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Pytalovo is not "an unrelated Russian name given to the city" in order to claim it as Russian.
This is a historic Russian name of the village in the region which was always ethnically Russian and before border agreement between Latvia and Soviet Union that followed Riga peace treaty of August11, 1920 Pytalovo/Abrente was part of Russia proper.
There are Russian fortifications and churches in the region that date back to 15th century, when it was part of Pskov region/principality of Russia/Muscovy.
Latvia never existed as an independent nation before 1918. Pytalovo region is presently part of Russia, just as it was historically exept for a short period between 1920-1939.
Refrences:
http://www.pytalovo.ellink.ru/letopis.htm,
http://www.pytalovo.ellink.ru/history.htm (Russian)
-
Fisenko
Latvia did invaded ethnic Russian villages of the region in July 1919. Villages Pytalovo, Nosovo, Vyshgorok etc. were areas of heavy fighting between Russian Bolsheviks and Latvians prior to their surrender in 1920.
The point is: Pytalovo was historically a Russian community and part of Russia prior to the conquest of the rest of Latvia ( Swedish Livonia at the time). Pytalovo BTW was part of Peterburg gubernya rather than Courland or Livonia. - Fisenko
First, the articles is wrongly states what the region is part of Latvia, while currently it is a part of the Russian Federation.
Second, the articles clearly implies that the region had ethnic Latvian majority which was later forced out and "changed by Russians", which is also inaccurate.
Finally, the article implies that the region is historically Latvian rather than Russian, once again this is not true. - Fisenko
1) The town and the region were not renamed from Abrene to Pytalovo in order to be "Russified" but were given their original Russian names that existed long before.
2)The article should be entitled Pytalovo/Abrene region and the fact its is claimed by Latvia should not be the main meassage of the article.
3)The link to "Occupied territories of Baltic States" should not be there. - Fisenko
I edited the article after carefully reading the discussion above. I hope my edit is found agreeable. Just one elabroation on my edit. "Controlled by Russia" in the very beginning of the article does not sound neutral. It makes an impression that an article makes judgement about the territorial dispute which it should not. It should simply inform the reader as neutrally as possible. "Currently of Russia" seems to do this better. The reader still gets the historical picture of the dispute. Irpen 03:54, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
I don't really want to wade into this argument, but... well... I will! "Pytalovo" is not a "historic Russian name" but etymologically Baltic ("Pietālava"), and the contention that it "was always" Russian is absolutely false -- see the German linguist Bielenstein's studies of the area in the 19th C or Toporov on toponyms; anyway "Abrene," like "Jaunlatgale," is a newfangled apellation. To distill the question, one can say that the area was russified whilst part of Pskov gubernya, in a place that was always a point of friction between Balts and Slavs, eventually and roughly along the line of a slight ridge (running between that part of the Abrene district still in Latvia and that part now illegally annexed to Russia). The ethnographic question and the legal argument must be separated to make sense of it. If we speak of linguistic and cultural space, then it's a complex question -- if we speak of ethnographical determinations, then the border was most definitely drawn east of that slight ridge ("Viļakas valnis"), for reasons I won't get into here. To quote Edgars Andersons (Latvijas vēsture 1914-1920, p. 606): "Especially in the north, the Russians had agreed to the Latvians' strategic demands, not complaining about the ethnographic principle having been disregarded. Several pagasti [civil parishes] were completely Russian." The town of Jaunlatgale/Abrene/Pytalovo itself did not exist until 1919. If we speak of politics and international law, then the area was stolen outright, by Russia (the RSFSR). A common misconception on the Latvian side is that "the Abrene district" was majority "Latvian" prior to annexation -- that's simply not so, because the "Abrene district" (not "region") was split (at least) twice, and the part annexed to Russia was always (by that I mean during the existence of the Latvian nation-state) majority "Russian" (read "russified," and by that I mean "culturally" or "linguistically"). If you study the demographics in the last century, then you shall find that the civil parish of Viļaka (to the west of that ridge) was 89% ethnically Latvian, whilst the parishes to the east (Linava and Purvmala) -- annexed to the RSFSR, now the Russian Federation -- were 3% and 8% ethnically Latvian respectively. Ethnicity, however -- or, to be precise, ethnic identity -- was not, is not, and never was the sole determining factor for frontiers. When the negotiations setting the border were concluded (the border wasn't actually finalized until 7 April 1923), fairly large communities of ethnic Russians and Latvians were left on the "wrong" side in different places (at Drisa-Sebeža, for example, 29 100 Latvians were left on the Russian side); where later legality is concerned, what is now Pytalovo was most certainly annexed illegally (and if anybody has any arguments to the contrary, I'd love to hear them!). We are talking about an area that was very small by population and backward by economic development -- the town of Abrene (Pytalovo) itself, for instance, in 1935, consisted of churches, 114 dwellings (primarily single-story houses without indoor plumbing), 109 shops, two elementary schools and one Russian language secondary school -- the total population in 1935 was 1242, including 484 Latvians; 52,4% of the population was ethnically Russian, 38,6% ethnically Latvian. The Russian language school was built in the interbellum Republic -- in fact, Latvian nationalists blame the Republic for hastening russification by offering cultural autonomy. An illustration of the complexity is the fact that most of the Latvians in the northernmost civil parish, Kacēnu pagasts, came from the so-called "Lauru kolonija" -- part of the Latvian nation stranded in Estonia, now part of the Estonian territory taken by Russia and home of the Setu people. Pēteris Cedriņš 22:44, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I took the liberty of deleting this flag, since the article reads neutral-enough to me and there have been no substantial edits related to POV for some months.... FRS 20:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I suspect that we are not going to agree about the etymology, Ghirlandajo, but there is considerable material on the Baltic toponyms in the area (by prominent Russian linguists, too, like Toporov), and the area was definitely inhabited by Finno-Ugric and Baltic speakers before it was inhabited by Slavs, though it was an area of friction. The German linguist August Bielenstein (not a Latvian, so no axe to grind!) made a study of the people in the region in the 19th C -- they still spoke Latvian, though many had been converted to Orthodoxy. See my post above, please. The terra "Tolowa, Tholowa" is mentioned as early as 1224, and again by the Arab geographer Ibn el-Wardi (d. 1349) as "Atlawa." In 1255, Pope Alexander IV writes of Tolowe et Selonie (Tolowa and Selonia). The name likely derives from the river Tolva (Tolba, Toloba), which flows into Lake Peipus; according to Vasmer the root is the Finno-Ugric tulva (tributary, flood). What I wrote earlier was indeed imprecise, since "Pietālava" is modern Latvian (approximating the actual meaning); to be precise, the Latgalians absorbed and transmuted the Finno-Ugric -- the word was also applied to the lake, which was long the border between Tolowa and Pskov. -- Pēteris Cedriņš 22:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I made another minor edit, and I hope it does not start a minor war... in my opinion, the use of "reannexed" with reference to the war and 1944 is misleading, since Latvia was occupied in 1940 (not making mention of the occupation but saying "reannexed" is confusing, since Latvia was occupied prior to the war -- that it was occupied by the Soviets, the Nazis, and then the Soviets again does not re-annexation make, since it was never formally de-annexed and did not regain its independence). The terms "Latvian minority" and "ethnic Russians" were unclear, too -- is a Russified Latvian an "ethnic Russian," and does "minority" refer to ethnicity? The Russians in Abrene were Latvian citizens, and unless somebody goes to the trouble of explaining what that means it is senseless to parse their ethnicity. I added some particulars (e.g., on the deportations) and clarified the fact that it was not the entire district but its eastern civil parishes that were annexed. -- Pēteris Cedriņš 23:53, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Ghirlandajo, I am reverting the page because you do not provide sufficient justification for your very questionable changes, which are obviously not neutral POV (e.g., you changed "annexation" to "liberation," "russified" to "delatvianized," etc.). That terrible things happened all over the USSR is no reason to remove specific information on how the region was ethnically cleansed and its original inhabitants (of whatever ethnicity) in large part replaced by others. -- Pēteris Cedriņš 01:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
sveiki! I supplied some edit summaries with my corrections. Basically, the problem is that the article is one-sided towards the Latvian POV on the dispute. It is not your fault since you base your writings on the Latvian sources. I will ask some Russian editors that I know to have knowledge of the subject to look at it. I corrected only what seemed obvious to me. See my summaries for the reasons. Regards, -- Irpen 16:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
There is no doubt that it was annexation. I did not insert "liberation" and have no intention to do it. My problem, for example, is with using "return to Latvia", because every piece of land in Europe can be transferred to a number of countries and this could be called "return". Under this logic, Kiev or Smolensk could be "returned" to Poland, Warsaw could be "returned" to Russia, Gdansk to Germany and Bretagne to the UK. Similarly, talking about the lack of plebiscite, is like talking about the lack of multiparty democracy. It is a tautology to raise this in every USSR-reraled article. Stuff like "can't visit graves" looked strange in your version because it is not clear what exactly the problem is as I explained in the edit summary. I only corrected the obvious things and it will take a more knowledgeable editor to do more. Please, no flames. -- Irpen 17:13, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
OK, the graves issue looks fine with me now. Legality from the International Law viewpoint may be covered and I have no problem with that. But basing an entire issue on the Treaty of Riga is a POV. The Helsinki accords come into play when talking about territorial demands of one country to another. Also, AFAIK, Latvia, when joining NATO had to officially rescind any territorial claims it could have to its neighbors.
In a similar fashion, the fact the transfer was made through a Presidium decision instead of the Supreme Soviet's one is relevant. However, the plebiscite is an anachronism when talking about the Soviet Union in that time. By this logic you could mention a lack of plebiscite every time when a new republic leader was appointed from Moscow. Lack of democracy in the Soviet Union belongs to the History of the USSR series. Similarly, no one is bringing the issue of Nazi collaboration in Latvia into this article. This simply does not belong to this article. -- Irpen 18:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Irpen, but my sentence said "surveys show," and that is what surveys show. Besides, your sentence was ungrammatical. --
Pēteris Cedriņš 01:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I did not say anything about pleasant and unpleasant. And I do not object to the mention of the international law's position. My objection is specifically against the word "returned" to Latvia. It's usage adds nothing but a POV. It may rightfully belong to Latvia under the international law. It may belong to Russia too depending of how we interpret these laws and what we make a starting point to consider it fair borders. You are correct that annexation is illegal and there is no need to balance this statement. However, "Return to Latvia" has a meaning which is broader than the legal one. In reality, attaching this area to any of the two countries was and would be a "return" because the History didn't start in 1920. Therefore, I object to using the word "return". I don't care if Latvians were asked in the survey "do you believe the area will return to Latvia?", or "do you believe the area will belong to Latvia?". This is up to those who wrote the survey question. I am sure that Latvians would answer identically to these two questions. However, the word "return" in the text makes a judgement. Latvians may very well feel that the territory is "lost" while Russian may believe that the territory was "returned" as well as the name of the town. Those who chose how to formulate these questions had their judgement and formulated the question accordingly. We, at Wikipedia, cannot make such judgement and should you neutral phrasing. "Belong" or "be part of" is, therefore, more appropriate. Finally, I request you to discuss things in a more collegiate manner. I haven't given you any reason not to. -- Irpen 03:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with your de facto - de jure approach. It belongs to Latvia de jure only if 1920 Riga is taken as the sole basis to resolve the legal dispute. International law is by far less clear cut than criminal laws or country's conrtituions and also, there is no authority, like the Supreme Court or Constitutional court (Hague has a narrow authority and no enforecement mechanism, UN Security Counsil is anything but a court-like structure). Therefore, your "would ever belong de-facto", which implies that it does belong de-jure should be modified. We either say that it belongs de-jure by Riga, but other interpreations are possible and add Helsinki, as well as the fact the dissolution of the USSR has occured by that time's administrative borders. You could also add the prolonged discussion whether Latvia was actually ever part of the USSR because, on one hand it was occupied, on the other hand it was as much a souvereign republic as the founding republics like Ukraine and Belarus. This discussion would get long and only to justify your "de jure" word. There is no need for these complications. The discussion of complex questions, especially the controversial ones, should be confined within narrow articles. Here, it suffices to say that the region, as well as an entire Latvia was occupied, and that it was transferred from one republic to another.
As for the survey, if you insist on quoting it with the word "return", please add to it that the area is considered "returned" or "to be returned" by both sides for this and that reason. Again, this would necessiate a lengthy discussion which will not add anything to the reader's understanding of the article. -- Irpen 18:31, 29 November 2005 (UTC) -- Irpen 18:31, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to kindly ask some users to cease making pointless, ill willed edits, while citing ludicrous grounds.
That Baltic States were occupied by and illegally annexed into USSR is a well known historical fact, mentioned in numerous sources. I'll name two here:
- "The Encyclopedia of World History. 2001." available at online reference site www.bartleby.com
"Ultimatums of June 15, 16, 1940, charged hostile activities; Russia had occupied the Baltics militarily and had arranged for pro-Soviet administrations to request admittance to the Soviet Union." The Baltic States a. Overview
- "Encyclopedia BRITANNICA Online" has a section on the soviet Occupation under History of Baltic States The establishment of independence and the 20th century > Soviet occupation
That some users do not wish to acknowledge certain historical facts, or do not like them mentioned, does not constitute sufficient grounds for calling them POV and removing them.
Likewise, an explanation regarding the de iure/de facto "doubts" was given. Simply put, the title to Abrene district has never legally (pursuant to agreement between both parties) passed from Latvia to Soviet Union or Russia. Thus it de iure still belongs to Latvia while Russia exercises de facto control over it.
The facts regarding collectivisation are mentioned, for instance, by Dominiks Kaupuzs in his letter to Secretary of VKP(b) Malenkov (available at Latvian State Archives, archival reference LVA SPDN, 101.f., 9.apr., 98.l, 124-125.lp), article in Latvian available here.
I'm reverting some of the changes made to this article today, and respectfully ask once again - please cease making pointless edits while stating dubious or plainly ludicrous reasons for doing so.
Thank you! user:Doc15071969
Peteris, when you say "part of Latvia, administered by Russia" or "de jure Latvian, de facto Russian" you could only mean that the Riga treaty is the ultimate truth. This is not the only factor to decide on the issue. There is a clear administrative Soviet border and the acts of the dissolution where based on these borders. There is also an act of transfer, there is Helsinki too. Besides, there is a RU empire administrative subdivisions and who knows what else.
You may try to impeach an act of transfer based on the fact that it was adopted by Presidium and not by the Supreme soviet. You may also try impeach an entire Soviet period based on the fact that the occupation was illegal, but as I said the international law is not clear-cut. When there is a real-life legal dispute, we go to a court who would solve it. Here, there is no court and yours, mine or any scholars opinion has no authority to decide on it, although I agree that scholar's opinion may be presented.
Russia didn't annex the district. The Soviet Union annexed Latvia. The internal border redrawing afterwards is not an annexation. Russia didn't exist as an international etnity at that time. I am fine when you add background info. But its not OK to use POV terms that imply something disputable as if it isn't. You can preset this info without using "return" or "de jure". This is not, as you put it, an attempt to substitute occupation by liberation in order to settle later for "control". The terms you used were objected to because they were POV.
And finally, Russification does belong to the History of Latvia. It does not belong, however, to the article about every Latvian city. For an example of how not two write articles check the third paragraph of the Kamianets-Podilskyi#History section where the 20th century history of Ukraine is attempted to be told in 2 sentences. Complex issues have to be presented in context. Therefore, collectivization is a great topic for the article but not a theme to punch every time anyone has a grudge towards Moscow. -- Irpen
Peter, I make no comment regarding everything else, but I object to using the term "restoration", "return" etc in respect to Pytalovo/Abrene district. I explained it above in details. Thank you. -- Irpen 15:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
The only one consistently and obnoxiously introducing your obviously biased POV, by trying to delete or substitute for speculations facts not to your liking, are you, dear Ghirlandajo. Non-recognition policy whereby most Western democracies adhered to international obligations dating back already to Kellogg-Briand pact and adopted by the International Law Association, in 1934., Budapest Articles of Interpretation to that pact, and refused to recognize as acquired
de iure Soviet territorial acquisitions made pursuant to Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, is a widely known and well documented fact of history. Learn to deal somehow with facts not to your liking, get at least a basic understanding of the issue—starting, say, from looking for "non recognition Baltic" on google,—and, most importantly, please cease making pointless, unwarranted edits :)
From « Budapest Articles of Interpretation» to Kellogg-Briand pact:
«“(2) A signatory State which threatens to resort to armed force for the solution of an international dispute of conflict is guilty of a violation of the Pact.
(..)
“(5) The signatory States are not entitled to recognize as acquired de jure any territorial or other advantages acquired de facto by means of a violation of the Pact.
“(6) A violating State is liable to pay compensation for all damage caused by a violation of the Pact to any signatory State or to its nationals.» -- Doc15071969 14:36, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest that this discussion would go better if we eliminated any "position" where we simply repeat the stated position of either of the current governments (including Putin's donkey ears), and just dealt with the facts. If we want to talk about "historical" inhabitants of an area, how far back do we want to go? There were the Finno-Ugrian tribe before the Balts... there were the Balts all over what is now western Russia before the Russians--Volga is a Baltic, not Russian, word. Much closer to recent times, and to the point in question, the Soviet Union's own documents, unearthed in Russian archives, discuss the Abrene region refering to it as being Latvian and refering to all the place names by their Latvian names. Given the choice between Soviet documents in Russian archives and PR statements by the Russian foreign ministry (or Putin's donkey ears), I would believe the documents first. (And a position that whatever is going on does not apply to Russia because whatever was done was done by the Soviet Union is specious at best. The territory was annexed into the Russian SSR, not some independent Soviet protectorate. Nor has Russia done anything to distance herself from her Soviet past--quite the contrary, but that's another discussion.) Peters 20:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Would it be possible to have a map made of the territories that were lost to the Baltic States from the national borders set out in the 1920 treaties? This would really help in a visual sense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.246.4.30 ( talk • contribs).
Just to be clear, was the district divided by the Soviets along the Viļaka ridge? Did the ridge become the border? It's not clear from the article. Indisciplined ( talk) 19:14, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
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Pytalovo is not "an unrelated Russian name given to the city" in order to claim it as Russian.
This is a historic Russian name of the village in the region which was always ethnically Russian and before border agreement between Latvia and Soviet Union that followed Riga peace treaty of August11, 1920 Pytalovo/Abrente was part of Russia proper.
There are Russian fortifications and churches in the region that date back to 15th century, when it was part of Pskov region/principality of Russia/Muscovy.
Latvia never existed as an independent nation before 1918. Pytalovo region is presently part of Russia, just as it was historically exept for a short period between 1920-1939.
Refrences:
http://www.pytalovo.ellink.ru/letopis.htm,
http://www.pytalovo.ellink.ru/history.htm (Russian)
-
Fisenko
Latvia did invaded ethnic Russian villages of the region in July 1919. Villages Pytalovo, Nosovo, Vyshgorok etc. were areas of heavy fighting between Russian Bolsheviks and Latvians prior to their surrender in 1920.
The point is: Pytalovo was historically a Russian community and part of Russia prior to the conquest of the rest of Latvia ( Swedish Livonia at the time). Pytalovo BTW was part of Peterburg gubernya rather than Courland or Livonia. - Fisenko
First, the articles is wrongly states what the region is part of Latvia, while currently it is a part of the Russian Federation.
Second, the articles clearly implies that the region had ethnic Latvian majority which was later forced out and "changed by Russians", which is also inaccurate.
Finally, the article implies that the region is historically Latvian rather than Russian, once again this is not true. - Fisenko
1) The town and the region were not renamed from Abrene to Pytalovo in order to be "Russified" but were given their original Russian names that existed long before.
2)The article should be entitled Pytalovo/Abrene region and the fact its is claimed by Latvia should not be the main meassage of the article.
3)The link to "Occupied territories of Baltic States" should not be there. - Fisenko
I edited the article after carefully reading the discussion above. I hope my edit is found agreeable. Just one elabroation on my edit. "Controlled by Russia" in the very beginning of the article does not sound neutral. It makes an impression that an article makes judgement about the territorial dispute which it should not. It should simply inform the reader as neutrally as possible. "Currently of Russia" seems to do this better. The reader still gets the historical picture of the dispute. Irpen 03:54, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
I don't really want to wade into this argument, but... well... I will! "Pytalovo" is not a "historic Russian name" but etymologically Baltic ("Pietālava"), and the contention that it "was always" Russian is absolutely false -- see the German linguist Bielenstein's studies of the area in the 19th C or Toporov on toponyms; anyway "Abrene," like "Jaunlatgale," is a newfangled apellation. To distill the question, one can say that the area was russified whilst part of Pskov gubernya, in a place that was always a point of friction between Balts and Slavs, eventually and roughly along the line of a slight ridge (running between that part of the Abrene district still in Latvia and that part now illegally annexed to Russia). The ethnographic question and the legal argument must be separated to make sense of it. If we speak of linguistic and cultural space, then it's a complex question -- if we speak of ethnographical determinations, then the border was most definitely drawn east of that slight ridge ("Viļakas valnis"), for reasons I won't get into here. To quote Edgars Andersons (Latvijas vēsture 1914-1920, p. 606): "Especially in the north, the Russians had agreed to the Latvians' strategic demands, not complaining about the ethnographic principle having been disregarded. Several pagasti [civil parishes] were completely Russian." The town of Jaunlatgale/Abrene/Pytalovo itself did not exist until 1919. If we speak of politics and international law, then the area was stolen outright, by Russia (the RSFSR). A common misconception on the Latvian side is that "the Abrene district" was majority "Latvian" prior to annexation -- that's simply not so, because the "Abrene district" (not "region") was split (at least) twice, and the part annexed to Russia was always (by that I mean during the existence of the Latvian nation-state) majority "Russian" (read "russified," and by that I mean "culturally" or "linguistically"). If you study the demographics in the last century, then you shall find that the civil parish of Viļaka (to the west of that ridge) was 89% ethnically Latvian, whilst the parishes to the east (Linava and Purvmala) -- annexed to the RSFSR, now the Russian Federation -- were 3% and 8% ethnically Latvian respectively. Ethnicity, however -- or, to be precise, ethnic identity -- was not, is not, and never was the sole determining factor for frontiers. When the negotiations setting the border were concluded (the border wasn't actually finalized until 7 April 1923), fairly large communities of ethnic Russians and Latvians were left on the "wrong" side in different places (at Drisa-Sebeža, for example, 29 100 Latvians were left on the Russian side); where later legality is concerned, what is now Pytalovo was most certainly annexed illegally (and if anybody has any arguments to the contrary, I'd love to hear them!). We are talking about an area that was very small by population and backward by economic development -- the town of Abrene (Pytalovo) itself, for instance, in 1935, consisted of churches, 114 dwellings (primarily single-story houses without indoor plumbing), 109 shops, two elementary schools and one Russian language secondary school -- the total population in 1935 was 1242, including 484 Latvians; 52,4% of the population was ethnically Russian, 38,6% ethnically Latvian. The Russian language school was built in the interbellum Republic -- in fact, Latvian nationalists blame the Republic for hastening russification by offering cultural autonomy. An illustration of the complexity is the fact that most of the Latvians in the northernmost civil parish, Kacēnu pagasts, came from the so-called "Lauru kolonija" -- part of the Latvian nation stranded in Estonia, now part of the Estonian territory taken by Russia and home of the Setu people. Pēteris Cedriņš 22:44, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I took the liberty of deleting this flag, since the article reads neutral-enough to me and there have been no substantial edits related to POV for some months.... FRS 20:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I suspect that we are not going to agree about the etymology, Ghirlandajo, but there is considerable material on the Baltic toponyms in the area (by prominent Russian linguists, too, like Toporov), and the area was definitely inhabited by Finno-Ugric and Baltic speakers before it was inhabited by Slavs, though it was an area of friction. The German linguist August Bielenstein (not a Latvian, so no axe to grind!) made a study of the people in the region in the 19th C -- they still spoke Latvian, though many had been converted to Orthodoxy. See my post above, please. The terra "Tolowa, Tholowa" is mentioned as early as 1224, and again by the Arab geographer Ibn el-Wardi (d. 1349) as "Atlawa." In 1255, Pope Alexander IV writes of Tolowe et Selonie (Tolowa and Selonia). The name likely derives from the river Tolva (Tolba, Toloba), which flows into Lake Peipus; according to Vasmer the root is the Finno-Ugric tulva (tributary, flood). What I wrote earlier was indeed imprecise, since "Pietālava" is modern Latvian (approximating the actual meaning); to be precise, the Latgalians absorbed and transmuted the Finno-Ugric -- the word was also applied to the lake, which was long the border between Tolowa and Pskov. -- Pēteris Cedriņš 22:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I made another minor edit, and I hope it does not start a minor war... in my opinion, the use of "reannexed" with reference to the war and 1944 is misleading, since Latvia was occupied in 1940 (not making mention of the occupation but saying "reannexed" is confusing, since Latvia was occupied prior to the war -- that it was occupied by the Soviets, the Nazis, and then the Soviets again does not re-annexation make, since it was never formally de-annexed and did not regain its independence). The terms "Latvian minority" and "ethnic Russians" were unclear, too -- is a Russified Latvian an "ethnic Russian," and does "minority" refer to ethnicity? The Russians in Abrene were Latvian citizens, and unless somebody goes to the trouble of explaining what that means it is senseless to parse their ethnicity. I added some particulars (e.g., on the deportations) and clarified the fact that it was not the entire district but its eastern civil parishes that were annexed. -- Pēteris Cedriņš 23:53, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Ghirlandajo, I am reverting the page because you do not provide sufficient justification for your very questionable changes, which are obviously not neutral POV (e.g., you changed "annexation" to "liberation," "russified" to "delatvianized," etc.). That terrible things happened all over the USSR is no reason to remove specific information on how the region was ethnically cleansed and its original inhabitants (of whatever ethnicity) in large part replaced by others. -- Pēteris Cedriņš 01:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
sveiki! I supplied some edit summaries with my corrections. Basically, the problem is that the article is one-sided towards the Latvian POV on the dispute. It is not your fault since you base your writings on the Latvian sources. I will ask some Russian editors that I know to have knowledge of the subject to look at it. I corrected only what seemed obvious to me. See my summaries for the reasons. Regards, -- Irpen 16:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
There is no doubt that it was annexation. I did not insert "liberation" and have no intention to do it. My problem, for example, is with using "return to Latvia", because every piece of land in Europe can be transferred to a number of countries and this could be called "return". Under this logic, Kiev or Smolensk could be "returned" to Poland, Warsaw could be "returned" to Russia, Gdansk to Germany and Bretagne to the UK. Similarly, talking about the lack of plebiscite, is like talking about the lack of multiparty democracy. It is a tautology to raise this in every USSR-reraled article. Stuff like "can't visit graves" looked strange in your version because it is not clear what exactly the problem is as I explained in the edit summary. I only corrected the obvious things and it will take a more knowledgeable editor to do more. Please, no flames. -- Irpen 17:13, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
OK, the graves issue looks fine with me now. Legality from the International Law viewpoint may be covered and I have no problem with that. But basing an entire issue on the Treaty of Riga is a POV. The Helsinki accords come into play when talking about territorial demands of one country to another. Also, AFAIK, Latvia, when joining NATO had to officially rescind any territorial claims it could have to its neighbors.
In a similar fashion, the fact the transfer was made through a Presidium decision instead of the Supreme Soviet's one is relevant. However, the plebiscite is an anachronism when talking about the Soviet Union in that time. By this logic you could mention a lack of plebiscite every time when a new republic leader was appointed from Moscow. Lack of democracy in the Soviet Union belongs to the History of the USSR series. Similarly, no one is bringing the issue of Nazi collaboration in Latvia into this article. This simply does not belong to this article. -- Irpen 18:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Irpen, but my sentence said "surveys show," and that is what surveys show. Besides, your sentence was ungrammatical. --
Pēteris Cedriņš 01:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I did not say anything about pleasant and unpleasant. And I do not object to the mention of the international law's position. My objection is specifically against the word "returned" to Latvia. It's usage adds nothing but a POV. It may rightfully belong to Latvia under the international law. It may belong to Russia too depending of how we interpret these laws and what we make a starting point to consider it fair borders. You are correct that annexation is illegal and there is no need to balance this statement. However, "Return to Latvia" has a meaning which is broader than the legal one. In reality, attaching this area to any of the two countries was and would be a "return" because the History didn't start in 1920. Therefore, I object to using the word "return". I don't care if Latvians were asked in the survey "do you believe the area will return to Latvia?", or "do you believe the area will belong to Latvia?". This is up to those who wrote the survey question. I am sure that Latvians would answer identically to these two questions. However, the word "return" in the text makes a judgement. Latvians may very well feel that the territory is "lost" while Russian may believe that the territory was "returned" as well as the name of the town. Those who chose how to formulate these questions had their judgement and formulated the question accordingly. We, at Wikipedia, cannot make such judgement and should you neutral phrasing. "Belong" or "be part of" is, therefore, more appropriate. Finally, I request you to discuss things in a more collegiate manner. I haven't given you any reason not to. -- Irpen 03:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with your de facto - de jure approach. It belongs to Latvia de jure only if 1920 Riga is taken as the sole basis to resolve the legal dispute. International law is by far less clear cut than criminal laws or country's conrtituions and also, there is no authority, like the Supreme Court or Constitutional court (Hague has a narrow authority and no enforecement mechanism, UN Security Counsil is anything but a court-like structure). Therefore, your "would ever belong de-facto", which implies that it does belong de-jure should be modified. We either say that it belongs de-jure by Riga, but other interpreations are possible and add Helsinki, as well as the fact the dissolution of the USSR has occured by that time's administrative borders. You could also add the prolonged discussion whether Latvia was actually ever part of the USSR because, on one hand it was occupied, on the other hand it was as much a souvereign republic as the founding republics like Ukraine and Belarus. This discussion would get long and only to justify your "de jure" word. There is no need for these complications. The discussion of complex questions, especially the controversial ones, should be confined within narrow articles. Here, it suffices to say that the region, as well as an entire Latvia was occupied, and that it was transferred from one republic to another.
As for the survey, if you insist on quoting it with the word "return", please add to it that the area is considered "returned" or "to be returned" by both sides for this and that reason. Again, this would necessiate a lengthy discussion which will not add anything to the reader's understanding of the article. -- Irpen 18:31, 29 November 2005 (UTC) -- Irpen 18:31, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to kindly ask some users to cease making pointless, ill willed edits, while citing ludicrous grounds.
That Baltic States were occupied by and illegally annexed into USSR is a well known historical fact, mentioned in numerous sources. I'll name two here:
- "The Encyclopedia of World History. 2001." available at online reference site www.bartleby.com
"Ultimatums of June 15, 16, 1940, charged hostile activities; Russia had occupied the Baltics militarily and had arranged for pro-Soviet administrations to request admittance to the Soviet Union." The Baltic States a. Overview
- "Encyclopedia BRITANNICA Online" has a section on the soviet Occupation under History of Baltic States The establishment of independence and the 20th century > Soviet occupation
That some users do not wish to acknowledge certain historical facts, or do not like them mentioned, does not constitute sufficient grounds for calling them POV and removing them.
Likewise, an explanation regarding the de iure/de facto "doubts" was given. Simply put, the title to Abrene district has never legally (pursuant to agreement between both parties) passed from Latvia to Soviet Union or Russia. Thus it de iure still belongs to Latvia while Russia exercises de facto control over it.
The facts regarding collectivisation are mentioned, for instance, by Dominiks Kaupuzs in his letter to Secretary of VKP(b) Malenkov (available at Latvian State Archives, archival reference LVA SPDN, 101.f., 9.apr., 98.l, 124-125.lp), article in Latvian available here.
I'm reverting some of the changes made to this article today, and respectfully ask once again - please cease making pointless edits while stating dubious or plainly ludicrous reasons for doing so.
Thank you! user:Doc15071969
Peteris, when you say "part of Latvia, administered by Russia" or "de jure Latvian, de facto Russian" you could only mean that the Riga treaty is the ultimate truth. This is not the only factor to decide on the issue. There is a clear administrative Soviet border and the acts of the dissolution where based on these borders. There is also an act of transfer, there is Helsinki too. Besides, there is a RU empire administrative subdivisions and who knows what else.
You may try to impeach an act of transfer based on the fact that it was adopted by Presidium and not by the Supreme soviet. You may also try impeach an entire Soviet period based on the fact that the occupation was illegal, but as I said the international law is not clear-cut. When there is a real-life legal dispute, we go to a court who would solve it. Here, there is no court and yours, mine or any scholars opinion has no authority to decide on it, although I agree that scholar's opinion may be presented.
Russia didn't annex the district. The Soviet Union annexed Latvia. The internal border redrawing afterwards is not an annexation. Russia didn't exist as an international etnity at that time. I am fine when you add background info. But its not OK to use POV terms that imply something disputable as if it isn't. You can preset this info without using "return" or "de jure". This is not, as you put it, an attempt to substitute occupation by liberation in order to settle later for "control". The terms you used were objected to because they were POV.
And finally, Russification does belong to the History of Latvia. It does not belong, however, to the article about every Latvian city. For an example of how not two write articles check the third paragraph of the Kamianets-Podilskyi#History section where the 20th century history of Ukraine is attempted to be told in 2 sentences. Complex issues have to be presented in context. Therefore, collectivization is a great topic for the article but not a theme to punch every time anyone has a grudge towards Moscow. -- Irpen
Peter, I make no comment regarding everything else, but I object to using the term "restoration", "return" etc in respect to Pytalovo/Abrene district. I explained it above in details. Thank you. -- Irpen 15:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
The only one consistently and obnoxiously introducing your obviously biased POV, by trying to delete or substitute for speculations facts not to your liking, are you, dear Ghirlandajo. Non-recognition policy whereby most Western democracies adhered to international obligations dating back already to Kellogg-Briand pact and adopted by the International Law Association, in 1934., Budapest Articles of Interpretation to that pact, and refused to recognize as acquired
de iure Soviet territorial acquisitions made pursuant to Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, is a widely known and well documented fact of history. Learn to deal somehow with facts not to your liking, get at least a basic understanding of the issue—starting, say, from looking for "non recognition Baltic" on google,—and, most importantly, please cease making pointless, unwarranted edits :)
From « Budapest Articles of Interpretation» to Kellogg-Briand pact:
«“(2) A signatory State which threatens to resort to armed force for the solution of an international dispute of conflict is guilty of a violation of the Pact.
(..)
“(5) The signatory States are not entitled to recognize as acquired de jure any territorial or other advantages acquired de facto by means of a violation of the Pact.
“(6) A violating State is liable to pay compensation for all damage caused by a violation of the Pact to any signatory State or to its nationals.» -- Doc15071969 14:36, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest that this discussion would go better if we eliminated any "position" where we simply repeat the stated position of either of the current governments (including Putin's donkey ears), and just dealt with the facts. If we want to talk about "historical" inhabitants of an area, how far back do we want to go? There were the Finno-Ugrian tribe before the Balts... there were the Balts all over what is now western Russia before the Russians--Volga is a Baltic, not Russian, word. Much closer to recent times, and to the point in question, the Soviet Union's own documents, unearthed in Russian archives, discuss the Abrene region refering to it as being Latvian and refering to all the place names by their Latvian names. Given the choice between Soviet documents in Russian archives and PR statements by the Russian foreign ministry (or Putin's donkey ears), I would believe the documents first. (And a position that whatever is going on does not apply to Russia because whatever was done was done by the Soviet Union is specious at best. The territory was annexed into the Russian SSR, not some independent Soviet protectorate. Nor has Russia done anything to distance herself from her Soviet past--quite the contrary, but that's another discussion.) Peters 20:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Would it be possible to have a map made of the territories that were lost to the Baltic States from the national borders set out in the 1920 treaties? This would really help in a visual sense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.246.4.30 ( talk • contribs).
Just to be clear, was the district divided by the Soviets along the Viļaka ridge? Did the ridge become the border? It's not clear from the article. Indisciplined ( talk) 19:14, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
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