This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I agree to the merger (unsigned, was User:FreeAmeli)
I wouldn't mind a small merge. Also I moved "Jundub ibn Junadah" to "Abu-Dharr" because that is the name that he is known by as mentioned by Zora. Now we just have to find a way to merge or delete the "Abu Dhar" article. -- a.n.o.n.y.m t 15:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed probably ALL of the merged material. It read like a copyvio from a religious site. There were no references at all, and the language was extremely pious. Not appropriate for an encyclopedia, in my POV at least. Pious traditions can be restored if referenced. At least everything is under Abu Dharr now, where users would expect to find it. Zora 03:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
lord, this is complete shia POV. i wont edit it, zora...here read a sunni source about abu dharr and make the appropriate changes: http://web.umr.edu/~msaumr/reference/companions/English/abudhar.html -- Blingpling 19:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Make sure you remove rafidis. Rafidi is not in any way an early term. The early term is Shi'a. Rafidah and rafidi is a slur by people who hate shi'a. It first came into existence at the Time of Zayd bin Ali bin al-Hussein. Although early shi'a refused at the beginning to pledge allegiance to caliphs, they never referred to themsleves as Rafidis. they always refer to themselves as Shi'a and they are named so by the prophet according to their sources. Shi'a unlike rafidi is a qura'n-ic term and they surely are not the same. you can look for the history of the term rafidi and you will surely never find it in shi'a sources to refer to themselves. User talk:TPW TPW 01:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Zora, it is good to have you on board with this intensity of going out of your way to represent what you think is true. But you have few miconceptions and maybe you need some clarifications. Please do not attack Shi'a because of the fact that I think that the word rafidi is not feasible in this article. Did I mention anywhere that I am shi'a? I agree with you that some early "anti-shia" historians used the term rafidi for shi'a and therefore and for an objective encyclopedia you can not use those slur terms to describe an insignificant name calling to shia' unless you are explaining them. Zayd bin Ali, I am talking about is before the Abbasid's time . His revolution was at the time of the Umayyd. Shi'a say the prophet Mohammad and his cmpnions used to refer to Ali friends as Shi'at Ali or Ali and his Shi'a. The word shi'a as such is not mentioned in the Qura'n but is mentioned in many hadiths. You can find one on Al-Sistani website[ [2]] that says in arabic the prophet said to Ali: "You and your shi'a are in Heaven" and it is referenced to Alm'ojam AlAwsat lil-Tabarani. The word "Shi'a" by itself means "group that follows" and not really party in some of its contexts. Party in arabic is 'Hizb'. Shiya'e pl. of Shi'a means groups and is mentioned frequently in the Qur'an. Also when guests leave a house in the Islamic world the host will go out with him and in arabic they say Shaya'ahu. Also when poeple walk in a funeral after a dead person they call it Tashiyy'e. The Qur'an uses the word shi'a to describe the followers of Moses and to decribe that Ibrahim is a follower of Noah and so on. No shi'a would say the word shi'a in the Qur'an means Shi'a of today. But surely shi'a is a qura'nic terminology, say classy terminology for Muslims. As to the term Shi'a without the mention of Ali was used is pointed in the reference you mentioned and that was right after the death of Imam Hasan bin Ali. And this Shi'a webiste sometimes have sunni articles under the twhid magazine. But the question is which is earlier Shi'a or Rafidah? Imam Sadeq despised the Rafidah as he hated what they did to his uncle Zayd and as he has learned from the prophet through his ancestors. The shia' are proud to refuse to follow abu Bakr, Umar and Uthamn while Caliphs but they do acknowledge their good deeds as compnions of the Prophet. Their main believe is to be Shi'at Ali and AhlulBayt and not to refuse those caliphs. Rafidah for shi'a and some early and late sunni historians are known who they are and they are different from Shi'a. Imam Shafi'i did use the word rafd at the time when anyone who dares to mention good things about Imam Ali would be called Rafidi rather than shi'i or even sunni. And in that way any shi'a would be proud to recite the poetry Shafi'i recited but at the same time denying that they are Rafidi as Shafi'i did. It is all rethoric.
Here is an Arabic article on Sistani website that tells you the exact difference between the Shi'a and Rafida. [3] Have a happy learning experience and please remove the Rafidi from this article. People can click on shi'a and I am sure the term rafidi is discussed there. The Peace Worshipper Talk 18:43, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh and give me one source that class Abu Dhar Rafidi. So even with your clarification this word should not be in this article The Peace Worshipper Talk 18:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I have so much to mess to get out of and it’s just because of our friend Grenavitar. Grenavitar prefers Abu-Dharr al-Ghifari instead of Abu Dharr al-Ghifari. I believe Abu Dharr al-Ghifari is the write way to state the name of Hazrat Abu Zar. Since Abu means father of and if he wants to use Abu-Dharr al-Ghifari just because it is going to be easy for westerners to read, then let me tell him that we should tell/show/explain westerners the right way of pronouncing Arabic names. Thank You Salman
This old version might have some info that is now lost. -- Striver 17:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I have edited and expanded the sunni section. It was way to heavily biased on the Shia sid with alot of POV misleading for any looking for a balanced look on things.
Greensleaves112 Greensleaves112 ( talk) 14:54, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Zabranos ( talk) 12:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC) I am moving the article to Abu Dhar al-Ghifari because it is the most commonly used spelling in English sources/books.
Abi Sukheila states "I went to Hajj with Salman al-Faresi, and on the way we stopped in Rabatha where Abu Dhar al-Ghefaari was in exile (by the order of Uthman ibn Affan)."Glad Tidings of Mustafa for the Shia of Murtaza, By Shaykh Al-Tabari Pg.180
Zabranos ( talk) 04:18, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
"Rabadha, a burning wilderness without water or cultivation, along the way of pilgrims; which, other than at the time of the hajj, becomes empty and silent. There he set up his torn tent and he met his needs with the few goats he had. Months passed. Poverty was increasing and hunger, more brazen. One by one, his goats died and he and his family faced death in the loneliness of the wilderness. His daughter died. He bore it patiently and considered it to have been upon the Way of God. A little later, the wolf of hunger attacked his son. He sensed responsibility. He went to Madinah and sought his wages, which had been cut off, from 'Uthman. 'Uthman did not answer him. He returned empty handed. His son's corpse was cold. He buried him with his own hands. Abu Dhar and Umm Dhar remained alone. Poverty, hunger and decrepitude had greatly weakened Abu Dhar's body. One day he felt he had come to the end of his strength. Hunger bothered him. He said to Umm Dhar, "Arise. Perhaps in this wilderness we will find some blades of grass to quiet our hunger a bit. Woman and man, for a great distance, from the parameters of the tent, searched and found nothing. Upon their return, Abu Dhar lost his strength. The sign of death showed itself in his face. Umm Dhar understood and, anxiously, asked, "What is happening to you, Abu Dhar?" "Separation is near! Leave my corpse on the way and ask wayfarers to help you bury me." - Dr. Ali Shariati
"In al-Rabadhah, Abu Dhar had to put up with a very hard life. It was here that his son Dhar and his wife died and the sheep and goats that he was keeping for his livelihood also died. Of his children only one daughter remained, who equally shared his starvation and troubles. When the means of subsistence were fully exhausted and day after day passed without food she said to Abu Dhar: "Father, how long shall we go on like this. We should go somewhere in search of livelihood." Abu Dhar took her with him and set off for the wilderness. He could not find even any foliage. At last he was tired and sat down at a certain place. Then he collected some sand and, putting his head on it, lay down. Soon he began gasping, his eyes rolled up and pangs of death gripped him. When the daughter saw this condition she was perplexed and said, "Father, if you die in this vast wilderness, how shall I manage for your burial quite alone." He replied, "Do not get upset. The Prophet told me that I shall die in helplessness and some Iraqis would arrange for my burial. After my death you put a sheet over me and then sit by the roadway and when some caravan passes that way tell them that the Prophet's companion Abu Dhar has died." "It was here that his son Dharr and his wife died and the sheep and goats that he was keeping for his livelihood also died. Of his children only one daughter remained, who equally shared his starvation and troubles. When the means of subsistence were fully exhausted and day after day passed without food she said to Abu Dharr "Father, how long shall we go on like this. We should go somewhere in search of livelihood." Abu Dharr took her with him and set off for the wilderness. He could not find any foliage. At last he was tired and sat down at acertain place. Then collected some sand and, putting his head on it, lay down. Soos he began grasping his eyes rolled up and pangs of death gripped him."- Peak of Eloquence pg. 129-130
Some companions of the Prophet Maintained that Ali, the Prophet's son-in-law, was the most suitable successor, relying on various arguments which included, inter alia, that Ali was appointed by the Prophet as the standard bearer at wars, and that he was the Prophet's deputy at Medina during the expedition to Tabuk when Muhammad said to Ali "You are to me what Aaron was to Moses except that there will be no Prophet after me." Then, in his last public adress to the largest gathering before his death three months later, Muhammad too Ali by the hand and declared "He of whom I am the Mawla (patron), of him Ali is also the Mawla. O God, be the friend of him who is his friend, and be the enemey of him who is his enemy." Ali's partisans, in order to preserve the unity of the community, reluctantly swore allegiance to Abu Bakr.
WP:NOTREPOSITORY, point 3. Wikipedia does not allow primary sources to be used since it is a encyclopedia. Please remove all hadiths from this article. Zabranos ( talk) 00:01, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
This is not my personal opinion it is the opinion of Qwyrxian who pointed that out to me when I was adding primary sources in the past. Qwyrxian was the one that pointed that hadiths cannot be used because of WP:NOTREPOSITORY, point 3. But thank you for clarifying the policy. But I still think that we should remove the hadith since no one knows how accurate/authentic they are. Hadiths should only be used if a scholar states that they are historically accurate. And in terms of this article the hadiths are not used properly since they are not stated by historical scholars. Personally, I think that primary sources that are historically accurate can be used for scholarly work. Sorry for being misled.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Abu Dhar al-Ghifari. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:41, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Abu Dhar al-Ghifari. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:43, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
I have made changes and someone is trying to remove them, may i know why? I see that this article is heavily Shia biased and I want a more neutral point of view. As for the banishment to Al Rabadha, I see this is only found in contemporary works like that of Madelung's. However, These works were made hundreds of years later and thus only early sources can be used as proof. The early sources do not support this notion and therefore I conclude that this banishment cannot be firmly established from the primary sources Islamdefence ( talk) 12:21, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Any changes that anyone wants to make should be discussed here first. Islamdefence ( talk) 18:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I agree to the merger (unsigned, was User:FreeAmeli)
I wouldn't mind a small merge. Also I moved "Jundub ibn Junadah" to "Abu-Dharr" because that is the name that he is known by as mentioned by Zora. Now we just have to find a way to merge or delete the "Abu Dhar" article. -- a.n.o.n.y.m t 15:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed probably ALL of the merged material. It read like a copyvio from a religious site. There were no references at all, and the language was extremely pious. Not appropriate for an encyclopedia, in my POV at least. Pious traditions can be restored if referenced. At least everything is under Abu Dharr now, where users would expect to find it. Zora 03:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
lord, this is complete shia POV. i wont edit it, zora...here read a sunni source about abu dharr and make the appropriate changes: http://web.umr.edu/~msaumr/reference/companions/English/abudhar.html -- Blingpling 19:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Make sure you remove rafidis. Rafidi is not in any way an early term. The early term is Shi'a. Rafidah and rafidi is a slur by people who hate shi'a. It first came into existence at the Time of Zayd bin Ali bin al-Hussein. Although early shi'a refused at the beginning to pledge allegiance to caliphs, they never referred to themsleves as Rafidis. they always refer to themselves as Shi'a and they are named so by the prophet according to their sources. Shi'a unlike rafidi is a qura'n-ic term and they surely are not the same. you can look for the history of the term rafidi and you will surely never find it in shi'a sources to refer to themselves. User talk:TPW TPW 01:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Zora, it is good to have you on board with this intensity of going out of your way to represent what you think is true. But you have few miconceptions and maybe you need some clarifications. Please do not attack Shi'a because of the fact that I think that the word rafidi is not feasible in this article. Did I mention anywhere that I am shi'a? I agree with you that some early "anti-shia" historians used the term rafidi for shi'a and therefore and for an objective encyclopedia you can not use those slur terms to describe an insignificant name calling to shia' unless you are explaining them. Zayd bin Ali, I am talking about is before the Abbasid's time . His revolution was at the time of the Umayyd. Shi'a say the prophet Mohammad and his cmpnions used to refer to Ali friends as Shi'at Ali or Ali and his Shi'a. The word shi'a as such is not mentioned in the Qura'n but is mentioned in many hadiths. You can find one on Al-Sistani website[ [2]] that says in arabic the prophet said to Ali: "You and your shi'a are in Heaven" and it is referenced to Alm'ojam AlAwsat lil-Tabarani. The word "Shi'a" by itself means "group that follows" and not really party in some of its contexts. Party in arabic is 'Hizb'. Shiya'e pl. of Shi'a means groups and is mentioned frequently in the Qur'an. Also when guests leave a house in the Islamic world the host will go out with him and in arabic they say Shaya'ahu. Also when poeple walk in a funeral after a dead person they call it Tashiyy'e. The Qur'an uses the word shi'a to describe the followers of Moses and to decribe that Ibrahim is a follower of Noah and so on. No shi'a would say the word shi'a in the Qur'an means Shi'a of today. But surely shi'a is a qura'nic terminology, say classy terminology for Muslims. As to the term Shi'a without the mention of Ali was used is pointed in the reference you mentioned and that was right after the death of Imam Hasan bin Ali. And this Shi'a webiste sometimes have sunni articles under the twhid magazine. But the question is which is earlier Shi'a or Rafidah? Imam Sadeq despised the Rafidah as he hated what they did to his uncle Zayd and as he has learned from the prophet through his ancestors. The shia' are proud to refuse to follow abu Bakr, Umar and Uthamn while Caliphs but they do acknowledge their good deeds as compnions of the Prophet. Their main believe is to be Shi'at Ali and AhlulBayt and not to refuse those caliphs. Rafidah for shi'a and some early and late sunni historians are known who they are and they are different from Shi'a. Imam Shafi'i did use the word rafd at the time when anyone who dares to mention good things about Imam Ali would be called Rafidi rather than shi'i or even sunni. And in that way any shi'a would be proud to recite the poetry Shafi'i recited but at the same time denying that they are Rafidi as Shafi'i did. It is all rethoric.
Here is an Arabic article on Sistani website that tells you the exact difference between the Shi'a and Rafida. [3] Have a happy learning experience and please remove the Rafidi from this article. People can click on shi'a and I am sure the term rafidi is discussed there. The Peace Worshipper Talk 18:43, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh and give me one source that class Abu Dhar Rafidi. So even with your clarification this word should not be in this article The Peace Worshipper Talk 18:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I have so much to mess to get out of and it’s just because of our friend Grenavitar. Grenavitar prefers Abu-Dharr al-Ghifari instead of Abu Dharr al-Ghifari. I believe Abu Dharr al-Ghifari is the write way to state the name of Hazrat Abu Zar. Since Abu means father of and if he wants to use Abu-Dharr al-Ghifari just because it is going to be easy for westerners to read, then let me tell him that we should tell/show/explain westerners the right way of pronouncing Arabic names. Thank You Salman
This old version might have some info that is now lost. -- Striver 17:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I have edited and expanded the sunni section. It was way to heavily biased on the Shia sid with alot of POV misleading for any looking for a balanced look on things.
Greensleaves112 Greensleaves112 ( talk) 14:54, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Zabranos ( talk) 12:10, 1 August 2013 (UTC) I am moving the article to Abu Dhar al-Ghifari because it is the most commonly used spelling in English sources/books.
Abi Sukheila states "I went to Hajj with Salman al-Faresi, and on the way we stopped in Rabatha where Abu Dhar al-Ghefaari was in exile (by the order of Uthman ibn Affan)."Glad Tidings of Mustafa for the Shia of Murtaza, By Shaykh Al-Tabari Pg.180
Zabranos ( talk) 04:18, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
"Rabadha, a burning wilderness without water or cultivation, along the way of pilgrims; which, other than at the time of the hajj, becomes empty and silent. There he set up his torn tent and he met his needs with the few goats he had. Months passed. Poverty was increasing and hunger, more brazen. One by one, his goats died and he and his family faced death in the loneliness of the wilderness. His daughter died. He bore it patiently and considered it to have been upon the Way of God. A little later, the wolf of hunger attacked his son. He sensed responsibility. He went to Madinah and sought his wages, which had been cut off, from 'Uthman. 'Uthman did not answer him. He returned empty handed. His son's corpse was cold. He buried him with his own hands. Abu Dhar and Umm Dhar remained alone. Poverty, hunger and decrepitude had greatly weakened Abu Dhar's body. One day he felt he had come to the end of his strength. Hunger bothered him. He said to Umm Dhar, "Arise. Perhaps in this wilderness we will find some blades of grass to quiet our hunger a bit. Woman and man, for a great distance, from the parameters of the tent, searched and found nothing. Upon their return, Abu Dhar lost his strength. The sign of death showed itself in his face. Umm Dhar understood and, anxiously, asked, "What is happening to you, Abu Dhar?" "Separation is near! Leave my corpse on the way and ask wayfarers to help you bury me." - Dr. Ali Shariati
"In al-Rabadhah, Abu Dhar had to put up with a very hard life. It was here that his son Dhar and his wife died and the sheep and goats that he was keeping for his livelihood also died. Of his children only one daughter remained, who equally shared his starvation and troubles. When the means of subsistence were fully exhausted and day after day passed without food she said to Abu Dhar: "Father, how long shall we go on like this. We should go somewhere in search of livelihood." Abu Dhar took her with him and set off for the wilderness. He could not find even any foliage. At last he was tired and sat down at a certain place. Then he collected some sand and, putting his head on it, lay down. Soon he began gasping, his eyes rolled up and pangs of death gripped him. When the daughter saw this condition she was perplexed and said, "Father, if you die in this vast wilderness, how shall I manage for your burial quite alone." He replied, "Do not get upset. The Prophet told me that I shall die in helplessness and some Iraqis would arrange for my burial. After my death you put a sheet over me and then sit by the roadway and when some caravan passes that way tell them that the Prophet's companion Abu Dhar has died." "It was here that his son Dharr and his wife died and the sheep and goats that he was keeping for his livelihood also died. Of his children only one daughter remained, who equally shared his starvation and troubles. When the means of subsistence were fully exhausted and day after day passed without food she said to Abu Dharr "Father, how long shall we go on like this. We should go somewhere in search of livelihood." Abu Dharr took her with him and set off for the wilderness. He could not find any foliage. At last he was tired and sat down at acertain place. Then collected some sand and, putting his head on it, lay down. Soos he began grasping his eyes rolled up and pangs of death gripped him."- Peak of Eloquence pg. 129-130
Some companions of the Prophet Maintained that Ali, the Prophet's son-in-law, was the most suitable successor, relying on various arguments which included, inter alia, that Ali was appointed by the Prophet as the standard bearer at wars, and that he was the Prophet's deputy at Medina during the expedition to Tabuk when Muhammad said to Ali "You are to me what Aaron was to Moses except that there will be no Prophet after me." Then, in his last public adress to the largest gathering before his death three months later, Muhammad too Ali by the hand and declared "He of whom I am the Mawla (patron), of him Ali is also the Mawla. O God, be the friend of him who is his friend, and be the enemey of him who is his enemy." Ali's partisans, in order to preserve the unity of the community, reluctantly swore allegiance to Abu Bakr.
WP:NOTREPOSITORY, point 3. Wikipedia does not allow primary sources to be used since it is a encyclopedia. Please remove all hadiths from this article. Zabranos ( talk) 00:01, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
This is not my personal opinion it is the opinion of Qwyrxian who pointed that out to me when I was adding primary sources in the past. Qwyrxian was the one that pointed that hadiths cannot be used because of WP:NOTREPOSITORY, point 3. But thank you for clarifying the policy. But I still think that we should remove the hadith since no one knows how accurate/authentic they are. Hadiths should only be used if a scholar states that they are historically accurate. And in terms of this article the hadiths are not used properly since they are not stated by historical scholars. Personally, I think that primary sources that are historically accurate can be used for scholarly work. Sorry for being misled.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Abu Dhar al-Ghifari. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:41, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Abu Dhar al-Ghifari. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:43, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
I have made changes and someone is trying to remove them, may i know why? I see that this article is heavily Shia biased and I want a more neutral point of view. As for the banishment to Al Rabadha, I see this is only found in contemporary works like that of Madelung's. However, These works were made hundreds of years later and thus only early sources can be used as proof. The early sources do not support this notion and therefore I conclude that this banishment cannot be firmly established from the primary sources Islamdefence ( talk) 12:21, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Any changes that anyone wants to make should be discussed here first. Islamdefence ( talk) 18:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)