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please site your sources. Noldoaran 01:15, Dec 5, 2003 (UTC)
Joseph Smith, Jr., explicitly and openly taught a doctrine of Eloheim by at least the early 1840s which is the foundation upon which the Adam-God doctrine rests. This doctrine was that the Grand Council of the Gods was the meaning of the word Eloheim. Today, the Latter-day Saints teach 'Elohim is God the Father'. Which, while technically correct, is much less specific than Joseph Smith's more elaborate discourses on the subject. I have typed up exhaustive excerpts from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, Church Historian and tenth President, on this subject in my user page: User:Jizzbug/Mormon. Some of Joseph Smith's material on this matter should rightly be incorporated in this article somehow.
COGDEN - One issue I have with a recent edit is the statement below:
Brigham Young approved (shortly before his death in 1877), and did not record nor write the Endowment ceremony down. Wilford Woodruff was given that task to write it down while president of the Saint George Temple, which was done after the dedication of the temple in April of 1877, a few months after the entry you referenced. The First Presidency felt it too sacred to write anywhere but in the "House of the Lord." Although I am unfamiliar with the journal entry, I'll take a look when I get a chance. Do you have a source where you've seen that? Please provide it in the talk page (or let me know it was your own research).
Also, please correct the statement about Young recording the ceremony and place it in its proper context - was he preparing some statements prior to the standardizations for Woodruff? The journal should shed light on this, because in the context you placed it it seems very odd, based on other comments made by Young about the recording of the Endowment. - Visorstuff 00:31, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
So, is the account an 1892 account recreated as it was 1877, or an actual 1877 account? - Visorstuff 21:02, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The above statement looks like a re-creation of history (or a recollection) in 1892, from what I have been able to find, and therefore the accuracy is in question in light of other historical documents that Woodruff wrote the entire ceremony down. - Visorstuff 23:37, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I just doubled the size of the article and then edited/re-organized. I also removed a sentence about Young stating that he had the doctrine revealed to him as I could not source it. Although I remember reading it, I must have missed the source. Also, he never presented it as official revelation, and he would have considered all of his beliefs as revealed truths, so that could get somewhat misleading and confusing to the reader. Let's figure out where it is appropriate to put back in. Anyway, am looking for some clean-up/help editing my work. - Visorstuff 23:37, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Look forward to your edits. I loosely believe (please call it a speculation) that Young was meaning something quite different than what he explained, just had a hard time explaining it. I think he meant that like us getting approval from JS (as head of our dispensation) we must get approval from Michael/Adam to go to heaven. In addition, Adam is a god on two accounts - first he is already exalted, like abraham; and second, he was the literal son of god (see luke and matthew's geneaology) but not the only begotton son in the flesh (meaning mortality). Adam was born to God in a celestial body and placed on the earth (hense God was in the garden) and had to choose to be mortal. A God fell (Michael) and a God overcame all (Christ). It took one god to get us into this mess of mortality and one God to get us back out. Both were sons of God (elohim). The Father could not be responsible for either decision, it had to be the sons' decisions. But I digress - I look forward to your edits... - Visorstuff 16:35, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In the section on "The distinction between Father Adam and Father Elohim" it is worth noting that that there is a different view - the word Eloheim was used by Brigham Young to denote a calling of 'head God', and when speaking of the Godhead before this world was formed Brigham seemed to indicate that the Eloheim at that time was Adam's grandfather God, whilst the Jehovah calling was fulfilled by Adam's heavenly Father. The idea of Jehovah being Jesus is a more modern idea, which James E. Talmage popularized - in the early Endowment Jesus had a small part seperate from Jehovah, and Jehovah spoke of Jesus as a seperate being. I'll go through my notes and get the references, before proposing any changes though.
Still trying to plow through my notes, but here is one of Brigham's quotes - "Elohim, Yahovah and Michael were father, son, and grandson. They made this earth and Michael became Adam." (Joseph F. Smith journal, 17 June 1871) Thus infering that Michael is the son of the Jehovah involved in the earth's creation (who of course could not be Jesus if this were true). I think I have a quote somewhere from Lorenzo Snow saying the same thing, I'll keep checking.
This idea was picked up by Bishop Heber Bennion in 1920 (Supplement to Gospel Problems, p. 8-9): "Elohim may signify the Father or Grandfather, or Great Grandfather - God or the Council of Gods, and Jehovah may be applied to any of them in the capacity or relationship of a son ..."
Also the line "Most scholars believe that the few statements about the theory are inadequate to properly understand what was meant by the teachings." needs to be qualified. The only serious scholars (non apologists) who seem to have treated the subject are Buerger and Turner, both of whom concluded that Brigham's teachings unambiguously equated Adam with the Father of our Spirits etc. Even some LDS apologists says that is what Brigham taught, but that it was just an opnion on his part (as pointed out earlier in the article).
Also, there needs to be a section on the quotes attributed to Joseph Smith on this doctrine, and showing Eliza R. Snow's belief in it. I'll work on it.
An example of a few -
The Ultimatum of Human Life
Eliza R. Snow, An Immortal, p. 188-9; Poems of Eliza R. Snow 2:8,9.
She wrote a couple of other poems on the subject, and "Women of Mormondom" (Co-edited by her) speaks of her Hymn of Invocation (the original title of "O My Father" being on this subject.
I deleted the following quote, until we get a citation:
It's very important to know who wrote this, because if it's just some Joe Schmoe on the internet, I'm not sure it's a valuable addition to the article, especially since it's a conclusory statement without an explanation as to why the researcher arrived at this conclusion. COGDEN 18:58, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps we could section it into scholarly, apologetic LDS, apologetic Fundamentalist, Protestant Christian etc.? I've added a few ISBN's, but some of the books don't have them, but are important references because they typify different approaches to the subject. For example - to not include Briney's book would be a tragedy - it is 658 page hardback tome by an LDS Church member containing virtually all the source material on the subject.
I have added some publishers to the list of references, and will try to get the full reference for every publication listed. I agree with the need for the article to be unbiased. Although it is better than most treatments, it still seems a little too weighted towards the 'official LDS Church position' if there is such a thing, and I worry that at the moment it doesn't full represent the views of those serious scholars who have weighed in on this subject, or of those who have alternative views. Some of the presumptions are disputable, whether we personally agree with them or not. I will help where I can though.
I am only just finding the time to catch up on this. I will jot a few notes below on some general criticisms I have about biases shown in the current article -
Apart from Amasa Lyman criticizing the excommunication of someone because they didn't believe in the doctrine - which may just have indicated a disagreement with cutting soemone off solely for their beliefs - what evidence is there that he disagreed with the doctrine?
Need to state when and by whom! Spencer W. Kimball in 1976? If so - that was over 100 years after Brigham first taught it.
This is subjective - Some early (1852-90) Mormons, Fundamentalists, and anti-Mormons would dispute this!
Again subjective!
It is important to note that he referred to it as a doctrine on at least a couple of other occasions. Can cite.
Evidence please? Made other references between 1855-76, as well as being part of 1877 Lecture of the Veil (as already mentioned).
On several occasions he linked a belief in the doctrine to salvation. Can cite.
Need to qualify this - most modern LDS Church members may believe the first sentence, but if we include scholars from other 'Mormon' groups as well as those outside Mormonism then the majority of scholarly treatments on this subject (including some from LDS Church members) conclude that he did teach that Adam was the Father of our spirits, and the father of Jesus Christ. So the above conclusion is untenable.
A little rewording will go towards addressing these issues.
There are many inadequacies in the article also that need to be ultimately addressed -
-- Tobey 21:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
This article is WAY too long and detailed on a topic that is very obscure and speculative. Gospel hobbies. 64.178.145.150 20:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
More suffering just from being a long article, it gave (at least before my recent edit) too much space to detailed arguements against a claim. I put those into their own article in case anybody cares to read them (which seems pretty unlikely for the average reader intersted in the general topic). User:WikiEditi 14 Jan 2007 (UTC)
Mormons cannot claim exclusivity on this topic. Jewish doctrine equating Adam with God -- which is much older than the Brigham Young speculation -- has first dibs. Since the Talmudic commentary has chronological superiority, it appears first in the article. AuntieMormom 09:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The removed text is as follows:
COGDEN 21:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Chopping good-faith edits without discussion, and without even commenting the edit, is bad form. Please be courteous. AuntieMormom 11:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The dubious assertions in this section are uncited. The entire paragraph seems without merit or foundation. Disputants? -- AuntieMormom 16:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a total bastardization of the Adam God theroy. First off, it was always conjecture never a doctrine. In JD it was discussed how Adam siting now with God sharing in his glory. Much like any father and son relationship, a good Father wants to share all he has with his children. Power, wealth, property, knowledge,love, all things. BY was trying to say that Adam had received all things. Nothing more then that. I will research more so I can give better citation then JD. But what is written on the subject is just false. Jodaman7 ( talk) 20:45, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
This entire article reads more like original research than an encyclopedia entry. I did a little cleaning on the intro - and not sure if I stayed with that tone or improved it to be more encyclopedic - anyway - it needs a serious overhaul. -- Tr枚del 21:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I just removed the following sentence: "This unquestioned assumption that this journal entry contains the text of Brigham Young鈥檚 1 February 1877 lecture at the veil is very surprising because there are several reasons to question that assumption." I removed this because it seemed extraneous given the article's prior statement. The article already gives the fact, but this sentence encourages the reader to be surprised when the reader can make that decision herself. Also, the proposal to merge with the verbose arguments about Nuttall's journal should be rejected. Let's just drop that unnecessary distraction from the article. WikiEditi 22:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Inclusion of this article in Category:Mormonism-related controversies is opposed by only one editor so far, with myself, SESmith, CoolhandLuke, and BRMo arguing for inclusion. SESmith originally linked it, and CoolhandLuke proposed its inclusion in the MRC category talk pages. BRMo supported its inclusion on the category deletion proposal (which failed as a proposal).
The introduction itself correctly lists the Adam-God theory as a dispute, and the bulk of the article exists by virtue of its controversy (not its criticism). Anyone familiar with it knows it to be an internal doctrinal controversy based on historical arguments which are interpreted and qualified as to their meanings, which has both apologists and critics involved. Please make your wishes known FOR or AGAINST inclusion in the category. Anon166 21:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following section from the artcile today:
The reasons for doing so it that it is opinion, original research, and seeks to editorialize and draw conclusions that are not in evidence. If it is to be included then it need to be referenced, i.e. a reputable source providing a deduction that this seeks to provide. -- Storm Rider (talk) 02:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Big issues with how this is presented - there is too much interpretation going on in the intro. For example, the intro used this paragraph to illustrate that Young taught that Adam was "the Father" and "the literal Father of Christ:"
Okay, so the interpretation the reader is left with is that Elohim or the Father is Adam, who was married to Eve.
However, the full text of the sermon does not support this. Consider this passage that identifies Michael as the Holy Ghost, and that the literal "Father" of Christ was not the Holy Ghost; ie Adam:
There is just too much leading the reader in this. Thoughts on how to fix? - Visorstuff 22:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I have only heard this concept referred to as a "theory" by Mormon leaders and apologists, which in my mind suggests a minimization of the teachings of Brigham Young on this point since it is so controversial. Why is this article not titled "Adam-God Doctrine"? What is it called by academics (outside of FARMS)? Perhaps Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought has some insight. -- Descartes1979 ( talk) 06:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Brigham young himself only ever referred to it as a doctrine. 140.196.24.2 ( talk) 18:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The mark between "Adam" and "God" in the name of the article was recently changed back to a hyphen from an en dash. My reading of the manual style would suggest that it should be an en dash, since the mark is used to connect two independent names. (Compare WP:HYPHEN with WP:DASH.) Is there some reason I'm not seeing that would indicate that it should be a hyphen? Good Ol鈥檉actory (talk) 03:16, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I went back and read the sources for some of this article and there are some problems with the context:
in the section called Brigham Young's 1852 announcement the article implies that Young was teaching that Adam was the father of Jesus Christ. However in context the comments are an unclear way of pursuing the overall idea of the discourse that God the father got a body from somewhere (presumebly the father of the human family some time in the past) and created the bodies of Adam Eve and Jesus Christ in the same way that his was created. (see particularly the end of p. 50) in that same sentence that the quote from the article comes is this line "from the fruits of the earth the first earthly tabernacles were organized by the father" in reference to the bodies of adam and eve. This article's interpretation would indicate that Adam created his own body before inhabiting it (an idea which goes against a similar mormon theology from the time that only Gods to that type of creating and one has to have a body to be a God).
in addition, the quote that says something like jesus christ was begotten by the same character that was in the garden of eden, earlier on p. 50 Young indicates that at one point all three entities (Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael) were in the garden of eden; and the article also calles Eloheim God the Father or our Father in heaven on several occasions (see p. 49 and 51).
It seems that the whole point of Young's comments is to point out that 1) the Holy Ghost did not father Jesus Christ, 2) that Jesus Christ gets his divinity from the fact that God is his father, and 3) that the bodies that were given to adam and eve were celestial before they consumed the fruit.
After reading some of the previous discussions about this page (about this being an original research article), and not being an expert on this subject it seems to me that the article's author might taking advantage of some poorly worded sentences to establish the basis for this whole idea (again not an expert but given the historical treatment of mormon theology by non-mormons this may simply be a case of distortion by somebody who likes to make hay about some non-standard christian ideas)
Personally I think that someone besides the author (and somebody who has way more time than I do) should review the original sources carefully to see if these citations make sense (it only tooke me a few min of casual browsing to notice these particular inconsistencies). it also might be useful to know what the interpretation of "God" meant at the time given Wilford Woodruff's quotation in the Church's official position section (Woodruff said basicaly the same thing as Young several years after the church had repudiated the doctrine) 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by 137.54.28.191 ( talk) 20:10, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm challenging the inclusion of " Statement by Elden Watson", as it appears not to be a reliable source. This is just some guy's obscure website, which has not been subject to fact-checking or peer review, or any reliable publication process. As such, it would not be directly citable in any academic work without some additional fact-checking legwork. Such material normally cannot be used as a citation for Wikipedia. COGDEN 02:32, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
The website, " http://user.xmission.com/~country/by/100861.htm" linked by this citation no longer exists, nor is readily available in internet archives such as the wayback machine ( http://wayback.archive.org). A casual Google Search turned up no usable result that would match the original source document. If anyone has a new link, it should be updated. Otherwise, this citation should be removed. Nyozekian ( talk) 19:38, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Over the years, this article developed a lot鈥攁nd I mean A LOT鈥攐f commentary in the text which appears to be various users attempting to explain what Young really meant when he preached the doctrine. I have removed most of this stuff鈥攏one of it contained any references, except to the primary material in the Journal of Discourses that is quoted to back up the points being made. If there are reliable sources that have written about such speculation or explanations, then they by all means can be included in the article if properly cited. But this article is not the place for users to advance their own pet theories or explanations which are substantiated only by only their own original research. Good Ol鈥檉actory (talk) 01:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
I am quite familiar with the history of President Young teaching Adam-God. But I have never seen any record of Presidents John Taylor or Wilford Woodruff teaching this doctrine. Yet that is among the first things this article says. Unless someone can give any evidence that these two men did in fact TEACH Adam-God doctrine, this point should be taken out of the article. 鈥斅燩receding unsigned comment added by Erichard ( talk 鈥 contribs) 05:34, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Right. Presidents Taylor and Woodruff must have implicitly accepted Adam-God teachings, but there is no record of them teaching it themselves. If no one changes the article in a while I will eventually make it say something that supports this. 鈥斅燩receding unsigned comment added by Erichard ( talk 鈥 contribs) 17:20, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
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This article has major neutrality issues. Honestly, it reads more like a tract written by an anti-Mormon propagandist than an accurate, balanced account written by a historian. The LDS church never officially accepted this doctrine. In fact, if you look at all of Brigham Young's statements, rather than a few cherry-picked dubious quotes, an honest historian must conclude that Brigham Young himself must not have taken the idea very seriously as he did not teach it much and in fact taught the opposite idea much more often. There are far more recorded instances of Brigham Young teaching the exact opposite (that Adam and God are separate people). However, this article gives a completely different impression. To you Wikipedia writers and editors who have an agenda of trying to make the LDS church look bad: leave your twisting of history to your personal blogs. You don't successfully fool people. You just make people conclude that Wikipedia is unreliable. I will make a few changes to try to fix this article, but it really needs a complete rewrite by a knowledgeable expert without an agenda. 66.171.208.27 ( talk) 16:24, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Under "initial reactions" several lines are quoted from the hymn "We Believe in Our God" with a reference to Sacred Hymns and Spiritual Songs for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1856) p. 375. Page 375 of that book actually contains the hymn "Sons of Michael", which is quoted on the next line of the article, and the lines quoted are nowhere to be found in that book. I suspect the cite should have been on the next line, and another source needs to be found for this hymn.
However, the version I checked is the 14th edition (1871) whereas the 1856 edition is the 11th. It is conceivable that "We Believe in Our God" was omitted from the 12th edition and replaced with "Sons of Michael". (It would have to be the 12th, since the preface to the 14th edition states that no changes were made from the previous 2 editions other than adding some hymns at the end.) If so, it might be related to the "resistance" mentioned in the article, and therefore worth mentioning. Sadly there don't seem to be any (public) copies of the 11th or 12th editions outside the USA so I can't check - for the moment I've left the cite where it is and added a note that "We Believe in Our God" was not in later editions. Pastychomper ( talk) 15:32, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
I appreciate the various permutations and explanations of this doctrine. But none of them currently clarify this:
Who is that speaking to Adam in the Garden? Take this example-
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV - And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
There are several other passages like this set in the Garden. So, if Adam is God (however that is defined) who鈥檚 talking to him? Any clarification welcome. 67.188.70.6 ( talk) 21:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
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please site your sources. Noldoaran 01:15, Dec 5, 2003 (UTC)
Joseph Smith, Jr., explicitly and openly taught a doctrine of Eloheim by at least the early 1840s which is the foundation upon which the Adam-God doctrine rests. This doctrine was that the Grand Council of the Gods was the meaning of the word Eloheim. Today, the Latter-day Saints teach 'Elohim is God the Father'. Which, while technically correct, is much less specific than Joseph Smith's more elaborate discourses on the subject. I have typed up exhaustive excerpts from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, Church Historian and tenth President, on this subject in my user page: User:Jizzbug/Mormon. Some of Joseph Smith's material on this matter should rightly be incorporated in this article somehow.
COGDEN - One issue I have with a recent edit is the statement below:
Brigham Young approved (shortly before his death in 1877), and did not record nor write the Endowment ceremony down. Wilford Woodruff was given that task to write it down while president of the Saint George Temple, which was done after the dedication of the temple in April of 1877, a few months after the entry you referenced. The First Presidency felt it too sacred to write anywhere but in the "House of the Lord." Although I am unfamiliar with the journal entry, I'll take a look when I get a chance. Do you have a source where you've seen that? Please provide it in the talk page (or let me know it was your own research).
Also, please correct the statement about Young recording the ceremony and place it in its proper context - was he preparing some statements prior to the standardizations for Woodruff? The journal should shed light on this, because in the context you placed it it seems very odd, based on other comments made by Young about the recording of the Endowment. - Visorstuff 00:31, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
So, is the account an 1892 account recreated as it was 1877, or an actual 1877 account? - Visorstuff 21:02, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The above statement looks like a re-creation of history (or a recollection) in 1892, from what I have been able to find, and therefore the accuracy is in question in light of other historical documents that Woodruff wrote the entire ceremony down. - Visorstuff 23:37, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I just doubled the size of the article and then edited/re-organized. I also removed a sentence about Young stating that he had the doctrine revealed to him as I could not source it. Although I remember reading it, I must have missed the source. Also, he never presented it as official revelation, and he would have considered all of his beliefs as revealed truths, so that could get somewhat misleading and confusing to the reader. Let's figure out where it is appropriate to put back in. Anyway, am looking for some clean-up/help editing my work. - Visorstuff 23:37, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Look forward to your edits. I loosely believe (please call it a speculation) that Young was meaning something quite different than what he explained, just had a hard time explaining it. I think he meant that like us getting approval from JS (as head of our dispensation) we must get approval from Michael/Adam to go to heaven. In addition, Adam is a god on two accounts - first he is already exalted, like abraham; and second, he was the literal son of god (see luke and matthew's geneaology) but not the only begotton son in the flesh (meaning mortality). Adam was born to God in a celestial body and placed on the earth (hense God was in the garden) and had to choose to be mortal. A God fell (Michael) and a God overcame all (Christ). It took one god to get us into this mess of mortality and one God to get us back out. Both were sons of God (elohim). The Father could not be responsible for either decision, it had to be the sons' decisions. But I digress - I look forward to your edits... - Visorstuff 16:35, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In the section on "The distinction between Father Adam and Father Elohim" it is worth noting that that there is a different view - the word Eloheim was used by Brigham Young to denote a calling of 'head God', and when speaking of the Godhead before this world was formed Brigham seemed to indicate that the Eloheim at that time was Adam's grandfather God, whilst the Jehovah calling was fulfilled by Adam's heavenly Father. The idea of Jehovah being Jesus is a more modern idea, which James E. Talmage popularized - in the early Endowment Jesus had a small part seperate from Jehovah, and Jehovah spoke of Jesus as a seperate being. I'll go through my notes and get the references, before proposing any changes though.
Still trying to plow through my notes, but here is one of Brigham's quotes - "Elohim, Yahovah and Michael were father, son, and grandson. They made this earth and Michael became Adam." (Joseph F. Smith journal, 17 June 1871) Thus infering that Michael is the son of the Jehovah involved in the earth's creation (who of course could not be Jesus if this were true). I think I have a quote somewhere from Lorenzo Snow saying the same thing, I'll keep checking.
This idea was picked up by Bishop Heber Bennion in 1920 (Supplement to Gospel Problems, p. 8-9): "Elohim may signify the Father or Grandfather, or Great Grandfather - God or the Council of Gods, and Jehovah may be applied to any of them in the capacity or relationship of a son ..."
Also the line "Most scholars believe that the few statements about the theory are inadequate to properly understand what was meant by the teachings." needs to be qualified. The only serious scholars (non apologists) who seem to have treated the subject are Buerger and Turner, both of whom concluded that Brigham's teachings unambiguously equated Adam with the Father of our Spirits etc. Even some LDS apologists says that is what Brigham taught, but that it was just an opnion on his part (as pointed out earlier in the article).
Also, there needs to be a section on the quotes attributed to Joseph Smith on this doctrine, and showing Eliza R. Snow's belief in it. I'll work on it.
An example of a few -
The Ultimatum of Human Life
Eliza R. Snow, An Immortal, p. 188-9; Poems of Eliza R. Snow 2:8,9.
She wrote a couple of other poems on the subject, and "Women of Mormondom" (Co-edited by her) speaks of her Hymn of Invocation (the original title of "O My Father" being on this subject.
I deleted the following quote, until we get a citation:
It's very important to know who wrote this, because if it's just some Joe Schmoe on the internet, I'm not sure it's a valuable addition to the article, especially since it's a conclusory statement without an explanation as to why the researcher arrived at this conclusion. COGDEN 18:58, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps we could section it into scholarly, apologetic LDS, apologetic Fundamentalist, Protestant Christian etc.? I've added a few ISBN's, but some of the books don't have them, but are important references because they typify different approaches to the subject. For example - to not include Briney's book would be a tragedy - it is 658 page hardback tome by an LDS Church member containing virtually all the source material on the subject.
I have added some publishers to the list of references, and will try to get the full reference for every publication listed. I agree with the need for the article to be unbiased. Although it is better than most treatments, it still seems a little too weighted towards the 'official LDS Church position' if there is such a thing, and I worry that at the moment it doesn't full represent the views of those serious scholars who have weighed in on this subject, or of those who have alternative views. Some of the presumptions are disputable, whether we personally agree with them or not. I will help where I can though.
I am only just finding the time to catch up on this. I will jot a few notes below on some general criticisms I have about biases shown in the current article -
Apart from Amasa Lyman criticizing the excommunication of someone because they didn't believe in the doctrine - which may just have indicated a disagreement with cutting soemone off solely for their beliefs - what evidence is there that he disagreed with the doctrine?
Need to state when and by whom! Spencer W. Kimball in 1976? If so - that was over 100 years after Brigham first taught it.
This is subjective - Some early (1852-90) Mormons, Fundamentalists, and anti-Mormons would dispute this!
Again subjective!
It is important to note that he referred to it as a doctrine on at least a couple of other occasions. Can cite.
Evidence please? Made other references between 1855-76, as well as being part of 1877 Lecture of the Veil (as already mentioned).
On several occasions he linked a belief in the doctrine to salvation. Can cite.
Need to qualify this - most modern LDS Church members may believe the first sentence, but if we include scholars from other 'Mormon' groups as well as those outside Mormonism then the majority of scholarly treatments on this subject (including some from LDS Church members) conclude that he did teach that Adam was the Father of our spirits, and the father of Jesus Christ. So the above conclusion is untenable.
A little rewording will go towards addressing these issues.
There are many inadequacies in the article also that need to be ultimately addressed -
-- Tobey 21:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
This article is WAY too long and detailed on a topic that is very obscure and speculative. Gospel hobbies. 64.178.145.150 20:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
More suffering just from being a long article, it gave (at least before my recent edit) too much space to detailed arguements against a claim. I put those into their own article in case anybody cares to read them (which seems pretty unlikely for the average reader intersted in the general topic). User:WikiEditi 14 Jan 2007 (UTC)
Mormons cannot claim exclusivity on this topic. Jewish doctrine equating Adam with God -- which is much older than the Brigham Young speculation -- has first dibs. Since the Talmudic commentary has chronological superiority, it appears first in the article. AuntieMormom 09:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The removed text is as follows:
COGDEN 21:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Chopping good-faith edits without discussion, and without even commenting the edit, is bad form. Please be courteous. AuntieMormom 11:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The dubious assertions in this section are uncited. The entire paragraph seems without merit or foundation. Disputants? -- AuntieMormom 16:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a total bastardization of the Adam God theroy. First off, it was always conjecture never a doctrine. In JD it was discussed how Adam siting now with God sharing in his glory. Much like any father and son relationship, a good Father wants to share all he has with his children. Power, wealth, property, knowledge,love, all things. BY was trying to say that Adam had received all things. Nothing more then that. I will research more so I can give better citation then JD. But what is written on the subject is just false. Jodaman7 ( talk) 20:45, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
This entire article reads more like original research than an encyclopedia entry. I did a little cleaning on the intro - and not sure if I stayed with that tone or improved it to be more encyclopedic - anyway - it needs a serious overhaul. -- Tr枚del 21:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I just removed the following sentence: "This unquestioned assumption that this journal entry contains the text of Brigham Young鈥檚 1 February 1877 lecture at the veil is very surprising because there are several reasons to question that assumption." I removed this because it seemed extraneous given the article's prior statement. The article already gives the fact, but this sentence encourages the reader to be surprised when the reader can make that decision herself. Also, the proposal to merge with the verbose arguments about Nuttall's journal should be rejected. Let's just drop that unnecessary distraction from the article. WikiEditi 22:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Inclusion of this article in Category:Mormonism-related controversies is opposed by only one editor so far, with myself, SESmith, CoolhandLuke, and BRMo arguing for inclusion. SESmith originally linked it, and CoolhandLuke proposed its inclusion in the MRC category talk pages. BRMo supported its inclusion on the category deletion proposal (which failed as a proposal).
The introduction itself correctly lists the Adam-God theory as a dispute, and the bulk of the article exists by virtue of its controversy (not its criticism). Anyone familiar with it knows it to be an internal doctrinal controversy based on historical arguments which are interpreted and qualified as to their meanings, which has both apologists and critics involved. Please make your wishes known FOR or AGAINST inclusion in the category. Anon166 21:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following section from the artcile today:
The reasons for doing so it that it is opinion, original research, and seeks to editorialize and draw conclusions that are not in evidence. If it is to be included then it need to be referenced, i.e. a reputable source providing a deduction that this seeks to provide. -- Storm Rider (talk) 02:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Big issues with how this is presented - there is too much interpretation going on in the intro. For example, the intro used this paragraph to illustrate that Young taught that Adam was "the Father" and "the literal Father of Christ:"
Okay, so the interpretation the reader is left with is that Elohim or the Father is Adam, who was married to Eve.
However, the full text of the sermon does not support this. Consider this passage that identifies Michael as the Holy Ghost, and that the literal "Father" of Christ was not the Holy Ghost; ie Adam:
There is just too much leading the reader in this. Thoughts on how to fix? - Visorstuff 22:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I have only heard this concept referred to as a "theory" by Mormon leaders and apologists, which in my mind suggests a minimization of the teachings of Brigham Young on this point since it is so controversial. Why is this article not titled "Adam-God Doctrine"? What is it called by academics (outside of FARMS)? Perhaps Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought has some insight. -- Descartes1979 ( talk) 06:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Brigham young himself only ever referred to it as a doctrine. 140.196.24.2 ( talk) 18:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
The mark between "Adam" and "God" in the name of the article was recently changed back to a hyphen from an en dash. My reading of the manual style would suggest that it should be an en dash, since the mark is used to connect two independent names. (Compare WP:HYPHEN with WP:DASH.) Is there some reason I'm not seeing that would indicate that it should be a hyphen? Good Ol鈥檉actory (talk) 03:16, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I went back and read the sources for some of this article and there are some problems with the context:
in the section called Brigham Young's 1852 announcement the article implies that Young was teaching that Adam was the father of Jesus Christ. However in context the comments are an unclear way of pursuing the overall idea of the discourse that God the father got a body from somewhere (presumebly the father of the human family some time in the past) and created the bodies of Adam Eve and Jesus Christ in the same way that his was created. (see particularly the end of p. 50) in that same sentence that the quote from the article comes is this line "from the fruits of the earth the first earthly tabernacles were organized by the father" in reference to the bodies of adam and eve. This article's interpretation would indicate that Adam created his own body before inhabiting it (an idea which goes against a similar mormon theology from the time that only Gods to that type of creating and one has to have a body to be a God).
in addition, the quote that says something like jesus christ was begotten by the same character that was in the garden of eden, earlier on p. 50 Young indicates that at one point all three entities (Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael) were in the garden of eden; and the article also calles Eloheim God the Father or our Father in heaven on several occasions (see p. 49 and 51).
It seems that the whole point of Young's comments is to point out that 1) the Holy Ghost did not father Jesus Christ, 2) that Jesus Christ gets his divinity from the fact that God is his father, and 3) that the bodies that were given to adam and eve were celestial before they consumed the fruit.
After reading some of the previous discussions about this page (about this being an original research article), and not being an expert on this subject it seems to me that the article's author might taking advantage of some poorly worded sentences to establish the basis for this whole idea (again not an expert but given the historical treatment of mormon theology by non-mormons this may simply be a case of distortion by somebody who likes to make hay about some non-standard christian ideas)
Personally I think that someone besides the author (and somebody who has way more time than I do) should review the original sources carefully to see if these citations make sense (it only tooke me a few min of casual browsing to notice these particular inconsistencies). it also might be useful to know what the interpretation of "God" meant at the time given Wilford Woodruff's quotation in the Church's official position section (Woodruff said basicaly the same thing as Young several years after the church had repudiated the doctrine) 鈥擯receding unsigned comment added by 137.54.28.191 ( talk) 20:10, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm challenging the inclusion of " Statement by Elden Watson", as it appears not to be a reliable source. This is just some guy's obscure website, which has not been subject to fact-checking or peer review, or any reliable publication process. As such, it would not be directly citable in any academic work without some additional fact-checking legwork. Such material normally cannot be used as a citation for Wikipedia. COGDEN 02:32, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
The website, " http://user.xmission.com/~country/by/100861.htm" linked by this citation no longer exists, nor is readily available in internet archives such as the wayback machine ( http://wayback.archive.org). A casual Google Search turned up no usable result that would match the original source document. If anyone has a new link, it should be updated. Otherwise, this citation should be removed. Nyozekian ( talk) 19:38, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Over the years, this article developed a lot鈥攁nd I mean A LOT鈥攐f commentary in the text which appears to be various users attempting to explain what Young really meant when he preached the doctrine. I have removed most of this stuff鈥攏one of it contained any references, except to the primary material in the Journal of Discourses that is quoted to back up the points being made. If there are reliable sources that have written about such speculation or explanations, then they by all means can be included in the article if properly cited. But this article is not the place for users to advance their own pet theories or explanations which are substantiated only by only their own original research. Good Ol鈥檉actory (talk) 01:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
I am quite familiar with the history of President Young teaching Adam-God. But I have never seen any record of Presidents John Taylor or Wilford Woodruff teaching this doctrine. Yet that is among the first things this article says. Unless someone can give any evidence that these two men did in fact TEACH Adam-God doctrine, this point should be taken out of the article. 鈥斅燩receding unsigned comment added by Erichard ( talk 鈥 contribs) 05:34, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Right. Presidents Taylor and Woodruff must have implicitly accepted Adam-God teachings, but there is no record of them teaching it themselves. If no one changes the article in a while I will eventually make it say something that supports this. 鈥斅燩receding unsigned comment added by Erichard ( talk 鈥 contribs) 17:20, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
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This article has major neutrality issues. Honestly, it reads more like a tract written by an anti-Mormon propagandist than an accurate, balanced account written by a historian. The LDS church never officially accepted this doctrine. In fact, if you look at all of Brigham Young's statements, rather than a few cherry-picked dubious quotes, an honest historian must conclude that Brigham Young himself must not have taken the idea very seriously as he did not teach it much and in fact taught the opposite idea much more often. There are far more recorded instances of Brigham Young teaching the exact opposite (that Adam and God are separate people). However, this article gives a completely different impression. To you Wikipedia writers and editors who have an agenda of trying to make the LDS church look bad: leave your twisting of history to your personal blogs. You don't successfully fool people. You just make people conclude that Wikipedia is unreliable. I will make a few changes to try to fix this article, but it really needs a complete rewrite by a knowledgeable expert without an agenda. 66.171.208.27 ( talk) 16:24, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Under "initial reactions" several lines are quoted from the hymn "We Believe in Our God" with a reference to Sacred Hymns and Spiritual Songs for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1856) p. 375. Page 375 of that book actually contains the hymn "Sons of Michael", which is quoted on the next line of the article, and the lines quoted are nowhere to be found in that book. I suspect the cite should have been on the next line, and another source needs to be found for this hymn.
However, the version I checked is the 14th edition (1871) whereas the 1856 edition is the 11th. It is conceivable that "We Believe in Our God" was omitted from the 12th edition and replaced with "Sons of Michael". (It would have to be the 12th, since the preface to the 14th edition states that no changes were made from the previous 2 editions other than adding some hymns at the end.) If so, it might be related to the "resistance" mentioned in the article, and therefore worth mentioning. Sadly there don't seem to be any (public) copies of the 11th or 12th editions outside the USA so I can't check - for the moment I've left the cite where it is and added a note that "We Believe in Our God" was not in later editions. Pastychomper ( talk) 15:32, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
I appreciate the various permutations and explanations of this doctrine. But none of them currently clarify this:
Who is that speaking to Adam in the Garden? Take this example-
Genesis 2:16-17 KJV - And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
There are several other passages like this set in the Garden. So, if Adam is God (however that is defined) who鈥檚 talking to him? Any clarification welcome. 67.188.70.6 ( talk) 21:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)