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Is Fr. Acacio Valbuena Rodríguez Spanish? Redking7 ( talk) 22:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
This is a long post...but only because it deals with imporant and complicated subject matter. It appears we both agree on the following:
It appears we both disagree on the following:
My view is as follows: Moroccon (and 'SADR') nationality and citizenship is purely a question of domestic Moroccon (and 'SADR') law (and has nothing to do with any territorial claims as such). Morocco (and SADR) claims the people of Western Sahara are its citizens. I also believe that (see below) Fr. Rodriguez must be considered one of the people of Western Sahara.
I set out a range of reasons (in my second post above) why I believe it is highly likely Fr. Rodriguez would be regarded in Morocon and 'SADR' law as a citizen. I can't see how this is outlandish. I note again here that Fr. Rodriguez has lived in the territories both Morocco and 'SADR' claim for 50 years +; that few countries exclude such persons from their nationality; and further at least in the case of 'SADR' its committments to international treaties and its willingness to regard 'settlers' as citizens indicates that 'SADR' would very likely treat Fr. Rodriguez as a citizen.
However, while I disagree strongly on all your legal interpretations of nationality and citizenship and suggest you give this more thought - I think perhaps, I made one mistake: In my analysis above, I accorded equal weight and legitimacy to Spanish, Moroccon and 'SADR' (i.e. Sahrawi nationality and citizenship - Sahrawi being the adjective which [if 'SADR' is accepted as a state] would describe its citizens, just as Nigerian and French describes citizens of Niteria and France). 'SADR' is indeed not accepted by the UN and most countries as a state and therefore internationally, most would not regard 'SADR' as capable of having citizens or nationality. This, I think, you may consciously or not have pointed out when you noted "it does not apply to citizens of the SADR except to the extent that it is a nation-state". Clearly, you are correct there. By most 'SADR' is not regarded as a nation-state and so my original contention that the term 'Saharawi' must include 'SADR' citizens regardless of their ethnicity may be wrong. Though that open a whole can of worms on whether it is even correct to refer to there bein a 'SADR'.
Where does this all leave us? In a real muddle so far as Wikipedia categories are concerned. If international acceptance of the 'SADR' state is the crucial test, then the 'SADR' article and many 'SADR' categories may have to be revisited and renamed.
Essentially, to summarise, when I think 'Sahawari', I think of 'SADR' and all pertaining to it (including its 'citizens') as well as ethnic Sahawari today and over the centuries. You on the other hand seem to take 'Sahawari' as relating only to ethnicity, not a state.
I haven't thought through all the implications of your interpretation. If yours is accepted, I think for starters we should change the category Category:Sahrawi people to Category:Sahrawi indigenous people or something to that effect? Of course, my preference remains that we should interprete 'Sahawari' as including things relating to the 'Sahawari Arab Democratic Republic' as well as 'Sahawari' ethnicity. Both viewpoints are legitimate. I take the inclusive interpretation. I also think it accords with existing categorisation of 'SADR' and 'Sahawari' topics on Wikipedia.
You seem in the above to be drawing some distinction between 'nation-state' and 'state'. You might elaborate on how this works in the 'SADR' context and internationally. Who determines which are nation states and what others just states. If that is part of your argument, that 'Sahawari' can't be used to describe things relating to 'SADR', I would be interested to hear your viewpoint and facts and reasons on which you might base it. You might want to review the Constitution of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic which uses the term 'Sahrawi' in so many 'SADR' state contexts etc. first. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 20:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
You might consider all of the above. We may need to move this discussion. Clearly, I don't agree with your interpretation of 'Sahawari'. Redking7 ( talk) 07:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
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Is Fr. Acacio Valbuena Rodríguez Spanish? Redking7 ( talk) 22:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
This is a long post...but only because it deals with imporant and complicated subject matter. It appears we both agree on the following:
It appears we both disagree on the following:
My view is as follows: Moroccon (and 'SADR') nationality and citizenship is purely a question of domestic Moroccon (and 'SADR') law (and has nothing to do with any territorial claims as such). Morocco (and SADR) claims the people of Western Sahara are its citizens. I also believe that (see below) Fr. Rodriguez must be considered one of the people of Western Sahara.
I set out a range of reasons (in my second post above) why I believe it is highly likely Fr. Rodriguez would be regarded in Morocon and 'SADR' law as a citizen. I can't see how this is outlandish. I note again here that Fr. Rodriguez has lived in the territories both Morocco and 'SADR' claim for 50 years +; that few countries exclude such persons from their nationality; and further at least in the case of 'SADR' its committments to international treaties and its willingness to regard 'settlers' as citizens indicates that 'SADR' would very likely treat Fr. Rodriguez as a citizen.
However, while I disagree strongly on all your legal interpretations of nationality and citizenship and suggest you give this more thought - I think perhaps, I made one mistake: In my analysis above, I accorded equal weight and legitimacy to Spanish, Moroccon and 'SADR' (i.e. Sahrawi nationality and citizenship - Sahrawi being the adjective which [if 'SADR' is accepted as a state] would describe its citizens, just as Nigerian and French describes citizens of Niteria and France). 'SADR' is indeed not accepted by the UN and most countries as a state and therefore internationally, most would not regard 'SADR' as capable of having citizens or nationality. This, I think, you may consciously or not have pointed out when you noted "it does not apply to citizens of the SADR except to the extent that it is a nation-state". Clearly, you are correct there. By most 'SADR' is not regarded as a nation-state and so my original contention that the term 'Saharawi' must include 'SADR' citizens regardless of their ethnicity may be wrong. Though that open a whole can of worms on whether it is even correct to refer to there bein a 'SADR'.
Where does this all leave us? In a real muddle so far as Wikipedia categories are concerned. If international acceptance of the 'SADR' state is the crucial test, then the 'SADR' article and many 'SADR' categories may have to be revisited and renamed.
Essentially, to summarise, when I think 'Sahawari', I think of 'SADR' and all pertaining to it (including its 'citizens') as well as ethnic Sahawari today and over the centuries. You on the other hand seem to take 'Sahawari' as relating only to ethnicity, not a state.
I haven't thought through all the implications of your interpretation. If yours is accepted, I think for starters we should change the category Category:Sahrawi people to Category:Sahrawi indigenous people or something to that effect? Of course, my preference remains that we should interprete 'Sahawari' as including things relating to the 'Sahawari Arab Democratic Republic' as well as 'Sahawari' ethnicity. Both viewpoints are legitimate. I take the inclusive interpretation. I also think it accords with existing categorisation of 'SADR' and 'Sahawari' topics on Wikipedia.
You seem in the above to be drawing some distinction between 'nation-state' and 'state'. You might elaborate on how this works in the 'SADR' context and internationally. Who determines which are nation states and what others just states. If that is part of your argument, that 'Sahawari' can't be used to describe things relating to 'SADR', I would be interested to hear your viewpoint and facts and reasons on which you might base it. You might want to review the Constitution of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic which uses the term 'Sahrawi' in so many 'SADR' state contexts etc. first. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 20:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
You might consider all of the above. We may need to move this discussion. Clearly, I don't agree with your interpretation of 'Sahawari'. Redking7 ( talk) 07:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Acacio Valbuena Rodríguez. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:38, 3 October 2016 (UTC)