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Here are additional primary sources for criticism or opponents. -- Deodar 03:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Professor Klug writes in the Jewish Forum for Justice and Human Rights about the academic boycott, in particular the analogy to the South African boycotts:
In short, the intention of the Natfhe motion - what it seeks and why - is obscure. But even if the policy and rationale were clear and unambiguous, there is a deeper problem with motions of this sort that prevents them from attracting a broad base of support: they rely on the false (or limited) analogy implied by the word "apartheid"...But as I have argued elsewhere: "The validity of the analogy does not depend on a catalogue of atrocities, however appalling".
In terms of history and motivation, the differences between the two situations are greater than the similarities. And in the end, any political action that is aimed at ameliorating the conditions of the Palestinians must be based on an analysis - not an analogy.
-- Leflyman Talk 05:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I am unsure how best to structure the article. There are key events that should be covered chronologically. The problem is that the responses to them are repetitive and could best be pulled together and organized topically. But at least some of the repetitive response to the events is necessary though in the chronological coverage in order to explain why events and people responded as they did. As a test, I have moved towards a full chronological organization. The result is that the thorough coverage of the themes in the responses is lost. Its a tough issue to which I don't have a good solution at the moment. Thoughts?-- Deodar 05:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
These should probably be documented in the article content in some way:
-- Deodar 00:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Which template is most appropriate is the question? I put on the "Arab-Israeli conflict" template initially but since then I have collobrated in the creation of the new "Israel-Palestinian Conflict" template. I just put on the "Israel-Palestinian Conflict" template today. Humus sapiens has just reverted that change claiming the Arab-Israeli conflict template is more pertinent. I disagree since the academic boycotts are specifically related to the Israel-Palestinian conflict not the wider Arab-Israeli conflict. Although I do agree that the economic boycotts are more Arab-Israeli conflict related, but that is not the topic of this article. The difference between the economic and academic boycotts is that the academic boycotts are mostly British and Europe rather than other Arab countries. I would encourage Humus sapiens to explain his reasoning for changing the template... I might be missing something. -- Deodar 21:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I just removed the following sentence:
The main issue is that according to the Guardian's corrections to this article, [9], Richard Dawkins and Colin Blakemore were mentioned as supporting and then distancing themselves from the petition erroneously.
Neither of them had originally signed or voiced their support for the petition in which Mona Baker was involved. Unless we find original sources showing their support and then their pulling of it, it would be best to classify them as just critics of that proposal. -- Deodar 05:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi there, The opening of this article mentions an "Irish group" that is pushing for the boycott as well. I'd love it if the article could add a little more information about this - there's not much right now. What group is this? Does it have any relationship with the UK groups calling for the boycott? Have they had much success? Could there be some quotes / links to their information and site? Many thanks. Harpo Hermes 10:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
IronDuke, I don't want to get into a hopeless edit war over this, but the entire world except the US and Israel considers the West Bank and Gaza "occupied." They were taken by force of arms in '67 and never relinquished. They are de facto "occupied territories" any way you look at it. Removing the word "occupied" in favour of "territories" is itself a statement of POV. I'm not going to revert your edit, but I would like to make it perfectly clear that I strongly object to it. Third party? Famousdog 14:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
If you have evidence that academic boycotts are always antisemitic in nature, provide it. Otherwise, its insulting and offensive. Famousdog 21:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
What is the significance of the Lasson paper? Where was it published? Why is it relevant? Famousdog 21:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but I have to remove this section citing a press release by SPME with the title "OVER 11,300 SCHOLARS..." In the very first paragraph they accuse the UCU of "promoting" the boycott. As I have repeatedly emphasised, UCU passed a motion calling for consultation of the membership on the possibility of a boycott. Please read Motion 30. Frankly SPME's "press release" (and the rest of their website, which emphasises combatting anti-Semitism over any discussion of "peace") strikes me as a little shrill, and as a matter of course I mistrust most 501(C)(3) "interest" groups. Famousdog 13:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
This article claims to be about international boycotts of Israel, but the only examples it mentions are from the UK. Is this because it's only in Britain that such proposals have been taken seriously? I would expect that there must be other countries that have at some stage carried out or considered academic boycotts of Israel, like the Arab countries, but I may be wrong. In any case, I think this article badly needs a more globalised view to make it clear whether or not this is a purely British phenomenon. Terraxos ( talk) 14:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Strongbow, I'm a bit confused. First you say that the lead is "too sweeping" [11], then as having "too much detail" [12]. Which would it be? Is there a happy medium? You seem quite happy with specificity when it comes to inserting the idea that "Jewish groups" are protesting, leaving out the condemnations by various academics, thinkers, and politicians. Why the narrow focus? And why in the lead? I'm happy to work with you on this, but trying to posion the well in the lead by implying that ""Jewish groups" are the only ones concerned by the boycotts is misleading at best. IronDuke 22:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
"The proposals have been opposed by a variety of ..." is kind of bad grammar. "... by various ..." would be a direct correction, but it has a dismissive connotation. How about just, "by several?" Tinguat ( talk) 23:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
a collection containing a variety of sorts of things "a great assortment of cars was on display"; "he had a variety of disorders."
(Outdent)
In fact, using the word "several" here would be original research… provided AGF was stretched a bit. According to this several means an indefinite number, more than 2 or 3 but not many. How many sources do we have?
And there are more I left out. Is this “Several?” I ask because we seem to have established that English is not my native language. Now, I’d be open to “plethora” or “cascade,” but I’m not sure they’d be encyclopedic enough. How about just “many?” IronDuke 02:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
PS: I have no idea what your sentence “I can name any number of categories of scholars and politicians, with regard to perspectives on Israel, whom is not represented in those three, and I'm sure for any other group sharing the position” was supposed to mean, but being verbs take “who” (subjective) not “whom” (objective). For example, “Who is he?” Not “Whom is he?” IronDuke 02:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
"Many" works for me. Thanks for your thoughts on grammar, but rest assured it was a typo rather than a grammatical mistake. Tinguat ( talk) 11:21, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I need to explain my thinking in moving the criticism section later. This was one step in a radical restructuring of the whole article that I think should be done. For two reasons I don't want to go ahead and do the restructuring in one go: a) it is not something that I find very easy to do - I find it easier to work incrementally - and b) it is not a very good way to get consensus.
Why do I think the whole article needs restructuring? Because presenting a whole load of criticism right at the front of the article is not conducive to NPOV. On the other hand, the article must reflect accurately how these proposals have been received, and it is fair to say that they have on the whole been received negatively. When I say "on the whole", I mean that that is the overall effect when many different viewponts are taken together. There have been a range of responses from "great idea" through "perhaps, but", to "no thanks, not a good idea", "appalling suggestion" and "outrageous, antisemitic". All of these need to be mentioned.
There are various possibilities for the article structure.
1) Many good articles on controversial subjects do not have a separate criticism section at all but interweave all the relevant points of view through the whole discussion. This might work well on this article. Under each subheading we would explain what the proposal was and then how the controversy developed. When presenting statements by Tony Blair etc., we would have to be sure which proposal they followed.
2) Change the "Criticism" heading to "Responses". In that section present the favourable views first, then the mixed ones, then the unfavourable ones. If we adopt this structure it will not be appropriate to match the criticisms with the counter-arguments by the boycott proponents. All the proponents' views will have to be grouped together at the start of the article before the Responses.
3) Again, have a "Responses" section but group the different opinions under headings such as "Criticism that boycotts are antisemitic" and "Boycotts and academic freedom". This would be easier to do on this article than on some others, as the points made do seem to fall into groups. However, it might too easily lead us into the trap of original synthesis.
Hope this helps. Looking forward to reading people's views on it. Itsmejudith ( talk) 10:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
<<Obligatory sigh.>> CJ, at best, "refuted " admits of more than one definition, with a definite preference for "disproved." If you look here or here or here or here, you will see a discussion of journalistic style that shows unambiguously I'm correct. Or take a dictionary definiton here. There are some dictionaries which allow -- only as a secondary definition -- the idea that to refute something is to argue against it. But the main definition strongly implies disproof. Is that what you wanted to say? That Butler had disproved the charge of antisemitism? Or were you just hazy on what the word meant? IronDuke 01:12, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
[Outdent] Duke, here's your source:
Deny, you’re such a liar
You won’t know the truth if it bit you in the eye
Deny, you’re such a liar
You’re selling your no-no all the time
An’ you said we were going out to the 100 Club
Then you said “it ain’t my scene” then you turned up alone
Then you turned up alone
Deny, you’re such a liar
You won’t know the truth if it hit you in the street
Deny, you’re such a liar
You’re selling your no-no all the time
Then said you’d given it up
Gone an’ kicked it in the head
You said you ain’t had none for weeks
Baby I seen your arms
Baby I seen your arms
Deny, you’re such a liar
You won’t know the truth if it bit you in the eye
Deny, you’re such a liar
You’re selling your no-no all the time
– Joe Strummer and Mick Jones, The Clash, "Deny," 1977
Maybe we just say Butler's selling her no-no all the time? If you want I'll rip you a copy Ironduke let me know.-- G-Dett ( talk) 20:27, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Surely it's possible to find an alternative way of summarising Butler's argument that doesn't use either of these words? The writing could be improved anyway. Itsmejudith ( talk) 14:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
[outdent]Your denial does not disappoint. It is interesting and amusing.
Yes, I used one idiomatic word instead of five pedantic ones. Which brings us swiftly to the point: can you just provide some ordinary examples of what you’re talking about, taken from ordinary idiomatic English? For reasons I’ll get to in a minute, I don’t think the way you’re waving these dictionaries around is helpful or even defensible.
I assume that English is your mother tongue, and that you didn’t grow up say on a remote colonial island home-schooled by C3PO with the OED and WordNet version 1.7 as your only works of reference. That you had and have regular interactions with competent speakers of idiomatic English. Yes? So how on earth have you remained unaware that “deny” often implies refusal to accept self-evident facts? Surely you’ve noticed that we speak of “Global warming deniers” and “Holocaust deniers” but not “astrology deniers,” and that the currency of these terms depends on the overwhelming consensus that global warming and the Holocaust are facts? And surely you’ve noticed that actual global-warming deniers and Holocaust deniers reject these labels and call themselves instead “global-warming skeptics” and “Holocaust revisionists”? If you heard someone refer to “astrology denial” you’d join me in assuming he was either (a) an astrology nut or (b) a facetious wag mocking astrology nuts. Right?
And surely as a fluent speaker of idiomatic English, you’ve noticed that people talk about “denial” as one of the stages of grief, or of drug addiction/rehabilitation, etc. – in each case the stage in which the subject refuses to accept an inescapable truth because it entails too much cognitive dissonance?
And as a cool guy with no doubt lots of cool, ironic friends, surely you’ve been in some situation where someone a little less cool is being shifty or evasive and one of your cool friends mutters something under her breath about “that river in Egypt” and everyone laughed? Did you get your friend’s joke? Or did you just laugh along but secretly not getting it and dying to ask her for a “cite”?
“Deny” is neutral in only one context as far as I know: in response to bare-bones assertions of who did what where when: Mr. X claimed to have seen Mrs. Y at the ballet, but Mrs. Y denied it and said she was at home that night. Mr. X and Mrs. Y are on an equal footing in this sentence. In response to every other kind of assertion I can think of – analyses, interpretations, historical accounts, scientific diagnoses, and yes, speculations about institutional anti-Semitism – “deny” (as well as “denial,” “denier,” etc.) implies resistance to reality, whether willed or passive. It should be noted that even where “deny” is used neutrally, it designates stripped-down gainsaying: I was not at the ballet that night. You deny an allegation, but rebut an argument.
Now, I promised I’d explain to you why what you’re doing with dictionaries is not only pedantic but indefensible. The OED is a great dictionary – probably the greatest – but you have to know how to use it. Unlike Webster’s and most American dictionaries, it does not foreground the standard accepted definition of a given word, nor does it offer guidelines for usage with respect to various contexts, or helpful connotative distinctions between near-synonyms. Rather it is organized historically, allowing you to see the evolution of a word through time. Of the three “non-obsolete” definitions you cite from the OED, the last recorded use of the first was in 1859, the last recorded use of the second was in 1869, and the last of the third was in 1624. In fact, in the entire OED entry, there isn’t a single example given from the 20th or 21st century. Do you know what I make of this anomaly, in my OR-commonsensical way? I surmise that the verb “rebut” is a fairly rare bird in British English, and that it has arrived at a much more comfortable place in American English because of the much greater impact of legal institutions on our popular culture and legal language on our national idiom. Hence Webster’s neutral definitions of “rebut” in the link you first provided. (Oh and the problem with online thingamajigs like WordNet is that they are neither fish nor foul, neither historical nor prescriptive – they just sort of aggregate shit from different sources willy-nilly.)
Getting back to the test of idiom, is it really your experience that “rebut” as commonly used implies decisive and authoritative success on the part of the rebutter? If so, can you give me an example? I genuinely find this puzzling. Here’s something I read in the New York Times a couple of days ago. It’s a good passage for us because it doesn’t merely use the word but actually alludes to its connotations:
Just as the United States news media had reacted to Hillary Clinton’s complaints and “Saturday Night Live”’s parodies last spring by toughening up on Mr. Obama during the final weeks of the primary campaign, another mini-backlash developed as this trip reached its final destinations. By this past weekend, news stories used words like “defend” and “rebut” to characterize Mr. Obama’s own statements about the trip. The candidate himself began to acknowledge that many voters might not see the benefits in his being out of the country for such an extended period. [13]
The Times is decidedly not implying that according to news sources, Obama "disproved" the criticisms directed at him. The implication is rather that he found himself on the defensive and in need of a prepared response. This is the word "rebut" as I know it. If you really feel it has a different idiomatic charge, can you at least give me some examples, preferably not from the 19th century? I'm not questioning your good faith, even in the face of your denial about "denial".... because obviously there is a bit of well-intentioned mischief and banter going on, and I like that sort of thing.
P.S. I do not accept your analogy between rebut/rebuttal and move/motive. Rebut and rebuttal are the same word, just different parts of speech, whereas move and motive are only etymologically connected, like philanderer and philanthropist. In all sincerity (and I do not mean waxlessness), -- G-Dett ( talk) 14:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
P.P.S. According to Paul Brians' Common Errors in English Usage, "When you rebut someone’s argument you argue against it. To refute someone’s argument is to prove it incorrect. Unless you are certain you have achieved success, use 'rebut'."
And from the New York Times Manual of Style and Usage: "rebut/refute: Rebut, a neutral word, means reply and take issue. Refute goes further and often beyond what a writer intends: it means disprove, and successfully." -- G-Dett ( talk) 14:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
1: to declare untrue <deny an allegation> [ Butler does this.]
2: to refuse to admit or acknowledge : DISAVOW <deny responsibility> [ Butler does this.]
3 a: to give a negative answer to <denying the petitioners> b: to refuse to grant <deny a request> c: to restrain (oneself) from gratification of desires [ Butler doesn’t really do this.] DENY implies a firm refusal to accept as true, to grant or concede, or to acknowledge the existence or claims of <denied the charges> [Butler does this]. [14]
CJ, the material you have been removing is both sourced, and relevant to the article, as it is criticism of the boycott decisions. You need to come up with a meaningful reason why it should be deleted,. The fact that your deletion went unopposed (and likely, unnoticed) for a month is not such a reason. There are now multiple editors who oppose it - it is time for you to make a case here on talk. Canadian Monkey ( talk)
Given prominent South Africans' use of the term, it's hardly even controversial. If Desmond Tutu says it's like apartheid, I'm sorry, but it is. It doesn't mean the criticism isn't notable or can just be discarded, but the article's written as if it's a few radical anti-semite Nazi wants to kill all Jews have made the comparison. It's not. I wouldn't be surprised if a rough analogy is the majority opinion in the South African anti-apartheid community. I'm sorry if I value Desmond Tutu's understanding of South African apartheid a hell of a lot better than I value Alan Dershowitz's. -- Jammoe ( talk) 15:09, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia doesn't make statements about these sorts of controversial issues as fact, and I think that's appropriate. But the language of the article implies that the criticism of the mainstream opinion of competent observers is in fact the mainstream opinion of major world commentators. It isn't. I'm not talking about saying or not saying that this analogy applies, I happen to think it does and I'm going to say so, but that's not what I think should be in the article. However, I think it is a fact that you can prove and which fits Wikipedia's NPOV and evidence standards that the criticism of the analogy is marginal and biased. If we live in an intellectual climate where Alan Dershowitz's belief that a situation is similar to Apartheid is given even equal weight to a whole host of people who were actually black in South Africa during Apartheid, we need to change some things about how we evaluate commentary. -- Jammoe ( talk) 02:58, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure this point goes right here--I'm new to participating in "talk." But isn't the sentence "Some invoke the comparison to claim that an academic boycott of Israel should not be controversial based on a misconception that the academic boycott of South Africa was uncontroversial and straightforward." problematic in that there is no citation for the "some?" In the reading I've done on these debates, I see people saying that now the academic boycott of South Africa is viewed as positive, but I don't hear anyone saying that it wasn't controversial at the time. Could someone either provide a source for this "some" or cut the sentence? glenntwo ( talk) 07:35, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
May I add the Jewish ethnicity of Weingarten to the article? And Summers, too. Pinocchio3000 ( talk) 19:01, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
On the contrary, you stated above that you believe that citing the Jewish ancestry of certain individuals "would help to explain why they stand up for Israel." (i.e. they support Israel because they are Jewish). None of the sources cited (as far as I can tell) state this or suggest this - rather, this is your own hypothesis, which you are trying to us Wikipedia to promote; This is original research. To put it another way, there are many individuals cited in this article who oppose boycotts of Israel and whom are not Jewish - does this mean we should cite the religion/ethnicity of every one of these individuals as well, under the guise of "mention[ing] the facts?" (of course not). ( Hyperionsteel ( talk) 03:58, 19 November 2013 (UTC))
There are several issues that I see:
1) It has in quotes that Larry Summers "blasted" the boycotts as anti-semetic. The use of this verb in quotation marks does not suggest a bias in one way or the other (conceivably, the use of the word suggests that Larry Summers criticism was emotion-fuelled and less than civil) . The word has a good deal of emotional charge, and "criticized" would be a more neutral choice. In addition, we don't know who is being cited as having said that Larry Summers "blasted".
2) The word "antisemetic" is in quotation marks on the same line. I propose that the quotation marks be deleted. Their use suggests that the reader should distance him or herself from Summers' claim and be skeptical of the validity of the use of the term antisemitism in this case. Since he did use the word antisemitism, the use of quotation marks is not justified; it's clear enough that Summers accuses the boycotts of being antisemitic, and no additional evidence is being brought forth to the reader by putting it in quotation marks. Even if one doesn't need to interpret the quotations marks as I have, one still can interpret them that way. It is just more neutral to not use quotation marks.
3) The citation of the Summers' quote does not link to a particular article, but to the wikipedia page of the Harvard Crimson. This needs to be corrected. I wasn't able to find it after a very cursory search. Does anyone know where it can be found?
4) It is odd that Judith Butler's response to Summers is given a lengthier exposition than Summers' remarks themselves. A more evenhanded discussion requires, in my view, a greater exposition of Summers argument. I suggest that, once we have the article cited, we provide a detail or two of Summers' position, and his own justifications for his views about why . Also, (and this can perhaps be challenged because I haven't read Summers' article) it is odd that virtually the only evidence provided for Summers' position contains precisely the phrase which Butler uses as the beginning point for her rebuttal of Summers. As it stands now, in my view it seems that Summers' point is only introduced in order to set up Butler's counter-argument.
5) Judith Butler's response to Summers is not merely a response to his point about the particular issue of academic boycotts, but about the larger issue of labelling certain views and political actions as antisemetic in order to discredit them and disqualify those who hold them and do them from participation in mainstream discourse. After we set up Summers' remarks properly, Butler's view should only be presented so far as it pertains to the particular issue of Summers on academic boycotts. Otherwise, her remarks just come out of left field and are only obliquely related to the subject of the article. Bmman87 ( talk) 17:21, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
While researching through various pages to understand boycott and divestment as an artist this one sidedness of those links out seemed inappropriate. Seemed like there would have been a few or half going the other way. Kraig Richard is moltenmedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.109.177.132 ( talk) 17:10, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Students make statements all the time. To say a student group or student representatives voted to support such a thing is not notable. The University of Wisconsin is a nuclear-free zone, is it included in non-proliferation articles? No. This addition adds nothing to the article. Capitalismojo ( talk) 13:44, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
In response to various comments on this page regarding the confusing ordering of the article (see comments: Deodar from September 2006, Terraxos from May 2008, and Itsmejudith from July 2008) I propose a new structure for the U.S. section. My plan is to begin the section with an official statement from the U.S. Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel (USACBI) clearly stating the goals and mission of the U.S. based academic boycott movement. Following this will be a a section titled "succeses" in which I will present a discussion of the associations, departments, individual academics, and other groups whose support for the boycott movement has been reflected in political action. As per the opinion that the article needs a clearer and simpler structure, as well as a more balanced NPOV, voiced by both Itsmejudith and Ironduke in July 2008, I want to end the section with the criticisms already present in the article. I think that this might be a good way to bolster the U.S. section, as much of the support and success is coming out of that region, while simulataneously giving a bit more structure and clarity to the article. -- Gabriellaskoff ( talk) 01:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Hyperionsteel , your deletion of the information added under the United States heading of Boycott Campaign is not in accordance with any specific Wikipedia standards or guidelines, as I did not post any “promotional material”, but rather cited from a notable source, as I had claimed I was doing on both the talk page for this article as well as in the sentences preceding the quotes (see original revision as of 01:58, 27 March 2014). Having cited my source, the quotation is entirely acceptable, following Wikipedia’s guidelines regarding External Links, which states: “External links to commercial organizations are acceptable if they identify notable organizations which are the topic of the article.” Furthermore, the information which you have deleted augmented the NPOV of the article by stating clearly and plainly in the organization’s own words exactly what their goal and mission is. I find that your deletion of my edit is unjustifiable and I have thus proceeded to “undo” your edit. For future reference, please state a valid source of reason as to why you chose to delete a large portion of explanatory text that does not come into conflict with any of Wikipedia’s rules and/or regulations.-- Gabriellaskoff ( talk) 05:18, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
To avoid duplication, I've removed most of the information regarding the controversy between "Mona Baker, Miriam Shlesinger and Gideon Toury" and replaced it with a "main article" link. Since a detailed account of both sides of this issue is already available in Mona Baker's Wikipedia article Mona Baker#Middle East conflict and Israeli academics, it doesn't need to be repeated here.( Hyperionsteel ( talk) 06:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC))
This section, about just one union in one smallish country, is ridiculously long & tedious. It is article-length in itself. I suggest it is either heavily cut or moved to its own article (or the University and College Union article). Ben Finn ( talk) 09:57, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
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In the "Comparisons to academic boycotts of South Africa" section it is said that "Hillary and Stephen Rose in Nature" make a comparison, here is the source: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v417/n6886/full/417221b.html. The source of the response is http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v417/n6890/full/417690a.html. I suggest that someone with access to the first checks if the argument there can be summarized in the same fashion as the second. Davidsevilla | Talk 13:46, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
Many sections are way too long, with too many and excessive quotes. Qualitatis ( talk) 15:36, 6 April 2016 (UTC) The alternatives are either summarize UK, US and SA and move it to separate pages, or summarize and delete the bulk. Furthermore, all country sections should be merged into a timeline chapter.-- Qualitatis ( talk) 13:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
There's still more fat to trim. Unless I hear any objections, I intend on making the following trims:
-- GHcool ( talk) 01:54, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
There's still more fat to trim. Unless I hear any objections, I intend on making the following trims:
-- GHcool ( talk) 17:39, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
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I've added a quote from the UCU judgement in 2013. The preceding section goes into some details as to the events that preceded and led up to the court action, most of it from the POV of the complainants. The fact that their case was comprehensively dismissed and that the Tribunal was so scathing as to the emptiness of their case and critical of their motives in bringing it is an important counterpoint. I believe it should stay because of WP:BALANCE. Steve3742 ( talk) 01:49, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
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An edit removed a sentence from the lead that summarized the viewpoints of proponents of the boycott while leaving a sentence summarizing those of detractors, resulting in a breach of WP:NPOV guidelines. I propose that the sentence (or one similar to it) be reintroduced to the article in the same spot, and the references for it updated as needed.
Prior to revision 1136413434, the final paragraph of the lead summarized both the arguments of proponents and critics. However, in that revision, user @ Esperfulmo removed the sentence which summarized the views of proponents from the article, without editing the sentence which summarized the views of critics.
Per WP:Lead guidelines, the lead should "summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." First, removing this sentence fails to meet this criteria, especially with regards to the latter point, and thus reduces the encyclopedic value of this article. Secondly, simply summarizing the viewpoints of the critics of the boycott is against WP:Neutrality guidelines because it grants Undue weight to one set of positions while omitting even the mention of the opposing side's views.
Here is the sentence that was removed:
Proponents have argued that the situation, particularly in the occupied Palestinian territories, constitutes an example of apartheid in Israel. [1] [2] failed verification page needed
Per the edit summary, the edit was made to delete "an obviously questionable contested statement since 2014." The contestation is present in the "failed verification" tag above. The reason text given in that tag is as follows:
A search for the word "apartheid" in this document has only 2 hits and neither supports the claim.
I have not yet acquired the materials in the contested citations so I am unable to personally verify whether the citations do or do not support the claims made in the sentence. However, no neutral, informed party can claim that the this sentence is "obviously questionable." In the last few decades, numerous individuals and organizations have referred to the de facto state of affairs in Israel and/or the occupied Palestinian territories as a state of apartheid. Regardless of whether you agree with that position, factually, many reputable bodies and scholarly sources have made that claim. This is well documented at the page Israel and apartheid itself. Thus, I must say with utmost respect that the edit belies either an ignorance of the facts or a bias, or I have grossly misinterpreted what the editor meant in their edit summary (in the latter case, I invited the editor to clarify). However, I have refrained from reverting the edit due to the fact that this is a contested subject and am instead opening a discussion here to try and reach a Consensus regarding how to rectify the present situation.
To that end: even if the sources cited above do not themselves support that claim, the logical change that should be made to the article is to replace the sources with ones that do, rather than deleting this sentence altogether. As already discussed, wholesale removal of this sentence causes the lead to fail to meet established Wikipedia guidelines on neutrality and undercuts the efficacy of the lead section altogether.
I am happy to volunteer alternate citations, but first I wanted to offer the opportunity to Esperfulmo and any other parties to respond and provide input on the issues I have raised. Brusquedandelion ( talk) 08:42, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
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Here are additional primary sources for criticism or opponents. -- Deodar 03:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Professor Klug writes in the Jewish Forum for Justice and Human Rights about the academic boycott, in particular the analogy to the South African boycotts:
In short, the intention of the Natfhe motion - what it seeks and why - is obscure. But even if the policy and rationale were clear and unambiguous, there is a deeper problem with motions of this sort that prevents them from attracting a broad base of support: they rely on the false (or limited) analogy implied by the word "apartheid"...But as I have argued elsewhere: "The validity of the analogy does not depend on a catalogue of atrocities, however appalling".
In terms of history and motivation, the differences between the two situations are greater than the similarities. And in the end, any political action that is aimed at ameliorating the conditions of the Palestinians must be based on an analysis - not an analogy.
-- Leflyman Talk 05:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I am unsure how best to structure the article. There are key events that should be covered chronologically. The problem is that the responses to them are repetitive and could best be pulled together and organized topically. But at least some of the repetitive response to the events is necessary though in the chronological coverage in order to explain why events and people responded as they did. As a test, I have moved towards a full chronological organization. The result is that the thorough coverage of the themes in the responses is lost. Its a tough issue to which I don't have a good solution at the moment. Thoughts?-- Deodar 05:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
These should probably be documented in the article content in some way:
-- Deodar 00:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Which template is most appropriate is the question? I put on the "Arab-Israeli conflict" template initially but since then I have collobrated in the creation of the new "Israel-Palestinian Conflict" template. I just put on the "Israel-Palestinian Conflict" template today. Humus sapiens has just reverted that change claiming the Arab-Israeli conflict template is more pertinent. I disagree since the academic boycotts are specifically related to the Israel-Palestinian conflict not the wider Arab-Israeli conflict. Although I do agree that the economic boycotts are more Arab-Israeli conflict related, but that is not the topic of this article. The difference between the economic and academic boycotts is that the academic boycotts are mostly British and Europe rather than other Arab countries. I would encourage Humus sapiens to explain his reasoning for changing the template... I might be missing something. -- Deodar 21:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I just removed the following sentence:
The main issue is that according to the Guardian's corrections to this article, [9], Richard Dawkins and Colin Blakemore were mentioned as supporting and then distancing themselves from the petition erroneously.
Neither of them had originally signed or voiced their support for the petition in which Mona Baker was involved. Unless we find original sources showing their support and then their pulling of it, it would be best to classify them as just critics of that proposal. -- Deodar 05:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi there, The opening of this article mentions an "Irish group" that is pushing for the boycott as well. I'd love it if the article could add a little more information about this - there's not much right now. What group is this? Does it have any relationship with the UK groups calling for the boycott? Have they had much success? Could there be some quotes / links to their information and site? Many thanks. Harpo Hermes 10:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
IronDuke, I don't want to get into a hopeless edit war over this, but the entire world except the US and Israel considers the West Bank and Gaza "occupied." They were taken by force of arms in '67 and never relinquished. They are de facto "occupied territories" any way you look at it. Removing the word "occupied" in favour of "territories" is itself a statement of POV. I'm not going to revert your edit, but I would like to make it perfectly clear that I strongly object to it. Third party? Famousdog 14:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
If you have evidence that academic boycotts are always antisemitic in nature, provide it. Otherwise, its insulting and offensive. Famousdog 21:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
What is the significance of the Lasson paper? Where was it published? Why is it relevant? Famousdog 21:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but I have to remove this section citing a press release by SPME with the title "OVER 11,300 SCHOLARS..." In the very first paragraph they accuse the UCU of "promoting" the boycott. As I have repeatedly emphasised, UCU passed a motion calling for consultation of the membership on the possibility of a boycott. Please read Motion 30. Frankly SPME's "press release" (and the rest of their website, which emphasises combatting anti-Semitism over any discussion of "peace") strikes me as a little shrill, and as a matter of course I mistrust most 501(C)(3) "interest" groups. Famousdog 13:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
This article claims to be about international boycotts of Israel, but the only examples it mentions are from the UK. Is this because it's only in Britain that such proposals have been taken seriously? I would expect that there must be other countries that have at some stage carried out or considered academic boycotts of Israel, like the Arab countries, but I may be wrong. In any case, I think this article badly needs a more globalised view to make it clear whether or not this is a purely British phenomenon. Terraxos ( talk) 14:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Strongbow, I'm a bit confused. First you say that the lead is "too sweeping" [11], then as having "too much detail" [12]. Which would it be? Is there a happy medium? You seem quite happy with specificity when it comes to inserting the idea that "Jewish groups" are protesting, leaving out the condemnations by various academics, thinkers, and politicians. Why the narrow focus? And why in the lead? I'm happy to work with you on this, but trying to posion the well in the lead by implying that ""Jewish groups" are the only ones concerned by the boycotts is misleading at best. IronDuke 22:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
"The proposals have been opposed by a variety of ..." is kind of bad grammar. "... by various ..." would be a direct correction, but it has a dismissive connotation. How about just, "by several?" Tinguat ( talk) 23:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
a collection containing a variety of sorts of things "a great assortment of cars was on display"; "he had a variety of disorders."
(Outdent)
In fact, using the word "several" here would be original research… provided AGF was stretched a bit. According to this several means an indefinite number, more than 2 or 3 but not many. How many sources do we have?
And there are more I left out. Is this “Several?” I ask because we seem to have established that English is not my native language. Now, I’d be open to “plethora” or “cascade,” but I’m not sure they’d be encyclopedic enough. How about just “many?” IronDuke 02:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
PS: I have no idea what your sentence “I can name any number of categories of scholars and politicians, with regard to perspectives on Israel, whom is not represented in those three, and I'm sure for any other group sharing the position” was supposed to mean, but being verbs take “who” (subjective) not “whom” (objective). For example, “Who is he?” Not “Whom is he?” IronDuke 02:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
"Many" works for me. Thanks for your thoughts on grammar, but rest assured it was a typo rather than a grammatical mistake. Tinguat ( talk) 11:21, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I need to explain my thinking in moving the criticism section later. This was one step in a radical restructuring of the whole article that I think should be done. For two reasons I don't want to go ahead and do the restructuring in one go: a) it is not something that I find very easy to do - I find it easier to work incrementally - and b) it is not a very good way to get consensus.
Why do I think the whole article needs restructuring? Because presenting a whole load of criticism right at the front of the article is not conducive to NPOV. On the other hand, the article must reflect accurately how these proposals have been received, and it is fair to say that they have on the whole been received negatively. When I say "on the whole", I mean that that is the overall effect when many different viewponts are taken together. There have been a range of responses from "great idea" through "perhaps, but", to "no thanks, not a good idea", "appalling suggestion" and "outrageous, antisemitic". All of these need to be mentioned.
There are various possibilities for the article structure.
1) Many good articles on controversial subjects do not have a separate criticism section at all but interweave all the relevant points of view through the whole discussion. This might work well on this article. Under each subheading we would explain what the proposal was and then how the controversy developed. When presenting statements by Tony Blair etc., we would have to be sure which proposal they followed.
2) Change the "Criticism" heading to "Responses". In that section present the favourable views first, then the mixed ones, then the unfavourable ones. If we adopt this structure it will not be appropriate to match the criticisms with the counter-arguments by the boycott proponents. All the proponents' views will have to be grouped together at the start of the article before the Responses.
3) Again, have a "Responses" section but group the different opinions under headings such as "Criticism that boycotts are antisemitic" and "Boycotts and academic freedom". This would be easier to do on this article than on some others, as the points made do seem to fall into groups. However, it might too easily lead us into the trap of original synthesis.
Hope this helps. Looking forward to reading people's views on it. Itsmejudith ( talk) 10:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
<<Obligatory sigh.>> CJ, at best, "refuted " admits of more than one definition, with a definite preference for "disproved." If you look here or here or here or here, you will see a discussion of journalistic style that shows unambiguously I'm correct. Or take a dictionary definiton here. There are some dictionaries which allow -- only as a secondary definition -- the idea that to refute something is to argue against it. But the main definition strongly implies disproof. Is that what you wanted to say? That Butler had disproved the charge of antisemitism? Or were you just hazy on what the word meant? IronDuke 01:12, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
[Outdent] Duke, here's your source:
Deny, you’re such a liar
You won’t know the truth if it bit you in the eye
Deny, you’re such a liar
You’re selling your no-no all the time
An’ you said we were going out to the 100 Club
Then you said “it ain’t my scene” then you turned up alone
Then you turned up alone
Deny, you’re such a liar
You won’t know the truth if it hit you in the street
Deny, you’re such a liar
You’re selling your no-no all the time
Then said you’d given it up
Gone an’ kicked it in the head
You said you ain’t had none for weeks
Baby I seen your arms
Baby I seen your arms
Deny, you’re such a liar
You won’t know the truth if it bit you in the eye
Deny, you’re such a liar
You’re selling your no-no all the time
– Joe Strummer and Mick Jones, The Clash, "Deny," 1977
Maybe we just say Butler's selling her no-no all the time? If you want I'll rip you a copy Ironduke let me know.-- G-Dett ( talk) 20:27, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Surely it's possible to find an alternative way of summarising Butler's argument that doesn't use either of these words? The writing could be improved anyway. Itsmejudith ( talk) 14:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
[outdent]Your denial does not disappoint. It is interesting and amusing.
Yes, I used one idiomatic word instead of five pedantic ones. Which brings us swiftly to the point: can you just provide some ordinary examples of what you’re talking about, taken from ordinary idiomatic English? For reasons I’ll get to in a minute, I don’t think the way you’re waving these dictionaries around is helpful or even defensible.
I assume that English is your mother tongue, and that you didn’t grow up say on a remote colonial island home-schooled by C3PO with the OED and WordNet version 1.7 as your only works of reference. That you had and have regular interactions with competent speakers of idiomatic English. Yes? So how on earth have you remained unaware that “deny” often implies refusal to accept self-evident facts? Surely you’ve noticed that we speak of “Global warming deniers” and “Holocaust deniers” but not “astrology deniers,” and that the currency of these terms depends on the overwhelming consensus that global warming and the Holocaust are facts? And surely you’ve noticed that actual global-warming deniers and Holocaust deniers reject these labels and call themselves instead “global-warming skeptics” and “Holocaust revisionists”? If you heard someone refer to “astrology denial” you’d join me in assuming he was either (a) an astrology nut or (b) a facetious wag mocking astrology nuts. Right?
And surely as a fluent speaker of idiomatic English, you’ve noticed that people talk about “denial” as one of the stages of grief, or of drug addiction/rehabilitation, etc. – in each case the stage in which the subject refuses to accept an inescapable truth because it entails too much cognitive dissonance?
And as a cool guy with no doubt lots of cool, ironic friends, surely you’ve been in some situation where someone a little less cool is being shifty or evasive and one of your cool friends mutters something under her breath about “that river in Egypt” and everyone laughed? Did you get your friend’s joke? Or did you just laugh along but secretly not getting it and dying to ask her for a “cite”?
“Deny” is neutral in only one context as far as I know: in response to bare-bones assertions of who did what where when: Mr. X claimed to have seen Mrs. Y at the ballet, but Mrs. Y denied it and said she was at home that night. Mr. X and Mrs. Y are on an equal footing in this sentence. In response to every other kind of assertion I can think of – analyses, interpretations, historical accounts, scientific diagnoses, and yes, speculations about institutional anti-Semitism – “deny” (as well as “denial,” “denier,” etc.) implies resistance to reality, whether willed or passive. It should be noted that even where “deny” is used neutrally, it designates stripped-down gainsaying: I was not at the ballet that night. You deny an allegation, but rebut an argument.
Now, I promised I’d explain to you why what you’re doing with dictionaries is not only pedantic but indefensible. The OED is a great dictionary – probably the greatest – but you have to know how to use it. Unlike Webster’s and most American dictionaries, it does not foreground the standard accepted definition of a given word, nor does it offer guidelines for usage with respect to various contexts, or helpful connotative distinctions between near-synonyms. Rather it is organized historically, allowing you to see the evolution of a word through time. Of the three “non-obsolete” definitions you cite from the OED, the last recorded use of the first was in 1859, the last recorded use of the second was in 1869, and the last of the third was in 1624. In fact, in the entire OED entry, there isn’t a single example given from the 20th or 21st century. Do you know what I make of this anomaly, in my OR-commonsensical way? I surmise that the verb “rebut” is a fairly rare bird in British English, and that it has arrived at a much more comfortable place in American English because of the much greater impact of legal institutions on our popular culture and legal language on our national idiom. Hence Webster’s neutral definitions of “rebut” in the link you first provided. (Oh and the problem with online thingamajigs like WordNet is that they are neither fish nor foul, neither historical nor prescriptive – they just sort of aggregate shit from different sources willy-nilly.)
Getting back to the test of idiom, is it really your experience that “rebut” as commonly used implies decisive and authoritative success on the part of the rebutter? If so, can you give me an example? I genuinely find this puzzling. Here’s something I read in the New York Times a couple of days ago. It’s a good passage for us because it doesn’t merely use the word but actually alludes to its connotations:
Just as the United States news media had reacted to Hillary Clinton’s complaints and “Saturday Night Live”’s parodies last spring by toughening up on Mr. Obama during the final weeks of the primary campaign, another mini-backlash developed as this trip reached its final destinations. By this past weekend, news stories used words like “defend” and “rebut” to characterize Mr. Obama’s own statements about the trip. The candidate himself began to acknowledge that many voters might not see the benefits in his being out of the country for such an extended period. [13]
The Times is decidedly not implying that according to news sources, Obama "disproved" the criticisms directed at him. The implication is rather that he found himself on the defensive and in need of a prepared response. This is the word "rebut" as I know it. If you really feel it has a different idiomatic charge, can you at least give me some examples, preferably not from the 19th century? I'm not questioning your good faith, even in the face of your denial about "denial".... because obviously there is a bit of well-intentioned mischief and banter going on, and I like that sort of thing.
P.S. I do not accept your analogy between rebut/rebuttal and move/motive. Rebut and rebuttal are the same word, just different parts of speech, whereas move and motive are only etymologically connected, like philanderer and philanthropist. In all sincerity (and I do not mean waxlessness), -- G-Dett ( talk) 14:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
P.P.S. According to Paul Brians' Common Errors in English Usage, "When you rebut someone’s argument you argue against it. To refute someone’s argument is to prove it incorrect. Unless you are certain you have achieved success, use 'rebut'."
And from the New York Times Manual of Style and Usage: "rebut/refute: Rebut, a neutral word, means reply and take issue. Refute goes further and often beyond what a writer intends: it means disprove, and successfully." -- G-Dett ( talk) 14:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
1: to declare untrue <deny an allegation> [ Butler does this.]
2: to refuse to admit or acknowledge : DISAVOW <deny responsibility> [ Butler does this.]
3 a: to give a negative answer to <denying the petitioners> b: to refuse to grant <deny a request> c: to restrain (oneself) from gratification of desires [ Butler doesn’t really do this.] DENY implies a firm refusal to accept as true, to grant or concede, or to acknowledge the existence or claims of <denied the charges> [Butler does this]. [14]
CJ, the material you have been removing is both sourced, and relevant to the article, as it is criticism of the boycott decisions. You need to come up with a meaningful reason why it should be deleted,. The fact that your deletion went unopposed (and likely, unnoticed) for a month is not such a reason. There are now multiple editors who oppose it - it is time for you to make a case here on talk. Canadian Monkey ( talk)
Given prominent South Africans' use of the term, it's hardly even controversial. If Desmond Tutu says it's like apartheid, I'm sorry, but it is. It doesn't mean the criticism isn't notable or can just be discarded, but the article's written as if it's a few radical anti-semite Nazi wants to kill all Jews have made the comparison. It's not. I wouldn't be surprised if a rough analogy is the majority opinion in the South African anti-apartheid community. I'm sorry if I value Desmond Tutu's understanding of South African apartheid a hell of a lot better than I value Alan Dershowitz's. -- Jammoe ( talk) 15:09, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia doesn't make statements about these sorts of controversial issues as fact, and I think that's appropriate. But the language of the article implies that the criticism of the mainstream opinion of competent observers is in fact the mainstream opinion of major world commentators. It isn't. I'm not talking about saying or not saying that this analogy applies, I happen to think it does and I'm going to say so, but that's not what I think should be in the article. However, I think it is a fact that you can prove and which fits Wikipedia's NPOV and evidence standards that the criticism of the analogy is marginal and biased. If we live in an intellectual climate where Alan Dershowitz's belief that a situation is similar to Apartheid is given even equal weight to a whole host of people who were actually black in South Africa during Apartheid, we need to change some things about how we evaluate commentary. -- Jammoe ( talk) 02:58, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure this point goes right here--I'm new to participating in "talk." But isn't the sentence "Some invoke the comparison to claim that an academic boycott of Israel should not be controversial based on a misconception that the academic boycott of South Africa was uncontroversial and straightforward." problematic in that there is no citation for the "some?" In the reading I've done on these debates, I see people saying that now the academic boycott of South Africa is viewed as positive, but I don't hear anyone saying that it wasn't controversial at the time. Could someone either provide a source for this "some" or cut the sentence? glenntwo ( talk) 07:35, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
May I add the Jewish ethnicity of Weingarten to the article? And Summers, too. Pinocchio3000 ( talk) 19:01, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
On the contrary, you stated above that you believe that citing the Jewish ancestry of certain individuals "would help to explain why they stand up for Israel." (i.e. they support Israel because they are Jewish). None of the sources cited (as far as I can tell) state this or suggest this - rather, this is your own hypothesis, which you are trying to us Wikipedia to promote; This is original research. To put it another way, there are many individuals cited in this article who oppose boycotts of Israel and whom are not Jewish - does this mean we should cite the religion/ethnicity of every one of these individuals as well, under the guise of "mention[ing] the facts?" (of course not). ( Hyperionsteel ( talk) 03:58, 19 November 2013 (UTC))
There are several issues that I see:
1) It has in quotes that Larry Summers "blasted" the boycotts as anti-semetic. The use of this verb in quotation marks does not suggest a bias in one way or the other (conceivably, the use of the word suggests that Larry Summers criticism was emotion-fuelled and less than civil) . The word has a good deal of emotional charge, and "criticized" would be a more neutral choice. In addition, we don't know who is being cited as having said that Larry Summers "blasted".
2) The word "antisemetic" is in quotation marks on the same line. I propose that the quotation marks be deleted. Their use suggests that the reader should distance him or herself from Summers' claim and be skeptical of the validity of the use of the term antisemitism in this case. Since he did use the word antisemitism, the use of quotation marks is not justified; it's clear enough that Summers accuses the boycotts of being antisemitic, and no additional evidence is being brought forth to the reader by putting it in quotation marks. Even if one doesn't need to interpret the quotations marks as I have, one still can interpret them that way. It is just more neutral to not use quotation marks.
3) The citation of the Summers' quote does not link to a particular article, but to the wikipedia page of the Harvard Crimson. This needs to be corrected. I wasn't able to find it after a very cursory search. Does anyone know where it can be found?
4) It is odd that Judith Butler's response to Summers is given a lengthier exposition than Summers' remarks themselves. A more evenhanded discussion requires, in my view, a greater exposition of Summers argument. I suggest that, once we have the article cited, we provide a detail or two of Summers' position, and his own justifications for his views about why . Also, (and this can perhaps be challenged because I haven't read Summers' article) it is odd that virtually the only evidence provided for Summers' position contains precisely the phrase which Butler uses as the beginning point for her rebuttal of Summers. As it stands now, in my view it seems that Summers' point is only introduced in order to set up Butler's counter-argument.
5) Judith Butler's response to Summers is not merely a response to his point about the particular issue of academic boycotts, but about the larger issue of labelling certain views and political actions as antisemetic in order to discredit them and disqualify those who hold them and do them from participation in mainstream discourse. After we set up Summers' remarks properly, Butler's view should only be presented so far as it pertains to the particular issue of Summers on academic boycotts. Otherwise, her remarks just come out of left field and are only obliquely related to the subject of the article. Bmman87 ( talk) 17:21, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
While researching through various pages to understand boycott and divestment as an artist this one sidedness of those links out seemed inappropriate. Seemed like there would have been a few or half going the other way. Kraig Richard is moltenmedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.109.177.132 ( talk) 17:10, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Students make statements all the time. To say a student group or student representatives voted to support such a thing is not notable. The University of Wisconsin is a nuclear-free zone, is it included in non-proliferation articles? No. This addition adds nothing to the article. Capitalismojo ( talk) 13:44, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
In response to various comments on this page regarding the confusing ordering of the article (see comments: Deodar from September 2006, Terraxos from May 2008, and Itsmejudith from July 2008) I propose a new structure for the U.S. section. My plan is to begin the section with an official statement from the U.S. Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel (USACBI) clearly stating the goals and mission of the U.S. based academic boycott movement. Following this will be a a section titled "succeses" in which I will present a discussion of the associations, departments, individual academics, and other groups whose support for the boycott movement has been reflected in political action. As per the opinion that the article needs a clearer and simpler structure, as well as a more balanced NPOV, voiced by both Itsmejudith and Ironduke in July 2008, I want to end the section with the criticisms already present in the article. I think that this might be a good way to bolster the U.S. section, as much of the support and success is coming out of that region, while simulataneously giving a bit more structure and clarity to the article. -- Gabriellaskoff ( talk) 01:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Hyperionsteel , your deletion of the information added under the United States heading of Boycott Campaign is not in accordance with any specific Wikipedia standards or guidelines, as I did not post any “promotional material”, but rather cited from a notable source, as I had claimed I was doing on both the talk page for this article as well as in the sentences preceding the quotes (see original revision as of 01:58, 27 March 2014). Having cited my source, the quotation is entirely acceptable, following Wikipedia’s guidelines regarding External Links, which states: “External links to commercial organizations are acceptable if they identify notable organizations which are the topic of the article.” Furthermore, the information which you have deleted augmented the NPOV of the article by stating clearly and plainly in the organization’s own words exactly what their goal and mission is. I find that your deletion of my edit is unjustifiable and I have thus proceeded to “undo” your edit. For future reference, please state a valid source of reason as to why you chose to delete a large portion of explanatory text that does not come into conflict with any of Wikipedia’s rules and/or regulations.-- Gabriellaskoff ( talk) 05:18, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
To avoid duplication, I've removed most of the information regarding the controversy between "Mona Baker, Miriam Shlesinger and Gideon Toury" and replaced it with a "main article" link. Since a detailed account of both sides of this issue is already available in Mona Baker's Wikipedia article Mona Baker#Middle East conflict and Israeli academics, it doesn't need to be repeated here.( Hyperionsteel ( talk) 06:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC))
This section, about just one union in one smallish country, is ridiculously long & tedious. It is article-length in itself. I suggest it is either heavily cut or moved to its own article (or the University and College Union article). Ben Finn ( talk) 09:57, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
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In the "Comparisons to academic boycotts of South Africa" section it is said that "Hillary and Stephen Rose in Nature" make a comparison, here is the source: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v417/n6886/full/417221b.html. The source of the response is http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v417/n6890/full/417690a.html. I suggest that someone with access to the first checks if the argument there can be summarized in the same fashion as the second. Davidsevilla | Talk 13:46, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
Many sections are way too long, with too many and excessive quotes. Qualitatis ( talk) 15:36, 6 April 2016 (UTC) The alternatives are either summarize UK, US and SA and move it to separate pages, or summarize and delete the bulk. Furthermore, all country sections should be merged into a timeline chapter.-- Qualitatis ( talk) 13:33, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
There's still more fat to trim. Unless I hear any objections, I intend on making the following trims:
-- GHcool ( talk) 01:54, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
There's still more fat to trim. Unless I hear any objections, I intend on making the following trims:
-- GHcool ( talk) 17:39, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
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I've added a quote from the UCU judgement in 2013. The preceding section goes into some details as to the events that preceded and led up to the court action, most of it from the POV of the complainants. The fact that their case was comprehensively dismissed and that the Tribunal was so scathing as to the emptiness of their case and critical of their motives in bringing it is an important counterpoint. I believe it should stay because of WP:BALANCE. Steve3742 ( talk) 01:49, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
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An edit removed a sentence from the lead that summarized the viewpoints of proponents of the boycott while leaving a sentence summarizing those of detractors, resulting in a breach of WP:NPOV guidelines. I propose that the sentence (or one similar to it) be reintroduced to the article in the same spot, and the references for it updated as needed.
Prior to revision 1136413434, the final paragraph of the lead summarized both the arguments of proponents and critics. However, in that revision, user @ Esperfulmo removed the sentence which summarized the views of proponents from the article, without editing the sentence which summarized the views of critics.
Per WP:Lead guidelines, the lead should "summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." First, removing this sentence fails to meet this criteria, especially with regards to the latter point, and thus reduces the encyclopedic value of this article. Secondly, simply summarizing the viewpoints of the critics of the boycott is against WP:Neutrality guidelines because it grants Undue weight to one set of positions while omitting even the mention of the opposing side's views.
Here is the sentence that was removed:
Proponents have argued that the situation, particularly in the occupied Palestinian territories, constitutes an example of apartheid in Israel. [1] [2] failed verification page needed
Per the edit summary, the edit was made to delete "an obviously questionable contested statement since 2014." The contestation is present in the "failed verification" tag above. The reason text given in that tag is as follows:
A search for the word "apartheid" in this document has only 2 hits and neither supports the claim.
I have not yet acquired the materials in the contested citations so I am unable to personally verify whether the citations do or do not support the claims made in the sentence. However, no neutral, informed party can claim that the this sentence is "obviously questionable." In the last few decades, numerous individuals and organizations have referred to the de facto state of affairs in Israel and/or the occupied Palestinian territories as a state of apartheid. Regardless of whether you agree with that position, factually, many reputable bodies and scholarly sources have made that claim. This is well documented at the page Israel and apartheid itself. Thus, I must say with utmost respect that the edit belies either an ignorance of the facts or a bias, or I have grossly misinterpreted what the editor meant in their edit summary (in the latter case, I invited the editor to clarify). However, I have refrained from reverting the edit due to the fact that this is a contested subject and am instead opening a discussion here to try and reach a Consensus regarding how to rectify the present situation.
To that end: even if the sources cited above do not themselves support that claim, the logical change that should be made to the article is to replace the sources with ones that do, rather than deleting this sentence altogether. As already discussed, wholesale removal of this sentence causes the lead to fail to meet established Wikipedia guidelines on neutrality and undercuts the efficacy of the lead section altogether.
I am happy to volunteer alternate citations, but first I wanted to offer the opportunity to Esperfulmo and any other parties to respond and provide input on the issues I have raised. Brusquedandelion ( talk) 08:42, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
References