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This page could stand a great deal more wikification. There are many terms used here which have adequate free-standing articles and should be properly cross-referneced. 18.24.0.120 05:19, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
These should probably be added. If anyone has knowledge on the subject, please share. Otherwise, I will investigate. (I am a bit embarrassed that as a Brooklynite, I am unfamiliar with the purpose and function of these.)[[User:Nricardo|-- Nelson Ricardo >>Talk<<]] 21:41, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)
Even though the article for the state itself is at New York, not New York State (which is a re-direct,) why do several articles relating to it say "New York State" in them?? 66.245.82.61 00:52, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The phrasing "The definitions of the political subdivisions of New York State differ from those in most other states" seems a little strong to me. To be honest, I see very little in this article that is dramatically different from most other states. older≠ wiser 03:01, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
I think a recent addition makes for contradictory phrasing: The term "hamlet" actually has no meaning under New York law, and is often used in the state's statutes merely to refer to well-known developed areas that are not separately incorporated as villages. If the term is used in state statutes, then how can it be without meaning under New York law. I suspect that what is meant is simply that "hamlets" are not defined as a type of municipality. older≠ wiser 12:29, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
Using the "What links here" link, I see that there are dozens of links on Wikipedia to Political subdivisions of New York State, which is a redirect to this page, and only one or two directly to this page. I suggest it would make more sense to rename this page than to redo the dozens of links. Unless anyone objects, I'll make this change in a day or two. RussBlau 15:21, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For source on the City of Sherrill not being independent of the town government, see the city charter, which is linked to from the Sherrill, New York article. RussBlau 19:15, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
The article identifies the various types of school districts by name only and does not specify why there are various types of school districts or how they differ. That part of the article is not very helpful, especially to people who live in different states, where school organization can be radically different. Clarification is respectfully requested. Doctor Whom 02:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Those were both wrong. I have corrected them (although the former does have a qualifier, duly noted). Daniel Case 05:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I recently changed a section heading from "...particular to New York..." to "...peculiar to New York...". The change was reverted, with a comment that the original "makes more sense". That's subjective, so I've re-applied the edit. If you are considering reverting again, I would ask that you first consult a dictionary: (for example, http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=particular and http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=peculiar). If the change is reverted again, I won't reapply it, since I'm not looking for trouble ;-) uFu 01:01, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
For lack of a better place to put it: /Disambiguated divisions -- SPUI ( T - C) 00:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
And a proposal: Wikipedia:Political subdivisions of New York -- SPUI ( T - C) 01:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The proposed bill recently cited in the Hamlet section will likely not pass on two counts: 1) it is poorly written and uses unofficial terms such as "unincorporated village" (if it's a village, it's incorporated) and 2) hamlets do not have defined borders, so it would be impossible to develop statistics for them. -- Nelson Ricardo 06:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Not to be elitist or anything (yes, I am), but perhaps the terminology issues relate to the bill's sponsor not being a college graduate. -- Nelson Ricardo 07:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I do not understand why this page should not be in the Geography of New York category. There are two basic types of geography: natural and political. This article definitely falls under political geography. -- Nelson Ricardo 17:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
This article says "Each of the five boroughs of New York City is coextensive with one of its five counties." This is generally thought to be true, and it is, but with an exception that makes it not be true: Theres a small piece of what is geographically in the Bronx, Marble Hill, which is actually part of New York County, and used to be part of Manhattan. When the Harlem River was re-routed in the early 20th century, this piece of land (less than a square mile) was attached to the Bronx by filling in a canal, but is still part of its old borough. Capek 21:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Marble Hill does not belong to the borough of the Bronx, it is in both the county of New York and the borough of Manhattan. Police precincts in the city of New York do not have to conform to county or borough lines that is why there is overlap. Marble Hill became "attached" to the mainland next to the Bronx due to manmade intervention by moving the river. Read the article Marble Hill, Manhattan for more info on how it came to be. Camelbinky ( talk) 05:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Can someone please clarify something for me? The article says that cities are mostly autonomous. Does that mean that they are not under the jurisdiction of the county? What I mean is, is a city in New York like an independent city in Virginia, or does the county still have some involvement in operations (like sheriffs and courts)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jzcrandall ( talk • contribs) 06:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know of any instance in which an incorporated village actually does straddle a county line? I know some like Ballston Spa and Nassau straddle town lines but I've never heard of a village straddling a county line. Also are there any cities other than New York that straddle more than one county or take up an entire county? Camelbinky ( talk) 04:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
http://www.dos.state.ny.us/lgss/pdfs/Handbook.pdf has been updated. I'll try to see whether there is any new material of interest. It may take me a while to turn my attention to this, so if anyone else has an interest, go for it! -- Nricardo ( talk) 12:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
A few sentences from the "County" section don't add up:
If my math is right, that only accounts for 52 counties. How are the other ten governed? -- Jfruh ( talk) 21:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Your math is correct, sir/madam. These remaining counties are technically governed by ME, actually. I am officially the "Head N_____ In Charge" as well as the County Executive of the ten remaining counties. Each one contains several towns, villages, cities, a few hamlets, and several omelets -- the number varies based on the way I'm feeling at any particular moment. If and when anyone causes any problems/breaks any rules (which are determined by me), the penalty is a major beat-down. Also, marijuana is legal. And peyote. The charters for these counties are written on the back of a Chinese take-out menu that hangs on my fridge. I am getting in framed one of these days. If anyone would like, I will scan it and post it. Any questions, please contact me. 50.75.20.196 ( talk) 17:27, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
This subsection (Similarity to New England towns) seems as though it doesn't quite fit in with this article. Even so, the information therein could be folded into the Towns section in some way if it were relevant, I would think... -- JBC3 ( talk) 23:25, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The article mentions several times that towns are similar to civil townships in other states but after having read that article I see no similarity in political structure as towns in NY are incorporated municipalities with many more functions than townships in other states, a better analogy would be to compare NY towns with Michigan's charter townships if towns are going to compared to any other state's townships. I will be changing the article to reflect this. Camelbinky ( talk) 14:40, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Three cities in NY have inner and outer districts, Saratoga Springs, Rome, and Oneida. The outer districts have lesser services and are taxed at a lesser rate accordingly. http://www.nyslocalgov.org/pdf/City-Town_Consolidation.pdf page 3 section heading- Dual Property Tax Zones This is often attributed to those three cities being "consolidated city/town governments" (though I cant find citation of it on the web right now, so am going to check actual books next). Camelbinky ( talk) 01:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC) That website by the way is an official NY state government site and report so is reliable. the home page is www.nyslocalgov.org and is the site for the New York State Commission on Local Government Efficiency and Competitiveness and has lots of info on the current wave of consolidation talk coming from AG Andrew Cuomo and Gov. David Paterso. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Camelbinky ( talk • contribs)
Ok, Ill check those three cities to make sure they have that info. I just thought it might fit in this article since those are the ONLY three cities in the state to have separate districts for their property taxes, they arent special taxing districts. Also, if my info is correct, they are city-town consolidated governments, the only three in the state, if I can find citation for that fact I do believe that part should be mentioned, since village-town consolidated govts ARE mentioned (Green Island and at least two others). Camelbinky ( talk) 14:34, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree with your assement that the 3 cities having separate tax districts probably doesnt fit in. I dont want you to think I'm arguing with you or being stubborn about wanting it in, I was just curious as to other people's feelings on the info, if I had been certain that it warranted being in the article I wouldve put it in first. I really dont want to alienate someone I have enjoyed working with. I'll definitely keep looking for sources on the town-city consolidation, I know I read it in one of my text books as an undergrad but I cant seem to find either the original book nor any current undergrad book with the same info (I probably returned the book for money, I was a poor freshman and needed beer probably!). If I were to email an old professor and could I cite his/her statement or would I have to ask for the professor to give me a proper published citation to that statement of his/hers? Would it be a COI for the professor to give me a citation of a book he/she published? I just want to cover all bases now instead of getting in trouble with any "citation police" down the line. You know me, wiki-rules to the letter. :-) Camelbinky ( talk) 03:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I'll ask wadester or an admin, I have a serious problem with Hippo being "knowledgeable" about wikipolicy, I is a strict constructionist and sees only black and white and that is not how wikipedia is supposed to be run, there's a reason all wikipolicy pages say at the top that they are not hard-fast rules and commonsense should be used in applying or disregarding, there are always exceptions to the rule. That's a discussion that doesnt belong here though. I know e-mails from people in authority have been used before (emails from people at DOT have been used for road articles). I'm a big believer in "common law" wikipedia rules, if something is commonly accepted in the community and it isnt following the strict letter of policy then it is still ok. I might not be in the right on that, but that's my opinion. I wasnt even thinking of hippo when I said citation police but strange that you would assume that! I think it says something about hippo when people automatically associate him with that term. No single person, esp a non-admin, should take it upon themselves to pass judgement on other editors contributions, concensus should always be reached first, it alienates and discourages established editors and can be considered "biting" newbies and scare them away as well. Camelbinky ( talk) 16:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
New York Law 1886 1:748f is the law that divided the state into towns. 148.78.249.33 ( talk) 03:05, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I decided to be bold and switch sections around to improve the article. Figured I ought to explain why I did it though.
(1) Because Census-designated places and hamlets are not administrative divisions but are still important to discussion about New York State divisions and placenames, I felt it appropriate to keep them and move them into the Town section as subsections. Towns exercise the local administrative powers within CDPs and hamlets.
(2) Counties are the major division of New York, towns are the major divisions of counties. It makes sense to put towns right after counties. Villages are formed from and are part of towns, so it makes sense for them to come next. Cities are the exception in New York government, so it made sense for them to come after the others.
--
JBC3 (
talk) 00:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
From the article-Whether a municipality is a city, town or village is not dependent on population or area, but on the form of government selected by the residents and approved by the state legislature. New York considers counties, cities, towns and villages to be "municipal corporations" and "general purpose" units of local government.
Ok, not to be patronizing, but no your view on the history of towns is wrong. Please do some searching on New York Municipal Code, come up with reliable verifiable sources and come back to this discussion. You are mistaken as to the historical functions of towns, what you are describing are townships as they are defined in other states and you may have read other sources that got the distinction between NY towns and other state's townships mistaken. Most cities in New York were created straight from whole towns or villages, not from sections of towns so they could get more administrative powers, such as the city of Watervliet being formed from the village of West Troy which was coterminous with the town of Watervliet. Plus this article is about the administrative divisions of New York as they are today, it is not an article on the History of administrative divisions of New York, which I would love to work with you on if you want to start that article as there would be a place for "districts" which New York used to have before the 1788 law that divided the entire state into towns and therefore no longer exist as a municipality and therefore have no place in this article. Cities are not created through a separate process from towns or villages, all are regulated and created (or destroyed) by the same "New York Home Rule Municipal Law", the New York state assembly website is a good place to start for current and former laws in the state of New York. As far as I'm concerned I'm not having this discussion with you until you can cite legislation to back up your claims, until then I wont respond. As far as I'm concerned the final decision is JBC3's as to the organizing and wording of this article, you may bring it up with him if you want something changed. 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 02:25, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I don't feel like I own this page or have final say so over anything. I'm trying to build concensus on the order of sections so as to best present the article to readers, which is what this section of the talk page is supposed to be about. --
JBC3 (
talk) 02:44, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Discussion on section order got off topic and unneccessarily heated and was therefor unproductive.
Main arguments: JBC3 felt the order of sections should be county, town, village, city; he made the change and posted his reasons for doing so. Upon receiving suggestions for alternative orders, an off-topic discussion ensued regarding the differences between municipalities and the differences in personal understandings of what said municipalities are/were. This was done largely without discussing the ideal section order and without contributing significantly to the article. -- JBC3 ( talk) 07:26, 10 April 2009 (UTC) |
For what it's worth, I like the current section order (county, town, village, city, NYC), which is also used in the book by Moyer (Chap. 7) that I added in the Further reading section. This has the benefit of being hierarchial for areas outside cities, with cities being an exception to the general hierarchy and NYC being an exception to cities. -- Polaron | Talk 15:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I dont care if the above discussion is "closed" about the order of the article, I've always said it was JBC3's call. But as to the new discussion about town vs. city and which is older, Polaron, you are plain wrong about towns in New Netherland. There is a New Netherland project we can get someone from there to give us history on it. The towns on Long Island you refer to are what were established by New England settlers back when New England colonies, especially CT claimed LI against the Dutch. As for the state of New York, check NY law, it was in 1788 that the entire state was divided into towns, towns did not exist prior to the original 12 counties, only districts and boroughs and cities and villages, there may have been exceptions of there being TOWNSHIPS in NE influenced areas on Long Island I will concede that, but those arent towns as NY established them in 1788. There is plenty of places to find this information on the internet, look it up. Its not that counties grew stronger in NY and counties grew weaker in NE, you dont know history obviously, research the history of Albany, or any other of the 12 original counties, research the history of counties in NE they were ALWAYS weak because yes in NE counties were later and towns were first, but NOT in NY. Patroonships were first before any city, town, village or anything, we dont list them in this article because they dont exist anymore, the Rensselaerswyck patroonship used to even have its own representative to the NY legislature and its own "county" court system even though it was included within the borders of Albany County (and prior to any towns whatsever existing) and Albany County had a duplicate sheriff/county court system. You dont have to believe me, fine, I'm not going to continue to argue with you, you have shown you are pulling NY history out your butt. I'm done discussing this with you, respond if you must I'm not watching this page anymore. Go ahead and continue to make wikipedia the laughingstock of encyclopedia's and reinforce why no one thinks of this as a reliable website; all because of people not deferring to those who know better. 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 20:39, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
That is not quite the whole story but in the interest of making this discussion less "arrogant" and more informative I apologize as you are technically correct that towns do not cross county borders, but you are incorrect in implying that they somehow function as administrative districts OF counties instead of as incorporated municipal corporations of their own right with home rule status and the ability to pass and regulate laws of their own, that is what I am so upset about, I apologize for coming off as arrogant, I simply disagreed with your implication that somehow towns are just subdivisions of counties.
Part of the misunderstanding going on is the definition of town, Polaron and Bkonrad dont see the difference between the "towns" that are mentioned in things like the ones mentioned in the establishment of the original 12 counties and the towns created in 1788. The ones in 1788 are the ones that are the predecessors to our towns and had very much the same functions. 1788 was the total overhaul of municipal government. The towns, districts, boroughs, etc that were before it were scrapped and every scrap of territory in NY was divided into towns whereas previously it was a mismatch and there were gaps of territory in counties that werent a part of any lower government territory. As for NE counties never were much more than they are now, they havent lost any power, they just never had any real power to begin with so the dissolution of some (though not really because the county still exists but not the government, state level courts at the county geographic boundaries still exist today in Mass, I'm not as well versed in other NE states). 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 23:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC) As stated before- this article is about the CURRENT status of the admistrative divisions of New York, even IF everything you say is correct about the former status and historicity of towns, it doesnt matter! This is not the article for ranking towns and cities based on their FORMER HISTORICAL functions. As the lead section correctly points out, the difference between a city and a town is NOT population (or anything else) it is only the type of government that the people of the town or city choose to have. To put cities below villages implies something that is not true. I now formally protest against JBC3's organization and say that it should be county, city, town, village; that is the correct ranking on ability of home rule and hierarchy. Cities are subservient to counties and are not independent of their jurisdiction in any aspect of anything the county wishes to have its hand in (just as the state has "pre-emption" rights in any topic it wants to pass a law on, so do counties over their cities, a city can not ignore a county law or fail to enforce it). Again- if you disagree bring sources to the table, dont just give me your opinion. 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 23:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
First, Polaron about that the Dutch had towns and you mentioned two of them- Wiltwyk and Breuckelen= Breuckelen would be Brooklyn, New York and as that article says, it was chartered as a village. I dont know about wiltwyk but I'm guessing again you are confusing town with village. Again, you arent getting your historical facts all the way correct- on July 9, 1776 the New York Provincial Congress met at White Plains, officially changing the name from "Province of New York" to the "State of New York", which by the way was attended to by delegates from counties plus a delegate that represented the Manor of Rensselaerswyck, not representatives from towns. 1788 is not when NY became a state, you are confusing the adoption of the US Constitution (1787) with NY becoming a state (1776), the USA existed as a nation from either the signing of the Declaration of Independence (1776) (which is what most people go by) or by the adoption of our first form of "permanent" government the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union (ironic I know) in 1781. The adoption of the Constitution was a good 10 years after we were a nation. I see no relevance to your assertion that 1788 was because NY became a state. You cant win an argument when you keep mistating facts from your butt, please do research this time before you say anything. When I am typing these facts, I am going to other websites and checking them first, some reading these facts may think I'm just BSing, but I'm not, I double check the facts in my head with facts on the web (multiple sources). Existing municipalities were not "grandfathered" in exept to the point that their boundaries (and sometimes names) would be used, but not their system of government which is what this article is about, its not about historical towns or districts, the Western District of the Manor of Rensselaerswyck in 1788 was changed to the town of Watervliet (town), New York, kept same boundaries and everything, but it was a different type of government. This article is about the system of government for municipalities we have had SINCE 1788, not before, otherwise I can now add districts, the old-style boroughs, patroonships/manors, and anything else I want from history because I'll have plenty of reliable verifiable sources so the info cant be challenged and deleted. Is that how you want this article to evolve? I have taken several of your "facts" and blown holes in them, do the same to me. 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 03:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
The first NYS Assembly meeting was in 1777, go to Speaker of the New York State Assembly for a list of every session How often are you going to make these claims without researching first? Everytime you write something I can refute it. Brooklyn and Kingston were never towns, ask anyone who knows the local history! Having a court does not make something a town, it was a village. Villages back then and villages today have courts! Yes, sources will say "town" as in the common-man way of saying a built-up urbanized area is a town, not a legal definition. All villages in New Netherland had a court, having a court is not a "town" thing, Albany was never a town, only a village and it had a court, and in its original charter as a village it was referred to "being an ancient town" as in it has existed as a settlement for a long time, it didnt have a govt prior to becoming a village so dont go back and say "that proves it was a town". It would be stupid to add former administrative divisions to this article as it would quickly get too big and reach the file maximum size for articles, its already pretty long as it is. Articles are supposed to be concise and stick to topic, I told you before I would be happy to work with you on a History of administrative divisions in New York, that would be a great place for all this information.
Since Michigan is the most similar in municipal structure (take my word for it!) by their charter townships being similar (but not quite) like our towns and having villages inside their townships I suggest we contact someone on their page and ask why they decided to go "county, city, village, township" as opposed to any other order. Another states that could be contact would be Wisconsin. I would not suggest New England states as towns there are not the same as towns here and have a different historical background (with the exception of some of our LI towns which I've explained were formed by NE'ers not respecting the Dutch claim). 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 20:41, 11 April 2009 (UTC) Copy/pasted from the history page of the official town of Sand Lake website-
I have independently verified to a large degree what is said on that website. Argue if you will, but districts were the municipality of choice back then, not towns. Towns only existed as a common way to refer to an establishment, irregardless of actual municipal government, as the village and later city of Albany was often referred to as the "Town of Albany" when no such municipal form ever existed. Have you never said "I'm going into town" to someone and the place you were going was not literally a "town"?! 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 20:58, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm changing it to County, City, Town, Village. Every time Polaron states an opinion as "fact" I have shown it to be false and misleading. I have set forth my case, I have backed it up with references and facts, I'm the only one who has. It is not the number of people who agree with you, its the strength of the case. Polaron's statements have been proven wrong over and over again. I'm not going through this anymore. This order reflects the correct hierarchy of power. 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 22:59, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I dont know if you are responding to me or not in that as you headed it with something else. Anyways, I havent read the references you gave, so I cant respond to much of what you are saying. I dont know what kind of books these "books on local government" say therefore yes I am ignoring them and I dont know what Camelbinky has said to you. So, if you think Michigan's format is best, go ahead and change it. 148.78.249.33 ( talk) 05:17, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Uh, ok...suuure. And you must be Wadester16 then? 148.78.249.33 ( talk) 05:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Ok, believe what you want, dont know what sockpuppetry is but I use multiple computers so yea sometimes my IP address is different when I sign with the four tildes if thats what you are talking about. You want to believe I'm Camelbinky ok, fine. But I just checked his/her user page, it doesnt exist, so I guess I can sign up for wikipedia and take that name if you want me to be that person. This talk page is supposed to be about the topic of the article ONLY, so...since our discussion about that is OVER, I have nothing more to say to you. Have fun. Buh-bye. Camelbinky ( talk) 06:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
:-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.78.249.33 ( talk) 06:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Can anyone identify (by location if not by name) a hamlet that does NOT have a name? The article says "Many hamlets have their own name[20]" - but the source does NOT say that. Source says: "Many places in the state having large numbers of people living in close proximity are neither villages nor cities. Many have names, some have post offices. Some, like Levittown on Long Island, have thousands of residents."
It seems to me that in the text below, the term is presented AS IF it has some formal definition.
-- the number of people does not matter (as long as its not zero), nor does the density - all that matters is that people refer to it by name, somebody lives there, but it is not incorporated.Instead:
Doesn't every place in NY where people live have a name of some kind? -- JimWae ( talk) 04:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I am NOT suggesting EVERY unincorporated named place is a separate hamlet (e.g. Manetto Hill) - just that ALL of them do have a name-- JimWae ( talk) 04:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Jim, I agree not every unincorporated named place is a separate hamlet and I agree that every hamlet by definition must have a name, however this source could be used as saying otherwise though I say since it uses the word "neighborhood" instead of hamlet it cant be used to say that there are hamlets with no-names. http://archives.timesunion.com/mweb/wmsql.wm.request?oneimage&imageid=5780438 Camelbinky ( talk) 06:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
JimWae, you didn't read far enough into the source. "Many places in the state having large numbers of people living in close proximity are neither villages nor cities. Many have names, some have post offices. Some, like Levittown on Long Island, have thousands of residents. If the people in such communities have not incorporated pursuant to the Village law, they do not constitute a village. While many people refer to such places as “hamlets”, the term “hamlet” actually has no meaning under New York law." So, many people refer to such places as hamlets, such places being such communities that have not incorporated, such communities being places in the state with a high population density outside of villages and cities, many of which have names. Seems like it's all right there in the source. -- JBC3 ( talk) 21:34, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
There's a cluster of people living around 40°54'32.61N and 73°04'28.13W. That specific cluster has houses and stores - it might have a name, it might not - let's presume it does not have a name any different from the larger surrounding area. So it's a place "in the state having large numbers of people living in close proximity", but the people in the community "have not incorporated pursuant to the Village law, they do not constitute a village", nor a city. . So here we have a place without a name distinct from the larger area - so it is not a hamlet either (the hamlet is larger than this) because (for one reason) it does not have a name of its own. When the source says "some have names", it is not saying "some hamlets have names" (tho it should be much clearer on this), it is saying that some population clusters have names. When it says "While many people refer to such places as “hamlets”", it ought to say "While many people refer to SOME such places as “hamlets”" (for nobody calls this particular place a hamlet). The residents could conceivable someday form a village of their own - but they would not be seceding from the larger hamlet. Many hamlets lose territory by having sections of it incorporate. The Village of Cove Neck has 300 people & 90 people per km2. It used to be part of the hamlet of Oyster Bay. There are undoubtedly less densely populated villages. Population density has nothing to do with being a village or a hamlet. There could conceivable be hamlets with a cluster of just 2 or 3 houses and a general store at the crossroads - which raises the point that a hamlet usually is not just residential but also commercial. Villages can be entirely residential.-- JimWae ( talk) 01:41, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Anton Nelessen is not a relevant source for a definition of a hamlet. He is not writing for NY, but in very general terms for the entire USA. The fact that one town chose to use his paper to present a boosterish description (not really a definition) of a hamlet does not make his paper any more relevant. The source may be intersteting, but it is used too prominently for a non-authoritative source -- JimWae ( talk) 05:19, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Anyone have a problem with removing the Other named places section? Seems rather common sense that places can have names but not be a municipality or hamlet. Thoughts? -- JBC3 ( talk) 16:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I haven't gotten any feedback on this, so I'm going to go for it. If anyone wants it back, feel free to restore it and we can talk about it here. -- JBC3 ( talk) 10:46, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't see why there are villages, what purpose do they serve? I think that'd be worthwhile -- why people want to form them. -- AW ( talk) 20:24, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Within the Town of Oyster Bay, for example, there are 18 villages and 18 hamlets. The U.S. Post Office has organized these 36 places into 30 different 5-digit ZIP codes. Obviously the boundaries of hamlets and ZIP codes cannot be the same. CDPs boundaries can and do change from one census to the next. There should be no expectation at all of any commonality between boundaries of hamlets, CDPs and ZIP codes -- nor school districts or fire districts. Villages are another matter, as the census bureau seems to attempt to observe their boundaries. Unfortunately, because statistics are readily available for the CDPs [and not so much for hamlets & school districts & ZIP codes], wikipedians have chosen to make the articles about the short-lived CDPs. -- JimWae ( talk) 18:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
What exactly does a ZIP Code "administer" for the Federal Government or for the USPS? What exactly does a CDP administer for the Federal government or Census Bureau? A CDP does not get any type of bureaucracy, not a single individual works for a CDP or is assigned to a CDP. The USPS delivers mail, it does not create laws nor enforce them, many ZIP codes actually are within another ZIP code or two if they are no longer delivery ZIPs and only for PO boxes at a physical location (such as Newtonville which covers parts of Latham and Loudonville; and Sand Lake which covers much of Averill Park and the physical address of the Sand Lake PO is actually an Averill Park address as is the Cumberland Farms gas station which it is attached to). Do you know of a "relationship to state administrative divisions" that I dont know about? because I cant think of a single one seeing as how ZIPs and CDPs cross town and county borders and dont administer anything and arent taken into consideration by towns in administering anything other than that towns like Halfmoon are constantly trying to get their own PO so their name can be on the businesses within their borders instead of having neighboring towns names on them. Camelbinky ( talk) 03:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
One of the best school district articles on a NY school district is Brunswick Central School District, it is one of the school districts that do not elect board members in November. Yet Shenendehowa Central School District does. Dont know why, though if he's not busy you may want to ask user:UpstateNYer, he may know why school districts have different election dates and how prevelant it is that they are not in November. Camelbinky ( talk) 21:36, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I read this line in the article, and it got me thinking:
Under the General Municipal Law of the State of New York, a borough results when the towns, villages and cities in a county merge with the county itself.
So, theoretically, all of the towns, villages, and incorporated cities of any county could consolidate with the county government and technically become a borough? BTW, great page, guys. My state's (Michigan) devolved government is directly based on New York states' with a few changes. When the Erie Canal opened, New Yorkers came to dominate my state's politics and culture. -- Criticalthinker ( talk) 07:40, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Thats the long answer; the short answer is- theoretically yes any county could consolidate and become that definition of a borough, in practice it probably would never happen and if it did it probably would be labelled a city (or consolidated city-county as Indiana and other states refer to them) and not a borough. Camelbinky ( talk) 21:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm not going to edit war but I don't care if it's right, there's no sources. WP:V is clear: verifiability, not truth. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 20:36, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
The sentence in the lead (or lede as some would type) has me scratching my head for an answer, I hope someone can clarify it- "Each such government is granted varying home rule powers as provided by the Federal and State Constitutions." Can someone point to where in the US Constitution home rule powers for municipal governments are "provided" for? The US Supreme Court has been clear in its ruling that municipal governments do not have any inherent right to exist or any inherent rights, "what a state creates a state may destroy" is the quote I learned waaaaaaay back in ps210 State and Local Government (which at the University at Albany the semester after I took it as a first semester freshman it became a 300 level course open only to juniors because of something I did...long story). Am I, and the esteemed justices of the highest court in the land, missing something that the editor of the NYS Municipal Law Handbook knows about the Constitution? As a source it really sucks to tell you the truth, you are always better off looking up the specific laws creating certain aspects of local governance than using the "handbook". Camelbinky ( talk) 03:39, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
What is the purpose of this map, and why the town section?
We cant find or create a proper map of the towns of the state? Though towns are quite small and that might not be informative. Pictures of different types of towns through the section, perhaps some that are unique, like a photo of the combined village/town hall of one of the five towns that are coterminous with their village. Towns are classified by rank, perhaps a photo of a town from each rank. Perhaps a photo of a rural town setting, a suburban town, and an urban town. But please remember downstate is not representative of the entire state, whatever replaces the map should give equal time to the more than 50% of us that dont live in the city of New York Camelbinky ( talk) 01:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Hello, New York! To defuse the edit war that has started at Category:County government in the United States, I'd appreciate some additional input on the topic of whether U.S. counties are (1) a level of local government or (2) an arm of state government. Discussion thus far is on my User talk page at User_talk:Orlady#County_government, but we could move it to a content-oriented talk page if desired. -- Orlady ( talk) 00:18, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
I have posted this issue to WikiProject United States, and WikiProject Politics. Please take your input to one or the other so I don't have to have 50 discussions. Greg Bard ( talk) 01:30, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
There is an image in the "Town" section showing a road in Crown Point vs a road in Newburgh. This image caption claims "Towns can vary greatly in many characteristics, as shown here." except this image does absolutely nothing to show how towns can vary in many characteristics, rather it shows the differences in traffic on two roads at the time the images were taken. For all I know Newburgh could actually be a very small town with almost no traffic but was busy one day as there was a quilting convention in town, and Crown point is actually a very busy town that happened to be having a slow day (everyone was at the quilting convention). I don't believe this image adds anything at all to the article and suggest it be removed. Potatoj316 ( talk) 17:50, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't consider it to have been
bold to add {{redirect|City (New York)|the most populous city in the state of New York|New York City}}
to the top of this article, and I don't see how this is a serious enough addition to warrant the use of the
BRD guidelines, but I'll be a good Wikicitizen and have a discussion about it. It is easy to get
City (New York) confused with
New York City, perhaps by way of
City of New York. I don't see the harm (especially given the existing problems with the rest of the article) in including this redirect message at the beginning. —
Gordon P. Hemsley→
✉ 20:43, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
So, are differences that a Census-designated place has to be in a densely settled concentration of population, and that a Hamlet has to be with a town (just one town)? -- 109.53.199.221 ( talk) 22:26, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
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I think there should be a section on electoral districts. Statewide there are congressional districts, state senate districts, assembly districts, judicial districts, and election districts (the basic electoral administrative division). It would also be nice to know how these interact with each other and with other administrative divisions (such as counties and NYC, the administrative divisions around which the boards of elections are organized). In New York City there also appears to be Civil Court election districts. Over time I'm sure more will come up. Int21h ( talk) 04:52, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
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The first paragraph under the "Towns" section states that "[u]nlike most Northeastern states, every square foot of New York is incorporated; all residents who do not live in a city or on an Indian reservation live in a town." (Emphasis mine)
If we are defining the Northeast as the six New England states plus New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, as is almost always the case, then this statement is false. In addition to New York, every square foot of land in New Jersey, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island is incorporated as well. These account for five out of a total of nine states in the Northeast. I am going to go ahead and change the sentence to reflect this, but I wanted to be clear about my rationale for doing so in case there is a reason for the current wording that I have overlooked. -- WhyteCypress 00:46, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
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- Apocheir ( talk) 15:56, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
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This page could stand a great deal more wikification. There are many terms used here which have adequate free-standing articles and should be properly cross-referneced. 18.24.0.120 05:19, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
These should probably be added. If anyone has knowledge on the subject, please share. Otherwise, I will investigate. (I am a bit embarrassed that as a Brooklynite, I am unfamiliar with the purpose and function of these.)[[User:Nricardo|-- Nelson Ricardo >>Talk<<]] 21:41, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)
Even though the article for the state itself is at New York, not New York State (which is a re-direct,) why do several articles relating to it say "New York State" in them?? 66.245.82.61 00:52, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The phrasing "The definitions of the political subdivisions of New York State differ from those in most other states" seems a little strong to me. To be honest, I see very little in this article that is dramatically different from most other states. older≠ wiser 03:01, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
I think a recent addition makes for contradictory phrasing: The term "hamlet" actually has no meaning under New York law, and is often used in the state's statutes merely to refer to well-known developed areas that are not separately incorporated as villages. If the term is used in state statutes, then how can it be without meaning under New York law. I suspect that what is meant is simply that "hamlets" are not defined as a type of municipality. older≠ wiser 12:29, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
Using the "What links here" link, I see that there are dozens of links on Wikipedia to Political subdivisions of New York State, which is a redirect to this page, and only one or two directly to this page. I suggest it would make more sense to rename this page than to redo the dozens of links. Unless anyone objects, I'll make this change in a day or two. RussBlau 15:21, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For source on the City of Sherrill not being independent of the town government, see the city charter, which is linked to from the Sherrill, New York article. RussBlau 19:15, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
The article identifies the various types of school districts by name only and does not specify why there are various types of school districts or how they differ. That part of the article is not very helpful, especially to people who live in different states, where school organization can be radically different. Clarification is respectfully requested. Doctor Whom 02:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Those were both wrong. I have corrected them (although the former does have a qualifier, duly noted). Daniel Case 05:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I recently changed a section heading from "...particular to New York..." to "...peculiar to New York...". The change was reverted, with a comment that the original "makes more sense". That's subjective, so I've re-applied the edit. If you are considering reverting again, I would ask that you first consult a dictionary: (for example, http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=particular and http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=peculiar). If the change is reverted again, I won't reapply it, since I'm not looking for trouble ;-) uFu 01:01, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
For lack of a better place to put it: /Disambiguated divisions -- SPUI ( T - C) 00:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
And a proposal: Wikipedia:Political subdivisions of New York -- SPUI ( T - C) 01:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The proposed bill recently cited in the Hamlet section will likely not pass on two counts: 1) it is poorly written and uses unofficial terms such as "unincorporated village" (if it's a village, it's incorporated) and 2) hamlets do not have defined borders, so it would be impossible to develop statistics for them. -- Nelson Ricardo 06:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Not to be elitist or anything (yes, I am), but perhaps the terminology issues relate to the bill's sponsor not being a college graduate. -- Nelson Ricardo 07:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I do not understand why this page should not be in the Geography of New York category. There are two basic types of geography: natural and political. This article definitely falls under political geography. -- Nelson Ricardo 17:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
This article says "Each of the five boroughs of New York City is coextensive with one of its five counties." This is generally thought to be true, and it is, but with an exception that makes it not be true: Theres a small piece of what is geographically in the Bronx, Marble Hill, which is actually part of New York County, and used to be part of Manhattan. When the Harlem River was re-routed in the early 20th century, this piece of land (less than a square mile) was attached to the Bronx by filling in a canal, but is still part of its old borough. Capek 21:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Marble Hill does not belong to the borough of the Bronx, it is in both the county of New York and the borough of Manhattan. Police precincts in the city of New York do not have to conform to county or borough lines that is why there is overlap. Marble Hill became "attached" to the mainland next to the Bronx due to manmade intervention by moving the river. Read the article Marble Hill, Manhattan for more info on how it came to be. Camelbinky ( talk) 05:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Can someone please clarify something for me? The article says that cities are mostly autonomous. Does that mean that they are not under the jurisdiction of the county? What I mean is, is a city in New York like an independent city in Virginia, or does the county still have some involvement in operations (like sheriffs and courts)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jzcrandall ( talk • contribs) 06:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know of any instance in which an incorporated village actually does straddle a county line? I know some like Ballston Spa and Nassau straddle town lines but I've never heard of a village straddling a county line. Also are there any cities other than New York that straddle more than one county or take up an entire county? Camelbinky ( talk) 04:53, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
http://www.dos.state.ny.us/lgss/pdfs/Handbook.pdf has been updated. I'll try to see whether there is any new material of interest. It may take me a while to turn my attention to this, so if anyone else has an interest, go for it! -- Nricardo ( talk) 12:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
A few sentences from the "County" section don't add up:
If my math is right, that only accounts for 52 counties. How are the other ten governed? -- Jfruh ( talk) 21:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Your math is correct, sir/madam. These remaining counties are technically governed by ME, actually. I am officially the "Head N_____ In Charge" as well as the County Executive of the ten remaining counties. Each one contains several towns, villages, cities, a few hamlets, and several omelets -- the number varies based on the way I'm feeling at any particular moment. If and when anyone causes any problems/breaks any rules (which are determined by me), the penalty is a major beat-down. Also, marijuana is legal. And peyote. The charters for these counties are written on the back of a Chinese take-out menu that hangs on my fridge. I am getting in framed one of these days. If anyone would like, I will scan it and post it. Any questions, please contact me. 50.75.20.196 ( talk) 17:27, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
This subsection (Similarity to New England towns) seems as though it doesn't quite fit in with this article. Even so, the information therein could be folded into the Towns section in some way if it were relevant, I would think... -- JBC3 ( talk) 23:25, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The article mentions several times that towns are similar to civil townships in other states but after having read that article I see no similarity in political structure as towns in NY are incorporated municipalities with many more functions than townships in other states, a better analogy would be to compare NY towns with Michigan's charter townships if towns are going to compared to any other state's townships. I will be changing the article to reflect this. Camelbinky ( talk) 14:40, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Three cities in NY have inner and outer districts, Saratoga Springs, Rome, and Oneida. The outer districts have lesser services and are taxed at a lesser rate accordingly. http://www.nyslocalgov.org/pdf/City-Town_Consolidation.pdf page 3 section heading- Dual Property Tax Zones This is often attributed to those three cities being "consolidated city/town governments" (though I cant find citation of it on the web right now, so am going to check actual books next). Camelbinky ( talk) 01:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC) That website by the way is an official NY state government site and report so is reliable. the home page is www.nyslocalgov.org and is the site for the New York State Commission on Local Government Efficiency and Competitiveness and has lots of info on the current wave of consolidation talk coming from AG Andrew Cuomo and Gov. David Paterso. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Camelbinky ( talk • contribs)
Ok, Ill check those three cities to make sure they have that info. I just thought it might fit in this article since those are the ONLY three cities in the state to have separate districts for their property taxes, they arent special taxing districts. Also, if my info is correct, they are city-town consolidated governments, the only three in the state, if I can find citation for that fact I do believe that part should be mentioned, since village-town consolidated govts ARE mentioned (Green Island and at least two others). Camelbinky ( talk) 14:34, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree with your assement that the 3 cities having separate tax districts probably doesnt fit in. I dont want you to think I'm arguing with you or being stubborn about wanting it in, I was just curious as to other people's feelings on the info, if I had been certain that it warranted being in the article I wouldve put it in first. I really dont want to alienate someone I have enjoyed working with. I'll definitely keep looking for sources on the town-city consolidation, I know I read it in one of my text books as an undergrad but I cant seem to find either the original book nor any current undergrad book with the same info (I probably returned the book for money, I was a poor freshman and needed beer probably!). If I were to email an old professor and could I cite his/her statement or would I have to ask for the professor to give me a proper published citation to that statement of his/hers? Would it be a COI for the professor to give me a citation of a book he/she published? I just want to cover all bases now instead of getting in trouble with any "citation police" down the line. You know me, wiki-rules to the letter. :-) Camelbinky ( talk) 03:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I'll ask wadester or an admin, I have a serious problem with Hippo being "knowledgeable" about wikipolicy, I is a strict constructionist and sees only black and white and that is not how wikipedia is supposed to be run, there's a reason all wikipolicy pages say at the top that they are not hard-fast rules and commonsense should be used in applying or disregarding, there are always exceptions to the rule. That's a discussion that doesnt belong here though. I know e-mails from people in authority have been used before (emails from people at DOT have been used for road articles). I'm a big believer in "common law" wikipedia rules, if something is commonly accepted in the community and it isnt following the strict letter of policy then it is still ok. I might not be in the right on that, but that's my opinion. I wasnt even thinking of hippo when I said citation police but strange that you would assume that! I think it says something about hippo when people automatically associate him with that term. No single person, esp a non-admin, should take it upon themselves to pass judgement on other editors contributions, concensus should always be reached first, it alienates and discourages established editors and can be considered "biting" newbies and scare them away as well. Camelbinky ( talk) 16:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
New York Law 1886 1:748f is the law that divided the state into towns. 148.78.249.33 ( talk) 03:05, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I decided to be bold and switch sections around to improve the article. Figured I ought to explain why I did it though.
(1) Because Census-designated places and hamlets are not administrative divisions but are still important to discussion about New York State divisions and placenames, I felt it appropriate to keep them and move them into the Town section as subsections. Towns exercise the local administrative powers within CDPs and hamlets.
(2) Counties are the major division of New York, towns are the major divisions of counties. It makes sense to put towns right after counties. Villages are formed from and are part of towns, so it makes sense for them to come next. Cities are the exception in New York government, so it made sense for them to come after the others.
--
JBC3 (
talk) 00:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
From the article-Whether a municipality is a city, town or village is not dependent on population or area, but on the form of government selected by the residents and approved by the state legislature. New York considers counties, cities, towns and villages to be "municipal corporations" and "general purpose" units of local government.
Ok, not to be patronizing, but no your view on the history of towns is wrong. Please do some searching on New York Municipal Code, come up with reliable verifiable sources and come back to this discussion. You are mistaken as to the historical functions of towns, what you are describing are townships as they are defined in other states and you may have read other sources that got the distinction between NY towns and other state's townships mistaken. Most cities in New York were created straight from whole towns or villages, not from sections of towns so they could get more administrative powers, such as the city of Watervliet being formed from the village of West Troy which was coterminous with the town of Watervliet. Plus this article is about the administrative divisions of New York as they are today, it is not an article on the History of administrative divisions of New York, which I would love to work with you on if you want to start that article as there would be a place for "districts" which New York used to have before the 1788 law that divided the entire state into towns and therefore no longer exist as a municipality and therefore have no place in this article. Cities are not created through a separate process from towns or villages, all are regulated and created (or destroyed) by the same "New York Home Rule Municipal Law", the New York state assembly website is a good place to start for current and former laws in the state of New York. As far as I'm concerned I'm not having this discussion with you until you can cite legislation to back up your claims, until then I wont respond. As far as I'm concerned the final decision is JBC3's as to the organizing and wording of this article, you may bring it up with him if you want something changed. 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 02:25, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I don't feel like I own this page or have final say so over anything. I'm trying to build concensus on the order of sections so as to best present the article to readers, which is what this section of the talk page is supposed to be about. --
JBC3 (
talk) 02:44, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Discussion on section order got off topic and unneccessarily heated and was therefor unproductive.
Main arguments: JBC3 felt the order of sections should be county, town, village, city; he made the change and posted his reasons for doing so. Upon receiving suggestions for alternative orders, an off-topic discussion ensued regarding the differences between municipalities and the differences in personal understandings of what said municipalities are/were. This was done largely without discussing the ideal section order and without contributing significantly to the article. -- JBC3 ( talk) 07:26, 10 April 2009 (UTC) |
For what it's worth, I like the current section order (county, town, village, city, NYC), which is also used in the book by Moyer (Chap. 7) that I added in the Further reading section. This has the benefit of being hierarchial for areas outside cities, with cities being an exception to the general hierarchy and NYC being an exception to cities. -- Polaron | Talk 15:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I dont care if the above discussion is "closed" about the order of the article, I've always said it was JBC3's call. But as to the new discussion about town vs. city and which is older, Polaron, you are plain wrong about towns in New Netherland. There is a New Netherland project we can get someone from there to give us history on it. The towns on Long Island you refer to are what were established by New England settlers back when New England colonies, especially CT claimed LI against the Dutch. As for the state of New York, check NY law, it was in 1788 that the entire state was divided into towns, towns did not exist prior to the original 12 counties, only districts and boroughs and cities and villages, there may have been exceptions of there being TOWNSHIPS in NE influenced areas on Long Island I will concede that, but those arent towns as NY established them in 1788. There is plenty of places to find this information on the internet, look it up. Its not that counties grew stronger in NY and counties grew weaker in NE, you dont know history obviously, research the history of Albany, or any other of the 12 original counties, research the history of counties in NE they were ALWAYS weak because yes in NE counties were later and towns were first, but NOT in NY. Patroonships were first before any city, town, village or anything, we dont list them in this article because they dont exist anymore, the Rensselaerswyck patroonship used to even have its own representative to the NY legislature and its own "county" court system even though it was included within the borders of Albany County (and prior to any towns whatsever existing) and Albany County had a duplicate sheriff/county court system. You dont have to believe me, fine, I'm not going to continue to argue with you, you have shown you are pulling NY history out your butt. I'm done discussing this with you, respond if you must I'm not watching this page anymore. Go ahead and continue to make wikipedia the laughingstock of encyclopedia's and reinforce why no one thinks of this as a reliable website; all because of people not deferring to those who know better. 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 20:39, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
That is not quite the whole story but in the interest of making this discussion less "arrogant" and more informative I apologize as you are technically correct that towns do not cross county borders, but you are incorrect in implying that they somehow function as administrative districts OF counties instead of as incorporated municipal corporations of their own right with home rule status and the ability to pass and regulate laws of their own, that is what I am so upset about, I apologize for coming off as arrogant, I simply disagreed with your implication that somehow towns are just subdivisions of counties.
Part of the misunderstanding going on is the definition of town, Polaron and Bkonrad dont see the difference between the "towns" that are mentioned in things like the ones mentioned in the establishment of the original 12 counties and the towns created in 1788. The ones in 1788 are the ones that are the predecessors to our towns and had very much the same functions. 1788 was the total overhaul of municipal government. The towns, districts, boroughs, etc that were before it were scrapped and every scrap of territory in NY was divided into towns whereas previously it was a mismatch and there were gaps of territory in counties that werent a part of any lower government territory. As for NE counties never were much more than they are now, they havent lost any power, they just never had any real power to begin with so the dissolution of some (though not really because the county still exists but not the government, state level courts at the county geographic boundaries still exist today in Mass, I'm not as well versed in other NE states). 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 23:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC) As stated before- this article is about the CURRENT status of the admistrative divisions of New York, even IF everything you say is correct about the former status and historicity of towns, it doesnt matter! This is not the article for ranking towns and cities based on their FORMER HISTORICAL functions. As the lead section correctly points out, the difference between a city and a town is NOT population (or anything else) it is only the type of government that the people of the town or city choose to have. To put cities below villages implies something that is not true. I now formally protest against JBC3's organization and say that it should be county, city, town, village; that is the correct ranking on ability of home rule and hierarchy. Cities are subservient to counties and are not independent of their jurisdiction in any aspect of anything the county wishes to have its hand in (just as the state has "pre-emption" rights in any topic it wants to pass a law on, so do counties over their cities, a city can not ignore a county law or fail to enforce it). Again- if you disagree bring sources to the table, dont just give me your opinion. 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 23:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
First, Polaron about that the Dutch had towns and you mentioned two of them- Wiltwyk and Breuckelen= Breuckelen would be Brooklyn, New York and as that article says, it was chartered as a village. I dont know about wiltwyk but I'm guessing again you are confusing town with village. Again, you arent getting your historical facts all the way correct- on July 9, 1776 the New York Provincial Congress met at White Plains, officially changing the name from "Province of New York" to the "State of New York", which by the way was attended to by delegates from counties plus a delegate that represented the Manor of Rensselaerswyck, not representatives from towns. 1788 is not when NY became a state, you are confusing the adoption of the US Constitution (1787) with NY becoming a state (1776), the USA existed as a nation from either the signing of the Declaration of Independence (1776) (which is what most people go by) or by the adoption of our first form of "permanent" government the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union (ironic I know) in 1781. The adoption of the Constitution was a good 10 years after we were a nation. I see no relevance to your assertion that 1788 was because NY became a state. You cant win an argument when you keep mistating facts from your butt, please do research this time before you say anything. When I am typing these facts, I am going to other websites and checking them first, some reading these facts may think I'm just BSing, but I'm not, I double check the facts in my head with facts on the web (multiple sources). Existing municipalities were not "grandfathered" in exept to the point that their boundaries (and sometimes names) would be used, but not their system of government which is what this article is about, its not about historical towns or districts, the Western District of the Manor of Rensselaerswyck in 1788 was changed to the town of Watervliet (town), New York, kept same boundaries and everything, but it was a different type of government. This article is about the system of government for municipalities we have had SINCE 1788, not before, otherwise I can now add districts, the old-style boroughs, patroonships/manors, and anything else I want from history because I'll have plenty of reliable verifiable sources so the info cant be challenged and deleted. Is that how you want this article to evolve? I have taken several of your "facts" and blown holes in them, do the same to me. 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 03:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
The first NYS Assembly meeting was in 1777, go to Speaker of the New York State Assembly for a list of every session How often are you going to make these claims without researching first? Everytime you write something I can refute it. Brooklyn and Kingston were never towns, ask anyone who knows the local history! Having a court does not make something a town, it was a village. Villages back then and villages today have courts! Yes, sources will say "town" as in the common-man way of saying a built-up urbanized area is a town, not a legal definition. All villages in New Netherland had a court, having a court is not a "town" thing, Albany was never a town, only a village and it had a court, and in its original charter as a village it was referred to "being an ancient town" as in it has existed as a settlement for a long time, it didnt have a govt prior to becoming a village so dont go back and say "that proves it was a town". It would be stupid to add former administrative divisions to this article as it would quickly get too big and reach the file maximum size for articles, its already pretty long as it is. Articles are supposed to be concise and stick to topic, I told you before I would be happy to work with you on a History of administrative divisions in New York, that would be a great place for all this information.
Since Michigan is the most similar in municipal structure (take my word for it!) by their charter townships being similar (but not quite) like our towns and having villages inside their townships I suggest we contact someone on their page and ask why they decided to go "county, city, village, township" as opposed to any other order. Another states that could be contact would be Wisconsin. I would not suggest New England states as towns there are not the same as towns here and have a different historical background (with the exception of some of our LI towns which I've explained were formed by NE'ers not respecting the Dutch claim). 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 20:41, 11 April 2009 (UTC) Copy/pasted from the history page of the official town of Sand Lake website-
I have independently verified to a large degree what is said on that website. Argue if you will, but districts were the municipality of choice back then, not towns. Towns only existed as a common way to refer to an establishment, irregardless of actual municipal government, as the village and later city of Albany was often referred to as the "Town of Albany" when no such municipal form ever existed. Have you never said "I'm going into town" to someone and the place you were going was not literally a "town"?! 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 20:58, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm changing it to County, City, Town, Village. Every time Polaron states an opinion as "fact" I have shown it to be false and misleading. I have set forth my case, I have backed it up with references and facts, I'm the only one who has. It is not the number of people who agree with you, its the strength of the case. Polaron's statements have been proven wrong over and over again. I'm not going through this anymore. This order reflects the correct hierarchy of power. 24.182.142.254 ( talk) 22:59, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I dont know if you are responding to me or not in that as you headed it with something else. Anyways, I havent read the references you gave, so I cant respond to much of what you are saying. I dont know what kind of books these "books on local government" say therefore yes I am ignoring them and I dont know what Camelbinky has said to you. So, if you think Michigan's format is best, go ahead and change it. 148.78.249.33 ( talk) 05:17, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Uh, ok...suuure. And you must be Wadester16 then? 148.78.249.33 ( talk) 05:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Ok, believe what you want, dont know what sockpuppetry is but I use multiple computers so yea sometimes my IP address is different when I sign with the four tildes if thats what you are talking about. You want to believe I'm Camelbinky ok, fine. But I just checked his/her user page, it doesnt exist, so I guess I can sign up for wikipedia and take that name if you want me to be that person. This talk page is supposed to be about the topic of the article ONLY, so...since our discussion about that is OVER, I have nothing more to say to you. Have fun. Buh-bye. Camelbinky ( talk) 06:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
:-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.78.249.33 ( talk) 06:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Can anyone identify (by location if not by name) a hamlet that does NOT have a name? The article says "Many hamlets have their own name[20]" - but the source does NOT say that. Source says: "Many places in the state having large numbers of people living in close proximity are neither villages nor cities. Many have names, some have post offices. Some, like Levittown on Long Island, have thousands of residents."
It seems to me that in the text below, the term is presented AS IF it has some formal definition.
-- the number of people does not matter (as long as its not zero), nor does the density - all that matters is that people refer to it by name, somebody lives there, but it is not incorporated.Instead:
Doesn't every place in NY where people live have a name of some kind? -- JimWae ( talk) 04:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I am NOT suggesting EVERY unincorporated named place is a separate hamlet (e.g. Manetto Hill) - just that ALL of them do have a name-- JimWae ( talk) 04:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Jim, I agree not every unincorporated named place is a separate hamlet and I agree that every hamlet by definition must have a name, however this source could be used as saying otherwise though I say since it uses the word "neighborhood" instead of hamlet it cant be used to say that there are hamlets with no-names. http://archives.timesunion.com/mweb/wmsql.wm.request?oneimage&imageid=5780438 Camelbinky ( talk) 06:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
JimWae, you didn't read far enough into the source. "Many places in the state having large numbers of people living in close proximity are neither villages nor cities. Many have names, some have post offices. Some, like Levittown on Long Island, have thousands of residents. If the people in such communities have not incorporated pursuant to the Village law, they do not constitute a village. While many people refer to such places as “hamlets”, the term “hamlet” actually has no meaning under New York law." So, many people refer to such places as hamlets, such places being such communities that have not incorporated, such communities being places in the state with a high population density outside of villages and cities, many of which have names. Seems like it's all right there in the source. -- JBC3 ( talk) 21:34, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
There's a cluster of people living around 40°54'32.61N and 73°04'28.13W. That specific cluster has houses and stores - it might have a name, it might not - let's presume it does not have a name any different from the larger surrounding area. So it's a place "in the state having large numbers of people living in close proximity", but the people in the community "have not incorporated pursuant to the Village law, they do not constitute a village", nor a city. . So here we have a place without a name distinct from the larger area - so it is not a hamlet either (the hamlet is larger than this) because (for one reason) it does not have a name of its own. When the source says "some have names", it is not saying "some hamlets have names" (tho it should be much clearer on this), it is saying that some population clusters have names. When it says "While many people refer to such places as “hamlets”", it ought to say "While many people refer to SOME such places as “hamlets”" (for nobody calls this particular place a hamlet). The residents could conceivable someday form a village of their own - but they would not be seceding from the larger hamlet. Many hamlets lose territory by having sections of it incorporate. The Village of Cove Neck has 300 people & 90 people per km2. It used to be part of the hamlet of Oyster Bay. There are undoubtedly less densely populated villages. Population density has nothing to do with being a village or a hamlet. There could conceivable be hamlets with a cluster of just 2 or 3 houses and a general store at the crossroads - which raises the point that a hamlet usually is not just residential but also commercial. Villages can be entirely residential.-- JimWae ( talk) 01:41, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Anton Nelessen is not a relevant source for a definition of a hamlet. He is not writing for NY, but in very general terms for the entire USA. The fact that one town chose to use his paper to present a boosterish description (not really a definition) of a hamlet does not make his paper any more relevant. The source may be intersteting, but it is used too prominently for a non-authoritative source -- JimWae ( talk) 05:19, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Anyone have a problem with removing the Other named places section? Seems rather common sense that places can have names but not be a municipality or hamlet. Thoughts? -- JBC3 ( talk) 16:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I haven't gotten any feedback on this, so I'm going to go for it. If anyone wants it back, feel free to restore it and we can talk about it here. -- JBC3 ( talk) 10:46, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't see why there are villages, what purpose do they serve? I think that'd be worthwhile -- why people want to form them. -- AW ( talk) 20:24, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Within the Town of Oyster Bay, for example, there are 18 villages and 18 hamlets. The U.S. Post Office has organized these 36 places into 30 different 5-digit ZIP codes. Obviously the boundaries of hamlets and ZIP codes cannot be the same. CDPs boundaries can and do change from one census to the next. There should be no expectation at all of any commonality between boundaries of hamlets, CDPs and ZIP codes -- nor school districts or fire districts. Villages are another matter, as the census bureau seems to attempt to observe their boundaries. Unfortunately, because statistics are readily available for the CDPs [and not so much for hamlets & school districts & ZIP codes], wikipedians have chosen to make the articles about the short-lived CDPs. -- JimWae ( talk) 18:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
What exactly does a ZIP Code "administer" for the Federal Government or for the USPS? What exactly does a CDP administer for the Federal government or Census Bureau? A CDP does not get any type of bureaucracy, not a single individual works for a CDP or is assigned to a CDP. The USPS delivers mail, it does not create laws nor enforce them, many ZIP codes actually are within another ZIP code or two if they are no longer delivery ZIPs and only for PO boxes at a physical location (such as Newtonville which covers parts of Latham and Loudonville; and Sand Lake which covers much of Averill Park and the physical address of the Sand Lake PO is actually an Averill Park address as is the Cumberland Farms gas station which it is attached to). Do you know of a "relationship to state administrative divisions" that I dont know about? because I cant think of a single one seeing as how ZIPs and CDPs cross town and county borders and dont administer anything and arent taken into consideration by towns in administering anything other than that towns like Halfmoon are constantly trying to get their own PO so their name can be on the businesses within their borders instead of having neighboring towns names on them. Camelbinky ( talk) 03:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
One of the best school district articles on a NY school district is Brunswick Central School District, it is one of the school districts that do not elect board members in November. Yet Shenendehowa Central School District does. Dont know why, though if he's not busy you may want to ask user:UpstateNYer, he may know why school districts have different election dates and how prevelant it is that they are not in November. Camelbinky ( talk) 21:36, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I read this line in the article, and it got me thinking:
Under the General Municipal Law of the State of New York, a borough results when the towns, villages and cities in a county merge with the county itself.
So, theoretically, all of the towns, villages, and incorporated cities of any county could consolidate with the county government and technically become a borough? BTW, great page, guys. My state's (Michigan) devolved government is directly based on New York states' with a few changes. When the Erie Canal opened, New Yorkers came to dominate my state's politics and culture. -- Criticalthinker ( talk) 07:40, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Thats the long answer; the short answer is- theoretically yes any county could consolidate and become that definition of a borough, in practice it probably would never happen and if it did it probably would be labelled a city (or consolidated city-county as Indiana and other states refer to them) and not a borough. Camelbinky ( talk) 21:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm not going to edit war but I don't care if it's right, there's no sources. WP:V is clear: verifiability, not truth. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 20:36, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
The sentence in the lead (or lede as some would type) has me scratching my head for an answer, I hope someone can clarify it- "Each such government is granted varying home rule powers as provided by the Federal and State Constitutions." Can someone point to where in the US Constitution home rule powers for municipal governments are "provided" for? The US Supreme Court has been clear in its ruling that municipal governments do not have any inherent right to exist or any inherent rights, "what a state creates a state may destroy" is the quote I learned waaaaaaay back in ps210 State and Local Government (which at the University at Albany the semester after I took it as a first semester freshman it became a 300 level course open only to juniors because of something I did...long story). Am I, and the esteemed justices of the highest court in the land, missing something that the editor of the NYS Municipal Law Handbook knows about the Constitution? As a source it really sucks to tell you the truth, you are always better off looking up the specific laws creating certain aspects of local governance than using the "handbook". Camelbinky ( talk) 03:39, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
What is the purpose of this map, and why the town section?
We cant find or create a proper map of the towns of the state? Though towns are quite small and that might not be informative. Pictures of different types of towns through the section, perhaps some that are unique, like a photo of the combined village/town hall of one of the five towns that are coterminous with their village. Towns are classified by rank, perhaps a photo of a town from each rank. Perhaps a photo of a rural town setting, a suburban town, and an urban town. But please remember downstate is not representative of the entire state, whatever replaces the map should give equal time to the more than 50% of us that dont live in the city of New York Camelbinky ( talk) 01:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Hello, New York! To defuse the edit war that has started at Category:County government in the United States, I'd appreciate some additional input on the topic of whether U.S. counties are (1) a level of local government or (2) an arm of state government. Discussion thus far is on my User talk page at User_talk:Orlady#County_government, but we could move it to a content-oriented talk page if desired. -- Orlady ( talk) 00:18, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
I have posted this issue to WikiProject United States, and WikiProject Politics. Please take your input to one or the other so I don't have to have 50 discussions. Greg Bard ( talk) 01:30, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
There is an image in the "Town" section showing a road in Crown Point vs a road in Newburgh. This image caption claims "Towns can vary greatly in many characteristics, as shown here." except this image does absolutely nothing to show how towns can vary in many characteristics, rather it shows the differences in traffic on two roads at the time the images were taken. For all I know Newburgh could actually be a very small town with almost no traffic but was busy one day as there was a quilting convention in town, and Crown point is actually a very busy town that happened to be having a slow day (everyone was at the quilting convention). I don't believe this image adds anything at all to the article and suggest it be removed. Potatoj316 ( talk) 17:50, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
I don't consider it to have been
bold to add {{redirect|City (New York)|the most populous city in the state of New York|New York City}}
to the top of this article, and I don't see how this is a serious enough addition to warrant the use of the
BRD guidelines, but I'll be a good Wikicitizen and have a discussion about it. It is easy to get
City (New York) confused with
New York City, perhaps by way of
City of New York. I don't see the harm (especially given the existing problems with the rest of the article) in including this redirect message at the beginning. —
Gordon P. Hemsley→
✉ 20:43, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
So, are differences that a Census-designated place has to be in a densely settled concentration of population, and that a Hamlet has to be with a town (just one town)? -- 109.53.199.221 ( talk) 22:26, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
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I think there should be a section on electoral districts. Statewide there are congressional districts, state senate districts, assembly districts, judicial districts, and election districts (the basic electoral administrative division). It would also be nice to know how these interact with each other and with other administrative divisions (such as counties and NYC, the administrative divisions around which the boards of elections are organized). In New York City there also appears to be Civil Court election districts. Over time I'm sure more will come up. Int21h ( talk) 04:52, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
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The first paragraph under the "Towns" section states that "[u]nlike most Northeastern states, every square foot of New York is incorporated; all residents who do not live in a city or on an Indian reservation live in a town." (Emphasis mine)
If we are defining the Northeast as the six New England states plus New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, as is almost always the case, then this statement is false. In addition to New York, every square foot of land in New Jersey, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island is incorporated as well. These account for five out of a total of nine states in the Northeast. I am going to go ahead and change the sentence to reflect this, but I wanted to be clear about my rationale for doing so in case there is a reason for the current wording that I have overlooked. -- WhyteCypress 00:46, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
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- Apocheir ( talk) 15:56, 17 October 2021 (UTC)