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Other than brief or contorted mentions, I can't find that argument in this article, nor in "abortion". It's usually one of the first things that comes up in oral discussion. Korky Day ( talk) 22:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is that bit by me that Tznkai deleted:
Others argue that we must admit that drawing a line between cells that have a "right" to life and those that do not is purely political, since neither biology nor religion provides a widely accepted dividing line between one generation and the overlapping next generation. Some major religions, including Catholics grant a "right to life", if effect, for pre-conception human cells by restricting contraception, as in the satirical song by Monty Python " Every Sperm Is Sacred". Korky Day ( talk) 21:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I have long felt that there are simply too many links. More importantly, the majority seem to apply better to other pages. I intend to move the 16 links under both Pro-Choice and Pro-Life to their respective pages unless someone has a compelling reason not to.-- Red Baron ( talk) 00:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice that Guttmacher says, "Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds. The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions." I wonder if this is comparing apples to oranges? Could it be that restrictions do normally reduce abortion's incidence, but the relative lack of contraceptives in Africa overcomes that effect? The source is http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html#1 Aldrich Hanssen ( talk) 03:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
twice ive added these arguments in and twice they have been deleting with no specfic evidence provided as to why. i'm going to list these arguments here for discussion and modification in preparation for them to be entered on the main page. im happy to make them completely neutral, to add in counter arguments, remove any subjective/biased words, etc. if i dont receive any feedback, i will place them on the main page as they are: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Utopial ( talk • contribs)
An argument exists that with uncertainty about when life begins (human being or human person), having an abortion is equivalent to consciously taking the risk of killing another, i.e. manslaughter. For example, Ronald Reagan stated in a paper he co-authored "if you don't know whether a body is alive or dead, you would never bury it." ISBN 0964112531
An argument exists that abortion is a form of discrimination comparable to eugenics, where the right to live is based on a value determined by others. ISBN 0964112531
As one of those who removed the above material, I suppose I ought to comment. Both sections are, I think, at odds with the structure of the rest of the article, which has been carefully constructed to present both sides of the debate neutrally; in constrast, I think this material seeks to engage in, rather than describe, the debate. I'm also concerned that the sole source for this material is a book by Ronald Reagan, of all people. If these arguments are really notable, they should have been documented by, well, more scholarly sources. And then, of course, there are the weasels. SHEFFIELDSTEEL TALK 15:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
(1) a weasel is a comment like 'Ronald Reagan, of all people.' i deliberately opened the arguments with the phrase 'Some argue' because almost all of the other arguments open in an identical manner. Otherwise I would've used the phrase 'one argument is....' Perhaps the other arguments also need to be deleted?
solution: weasels are gone.
(2) the debate is not going to be evenly balanced in each area because:
1. the argument areas can be interrelated
2. typically pro-choice and pro-life people come from different perspectives and focus on arguments from certain areas.
as a whole, however, the debate should end up balanced.
i said im happy for people to add in counter arguments if they can come up with any. if ppl were unable to come up with counterarguments, this shouldn't serve as a reason to exclude these arguments.
solution: neutral framing - give me counter arguments and ill put them in. if no counterarguments are provided, these 2 arguments will go into the article as they are.
(3) the quality of reagan as a source relative to other authors is subjective and thus not a viable reason for excluding these arguments (is quality important if the view if widely held?). the co-authors were:
William P. Clark (justice of the California Supreme Court before political career)
Wanda Franz [1] Professor of Child Development and Family Studies at West Virginia University in Morgantown, West Virginia; B.A. in Anthropology from the University of Washington (1965), M.S. in Family Resources from West Virginia University, (1970); Ph.D. in Developmental Psychology from West Virginia University (1974).
Brian P. Johnston - author of 'Death as a Salesman: What's Wrong With Assisted Suicide' and former California Commissioner on Aging
solution: coauthors are credible, irrespective of mentioned author.
--
Utopial (
talk) 12:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
With no feedback on counter arguments for 3 days, I've added the slightly modified paragraphs into the main article. Do not delete these argument topics. These two argument topics been through the due diligence phase. People have had sufficient time to discuss these arguments on this page and there are no outstanding issues. If you have a problem with these two argument topics, please discuss here on the talk page. If you have any counter arguments, please add them to the article ensuring that they meet this article's wiki standards.
-- Utopial ( talk) 12:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
On the three points of debate, i believe that i resolved two of them (weasels and reference quality) and I left the third option open for people to add in. Like you found yourself, I was unable to find a counter argument that directly opposed those two arguments (i assume that all counter arguments would be indirect through personhood, depravity, etc). If neutral framing is not possible in a direct manner, what is the next step? Surely information shouldn't be excluded because no direct counter argument is available. Removing that information would make the article less valuable. -- Utopial ( talk) 23:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I've adjusted the reference. Thanks for pointing out that citing standard. As i mentioned, virtually all of the points made in the article begin with 'some argue' (i changed mine to the non-weasel 'an argument exists'). If this is a problem, the entire article needs cleaning. Part of the problem is that it is unlikely that these arguments can be completely isolated to one demographic. That's the purpose of including an example of a person who holds that view. Wrt to balance, what if no direct counter arguments can be found or exist? There are several arguments already in the article that don't have a corresponding counter argument. Isn't it more important to have comprehensiveness and overall balance with the main arugments of both sides completely covered? -- Utopial ( talk) 22:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
A lot of my article writing time is focused on the main abortion page but it seems to have quieted down, and frankly, the abortion debate article is a mess. There are a lot of annoying weasel words in addition a general sense of disorganization.
Before we get started editing, and before I specifically get started messing with this page wholesale, I thought it'd be useful that we could identify specific problems with the article itself, and answer some questions.-- Tznkai ( talk) 22:42, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
What exactly is this article. Are we describing the conflict between pro-life and pro-choice movements? Is this just a collection of issues being raised in the debate? Do we want this to act as a top level article to all of the various subparts of abortion debate article group? What encyclopedic purpose can this article serve?
I thought it'd be nice if we start collating arguments and people to source them too.
We've had that worldwide view tag since time immemorial. Time to get rid of it.
I propose this entire section be removed for cleanup. There are no WP:RS to support any argument that there is a correlation between the issues of "Separation of Church and State" and the abortion debate, and secondly, doesn't present a world-view, but rather a xenocentric American view. I'm removing it in a couple of days if there are no responses here. Also, going to ask a few editors who already contributed to the article. Paranormal Skeptic ( talk) 15:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
As with any good controversial issue page on Wikipedia, this one is full of vague statements and half assertions. I counted about 10 times where I saw the phrasing "some argue" ( Wikipedia:Weasel words#Examples), or something akin to it. We ought by all means to avoid this. Magog the Ogre ( talk) 15:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
How the system works in my eyes:
Hence, my removal of several external links with little knowledge of the article is a good thing. It takes an external view to actually get down to do things rather than vaguely talk about them. Please now rebuild this to a suitable section if necessary. Greggers ( t • c) 20:56, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I inserted the "including abstention from sexual intercourse" to the sentence "Finally, some argue that as gametes have a similar potential to the fetus, the argument would entail that contraception—including abstention from sexual intercourse—is as wrong as the killing of an adult human being—a conclusion that is similarly taken to be counterintuitive or unacceptable." The Catholic Church and others argue that contraception by any other means than fertility awareness and abstention is wrong. The word "contraception" is ambiguous enough that one might say, "of course is as wrong as contraception. Contraception is wrong." The addition of "including abstention from sexual intercourse" shows that even a means of contraception approved of by such firmly pro-life groups as the Catholic Church produces a counterintuitive result by this argument. Abstention solely for the sake of preventing pregnancy is a form of birth control, in fact, the only form that is one hundred percent effective. The Catholic Church and other groups advocate abstention as the only moral way to prevent birth. Therefore not all contraception is morally unacceptable. I feel the need to explain this because my addition has twice been reverted as superfluous or merely an attempt to add humor to the debate. I write from the perspective of a Catholic to clarify something that seemed to me unclear because of the potential for equivocation in the word "contraception." If an argument is unacceptable, then it is unacceptable even if it disproves one's own belief in the matter. Alligator gar ( talk) 22:53, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Reductio ad absurdum is a legitimate test of the validity of an argument. It isn't original research; it's a rhetorical device. My change is intended to demonstrate the illegitimacy of the Deprivation argument to people who believe that all contraception is wrong. The use of "contraception" is flawed because there is not a complete consensus that contraception in any form is right. Even natural methods of contraception are explicitly proscribed by Church teaching.
Note that first sentence: There must be well-grounded reasons for spacing births, not eliminating all possibility of birth. Use of natural family planning is only legitimate when used to delay, not prevent, conception. Another commentator expresses this quite bluntly:
According to this view, if one is married, one is not permitted to frustrate the natural order whereby sexual intercourse at all times carries the possibility of pregnancy [4]]
Further, if one is married, complete abstention is a violation of God's law that marriage must permit sexual fecundity. The encyclical specifically states this under the rubric "Married Love." However, married couples may under certain circumstances abstain from sex during fertile periods, not during infertile periods. Complete abstention from sex in marriage is permitted only if there is a compelling reason that only total abstention, forever, must be used.
The phrasing "abstention from sexual intercourse" is necessary, or the argument is not disproved in all cases. Catholic doctrine holds that all forms of contraception are illicit; even the use of abstention in marriage is prohibited. If the couple have serious reason, they may use abstention specifically during fertile periods to space births, not utterly to eliminate the possibility of conception. In all other cases, they may not abstain from sex. To a devout Catholic, there is no argument; all contraception is wrong. Even natural family planning must not be used as contraception.
To disprove the Deprivation argument, one must argue that it brings a result that is fallacious in all cases. According to the Church, in all cases, any method of contraception is illicit. This completely takes the starch out of the argument as it presently stands. Abstention, however, though it may be used as a contraceptive, is not illicit in all cases. Celibacy is required of Catholic clergy and religious. To say that abstention is wrong in all cases is indeed a fallacy, whereas to say contraception is wrong is not a fallacy. I'm not producing original research; I'm eliminating an outright error.
As Dynaflow rightly points out, the phrasing of the sentence should be changed. I recommend the following: "It is possible by this argument to assert that abstention from sexual intercourse is as wrong as murdering an adult human being."
I'm not splitting hairs; as the sentence stands is not a valid logical refutation according to Catholic beliefs. One may reasonably document that some people think all contraception, even in the form of abstention, is wrong because it goes against God's will as much as killing an innocent human being does. One either goes against God's will or one doesn't, extenuating circumstances notwithstanding. Our estimation of the seriousness of the disobedient act is not necessarily God's view on the subject, either. A literal interpretation of Genesis 3 shows that Adam and Eve earned themselves pain and death for merely eating a piece of fruit. Changing "contraception" to the abstinence wording I suggest actually does refute the Deprivation argument in accordance with the rules of logic.
Thanks everybody for caring enough to debate! Debating is fun.
68.43.157.192 ( talk) 17:58, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm not debating the truth or falsity of the topic abortion. I'm debating the appropriateness of a rhetorical device in response to Dynaflow's comments. The matter as it stands does not have a broad enough worldview. I so demonstrate by referring to the existence of people who would argue that abstinence is akin to murder because the two things are equally violations of God's will. My previous post was an effort to explain my reasons for the change, not to express a personal viewpoint on abortion. I use Catholicism as an example because its beliefs are well-documented and widespread. I don't give a holler about what wording you use, but I do believe that a change must be made. The present wording is not a legitimate refutation and should not be characterized as such.
Nor am I the first to use this particular reductio ad absurdam. The "abstinence is akin to murder." argument is raised at the following website: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGQb3iVhYJI [accessed 18 February at 8 a.m.] wherein that idea is expressed in a published parody and discussed in the subsequent published commentary, particularly by Unicuber ["If you don't have sex, then those eggs will not get fertilized and then a potential life will never happen!! You need to make sure that every egg in your body gets fertilized, every single time, in order to be sure that life happens as often as possible."]and Sicktoaster ["But an unfertilized egg is alive. A sperm is alive. And if they don't combine to form a fertilized egg they die. They both have human DNA, ergo they are human life so if you prevent them from combining you are killing human life."] These views relate directly to the gamete argument presented under the Deprivation heading. Regardless of what you may think of the commentators' credentials, it is decidedly an argument that has been published before, even if you've never heard of it. Furthermore, one needn't consider the credentials of the publishers to prove they have placed a parodic argument before the public eye, even if their opinion seems silly. It is published; that is sufficient.
Some other published instances of the "Abstinence is murder" reductio ad absurdam appear at
and
A form of the "abstinence is murder" argument also appears in
in the commentary, esp. the one headed "Trillions and Trillions of potential humans die each year!"
The "Abstinence is murder" argument is by no means unheard of, nor is it the isolated usage of one or two people. It is a widely published argument
Alligator gar ( talk) 19:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Gee whiz, forget I even mentioned it. I give up.
Alligator gar (
talk) 22:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
One of the most frequent arguments in the Abortion debate is the comparison with rape, incest and pedophilia ; there are many articles in the abortion series, but none of them seem to address this particular issue. Anyways, for both sides it all depends on whether Abortion is considred to be murder or not, and whether the murder of an unborn child is as bad as any other murder. For instance, the (Catholic) Church believes that abortion is the worst sin and is even worst than an average rape-and-murder, and so it cannot even be compared to rape and pedophilia. ADM ( talk) 02:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
As there are no references cited, who is being referred to in the phrase "some argue" in the following sentence? "Finally, some argue that as gametes have a similar potential to the fetus, the argument would entail that contraception or even choosing not to have sex is as wrong as the killing of an adult human being—a conclusion that is similarly taken to be counterintuitive or unacceptable." - who argues? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.217.86 ( talk) 16:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
The "Terminology" section mentions that calling a fetus a "baby" can be a POV-dependent thing. But there is a valid reason why only calling it a "fetus" is not necessarily a POV-dependent thing. This has to do with the ancient adage, "Don't count your chickens before they hatch." It is well known that some eggs don't hatch. Similarly, we shouldn't count babies before they are born because some are born dead not alive, and therefore a too-early count would be incorrect. Meanwhile, counting the unborn using the term "fetus" will always be mathematically correct. This fact-of-counting is reflected in the U.S. Census (and likely of any typical census undertaken by other nations), which never has counted the unborn. http://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/ V ( talk) 16:21, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, regarding another special word, "person", it is an interesting fact (though not of international importance) that the U.S. Constitution explicitly requires that all "persons" be counted every ten years, and that the writers of that Constitution were also in charge of specifying which questions were asked in the nation's first Census of 1790. However, because the unborn were not counted, it logically follows that the Founding Fathers did not consider them to be "persons". (I see this is relevant to the "Personhood" section below, but because of the highly relevant data in the above paragraph, I put this here.) V ( talk) 16:16, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Under the Privacy section, I added the sentence "The issue of privacy is a common argument presented by pro-choice advocates." This edit was then reverted by User:Dawn Bard for the reason "vague and redundant." I believe my edit should be kept.-- Minimidgy ( talk) 07:08, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
The argument that the pro-life presents is that "an unborn child is and innocent human being with the right to life." We should use the language the pro-life arguments use. Changing this to "fetus" is presenting POV.-- Minimidgy ( talk) 00:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Andrew, shouldn't we qualify "fetus" as POV then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minimidgy ( talk • contribs) 01:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict - I was writing at the same time as Utopial)
(Un-indent) If one were to walk into a hosptital, or a research lab; how many times would one hear pre-birth {fill in species} compared to fetus, zygote, or emrbyo. Let's look at scholarly articles:
* http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22pre-birth+human%22&hl=en&lr=&btnG=Search - 16 hits * http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=embryo&btnG=Search - 1.24 million hits * http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=zygote&btnG=Search - 74,100 hits * http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=fetus&btnG=Search - 673,000 hits
Still considered universal? Hardly. Paranormal Skeptic ( talk) 14:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
However, in seeking consensus I believe the best term is 'the unborn'. Whilst this doesn't specify the species (like foetus/embryo), an assumption can be made that the reader will understand the discussion is about the human species (else the term 'the unborn human' can be used). There are numerous reasons why this term is the best option: (1) Medically accurate with scholarly sources (20100). (2) avoids the framing debate entirely by not taking sides (which embryo/foetus doesn't and thus has less consensus support) (3) practical - simple, comprehensive and concise
The scientific terms are the ones that are accepted when used in any lab or hospital setting, with zero confusion. And we are not looking for the term "embryo or fetus". Each can stand on their own. This is getting to the point where you are merely looking at this as a battleground or to make a point. Paranormal Skeptic ( talk) 01:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Unindenting may be appropriate because I'm going to talk about some old stuff in a new way. I will start by not objecting to the phrase "unborn human" as an alternative to "fetus", but I will also state a preference for using both terms instead of either exclusively (it can get boring to use just one specific description all the time; that's why synonyms exist generically). Next, I will strenuously object to using the phrase "unborn human being" at all. This reason has to do with "common usage" in the English language. Clarifying, consider a pregnant dog and a fetus it carries: We could certainly call that fetus an "unborn dog", but has anyone ever called even an adult dog a "dog being"??? In common usage of English, there is an unstated/unconscious association of the word "being" with the phrase "intelligent being", and no dog outside of fiction has ever exhibited enough intelligence to have earned the label "dog being". Now back to humans, and particularly to brain-dead humans on extreme medical life-support. Why do the Courts allow such humans to be unplugged? Because they are no longer "human beings" in the sense of being intelligent beings! Brain-death has made those humans into nothing more than living animal bodies. Finally, we return to an unborn human, which we can legitimately call a fetus, but which nobody has ever called a "fetus being". It is not an intelligent being; even a full-term/late-term fetus provably has no more intelligence than an adult dog; it is a living animal body that also has an animal-level mind. So, while a human fetus can correctly be called an unborn human, it would not be correct at all to call it an unborn human being (it would be POV-specific to do that). V ( talk) 17:11, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
When arguments related to the abortion debate begin with a reference to the ultimate position they take, e.g. 'Pro-life supporters argue', in many cases this can stimulate a preconceived acceptance/rejection of the argument before the actual argument is read. I believe it would be sensible to do the following: - remove references to 'pro-choice/life' within the abortion debate section - Where possible, conclude with the position an argument ultimately takes, rather than start with it, e.g. 'Therefore, they argue that abortion is permissible after xxx' Utopial ( talk) 2 June 2009
I believe that a more generic and meaningful title should be used, such as 'Subordinate Rights', particularly as analogies not involving the body can be used for comparison and the underlying theme in this discussion relates to the relative value of different rights. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Utopial ( talk • contribs) 01:47, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
<--(undent)I have provided my comments, and as the only one who wants to change the consensus version, the burden of providing evidence to justify a change is on you. You have not convinced me, but then, I haven't seen what exactly you are proposing yet. Dawn Bard ( talk) 04:11, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Since it appears with the editors here, we are at an impasse. Would a Request for Comment be helpful in this case? Paranormal Skeptic ( talk) 01:37, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Due to an impass on subject matter here, question is which is more neutral in tone, in respect to the aricle: fetus, embryo, or the unborn Paranormal Skeptic ( talk) 04:51, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
:*Who would ask such a question? Obviously we are talking about an unborn human being. --
Andrew Kelly (
talk) 05:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::*"Unborn" is just as accurate. And, seeing as abortion is murder, being neutral is simply not important. Any attempt to define abortion as anything but murder or to define the unborn children as anything but unborn children is an attempt to whitewash the sin of abortion. --
Andrew Kelly (
talk) 06:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::::*The fact that abortion is murder is not an opinion or a personal view. It is biblical fact. As I said above, any attempt to put abortion in a positive or neutral light is whitewash, even when it is for the sake of "being neutral." And, on a side note, it is not possible to be neutral. Everyone believes something and their beliefs manifest themselves in everything that they do. The writers of Wikipedia cannot just leave their beliefs at the door when they come to write. That is why so much of Wikipedia is written from an atheistic point of view, because many of the writers of Wikipedia are atheists. Total neutrality is impossible. --
Andrew Kelly (
talk) 06:41, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Andrew, "abortion is murder" is not a fact, because there is debate as to whether unborn babies are human persons. As for biblical fact, the Bible may be fact to you, but that is your belief. Unfortunately, the writers of Wikipedia must leave their beliefs at the door, because this is a neutral encyclopedia for reference purposes and not an outlet for your beliefs. If you want to write about your own beliefs you can write your own blog or website or join a pro-life forum but in Wikipedia we must address both sides of all controversies, and not assume any controversial position is a "fact". -Unsigned —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
12.157.93.130 (
talk) 18:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Other than brief or contorted mentions, I can't find that argument in this article, nor in "abortion". It's usually one of the first things that comes up in oral discussion. Korky Day ( talk) 22:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is that bit by me that Tznkai deleted:
Others argue that we must admit that drawing a line between cells that have a "right" to life and those that do not is purely political, since neither biology nor religion provides a widely accepted dividing line between one generation and the overlapping next generation. Some major religions, including Catholics grant a "right to life", if effect, for pre-conception human cells by restricting contraception, as in the satirical song by Monty Python " Every Sperm Is Sacred". Korky Day ( talk) 21:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I have long felt that there are simply too many links. More importantly, the majority seem to apply better to other pages. I intend to move the 16 links under both Pro-Choice and Pro-Life to their respective pages unless someone has a compelling reason not to.-- Red Baron ( talk) 00:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice that Guttmacher says, "Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds. The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions." I wonder if this is comparing apples to oranges? Could it be that restrictions do normally reduce abortion's incidence, but the relative lack of contraceptives in Africa overcomes that effect? The source is http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html#1 Aldrich Hanssen ( talk) 03:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
twice ive added these arguments in and twice they have been deleting with no specfic evidence provided as to why. i'm going to list these arguments here for discussion and modification in preparation for them to be entered on the main page. im happy to make them completely neutral, to add in counter arguments, remove any subjective/biased words, etc. if i dont receive any feedback, i will place them on the main page as they are: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Utopial ( talk • contribs)
An argument exists that with uncertainty about when life begins (human being or human person), having an abortion is equivalent to consciously taking the risk of killing another, i.e. manslaughter. For example, Ronald Reagan stated in a paper he co-authored "if you don't know whether a body is alive or dead, you would never bury it." ISBN 0964112531
An argument exists that abortion is a form of discrimination comparable to eugenics, where the right to live is based on a value determined by others. ISBN 0964112531
As one of those who removed the above material, I suppose I ought to comment. Both sections are, I think, at odds with the structure of the rest of the article, which has been carefully constructed to present both sides of the debate neutrally; in constrast, I think this material seeks to engage in, rather than describe, the debate. I'm also concerned that the sole source for this material is a book by Ronald Reagan, of all people. If these arguments are really notable, they should have been documented by, well, more scholarly sources. And then, of course, there are the weasels. SHEFFIELDSTEEL TALK 15:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
(1) a weasel is a comment like 'Ronald Reagan, of all people.' i deliberately opened the arguments with the phrase 'Some argue' because almost all of the other arguments open in an identical manner. Otherwise I would've used the phrase 'one argument is....' Perhaps the other arguments also need to be deleted?
solution: weasels are gone.
(2) the debate is not going to be evenly balanced in each area because:
1. the argument areas can be interrelated
2. typically pro-choice and pro-life people come from different perspectives and focus on arguments from certain areas.
as a whole, however, the debate should end up balanced.
i said im happy for people to add in counter arguments if they can come up with any. if ppl were unable to come up with counterarguments, this shouldn't serve as a reason to exclude these arguments.
solution: neutral framing - give me counter arguments and ill put them in. if no counterarguments are provided, these 2 arguments will go into the article as they are.
(3) the quality of reagan as a source relative to other authors is subjective and thus not a viable reason for excluding these arguments (is quality important if the view if widely held?). the co-authors were:
William P. Clark (justice of the California Supreme Court before political career)
Wanda Franz [1] Professor of Child Development and Family Studies at West Virginia University in Morgantown, West Virginia; B.A. in Anthropology from the University of Washington (1965), M.S. in Family Resources from West Virginia University, (1970); Ph.D. in Developmental Psychology from West Virginia University (1974).
Brian P. Johnston - author of 'Death as a Salesman: What's Wrong With Assisted Suicide' and former California Commissioner on Aging
solution: coauthors are credible, irrespective of mentioned author.
--
Utopial (
talk) 12:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
With no feedback on counter arguments for 3 days, I've added the slightly modified paragraphs into the main article. Do not delete these argument topics. These two argument topics been through the due diligence phase. People have had sufficient time to discuss these arguments on this page and there are no outstanding issues. If you have a problem with these two argument topics, please discuss here on the talk page. If you have any counter arguments, please add them to the article ensuring that they meet this article's wiki standards.
-- Utopial ( talk) 12:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
On the three points of debate, i believe that i resolved two of them (weasels and reference quality) and I left the third option open for people to add in. Like you found yourself, I was unable to find a counter argument that directly opposed those two arguments (i assume that all counter arguments would be indirect through personhood, depravity, etc). If neutral framing is not possible in a direct manner, what is the next step? Surely information shouldn't be excluded because no direct counter argument is available. Removing that information would make the article less valuable. -- Utopial ( talk) 23:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I've adjusted the reference. Thanks for pointing out that citing standard. As i mentioned, virtually all of the points made in the article begin with 'some argue' (i changed mine to the non-weasel 'an argument exists'). If this is a problem, the entire article needs cleaning. Part of the problem is that it is unlikely that these arguments can be completely isolated to one demographic. That's the purpose of including an example of a person who holds that view. Wrt to balance, what if no direct counter arguments can be found or exist? There are several arguments already in the article that don't have a corresponding counter argument. Isn't it more important to have comprehensiveness and overall balance with the main arugments of both sides completely covered? -- Utopial ( talk) 22:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
A lot of my article writing time is focused on the main abortion page but it seems to have quieted down, and frankly, the abortion debate article is a mess. There are a lot of annoying weasel words in addition a general sense of disorganization.
Before we get started editing, and before I specifically get started messing with this page wholesale, I thought it'd be useful that we could identify specific problems with the article itself, and answer some questions.-- Tznkai ( talk) 22:42, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
What exactly is this article. Are we describing the conflict between pro-life and pro-choice movements? Is this just a collection of issues being raised in the debate? Do we want this to act as a top level article to all of the various subparts of abortion debate article group? What encyclopedic purpose can this article serve?
I thought it'd be nice if we start collating arguments and people to source them too.
We've had that worldwide view tag since time immemorial. Time to get rid of it.
I propose this entire section be removed for cleanup. There are no WP:RS to support any argument that there is a correlation between the issues of "Separation of Church and State" and the abortion debate, and secondly, doesn't present a world-view, but rather a xenocentric American view. I'm removing it in a couple of days if there are no responses here. Also, going to ask a few editors who already contributed to the article. Paranormal Skeptic ( talk) 15:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
As with any good controversial issue page on Wikipedia, this one is full of vague statements and half assertions. I counted about 10 times where I saw the phrasing "some argue" ( Wikipedia:Weasel words#Examples), or something akin to it. We ought by all means to avoid this. Magog the Ogre ( talk) 15:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
How the system works in my eyes:
Hence, my removal of several external links with little knowledge of the article is a good thing. It takes an external view to actually get down to do things rather than vaguely talk about them. Please now rebuild this to a suitable section if necessary. Greggers ( t • c) 20:56, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I inserted the "including abstention from sexual intercourse" to the sentence "Finally, some argue that as gametes have a similar potential to the fetus, the argument would entail that contraception—including abstention from sexual intercourse—is as wrong as the killing of an adult human being—a conclusion that is similarly taken to be counterintuitive or unacceptable." The Catholic Church and others argue that contraception by any other means than fertility awareness and abstention is wrong. The word "contraception" is ambiguous enough that one might say, "of course is as wrong as contraception. Contraception is wrong." The addition of "including abstention from sexual intercourse" shows that even a means of contraception approved of by such firmly pro-life groups as the Catholic Church produces a counterintuitive result by this argument. Abstention solely for the sake of preventing pregnancy is a form of birth control, in fact, the only form that is one hundred percent effective. The Catholic Church and other groups advocate abstention as the only moral way to prevent birth. Therefore not all contraception is morally unacceptable. I feel the need to explain this because my addition has twice been reverted as superfluous or merely an attempt to add humor to the debate. I write from the perspective of a Catholic to clarify something that seemed to me unclear because of the potential for equivocation in the word "contraception." If an argument is unacceptable, then it is unacceptable even if it disproves one's own belief in the matter. Alligator gar ( talk) 22:53, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Reductio ad absurdum is a legitimate test of the validity of an argument. It isn't original research; it's a rhetorical device. My change is intended to demonstrate the illegitimacy of the Deprivation argument to people who believe that all contraception is wrong. The use of "contraception" is flawed because there is not a complete consensus that contraception in any form is right. Even natural methods of contraception are explicitly proscribed by Church teaching.
Note that first sentence: There must be well-grounded reasons for spacing births, not eliminating all possibility of birth. Use of natural family planning is only legitimate when used to delay, not prevent, conception. Another commentator expresses this quite bluntly:
According to this view, if one is married, one is not permitted to frustrate the natural order whereby sexual intercourse at all times carries the possibility of pregnancy [4]]
Further, if one is married, complete abstention is a violation of God's law that marriage must permit sexual fecundity. The encyclical specifically states this under the rubric "Married Love." However, married couples may under certain circumstances abstain from sex during fertile periods, not during infertile periods. Complete abstention from sex in marriage is permitted only if there is a compelling reason that only total abstention, forever, must be used.
The phrasing "abstention from sexual intercourse" is necessary, or the argument is not disproved in all cases. Catholic doctrine holds that all forms of contraception are illicit; even the use of abstention in marriage is prohibited. If the couple have serious reason, they may use abstention specifically during fertile periods to space births, not utterly to eliminate the possibility of conception. In all other cases, they may not abstain from sex. To a devout Catholic, there is no argument; all contraception is wrong. Even natural family planning must not be used as contraception.
To disprove the Deprivation argument, one must argue that it brings a result that is fallacious in all cases. According to the Church, in all cases, any method of contraception is illicit. This completely takes the starch out of the argument as it presently stands. Abstention, however, though it may be used as a contraceptive, is not illicit in all cases. Celibacy is required of Catholic clergy and religious. To say that abstention is wrong in all cases is indeed a fallacy, whereas to say contraception is wrong is not a fallacy. I'm not producing original research; I'm eliminating an outright error.
As Dynaflow rightly points out, the phrasing of the sentence should be changed. I recommend the following: "It is possible by this argument to assert that abstention from sexual intercourse is as wrong as murdering an adult human being."
I'm not splitting hairs; as the sentence stands is not a valid logical refutation according to Catholic beliefs. One may reasonably document that some people think all contraception, even in the form of abstention, is wrong because it goes against God's will as much as killing an innocent human being does. One either goes against God's will or one doesn't, extenuating circumstances notwithstanding. Our estimation of the seriousness of the disobedient act is not necessarily God's view on the subject, either. A literal interpretation of Genesis 3 shows that Adam and Eve earned themselves pain and death for merely eating a piece of fruit. Changing "contraception" to the abstinence wording I suggest actually does refute the Deprivation argument in accordance with the rules of logic.
Thanks everybody for caring enough to debate! Debating is fun.
68.43.157.192 ( talk) 17:58, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm not debating the truth or falsity of the topic abortion. I'm debating the appropriateness of a rhetorical device in response to Dynaflow's comments. The matter as it stands does not have a broad enough worldview. I so demonstrate by referring to the existence of people who would argue that abstinence is akin to murder because the two things are equally violations of God's will. My previous post was an effort to explain my reasons for the change, not to express a personal viewpoint on abortion. I use Catholicism as an example because its beliefs are well-documented and widespread. I don't give a holler about what wording you use, but I do believe that a change must be made. The present wording is not a legitimate refutation and should not be characterized as such.
Nor am I the first to use this particular reductio ad absurdam. The "abstinence is akin to murder." argument is raised at the following website: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGQb3iVhYJI [accessed 18 February at 8 a.m.] wherein that idea is expressed in a published parody and discussed in the subsequent published commentary, particularly by Unicuber ["If you don't have sex, then those eggs will not get fertilized and then a potential life will never happen!! You need to make sure that every egg in your body gets fertilized, every single time, in order to be sure that life happens as often as possible."]and Sicktoaster ["But an unfertilized egg is alive. A sperm is alive. And if they don't combine to form a fertilized egg they die. They both have human DNA, ergo they are human life so if you prevent them from combining you are killing human life."] These views relate directly to the gamete argument presented under the Deprivation heading. Regardless of what you may think of the commentators' credentials, it is decidedly an argument that has been published before, even if you've never heard of it. Furthermore, one needn't consider the credentials of the publishers to prove they have placed a parodic argument before the public eye, even if their opinion seems silly. It is published; that is sufficient.
Some other published instances of the "Abstinence is murder" reductio ad absurdam appear at
and
A form of the "abstinence is murder" argument also appears in
in the commentary, esp. the one headed "Trillions and Trillions of potential humans die each year!"
The "Abstinence is murder" argument is by no means unheard of, nor is it the isolated usage of one or two people. It is a widely published argument
Alligator gar ( talk) 19:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Gee whiz, forget I even mentioned it. I give up.
Alligator gar (
talk) 22:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
One of the most frequent arguments in the Abortion debate is the comparison with rape, incest and pedophilia ; there are many articles in the abortion series, but none of them seem to address this particular issue. Anyways, for both sides it all depends on whether Abortion is considred to be murder or not, and whether the murder of an unborn child is as bad as any other murder. For instance, the (Catholic) Church believes that abortion is the worst sin and is even worst than an average rape-and-murder, and so it cannot even be compared to rape and pedophilia. ADM ( talk) 02:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
As there are no references cited, who is being referred to in the phrase "some argue" in the following sentence? "Finally, some argue that as gametes have a similar potential to the fetus, the argument would entail that contraception or even choosing not to have sex is as wrong as the killing of an adult human being—a conclusion that is similarly taken to be counterintuitive or unacceptable." - who argues? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.217.86 ( talk) 16:59, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
The "Terminology" section mentions that calling a fetus a "baby" can be a POV-dependent thing. But there is a valid reason why only calling it a "fetus" is not necessarily a POV-dependent thing. This has to do with the ancient adage, "Don't count your chickens before they hatch." It is well known that some eggs don't hatch. Similarly, we shouldn't count babies before they are born because some are born dead not alive, and therefore a too-early count would be incorrect. Meanwhile, counting the unborn using the term "fetus" will always be mathematically correct. This fact-of-counting is reflected in the U.S. Census (and likely of any typical census undertaken by other nations), which never has counted the unborn. http://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/index_of_questions/ V ( talk) 16:21, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, regarding another special word, "person", it is an interesting fact (though not of international importance) that the U.S. Constitution explicitly requires that all "persons" be counted every ten years, and that the writers of that Constitution were also in charge of specifying which questions were asked in the nation's first Census of 1790. However, because the unborn were not counted, it logically follows that the Founding Fathers did not consider them to be "persons". (I see this is relevant to the "Personhood" section below, but because of the highly relevant data in the above paragraph, I put this here.) V ( talk) 16:16, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Under the Privacy section, I added the sentence "The issue of privacy is a common argument presented by pro-choice advocates." This edit was then reverted by User:Dawn Bard for the reason "vague and redundant." I believe my edit should be kept.-- Minimidgy ( talk) 07:08, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
The argument that the pro-life presents is that "an unborn child is and innocent human being with the right to life." We should use the language the pro-life arguments use. Changing this to "fetus" is presenting POV.-- Minimidgy ( talk) 00:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Andrew, shouldn't we qualify "fetus" as POV then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minimidgy ( talk • contribs) 01:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict - I was writing at the same time as Utopial)
(Un-indent) If one were to walk into a hosptital, or a research lab; how many times would one hear pre-birth {fill in species} compared to fetus, zygote, or emrbyo. Let's look at scholarly articles:
* http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22pre-birth+human%22&hl=en&lr=&btnG=Search - 16 hits * http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=embryo&btnG=Search - 1.24 million hits * http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=zygote&btnG=Search - 74,100 hits * http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=fetus&btnG=Search - 673,000 hits
Still considered universal? Hardly. Paranormal Skeptic ( talk) 14:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
However, in seeking consensus I believe the best term is 'the unborn'. Whilst this doesn't specify the species (like foetus/embryo), an assumption can be made that the reader will understand the discussion is about the human species (else the term 'the unborn human' can be used). There are numerous reasons why this term is the best option: (1) Medically accurate with scholarly sources (20100). (2) avoids the framing debate entirely by not taking sides (which embryo/foetus doesn't and thus has less consensus support) (3) practical - simple, comprehensive and concise
The scientific terms are the ones that are accepted when used in any lab or hospital setting, with zero confusion. And we are not looking for the term "embryo or fetus". Each can stand on their own. This is getting to the point where you are merely looking at this as a battleground or to make a point. Paranormal Skeptic ( talk) 01:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Unindenting may be appropriate because I'm going to talk about some old stuff in a new way. I will start by not objecting to the phrase "unborn human" as an alternative to "fetus", but I will also state a preference for using both terms instead of either exclusively (it can get boring to use just one specific description all the time; that's why synonyms exist generically). Next, I will strenuously object to using the phrase "unborn human being" at all. This reason has to do with "common usage" in the English language. Clarifying, consider a pregnant dog and a fetus it carries: We could certainly call that fetus an "unborn dog", but has anyone ever called even an adult dog a "dog being"??? In common usage of English, there is an unstated/unconscious association of the word "being" with the phrase "intelligent being", and no dog outside of fiction has ever exhibited enough intelligence to have earned the label "dog being". Now back to humans, and particularly to brain-dead humans on extreme medical life-support. Why do the Courts allow such humans to be unplugged? Because they are no longer "human beings" in the sense of being intelligent beings! Brain-death has made those humans into nothing more than living animal bodies. Finally, we return to an unborn human, which we can legitimately call a fetus, but which nobody has ever called a "fetus being". It is not an intelligent being; even a full-term/late-term fetus provably has no more intelligence than an adult dog; it is a living animal body that also has an animal-level mind. So, while a human fetus can correctly be called an unborn human, it would not be correct at all to call it an unborn human being (it would be POV-specific to do that). V ( talk) 17:11, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
When arguments related to the abortion debate begin with a reference to the ultimate position they take, e.g. 'Pro-life supporters argue', in many cases this can stimulate a preconceived acceptance/rejection of the argument before the actual argument is read. I believe it would be sensible to do the following: - remove references to 'pro-choice/life' within the abortion debate section - Where possible, conclude with the position an argument ultimately takes, rather than start with it, e.g. 'Therefore, they argue that abortion is permissible after xxx' Utopial ( talk) 2 June 2009
I believe that a more generic and meaningful title should be used, such as 'Subordinate Rights', particularly as analogies not involving the body can be used for comparison and the underlying theme in this discussion relates to the relative value of different rights. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Utopial ( talk • contribs) 01:47, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
<--(undent)I have provided my comments, and as the only one who wants to change the consensus version, the burden of providing evidence to justify a change is on you. You have not convinced me, but then, I haven't seen what exactly you are proposing yet. Dawn Bard ( talk) 04:11, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Since it appears with the editors here, we are at an impasse. Would a Request for Comment be helpful in this case? Paranormal Skeptic ( talk) 01:37, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Due to an impass on subject matter here, question is which is more neutral in tone, in respect to the aricle: fetus, embryo, or the unborn Paranormal Skeptic ( talk) 04:51, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
:*Who would ask such a question? Obviously we are talking about an unborn human being. --
Andrew Kelly (
talk) 05:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::*"Unborn" is just as accurate. And, seeing as abortion is murder, being neutral is simply not important. Any attempt to define abortion as anything but murder or to define the unborn children as anything but unborn children is an attempt to whitewash the sin of abortion. --
Andrew Kelly (
talk) 06:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::::*The fact that abortion is murder is not an opinion or a personal view. It is biblical fact. As I said above, any attempt to put abortion in a positive or neutral light is whitewash, even when it is for the sake of "being neutral." And, on a side note, it is not possible to be neutral. Everyone believes something and their beliefs manifest themselves in everything that they do. The writers of Wikipedia cannot just leave their beliefs at the door when they come to write. That is why so much of Wikipedia is written from an atheistic point of view, because many of the writers of Wikipedia are atheists. Total neutrality is impossible. --
Andrew Kelly (
talk) 06:41, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Andrew, "abortion is murder" is not a fact, because there is debate as to whether unborn babies are human persons. As for biblical fact, the Bible may be fact to you, but that is your belief. Unfortunately, the writers of Wikipedia must leave their beliefs at the door, because this is a neutral encyclopedia for reference purposes and not an outlet for your beliefs. If you want to write about your own beliefs you can write your own blog or website or join a pro-life forum but in Wikipedia we must address both sides of all controversies, and not assume any controversial position is a "fact". -Unsigned —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
12.157.93.130 (
talk) 18:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC)