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Dear fellow editors: EEEyikes! Will everybody please settle down?
First of all, the statement that a doctor of jurisprudence degree is not a doctoral degree is not only incorrect, it is nonsensical. A doctorate is not a doctorate? I think maybe we're confusing terminologies here.
A doctorate is a doctorate, by definition. (The fact that this statement is tautological does not make it any less true.) Whether a JD is considered a "terminal" degree is of course a separate and more technical issue (the answer to which depends on what is meant by a terminal degree) and depends on the varied and technical use of the term "terminal."
A JD is a professional degree, not a "research" degree like a Ph.D. However, a JD is a doctorate. An MD is a doctorate. A DVM is a doctorate. This is not rocket science.
Persons who have a JD are, I believe, properly addressed in academia as "doctor." When I earned my undergraduate degree in accounting, the head of the department of business administration at the university had a JD (and no Ph.D. or other doctorate), and everyone at the university --including all the Ph.D.s in the other departments of the business school -- referred to him as "Dr."
The statement that the American Bar Association is a professional and not an academic body is patently incorrect. Not only is the ABA a professional body, it is also an academic body in the sense that it is the only national accrediting body for law schools in the United States. Not only is the ABA the accrediting body, but many if not most state supreme courts will not even allow you to sit for the bar exam unless you have attended an ABA accredited (i.e., ABA "approved") law school, or you are already licensed in another state. (California is one notable exception, and California also has its own accrediting body for California law schools, including those schools that are not ABA-accredited.)
The ABA also promulgates model rules for professional conduct for lawyers, which rules are adopted in modified form by many states. I haven't looked lately, but I believe the editor who stated that the ABA has a pronouncement about lawyers using the term "doctor" was correct. The fact that JDs outside academia do not usually refer to themselves as "doctor" is irrelevant to the question of whether a JD is a "doctorate," as is the fact that even in academia many JDs might not use the appellation either.
For an example of how the JD is treated in academia, please refer to the AACSB accreditation rules (for business schools). Yours, Famspear 20:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
After edit conflict.
Famspear is mistaken in his first claim, I'm afraid; a Juris Doctor is no more a doctorate than a rubber duck is a duck. He seems to be assuming that the name makes the thing, but it doesn't; "doctorate" signifies a degree at a certain level, and a J.D. isn't at that level. That people at his university called someone with a J.D. "Dr" is interesting, but tells us nothing; they might have misunderstood the nature of his dgree, or have been being polite (or sarcastic)... Besides, people tend to assume that their colleagues have doctorates even when they haven't; I've often heard a colleague of mine referred to as "Dr" even though his D.Phil. is as yet unfinished. --
Mel Etitis (
Μελ Ετητης)
21:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Wikiant: Well, no, when fellow editor Mel Etitis says that "despite its name, the J.D. degree is not a doctoral level degree [ . . . and that the J.D.] is a first professional degree and does not confer the title of 'doctor'" and I point to actual instances where people in an academic setting do refer to a person holding the JD as "doctor," I am simply giving an instance that negates the statement by Mel Etitis. That is not an argumentum ad verecundiam. An argumentum ad verecundiam is an inappropriate appeal to authority. If people refer to the man as "doctor" I am not making an inappropriate appeal to authority, I am pointing out an actual situation where Mel Etitis' statement does not hold true. Maybe it's the only example in the whole universe (and maybe you or Mel Etitis or somebody else can show that the example was an anomaly). By contrast, if I were to say "a juris doctorate is a doctoral level degree simply because professor so-and-so says it is," that might be a fallacious ad verecundiam argument.
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck, and people are actually calling it a duck, then those facts are at least "some evidence" (as we say in law) that it is a duck. Doesn't necessarily mean that it really is a duck -- but pointing out the evidence is not an argumentum ad verecundiam. What we are saying is that we have "some evidence" it is a duck, and if anybody has evidence to the contrary then bring that evidence in, and let everybody look at it.
The diploma reads "doctor." If the term "juris doctor" contains the word "doctor," and you say it's not a doctorate, then pointing out the fact that it says "doctor" right on the diploma is not a fallacy. Further, the burden of proof is not on me to prove that the "juris doctor" degree is a "doctoral" level degree or that the "juris doctor" degree does not "confer" the title of "doctor." I didn't insert the verbiage into the article. My brother Mel Etitis inserted the statement, into the Wikipedia article, that a juris doctor degree is NOT a doctorate, etc. Under the rules of Wikipedia (specifically verifiability), the burden, so to speak, is on him, not me.
I'm a little puzzled by your statement that "Virtually all U.S. students refer to their teachers as either "doctor" (regardless of whether they hold Ph.D.'s or MS/MA's) or "professor" (regardless of whether or not they are full professors . . . ] Obviously I don't know where you went to school, but I can tell you that my experience is just the opposite. In college, most students referred to those holding doctorates as "doctor" and those holding only master's degrees as "Mr." or "Mrs." The term "professor" in college was used relatively rarely in most of my classes (even with instructors who held the title assistant professor, associate professor, or full professor). Most of the time it was either "Dr." or "Mr." or "Mrs.", as applicable.
In law school, by contrast, despite the fact that every instructor but one held a J.D. and some also had a Ph.D., the term "doctor" was almost never used. Go figure. If anything, that fact at least partially supports the argument of my brother Mel Etitis -- although perhaps not really, since the Ph.D.s weren't referred to as "doctor" either.
My "argument" that the department chair at my business school was a J.D. was not fallacious, for the simple reason that it was not my "argument." It was a fact. Brother Mel Etitis contends that "despite its name, the J.D. degree is not a doctoral level degree [ . . . and that the J.D.] is a first professional degree and does not confer the title of 'doctor'. I simply pointed out at least one instance where his statement does not hold true. Saying that the main requirement to be chair is that one isn't doing any meaningful research or teaching completely misses that point.
I argue that the statement that "despite its name, the J.D. degree is not a doctoral level degree [ . . . and that the J.D.] is a first professional degree and does not confer the title of 'doctor' has not been verified for purposes of Wikipedia. It's not up to me to verify it, and it's not up to me to prove it's not true; I didn't insert it in the article in the first place.
Just as a helpful hint, and aside from anyone taking on the task of providing support for the position that "despite its name, the J.D. degree is not a doctoral level degree [ . . . and that the J.D.] is a first professional degree and does not confer the title of 'doctor', a better way to attack my "arguments" -- if you want to do that -- would be to show that the example I gave (of the JD who was called "doctor" in a business school setting) was really an isolated case, and that in the vast majority of cases JDs outside law schools are not referred to as "doctor," even when they teach business law in a business school, etc. Hey, that might actually be the case. In other words, I might be wrong and Mel Etitis might be right! The point is, let's not put statements in Wikipedia like "despite its name, the J.D. degree is not a doctoral level degree [ . . . and the J.D.] does not confer the title of doctor" unless we add something to Wikipedia to verify the statement. Yours, Famspear 05:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I forgot -- thanks for the quote from Encyclopedia Britannica. I'm not sure that the quote is "some evidence" that a juris doctor is not really a "doctorate" but at least it's in the record now. I don't agree with your reasoning, though. A master's degree is one to two years, according to the quote. A juris doctorate is three years (about 88 to 97 semester hours at most law schools in the U.S.) So it doesn't seem to follow that "the J.D. is a master's level degree." If anything, the quote supports the argument that the J.D. IS a doctorate, since "a doctorate usually involves a lengthier period of work." (A J.D. ALWAYS involves a lengthier period of work than one or two years.) But, thanks for the quote, anyway. Yours, Famspear 05:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The J.D. is not a doctoral level degree. That someone chooses to call it that means nothing. There is at least one college that calls all of it B.S.-level alumnae "doctor" because of some tradition, akin to the Italian use of Dottore. Everyone agreed that the old D.Pharm., before the recent changes, was a master's-level degree. When I see surveys of "highest level of education completed" I often see the J.D. lumped with professional master's degrees like a M.Arch. (usually 2-3 years) or M.S.W. or the like. The D.C. was often lumped in there, but they're made an effort to get more people to have completed a B.S. first to raise their standing, as pharmacy is trying to do. As mentioned, in many fields the terminal degree is a master's, for example in many artistic fields (M.F.A.). I clearly recall arguments, reported in The Chronicle of Higher Ed., over whether a J.D. holder should be a university's president given the lack of a terminal/doctoral degree. I also point out that following a J.D. one still takes a master's or (higher) doctorate as the next step, if desired. In my experience, J.D. holders occasionally use "Doctor" in very formal settings in academia--if speaking at a graduation ceremony--but for the most part, no. Certainly, I consider them to have a degree that is the equivalent of a 3-year M.Arch. Since there is no pre-law curriculum, it just isn't comparable to a Ph.D. biologist who took a B.S. and M.S. in the same subject. JJL 15:26, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
This matter has been settled with authoritative research in the current J.D. article. Zoticogrillo ( talk) 06:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I was just wondering if we should add more information such as the New Zealand degree system under the Asia and Oceania for Degree systems by regions section or at least expand on it. Also, I was wondering, for the degree J.D., is it more appropriate to call it 'Juris Doctor' or the 'Doctor of Jurisprudence'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ConspiracyMonkey ( talk • contribs) 04:05, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
It looks like several Wikipedia articles that cover the history of academic degrees (e.g. PhD, doctorate, academic degree, postgraduate education) have been cut and pasted or edited from a reference mentioned as "the Catholic encyclopedia", and sometimes contradict each other.
For example, it is stated in some of those aforementioned articles that the Master's degree in medieval times was awarded as the terminal degree in the Faculty of Arts, after which one could proceed to the higher faculties (Theology, Law, etc.) where the terminal degree was that of Doctor. However, the postgraduate education article at the same time implies at one point that master's degrees were also awarded in the higher faculties (prior to a doctorate) and that practice actually varied from country to country. On the other hand, although there appears to be a consensus in the various Wiki articles that the master's degree conferred the right to teach in th Faculty of Arts, it is unclear whether a doctorate was actually required to teach in the higher faculties (which doesn't appear to be the case in England for example where doctorates were rare). There is also conflicting information in the different articles on the number of years required to earn a bachelor's, master's and doctor's degrees in the medieval universities and on what the requirements were for each degree (again, practice probably varied from country to country).
That seems all confusing to me and I suspect that there may be inaccurate information in some of the Wiki articles. I suggest someone who is an expert on the topic review the "History" sections in all relevant articles and clean them up, preferably using more than one reference and avoiding cutting and pasting. 200.168.20.118 ( talk) 10:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure if anyone noticed but why isn't there mention of the MD or medical degree? I know there is an article on it but the list of academic degrees seems fairly incomplete without such a major degree. Obviously it is not an obscure profession and requires some of the longest training among any occupation. Though it does not follow the usual route of a doctorate, neither does the JD and it has its own section on the list of degrees. So why not medicine? When I mean medicine, I mean physicians. Hitokirishinji 05:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
The article will be enriched, users better informed, and the Wikipedia community benefitted by mention of the J.D. among professional degrees, since it is one of the major professional degrees. An editor has removed content referring to the J.D. from the article, even though that content was relevant and verifiable. Why should the content be removed? Zoticogrillo ( talk) 01:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
References
Hi, The information on individual countries' academic titles, particularly the comparisons to the U.S. system that they contain (see Germany, Russia), is not based on fact, but prevailing opinions held by people within those countries. It would be far more constructive to provide factual information such as that contained in the sections on France, Italy and Poland rather than to describe how one country's academic degree is higher / lower / on the same level as an academic degree in another country. 85.207.119.153 ( talk) 12:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The section on Mexico is completely inaccurate: reflects the point of view of private education, does not cite official references such as the Ministry of Education guidelines for Degree homologation, has advertising statements such as “The ITAM is one of the best universities in the World”, and mention unregulated education programs such as “Diplomados” which are not degrees and have no international homologation. Regards, C.M. May 11, 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.215.25.232 ( talk) 15:50, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
The entry on Germany simply asserted as fact the equivalency of the traditional Magister and Diplom degrees to what it termed a "master's degree." I changed it to indicate that this is the local, but not universal, opinion, and gave a specific example of such an exception. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bakesnobread ( talk • contribs) 18:32, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
In edit [1] by User:Bakesnobread some changes were done with respect to equivalence of the traditional German degrees (which are now in the process of being phased out and replaced by the Bologna bachelor+master system). However, the statements don't differentiate sufficiently IMO and are unclear.
So please rethink the changes made by User:Bakesnobread and at least add some qualifications and sources. -- rtc ( talk) 17:36, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
This article implies (by ommission) that there are no universities in Africa. Roger ( talk) 10:22, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
It is written that in Brazil it is necessary to have a brazilian Masters Degree in order to join a PhD program. That is not true. It is actually quite common that one steps into the PhD right after he has completed his undergraduate degree (diploma). Most people don't do that because in the Master (mestrado) they can get a sound scientific basis, which is necessary in the PhD but isn't really the focus in the undergraduate program. Please correct this.
This website http://www.pucpr.br/processos_seletivos/mestrado_doutorado/ (a graduate program from a brazilian university) explains that also. But it can easily verified in the rules of any other graduate program.
-- Gabriel NR 17:13, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Having studied/taught in many universities brazil-wide, I am pretty sure that most curses take 5-6 year to complete, only the licenciatura degrees taking 4-5 years; I am going to modify that, even though right now I don't have statistics to comprove this claim.
-- Lucas Gallindo 23:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I am amazed that the hierarchy of degrees section contains no references. I propose that the section be removed entirely. I'm sure that there are plenty of references showing that an associates degree is lower (in terms of hierarchy) than a bachelors and a bachelors lower than a masters, etc. Professional degrees and combined professional/academic degrees present a multitude of problems -- many of which are specific to the specific degree in question. Wikiant ( talk) 01:12, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
I've put cite tags on several of the degrees listed under the highest category. I'm not sure that the categorization should exist at all given the lack of references. However, the tagged degrees are more in need than others of supporting references. Wikiant ( talk) 12:49, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I have found that some of the links in the ref. sec. are non functioning, can you please update the link, cite another source or remove the reference. Thank You. -- AbqDez ( talk) 07:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
See, when someone wants to be a doctor in Brazil, they do doutorado. But it doesn't seem to be the same in UK or USA. Looking doctorate up in the dictionary, I found: "doctor's degree." So, how's the process of getting the degree called? If doctorate is the term used to describe the degree that was gotten. Asking differently: one that has a doctor's degree is doctorate, but one that is in the process of getting it is what? Another question: if doctorate is to doctor's degree, master's degree is to...???? As a Brazilian, I may say that some terms aren't the same, even if translated. Doutorado in Portuguese means that person that got the title or that person that is studying to obtain it. I don't know if the dictionary wondered it, so I ask for help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.100.245.94 ( talk) 15:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.csvs.cz/struktura/sedv/HES_0110.pdf http://www.zcu.cz/study/dokumenty/ECTS_DS/ZCU_DS_022982.pdf. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:11, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
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Except for Academic degree#Academic title bearing (which is about Netherlands), the article says nothing about laws that forbid unauthorized use of academic degrees. There's some information implied by Validation of foreign studies and degrees but it hardly touches the core of the subject. I know for sure that such laws exist in Germany, Austria, Switzerland. https://www.audiology.org/publications-resources/document-library/laws-regulations-relating-use-degrees-designators states without citations that many laws exist in US countries, categorized into "Licensure Law", "Deceptive Trade Law" and "Use of Degree Laws". Someone please update the article with information in that respect. -- rtc ( talk) 22:26, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Dear fellow editors: EEEyikes! Will everybody please settle down?
First of all, the statement that a doctor of jurisprudence degree is not a doctoral degree is not only incorrect, it is nonsensical. A doctorate is not a doctorate? I think maybe we're confusing terminologies here.
A doctorate is a doctorate, by definition. (The fact that this statement is tautological does not make it any less true.) Whether a JD is considered a "terminal" degree is of course a separate and more technical issue (the answer to which depends on what is meant by a terminal degree) and depends on the varied and technical use of the term "terminal."
A JD is a professional degree, not a "research" degree like a Ph.D. However, a JD is a doctorate. An MD is a doctorate. A DVM is a doctorate. This is not rocket science.
Persons who have a JD are, I believe, properly addressed in academia as "doctor." When I earned my undergraduate degree in accounting, the head of the department of business administration at the university had a JD (and no Ph.D. or other doctorate), and everyone at the university --including all the Ph.D.s in the other departments of the business school -- referred to him as "Dr."
The statement that the American Bar Association is a professional and not an academic body is patently incorrect. Not only is the ABA a professional body, it is also an academic body in the sense that it is the only national accrediting body for law schools in the United States. Not only is the ABA the accrediting body, but many if not most state supreme courts will not even allow you to sit for the bar exam unless you have attended an ABA accredited (i.e., ABA "approved") law school, or you are already licensed in another state. (California is one notable exception, and California also has its own accrediting body for California law schools, including those schools that are not ABA-accredited.)
The ABA also promulgates model rules for professional conduct for lawyers, which rules are adopted in modified form by many states. I haven't looked lately, but I believe the editor who stated that the ABA has a pronouncement about lawyers using the term "doctor" was correct. The fact that JDs outside academia do not usually refer to themselves as "doctor" is irrelevant to the question of whether a JD is a "doctorate," as is the fact that even in academia many JDs might not use the appellation either.
For an example of how the JD is treated in academia, please refer to the AACSB accreditation rules (for business schools). Yours, Famspear 20:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
After edit conflict.
Famspear is mistaken in his first claim, I'm afraid; a Juris Doctor is no more a doctorate than a rubber duck is a duck. He seems to be assuming that the name makes the thing, but it doesn't; "doctorate" signifies a degree at a certain level, and a J.D. isn't at that level. That people at his university called someone with a J.D. "Dr" is interesting, but tells us nothing; they might have misunderstood the nature of his dgree, or have been being polite (or sarcastic)... Besides, people tend to assume that their colleagues have doctorates even when they haven't; I've often heard a colleague of mine referred to as "Dr" even though his D.Phil. is as yet unfinished. --
Mel Etitis (
Μελ Ετητης)
21:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Dear Wikiant: Well, no, when fellow editor Mel Etitis says that "despite its name, the J.D. degree is not a doctoral level degree [ . . . and that the J.D.] is a first professional degree and does not confer the title of 'doctor'" and I point to actual instances where people in an academic setting do refer to a person holding the JD as "doctor," I am simply giving an instance that negates the statement by Mel Etitis. That is not an argumentum ad verecundiam. An argumentum ad verecundiam is an inappropriate appeal to authority. If people refer to the man as "doctor" I am not making an inappropriate appeal to authority, I am pointing out an actual situation where Mel Etitis' statement does not hold true. Maybe it's the only example in the whole universe (and maybe you or Mel Etitis or somebody else can show that the example was an anomaly). By contrast, if I were to say "a juris doctorate is a doctoral level degree simply because professor so-and-so says it is," that might be a fallacious ad verecundiam argument.
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck, and people are actually calling it a duck, then those facts are at least "some evidence" (as we say in law) that it is a duck. Doesn't necessarily mean that it really is a duck -- but pointing out the evidence is not an argumentum ad verecundiam. What we are saying is that we have "some evidence" it is a duck, and if anybody has evidence to the contrary then bring that evidence in, and let everybody look at it.
The diploma reads "doctor." If the term "juris doctor" contains the word "doctor," and you say it's not a doctorate, then pointing out the fact that it says "doctor" right on the diploma is not a fallacy. Further, the burden of proof is not on me to prove that the "juris doctor" degree is a "doctoral" level degree or that the "juris doctor" degree does not "confer" the title of "doctor." I didn't insert the verbiage into the article. My brother Mel Etitis inserted the statement, into the Wikipedia article, that a juris doctor degree is NOT a doctorate, etc. Under the rules of Wikipedia (specifically verifiability), the burden, so to speak, is on him, not me.
I'm a little puzzled by your statement that "Virtually all U.S. students refer to their teachers as either "doctor" (regardless of whether they hold Ph.D.'s or MS/MA's) or "professor" (regardless of whether or not they are full professors . . . ] Obviously I don't know where you went to school, but I can tell you that my experience is just the opposite. In college, most students referred to those holding doctorates as "doctor" and those holding only master's degrees as "Mr." or "Mrs." The term "professor" in college was used relatively rarely in most of my classes (even with instructors who held the title assistant professor, associate professor, or full professor). Most of the time it was either "Dr." or "Mr." or "Mrs.", as applicable.
In law school, by contrast, despite the fact that every instructor but one held a J.D. and some also had a Ph.D., the term "doctor" was almost never used. Go figure. If anything, that fact at least partially supports the argument of my brother Mel Etitis -- although perhaps not really, since the Ph.D.s weren't referred to as "doctor" either.
My "argument" that the department chair at my business school was a J.D. was not fallacious, for the simple reason that it was not my "argument." It was a fact. Brother Mel Etitis contends that "despite its name, the J.D. degree is not a doctoral level degree [ . . . and that the J.D.] is a first professional degree and does not confer the title of 'doctor'. I simply pointed out at least one instance where his statement does not hold true. Saying that the main requirement to be chair is that one isn't doing any meaningful research or teaching completely misses that point.
I argue that the statement that "despite its name, the J.D. degree is not a doctoral level degree [ . . . and that the J.D.] is a first professional degree and does not confer the title of 'doctor' has not been verified for purposes of Wikipedia. It's not up to me to verify it, and it's not up to me to prove it's not true; I didn't insert it in the article in the first place.
Just as a helpful hint, and aside from anyone taking on the task of providing support for the position that "despite its name, the J.D. degree is not a doctoral level degree [ . . . and that the J.D.] is a first professional degree and does not confer the title of 'doctor', a better way to attack my "arguments" -- if you want to do that -- would be to show that the example I gave (of the JD who was called "doctor" in a business school setting) was really an isolated case, and that in the vast majority of cases JDs outside law schools are not referred to as "doctor," even when they teach business law in a business school, etc. Hey, that might actually be the case. In other words, I might be wrong and Mel Etitis might be right! The point is, let's not put statements in Wikipedia like "despite its name, the J.D. degree is not a doctoral level degree [ . . . and the J.D.] does not confer the title of doctor" unless we add something to Wikipedia to verify the statement. Yours, Famspear 05:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I forgot -- thanks for the quote from Encyclopedia Britannica. I'm not sure that the quote is "some evidence" that a juris doctor is not really a "doctorate" but at least it's in the record now. I don't agree with your reasoning, though. A master's degree is one to two years, according to the quote. A juris doctorate is three years (about 88 to 97 semester hours at most law schools in the U.S.) So it doesn't seem to follow that "the J.D. is a master's level degree." If anything, the quote supports the argument that the J.D. IS a doctorate, since "a doctorate usually involves a lengthier period of work." (A J.D. ALWAYS involves a lengthier period of work than one or two years.) But, thanks for the quote, anyway. Yours, Famspear 05:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The J.D. is not a doctoral level degree. That someone chooses to call it that means nothing. There is at least one college that calls all of it B.S.-level alumnae "doctor" because of some tradition, akin to the Italian use of Dottore. Everyone agreed that the old D.Pharm., before the recent changes, was a master's-level degree. When I see surveys of "highest level of education completed" I often see the J.D. lumped with professional master's degrees like a M.Arch. (usually 2-3 years) or M.S.W. or the like. The D.C. was often lumped in there, but they're made an effort to get more people to have completed a B.S. first to raise their standing, as pharmacy is trying to do. As mentioned, in many fields the terminal degree is a master's, for example in many artistic fields (M.F.A.). I clearly recall arguments, reported in The Chronicle of Higher Ed., over whether a J.D. holder should be a university's president given the lack of a terminal/doctoral degree. I also point out that following a J.D. one still takes a master's or (higher) doctorate as the next step, if desired. In my experience, J.D. holders occasionally use "Doctor" in very formal settings in academia--if speaking at a graduation ceremony--but for the most part, no. Certainly, I consider them to have a degree that is the equivalent of a 3-year M.Arch. Since there is no pre-law curriculum, it just isn't comparable to a Ph.D. biologist who took a B.S. and M.S. in the same subject. JJL 15:26, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
This matter has been settled with authoritative research in the current J.D. article. Zoticogrillo ( talk) 06:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I was just wondering if we should add more information such as the New Zealand degree system under the Asia and Oceania for Degree systems by regions section or at least expand on it. Also, I was wondering, for the degree J.D., is it more appropriate to call it 'Juris Doctor' or the 'Doctor of Jurisprudence'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ConspiracyMonkey ( talk • contribs) 04:05, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
It looks like several Wikipedia articles that cover the history of academic degrees (e.g. PhD, doctorate, academic degree, postgraduate education) have been cut and pasted or edited from a reference mentioned as "the Catholic encyclopedia", and sometimes contradict each other.
For example, it is stated in some of those aforementioned articles that the Master's degree in medieval times was awarded as the terminal degree in the Faculty of Arts, after which one could proceed to the higher faculties (Theology, Law, etc.) where the terminal degree was that of Doctor. However, the postgraduate education article at the same time implies at one point that master's degrees were also awarded in the higher faculties (prior to a doctorate) and that practice actually varied from country to country. On the other hand, although there appears to be a consensus in the various Wiki articles that the master's degree conferred the right to teach in th Faculty of Arts, it is unclear whether a doctorate was actually required to teach in the higher faculties (which doesn't appear to be the case in England for example where doctorates were rare). There is also conflicting information in the different articles on the number of years required to earn a bachelor's, master's and doctor's degrees in the medieval universities and on what the requirements were for each degree (again, practice probably varied from country to country).
That seems all confusing to me and I suspect that there may be inaccurate information in some of the Wiki articles. I suggest someone who is an expert on the topic review the "History" sections in all relevant articles and clean them up, preferably using more than one reference and avoiding cutting and pasting. 200.168.20.118 ( talk) 10:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure if anyone noticed but why isn't there mention of the MD or medical degree? I know there is an article on it but the list of academic degrees seems fairly incomplete without such a major degree. Obviously it is not an obscure profession and requires some of the longest training among any occupation. Though it does not follow the usual route of a doctorate, neither does the JD and it has its own section on the list of degrees. So why not medicine? When I mean medicine, I mean physicians. Hitokirishinji 05:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
The article will be enriched, users better informed, and the Wikipedia community benefitted by mention of the J.D. among professional degrees, since it is one of the major professional degrees. An editor has removed content referring to the J.D. from the article, even though that content was relevant and verifiable. Why should the content be removed? Zoticogrillo ( talk) 01:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
References
Hi, The information on individual countries' academic titles, particularly the comparisons to the U.S. system that they contain (see Germany, Russia), is not based on fact, but prevailing opinions held by people within those countries. It would be far more constructive to provide factual information such as that contained in the sections on France, Italy and Poland rather than to describe how one country's academic degree is higher / lower / on the same level as an academic degree in another country. 85.207.119.153 ( talk) 12:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The section on Mexico is completely inaccurate: reflects the point of view of private education, does not cite official references such as the Ministry of Education guidelines for Degree homologation, has advertising statements such as “The ITAM is one of the best universities in the World”, and mention unregulated education programs such as “Diplomados” which are not degrees and have no international homologation. Regards, C.M. May 11, 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.215.25.232 ( talk) 15:50, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
The entry on Germany simply asserted as fact the equivalency of the traditional Magister and Diplom degrees to what it termed a "master's degree." I changed it to indicate that this is the local, but not universal, opinion, and gave a specific example of such an exception. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bakesnobread ( talk • contribs) 18:32, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
In edit [1] by User:Bakesnobread some changes were done with respect to equivalence of the traditional German degrees (which are now in the process of being phased out and replaced by the Bologna bachelor+master system). However, the statements don't differentiate sufficiently IMO and are unclear.
So please rethink the changes made by User:Bakesnobread and at least add some qualifications and sources. -- rtc ( talk) 17:36, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
This article implies (by ommission) that there are no universities in Africa. Roger ( talk) 10:22, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
It is written that in Brazil it is necessary to have a brazilian Masters Degree in order to join a PhD program. That is not true. It is actually quite common that one steps into the PhD right after he has completed his undergraduate degree (diploma). Most people don't do that because in the Master (mestrado) they can get a sound scientific basis, which is necessary in the PhD but isn't really the focus in the undergraduate program. Please correct this.
This website http://www.pucpr.br/processos_seletivos/mestrado_doutorado/ (a graduate program from a brazilian university) explains that also. But it can easily verified in the rules of any other graduate program.
-- Gabriel NR 17:13, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Having studied/taught in many universities brazil-wide, I am pretty sure that most curses take 5-6 year to complete, only the licenciatura degrees taking 4-5 years; I am going to modify that, even though right now I don't have statistics to comprove this claim.
-- Lucas Gallindo 23:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I am amazed that the hierarchy of degrees section contains no references. I propose that the section be removed entirely. I'm sure that there are plenty of references showing that an associates degree is lower (in terms of hierarchy) than a bachelors and a bachelors lower than a masters, etc. Professional degrees and combined professional/academic degrees present a multitude of problems -- many of which are specific to the specific degree in question. Wikiant ( talk) 01:12, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
I've put cite tags on several of the degrees listed under the highest category. I'm not sure that the categorization should exist at all given the lack of references. However, the tagged degrees are more in need than others of supporting references. Wikiant ( talk) 12:49, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I have found that some of the links in the ref. sec. are non functioning, can you please update the link, cite another source or remove the reference. Thank You. -- AbqDez ( talk) 07:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
See, when someone wants to be a doctor in Brazil, they do doutorado. But it doesn't seem to be the same in UK or USA. Looking doctorate up in the dictionary, I found: "doctor's degree." So, how's the process of getting the degree called? If doctorate is the term used to describe the degree that was gotten. Asking differently: one that has a doctor's degree is doctorate, but one that is in the process of getting it is what? Another question: if doctorate is to doctor's degree, master's degree is to...???? As a Brazilian, I may say that some terms aren't the same, even if translated. Doutorado in Portuguese means that person that got the title or that person that is studying to obtain it. I don't know if the dictionary wondered it, so I ask for help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.100.245.94 ( talk) 15:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.csvs.cz/struktura/sedv/HES_0110.pdf http://www.zcu.cz/study/dokumenty/ECTS_DS/ZCU_DS_022982.pdf. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:11, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
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Except for Academic degree#Academic title bearing (which is about Netherlands), the article says nothing about laws that forbid unauthorized use of academic degrees. There's some information implied by Validation of foreign studies and degrees but it hardly touches the core of the subject. I know for sure that such laws exist in Germany, Austria, Switzerland. https://www.audiology.org/publications-resources/document-library/laws-regulations-relating-use-degrees-designators states without citations that many laws exist in US countries, categorized into "Licensure Law", "Deceptive Trade Law" and "Use of Degree Laws". Someone please update the article with information in that respect. -- rtc ( talk) 22:26, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
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