This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
An abortion is the removal of an embryo or fetus from a woman's womb, resulting in or caused by its death. This can occur spontaneously, in which case it is referred to as a "spontaneous abortion" (or miscarriage), or be intentionally induced through chemical, surgical, or other means. Although the word, in the strict medical definition, refers only to non-viable fetuses or embryos, in common parlance, abortion refers to any induced procedure that results in the death of an embryo or fetus, even a viable one, such as in controversial late-term abortion procedures.
Various methods have been used to induce abortions throughout the centuries. In the 20th century, the morality of induced abortion became the subject of intense political debate in many parts of the world. Opponents consider the embryo or fetus to be fully human and therefore consider induced abortion to be murder, whereas proponents of legal induced abortion consider access to safe abortion to be a basic human right for women.
Been through my proposed changes and there aren't many, the result is below, and most of the differences are in wording as opposed to content:
(Simplified miscarriage explanation, linked viable, removed 'strict', removed emphasis on 'any', removed 'procedures', changed to 'since the 20th C'). I think the simplification is an improvement, and is better than the current version. |→ Spaully° τ 14:22, 11 April 2006 ( GMT)
(edit conflict, hope nothing was lost)
I don't think we're necessarily supposed to go for the average from 25 sources. If 23 of them don't mention death, we should only follow that if we think that death is inaccurate. Does the fetus not die? Is there not some essential difference between an abortion and a live birth? Was the fetus not alive before the abortion? Is it not dead now? Is it possible that other sources are suppressing "death" out of some political motivation? After all, if Wikipedia finds that 23 out of 25 sources dealing with the case of Michael Jackson's sex abuse trial seem to be sympathetic to him, or hostile to him, that wouldn't mean that we should follow their example. Our job is to present facts, uncensored and without comment. Nobody has convincingly argued yet that the fetus doesn't die. AnnH ♫ 16:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
(reduce)It appears to me to be precisely the same in meaning as the current version, with two minor differences: removal, which rules out the death of the fetus wherein the fetus is not expelled or removed (which usually results in later removal or expulsion, or death of the woman) - yet leaves out the expulsion possibility; and that it is more verbose. If I have missed something please point it out. I am unaware that confusion existed about whether the fetus remained in the woman's body post-abortion; if consensus is that this is a matter for possible confusion or misunderstanding, clarification is indeed in order. Otherwise, I see no improvement over the current consensus version, and some negatives, in that it is more wordy, and less accurate (since it specifies removal yet ignores expulsion. I further object to the use of the word "murder" in the intro. KillerChihuahua ?!? 13:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Abortion commonly refers to a medical procedure in humans that actively ends a pregnancy, resulting in the products of conception (fetus/embryo, the placenta, and fetal membranes) prematurely dying. It can be performed any time after 5 weeks up through the third trimester, but is most commonly performed between 7 and 12 weeks (80% according to blah blah); abortions are rarely performed after viability (see LTA). There a number of different methods used in the abortion procedure such as medical, chemical, and other means. Any mammal can undergo an abortion, but the media focuses on abortion in humans. Medically speaking, the term abortion refers to any termination of pregnancy that occurs before 20 weeks. This includes spontaneous abortions, AKA miscarriages, but never refers to stillbirths.
An abortion in common parlance refers to an induced procedure that serves to terminate a pregnancy with the intentions of casuing the death of the products of conception (an embryo or fetus, fetal membranes, and the placenta). This can occur through chemical, surgical, or other means. Technically, the word abortion is defined by a majority of medical sources as the termination of a pregnancy that results in an embryo or nonviable fetus being expelled or removed from the uterus. This definition not only refers to spontaneous abortions or miscarriages, but also applies to all mammalian pregnancies. However, for the purposes of this article, the term abortion will be used interchangeably with the induced abortion procedure in humans.
I think we are close to consensus on the current definitions, so I think both of these try to make too many changes. Also I don't understand your insistance on the 'products of conception' unless you are trying to make a point about truth, if true watch out for WP:POINT. |→ Spaully° τ 17:44, 11 April 2006 ( GMT)
We are told to assume good faith, but sometimes that assumption is plainly false. Alienus 18:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
[reset indent] Here is how I remember things going. All progress on the article was being halted because the main talk page was being consumed with the d-word debate. I proposed creating a talk subpage just for that, as other top teir articles have (see Jesus) and with the help of an admin (IIRC GT) we moved content there and added links to the subpage. We debated some more and I eventually proposed using two definitions, and explained my justifiation for the concept. The concept was well recieved and over 5 editors helped to reword and restructure the paragraph. Additionally, we had support of around 3 more editors. We all decided to mention this on the main page for the users who were not helping with consensus. On April 4th, I placed a notice on the main subpage giving the proposed paragraph and sending users to the talk subpage. [2] We got additional support for this version, and only had 2 users opposed to it (G&E and patsw. Ann had reluctantly agreed back then). After all this, most users decided that there was consensus. A large number of users had their hand in creating and editing the final version. We went to the main talk page and advertised it. This wasn't a secret decision, and it wasn't a small group. I specifically said that if it wasn't perfect, at least it was better than the inaccurate old version, so we could at least replace it and then keep working on it if users felt it still needed improvement. Unfortunately, around the same time, there was an edit war going on having to do with the mizuko image. So the page was protected. And an admin (possibly) abused his power by editing the page during protection. But keep in mind that all the stuff on the talk page seemed to have consensus, and the protection had nothing to do with the first paragraph. This is why after all the work we did, and the advertising on the main page, it is frustrating that G&E went and asked specifically editors with known pro-life POV to vote on this wording, without looking at our process and reasons behind our decisions, and without helping our consensus. So it was shot down, by editors that aren't even here helping us make it better. Yeah, sob story, I know. I just wish we could temporarily replace the current version with my proposal until an even better version is consensed upon.-- Andrew c 22:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
These are comments on Andrew's rough cut 2: terminate is a euphemism. Products of conception is euphemism. No abortion is performed in order to obtain the death of a placenta. The reference to fetal membranes is bizarre — why not mention the loss of the amniotic fluid which takes place in many abortions?
Induced abortions take place for two reasons: where the life of the mother is at risk (i.e. ectopic pregnancy, uterine cancer, etc.) and the intention is to save the mothers life (and if it were possible to preserve the life of the unborn child, it would be attempted) or when the death of the unborn child is directly sought.
Common parlance can be better written as commonly.
This can occur... Why is induced abortion refered to in the passive voice — do they really just occur?
A spontaeous abortion is not the termination of a pregnancy but the death of a fetus or embryo. The end of the pregancy is the consequence of that death. patsw 16:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Patsw has made some great points - and the replies don't really adequately address those points. Instead the tired old crap about "unborn child is POV" is posted - when everyone knows that patsw is NOT advocating use of that word. It is beyond silly to argue that induced abortion is NOT aimed PRIMARILY at killin th fetus and removing it and its support system. ____G_o_o_d____ 05:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Women can have tissue removed from their bodies for a variety of reasons. When they are pregnant, the goal is to produce a dead fetus - to abort its further development. The subsequent and ancillary goal is to then remove the now-dead fetus and its support system. In fact, often a fetus will survive and trained medical professionals will facilitate its death (homicide by absence of due care), a practice that is winked at since the prevailing and feminist view is that the mom is entitled to a dead fetus. If the placenta lives no one would care - in fact its life might have some medical use (as corneas do, or blood cells do, or as stem cells do) . But if the fetus were to live, it by law is afforded full human rights as any child has. Not to mention the responsibilities and burdens that the parents of this child would have. Thus, the death of the fetus is ESSENTIAL to an abortion, whereas the death of any other products of conception is simply NOT essential. No one gives a damn if other products of conception live or die - just that they be removed from the woman to avoid infection, etc. Abortion rights has now come to mean that a pregnant woman has a right to a dead fetus (if the child is not wanted). Given the consistent testimony of the doctors who perform thousands of partial birth abortions that almost all of them are elective with no health issues involved, why else would a woman endure an extremely invasive partial birth abortion (arguably worse than a normal live delivery) after 8 or 9 months of pregnancy? It is simple: she wants a dead baby. Since most of the babies and moms who abort this way are healthy, it is safe to say that mom has decided that the existence of the new child would be painful or harmful in some way. So she hires the hitman - its legal before the little guy or gal pops out of the womb. Why else would partial birth abortion even exist? The whole notion is to rid (by killing) the mom and society of the whining-crying-poopy-unwanted child. Which is what all abortion is essentially about: a dead fetus/baby. ____G_o_o_d____ 21:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I know it's particularly difficult with a very controversial subject on which many of us have such strong views, but could everyone please try to restrict comments to those that are directly related to how we can best improve the article for the future, and not what we should or shouldn't have done in the past. When pages get very badly cluttered, it's hard for those who were involved to stay involved unless they can give it undivided attention. That's why it took me so long to vote. I didn't want to vote until i had examined the talk pages properly — and with so much jumping around from one talk page to another, and so many posts that said more than they needed to, it just got too time consuming, while I was doing other things on Wikipedia and in real life.
I know it's hard, particularly for the person who hasn't had the last word, but whichever person it is, could you consider walking away now? Not from the article, but from the discussion of who did what. Saying whatever you want to say won't won't make this talk page better; it will make it worse. AnnH ♫ 00:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Before completely ditching the work on my proposal, I was looking through the reject votes to see what we could do to change it. I believe we can easily implement Severa suggested change. G&E and WikiCats object to one single word in the whole thing, and that is "nonviable". However, as I have previously mentioned, if we remove nonviable, we are no longer talking about how abortion is "medically defined". We simply cannot remove the word because we don't like it. It accurately describes how abortion is defined in a vast majority of medical definitions. If I added citations after that sentence, would that convince G&E and WikiCats that we are simply reporting our sources? Str1977, while the first definition refers to the medical POV, the second definition refers to the common POV, and death is clearly included in the latter. I do not see how this is obfuscation. Remember, if we are citing sources on what the medical definitions say, it would be inaccurate to add "death" because the medical definitions do not define abortion in that manner. Homestarmy: no one is saying abortions do not occur on viable fetuses, in fact there were 2 clauses in that paragraph specifically refering to these very rare cases. As Severa has pointed out, this is giving undue weight. I'm not sure how we can reach a compromise with patsw and Dominick. I'm open to suggestions! AnnH, I tried to address your concerns above. I do not see any problem with refering to the medical POV. I do not believe mentioning death in the second common definition is trying to hide an unpleasent fact. Finally, I would propose also implementing SlimVirgin's suggestions in regards to the mass media sentence. So taking this all into consideration, here is another version of the proposal. Can people suggest how they would change it for the better (especially those who voted reject)? Thanks for bearing with us thus far.
Homestarmy: Please read through the cited definitions (and refer to this and this for the ones not linked). How would your phrase the medical definition if we were to exclude the word "nonviable". Some definitions deal with this by adding on a clause such as "before the sixth month" or "before it is capable of sustaining life" or "before the twentieth week" or "before the fetus is viable" but I felt that this approach was too wordy for something that could be solved with a single adjective.-- Andrew c 14:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
(indent reset) I believe that this version resolves most of the issues which have been raised. I, at least, would be happy to adopt it. The sources certainly help solidify it. - Severa | !!! 02:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok assuming that these changes we have been discussing go into the proposal, do any of the folk who voted reject (besides Severa, who has already made her feelings clear) feel this version is good enough to replace the old version until an even better version arises?-- Andrew c 17:58, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
A humble suggestion from someone who has not been involved in the debate:
The last 3 issues could easily be solved by removing these things, but I am not sure how to change the first issue. Not many people seem to agree with me that the significance of the fetus dying is a POV that needs to be qualified somehow. I just feel your wording makes this issue worse by mentioning all the products of conception, but then focusing in on only one of them dying, when in fact all of them die. The last two sentences are a little odd, but I can't quite place my finger on why. Maybe they are a little wordy? -- Andrew c 14:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Looks encyclopedic, but the two definitions thing had a certain appeal to me. Kind of clarified there were not only two worlds/perspectives on the issue and the language, but professional and common understanding of the very word "abortion". I guess I have a bias for etymology. It does keep the lead short by moving "late term abortion" and viability issues to elsewhere; as they are certainly debatable subjects.
Perhaps I'm thinking subconciously the fact medical professionals define abortion to be of a non-viable fetus, and how that differentiates itself from common usage; it becomes a key bioethical point of the debate and that could be lead worthy; as it is they who perform abortions... their POV could be necessary to mention. Then again, since this is relevant to the "debate", maybe that meme should go on the Abortion debate lead. Meh, just my stream of consciouness... I'm hungry. - Roy Boy 800 19:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Slim, I like what you have suggested. I need to digest it. THanks for your efforts here. ____G_o_o_d____ 15:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
As its generally agreed the current version has to go; perhaps we can now implement SlimVirgin's proposal. - Roy Boy 800 18:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you could post this at the bottom of the talk page? And maybe its time to archive the first poll. All that said, I believe a number of concerns have been cleared up with my proposal, and I do not see why my proposal couldn't be used for the time being, until an even better first paragraph comes along. The main objections come from people who do not understand or otherwise want to ignore the cited medical sources. I know I am being a total jerk by writting off people's concerns, but I can see no justification for ignoring the medical definition. The most valid concern was from Ann, who thought that the common definition should go first. Because she initially supported my proposal, I would hope she would support its temporary approval as an improvement on the current state of affair (and until an even better version is agreed upon). -- Andrew c 18:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm away from home at the moment, and have less good access to internet connection than usual. I'll just comment that I was unaware that it was "generally agreed the current version has to go", but I have been following the discussion less than usual. I made a proposal here, and I think some people liked it, and others didn't comment. I wasn't actually expecting that my suggestion would be adopted, but it gives an indication of what I consider to be a full and accurate version, which respects NPOV by not implying that the fetus is or isn't a human being, and by not suppressing the fact that — regardless of what it actually is — it dies. I'd like to make it clear again that I do not oppose the medical definition (if that's really the medical definition), but since people use the word to refer to the process late in a pregnancy as well as early, I think the common meaning should go first. After all, it is usage, not codification in books, that determines meanings. Otherwise, dictionaries would never have to be updated except to add new words. "Presently" changed its meaning over the centuries from "immediately" to "in a little while", to (the not-yet-acceptable) "currently", precisely because the people began to use the word in a different way. I agree with SlimVirgin about removing the bit about human abortions getting the most attention. I think her proposal should have "removal" as well as "expulsion". An abortion can be one or the other. And I'm not keen on "products of conception". It sounds a bit awkward and unnatural. In my view, that phrase is used with the purpose of "avoiding" another word or phrase. Other than that, I'd be happy. My main concern is to see that "death" is not left out, and that we don't give the impression that abortions are carried out only before the fetus would have been capable of surviving outside the womb. AnnH ♫ 07:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I discovered the term "intra-uterine fetal death" (or IUFD). Apparently a medical term for the cessation of life in a fetus is "death". ____G_o_o_d____ 08:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
An abortion is the premature termination of a human or mammalian pregnancy resulting in or due to the death of an embryo or fetus. Abortion can occur spontaneously ( miscarriage) or be effected through chemical, surgical, or other means.
There have been various methods of inducing an abortion throughout the centuries. In the 20th century, the ethics and morality of abortion became the subject of intense political debate in many areas of the world.
AvB ÷ talk 21:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone left a message for me to post here about the opening part the article. I do not have hours to sift through all the back and forth. Arguments and votes are completely contrary to the point of any encyclopedia with the only exception being when there is no clear consensus among the experts. From what I can see, none of you have bothered to reference the experts and list them here, which should be the only discussion going on. All the arguments are rather pointless unless all of you happen to be known experts, in which case I apologize for this comment and my changes.-- NColemam 22:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Ha ha. Some poor guy (or gal) calls it like it is, and gets blabbed in return. Evidence for his claim. A closer look at what? You could have posted a hyperlink to the evidence that there is no clear consensus. If that were true, certainly you would be able to cite it. Instead, blab blab blab. O.P.Nuhss
As I recall, we recently had a discussion about when pregnancy began. There has been a contentious editor warring here, who has nonetheless provided a number of sources which were claimed in the edit summary as being for the after implantation definition of pregnancy as regards abortion. One was. The others either do not specify or were not sources at all for the paragraph (such as a list of obstetrics related classes offered at a university.)
KillerChihuahua ?!? 13:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
So why did someone add the tag without adding an entry on the talk page? -- Andrew c 03:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I still think a good solution is to include two different definitions, from two different POVs, covering two different usages of the word. But apparently citing the medical definition is to controversial for some editors because it uses the word "non-viable". I'll stop being bitter, and just remind everyone to take discussion about the first paragraph to the talk subpage.-- Andrew c 01:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
From what I've seen here, "death" is HARDLY a consensus term and should either be removed or tagged disputed post-haste! Struct 06:03, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that we're past any point where we can call any opening sentence the "consensus version". - GTBacchus( talk) 03:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Erudite comes from Latin eruditus, from e-, "out of, from" + rudis, "rough, untaught," which is also the source of English rude. Hence one who is erudite has been brought out of a rough, untaught, rude state. KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
An abortion is the removal of an embryo or fetus from a woman's womb, resulting in or caused by its death. This can occur spontaneously, in which case it is referred to as a "spontaneous abortion" (or miscarriage), or be intentionally induced through chemical, surgical, or other means. Although the word, in the strict medical definition, refers only to non-viable fetuses or embryos, in common parlance, abortion refers to any induced procedure that results in the death of an embryo or fetus, even a viable one, such as in controversial late-term abortion procedures.
Various methods have been used to induce abortions throughout the centuries. In the 20th century, the morality of induced abortion became the subject of intense political debate in many parts of the world. Opponents consider the embryo or fetus to be fully human and therefore consider induced abortion to be murder, whereas proponents of legal induced abortion consider access to safe abortion to be a basic human right for women.
Been through my proposed changes and there aren't many, the result is below, and most of the differences are in wording as opposed to content:
(Simplified miscarriage explanation, linked viable, removed 'strict', removed emphasis on 'any', removed 'procedures', changed to 'since the 20th C'). I think the simplification is an improvement, and is better than the current version. |→ Spaully° τ 14:22, 11 April 2006 ( GMT)
(edit conflict, hope nothing was lost)
I don't think we're necessarily supposed to go for the average from 25 sources. If 23 of them don't mention death, we should only follow that if we think that death is inaccurate. Does the fetus not die? Is there not some essential difference between an abortion and a live birth? Was the fetus not alive before the abortion? Is it not dead now? Is it possible that other sources are suppressing "death" out of some political motivation? After all, if Wikipedia finds that 23 out of 25 sources dealing with the case of Michael Jackson's sex abuse trial seem to be sympathetic to him, or hostile to him, that wouldn't mean that we should follow their example. Our job is to present facts, uncensored and without comment. Nobody has convincingly argued yet that the fetus doesn't die. AnnH ♫ 16:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
(reduce)It appears to me to be precisely the same in meaning as the current version, with two minor differences: removal, which rules out the death of the fetus wherein the fetus is not expelled or removed (which usually results in later removal or expulsion, or death of the woman) - yet leaves out the expulsion possibility; and that it is more verbose. If I have missed something please point it out. I am unaware that confusion existed about whether the fetus remained in the woman's body post-abortion; if consensus is that this is a matter for possible confusion or misunderstanding, clarification is indeed in order. Otherwise, I see no improvement over the current consensus version, and some negatives, in that it is more wordy, and less accurate (since it specifies removal yet ignores expulsion. I further object to the use of the word "murder" in the intro. KillerChihuahua ?!? 13:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Abortion commonly refers to a medical procedure in humans that actively ends a pregnancy, resulting in the products of conception (fetus/embryo, the placenta, and fetal membranes) prematurely dying. It can be performed any time after 5 weeks up through the third trimester, but is most commonly performed between 7 and 12 weeks (80% according to blah blah); abortions are rarely performed after viability (see LTA). There a number of different methods used in the abortion procedure such as medical, chemical, and other means. Any mammal can undergo an abortion, but the media focuses on abortion in humans. Medically speaking, the term abortion refers to any termination of pregnancy that occurs before 20 weeks. This includes spontaneous abortions, AKA miscarriages, but never refers to stillbirths.
An abortion in common parlance refers to an induced procedure that serves to terminate a pregnancy with the intentions of casuing the death of the products of conception (an embryo or fetus, fetal membranes, and the placenta). This can occur through chemical, surgical, or other means. Technically, the word abortion is defined by a majority of medical sources as the termination of a pregnancy that results in an embryo or nonviable fetus being expelled or removed from the uterus. This definition not only refers to spontaneous abortions or miscarriages, but also applies to all mammalian pregnancies. However, for the purposes of this article, the term abortion will be used interchangeably with the induced abortion procedure in humans.
I think we are close to consensus on the current definitions, so I think both of these try to make too many changes. Also I don't understand your insistance on the 'products of conception' unless you are trying to make a point about truth, if true watch out for WP:POINT. |→ Spaully° τ 17:44, 11 April 2006 ( GMT)
We are told to assume good faith, but sometimes that assumption is plainly false. Alienus 18:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
[reset indent] Here is how I remember things going. All progress on the article was being halted because the main talk page was being consumed with the d-word debate. I proposed creating a talk subpage just for that, as other top teir articles have (see Jesus) and with the help of an admin (IIRC GT) we moved content there and added links to the subpage. We debated some more and I eventually proposed using two definitions, and explained my justifiation for the concept. The concept was well recieved and over 5 editors helped to reword and restructure the paragraph. Additionally, we had support of around 3 more editors. We all decided to mention this on the main page for the users who were not helping with consensus. On April 4th, I placed a notice on the main subpage giving the proposed paragraph and sending users to the talk subpage. [2] We got additional support for this version, and only had 2 users opposed to it (G&E and patsw. Ann had reluctantly agreed back then). After all this, most users decided that there was consensus. A large number of users had their hand in creating and editing the final version. We went to the main talk page and advertised it. This wasn't a secret decision, and it wasn't a small group. I specifically said that if it wasn't perfect, at least it was better than the inaccurate old version, so we could at least replace it and then keep working on it if users felt it still needed improvement. Unfortunately, around the same time, there was an edit war going on having to do with the mizuko image. So the page was protected. And an admin (possibly) abused his power by editing the page during protection. But keep in mind that all the stuff on the talk page seemed to have consensus, and the protection had nothing to do with the first paragraph. This is why after all the work we did, and the advertising on the main page, it is frustrating that G&E went and asked specifically editors with known pro-life POV to vote on this wording, without looking at our process and reasons behind our decisions, and without helping our consensus. So it was shot down, by editors that aren't even here helping us make it better. Yeah, sob story, I know. I just wish we could temporarily replace the current version with my proposal until an even better version is consensed upon.-- Andrew c 22:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
These are comments on Andrew's rough cut 2: terminate is a euphemism. Products of conception is euphemism. No abortion is performed in order to obtain the death of a placenta. The reference to fetal membranes is bizarre — why not mention the loss of the amniotic fluid which takes place in many abortions?
Induced abortions take place for two reasons: where the life of the mother is at risk (i.e. ectopic pregnancy, uterine cancer, etc.) and the intention is to save the mothers life (and if it were possible to preserve the life of the unborn child, it would be attempted) or when the death of the unborn child is directly sought.
Common parlance can be better written as commonly.
This can occur... Why is induced abortion refered to in the passive voice — do they really just occur?
A spontaeous abortion is not the termination of a pregnancy but the death of a fetus or embryo. The end of the pregancy is the consequence of that death. patsw 16:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Patsw has made some great points - and the replies don't really adequately address those points. Instead the tired old crap about "unborn child is POV" is posted - when everyone knows that patsw is NOT advocating use of that word. It is beyond silly to argue that induced abortion is NOT aimed PRIMARILY at killin th fetus and removing it and its support system. ____G_o_o_d____ 05:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Women can have tissue removed from their bodies for a variety of reasons. When they are pregnant, the goal is to produce a dead fetus - to abort its further development. The subsequent and ancillary goal is to then remove the now-dead fetus and its support system. In fact, often a fetus will survive and trained medical professionals will facilitate its death (homicide by absence of due care), a practice that is winked at since the prevailing and feminist view is that the mom is entitled to a dead fetus. If the placenta lives no one would care - in fact its life might have some medical use (as corneas do, or blood cells do, or as stem cells do) . But if the fetus were to live, it by law is afforded full human rights as any child has. Not to mention the responsibilities and burdens that the parents of this child would have. Thus, the death of the fetus is ESSENTIAL to an abortion, whereas the death of any other products of conception is simply NOT essential. No one gives a damn if other products of conception live or die - just that they be removed from the woman to avoid infection, etc. Abortion rights has now come to mean that a pregnant woman has a right to a dead fetus (if the child is not wanted). Given the consistent testimony of the doctors who perform thousands of partial birth abortions that almost all of them are elective with no health issues involved, why else would a woman endure an extremely invasive partial birth abortion (arguably worse than a normal live delivery) after 8 or 9 months of pregnancy? It is simple: she wants a dead baby. Since most of the babies and moms who abort this way are healthy, it is safe to say that mom has decided that the existence of the new child would be painful or harmful in some way. So she hires the hitman - its legal before the little guy or gal pops out of the womb. Why else would partial birth abortion even exist? The whole notion is to rid (by killing) the mom and society of the whining-crying-poopy-unwanted child. Which is what all abortion is essentially about: a dead fetus/baby. ____G_o_o_d____ 21:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I know it's particularly difficult with a very controversial subject on which many of us have such strong views, but could everyone please try to restrict comments to those that are directly related to how we can best improve the article for the future, and not what we should or shouldn't have done in the past. When pages get very badly cluttered, it's hard for those who were involved to stay involved unless they can give it undivided attention. That's why it took me so long to vote. I didn't want to vote until i had examined the talk pages properly — and with so much jumping around from one talk page to another, and so many posts that said more than they needed to, it just got too time consuming, while I was doing other things on Wikipedia and in real life.
I know it's hard, particularly for the person who hasn't had the last word, but whichever person it is, could you consider walking away now? Not from the article, but from the discussion of who did what. Saying whatever you want to say won't won't make this talk page better; it will make it worse. AnnH ♫ 00:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Before completely ditching the work on my proposal, I was looking through the reject votes to see what we could do to change it. I believe we can easily implement Severa suggested change. G&E and WikiCats object to one single word in the whole thing, and that is "nonviable". However, as I have previously mentioned, if we remove nonviable, we are no longer talking about how abortion is "medically defined". We simply cannot remove the word because we don't like it. It accurately describes how abortion is defined in a vast majority of medical definitions. If I added citations after that sentence, would that convince G&E and WikiCats that we are simply reporting our sources? Str1977, while the first definition refers to the medical POV, the second definition refers to the common POV, and death is clearly included in the latter. I do not see how this is obfuscation. Remember, if we are citing sources on what the medical definitions say, it would be inaccurate to add "death" because the medical definitions do not define abortion in that manner. Homestarmy: no one is saying abortions do not occur on viable fetuses, in fact there were 2 clauses in that paragraph specifically refering to these very rare cases. As Severa has pointed out, this is giving undue weight. I'm not sure how we can reach a compromise with patsw and Dominick. I'm open to suggestions! AnnH, I tried to address your concerns above. I do not see any problem with refering to the medical POV. I do not believe mentioning death in the second common definition is trying to hide an unpleasent fact. Finally, I would propose also implementing SlimVirgin's suggestions in regards to the mass media sentence. So taking this all into consideration, here is another version of the proposal. Can people suggest how they would change it for the better (especially those who voted reject)? Thanks for bearing with us thus far.
Homestarmy: Please read through the cited definitions (and refer to this and this for the ones not linked). How would your phrase the medical definition if we were to exclude the word "nonviable". Some definitions deal with this by adding on a clause such as "before the sixth month" or "before it is capable of sustaining life" or "before the twentieth week" or "before the fetus is viable" but I felt that this approach was too wordy for something that could be solved with a single adjective.-- Andrew c 14:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
(indent reset) I believe that this version resolves most of the issues which have been raised. I, at least, would be happy to adopt it. The sources certainly help solidify it. - Severa | !!! 02:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok assuming that these changes we have been discussing go into the proposal, do any of the folk who voted reject (besides Severa, who has already made her feelings clear) feel this version is good enough to replace the old version until an even better version arises?-- Andrew c 17:58, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
A humble suggestion from someone who has not been involved in the debate:
The last 3 issues could easily be solved by removing these things, but I am not sure how to change the first issue. Not many people seem to agree with me that the significance of the fetus dying is a POV that needs to be qualified somehow. I just feel your wording makes this issue worse by mentioning all the products of conception, but then focusing in on only one of them dying, when in fact all of them die. The last two sentences are a little odd, but I can't quite place my finger on why. Maybe they are a little wordy? -- Andrew c 14:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Looks encyclopedic, but the two definitions thing had a certain appeal to me. Kind of clarified there were not only two worlds/perspectives on the issue and the language, but professional and common understanding of the very word "abortion". I guess I have a bias for etymology. It does keep the lead short by moving "late term abortion" and viability issues to elsewhere; as they are certainly debatable subjects.
Perhaps I'm thinking subconciously the fact medical professionals define abortion to be of a non-viable fetus, and how that differentiates itself from common usage; it becomes a key bioethical point of the debate and that could be lead worthy; as it is they who perform abortions... their POV could be necessary to mention. Then again, since this is relevant to the "debate", maybe that meme should go on the Abortion debate lead. Meh, just my stream of consciouness... I'm hungry. - Roy Boy 800 19:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Slim, I like what you have suggested. I need to digest it. THanks for your efforts here. ____G_o_o_d____ 15:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
As its generally agreed the current version has to go; perhaps we can now implement SlimVirgin's proposal. - Roy Boy 800 18:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you could post this at the bottom of the talk page? And maybe its time to archive the first poll. All that said, I believe a number of concerns have been cleared up with my proposal, and I do not see why my proposal couldn't be used for the time being, until an even better first paragraph comes along. The main objections come from people who do not understand or otherwise want to ignore the cited medical sources. I know I am being a total jerk by writting off people's concerns, but I can see no justification for ignoring the medical definition. The most valid concern was from Ann, who thought that the common definition should go first. Because she initially supported my proposal, I would hope she would support its temporary approval as an improvement on the current state of affair (and until an even better version is agreed upon). -- Andrew c 18:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm away from home at the moment, and have less good access to internet connection than usual. I'll just comment that I was unaware that it was "generally agreed the current version has to go", but I have been following the discussion less than usual. I made a proposal here, and I think some people liked it, and others didn't comment. I wasn't actually expecting that my suggestion would be adopted, but it gives an indication of what I consider to be a full and accurate version, which respects NPOV by not implying that the fetus is or isn't a human being, and by not suppressing the fact that — regardless of what it actually is — it dies. I'd like to make it clear again that I do not oppose the medical definition (if that's really the medical definition), but since people use the word to refer to the process late in a pregnancy as well as early, I think the common meaning should go first. After all, it is usage, not codification in books, that determines meanings. Otherwise, dictionaries would never have to be updated except to add new words. "Presently" changed its meaning over the centuries from "immediately" to "in a little while", to (the not-yet-acceptable) "currently", precisely because the people began to use the word in a different way. I agree with SlimVirgin about removing the bit about human abortions getting the most attention. I think her proposal should have "removal" as well as "expulsion". An abortion can be one or the other. And I'm not keen on "products of conception". It sounds a bit awkward and unnatural. In my view, that phrase is used with the purpose of "avoiding" another word or phrase. Other than that, I'd be happy. My main concern is to see that "death" is not left out, and that we don't give the impression that abortions are carried out only before the fetus would have been capable of surviving outside the womb. AnnH ♫ 07:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I discovered the term "intra-uterine fetal death" (or IUFD). Apparently a medical term for the cessation of life in a fetus is "death". ____G_o_o_d____ 08:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
An abortion is the premature termination of a human or mammalian pregnancy resulting in or due to the death of an embryo or fetus. Abortion can occur spontaneously ( miscarriage) or be effected through chemical, surgical, or other means.
There have been various methods of inducing an abortion throughout the centuries. In the 20th century, the ethics and morality of abortion became the subject of intense political debate in many areas of the world.
AvB ÷ talk 21:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone left a message for me to post here about the opening part the article. I do not have hours to sift through all the back and forth. Arguments and votes are completely contrary to the point of any encyclopedia with the only exception being when there is no clear consensus among the experts. From what I can see, none of you have bothered to reference the experts and list them here, which should be the only discussion going on. All the arguments are rather pointless unless all of you happen to be known experts, in which case I apologize for this comment and my changes.-- NColemam 22:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Ha ha. Some poor guy (or gal) calls it like it is, and gets blabbed in return. Evidence for his claim. A closer look at what? You could have posted a hyperlink to the evidence that there is no clear consensus. If that were true, certainly you would be able to cite it. Instead, blab blab blab. O.P.Nuhss
As I recall, we recently had a discussion about when pregnancy began. There has been a contentious editor warring here, who has nonetheless provided a number of sources which were claimed in the edit summary as being for the after implantation definition of pregnancy as regards abortion. One was. The others either do not specify or were not sources at all for the paragraph (such as a list of obstetrics related classes offered at a university.)
KillerChihuahua ?!? 13:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
So why did someone add the tag without adding an entry on the talk page? -- Andrew c 03:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I still think a good solution is to include two different definitions, from two different POVs, covering two different usages of the word. But apparently citing the medical definition is to controversial for some editors because it uses the word "non-viable". I'll stop being bitter, and just remind everyone to take discussion about the first paragraph to the talk subpage.-- Andrew c 01:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
From what I've seen here, "death" is HARDLY a consensus term and should either be removed or tagged disputed post-haste! Struct 06:03, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that we're past any point where we can call any opening sentence the "consensus version". - GTBacchus( talk) 03:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Erudite comes from Latin eruditus, from e-, "out of, from" + rudis, "rough, untaught," which is also the source of English rude. Hence one who is erudite has been brought out of a rough, untaught, rude state. KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)