, men changed from homosexuality. [66] Not wishing to be a source of anger on the subject (it always was fully in favor of equal rights for all, regardless of sexual orientation), in 1990 the Foundation stopped giving consultations to change from homosexuality and discontinued its presentation of the change, which was never central to the philosophy itself. Some men who had Aesthetic Realism consultations later said they did not change, and chose to live a gay lifestyle; others said that their change has been complete and lasting.
Some former students have expressed anger at Aesthetic Realism and called it a cult, [67]while other former students have objected to such a characterization, saying it is nothing of the kind, and have praised it for its enduring good effect on their lives. [68] LoreMariano ( talk) 02:48, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Okay! We have a new proposed lead from the AR side! Sure, it's far from encyclopaedic, but I'm willing to try to work with it in good faith. So here we go... The first three paragraphs are okay with me, so I'll start with the first sentence of the fourth paragraph: Between 1970 and 1990, the Aesthetic Realism Foundation was controversial for its assertion that through the study of this philosophy, men changed from homosexuality. First of all, Aesthetic Realism is *still* controversial for its past promotion of its gay-change program. That's (for example) why the New York Blade titled their article "Anti-Gay Cult Pulls a Fast One" just a couple of years ago. On the other end of the timeline, we don't know exactly when AR became *controversial* for its program, only when the program started. I'm pretty sure AR's book _The H Persuasion_ says something like, "Since 1965, there has been more or less a continuous effort to have the change from homosexuality documented in the press." (I don't have my copy handy at the moment.) Also, Aesthetic Realists *still* believe that homosexuality is amenable to change through the study of AR, even if AR no longer offers a program of change, which helps extend the controversy to the present. Finally, it's not just men who supposedly changed, it was also women. So my suggested replacement for the first sentence is:
Slight change of topic: Previously there was a lot of discussion about how to word and source the definition of Aesthetic Realism. One of the journal articles listed on the sources page has a definition, and claims SIegel as the source, but I'm not sure that particular definition has been discussed here. I'm mentioning this journal article because some Wikipedians really like them as sources, since they're ostensibly more credible, so I should point out that the article isn't truly independent/third party since it's written by an Aesthetic Realism teacher. Personally I don't think that's a problem, but I'm just offering full disclosure, in case anyone thinks this is kind of a sourcing sleight-of-hand. Anyway, here's the definition from the journal article:
In 1977 [Siegel] gave a compact, tripartite description of his philosophy:
One, Man's greatest, deepest desire is to like the world honestly. Two, The one way to like the world honestly, not as a conquest of one's own, is to see the world as the aesthetic oneness of opposites. Three, The greatest danger or temptation of man is to get a false importance or glory from the lessening of things not himself; which lessening is contempt. British Journal of Aesthetics
Siegel variously explained Aesthetic Realism in similar (but not exact) different ways over the years. Clearly he felt the concepts were more important than the actual wording and that there was more than one way to describe them. Though some of these off-the-cuff definitions are probably better than others, and I'm not sure this particular one is best, especially as its explanation of contempt isn't necessarily clear, and doesn't show the importance to which Aesthetic Realism places on it. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 07:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
LoreMariano ( talk) 14:14, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
I object to referring to the change as a discussion of "beliefs" and therefore I do not agree to this change. I can live with the part of the sentence which starts "Due to the negative response to their positions on this subject..." if you add: "Due to the negative response by gay advocacy groups on this subject...." LoreMariano ( talk) 21:26, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
First, I apologize for introducing a different topic in this thread earlier. My bad, won't happen again. Second, I would have responded earlier to this thread, but I only just now noticed the discussion had been continuing. I'm kind of alarmed at the one-day deadline for objections proposed. So now to the discussion: I object to our saying that AR stopped its gay-change program because of anger (or whatever) about it, because that's only part of the story. They also stopped it because when so many of their success stories fell off the wagon and decided they were really gay after all, the foundation had a hard time continuing to promote their program with a straight face...especially when they had taken the opportunity to proclaim the change as "permanent" at every opportunity. If the media came calling and asked, "So these specific people [e.g. from the books and TV interviews] who said they changed permanently, they still consider themselves changed, and credit Siegel with that change? Can we talk to them?", the answer would of course be uncomfortable. Now, I can't *prove* that this is one of the reasons that AR stopped its program, but the point is, neither can ARF prove that it stopped only because of "anger from the gay rights lobby". As a result, *neither* should be presented as fact. Instead, they have to be presented as claims. For example, "In 1990 the foundation stopped offering its program of change, saying that the issue was divisive and it didn't want to be involved in the controversy. Critics allege that another reason the foundation stopped its program was that it was embarrassed that many of those who said they changed later reverted to a gay lifestyle."
Next, I object to our saying that "some former members" claim that AR is a cult. New York Magazine, Commentary Magazine, Harper's, the New York Times, and noted cult expert Steve Hassan are not former members of AR. I suggest, "The foundation has been called a cult by former members and the media, though the foundation denies that allegation, saying that its critics are 'liars'." MichaelBluejay ( talk) 03:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
WillBeback, I think you're really going overboard about "self-published" sources. AR's Countering the Lies website is absolutely a valid source for the kind of thing we're referencing.
So, I think you're really over-applying the policy outside the bounds of what the policy actually says, and certainly outside the intent of the policy. So unless the policy is clarified to the contrary, I'm going to push back pretty hard on the idea that we can't cite a website as evidence of *claims*.
Finally, Trouver's suggestion is almost acceptable. The phrase "presenting this change" is a bit ambiguous and then there's the problem that it talks about the change as though it were fact. Less ambiguous and less POV would be, "The Aesthetic Realism Foundation has faced controversy for its assertion that studying the philosophy could make gays become straight, and in 1990 it stopped offering counseling for gays seeking to become heterosexual." MichaelBluejay ( talk) 14:22, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
OK, so here is what we have:
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy founded by Eli Siegel (1902–1978) in 1941. It is based on three core principles. First, according to Siegel, the deepest desire of every person is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis. Second, the greatest danger for a person is to have contempt for the world and what is in it—contempt defined as the false importance or glory from the lessening of things not oneself. And third, it is the study of how what makes for beauty in art is a guide for a good life: "All beauty is a making one of opposites, and the making one of opposites is what we are going after in ourselves."[1]
The philosophy is principally taught at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation, a non-profit educational foundation based in SoHo, New York City, through a variety of lectures, classes in poetry, anthropology, art, music, and individual consultations.
The Foundation faced controversy for its assertion that men changed from homosexuality through study of this philosophy, and in 1990 it formally stopped presenting this change. Some former students have said that Aesthetic Realism is a cult,[2] but other former (and current) students say it is nothing of the kind.[3]
- Jonathunder ( talk) 19:02, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. The article has been without a lead for too long already. I don't know why you think that working on the article would make the lead easier to resolve in the future. Do you think that once the article is done, people like Cyberpathfinder *won't* continue to protest, based on their lack of understanding of how an encyclopedia works? There will always be conflict. Putting it on the shelf doesn't solve anything, it just postpones the conflict. Let's work towards a resolution now. Let me repeat the suggestion I made earlier:
Not that Cyberpathfinder's comments merit a reply, but: (1) It doesn't matter that ARF never described consultations as "counseling". Stormfront never described itself as a racist organization, either. Groups don't get to choose how they're reported on. (2) Ditto for Aesthetic Realists not referring to themselves as Aesthetic Realists in recent times. You're welcome to suggest an alternative. (3) Enough people and media have called Aesthetic Realism a cult that we report that allegation. WP doesn't pass judgement on the claim, it just reports the claim, because the claim has been made, in enough quarters, including in the media. When New York Magazine calls Aesthetic Realism "a cult of messianic nothingness", when Harper's calls Aesthetic Realists "the Moonies of poetry", and when probably the most recognized expert on mind-control cults says that Aesthetic Realism is one, it would be *irresponsible* for an encyclopedia not to report that claim. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 18:41, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Per request, I've set up Talk:Aesthetic Realism/drafts3 as a page to discuss a new draft of the history section. Will Beback talk 22:13, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I would like to make the following changes if there are no objections:
1. Post the rewrite of "Aesthetic Realism and the opposition to prejudice and racism" which has been ready since April 17 Talk:Aesthetic Realism/drafts2.
2. Cut the section titled "Aesthetic Realism scholarship" as the references contained in that section have been moved into "Aesthetic Realism and the arts" as footnoted references.
3. As was suggested by Trouver 4 weeks ago, edit the title of the final section to "Criticism and response". Talk:Aesthetic Realism/drafts3
4. Replace the POV template at the top of the article page with the controversial template.
5. In order to more accurately describe the profession, change "researchers" to "cult researchers" in the last section.
LoreMariano ( talk) 01:17, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
I will make these changes this weekend. LoreMariano ( talk) 15:25, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
This note is directed to Ocaasi: I welcome your suggested contributions as I'm sure others do, but given the history of the entry, we cannot make any changes without consensus.
That said, here are my comments regarding your edits:
I have no objection to this change.
The original heading is more appropriate in my opinion. The section is not about the importance of poetry per se, it is about poetry and Aesthetic Realism as a subject in itself. Aesthetic Realism arose from a poetic way of seeing. There may be a better heading than Poetry and Aesthetic Realism but I don't think the suggested change is an improvement.
Removing the article (“the”) and the words "Aesthetic Realism" generalizes it in a bad way. It’s not about opposition to prejudice and racism generally, it is about how Aesthetic Realism opposes prejudice and racism. I don’t think this suggested change is an improvement.
I have no objection to this change. I don’t know what the “also” was in reference to. LoreMariano ( talk) 14:53, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
I like your suggestion of "Poetry" as a (plain noun) heading and I see your point about the assumption that headings are in context to the entry itself. Changing the others in question, the headings would now read:
Do you think "Prejudice and racism" should be changed to simply "Racism"? LoreMariano ( talk) 03:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Before we go into more discussion about edits to the headings, are you suggesting that we look at all headings with the words "Aesthetic Realism" in the title which would be these five: 2, 3.2, 3.3, 3.4, and 4?
LoreMariano ( talk) 21:35, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
Ocaasi, thanks for editing. We need more impartial editors for this article. However, please don't intersperse your Talk between others' Talk. It makes it difficult to see the chronology of the discussion, and for that reason we all agreed that we wouldn't do that here. But again, thank you for coming by, and I hope you continue to improve the article, especially as I don't have much time to work on it any more myself. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 11:18, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the concern about the sections on homosexuality and racism, how about: 'Ending Racism' for the section on racism? For the section on homosexuality, I suggest "Approach to Homosexuality". I think it is neutral and clear. LoreMariano ( talk) 14:37, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Re: "There are many approaches to homosexuality, but the section is about AR's approach." Yes...perhaps the title should be even more specific to distinguish it from other approaches, for example: "Approach to Homosexuality as a Philosophic Matter." I don't like the idea of making it that long and I think it's clear from the content that the approach is philosophic.
Re: "Do you think 'opposition to homosexuality' is inaccurate or too narrow?" Yes! Narrow and misleading. Aesthetic Realism is for homosexual persons enjoying full, equal civil rights and that title sounds like it's opposed. LoreMariano ( talk) 03:54, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
OL, can you provide me a link, ideally to the AR foundation's website where they maintain that people 'changing' from homosexuality to heterosexuality is still promoted, sought, or accomplished today? Ocaasi c 03:34, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
add to this list if you have an option, preferably a short, detailed, neutral option
Regarding the post of Outerlimits: This editor has a right to his opinions, but the phrase "final solution to the homosexual question" with its clear reference to Nazi atrocities is grossly insulting, and has no place on these pages. I changed from homosexuality through Aesthetic Realism and I know that it has always been for justice and full civil rights for all people, including homosexuals. If, for example, men and women have the right to change their sex (and they should have that right), shouldn't there also be the right to change one's sexual preference, if that is what a person wants?
As to the suggestions of Ocassi, I think “homosexuality conversion” comes across as making things too narrow. I think “approach to homosexuality” is neutral and clear. CSaguaro ( talk) 02:47, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Not acceptable:
Here are my comments on the first list of titles:
According to our article on conversion therapy, "The American Psychological Association defines conversion therapy as therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation." It strikes me that conversion philosophy would be philosophy aimed at changing sexual orientation. Homosexuality and claims of changing sexual orientation or Homosexuality and changing sexual orientation might also work. If we can't solve this soon, we should draft the section first, and just use a neutral title in the meantime (Approach to Homosexuality is neutral, although too general IMO). Ocaasi c 22:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Ocaasi, look at the last sentence in the section on homosexuality. Presentations and consultations on the subject of homosexuality were discontinued in 1990.
Re: section on racism -- although there is a lot of current work done on ending racism, there is no official mission or campaign to end racism by the Aesthetic Realism Foundation that I am aware of. The purpose of the Aesthetic Realism Foundation is described in the info box in the article: "Aesthetic Realism, founded in 1941 by poet and critic Eli Siegel (1902-78), is a philosophy dedicated to the understanding of, and greater respect for, people, art, and reality."
The section on the arts and ARF both contain a lot of historical content so my opinion is that they're good where they are.
I don't see how "Homosexuality and changing sexual orientation" is an endorsement, it's a subject. However, for simplicity's sake, I suggest we change it back to 'homosexuality' and change the racism section back to 'opposition to prejudice and racism'. LoreMariano ( talk) 23:28, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
"I'm not so sure most journalists, doctors and psychologists would call Aesthetic Realism consultations therapy." We've been over this before. There are lots of references on the Sources page showing that they call it that very thing.
I still stand by my rec's for the H section, with my top pick being "Homosexuality conversion therapy", which is short, descriptive, accurate, and neutral. "Approach to homosexuality" is insufficient because it doesn't describe the attempts to change gays.
"I think Opposition to prejudice and racism is good." I'm afraid I have to object, because AR's goal in trumpeting its supposed answer to racism isn't to end racism so much as it is to promote AR itself. This is just like what they did with the gay issue, though at least this time they picked a more palatable target. I know I can't prove this and so I'm not suggesting that we write the article from that perspective, but neither do we write it in AR's favor either, as though their efforts were completely pure. I would suggest "Answer to racism" with that phrase in quotes, showing that we're quoting the way they describe it themselves (it's the title of their book), so that WP isn't taking a stand one way or the other on whether their efforts really genuine or not.
I think Ocaasi has a good handle on the issues surrounding the wording of the headings. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 08:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Ocaasi, mentioning my feelings on AR's motivations was necessary in order to explain why I objected to the proposed heading. As for the gay change section header, I agree with OL, "H Persuasion" is too obtuse, and the section is about their gay change program, not the book. About the book, the full title is: "The H Persuasion: How Persons Have Permanently Changed from Homosexuality Through the Study of Aesthetic Realism With Eli Siegel". I'd agree to a section heading of "Change" from homosexuality. The quotes serve double-duty: We're quoting AR's actual word, while distancing ourselves from asserting that it really happened. MichaelBluejay ( talk)
Perhaps I don't know how you feel about AR, but I know what you've written about AR. There's a great deal of information which makes clear your position on what they do and why. I don't think it particularly helps us to bring up that point of view on this page, since we're going to rely on sources in the end anyway. What I meant by personal was not so much about your position but rather your comments on others editors' motivations. If it appears someone suggested something which is not a good heading, for example, I prefer to just say why that's not a good heading, or that it might obscure topic x, rather than suggest that they are trying to obscure topic x. This is often just semantics, but this is a Wiki, and words are all we have. I'm trying to keep the editing content-centric and efficient, in the interest of getting good results and avoiding the battleground between group supporters and critics.
Thanks for finding some consensus on titles. If we just pare down the list that people are okay with, maybe the intersection will be a viable one (rather than an empty set). I'm curious why you don't care for #3 and #4. Although the main title is general, the bolded sub-sections would be very specific. Here's the ever expanding but converging list:
There are objections to using: "conversion", "change" if not in quotes, "therapy", and "emphasis". "Assertion" is preferred to "claim". My vote is still for Homosexuality, "change" and controversy but I'm okay with any here. All we need is ONE that all can work with. If this was a clever game (and I was in control of it), I'd say everyone should pick numbers they're ok with, and if there wasn't a group match I'd just write it myself. Or everyone should unbold the ones they don't like and we'll see what's left. Or... we can ask Will Beback to pick? Maybe everyone could just write out the one's they're ok below with and we'll see if there's an overlap. Ocaasi c 05:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm not opposed to that, but I have a feeling AR friends will be. Fairly so, if it suggests that controversy was inherent to the approach rather than something that followed it. (I've made similar objections to calling astrology 'a pseudoscientific practice' rather than 'a practice, which is pseudoscientific'). OL, if you're okay with 'assertions' then we should scrub them from the list to pare down further. Ocaasi c 06:12, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm inclined to try and pick from these and call it a day. Or we can go back to Homosexuality and Aesthetic Realism (the original freakin title)
The above 4 are neutral and comprehensive. I think the role of AR is sufficiently implied or stated. This section is not just about the claims or the controversy or the philosophy. It's really all 3, starting with how AR views homosexuality as an outgrowth of contempt, then the series of testimonies and advocacy, then the controversy/backlash leading to VOTP and eventual (public) retraction. Although it's very important to those who look negatively at this period in AR's history that the "claim it cured gays" is emphasized, I don't think this is the overarching title. It's may be the key point--the thesis, so to speak--but it's not the title or general subject.
MBJ, The reason I asked about women is because homosexual and gay can have different gender connotations and they've also changed over time. I think your website does not meet WP:SPS requirements, so I would prefer any links to articles or images be posted on the sources subpages here, just so I know which ones are actually going to be usable in this article. Are any of the images you mention public domain or with a copyright status we could upload here? Would they meet RS? (Or a fair use exemption, is also an option, but that's getting ahead of ourselves). Ocaasi c 12:09, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Not sure if' back-channel' was suggesting an attempt to short-cut this discussion, but I was pretty clear that we should make the uncontroversial changes and check back here about homosexuality and racism. Comprehensive and short are in tension but I find that it is possible to achieve both, just not with consensus. My personal preference is none of the suggestions that have been discussed. I would do:
==Homosexuality==
===Philosophic approach===
===Claims gays changed sexual orientation===
===Controversy===
...and I'm pretty sure one way or another that offends everyone. Anyway, let's make the uncontroversial changes to the headers (everything except homosexuality/racism) and then throw around the titles if need be.
Ocaasi
c
04:30, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
In keeping with our purpose stated above by Outerlimits "to find an acceptable consensus," I'm okay with this title suggested by Michaelbluejay: Assertions that sexual orientation can be changed. I would prefer Assertion that sexual orientation changed since the Aesthetic Realism Foundation no longer gives consultations on this subject, but I can live with it as stated by Michaelbluejay and (I think) approved by Outerlimits ("much...preferred over the others, because [it] accurately focus[es] on the crux of the matter." LoreMariano ( talk) 19:38, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Ocaasi, Yes, let's go forward with the simple changes--
Thinking about the difference between Assertions that sexual orientation can be changed and Assertion that sexual orientation changed, I think the main difference is that the first implies it's possible ("can be" changed) but it leaves a question in the reader's mind as to whether it ever did. The second seems to imply that it is possible because it has occurred, "sexual orientation changed" and therefore it is possible that "it can change." At any rate, the second title is stating that it is an assertion, it's not stated as a fact, so I think it's NPOV and it does reflect the content of the section. LoreMariano ( talk) 20:53, 26 April 2011 (UTC)