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The true is, that "The fragment contained only the bass line", no more! Any 6 bars of melody! It was just a basso (or basso continuo) part! All another was composed by Giazotto. Gerea-en 16:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
with no original material from Albinoni. However, Giazotto himself has attested that the work was reconstructed, or constructed, based on real fragments of an original work by Albinoni from the Dresden State Library. See this link on the reconstruction of the work based on the fragment:
Essentially what Wikipedia is saying is that Giazotto is a liar and a cheat, but that instead of trying to pass off an exquisite masterpiece written by someone else as his own work, Giazotto supposedly did the opposite - write the masterpiece himself and then claim someone else wrote it. Since Albinoni was no longer famous by the end of WW2, this claim by Wikipedia is highly suspect. No doubt Wikipedia has the evidence to back up its claim that the work is a hoax. Giazotto, a highly respected musicologist, has stated his case. The burden is now on Wikipedia to debunk it.
The claim needs stronger referencing. I found the following snippet views from Google Books. From The Flutist Quarterly, volume 13 (National Flute Association, 1988), I found this quote: "The present edition is a version of the famous Adagio in G minor for strings and organ, an original composition prepared by Remo Giazotto and based on two thematic drafts and one figured bass by Tomaso Albinoni") From "Vivaldi" (Alan Kendall, 1978): "It is perhaps unfortunate that the work that made the name of Albinoni heard so much by the public at large a few years ago - an Adagio in G minor for Organ and Strings - is not in fact by him, but mostly by his biographer Rcmo [sic] Giazotto". Marasmusine ( talk) 21:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
I removed this adjective and it was quickly put back, so I'll put my mild objection here. The "neo-" is a nod to the likelyhood that this work was mostly written in the 20th century. I understand that. But in my mind, "neo-baroque" incorporating baroque influences into a more modern palatte... something like Respighi's The Birds, or Stravinsky's Pulcinella. This piece is more of a "pastiche"... written so close to the Baroque style as to convince people that it actually was written two hundred years before. In my opinion, that's not neo-baroque. A minor quibble, though, so I'll archive it here. -- DavidRF ( talk) 22:39, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Minor quibble: the baroqueness is not superficial; not that the modern techniques added are superficial either, but are they so fundamental that one would say that had Albinoni access to them, he would not have incorporated them in a way similar to that presented in the piece before us? It seems to me something like this supports DavidRF and the success of the traditional attribution. But one thing is certain: if this be a hoax, let's have more of them! 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 02:50, 3 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 70.89.232.180
I removed the italicized part (by me here) of this little paragraph today:
It seems to me that WP is not in the business of reviewing classical music or of speading that type pf BBC opinions around, ending an article like that to influence music lovers, negatively or positively. The reference should probably also be removed, as I assume it was given to put some clout behind that slur. SergeWoodzing ( talk) 14:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't even sound like Albinoni, whose authentic(ated) music never sounds as depressed as this piece ('the most beautiful ever written', to quote the silly juvenile writer further up). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:05, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Please don't confuse two questions, whether Giazotto actually found a manuscript fragment from Albinoni (uncertain?), and whether this work is largely composed or at least inspired by Albinoni (close but probably so). Certain parts seem to be obviously in the style of Albinoni and a close derivative of his work, so it seems arguably appropriate to call this Albinoni's Adagio, and certainly Giazotto felt so. (Even if it was a "hoax," the work would still be an imitation of Albinoni.)
Also the title of the article should be "Albinoni's Adagio in G minor," since that is the way the work is known.
in any way, anymore. Case closed.-- Galassi ( talk) 20:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Please see new citation added for sources on similarity of piece to other albinoni work. Note that it is certainly not "no one": the question is open according to several commentators. While I do not claim to be a musical expert, it seems the dispute over attribution is a live and legitimate one. The dispute over the manuscript is distinct from the question of how much of Albinoni in style or subtance was borrowed by Giazotto; no one has ever questioned that Giazotto made substantial additions of his own, but still the question is whether it is better called Albinoni's or Giazotto's adagio (or both men's). Reasonable people differ about that, but there certainly is a strong dispute. --added by 70.89.232.180
The point is that the analysis of the music provided is one which any one can then perform in a listening test; the attribution to Albinoni itself is widespread, and claiming that it is uncontested that Giazotto composed it without any borrowing from Albinoni seems clearly wrong. It seems to me you are engaged in reverting edits (two back to back complete reversions of all my edits) to establish a non-neutral point of view. WP:POV. So I reverted your undo of my edit for violation of reversion policy. However, I agree need to find better analysis cite per WP:RS guidelines. Perhaps the way forward is to separate out the question of similarity of work to other Albinoni (the traditional attribution to Albinoni attests to the success of the imitation) from more particular though very interesting questions about Giazotto's role in a musical hoax (the manuscript issues). Regarding the WP:RS, the source is making a claim about his analysis of the music, not making technical claims regarding the manusript. It seems to me this similarity is one thing that contributed to the success of the hoax by an admirer of Albinoni (if there was a hoax), but that also means that the work may be said to be derivative from Albinoni and the traditional attribution has an arguably good foundation. Further note that the expert sources above cited even by the pro-Giazotto view include qualifiers present in my version and lacking in the reversions by Galassi.-- 70.89.232.180 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 02:15, 3 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180
As I said, even some of the sources on your side, or rather on the side of claiming that Giazotto composed "most" of it, introduce qualifiers you remove. Also, you are conflating two disputes: the manuscript, and the influence of Albinoni in the work, which goes directly to the question of balancing attribution claims. As far as the cite, I removed it for now. Note that three back to back reversions of all my edits to establish non-neutral point of view appears to be a violation of the reversion policy. The "hoax" article you give just cites back to this as far as I can see: how does it establish new evidence on influence of Albinoni in the Adagio? --added by 70.89.232.180, 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 03:13, 3 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180
Well, it would certainly be good to have a list on each side; but how is it a good idea, for the sake of avoiding a weasel word, to go to falsehoods? For it is false to say that "no one" thinks any part of the adagio is in the style of Albinoni's other works; on the contrary, for most of the time the piece has been around, it was generally considered to be exclusively by Albinoni. The expert consensus is NOT that the piece has "NOTHING" to do with Albinoni: you keep on conflating two separate questions: the one regarding the manuscript (the hoax), and the question of whether the piece imitates Albinoni. The success of the hoax, if there was one, suggests that the piece to most listeners does successfully imitate Albinoni, and even the experts your side cites use weasel words like "most" describing the probable source. I think you are missing the forest for the trees: there is at least a strong resemblance to what no one questions as Albinoni's work here, even if Giazotto "wrote" the entire thing. Giazotto would have gotten nowhere trying to pull this off as the work of Beethoven etc. I don't see any evidence of an expert consensus that the piece is not influenced by Albinoni, nor any expert consensus that the piece is not properly called "Adagio in G after Albinoni" or in the style of Albinoni. The traditional attribution has a good defense, and this issue (as opposed to the manuscript/hoax question) is open and NOT settled. To clarify, I'm inclined to think Giazotto wrote almost all of it myself, but that is different from saying that some attribution should not be given to Albinoni, or that Giazotto was not consciously imitating and deriving a great deal from Albinoni's works, --and I can't see how you can seriously claim that it is uncontested that "NOTHING" of Albinoni lives in this Adagio, especially given the particular reception this piece has enjoyed. In fact, you have cited not a single piece of expert opinion that says there is no imitation of Albinoni in this piece, whereas I at least have cited the analysis of listeners which show parts of it are derivative from Albinoni, as well as the historical reception of the piece. How does one conclude from this that you are correct in asserting that it is universally agreed that "NOTHING" of the Adagio must be attributed to Albinoni? My position at least keeps the question alive, whereas you seem to be deciding things ahead of time for the reader, breaking the WP:NPOV policy and I think the best spirit of wikipedia--to err on the side of including the best arguments for each position, rather than pre-selecting the winner for the reader. In any case, I believe it is against wikipedia policy to unilaterally revert all of someone's edits three times in a row, absent "vandalism" or some egregious violation. The only real violation here is a position you disagree with: that the Adagio is influenced by Albinoni, and so that the attribution has some reasonable basis. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 05:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180-- 70.89.232.180
I am not sure what part of this you are objecting to? Please try to respond to my specific points. Regarding "daft theory," the Adagio had in fact commonly been attributed at least in part to Albinoni, which required some sense of a similarity in the work. Furthermore, you do not provide any source that claims the Adagio has no musical similarity to any part of Albinoni (let alone "universal" assent!), whereas I have given sources to the contrary (albeit laymen); though I would think the point is fairly obvious given the historical reception of the piece. Your reversion is now the fourth complete undo of my edits, violating wikipedia policy, and you also do not respond to the WP:NPOV objection. On both these counts, I am justified in undoing your blanket reversions. Finally, you are bootstrapping one narrow thesis regarding the manuscript/hoax into an unproven and implausible claim, i.e. if you will, a daft theory, that the Adagio has absolutely no similarity to or derivation from anything in Albinoni. Even taking it as a hoax, the hoax is still an imitation of Albinoni. I am not saying that the piece is not substantially different from what Albinoni would have or could have written, but I am denying your assertion that (1) there is "NOTHING" at all in the Adagio of Albinoni--nothing by way of derivation, imitation, or inspiration--and (2) that this is universally agreed to. I can, if you wish, go line by line and word by word and defend each of my edits. For example, I would like to get rid of "primarily" in the first sentence ("primarily composed by"), but I can't because some of the expert sources cited in your side say that it was "mostly composed by Giazotto" rather than "entirely." If you wish to be very strict, you can turn that to "primarily or entirely," which I had as one of my prior edits (that you of course undid). In general, regarding the style of the piece, from what sources I could find on the web, some regard it as a "pastiche" of elements similar to Albinoni and non-Albinoni elements, others regard it as entirely and easily distinguishable from Albinoni, and still others regard sections as derivative or imitative of Albinoni. I don't see any evidence for your point of view that there is universal agreement that the piece has "NOTHING" to do with Albinoni, even among the experts. So this is definitely a WP:NPOV violation. And I might add, Giazotto admired Albinoni, and you may be overlooking possibilities arising from that aspect of the "hoax." 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 17:19, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
I am not disagreeing that was written by Giazotto; however, the question in dispute is not who wrote the piece, but whether any parts are imitative of Albinoni such that the attribution is entirely wrong. Commonly it is said as being "after Albinoni." I agree that "arranged by Giazotto" is incorrect, as it was written by Giazotto. The manuscript/hoax question is NOT the same question as whether the piece "borrows" elements from Albinoni such that at least some attribution to Albinoni is defensible. I believe it is an illegitimate non-neutral POV, given the reception of the piece and the analysis of certain passages, to claim that it is universallly agreed that there is "NOTHING" of Albinoni in this Adagio. I therefore would insist on edits that do not pre-decide this important point in advance for all readers, especially since others do find some noticeable similarities with Albinoni's works. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:02, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
My point is that the success of the hoax testifies at least that many considered it plausibly in Albinoni's style, somewhat imitative. Let me put it this way: if I copy the principal passages and style of Shakespeare's plays and successfully for some years palm it off as Shakespeares's, does that mean that it is correct to say that Shakespeare deserves no attribution? Again, the hoax question is separable from the question of influence or imitation, or so it seems to me, and that means some partial attribution is arguably due to Albinoni. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
I don't actually ever use "after Albinoni" in the edits; but on the other hand, it is widely thought that there is influence of Albinoni here, though of course not written by him! I propose that should be made clear -- whatever technical terms you think are correct are fine. I agree we should not get bogged down in semantics. If the work arguably imitiates Albinoni, then there is some basis for crediting Albinoni in some way for the Adagio. That is certainly the point others have made before me. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180 P.s. I am not asking for anything to be changed!! I am asking that the current version NOT be reverted! 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180 Again (to be perfectly clear): I am the one who authored the version with "whatever inspired him" etc., simply to make clear that writing is different from the question of what he was looking to in writing it, which seems certain at least to me, given Giazotto's life's work and given the piece itself, to have been Albinoni! The question is why not let the current version STAND; which Galassi continually reverts. i.e. I agree with you current version is FINE. I am the one arguing against changes, i.e. REVERSIONS, from the version you (DavidRF) have been looking at. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:31, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
"Primarily" is due to the expert sources cited still hedging and saying "mostly"; I would prefer to get rid of it but felt constrained by the wording of some of the sources and wikipedia policy to keep it--but you can get rid of it. The other changes I disagree with but perhaps I can revise to make acceptable. The point is there are cites to laymen on the similarity (which were reverted for reasons I understand), BUT there are no cites given to the alternative view, that there is no similarity of the Adagio to Albinoni--and I'd add this is contrary to the well known historical reception of the work. I can try to make clear that this does not impact the question of who wrote the piece. There is mention of Albinoni otherwise but only to deny that he has any influence, which seems to a non-neutral POV and actually incorrect given what we know about Giazotto and about the piece itself! The question of the influence of Albinoni in this piece is a MAJOR question, not the same as the hoax question and not one that should be pre-decided by the editors. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:45, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180 --ok tried to clean it in a direction acceptable to all. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:56, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
Yes I agree that we need to make the probable hoax clear (I mean that the manuscript probably didn't exist; it was never denied I think that Giazotto wrote most of it), but I think that is clear as it stands. I think we need to give some respect to all those who are struck by the similarity to Albinoni, which is very plausible given the piece, its reception, and Giazotto's own life and admiration for Albinoni, without any way undermining the very strong evidence that Giazotto wrote all of it. I think the current version does that, but let me know if you disagree. I would add a hoax is not necessarily a bad thing, at least not to all of us (assuming the piece is a good one). 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 19:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180 . .- @DavidRF, thank you for restoring my "inspiration" phrase. (though I still think on the whole this gives insufficient credit to the reception of the work and to the point of view concerning its perceived and historically successful borrowing from Albinoni, so this is somewhat unbalanced or unfair to the memory of Giazotto and the Adagio, or not representing that perspective. but i'll leave the discussion here for future readers. I would underline Giazotto's admiration for Albinoni's works.) 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 19:53, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
(my apologies, it looks like you preserved my phrasing in the recent edits but did not restore it--must have clicked on the wrong versions in history.) Not much disagreement otherwise, except regarding the implications of the admiration, not always present in hoaxes, let alone such a high quality and original one. I thought "scholarly" was more accurate and less "encyclopedic" in wording based on the sources. misattributed/attributed--this is certainly very minor, didn't notice it in editing; I think correct either way (ie.. "popularly but incorrectly" attributed). Regarding the scholarly (or musicological) consensus; I looked up the cites and some of them still say "mostly" Giazotto (not entirely). It is not important to me, as I said not much disagreement there, but I was trying to follow wikipedia policy. I corrected the year written only because the sources cited do not list 1958 as the year written, only the year copyrighted and published; that may I admit be nitpicking but not incorrect. As far as my being concerned to "refute opinions no one has," I don't think that is at all fair: from my point of view I was trying to keep open a legitimate point of view that otherwise is suppressed (i.e. NPOV). I do, based on the piece itself and the historical evidence, strongly disagree with this, and I am not alone in disagreeing: "The Adagio is not inspired by Albinoni, it contains absolutely no Albinoni material, there is no discernible Albinoni influence." (I would say, as I said at the outset, for a number of reasons probably if not certainly inspired by Albinoni.) Thanks for your time and your moderation, which was very helpful in resolving the main point. I think we could all use a break from this page! 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 22:22, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
It was written by Giazotto, there is nil evidence that any part of it was written by Albinoni, it doesn't sound at all like (any work actually written by) Albinoni, ergo it's not "Albinoni's adagio" or any such name. Simples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:08, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Apologies, did not mean to mislead the readers of this article, but it is true that Albinoni's Adagio is played during Greek Easter at the island of Corfu by the "Philharmonic Society of Corfu". Kindly see the following link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMKoXvCHxqQ Deep apologies form Greece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cv97035 ( talk • contribs) 14:40, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
It might be worth saving these two older edits from oblivion. They were (justifiably) undone because they contained original research, but they are IMHO interesting enough to be preserved at least on the talk page. -- 109.85.32.176 ( talk) 12:13, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
There is some resemblance between the theme of this Adagio and the beginning of the theme of the Adagio sostenuto of Louise Farrenc's first trio op. 33 for piano, violin and cello, dated 1841: the descending melodic shape itself, the harmonic progression I V V I I IV, and the principle and place of a melodic answer. There is one more note in head of the theme in Farrenc's (Eb - her theme is in Cm), and the rhythm and the answer are different in Giazotto's; he continues with a sequence whereas Farrenc comes back to V. This can be heard for example in Trio Estampe's performance at 1'01, to 1'14. -- Anne Ripoll 14:11, 8 August 2012 [ [3]
On a side note, if you listen to Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's Horn Concerto No. 4 in E-flat major, K. 495, I. Allegro Moderato, you can hear a very familiar tune from what is known as Albinoni's Adagio (a little over 3 minutes from the start). Since Mozart lived after this piece is allegedly being attributed to Albinoni, there is a probability that Mozart borrowed it. However, if Giazotto was in fact Adagio's composer, then he was basing his Adagio on Mozart's Allegro Moderato's fragment. -- LoneTiger1962 23:07, 13 March 2013 [ [4]
Nicola Schneider's Master's thesis of 2007 (written in Italian) sheds new light on the provenance of the Adagio. It doesn't offer a final answer, but it shows that Giazotto did use some kind of source. The following is an edited Google translation of the relevant passage (Nicola Schneider: La tradizione delle opere di Tomaso Albinoni a Dresda, tesi di laurea specialistica, Facoltà di musicologia dell'Università degli studi di Pavia, Cremona 2007, pp. 181–186; footnotes are from the original, additions by me are in small type and {curly brackets}):
But there is another version of the origin of the Adagio, supplied by the same Giazotto, which differs considerably from that of 1958. According to the friendly communication by Remo Giazotto's last assistant and academic collaborator, Dr. Muska Mangano (Verona), the aged musicologist, near death, explained the genesis of the Adagio again, prompted by an article by Piero Buscaroli {published on 22 September 1992}. The following is Muska Mangano's letter:
{...} Remo Giazotto tried to tell the journalist {Piero Buscaroli} the genesis of his Adagio in G minor, explaining how it was born out of pure fun and certainly not with the intention that it could serve as an accompaniment to his monograph on Albinoni. [...]
- {From Giazotto's letter to Buscaroli:} “[...] Having returned from the Aosta Valley with the University Batallion in '36, I immediately devoted myself to my Master's thesis. Torrefranca had given me the name of Albinoni for a book to be published in his series New Ways of Musical History. But war events ruined his project. However, he did not reject my suggestion to do research on Albinoni, and in January '40 the instrumental work of the dilettante veneto, numbered and unnumbered, had been studied by me. The effort had been enormous, but at that time the book was ready for a publisher. I decided to get rid of all the useless material the hardworking German librarians had sent me, and between this I also found the paper containing the four bars of the theme and the figured bass. I amused myself with realizing a melodic continuation of that thematic cue. I seemed to return to the time when Paribeni, master of harmony, had given me similar tasks. [...]”
According to this testimony, Giazotto received the fragments of the Adagio at the very beginning of the war without giving notice in his monograph published later. [1] The discrepancy between the six and the four bars of the first violin mentioned in the versions of 1958 and 1992 respectively should certainly not be taken literally because at that time Giazotto was already very ill. Questions addressed to his heirs about the existence of material relating to his book left in their possession have not produced any results so far, therefore the allegations reported are not verifiable. But shortly before Giazotto's death, Muska Mangano undertook to finish his work on Clementi, [2] and among his papers she found related studies and notes, including a modern photocopy of the fragment that had been the source of the Adagio in the edition of 1958. {...} The appearance of this document in Muska Mangano's possession must be considered an important fact since that copy is the only foothold of the original Dresden source.
The paper is a recent photocopy of a modern manuscript bearing in the top right-hand corner a stamp stating unequivocally the Dresden provenance of the original from which it was taken. Since, unfortunately, it is not a frame like those that constituted Giazotto's research material, namely positive images with writing in white on a black background (as seen reproduced in the monograph of 1945), it is difficult to evaluate this document. It should be noted immediately that the copy does not reproduce the basso continuo in print of which one has read many times, but its manual transcription in a handwriting that appears to belong to the first half of the twentieth century. The transcriber was evidently German – as indicated by the title {Albinoni’s Trio Sonate G moll} – and wrote down the entire figured bass, inserting the six fragmentary bars of the first violin in their place on the staves. Unfortunately, the photocopy has cut up the writing on the stamp, which thus is not decipherable, but it should be reconstructible by comparison with similar contemporary documents; the words may have contained the name either of the photo studio or of the library that is running the photograph. You can read very well the words below: “Dresden. – Lichtbild | von”. It is unclear what the doubly underlined number “7” refers to, which is located directly below the stamp; it could possibly refer to the number of bars (77 without the 'soli' in bb. 20/21), but this would be an unusual position for a number – at the top and not at the end of the piece. In any case it cannot be the beginning of a signature because in the Dresden system introduced in the years 1926–30 signatures begin with the word 'Mus.' followed by the composer's identification number (Albinoni, in this case, was given the “2199”).
Apparently, a manuscript copy of the printed source was first drawn up in Dresden, in which the melodic fragments of the first violin were then inserted, and from this manuscript the photograph was taken that came to Giazotto. From some source, however, he must have heard about the printed bass part he mentions several times. It is not clear why the Dresden library did not send a frame or a microfilm of this printed part, as they did for all the other sources. When Giazotto sold all the photographic material relating to his work on Albinoni in 1940, he could not foresee what turn the war would take. At that time, the scope of devastation the British fleet would cause in the German city shortly thereafter was unimaginable for all, which is why, perhaps, Giazotto could not calculate the value of his collection of microfilm, which preserved, at least in content, many sources that are no longer available because they burned or were dispersed. [3]
Talbot and many others have “disattributed” the Adagio to Albinoni – remember that Giazotto never claimed that the piece was all original – on purely stylistic grounds. The stylistic categories to determine the authenticity of the Adagio should be applied, if anything, only to the figured bass. To facilitate a comparison of the score in Giazotto's edition, the basso continuo attested by the Dresden copy and the authentic trio sonatas [4] by Albinoni, there will be a diplomatic transcription of the page of music at the end of this chapter. When he began to elaborate the figured bass, Giazotto was perhaps mindful of the example of Nikolaus Heinrich Gerber, who under the auspices of Johann Sebastian Bach had worked out an accompaniment on the figured bass of the sonata Op. VI, 6, which Spitta reprinted in the appendix to his work on Bach. [5] A comparison of Muska Mangano's copy and the Ricordi score reveals that the bass without the figures in Giazotto's score can be found almost unchanged in the left hand of the organ. One notices slight rhythmic variations in support of the new melody and some advances designed to emphasize the essentially “romantic” character of Giazotto's piece. The original melodic fragments of the first violin are not marked as such, while many expressive and agogic indications (which at that time were not a rarity even in historical-critical editions – think of Malipiero's editorial practices) are by the modern author. The harmonic progress required by the original figures is largely respected, even if the high concentration of 9–8 suspensions, which creates a highly pathetic atmosphere, has no equivalent in the genuine trio sonatas by Albinoni.
- ^ Perhaps because of scruples about the authenticity of the fragment?
- ^ Clementi 2002 {= Muzio Clementi: Epistolario 1781–1831. A cura di Remo Giazotto. Skira, Milan 2002}.
- ^ E.g. that of the concerto for violin and orchestra Co 3 held at D-Dl, Mus. 2-O-1.
- ^ The op. I and the six sonatas So 20–25.
- ^ Giazotto 1945, p. 84, was aware of it.
-- Schneid9 ( talk) 23:51, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
@Schneid9, Thank you very much for finding valuable new information. At a quick glance, this seems to provide renewed support for giving some credit to Albinoni for parts of the Adagio, but, regardless, it is very welcome as new evidence. I hope this meets the wikipedia requirements as an expert source, at least given the scant sources we have. I will wait to see what others think or how they incorporate this into the main entry. This should open or widen the debate a bit! 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 01:20, 7 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
Ok, no one else had added the evidence provided by Schneid9, so I made some revisions. Feel free to adjust as needed, but I urge strongly that we keep the WP:NPOV policy in mind! 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 19:10, 21 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180 .. @Galassi: Please stop your practice of complete reverts of someone else's edits; in this case, clearly against wp:npov--primary source of high or at least solid evidentiary worth provided; you simply should not be deleting good evidence that albinoni was a source. If you wish, please add some good evidence on your side; that is best for discussion and thinking. But deleting reasonable opposing points of view is bad for the soul. WP:NPOV, WP:RV. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 22:48, 21 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
Is there some agreement about this:
(1) That we should make clear that the Mangano/NicolaSchneider fragment has NO known connection with Albinoni, other than Giazotto's own claim that the fragment was of Albinoni.
(2) This is more complicated: are we agreed here that there is not scholarly consensus as to the existence of a hoax, but only consensus as to Giazotto's authorship of the Adagio? We have three pages that probably should be roughly consistent (though with different areas of focus), if things are being done right: the Adagio page, the Albinoni page, and the Giazotto page. The Giazotto wiki page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remo_Giazotto ) says that Giazotto gave two accounts of the Adagio; in the second he took full credit for the piece, but in the first account he had claimed "not to have composed" the Adagio but merely "arranged" it. That suggests a hoax (the wiki page implies his second account proves the first one was a lie), but on the other hand, that wiki page also seems to say that in the first account Giazotto said he had arranged the Adagio only out of a mere fragment. That would suggest (even in his first account) that there was NOT a hoax--that he said, I found a scrap of music, and based only on that scrap, I give you this whole Adagio (leaving aside for the moment the important question as to whether the scrap has any connection with Albinoni).
To say it another way, I am wondering whether we agree that the sources support the paragraph above that begins "(1) Giazotto never claimed that the Adagio was all Albinonian."), or is the consensus (prior to the discovery of the Mangano fragment) instead that Giazotto had pulled a hoax by claiming the piece was almost entirely from Albinoni. Do we know what the sources say about the proof on the hoax: what did Giazotto himself say or knowingly go along with that supports the hoax--did he claim any basis for the work larger than "a fragment" at ANY time. (Of course there are a number of intermediate positions.) I want to make absolutely sure there is not a misunderstanding on this.
(The Adagio wiki page gives a slightly different flavor, but one that does not necessarily imply hoax: "In his account, Giazotto then constructed the balance of the complete single-movement work based on this fragmentary theme." The hoax is implicit only in the fact that "no official record of [the fragment's] presence in the collection of the Saxon State Library" was ever found--since in this wiki version Giazotto says "the balance," i.e. nearly the entirety, was his own work; and the evidence from Nicola Schneider suggests that despite the missing library record, there may have been a fragment after all, so there would not have been a hoax even in this respect.)
Let me put the question this way: can we agree that Giazotto's first account, according to all or most of the reliable sources, does not suggest a hoax UNLESS the fragment is fabricated. What I want to clarify is to what extent in the first account Giazotto gave or did not give the impression that the work was not his own but Albinoni's, for anything beyond the mere fragment. That would affect how much space and weight on the wiki page we should give the Nicola Schneider discovery, and how much weight and space to the hoax view, or other intermediate positions.
I realize this is an obscure subject and we are debating a small point, so it may time a bit of time for adequate input to come in, but thanks for any pointers. MnlCls ( talk) 20:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Asked to identify the composition by Albinoni that first sprang to mind, most music-lovers would probably name the Adagio in G minor for strings and organ, a piece originally published in 1958 and ever since a mainstay of record catalogues and chamber orchestra programmes. This is ironic, for the piece's actual composer, the musicologist and Albinoni scholar Remo Giazotto, has never claimed that the Adagio is based on more than a tiny original fragment; moreover, the existence of even that fragment has frequently been doubted since all efforts to trace it have failed.
— Michael Talbot, Tomaso Albinoni: The Venetian Composer and His World, Oxford 1990, p. v
I've just discovered another completely different version of the genesis of the Adagio. In a review of the I Musici recording, Michael Talbot wrote in 1972:
An untraced fragment of unconfirmed attribution to Albinoni allegedly reported by Torrefranca to have belonged to an unnamed private collection that eventually passed to an unidentified state library in Leipzig: this is the original source on which Giazotto’s very free reconstruction is purportedly based. Need more be said?
— Michael Talbot, The Musical Times, Vol. 113, No. 1555 (September 1972), p. 874
I'm not sure where this version comes from. It could be from the cover of the Philips record, but its ultimate source would probably be Giazotto himself. According to Lugert & Schütz (1998), there was a correspondence on the sources of the Adagio between the Saxon State Library, several musicologists and Ricordi from 1968 to 1978; I suspect the above could have been the version Giazotto (or Ricordi) gave then. Basically, however, this version is reconcilable with the Mangano/Schneider discovery:
However that may be, the Torrefranca track is probably worth following. What about this wild theory: Torrefranca found the printed bass part with the six manuscript bars of the first violin in some private collection, copied it (this would also be an explanation for the strangely un-German spelling of the German title), had it photographed in Dresden and gave the photograph to Giazotto, who later photocopied it. The original then disappeared in some library, where it is still waiting for rediscovery. (No, Galassi, I'm not going to insert this theory into the article.) -- Schneid9 ( talk) 19:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the possibility of transmission from a twentieth-century manuscript from Dresden, it is not entirely implausible that such a manuscript may have existed. SLUB Dresden has a register of manuscripts lost in WWII (Kriegsverluste), and this register lists two such lost manuscripts containing Trio Sonatas by Albinoni, both in E Major. The entry for the first
can be viewed here, and that for the second
can be viewed here. They appear to have been copied by Alfred Richter from sources at SLUB Dresden itself, with (perhaps unsurprisingly) the figured bass realised for the piano. The source used for the second manuscript (a copy of Op.3 No.2) survives, and has been digitised by SLUB Dresden,
visible here.
Alfred Richter (1846-1919), a pianist and composer, taught at the HMT in Leipzig, and perhaps the manuscript in the photocopy owned by Giazotto was also in the hand of Richter. Now, even if such a manuscript existed and was the same as that reprinted in Schneider's dissertation, that does not in itself prove that this rather extraordinary passage is by Albinoni, which I for one would be inclined to doubt. -- Irishmaestro ( talk) 00:40, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
References
Hi, I'm keeping reverted my addition about Orson Welles' use of the Adagio in The Trial (1962 film). What source would be satisfactory to maintain the information? Is IMDB alright? It is common knowledge so it'd be very easy to find a source. -- Nazroon ( talk) 19:06, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The true is, that "The fragment contained only the bass line", no more! Any 6 bars of melody! It was just a basso (or basso continuo) part! All another was composed by Giazotto. Gerea-en 16:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
with no original material from Albinoni. However, Giazotto himself has attested that the work was reconstructed, or constructed, based on real fragments of an original work by Albinoni from the Dresden State Library. See this link on the reconstruction of the work based on the fragment:
Essentially what Wikipedia is saying is that Giazotto is a liar and a cheat, but that instead of trying to pass off an exquisite masterpiece written by someone else as his own work, Giazotto supposedly did the opposite - write the masterpiece himself and then claim someone else wrote it. Since Albinoni was no longer famous by the end of WW2, this claim by Wikipedia is highly suspect. No doubt Wikipedia has the evidence to back up its claim that the work is a hoax. Giazotto, a highly respected musicologist, has stated his case. The burden is now on Wikipedia to debunk it.
The claim needs stronger referencing. I found the following snippet views from Google Books. From The Flutist Quarterly, volume 13 (National Flute Association, 1988), I found this quote: "The present edition is a version of the famous Adagio in G minor for strings and organ, an original composition prepared by Remo Giazotto and based on two thematic drafts and one figured bass by Tomaso Albinoni") From "Vivaldi" (Alan Kendall, 1978): "It is perhaps unfortunate that the work that made the name of Albinoni heard so much by the public at large a few years ago - an Adagio in G minor for Organ and Strings - is not in fact by him, but mostly by his biographer Rcmo [sic] Giazotto". Marasmusine ( talk) 21:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
I removed this adjective and it was quickly put back, so I'll put my mild objection here. The "neo-" is a nod to the likelyhood that this work was mostly written in the 20th century. I understand that. But in my mind, "neo-baroque" incorporating baroque influences into a more modern palatte... something like Respighi's The Birds, or Stravinsky's Pulcinella. This piece is more of a "pastiche"... written so close to the Baroque style as to convince people that it actually was written two hundred years before. In my opinion, that's not neo-baroque. A minor quibble, though, so I'll archive it here. -- DavidRF ( talk) 22:39, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
Minor quibble: the baroqueness is not superficial; not that the modern techniques added are superficial either, but are they so fundamental that one would say that had Albinoni access to them, he would not have incorporated them in a way similar to that presented in the piece before us? It seems to me something like this supports DavidRF and the success of the traditional attribution. But one thing is certain: if this be a hoax, let's have more of them! 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 02:50, 3 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 70.89.232.180
I removed the italicized part (by me here) of this little paragraph today:
It seems to me that WP is not in the business of reviewing classical music or of speading that type pf BBC opinions around, ending an article like that to influence music lovers, negatively or positively. The reference should probably also be removed, as I assume it was given to put some clout behind that slur. SergeWoodzing ( talk) 14:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't even sound like Albinoni, whose authentic(ated) music never sounds as depressed as this piece ('the most beautiful ever written', to quote the silly juvenile writer further up). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:05, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Please don't confuse two questions, whether Giazotto actually found a manuscript fragment from Albinoni (uncertain?), and whether this work is largely composed or at least inspired by Albinoni (close but probably so). Certain parts seem to be obviously in the style of Albinoni and a close derivative of his work, so it seems arguably appropriate to call this Albinoni's Adagio, and certainly Giazotto felt so. (Even if it was a "hoax," the work would still be an imitation of Albinoni.)
Also the title of the article should be "Albinoni's Adagio in G minor," since that is the way the work is known.
in any way, anymore. Case closed.-- Galassi ( talk) 20:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Please see new citation added for sources on similarity of piece to other albinoni work. Note that it is certainly not "no one": the question is open according to several commentators. While I do not claim to be a musical expert, it seems the dispute over attribution is a live and legitimate one. The dispute over the manuscript is distinct from the question of how much of Albinoni in style or subtance was borrowed by Giazotto; no one has ever questioned that Giazotto made substantial additions of his own, but still the question is whether it is better called Albinoni's or Giazotto's adagio (or both men's). Reasonable people differ about that, but there certainly is a strong dispute. --added by 70.89.232.180
The point is that the analysis of the music provided is one which any one can then perform in a listening test; the attribution to Albinoni itself is widespread, and claiming that it is uncontested that Giazotto composed it without any borrowing from Albinoni seems clearly wrong. It seems to me you are engaged in reverting edits (two back to back complete reversions of all my edits) to establish a non-neutral point of view. WP:POV. So I reverted your undo of my edit for violation of reversion policy. However, I agree need to find better analysis cite per WP:RS guidelines. Perhaps the way forward is to separate out the question of similarity of work to other Albinoni (the traditional attribution to Albinoni attests to the success of the imitation) from more particular though very interesting questions about Giazotto's role in a musical hoax (the manuscript issues). Regarding the WP:RS, the source is making a claim about his analysis of the music, not making technical claims regarding the manusript. It seems to me this similarity is one thing that contributed to the success of the hoax by an admirer of Albinoni (if there was a hoax), but that also means that the work may be said to be derivative from Albinoni and the traditional attribution has an arguably good foundation. Further note that the expert sources above cited even by the pro-Giazotto view include qualifiers present in my version and lacking in the reversions by Galassi.-- 70.89.232.180 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 02:15, 3 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180
As I said, even some of the sources on your side, or rather on the side of claiming that Giazotto composed "most" of it, introduce qualifiers you remove. Also, you are conflating two disputes: the manuscript, and the influence of Albinoni in the work, which goes directly to the question of balancing attribution claims. As far as the cite, I removed it for now. Note that three back to back reversions of all my edits to establish non-neutral point of view appears to be a violation of the reversion policy. The "hoax" article you give just cites back to this as far as I can see: how does it establish new evidence on influence of Albinoni in the Adagio? --added by 70.89.232.180, 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 03:13, 3 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180
Well, it would certainly be good to have a list on each side; but how is it a good idea, for the sake of avoiding a weasel word, to go to falsehoods? For it is false to say that "no one" thinks any part of the adagio is in the style of Albinoni's other works; on the contrary, for most of the time the piece has been around, it was generally considered to be exclusively by Albinoni. The expert consensus is NOT that the piece has "NOTHING" to do with Albinoni: you keep on conflating two separate questions: the one regarding the manuscript (the hoax), and the question of whether the piece imitates Albinoni. The success of the hoax, if there was one, suggests that the piece to most listeners does successfully imitate Albinoni, and even the experts your side cites use weasel words like "most" describing the probable source. I think you are missing the forest for the trees: there is at least a strong resemblance to what no one questions as Albinoni's work here, even if Giazotto "wrote" the entire thing. Giazotto would have gotten nowhere trying to pull this off as the work of Beethoven etc. I don't see any evidence of an expert consensus that the piece is not influenced by Albinoni, nor any expert consensus that the piece is not properly called "Adagio in G after Albinoni" or in the style of Albinoni. The traditional attribution has a good defense, and this issue (as opposed to the manuscript/hoax question) is open and NOT settled. To clarify, I'm inclined to think Giazotto wrote almost all of it myself, but that is different from saying that some attribution should not be given to Albinoni, or that Giazotto was not consciously imitating and deriving a great deal from Albinoni's works, --and I can't see how you can seriously claim that it is uncontested that "NOTHING" of Albinoni lives in this Adagio, especially given the particular reception this piece has enjoyed. In fact, you have cited not a single piece of expert opinion that says there is no imitation of Albinoni in this piece, whereas I at least have cited the analysis of listeners which show parts of it are derivative from Albinoni, as well as the historical reception of the piece. How does one conclude from this that you are correct in asserting that it is universally agreed that "NOTHING" of the Adagio must be attributed to Albinoni? My position at least keeps the question alive, whereas you seem to be deciding things ahead of time for the reader, breaking the WP:NPOV policy and I think the best spirit of wikipedia--to err on the side of including the best arguments for each position, rather than pre-selecting the winner for the reader. In any case, I believe it is against wikipedia policy to unilaterally revert all of someone's edits three times in a row, absent "vandalism" or some egregious violation. The only real violation here is a position you disagree with: that the Adagio is influenced by Albinoni, and so that the attribution has some reasonable basis. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 05:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180-- 70.89.232.180
I am not sure what part of this you are objecting to? Please try to respond to my specific points. Regarding "daft theory," the Adagio had in fact commonly been attributed at least in part to Albinoni, which required some sense of a similarity in the work. Furthermore, you do not provide any source that claims the Adagio has no musical similarity to any part of Albinoni (let alone "universal" assent!), whereas I have given sources to the contrary (albeit laymen); though I would think the point is fairly obvious given the historical reception of the piece. Your reversion is now the fourth complete undo of my edits, violating wikipedia policy, and you also do not respond to the WP:NPOV objection. On both these counts, I am justified in undoing your blanket reversions. Finally, you are bootstrapping one narrow thesis regarding the manuscript/hoax into an unproven and implausible claim, i.e. if you will, a daft theory, that the Adagio has absolutely no similarity to or derivation from anything in Albinoni. Even taking it as a hoax, the hoax is still an imitation of Albinoni. I am not saying that the piece is not substantially different from what Albinoni would have or could have written, but I am denying your assertion that (1) there is "NOTHING" at all in the Adagio of Albinoni--nothing by way of derivation, imitation, or inspiration--and (2) that this is universally agreed to. I can, if you wish, go line by line and word by word and defend each of my edits. For example, I would like to get rid of "primarily" in the first sentence ("primarily composed by"), but I can't because some of the expert sources cited in your side say that it was "mostly composed by Giazotto" rather than "entirely." If you wish to be very strict, you can turn that to "primarily or entirely," which I had as one of my prior edits (that you of course undid). In general, regarding the style of the piece, from what sources I could find on the web, some regard it as a "pastiche" of elements similar to Albinoni and non-Albinoni elements, others regard it as entirely and easily distinguishable from Albinoni, and still others regard sections as derivative or imitative of Albinoni. I don't see any evidence for your point of view that there is universal agreement that the piece has "NOTHING" to do with Albinoni, even among the experts. So this is definitely a WP:NPOV violation. And I might add, Giazotto admired Albinoni, and you may be overlooking possibilities arising from that aspect of the "hoax." 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 17:19, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
I am not disagreeing that was written by Giazotto; however, the question in dispute is not who wrote the piece, but whether any parts are imitative of Albinoni such that the attribution is entirely wrong. Commonly it is said as being "after Albinoni." I agree that "arranged by Giazotto" is incorrect, as it was written by Giazotto. The manuscript/hoax question is NOT the same question as whether the piece "borrows" elements from Albinoni such that at least some attribution to Albinoni is defensible. I believe it is an illegitimate non-neutral POV, given the reception of the piece and the analysis of certain passages, to claim that it is universallly agreed that there is "NOTHING" of Albinoni in this Adagio. I therefore would insist on edits that do not pre-decide this important point in advance for all readers, especially since others do find some noticeable similarities with Albinoni's works. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:02, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
My point is that the success of the hoax testifies at least that many considered it plausibly in Albinoni's style, somewhat imitative. Let me put it this way: if I copy the principal passages and style of Shakespeare's plays and successfully for some years palm it off as Shakespeares's, does that mean that it is correct to say that Shakespeare deserves no attribution? Again, the hoax question is separable from the question of influence or imitation, or so it seems to me, and that means some partial attribution is arguably due to Albinoni. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
I don't actually ever use "after Albinoni" in the edits; but on the other hand, it is widely thought that there is influence of Albinoni here, though of course not written by him! I propose that should be made clear -- whatever technical terms you think are correct are fine. I agree we should not get bogged down in semantics. If the work arguably imitiates Albinoni, then there is some basis for crediting Albinoni in some way for the Adagio. That is certainly the point others have made before me. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180 P.s. I am not asking for anything to be changed!! I am asking that the current version NOT be reverted! 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180 Again (to be perfectly clear): I am the one who authored the version with "whatever inspired him" etc., simply to make clear that writing is different from the question of what he was looking to in writing it, which seems certain at least to me, given Giazotto's life's work and given the piece itself, to have been Albinoni! The question is why not let the current version STAND; which Galassi continually reverts. i.e. I agree with you current version is FINE. I am the one arguing against changes, i.e. REVERSIONS, from the version you (DavidRF) have been looking at. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:31, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
"Primarily" is due to the expert sources cited still hedging and saying "mostly"; I would prefer to get rid of it but felt constrained by the wording of some of the sources and wikipedia policy to keep it--but you can get rid of it. The other changes I disagree with but perhaps I can revise to make acceptable. The point is there are cites to laymen on the similarity (which were reverted for reasons I understand), BUT there are no cites given to the alternative view, that there is no similarity of the Adagio to Albinoni--and I'd add this is contrary to the well known historical reception of the work. I can try to make clear that this does not impact the question of who wrote the piece. There is mention of Albinoni otherwise but only to deny that he has any influence, which seems to a non-neutral POV and actually incorrect given what we know about Giazotto and about the piece itself! The question of the influence of Albinoni in this piece is a MAJOR question, not the same as the hoax question and not one that should be pre-decided by the editors. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:45, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180 --ok tried to clean it in a direction acceptable to all. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 18:56, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
Yes I agree that we need to make the probable hoax clear (I mean that the manuscript probably didn't exist; it was never denied I think that Giazotto wrote most of it), but I think that is clear as it stands. I think we need to give some respect to all those who are struck by the similarity to Albinoni, which is very plausible given the piece, its reception, and Giazotto's own life and admiration for Albinoni, without any way undermining the very strong evidence that Giazotto wrote all of it. I think the current version does that, but let me know if you disagree. I would add a hoax is not necessarily a bad thing, at least not to all of us (assuming the piece is a good one). 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 19:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180 . .- @DavidRF, thank you for restoring my "inspiration" phrase. (though I still think on the whole this gives insufficient credit to the reception of the work and to the point of view concerning its perceived and historically successful borrowing from Albinoni, so this is somewhat unbalanced or unfair to the memory of Giazotto and the Adagio, or not representing that perspective. but i'll leave the discussion here for future readers. I would underline Giazotto's admiration for Albinoni's works.) 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 19:53, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
(my apologies, it looks like you preserved my phrasing in the recent edits but did not restore it--must have clicked on the wrong versions in history.) Not much disagreement otherwise, except regarding the implications of the admiration, not always present in hoaxes, let alone such a high quality and original one. I thought "scholarly" was more accurate and less "encyclopedic" in wording based on the sources. misattributed/attributed--this is certainly very minor, didn't notice it in editing; I think correct either way (ie.. "popularly but incorrectly" attributed). Regarding the scholarly (or musicological) consensus; I looked up the cites and some of them still say "mostly" Giazotto (not entirely). It is not important to me, as I said not much disagreement there, but I was trying to follow wikipedia policy. I corrected the year written only because the sources cited do not list 1958 as the year written, only the year copyrighted and published; that may I admit be nitpicking but not incorrect. As far as my being concerned to "refute opinions no one has," I don't think that is at all fair: from my point of view I was trying to keep open a legitimate point of view that otherwise is suppressed (i.e. NPOV). I do, based on the piece itself and the historical evidence, strongly disagree with this, and I am not alone in disagreeing: "The Adagio is not inspired by Albinoni, it contains absolutely no Albinoni material, there is no discernible Albinoni influence." (I would say, as I said at the outset, for a number of reasons probably if not certainly inspired by Albinoni.) Thanks for your time and your moderation, which was very helpful in resolving the main point. I think we could all use a break from this page! 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 22:22, 5 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
It was written by Giazotto, there is nil evidence that any part of it was written by Albinoni, it doesn't sound at all like (any work actually written by) Albinoni, ergo it's not "Albinoni's adagio" or any such name. Simples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:08, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Apologies, did not mean to mislead the readers of this article, but it is true that Albinoni's Adagio is played during Greek Easter at the island of Corfu by the "Philharmonic Society of Corfu". Kindly see the following link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMKoXvCHxqQ Deep apologies form Greece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cv97035 ( talk • contribs) 14:40, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
It might be worth saving these two older edits from oblivion. They were (justifiably) undone because they contained original research, but they are IMHO interesting enough to be preserved at least on the talk page. -- 109.85.32.176 ( talk) 12:13, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
There is some resemblance between the theme of this Adagio and the beginning of the theme of the Adagio sostenuto of Louise Farrenc's first trio op. 33 for piano, violin and cello, dated 1841: the descending melodic shape itself, the harmonic progression I V V I I IV, and the principle and place of a melodic answer. There is one more note in head of the theme in Farrenc's (Eb - her theme is in Cm), and the rhythm and the answer are different in Giazotto's; he continues with a sequence whereas Farrenc comes back to V. This can be heard for example in Trio Estampe's performance at 1'01, to 1'14. -- Anne Ripoll 14:11, 8 August 2012 [ [3]
On a side note, if you listen to Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's Horn Concerto No. 4 in E-flat major, K. 495, I. Allegro Moderato, you can hear a very familiar tune from what is known as Albinoni's Adagio (a little over 3 minutes from the start). Since Mozart lived after this piece is allegedly being attributed to Albinoni, there is a probability that Mozart borrowed it. However, if Giazotto was in fact Adagio's composer, then he was basing his Adagio on Mozart's Allegro Moderato's fragment. -- LoneTiger1962 23:07, 13 March 2013 [ [4]
Nicola Schneider's Master's thesis of 2007 (written in Italian) sheds new light on the provenance of the Adagio. It doesn't offer a final answer, but it shows that Giazotto did use some kind of source. The following is an edited Google translation of the relevant passage (Nicola Schneider: La tradizione delle opere di Tomaso Albinoni a Dresda, tesi di laurea specialistica, Facoltà di musicologia dell'Università degli studi di Pavia, Cremona 2007, pp. 181–186; footnotes are from the original, additions by me are in small type and {curly brackets}):
But there is another version of the origin of the Adagio, supplied by the same Giazotto, which differs considerably from that of 1958. According to the friendly communication by Remo Giazotto's last assistant and academic collaborator, Dr. Muska Mangano (Verona), the aged musicologist, near death, explained the genesis of the Adagio again, prompted by an article by Piero Buscaroli {published on 22 September 1992}. The following is Muska Mangano's letter:
{...} Remo Giazotto tried to tell the journalist {Piero Buscaroli} the genesis of his Adagio in G minor, explaining how it was born out of pure fun and certainly not with the intention that it could serve as an accompaniment to his monograph on Albinoni. [...]
- {From Giazotto's letter to Buscaroli:} “[...] Having returned from the Aosta Valley with the University Batallion in '36, I immediately devoted myself to my Master's thesis. Torrefranca had given me the name of Albinoni for a book to be published in his series New Ways of Musical History. But war events ruined his project. However, he did not reject my suggestion to do research on Albinoni, and in January '40 the instrumental work of the dilettante veneto, numbered and unnumbered, had been studied by me. The effort had been enormous, but at that time the book was ready for a publisher. I decided to get rid of all the useless material the hardworking German librarians had sent me, and between this I also found the paper containing the four bars of the theme and the figured bass. I amused myself with realizing a melodic continuation of that thematic cue. I seemed to return to the time when Paribeni, master of harmony, had given me similar tasks. [...]”
According to this testimony, Giazotto received the fragments of the Adagio at the very beginning of the war without giving notice in his monograph published later. [1] The discrepancy between the six and the four bars of the first violin mentioned in the versions of 1958 and 1992 respectively should certainly not be taken literally because at that time Giazotto was already very ill. Questions addressed to his heirs about the existence of material relating to his book left in their possession have not produced any results so far, therefore the allegations reported are not verifiable. But shortly before Giazotto's death, Muska Mangano undertook to finish his work on Clementi, [2] and among his papers she found related studies and notes, including a modern photocopy of the fragment that had been the source of the Adagio in the edition of 1958. {...} The appearance of this document in Muska Mangano's possession must be considered an important fact since that copy is the only foothold of the original Dresden source.
The paper is a recent photocopy of a modern manuscript bearing in the top right-hand corner a stamp stating unequivocally the Dresden provenance of the original from which it was taken. Since, unfortunately, it is not a frame like those that constituted Giazotto's research material, namely positive images with writing in white on a black background (as seen reproduced in the monograph of 1945), it is difficult to evaluate this document. It should be noted immediately that the copy does not reproduce the basso continuo in print of which one has read many times, but its manual transcription in a handwriting that appears to belong to the first half of the twentieth century. The transcriber was evidently German – as indicated by the title {Albinoni’s Trio Sonate G moll} – and wrote down the entire figured bass, inserting the six fragmentary bars of the first violin in their place on the staves. Unfortunately, the photocopy has cut up the writing on the stamp, which thus is not decipherable, but it should be reconstructible by comparison with similar contemporary documents; the words may have contained the name either of the photo studio or of the library that is running the photograph. You can read very well the words below: “Dresden. – Lichtbild | von”. It is unclear what the doubly underlined number “7” refers to, which is located directly below the stamp; it could possibly refer to the number of bars (77 without the 'soli' in bb. 20/21), but this would be an unusual position for a number – at the top and not at the end of the piece. In any case it cannot be the beginning of a signature because in the Dresden system introduced in the years 1926–30 signatures begin with the word 'Mus.' followed by the composer's identification number (Albinoni, in this case, was given the “2199”).
Apparently, a manuscript copy of the printed source was first drawn up in Dresden, in which the melodic fragments of the first violin were then inserted, and from this manuscript the photograph was taken that came to Giazotto. From some source, however, he must have heard about the printed bass part he mentions several times. It is not clear why the Dresden library did not send a frame or a microfilm of this printed part, as they did for all the other sources. When Giazotto sold all the photographic material relating to his work on Albinoni in 1940, he could not foresee what turn the war would take. At that time, the scope of devastation the British fleet would cause in the German city shortly thereafter was unimaginable for all, which is why, perhaps, Giazotto could not calculate the value of his collection of microfilm, which preserved, at least in content, many sources that are no longer available because they burned or were dispersed. [3]
Talbot and many others have “disattributed” the Adagio to Albinoni – remember that Giazotto never claimed that the piece was all original – on purely stylistic grounds. The stylistic categories to determine the authenticity of the Adagio should be applied, if anything, only to the figured bass. To facilitate a comparison of the score in Giazotto's edition, the basso continuo attested by the Dresden copy and the authentic trio sonatas [4] by Albinoni, there will be a diplomatic transcription of the page of music at the end of this chapter. When he began to elaborate the figured bass, Giazotto was perhaps mindful of the example of Nikolaus Heinrich Gerber, who under the auspices of Johann Sebastian Bach had worked out an accompaniment on the figured bass of the sonata Op. VI, 6, which Spitta reprinted in the appendix to his work on Bach. [5] A comparison of Muska Mangano's copy and the Ricordi score reveals that the bass without the figures in Giazotto's score can be found almost unchanged in the left hand of the organ. One notices slight rhythmic variations in support of the new melody and some advances designed to emphasize the essentially “romantic” character of Giazotto's piece. The original melodic fragments of the first violin are not marked as such, while many expressive and agogic indications (which at that time were not a rarity even in historical-critical editions – think of Malipiero's editorial practices) are by the modern author. The harmonic progress required by the original figures is largely respected, even if the high concentration of 9–8 suspensions, which creates a highly pathetic atmosphere, has no equivalent in the genuine trio sonatas by Albinoni.
- ^ Perhaps because of scruples about the authenticity of the fragment?
- ^ Clementi 2002 {= Muzio Clementi: Epistolario 1781–1831. A cura di Remo Giazotto. Skira, Milan 2002}.
- ^ E.g. that of the concerto for violin and orchestra Co 3 held at D-Dl, Mus. 2-O-1.
- ^ The op. I and the six sonatas So 20–25.
- ^ Giazotto 1945, p. 84, was aware of it.
-- Schneid9 ( talk) 23:51, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
@Schneid9, Thank you very much for finding valuable new information. At a quick glance, this seems to provide renewed support for giving some credit to Albinoni for parts of the Adagio, but, regardless, it is very welcome as new evidence. I hope this meets the wikipedia requirements as an expert source, at least given the scant sources we have. I will wait to see what others think or how they incorporate this into the main entry. This should open or widen the debate a bit! 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 01:20, 7 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
Ok, no one else had added the evidence provided by Schneid9, so I made some revisions. Feel free to adjust as needed, but I urge strongly that we keep the WP:NPOV policy in mind! 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 19:10, 21 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180 .. @Galassi: Please stop your practice of complete reverts of someone else's edits; in this case, clearly against wp:npov--primary source of high or at least solid evidentiary worth provided; you simply should not be deleting good evidence that albinoni was a source. If you wish, please add some good evidence on your side; that is best for discussion and thinking. But deleting reasonable opposing points of view is bad for the soul. WP:NPOV, WP:RV. 70.89.232.180 ( talk) 22:48, 21 May 2011 (UTC)70.89.232.180 -- 70.89.232.180
Is there some agreement about this:
(1) That we should make clear that the Mangano/NicolaSchneider fragment has NO known connection with Albinoni, other than Giazotto's own claim that the fragment was of Albinoni.
(2) This is more complicated: are we agreed here that there is not scholarly consensus as to the existence of a hoax, but only consensus as to Giazotto's authorship of the Adagio? We have three pages that probably should be roughly consistent (though with different areas of focus), if things are being done right: the Adagio page, the Albinoni page, and the Giazotto page. The Giazotto wiki page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remo_Giazotto ) says that Giazotto gave two accounts of the Adagio; in the second he took full credit for the piece, but in the first account he had claimed "not to have composed" the Adagio but merely "arranged" it. That suggests a hoax (the wiki page implies his second account proves the first one was a lie), but on the other hand, that wiki page also seems to say that in the first account Giazotto said he had arranged the Adagio only out of a mere fragment. That would suggest (even in his first account) that there was NOT a hoax--that he said, I found a scrap of music, and based only on that scrap, I give you this whole Adagio (leaving aside for the moment the important question as to whether the scrap has any connection with Albinoni).
To say it another way, I am wondering whether we agree that the sources support the paragraph above that begins "(1) Giazotto never claimed that the Adagio was all Albinonian."), or is the consensus (prior to the discovery of the Mangano fragment) instead that Giazotto had pulled a hoax by claiming the piece was almost entirely from Albinoni. Do we know what the sources say about the proof on the hoax: what did Giazotto himself say or knowingly go along with that supports the hoax--did he claim any basis for the work larger than "a fragment" at ANY time. (Of course there are a number of intermediate positions.) I want to make absolutely sure there is not a misunderstanding on this.
(The Adagio wiki page gives a slightly different flavor, but one that does not necessarily imply hoax: "In his account, Giazotto then constructed the balance of the complete single-movement work based on this fragmentary theme." The hoax is implicit only in the fact that "no official record of [the fragment's] presence in the collection of the Saxon State Library" was ever found--since in this wiki version Giazotto says "the balance," i.e. nearly the entirety, was his own work; and the evidence from Nicola Schneider suggests that despite the missing library record, there may have been a fragment after all, so there would not have been a hoax even in this respect.)
Let me put the question this way: can we agree that Giazotto's first account, according to all or most of the reliable sources, does not suggest a hoax UNLESS the fragment is fabricated. What I want to clarify is to what extent in the first account Giazotto gave or did not give the impression that the work was not his own but Albinoni's, for anything beyond the mere fragment. That would affect how much space and weight on the wiki page we should give the Nicola Schneider discovery, and how much weight and space to the hoax view, or other intermediate positions.
I realize this is an obscure subject and we are debating a small point, so it may time a bit of time for adequate input to come in, but thanks for any pointers. MnlCls ( talk) 20:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Asked to identify the composition by Albinoni that first sprang to mind, most music-lovers would probably name the Adagio in G minor for strings and organ, a piece originally published in 1958 and ever since a mainstay of record catalogues and chamber orchestra programmes. This is ironic, for the piece's actual composer, the musicologist and Albinoni scholar Remo Giazotto, has never claimed that the Adagio is based on more than a tiny original fragment; moreover, the existence of even that fragment has frequently been doubted since all efforts to trace it have failed.
— Michael Talbot, Tomaso Albinoni: The Venetian Composer and His World, Oxford 1990, p. v
I've just discovered another completely different version of the genesis of the Adagio. In a review of the I Musici recording, Michael Talbot wrote in 1972:
An untraced fragment of unconfirmed attribution to Albinoni allegedly reported by Torrefranca to have belonged to an unnamed private collection that eventually passed to an unidentified state library in Leipzig: this is the original source on which Giazotto’s very free reconstruction is purportedly based. Need more be said?
— Michael Talbot, The Musical Times, Vol. 113, No. 1555 (September 1972), p. 874
I'm not sure where this version comes from. It could be from the cover of the Philips record, but its ultimate source would probably be Giazotto himself. According to Lugert & Schütz (1998), there was a correspondence on the sources of the Adagio between the Saxon State Library, several musicologists and Ricordi from 1968 to 1978; I suspect the above could have been the version Giazotto (or Ricordi) gave then. Basically, however, this version is reconcilable with the Mangano/Schneider discovery:
However that may be, the Torrefranca track is probably worth following. What about this wild theory: Torrefranca found the printed bass part with the six manuscript bars of the first violin in some private collection, copied it (this would also be an explanation for the strangely un-German spelling of the German title), had it photographed in Dresden and gave the photograph to Giazotto, who later photocopied it. The original then disappeared in some library, where it is still waiting for rediscovery. (No, Galassi, I'm not going to insert this theory into the article.) -- Schneid9 ( talk) 19:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the possibility of transmission from a twentieth-century manuscript from Dresden, it is not entirely implausible that such a manuscript may have existed. SLUB Dresden has a register of manuscripts lost in WWII (Kriegsverluste), and this register lists two such lost manuscripts containing Trio Sonatas by Albinoni, both in E Major. The entry for the first
can be viewed here, and that for the second
can be viewed here. They appear to have been copied by Alfred Richter from sources at SLUB Dresden itself, with (perhaps unsurprisingly) the figured bass realised for the piano. The source used for the second manuscript (a copy of Op.3 No.2) survives, and has been digitised by SLUB Dresden,
visible here.
Alfred Richter (1846-1919), a pianist and composer, taught at the HMT in Leipzig, and perhaps the manuscript in the photocopy owned by Giazotto was also in the hand of Richter. Now, even if such a manuscript existed and was the same as that reprinted in Schneider's dissertation, that does not in itself prove that this rather extraordinary passage is by Albinoni, which I for one would be inclined to doubt. -- Irishmaestro ( talk) 00:40, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
References
Hi, I'm keeping reverted my addition about Orson Welles' use of the Adagio in The Trial (1962 film). What source would be satisfactory to maintain the information? Is IMDB alright? It is common knowledge so it'd be very easy to find a source. -- Nazroon ( talk) 19:06, 18 April 2021 (UTC)