This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Your "not reliable" analysis is little more than your own opinion. The people at this page can judge the relative merit of your claims of "original research." Apparently you will have a response either dismissing the source, or characterizing the mention of "performance order" in whatever sources I post, so (for real, this time), I'll leave you to it. But please do not attempt to remove the columns again without consensus here to do so. I'm not unwatching this page, just disengaging from this unproductive exchange. Interestingly, some of the sources you casually dismiss as "not reliable" are currently cited in the article. Unit Anode 02:45, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Outdent. You can stop implying I've made my "intractibility very clear", indeed I've asked for reliable sourcing to lead the way and the lack of any that supports your broad assertions would indicate my concerns are correct. The only thing these sources supports in this debate is that teh last position has been termed the "pimp spot" or "pimp slot" and some fans feel it garners more votes. No evidence that the order number for all the other spots affects anything and no evidence that the order number actually affects anything has been presented. I'm eager to be proven wrong on this so we can explain to our readers why this information is relevant and should be a part of the article. If not it should go. -- Banjeboi 21:19, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Just weighing in here, the performance order is not original research by any means. Its a fact and should be treated as such. What Banjeboi is challenging is the notability of the info. All (or at least most) of the sources that have been provided have been blogs, which are not acceptable reliable sources because they do constitute as original research of a non-established source. The simple fact that Lambert performed fifth in Top 11 week is a simple fact that could be verified even with citing the primary source, just a plot of a book, or a summary of a TV episode. The notability of the information is in question though. Why does it matter that he performed in a certain order and the sources provided only find that there might be a correlation between performance order and result. But there isn't anything specific about Lambert performing in a certain order affecting his result. BOVINEBOY2008 02:25, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Somebody posted that the album is going to be released on November 17th but there's no citation. Is this fact true? If it is, please put the citation and if you're certain it's not, delete it. -- Kyzo76 ( talk) 19:55, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I think it would be helpful to add a link to the article "American Idols Live! Tour 2009" somewhere in this article. Perhaps in the 'post idol' category? Example: As one of the Top 10 contestants of American Idol, Adam Lambert performed in the nationwide concert tour "American Idols Live! Tour 2009" from July to September 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.171.157.201 ( talk) 23:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if this is important enough to merit inclusion or has reliable sources, but I just wanted to put out there that it exists. From http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1485108/ and http://www.rockstarweekly.com/content/view/925/149/ he's supposedly going to be in a movie about the Zodiac Show. Snood199 ( talk) 20:31, 24 September 2009 (UTC) (I forgot to sign earlier)
Adam confirmed this won't be his single. It should be deleted from the singles table!-- 78.2.6.234 ( talk) 19:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I would like to point out that it is no longer summer and HiFi has not released the CD nor has released any other statements since the end of June. Therefore, I'm just going to assume they're not releasing it and delete extraneous information of including OWTS off the discography. Kyuu ( talk) 05:37, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I would like to just say, Adam Lambert should get out of the music business. What he does on stage is not entertainment, unless you want to see pornagraphy. A new low in the entertainment, and I use the work loosely, industry. That's what happens when the talent pool is so small. I will no longer watch ABC, FOX (American Idol). Have a wonderful life singing and dancing in smoke filled rooms that offer lap dances for entertainment.
Should someone write that Adam is no. 1 at Amazon?-- 78.2.16.8 ( talk) 13:47, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Should Adam Lambert's style really be called glam rock or experimental rock? This citation suggets Alternative rock, musical theater and pop idol as genres. Listening to his Lambert's music, it doesn't seem to follow the definitions of the genre from these sources [1]. Can we have this corrected? Andrzejbanas ( talk) 06:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
There seem to be a great many eager editors (mostly unregistered IPs) who keep trying to change the title to "Personal Life." As it is, the section I feel is accurately titled, since it is devoted to rumors about his sexuality that came out during and after his stint in AI. (Note its placing in the article, under the "American Idol" heading; it is addressing a controversy that emerged while he was on the show.) If people want to start an actual Personal Life section, find other material besides rumors about his sexuality, then you can possibly justify changing the section title, maybe even moving it to another part of the article. But since all we have is material relating to rumors about his sexuality while on the show, and his addressing of such, it should remain the way it is. SchutteGod ( talk) 02:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Yo the one part says Digital "s"lbums
Shouldn't you put a bit more stuff that critics were saying? RS: http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/11/23/full-frontal-glambgasm-rob-sheffield-on-adam-lamberts-amas/ - Rolling Stones reacted positively. -- Kyzo76 ( talk) 21:04, 23 November 2009 (UTC) another one: http://watching-tv.ew.com/2009/11/23/adam-lambert-ama-performance/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyzo76 ( talk • contribs) 21:30, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
And it should be edited to read 11 pm eastern, 9 pm pacific time, just to clarify that some viewers WERE within the limits of the FCC's standards. The original edit only says 11 pm eastern and pacific, outside the realm off FCC's normal standards, which is certainly confusing and almost tries to skew the facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squintdrummer ( talk • contribs) 21:17, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I have asked User:Benjiboi to start a discussion here about the section headings, but since he has not I will. Per WP:HEAD: "primary headings are then ==H2==, followed by ===H3===, ====H4====, and so on." The section heading are needed so editors can easily edit each section should they want to. There is also no reason to limit the MOS since it is not overly long now and the difference only makes it three lines shorter.
Two different editors have reversed you on here and per WP:BRD, you should have discussed this instead of reverting at least five times recently with different edit summaries. Unless there is a consensus here that the section heading are unneeded or against MOS they should stay in the article. Aspects ( talk) 01:30, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
He is #3 Man of the Year by MTV ( http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628412/20091216/story.jhtml), Time's person who mattered this year ( http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1946375_1946333_1946329,00.html#ixzz0ZsBND2NC), #3 in Twitter Trending Topics of 2009 ( http://adamlamberttv.blogspot.com/2009/12/adam-lambert-is-3-in-twitter-trending.html), and Rolling Stone's #1 artist of the year ( http://adamlamberttv.blogspot.com/2009/12/rolling-stone-top-artists-of-2009-adam.html). All of this matters because he was in a tough competition but still made great results.-- 83.131.203.211 ( talk) 19:44, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Adam is nominated for a GLAAD award - Outstanding Music Artist. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2T3fS0kT2vc/S01jldu993I/AAAAAAAAD_4/uMgWbOxbSms/s1600-h/11.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.40.178 ( talk) 11:09, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Note 1 mentions Clay Aiken and Will Young as past contestants on idol shows who came out as gay after the fact. It might be worth mentioning in the note that Theo Tams, who won Canadian Idol in 2008 was openly gay during the time he was on the show. In fact (for those who might be interested), he first referenced his sexuality during the first live show performance (the top 24 semi-finals). When asked why he chose the song " Apologize" by OneRepublic he said, "I'd been through a relationship where I had to tell him 'it's too late to apologize.'" 142.68.46.30 ( talk) 15:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Adam is NOT the first openly gay musician to be signed to a major label. I think people are forgetting about ERASURE, who are also openly gay, and adam was in diapers when they signed their contract with a major record label, so that is untrue. I think even the Pet Shop Boys are openly gay and they are on a major label. Sorry to disappoint, but Adam's not the first! Even though I love him! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.241.18 ( talk) 23:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Erasure was a group with one gay member. Pet Shop Boy was not openly gay at the onset of their career. There were a lot of gay musical acts in the eighties. But no one really talked openly about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Susann72 ( talk • contribs) 11:52, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Adam paving the way as a gay singer in America?? What am I missing here? Has anyone heard of Liberace? Johny Mathis? Freddie Mercury? Elton John? Clay Aiken? George Michael? Boy George? K.D. Lang? Prince? Melissa Ethridge? Tracy Chapman? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.214.36.41 ( talk) 01:55, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
It's being removed Adam Lambert's situation is by no means unique. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.72.220 ( talk) 18:30, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Adam Lambert's first official solo concert was held February 27th, 2010 at Fantasy Springs Resort and Casino in Indio, CA. He performed to a sellout crowd of 3,500 fans from around the world, including Thailand, Australia, Canada and Mexico. [1] Dougburr ( talk) 23:44, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Add it. Nowyouseeme - TALK 02:20, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
The single For Your Entertainment has reached #3 in Japan's Billboard Hot 100. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bestbuy99 ( talk • contribs) 15:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Why does this page redirect to itself? ~Rayvn 13:56, 17 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RayvnEQ ( talk • contribs)
I'm proposing that the discography section be merged into a new article, Adam Lambert discography. The main page is getting very long, and this will only get larger as time moves on as well. EnDaLeCoMpLeX ( talk) 19:53, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}} I have split the discography into a new page ( Adam Lambert discography). Please reflect this in the article. Thanks. KingOfTheMedia ( talk) 23:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
New album called Remixed is now available. Respective pages should probably be reflected on this page, discography page, and have its own.
Source: http://www.sonymusicdigital.com/adam-lambert/pages/4439408/ 12.162.122.5 ( talk) 19:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
WTF? Adam was never in a band like this. The idea is right, but the band wasn't named something so violent and they certainly weren't deathcore. MotherFerginPrincess ( talk) 14:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
I can't be bothered to make an account and the page is semi-protected, but a comment in the page says that Lambert sung Gary Jules' Mad World in American Idol. This is incorrect; the Tears for Fears cover of Mad World was by Michael Andrews, with vocals by Gary Jules for the film Donnie Darko, of which Michael made the score. 70.75.183.12 ( talk) 00:39, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}} adam also has a brother called Neil Lambert which i think should be mentioned on wiki for adam lambert info. If you do this then thank you very much!
from a devote adam mitchel lambert fan
92.3.244.95 ( talk) 20:45, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
As evidenced by his own Wikipedia entry, Malcolm Weisford is the producer of the early demo tracks from which Adam Lambert now distances himself. It seems likely that Weisford himself inserted the sentence about having guided Lambert's career; this sentence should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.156.138.2 ( talk) 18:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Monte Pittman - lead guitar Tommy Joe Ratliff - bass Longineu W. Parsons III - drums Camila Grey - keyboards
Adam has expressed a desire to have his band members play on his next album. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherrysplash ( talk • contribs) 19:05, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
"He is the first openly gay mainstream pop artist to launch a career on a major label in America" This sentence doesn't make sense. Firstly there's plenty of gay mainstream pop artists in the US (Elton John, George Michael, Michael Stipe, Jake Shears, Lance Bass). Secondly if it implies that he was first to be openly gay before he launched his career then it is also false as he refused to declare his sexuality until after the show (and after he was "launched" into the public sphere): http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1613628/20090610/story.jhtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.132.241.6 ( talk) 12:23, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Boy is in love. :D
guess that doesnt rate a mention tho nothing means anything without connection. :( —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kallen.adams ( talk • contribs) 14:34, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
"I suffered from a little bit of an ugly-duckling complex in my early 20s. When I was in high school I was 250 pounds and that creates some stuff ... some body image stuff, some confidence issues. And I got a lot of my confidence from the validation I got as a performer." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geemoney713 ( talk • contribs) 17:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
{{ edit semi-protected}} in the lead, "pop artist" should be "pop artists" given the grammar in context. thanks. 75.202.151.159 ( talk) 18:13, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Done ~~ Lothar von Richthofen ( talk) 18:16, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
^ 74 "Justin Bieber Wins Big At Teen Choice Awards".
Link takes reader to an article discussing Justin Bieber
This added like article number 74 takes the reader to an article that discusses Justin Beider vs Adam Lambert and therefore should not be listed on Adam Lambert but Justin Beider Ovationimpact ( talk) 02:43, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
In Adam's other media you should 2009-10: General Hospital Unknown episodes - "Mad World" — Preceding unsigned comment added by HerMostSecretiveObsessions ( talk • contribs) 22:24, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
His ancestry on father's side is Scandinavian (especially Norwegian). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG_gRia_MRE Add this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.179.82.178 ( talk) 10:36, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
to include GlamNation DVD/CD release, preferably with credits Springtimeflowers ( talk) 20:17, 23 March 2011 (UTC)springtimeflowers more details about the tour need to be added, not just the DVD/CD release. he did more than 110 shows internationally, most of them sold out. he was the first or only idol contestant of any kind (winner or not) to headline a world tour right after his first CD release. there are no sales figures for the cd/dvd included (last known are from adam.official 8/31/11 putting it at 41,000. 50,000 is RIAA standard for gold on a DVD/long form music {{User:Jordan200/talk/11/11]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordan200 ( talk • contribs) 03:47, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Adam Lambert's Second CD is now set to release Early 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.74.169.140 ( talk) 07:56, 16 September 2011 (UTC) Lambert has stated the first single from the sophomore album will drop in October-ish, then November. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordan200 ( talk • contribs) 04:13, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
How exactly is Lambert a singer-songwriter? Based on the page for For Your Entertainment, he has barely 4 credits to his name and they are all minimal since he listed towards the end of each of the songs he's credited in.
98.109.0.244 ( talk) 01:51, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
What does it matter if he has 4 credits or 4,000 credits as a songwriter? If a person writes even just one song, that person is a songwriter. He may have written hundreds of songs that we aren't even aware of. But because we may not know about them doesn't discount the fact that Adam did, in fact, write the songs. If you wrote a ton of poetry and only published say 4 of your poems, does that discount your work? Does that mean you aren't a poet? Where is the rule that shows where a certain number of songs must be written solely by a person for that person to be regarded as a songwriter? And name placement is irrelevant to the argument of whether or not he is a songwriter. His name is credited on the song - he is a songwriter. Using the poetry analogy again. Say you and 4 friends wrote a poem and you only contributed a few lines to that poem so your name is last in the credits. You get credit for what you, a poet, DID write. Do you see what I mean? Give credit where credit is due. :) YummyLambert ( talk) 06:32, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
i think he should be considered a songwriter. adam has said he will be writing on nearly all the tracks for the 2012 release. he also wrote for citizen vein -- a pre-idol band whose music was released and marketed under his name (and over his objections) before FYE; and is about to be released for a second time (again, preceding his official RCA release, which is slated for spring 2012). {{User:Jordan200 talk]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordan200 ( talk • contribs) 03:58, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Actually he has been also credited with writing and recording 10 songs while with his band TCV which have not yet been released but are available for free on the internet. And with all the information available from current musician/songwriters who have been working with Adam on his second album and have mentioned being impressed with his songwriting skills, so I don't know why this is even still being discussed. Obviously when his new album is released this will never be brought up again, but it needs to be dropped now. -- Omgoodnessme ( talk) 07:37, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
The real question is how is he an actor? I don't see any sources. -- QuickEditor ( talk) 04:29, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
read the wiki article is right! he acted in a number of professional productions including Ten Commandments, a European touring company of Hair and Wicked in LA. His theatrical background is absolutely relevant to how he presented himself and his music on Idol, in his debut cd (FYE) and in the creation of the Glam Nation Tour, which has the structure and feel of a show jordan200 talk
Hi! So, just for a public FYI, I have changed the wording "is dating [Sauli Koskinen]" to "has been rumored to date" for quite a many times. None of those two have said "yes, I am dating Adam/Sauli" according to those sources, so it is all rumors until either one mentions any name. IMHO, considering the actual wordings of the sources, this should not even be up for discussion. -- Frous ( talk) 15:48, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I made a change here to "in a relationship with" now that Adam has confirmed this in The Advocate interview outtakes posted by The Advocate editor. Problem is my link is not working to here http://news.advocate.com/post/11735531870/reinventing-adam-lambert-the-outtakes Would someone check this and let me know where I went wrong and/or correct [72] for me. Thanks -- Omgoodnessme ( talk) 02:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC) oops.... I found my mistake. It works now -- Omgoodnessme ( talk) 03:33, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
link #3 "Adam Lambert, the new face of glam rock, Malcolm Mackenzie, The Times, 4 February 2010." needs to be fixed. It links to the Times current front page - link is broken to the article as it is now too old to be archived online. A copy of the article can be still be found here: http://adam-lambert.org/adam-lambert-the-new-face-of-glam-rock-times-online/ ( Omgoodnessme ( talk) 23:16, 1 November 2011 (UTC))
Link #41 ""The ultimate 'American Idol' power ranking". The Times. 2009-05-21. Retrieved 2010-03-24." broken because article is too old to still be archived online. Only copy of article I can find at the moment is in forum here http://idolforums.com/index.php?showtopic=651236 ( Omgoodnessme ( talk) 23:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC))
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Under the subsection "Awards and Nominations," please add that the album "For Your Entertainment" won International Modern Pop/Rock Album of the Year at the 2011 Fonogram - Hungarian Music Awards.
Sources: 1) Link to the Fonogram website listing the 2011 winners of each category: http://www.fonogram.hu/?menu=nyertesek 2) Also a link to a news article on Adam's official website (maintained by his label) mentioning the award win: http://www.adamofficial.com/us/news/hungarian-award-adam Stsung ( talk) 22:34, 2 November 2011 (UTC) Edit completed ( Omgoodnessme ( talk) 02:25, 3 November 2011 (UTC))
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Belfast, Northern Ireland
85.211.220.50 ( talk) 22:17, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
In the "Advocacy" Section, in the paragraph about his water charity, it says "birthdwhatay". This needs to be changed to "birthday". ( 94.198.190.2 ( talk) 15:55, 16 December 2011 (UTC))
To all who may be interested, I'm currently reworking this article (see User:Stephenjamesx/Adam Lambert) in the hope that I can further its potential for GA status. Stephenjamesx ( talk) 20:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Stephen there are many of us interested, but i think it's fair to say that the BOLD edit you presented yesterday really crossed the line. you deleted massive amounts of data, reverted controversial and carefully worded sentences and phrases, re-organized in your own fashion, changed the pictures etc. i can see that you gave a warning, but how is that sufficient justification for what you did? i think we would appreciate it if you might give a statement as to your overall intent (beyond that you intend to improve the page; i certainly realize it has redundancies and could be a lot better organized, for e.g.). IMO it's impossible to work around (i began to try) or add to right now. much that you removed, i see you have stated, you will be adding back in. so we wait and guess? there are things i want to update but why would i touch the page when you might just wipe out (even) the entire section i choose to write in? out of consideration to other users, perhaps you could present your edits in smaller chunks and give an explanation/justification alongside. why, for example, did you add in a picture with monte? or with alison and kris. you added and deleted in a fashion that to me is not neutral. since you changed not just the organization of the entries, but also many of the entries themselves, i would suggest that demonstrates a particular POV. i'd love to choose what to say/which facts in a life to include or not -- but in the 2 months or so that i (along with a few that i work in tandem with) have been writing on adam's page, i have tried to be respectful of the work that came before. i thought that was at least as important as being bold on wiki. ( Jordan200 ( talk) 05:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC))
Stephen - when I first saw you were reworking the Lambert article I was really pleased as it certainly needs improvement. But I certainly did not expect you to sweep in and make major edits in such large increments with no explanation of deletes, additions, edits, moves, etc other than you are making it better and promise to put back deletions later - does this mean ALL deletions? I thought you were merely in the process of working things out and would add in an appropriate manner, perhaps similar to how you handled this. I have had a number of interested users contact me because important material they worked on or entered recently has vanished and other entries were added or moved that made no sense. I certainly understand BOLD and know that all these entries were made in good faith, but you need to be careful in doing this in such huge blocks without any explanation, that it's impossible to follow or even know where to begin to make sense of it or to fix some of the problems. A number of users have been laboring on this article, not all autoconfirmed and making the actual edits. You are not the only interested user trying to make positive changes to this page. I went in to revert 2 of your major entries and ask that they be entered in smaller increments with explanations, but arrived too late as minor corrections had already been made so a revert was not possible, and everyone is now stuck with time consuming manual edits of massive amounts of material dropped into just a few edits. I have deleted 3 of the pics and will start a category to cover this here. I also will start one for Personal life category as there have been many questions surrounding this because you put it under a "Sexuality" sub-category. Also please note that I commented in your Talk twice now asking you to please correct your insufficient citations and dead links - have you not seen this? I don't mean for all of this to sound negative as your work on Lambert's page is very much appreciated - it's just how you went about it that has made things very difficult for other users involved in the process. Would inviting users to comment in Talk for your Lambert article be an appropriate solution in heading off future problems? or will you make edits in smaller increments with explanations in the summaries in the future? Your comments on this are appreciated. ( Omgoodnessme ( talk) 09:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC))
I am posting this here rather than on the Talk page of Stephenjamesx because too many other users have voiced their concern over these and challenged the selection. I'm hopeful that other users will weigh in on this since they have expressed their opinions to me. In response to those comments I deleted 3 pictures added by Stephenjamesx for reasons noted in the summaries. Adding any picture simply for the sake of having pics in the article without concern of whether they are of importance or enhance the article is not helpful. If pictures in these areas would be good, please pick more appropriate ones. In my opinion no one is interested in what Lambert's high school looked like and it certainly does not add to his biography - are we that desperate for pics that anything will do? Re AI pic: I think a picture of Adam performing a song during his AI experience would enhance the AI category, since this is his biography. Readers can go to AI Season8 Wiki or individual wiki biographies of Allen and Iraheta if they want pics of them - you certainly won't see a pic of Adam on their wikis. Readers come to Lambert's wiki to read about him and see pictures of him. Re the GNT pic with Monte - Adam has made it clear many times that he is a solo artist and not a frontman for a band (recently on Twitter he said "I'm my OWN frontman"). This is not Monte Pittman's biography and he was never exclusively Lambert's guitarist. Monte is also guitarist for Madonna, but you won't see his pic on her page because she is a solo artist. I don't ever see other solo artists with pics of them with a backup band member, especially if they are hired for one gig only (ie GNT). If it is difficult to find a great pic of just Adam performing on stage during GNT, please advise here and perhaps Lee Cherry who has taken many amazing GNT photos would provide one that could be used - he is easy to contact.
There have also been questions as to why other pictures were replaced without any explanation. I know wiki is not a democracy and anyone can make edits, but this process involves an summary explanation for the edit, especially when there are so many at one time. ( Omgoodnessme ( talk) 10:19, 22 January 2012 (UTC))
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Your "not reliable" analysis is little more than your own opinion. The people at this page can judge the relative merit of your claims of "original research." Apparently you will have a response either dismissing the source, or characterizing the mention of "performance order" in whatever sources I post, so (for real, this time), I'll leave you to it. But please do not attempt to remove the columns again without consensus here to do so. I'm not unwatching this page, just disengaging from this unproductive exchange. Interestingly, some of the sources you casually dismiss as "not reliable" are currently cited in the article. Unit Anode 02:45, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Outdent. You can stop implying I've made my "intractibility very clear", indeed I've asked for reliable sourcing to lead the way and the lack of any that supports your broad assertions would indicate my concerns are correct. The only thing these sources supports in this debate is that teh last position has been termed the "pimp spot" or "pimp slot" and some fans feel it garners more votes. No evidence that the order number for all the other spots affects anything and no evidence that the order number actually affects anything has been presented. I'm eager to be proven wrong on this so we can explain to our readers why this information is relevant and should be a part of the article. If not it should go. -- Banjeboi 21:19, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Just weighing in here, the performance order is not original research by any means. Its a fact and should be treated as such. What Banjeboi is challenging is the notability of the info. All (or at least most) of the sources that have been provided have been blogs, which are not acceptable reliable sources because they do constitute as original research of a non-established source. The simple fact that Lambert performed fifth in Top 11 week is a simple fact that could be verified even with citing the primary source, just a plot of a book, or a summary of a TV episode. The notability of the information is in question though. Why does it matter that he performed in a certain order and the sources provided only find that there might be a correlation between performance order and result. But there isn't anything specific about Lambert performing in a certain order affecting his result. BOVINEBOY2008 02:25, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Somebody posted that the album is going to be released on November 17th but there's no citation. Is this fact true? If it is, please put the citation and if you're certain it's not, delete it. -- Kyzo76 ( talk) 19:55, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I think it would be helpful to add a link to the article "American Idols Live! Tour 2009" somewhere in this article. Perhaps in the 'post idol' category? Example: As one of the Top 10 contestants of American Idol, Adam Lambert performed in the nationwide concert tour "American Idols Live! Tour 2009" from July to September 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.171.157.201 ( talk) 23:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if this is important enough to merit inclusion or has reliable sources, but I just wanted to put out there that it exists. From http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1485108/ and http://www.rockstarweekly.com/content/view/925/149/ he's supposedly going to be in a movie about the Zodiac Show. Snood199 ( talk) 20:31, 24 September 2009 (UTC) (I forgot to sign earlier)
Adam confirmed this won't be his single. It should be deleted from the singles table!-- 78.2.6.234 ( talk) 19:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I would like to point out that it is no longer summer and HiFi has not released the CD nor has released any other statements since the end of June. Therefore, I'm just going to assume they're not releasing it and delete extraneous information of including OWTS off the discography. Kyuu ( talk) 05:37, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
I would like to just say, Adam Lambert should get out of the music business. What he does on stage is not entertainment, unless you want to see pornagraphy. A new low in the entertainment, and I use the work loosely, industry. That's what happens when the talent pool is so small. I will no longer watch ABC, FOX (American Idol). Have a wonderful life singing and dancing in smoke filled rooms that offer lap dances for entertainment.
Should someone write that Adam is no. 1 at Amazon?-- 78.2.16.8 ( talk) 13:47, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Should Adam Lambert's style really be called glam rock or experimental rock? This citation suggets Alternative rock, musical theater and pop idol as genres. Listening to his Lambert's music, it doesn't seem to follow the definitions of the genre from these sources [1]. Can we have this corrected? Andrzejbanas ( talk) 06:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
There seem to be a great many eager editors (mostly unregistered IPs) who keep trying to change the title to "Personal Life." As it is, the section I feel is accurately titled, since it is devoted to rumors about his sexuality that came out during and after his stint in AI. (Note its placing in the article, under the "American Idol" heading; it is addressing a controversy that emerged while he was on the show.) If people want to start an actual Personal Life section, find other material besides rumors about his sexuality, then you can possibly justify changing the section title, maybe even moving it to another part of the article. But since all we have is material relating to rumors about his sexuality while on the show, and his addressing of such, it should remain the way it is. SchutteGod ( talk) 02:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Yo the one part says Digital "s"lbums
Shouldn't you put a bit more stuff that critics were saying? RS: http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/11/23/full-frontal-glambgasm-rob-sheffield-on-adam-lamberts-amas/ - Rolling Stones reacted positively. -- Kyzo76 ( talk) 21:04, 23 November 2009 (UTC) another one: http://watching-tv.ew.com/2009/11/23/adam-lambert-ama-performance/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyzo76 ( talk • contribs) 21:30, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
And it should be edited to read 11 pm eastern, 9 pm pacific time, just to clarify that some viewers WERE within the limits of the FCC's standards. The original edit only says 11 pm eastern and pacific, outside the realm off FCC's normal standards, which is certainly confusing and almost tries to skew the facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squintdrummer ( talk • contribs) 21:17, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I have asked User:Benjiboi to start a discussion here about the section headings, but since he has not I will. Per WP:HEAD: "primary headings are then ==H2==, followed by ===H3===, ====H4====, and so on." The section heading are needed so editors can easily edit each section should they want to. There is also no reason to limit the MOS since it is not overly long now and the difference only makes it three lines shorter.
Two different editors have reversed you on here and per WP:BRD, you should have discussed this instead of reverting at least five times recently with different edit summaries. Unless there is a consensus here that the section heading are unneeded or against MOS they should stay in the article. Aspects ( talk) 01:30, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
He is #3 Man of the Year by MTV ( http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628412/20091216/story.jhtml), Time's person who mattered this year ( http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1946375_1946333_1946329,00.html#ixzz0ZsBND2NC), #3 in Twitter Trending Topics of 2009 ( http://adamlamberttv.blogspot.com/2009/12/adam-lambert-is-3-in-twitter-trending.html), and Rolling Stone's #1 artist of the year ( http://adamlamberttv.blogspot.com/2009/12/rolling-stone-top-artists-of-2009-adam.html). All of this matters because he was in a tough competition but still made great results.-- 83.131.203.211 ( talk) 19:44, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Adam is nominated for a GLAAD award - Outstanding Music Artist. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2T3fS0kT2vc/S01jldu993I/AAAAAAAAD_4/uMgWbOxbSms/s1600-h/11.png —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.40.178 ( talk) 11:09, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Note 1 mentions Clay Aiken and Will Young as past contestants on idol shows who came out as gay after the fact. It might be worth mentioning in the note that Theo Tams, who won Canadian Idol in 2008 was openly gay during the time he was on the show. In fact (for those who might be interested), he first referenced his sexuality during the first live show performance (the top 24 semi-finals). When asked why he chose the song " Apologize" by OneRepublic he said, "I'd been through a relationship where I had to tell him 'it's too late to apologize.'" 142.68.46.30 ( talk) 15:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Adam is NOT the first openly gay musician to be signed to a major label. I think people are forgetting about ERASURE, who are also openly gay, and adam was in diapers when they signed their contract with a major record label, so that is untrue. I think even the Pet Shop Boys are openly gay and they are on a major label. Sorry to disappoint, but Adam's not the first! Even though I love him! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.241.18 ( talk) 23:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Erasure was a group with one gay member. Pet Shop Boy was not openly gay at the onset of their career. There were a lot of gay musical acts in the eighties. But no one really talked openly about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Susann72 ( talk • contribs) 11:52, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Adam paving the way as a gay singer in America?? What am I missing here? Has anyone heard of Liberace? Johny Mathis? Freddie Mercury? Elton John? Clay Aiken? George Michael? Boy George? K.D. Lang? Prince? Melissa Ethridge? Tracy Chapman? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.214.36.41 ( talk) 01:55, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
It's being removed Adam Lambert's situation is by no means unique. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.72.220 ( talk) 18:30, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Adam Lambert's first official solo concert was held February 27th, 2010 at Fantasy Springs Resort and Casino in Indio, CA. He performed to a sellout crowd of 3,500 fans from around the world, including Thailand, Australia, Canada and Mexico. [1] Dougburr ( talk) 23:44, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Add it. Nowyouseeme - TALK 02:20, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
The single For Your Entertainment has reached #3 in Japan's Billboard Hot 100. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bestbuy99 ( talk • contribs) 15:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Why does this page redirect to itself? ~Rayvn 13:56, 17 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RayvnEQ ( talk • contribs)
I'm proposing that the discography section be merged into a new article, Adam Lambert discography. The main page is getting very long, and this will only get larger as time moves on as well. EnDaLeCoMpLeX ( talk) 19:53, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}} I have split the discography into a new page ( Adam Lambert discography). Please reflect this in the article. Thanks. KingOfTheMedia ( talk) 23:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
New album called Remixed is now available. Respective pages should probably be reflected on this page, discography page, and have its own.
Source: http://www.sonymusicdigital.com/adam-lambert/pages/4439408/ 12.162.122.5 ( talk) 19:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
WTF? Adam was never in a band like this. The idea is right, but the band wasn't named something so violent and they certainly weren't deathcore. MotherFerginPrincess ( talk) 14:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
I can't be bothered to make an account and the page is semi-protected, but a comment in the page says that Lambert sung Gary Jules' Mad World in American Idol. This is incorrect; the Tears for Fears cover of Mad World was by Michael Andrews, with vocals by Gary Jules for the film Donnie Darko, of which Michael made the score. 70.75.183.12 ( talk) 00:39, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}} adam also has a brother called Neil Lambert which i think should be mentioned on wiki for adam lambert info. If you do this then thank you very much!
from a devote adam mitchel lambert fan
92.3.244.95 ( talk) 20:45, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
As evidenced by his own Wikipedia entry, Malcolm Weisford is the producer of the early demo tracks from which Adam Lambert now distances himself. It seems likely that Weisford himself inserted the sentence about having guided Lambert's career; this sentence should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.156.138.2 ( talk) 18:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Monte Pittman - lead guitar Tommy Joe Ratliff - bass Longineu W. Parsons III - drums Camila Grey - keyboards
Adam has expressed a desire to have his band members play on his next album. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherrysplash ( talk • contribs) 19:05, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
"He is the first openly gay mainstream pop artist to launch a career on a major label in America" This sentence doesn't make sense. Firstly there's plenty of gay mainstream pop artists in the US (Elton John, George Michael, Michael Stipe, Jake Shears, Lance Bass). Secondly if it implies that he was first to be openly gay before he launched his career then it is also false as he refused to declare his sexuality until after the show (and after he was "launched" into the public sphere): http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1613628/20090610/story.jhtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.132.241.6 ( talk) 12:23, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Boy is in love. :D
guess that doesnt rate a mention tho nothing means anything without connection. :( —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kallen.adams ( talk • contribs) 14:34, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
"I suffered from a little bit of an ugly-duckling complex in my early 20s. When I was in high school I was 250 pounds and that creates some stuff ... some body image stuff, some confidence issues. And I got a lot of my confidence from the validation I got as a performer." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geemoney713 ( talk • contribs) 17:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
{{ edit semi-protected}} in the lead, "pop artist" should be "pop artists" given the grammar in context. thanks. 75.202.151.159 ( talk) 18:13, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Done ~~ Lothar von Richthofen ( talk) 18:16, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
^ 74 "Justin Bieber Wins Big At Teen Choice Awards".
Link takes reader to an article discussing Justin Bieber
This added like article number 74 takes the reader to an article that discusses Justin Beider vs Adam Lambert and therefore should not be listed on Adam Lambert but Justin Beider Ovationimpact ( talk) 02:43, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
In Adam's other media you should 2009-10: General Hospital Unknown episodes - "Mad World" — Preceding unsigned comment added by HerMostSecretiveObsessions ( talk • contribs) 22:24, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
His ancestry on father's side is Scandinavian (especially Norwegian). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG_gRia_MRE Add this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.179.82.178 ( talk) 10:36, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
to include GlamNation DVD/CD release, preferably with credits Springtimeflowers ( talk) 20:17, 23 March 2011 (UTC)springtimeflowers more details about the tour need to be added, not just the DVD/CD release. he did more than 110 shows internationally, most of them sold out. he was the first or only idol contestant of any kind (winner or not) to headline a world tour right after his first CD release. there are no sales figures for the cd/dvd included (last known are from adam.official 8/31/11 putting it at 41,000. 50,000 is RIAA standard for gold on a DVD/long form music {{User:Jordan200/talk/11/11]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordan200 ( talk • contribs) 03:47, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Adam Lambert's Second CD is now set to release Early 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.74.169.140 ( talk) 07:56, 16 September 2011 (UTC) Lambert has stated the first single from the sophomore album will drop in October-ish, then November. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordan200 ( talk • contribs) 04:13, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
How exactly is Lambert a singer-songwriter? Based on the page for For Your Entertainment, he has barely 4 credits to his name and they are all minimal since he listed towards the end of each of the songs he's credited in.
98.109.0.244 ( talk) 01:51, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
What does it matter if he has 4 credits or 4,000 credits as a songwriter? If a person writes even just one song, that person is a songwriter. He may have written hundreds of songs that we aren't even aware of. But because we may not know about them doesn't discount the fact that Adam did, in fact, write the songs. If you wrote a ton of poetry and only published say 4 of your poems, does that discount your work? Does that mean you aren't a poet? Where is the rule that shows where a certain number of songs must be written solely by a person for that person to be regarded as a songwriter? And name placement is irrelevant to the argument of whether or not he is a songwriter. His name is credited on the song - he is a songwriter. Using the poetry analogy again. Say you and 4 friends wrote a poem and you only contributed a few lines to that poem so your name is last in the credits. You get credit for what you, a poet, DID write. Do you see what I mean? Give credit where credit is due. :) YummyLambert ( talk) 06:32, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
i think he should be considered a songwriter. adam has said he will be writing on nearly all the tracks for the 2012 release. he also wrote for citizen vein -- a pre-idol band whose music was released and marketed under his name (and over his objections) before FYE; and is about to be released for a second time (again, preceding his official RCA release, which is slated for spring 2012). {{User:Jordan200 talk]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordan200 ( talk • contribs) 03:58, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Actually he has been also credited with writing and recording 10 songs while with his band TCV which have not yet been released but are available for free on the internet. And with all the information available from current musician/songwriters who have been working with Adam on his second album and have mentioned being impressed with his songwriting skills, so I don't know why this is even still being discussed. Obviously when his new album is released this will never be brought up again, but it needs to be dropped now. -- Omgoodnessme ( talk) 07:37, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
The real question is how is he an actor? I don't see any sources. -- QuickEditor ( talk) 04:29, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
read the wiki article is right! he acted in a number of professional productions including Ten Commandments, a European touring company of Hair and Wicked in LA. His theatrical background is absolutely relevant to how he presented himself and his music on Idol, in his debut cd (FYE) and in the creation of the Glam Nation Tour, which has the structure and feel of a show jordan200 talk
Hi! So, just for a public FYI, I have changed the wording "is dating [Sauli Koskinen]" to "has been rumored to date" for quite a many times. None of those two have said "yes, I am dating Adam/Sauli" according to those sources, so it is all rumors until either one mentions any name. IMHO, considering the actual wordings of the sources, this should not even be up for discussion. -- Frous ( talk) 15:48, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I made a change here to "in a relationship with" now that Adam has confirmed this in The Advocate interview outtakes posted by The Advocate editor. Problem is my link is not working to here http://news.advocate.com/post/11735531870/reinventing-adam-lambert-the-outtakes Would someone check this and let me know where I went wrong and/or correct [72] for me. Thanks -- Omgoodnessme ( talk) 02:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC) oops.... I found my mistake. It works now -- Omgoodnessme ( talk) 03:33, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
link #3 "Adam Lambert, the new face of glam rock, Malcolm Mackenzie, The Times, 4 February 2010." needs to be fixed. It links to the Times current front page - link is broken to the article as it is now too old to be archived online. A copy of the article can be still be found here: http://adam-lambert.org/adam-lambert-the-new-face-of-glam-rock-times-online/ ( Omgoodnessme ( talk) 23:16, 1 November 2011 (UTC))
Link #41 ""The ultimate 'American Idol' power ranking". The Times. 2009-05-21. Retrieved 2010-03-24." broken because article is too old to still be archived online. Only copy of article I can find at the moment is in forum here http://idolforums.com/index.php?showtopic=651236 ( Omgoodnessme ( talk) 23:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC))
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Under the subsection "Awards and Nominations," please add that the album "For Your Entertainment" won International Modern Pop/Rock Album of the Year at the 2011 Fonogram - Hungarian Music Awards.
Sources: 1) Link to the Fonogram website listing the 2011 winners of each category: http://www.fonogram.hu/?menu=nyertesek 2) Also a link to a news article on Adam's official website (maintained by his label) mentioning the award win: http://www.adamofficial.com/us/news/hungarian-award-adam Stsung ( talk) 22:34, 2 November 2011 (UTC) Edit completed ( Omgoodnessme ( talk) 02:25, 3 November 2011 (UTC))
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Belfast, Northern Ireland
85.211.220.50 ( talk) 22:17, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
In the "Advocacy" Section, in the paragraph about his water charity, it says "birthdwhatay". This needs to be changed to "birthday". ( 94.198.190.2 ( talk) 15:55, 16 December 2011 (UTC))
To all who may be interested, I'm currently reworking this article (see User:Stephenjamesx/Adam Lambert) in the hope that I can further its potential for GA status. Stephenjamesx ( talk) 20:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Stephen there are many of us interested, but i think it's fair to say that the BOLD edit you presented yesterday really crossed the line. you deleted massive amounts of data, reverted controversial and carefully worded sentences and phrases, re-organized in your own fashion, changed the pictures etc. i can see that you gave a warning, but how is that sufficient justification for what you did? i think we would appreciate it if you might give a statement as to your overall intent (beyond that you intend to improve the page; i certainly realize it has redundancies and could be a lot better organized, for e.g.). IMO it's impossible to work around (i began to try) or add to right now. much that you removed, i see you have stated, you will be adding back in. so we wait and guess? there are things i want to update but why would i touch the page when you might just wipe out (even) the entire section i choose to write in? out of consideration to other users, perhaps you could present your edits in smaller chunks and give an explanation/justification alongside. why, for example, did you add in a picture with monte? or with alison and kris. you added and deleted in a fashion that to me is not neutral. since you changed not just the organization of the entries, but also many of the entries themselves, i would suggest that demonstrates a particular POV. i'd love to choose what to say/which facts in a life to include or not -- but in the 2 months or so that i (along with a few that i work in tandem with) have been writing on adam's page, i have tried to be respectful of the work that came before. i thought that was at least as important as being bold on wiki. ( Jordan200 ( talk) 05:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC))
Stephen - when I first saw you were reworking the Lambert article I was really pleased as it certainly needs improvement. But I certainly did not expect you to sweep in and make major edits in such large increments with no explanation of deletes, additions, edits, moves, etc other than you are making it better and promise to put back deletions later - does this mean ALL deletions? I thought you were merely in the process of working things out and would add in an appropriate manner, perhaps similar to how you handled this. I have had a number of interested users contact me because important material they worked on or entered recently has vanished and other entries were added or moved that made no sense. I certainly understand BOLD and know that all these entries were made in good faith, but you need to be careful in doing this in such huge blocks without any explanation, that it's impossible to follow or even know where to begin to make sense of it or to fix some of the problems. A number of users have been laboring on this article, not all autoconfirmed and making the actual edits. You are not the only interested user trying to make positive changes to this page. I went in to revert 2 of your major entries and ask that they be entered in smaller increments with explanations, but arrived too late as minor corrections had already been made so a revert was not possible, and everyone is now stuck with time consuming manual edits of massive amounts of material dropped into just a few edits. I have deleted 3 of the pics and will start a category to cover this here. I also will start one for Personal life category as there have been many questions surrounding this because you put it under a "Sexuality" sub-category. Also please note that I commented in your Talk twice now asking you to please correct your insufficient citations and dead links - have you not seen this? I don't mean for all of this to sound negative as your work on Lambert's page is very much appreciated - it's just how you went about it that has made things very difficult for other users involved in the process. Would inviting users to comment in Talk for your Lambert article be an appropriate solution in heading off future problems? or will you make edits in smaller increments with explanations in the summaries in the future? Your comments on this are appreciated. ( Omgoodnessme ( talk) 09:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC))
I am posting this here rather than on the Talk page of Stephenjamesx because too many other users have voiced their concern over these and challenged the selection. I'm hopeful that other users will weigh in on this since they have expressed their opinions to me. In response to those comments I deleted 3 pictures added by Stephenjamesx for reasons noted in the summaries. Adding any picture simply for the sake of having pics in the article without concern of whether they are of importance or enhance the article is not helpful. If pictures in these areas would be good, please pick more appropriate ones. In my opinion no one is interested in what Lambert's high school looked like and it certainly does not add to his biography - are we that desperate for pics that anything will do? Re AI pic: I think a picture of Adam performing a song during his AI experience would enhance the AI category, since this is his biography. Readers can go to AI Season8 Wiki or individual wiki biographies of Allen and Iraheta if they want pics of them - you certainly won't see a pic of Adam on their wikis. Readers come to Lambert's wiki to read about him and see pictures of him. Re the GNT pic with Monte - Adam has made it clear many times that he is a solo artist and not a frontman for a band (recently on Twitter he said "I'm my OWN frontman"). This is not Monte Pittman's biography and he was never exclusively Lambert's guitarist. Monte is also guitarist for Madonna, but you won't see his pic on her page because she is a solo artist. I don't ever see other solo artists with pics of them with a backup band member, especially if they are hired for one gig only (ie GNT). If it is difficult to find a great pic of just Adam performing on stage during GNT, please advise here and perhaps Lee Cherry who has taken many amazing GNT photos would provide one that could be used - he is easy to contact.
There have also been questions as to why other pictures were replaced without any explanation. I know wiki is not a democracy and anyone can make edits, but this process involves an summary explanation for the edit, especially when there are so many at one time. ( Omgoodnessme ( talk) 10:19, 22 January 2012 (UTC))