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Given that this bill is a virtual word-for-word copy of the previous bills, going back to Alabama in 2005, it seems highly unlikely that Stemberger did more than alter the numbering, punctuation and/or type in 'Florida' into the bill. I know its cited that he was a 'drafter', but given that we know that his input was, at best, cosmetic in the extreme, is it WP:UNDUE to mention this? Is he a sufficiently prominent to be worth mentioning at all? I can find no news reports that indicate that he's been a significant player on this issue. Florida Family Policy Council seems more interested in an anti-gay-marriage amendment than evolution at this point in time. Hrafn Talk Stalk 02:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
This bill appears to be identical to the (unamended) Louisiana bill. Hrafn Talk Stalk 04:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC) The Missouri bill appears to be an abbreviated version of the (unamended) Louisiana bill. The South Carolina bill is an even more abbreviated version. Hrafn Talk Stalk 05:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
The Florida bills died quietly with the end of the legislative session. I'm going to move to progressively slim this section down to the facts plus the most prominent opinions. The ACLU is clearly the most high-profile opponent, so must stay in. Luskin is a DI attorney expressing an opinion on DI-written legistlation, the "why not sex-ed?" question resulted in attempted legislative action, & Storm's prevarication is clearly notable. Stemberger is almost certainly for the chop, per above. Stein is notable as a figure, but his comments were pretty boiler-plate. Elsberry is a fairly tangential figure (not being directly involved in Florida), and his blog-post is (although reliable) not a particularly prominent source. My intention is to leave the 'Bill Analysis and Fiscal Impact Statement' & Liam Julian pieces in -- as there is an excellent chance that the DI language will be recycled in further bills. Hrafn Talk Stalk 06:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
On two of the points that Wesley R. Elsberry makes, I would have to disagree. The creationists weren't well prepared -- Casey Luskin made a fool of himself, and Storms' lack of a sophisticated prevarication on whether the bill would allow ID/Creo was glaring. Also, there was a very large amount of coverage hostile to the bills in the mainstream Florida media -- Marc Caputo at the Miami Herald was particularly scathing. I suspect that the Florida pro-science crowd might be better off concentrating on individual smart/sympathetic/articulate journos than on the general 'gaggle'. Hrafn Talk Stalk 15:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Wesley. I'm likewise concerned about things that seem to be slipping through the cracks. I'm on another continent and have been following this purely through the internet, and wrote this article (starting a couple of months ago) because I was daily seeing news stories on it on Google News, but it wasn't being covered on wikipedia. The main points:
I had thought that I'd been writing a decent article. Now I'm not so sure. Hrafn Talk Stalk 18:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Wesley: from the links you've given me, it would seem likely that if a 'Creation-evolution controversy in Florida' article were written, you'd probably be a major protagonist. (Now that I put my mind to it, I do remember your connection to Cheri Yecke's Florida excursion -- but am not a regular editor on her article, and hadn't read it for some time.) This is not however the article I've been writing (nor probably one I'd be in a position to write competently). The article I've been writing has been on a series of related bills, and necessarily starts when one is introduced and moves to the next state when it dies. That the Florida newspapers didn't give you a voice on these bills, when you are eminently qualified to speak on them, was a mistake on their part. It is not however a mistake that I am in a position to legitimately rectify.
I've attempted to do further drilling down on op-eds, doing a Florida-specific news search for 'Darwinism' a word more likely to be used by pro-Creo than neutral or pro-science writers. Even so, most of the articles caught were neutral to pro-science. The only exceptions were from sources not in List of newspapers in Florida: this rant (which seems more likely to be a letter to the editor than an op-ed) and this dishonest piece by Mark Mathis (who somehow fails to mention his connection to Expelled). Neither of them would seem to meet WP:RS, let alone be competitive for inclusion on a widely-covered topic. Hrafn Talk Stalk 19:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
You wouldn't think so from reading the news. The only link between the two that I could find was an Orlando Sentinel blog post (which didn't even mention him by name, just as a Nobel Prize winner). I'm beginning to see what Wesley meant by the poor coverage of the press conference (with everything going on at the time, it didn't really register at the time). This is also probably why I missed including it the first time round -- I would have been waiting for a source that actually laid it out clearly, rather than having to patchwork it together for myself. Hrafn Talk Stalk 05:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
In their continually distancing themselves from previous iterations, (first through ID's split from Creation Science, then) 'Teach the Controversy', then 'Critical Analysis of Evolution' and now 'Academic Freedom' on evolution, the DI's campaigns have now lost any clear connection to their teleological roots. AF is Neocreationism with even the ID washed out. The void it creates could as easily be filled with YE Flood Geology or Baraminology (or some wacky New Age theory for that matter) as ID's talk of Irreducible & Specified Complexity and Conservation of Information. That being so, although ID definitely deserves a place in the lead, to equate AF with ID is erroneous. It is certainly not an identity that I've seen the NCSE (whose sterling work in documenting the history of these bills I've drawn heavily on) make. Hrafn Talk Stalk 16:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Opponents of Evolution Adopting a New Strategy June 4, 2008 New York Times. Some highlights:
Odd nature ( talk) 19:12, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Another new source They're back!! Jewish Times Odd nature ( talk) 20:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
ASBMB Today August 2008 issue ( American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology p11) mentions us as an 'additional resource' on this topic. Hrafn Talk Stalk 12:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I've moved the Scientific American quote to the intro alongside the WSJ quote because both quotes are relevant to intro and the Scientific American source is very notable. In fact, Branch is more notable and relevant to the topic than WSJ's Stephanie Simon and the Scientific American source is more recent. If two quotes are too much in the intro the one that should come out is the WSJ quote, being less relevant and notable. FeloniousMonk ( talk) 08:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
In summary, I do not agree with this change. I will not edit-war to revert it, but I will not let this issue drop. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 08:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Re-reading the original source, the quote is also mis-attributed and mis-presented. It is part of a piece by Branch and Eugenie Scott, so attributing the quote soley to Branch is inaccurate. It also explicitly starts out "In the meantime, it is clear why the Louisiana Science Education Act is pernicious: it tacitly encourages..." so it would be better to include the quoted passage's direct mention of the quote (either starting at "In the" or "it is clear") than to leave it out, only to reintroduce it as ""[the Louisiana Science Education Act] tacitly encourages..." Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 08:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I would further point out that the quoted excerpt is given no particular prominence within the (quite lengthy) Branch & Scott piece. So, while it is quite legitimate to present it in the context within which it was made (the Louisiana Act), presenting it as having some especial prominence in relation to the general topic would appear to be blowing it out of proportion. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 03:56, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Is the 2009 Florida bill an 'Academic Freedom'-style bill? My impression from the news coverage was that it was a 'pre-Dover'/'Teach the Controversy' era throwback requiring (not merely permitting) teaching of both evolution and ID is evolution was to be taught at all. There have been a vast number of different types of creationist bills introduced throughout the years (NCSE have pages and pages on it), the original intention of this article was to cover those tightly tied to the 'Academic Freedom' theme introduced in Expelled & the DI's petition, so as to keep the narrative coherent. I would suggest if we attempted to cover all creationist bills here, the article would quite quickly get quite unmanageable. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 11:24, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Further complicating this issue is this press release from NCSE, which describes the bill as "Like other 'academic freedom' bills that aim to smuggle creationism back into the classroom", implicitly stating that it is an academic freedom bill. However the quoted text from the bill, requiring "thorough presentation and critical analysis of the scientific theory of evolution", puts it in the Academic Freedom 'precursor' phase of Critical Analysis of Evolution in Neo-Creationism's evolution. I'm currently in two minds as to whether it belongs here or not, so would suggest a wait-and-see approach, to see if other commentators confirm NCSE's description and/or if the bill changes into something more/less AF-related. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Interestingly the full NCSE writeup on this bill makes no mention of 'Academic Freedom'. (The bill itself is here.) Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 14:48, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that this be re-organised so there's a section on state-level bills/acts with (alphabetical?) sub-headings by state. Additionally, the "Overview", "Discovery Institute position" and possibly the section about Expelled should be grouped together. I opted to make a post here rather than try to work something out myself, because I can understand the chronological order it's currently in. However, I think that in the long run my suggestion will make it an easier read.
Also, I created Evolution Academic Freedom Act and Louisiana Academic Freedom Act as redirects to the relevant sections here. If there is a re-organisation, please check for pages such as these to make sure the section they point to is changed accordingly. Recognizance ( talk) 23:14, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
The narrative of the article is essentially: 'the idea started with the Santorum Amendment, it languished in the political wilderness at the state level until Expelled/DI came along and gave it a boost, thereafter it had a big profile failure in Florida & a big profile success in Louisiana.'
The "Roman Catholic opposition" subsection under the Louisiana bill seems a bit sketchy for two reasons. One, is that there is no traceable citation. Two, even if it was effectively cited, the entire section is misleading. It describes an objection by a Roman Catholic in a newspaper piece, presumably a guest editorial. It is the opinion of an individual who happens to be a Roman Catholic. Even if the heading were corrected to "Opposition by a Roman Catholic" or "Opposition by Holly L. Wilson," the lack of notability would be obvious. The section should be deleted unless these two problems can be fixed. I thought I'd post this on the Talk page before editing in case someone wants to suggest a fix before I delete it. Scoopczar ( talk) 03:50, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
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The title of this article was changed without any discussion. It should be put back to what it was because the bills are called Academic Freedom Bills not Anti-evolution Legislation. Readers will search for Academic Freedom Bills. What matters is what the bills are actually called. -- OtisDixon ( talk) 23:20, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
These bills are worded as “academic freedom” bills, but they really are efforts to present foundational science as controversial.. We should not be using the framing of the proponents of the bill when that framing misleads the public. -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 19:36, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Revert --
Dr. Fleischman --
OtisDixon is correct that this should go thru guidelines
WP:MOVE and particularly
WP:RM#CM as this is a contentious area. I suggest that you revert as the way to demonstrate good faith effort towards due process, and then restart that way. It may wind up at the same place, but it would then have demonstrated extra effort to do things the guidelines way, and would also show a full open discussion versus just an action by a solo editor. Cheers,
Markbassett (
talk)
20:21, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources.And:
Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred.And that's not even taking WP:POVTITLE into account. -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 19:48, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
what I think readers will look for in WPAt the risk of beating a dead horse, readers searching for Academic Freedom bills will easily arrive at the WP article they seek, which is this one. Just plain Bill ( talk) 20:36, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
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Given that this bill is a virtual word-for-word copy of the previous bills, going back to Alabama in 2005, it seems highly unlikely that Stemberger did more than alter the numbering, punctuation and/or type in 'Florida' into the bill. I know its cited that he was a 'drafter', but given that we know that his input was, at best, cosmetic in the extreme, is it WP:UNDUE to mention this? Is he a sufficiently prominent to be worth mentioning at all? I can find no news reports that indicate that he's been a significant player on this issue. Florida Family Policy Council seems more interested in an anti-gay-marriage amendment than evolution at this point in time. Hrafn Talk Stalk 02:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
This bill appears to be identical to the (unamended) Louisiana bill. Hrafn Talk Stalk 04:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC) The Missouri bill appears to be an abbreviated version of the (unamended) Louisiana bill. The South Carolina bill is an even more abbreviated version. Hrafn Talk Stalk 05:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
The Florida bills died quietly with the end of the legislative session. I'm going to move to progressively slim this section down to the facts plus the most prominent opinions. The ACLU is clearly the most high-profile opponent, so must stay in. Luskin is a DI attorney expressing an opinion on DI-written legistlation, the "why not sex-ed?" question resulted in attempted legislative action, & Storm's prevarication is clearly notable. Stemberger is almost certainly for the chop, per above. Stein is notable as a figure, but his comments were pretty boiler-plate. Elsberry is a fairly tangential figure (not being directly involved in Florida), and his blog-post is (although reliable) not a particularly prominent source. My intention is to leave the 'Bill Analysis and Fiscal Impact Statement' & Liam Julian pieces in -- as there is an excellent chance that the DI language will be recycled in further bills. Hrafn Talk Stalk 06:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
On two of the points that Wesley R. Elsberry makes, I would have to disagree. The creationists weren't well prepared -- Casey Luskin made a fool of himself, and Storms' lack of a sophisticated prevarication on whether the bill would allow ID/Creo was glaring. Also, there was a very large amount of coverage hostile to the bills in the mainstream Florida media -- Marc Caputo at the Miami Herald was particularly scathing. I suspect that the Florida pro-science crowd might be better off concentrating on individual smart/sympathetic/articulate journos than on the general 'gaggle'. Hrafn Talk Stalk 15:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Wesley. I'm likewise concerned about things that seem to be slipping through the cracks. I'm on another continent and have been following this purely through the internet, and wrote this article (starting a couple of months ago) because I was daily seeing news stories on it on Google News, but it wasn't being covered on wikipedia. The main points:
I had thought that I'd been writing a decent article. Now I'm not so sure. Hrafn Talk Stalk 18:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Wesley: from the links you've given me, it would seem likely that if a 'Creation-evolution controversy in Florida' article were written, you'd probably be a major protagonist. (Now that I put my mind to it, I do remember your connection to Cheri Yecke's Florida excursion -- but am not a regular editor on her article, and hadn't read it for some time.) This is not however the article I've been writing (nor probably one I'd be in a position to write competently). The article I've been writing has been on a series of related bills, and necessarily starts when one is introduced and moves to the next state when it dies. That the Florida newspapers didn't give you a voice on these bills, when you are eminently qualified to speak on them, was a mistake on their part. It is not however a mistake that I am in a position to legitimately rectify.
I've attempted to do further drilling down on op-eds, doing a Florida-specific news search for 'Darwinism' a word more likely to be used by pro-Creo than neutral or pro-science writers. Even so, most of the articles caught were neutral to pro-science. The only exceptions were from sources not in List of newspapers in Florida: this rant (which seems more likely to be a letter to the editor than an op-ed) and this dishonest piece by Mark Mathis (who somehow fails to mention his connection to Expelled). Neither of them would seem to meet WP:RS, let alone be competitive for inclusion on a widely-covered topic. Hrafn Talk Stalk 19:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
You wouldn't think so from reading the news. The only link between the two that I could find was an Orlando Sentinel blog post (which didn't even mention him by name, just as a Nobel Prize winner). I'm beginning to see what Wesley meant by the poor coverage of the press conference (with everything going on at the time, it didn't really register at the time). This is also probably why I missed including it the first time round -- I would have been waiting for a source that actually laid it out clearly, rather than having to patchwork it together for myself. Hrafn Talk Stalk 05:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
In their continually distancing themselves from previous iterations, (first through ID's split from Creation Science, then) 'Teach the Controversy', then 'Critical Analysis of Evolution' and now 'Academic Freedom' on evolution, the DI's campaigns have now lost any clear connection to their teleological roots. AF is Neocreationism with even the ID washed out. The void it creates could as easily be filled with YE Flood Geology or Baraminology (or some wacky New Age theory for that matter) as ID's talk of Irreducible & Specified Complexity and Conservation of Information. That being so, although ID definitely deserves a place in the lead, to equate AF with ID is erroneous. It is certainly not an identity that I've seen the NCSE (whose sterling work in documenting the history of these bills I've drawn heavily on) make. Hrafn Talk Stalk 16:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Opponents of Evolution Adopting a New Strategy June 4, 2008 New York Times. Some highlights:
Odd nature ( talk) 19:12, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Another new source They're back!! Jewish Times Odd nature ( talk) 20:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
ASBMB Today August 2008 issue ( American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology p11) mentions us as an 'additional resource' on this topic. Hrafn Talk Stalk 12:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I've moved the Scientific American quote to the intro alongside the WSJ quote because both quotes are relevant to intro and the Scientific American source is very notable. In fact, Branch is more notable and relevant to the topic than WSJ's Stephanie Simon and the Scientific American source is more recent. If two quotes are too much in the intro the one that should come out is the WSJ quote, being less relevant and notable. FeloniousMonk ( talk) 08:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
In summary, I do not agree with this change. I will not edit-war to revert it, but I will not let this issue drop. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 08:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Re-reading the original source, the quote is also mis-attributed and mis-presented. It is part of a piece by Branch and Eugenie Scott, so attributing the quote soley to Branch is inaccurate. It also explicitly starts out "In the meantime, it is clear why the Louisiana Science Education Act is pernicious: it tacitly encourages..." so it would be better to include the quoted passage's direct mention of the quote (either starting at "In the" or "it is clear") than to leave it out, only to reintroduce it as ""[the Louisiana Science Education Act] tacitly encourages..." Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 08:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I would further point out that the quoted excerpt is given no particular prominence within the (quite lengthy) Branch & Scott piece. So, while it is quite legitimate to present it in the context within which it was made (the Louisiana Act), presenting it as having some especial prominence in relation to the general topic would appear to be blowing it out of proportion. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 03:56, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Is the 2009 Florida bill an 'Academic Freedom'-style bill? My impression from the news coverage was that it was a 'pre-Dover'/'Teach the Controversy' era throwback requiring (not merely permitting) teaching of both evolution and ID is evolution was to be taught at all. There have been a vast number of different types of creationist bills introduced throughout the years (NCSE have pages and pages on it), the original intention of this article was to cover those tightly tied to the 'Academic Freedom' theme introduced in Expelled & the DI's petition, so as to keep the narrative coherent. I would suggest if we attempted to cover all creationist bills here, the article would quite quickly get quite unmanageable. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 11:24, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Further complicating this issue is this press release from NCSE, which describes the bill as "Like other 'academic freedom' bills that aim to smuggle creationism back into the classroom", implicitly stating that it is an academic freedom bill. However the quoted text from the bill, requiring "thorough presentation and critical analysis of the scientific theory of evolution", puts it in the Academic Freedom 'precursor' phase of Critical Analysis of Evolution in Neo-Creationism's evolution. I'm currently in two minds as to whether it belongs here or not, so would suggest a wait-and-see approach, to see if other commentators confirm NCSE's description and/or if the bill changes into something more/less AF-related. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Interestingly the full NCSE writeup on this bill makes no mention of 'Academic Freedom'. (The bill itself is here.) Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 14:48, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that this be re-organised so there's a section on state-level bills/acts with (alphabetical?) sub-headings by state. Additionally, the "Overview", "Discovery Institute position" and possibly the section about Expelled should be grouped together. I opted to make a post here rather than try to work something out myself, because I can understand the chronological order it's currently in. However, I think that in the long run my suggestion will make it an easier read.
Also, I created Evolution Academic Freedom Act and Louisiana Academic Freedom Act as redirects to the relevant sections here. If there is a re-organisation, please check for pages such as these to make sure the section they point to is changed accordingly. Recognizance ( talk) 23:14, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
The narrative of the article is essentially: 'the idea started with the Santorum Amendment, it languished in the political wilderness at the state level until Expelled/DI came along and gave it a boost, thereafter it had a big profile failure in Florida & a big profile success in Louisiana.'
The "Roman Catholic opposition" subsection under the Louisiana bill seems a bit sketchy for two reasons. One, is that there is no traceable citation. Two, even if it was effectively cited, the entire section is misleading. It describes an objection by a Roman Catholic in a newspaper piece, presumably a guest editorial. It is the opinion of an individual who happens to be a Roman Catholic. Even if the heading were corrected to "Opposition by a Roman Catholic" or "Opposition by Holly L. Wilson," the lack of notability would be obvious. The section should be deleted unless these two problems can be fixed. I thought I'd post this on the Talk page before editing in case someone wants to suggest a fix before I delete it. Scoopczar ( talk) 03:50, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:16, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
The title of this article was changed without any discussion. It should be put back to what it was because the bills are called Academic Freedom Bills not Anti-evolution Legislation. Readers will search for Academic Freedom Bills. What matters is what the bills are actually called. -- OtisDixon ( talk) 23:20, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
These bills are worded as “academic freedom” bills, but they really are efforts to present foundational science as controversial.. We should not be using the framing of the proponents of the bill when that framing misleads the public. -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 19:36, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Revert --
Dr. Fleischman --
OtisDixon is correct that this should go thru guidelines
WP:MOVE and particularly
WP:RM#CM as this is a contentious area. I suggest that you revert as the way to demonstrate good faith effort towards due process, and then restart that way. It may wind up at the same place, but it would then have demonstrated extra effort to do things the guidelines way, and would also show a full open discussion versus just an action by a solo editor. Cheers,
Markbassett (
talk)
20:21, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources.And:
Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred.And that's not even taking WP:POVTITLE into account. -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 19:48, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
what I think readers will look for in WPAt the risk of beating a dead horse, readers searching for Academic Freedom bills will easily arrive at the WP article they seek, which is this one. Just plain Bill ( talk) 20:36, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:58, 7 July 2017 (UTC)