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![]() | Richard Jenne was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 03 August 2011 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Aktion T4. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on August 18, 2005, August 18, 2006, August 18, 2007, August 24, 2011, August 24, 2013, August 24, 2015, August 24, 2016, August 24, 2018, and August 24, 2021. |
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The entry for Fritz Cropp (under Aktion_T4#Other_perpetrators) seems incongrous with the other entries, which deal specifically with the punishment and fate of the perps, whereas Cropp's reads more like a general biography.
I would suggest something along the following lines (ref de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Cropp):
Fritz Cropp responsible for patient transfers (as the superior of Herbert Linden), interned in Neuengamme, deemed “politically unacceptable” by the state denazification committee in Oldenburg, banned from involvement in politics, died in 1984. 81.105.46.48 ( talk) 03:18, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Under Gassing the statement "(random ashes, since the victims were cremated en masse)" needs "citation needed" as citation 86 does not support this statement. Whereas in Witold's report on page 58, it states, referring to the Birkenau new crematoriums: "each crematorium had eight stands, two corpses to be put into each stand." If Birkenau's new crematoriums where a solution to create expedient cremations(with no ashes returned to loved ones)and they where cremating 2 corpses per stand. It makes the uncited claim that "random ashes, since victims were cremated en masse" dubious. Please either find a citation or remove that claim as I believe there is no citation and its a presumptive statement based on "common sense", rather than a citable fact. However a locked article with presumptive uncitable claims can be dangerous. As they can add fuel to the other side of the pendulum to add fuel to a claim of lack of credibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:E87D:A37F:5FCA:AE81 ( talk) 16:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
For clarity this statement is referring to cremations occurring in "special treatment (Sonderbehandlung) centres.". Not Birkenau. In Witold's report. It states cremains of people that where cremated in concentration camps where spread in fields to be used as fertilizer. Not returned to loved ones. Which makes the original statement even more dubious. Since you first have to answer the question of which "special treatment center"? Where? before you could fact find a citation for their cremation procedures to prove the cremains returned where random.
In conclusion: Dont do that big dog. It can only help to split the camp into various states of delusion rather than help create a consensus based on fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:E87D:A37F:5FCA:AE81 ( talk) 17:16, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
I reverted an uncited mass change of "killing" to "murder" and similar words following a similar mass change at Hartheim Euthanasia Centre. Editors here may be interested in the reasoning and the discussion at The verb "murder". Bermicourt ( talk) 08:10, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Killing is unambiguous but facility isn't. Keith-264 ( talk) 14:35, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia defines genocide as "the intentional killing of a people in whole or in part." It would be inaccurate and inappropriate to refer to the Holocaust as the "mass murder of Jewish people", because that obscures the intent not just to harm, but to intentionally eradicate, a particular group of people on the basis of some shared characteristic or culture-- hence why the page on the Holocaust accurately describes it as "the genocide of European Jews during WWII."
Multiple academics have explored disabled people as a group targeted by genocide and several have explicitly looked at Aktion T4 in this way ( link 1) ( link 2) ( link 3). If people with disabilities were explicitly mentioned under the Genocide Convention, Aktion T4 would be unequivocally considered an act of genocide. Therefore, the mention or lack thereof of a particular people in a diplomatic document-- rather than the type and intent of acts visited upon those people-- is serving as the deciding factor on how we label their mass murder. It would probably be too contentious to replace all uses of 'mass murder' in this document with 'genocide,' but I feel the discourse around this subject at least merits mention in the article. Rhi43 ( talk) 18:12, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
One editor is changing the term "involuntary euthanasia" to mass murder. The effect of the involuntary euthanasia may have a lot of deaths, the Germans called it euphemistic euthanasia. I don't think it is correct to call it bluntly mass murder. There are enough sources to back up "involuntary euthanasia". The Banner talk 23:25, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Aktion T4 article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
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![]() |
![]() | Richard Jenne was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 03 August 2011 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Aktion T4. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on August 18, 2005, August 18, 2006, August 18, 2007, August 24, 2011, August 24, 2013, August 24, 2015, August 24, 2016, August 24, 2018, and August 24, 2021. |
This page has archives. Sections older than 4 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
The entry for Fritz Cropp (under Aktion_T4#Other_perpetrators) seems incongrous with the other entries, which deal specifically with the punishment and fate of the perps, whereas Cropp's reads more like a general biography.
I would suggest something along the following lines (ref de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Cropp):
Fritz Cropp responsible for patient transfers (as the superior of Herbert Linden), interned in Neuengamme, deemed “politically unacceptable” by the state denazification committee in Oldenburg, banned from involvement in politics, died in 1984. 81.105.46.48 ( talk) 03:18, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Under Gassing the statement "(random ashes, since the victims were cremated en masse)" needs "citation needed" as citation 86 does not support this statement. Whereas in Witold's report on page 58, it states, referring to the Birkenau new crematoriums: "each crematorium had eight stands, two corpses to be put into each stand." If Birkenau's new crematoriums where a solution to create expedient cremations(with no ashes returned to loved ones)and they where cremating 2 corpses per stand. It makes the uncited claim that "random ashes, since victims were cremated en masse" dubious. Please either find a citation or remove that claim as I believe there is no citation and its a presumptive statement based on "common sense", rather than a citable fact. However a locked article with presumptive uncitable claims can be dangerous. As they can add fuel to the other side of the pendulum to add fuel to a claim of lack of credibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:E87D:A37F:5FCA:AE81 ( talk) 16:50, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
For clarity this statement is referring to cremations occurring in "special treatment (Sonderbehandlung) centres.". Not Birkenau. In Witold's report. It states cremains of people that where cremated in concentration camps where spread in fields to be used as fertilizer. Not returned to loved ones. Which makes the original statement even more dubious. Since you first have to answer the question of which "special treatment center"? Where? before you could fact find a citation for their cremation procedures to prove the cremains returned where random.
In conclusion: Dont do that big dog. It can only help to split the camp into various states of delusion rather than help create a consensus based on fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:E87D:A37F:5FCA:AE81 ( talk) 17:16, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
I reverted an uncited mass change of "killing" to "murder" and similar words following a similar mass change at Hartheim Euthanasia Centre. Editors here may be interested in the reasoning and the discussion at The verb "murder". Bermicourt ( talk) 08:10, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
Killing is unambiguous but facility isn't. Keith-264 ( talk) 14:35, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia defines genocide as "the intentional killing of a people in whole or in part." It would be inaccurate and inappropriate to refer to the Holocaust as the "mass murder of Jewish people", because that obscures the intent not just to harm, but to intentionally eradicate, a particular group of people on the basis of some shared characteristic or culture-- hence why the page on the Holocaust accurately describes it as "the genocide of European Jews during WWII."
Multiple academics have explored disabled people as a group targeted by genocide and several have explicitly looked at Aktion T4 in this way ( link 1) ( link 2) ( link 3). If people with disabilities were explicitly mentioned under the Genocide Convention, Aktion T4 would be unequivocally considered an act of genocide. Therefore, the mention or lack thereof of a particular people in a diplomatic document-- rather than the type and intent of acts visited upon those people-- is serving as the deciding factor on how we label their mass murder. It would probably be too contentious to replace all uses of 'mass murder' in this document with 'genocide,' but I feel the discourse around this subject at least merits mention in the article. Rhi43 ( talk) 18:12, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
One editor is changing the term "involuntary euthanasia" to mass murder. The effect of the involuntary euthanasia may have a lot of deaths, the Germans called it euphemistic euthanasia. I don't think it is correct to call it bluntly mass murder. There are enough sources to back up "involuntary euthanasia". The Banner talk 23:25, 15 March 2024 (UTC)