This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 |
Motion 1: I move that all "death in first paragraph" material on this page be moved to Talk:Abortion/First_paragraph.
Motion 2: I move that "death" in paragraph one be tagged { { Dubious } } as an interim solution to prevent edit war without end.
Even though I feel strongly about both of these motions, I also feel strongly about giving civil discourse a chance. I will not act on either of these proposals without community consensus. Please comment. Struct 03:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I was bold and did Motion 1. So if you are looking for a recent DEATH discussion, please visit the talk subpage!-- Andrew c 04:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Looks like Motion 1 is a fait accompli. Kinda wish you'd waited, Andrew, but not a big deal. Anyone have any strong objections?
As for Motion 2, I count 5-2 against. It looks like some of the objections are to the form of the tag rather than the form of the sentence. Upon reflection, I agree that it's the wrong tag, I'm withdrawing my motion, and I'm submitting this one in its place:
Revised Motion 2: I move that paragraph 1 be tagged { {POV-section} } as an interim solution. Tags may not prevent edit wars, but this one could at least delay one. Struct 02:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and KC, the fact of the death is very much disputed, given that something that never lived cannot die. I will not cede that life begins at conception, that is not a scientifically established fact, anti-choice dogma to the contrary. Defining the cessation of viable cellular function as "death" is way too problematic. Otherwise, one could argue that women who ovulate and then menstruate are complicit in the "death" of their ova... or worse: that men who masturbate commit genocide! Struct 02:21, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
One last item before I yield the floor: as an alternative, I move that "death" be changed to "destruction". Struct 02:23, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Just a random outside opinion: would "removal" of the embryo/fetus make more sense than death or destruction? Both latter terms have rather negative connotations and make a presumption that medical science has yet to support. .:. Jareth.:. babelfish 02:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
(indent reset)
I would argue that it isn't our preview to write in such a way as to assume the manner in which our information is to be used. We aren't writing an informed consent pamphlet, as Ackoz seemed to imply, but rather an encyclopaedia. We provide information, in as NPOV a format as possible, and let the reader determine its applicability to their needs. - Severa ( !!!) 03:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
It seems clear to me at this point that the community is deeply commited to the word "death" and that my proposal to change that word is not going to gain any traction. I respect the WM process, therefore I'm going to withdraw my motions to change the opening sentence.
However, I'm also deeply appalled by that word's (in my opinion) inaccurate and inflammatory misusage. I cannot in good conscience participate in this discussion or contribute to this article so long as a deeply entrenched (as I see it) non-neutral perspective remains, and I hope y'all will respect that in return. I'm removing this article from my watchlist and considering it a non-neutral, unreliable and inaccurate source. I hope you'll take my word for it that I'm doing this for reasons of conviction and not to be a bad sport. Thanks for your consideration and comments. Struct 21:45, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Motion 3 There should be more definitions for abortion, the killing f an unborn fetus is not the only thing that abortion means. \/\/@||@(3 05:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The thing I added is not a real disclaimer (I don't think that wikipedia needs something like that) but a warning. As it is subject to frequent edits by not-so-informed editors, the information contained in Wikipedia can be misleading. (for other reasons please see the template's talk page). I would appreciate if someone suggested some better wording, because this doesn't actually fit "abortion". ackoz 10:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I have never seen the disclaimers you mentioned in Template_talk:HealthDisclaimer before. And I have been using Wikipedia for quite some time now (not editing tho). What is your reason for removing the templates? I suppose not everybody knows what wikipedia is (and that it can be edited by anyone), and you should suppose not everybody is that smart to check - most people just read something and if it sounds scientific (or if they LIKE it), they will believe it. Visible warnings/disclaimers should be placed on every page about health or healthcare, like every other serious webpages concerning health and healthcare. ackoz 20:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I discovered Ethical aspects of abortion today and saw a ton of gramatical errors. I think there are also bigger issues, but was hoping editors on this page could give it some of their attention (seeing how things have slowed down here). -- Andrew c 02:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Great work on the new introduction! Now that it's done, though, it's time to return to that which still remains to be addressed. Thus, I think we should pick a goal from the to-do list, and roll up our sleeves. :)
Also, due to the concerns raised over the placement of the Jizo statues photo, I've prepared a chart from selected data in the study " Reasons Why Women Have Induced Abortions: Evidence from 27 Countries" to fill the empty Incidence section. It's way too wide, I know, but give me your opinion nonetheless. - Severa ( !!!) 09:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Is this chart acceptable for addition into the main article, then? - Severa ( !!!) 03:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Just to let you guys know, the United States article is on featured article candidates list, so you can cast your vote there- or not.-- Ryz05 19:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Could someone help with adding a new reference to a recently published study on the mental health consequences of abortion?
Here is the reference: Fergusson, D.M., Horwood, L.J., & Ridder, E.M. (2006). Abortion in young women and subsequent mental health. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 47(1), 16-24.
This is an important study because it is longitudinal rather than cross-sectional in design, and also because they statistically controlled for confounding variables, such as prior mental health and demographic characteristics (e.g. socioeconomic status).
This study was conducted in New Zealand as part of the Christchurch Health and Development Study, which has been studying a New Zealand cohort since birth. The study has spanned 25 years. They examined women between the ages of 15 and 25, and found that 14.6% had had an abortion. After controlling for confounding variables, they found that these women who had had an abortion had increased levels of subsequent mental health problems, including depression, anxiety, suicidal behaviors, and substance use disorders. These mental health consequences only appeared after the abortion and, given the control of confounding variables in the analysis, this finding strongly suggest that these mental health problems were caused by the abortion and/or events surrounding the abortion.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brobbins ( talk • contribs).
Hm, I though I added some time ago that the first modern case of abortion legalisation was in the Soviet Union. What happened to that? All that remains is an article emphasising that abortion has always been around (and conveniently ommitting that abortion has also always been controversial, and usually illegal.) I suppose I have to dig though the logs for an explanation... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vintermann ( talk • contribs) 11:35, 12 May 2006
Not redundant. Google links haevily to wikipedia now, and directly to the articles. Average uneducated internet user only sees the article and doesn't really know how things work here PLUS the disclaimer at the bottom is insufficient with regard to the fact, that in some articles, latent nonsense / politically biased / extremist information (how many times do I have to repeat that until you get it, John Seigenthaler, John Seigenthaler, John Seigenthaler, John Seigenthaler, enough??) can be entered and go unnoticed for months. For instance in the case I mentioned above. If most of wikipedians think that "it's clear to everyone that they should check the edit history and then decide if they trust the article", most of wikipedians are extremely short-sighted. ackoz 22:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't really know what you mean by "should already know". Quite impressive that you think that a user who hardly ever heard of wikipedia before "should already know" about how things work here when he comes sraight from google to the article. ackoz 22:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Template:ControversialArticle has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Roy Boy 800 23:40, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
There are some changes in Abortion in Canada that might interest editors of this article. Al 23:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The more things change, the more things stay the same. The edit-war continues. Al 06:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Please direct all future inquiries regarding the first paragraph of this article to Talk:Abortion/First paragraph. Any such posts made here, on the main talk page, will be moved. If you are looking for a thread which has "disappeared," check there. - Severa ( !!!) 20:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
acording to miscarriage article: Miscarriages occur more often than most people think. About 25% of women will experience one in their lives. Up to 78% of all conceptions may fail [1], in most cases before the woman even knows she is pregnant.
according to the abortion article it's 10%-50% not 78%(78 let you assume great acuracy in the number,the tow together asumes 10-78% fork,frankly i can do bater than that in my kichen) and it don't say "before the woman even knows she is pregnant".
which number is corect,i know that the real number is huge,and it'would be nice to add up the before women nolege prase(it gives the impression that some how abortion it's trivia,from natures perspective).78% of all conceptions that fail,if you concidering that you have a soul from the first second of conseption .... it's realy not negligable.i mean it's important for the debate on abortion.--
Ruber chiken
22:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure why there isn't at least a small section about father's rights (concering abortion) under social issues. It is valid and it presents another angle about the issue. Might someone add it? (I'm not entirely sure that anyone would like my version even if I do attempt NPOV.) Chooserr 06:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I found an interesting article in today's news. It may be worth pointing out on one of wikipedia's many birth-control related pages...
The "rhythm method" relies on abstinence during the most fertile period of a woman's menstrual cycle. For women who have regular 28-day cycles, that occurs around days 10 to 17 of the cycle.
It's believed the method works by preventing conception from occurring. But Professor Luc Bovens of the London School of Economics says it may owe much of its success to the fact that embryos conceived on the fringes of the fertile period are less viable than those conceived toward the middle.
- Quasipalm 14:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Editors of this article may be interested in the events on pro-choice. Al 19:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Fuse? Al 23:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is on the precipice of an edit war. Additional user input might be helpful. - Severa ( !!!) 03:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes. BTW, check the history to see who started reverting and the discussion page to see what has transpired. The article does need input from a variety of users. It has suffered from severe bias in the past and it still needs more work. I plan to help make it a better article and encourage more others to do so too. Darrowby 12:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The section on UK law is not correct. Two doctors do not need to agree that an abortion is socially necessary, they simply need to agree that continuation of the pregnancy will entail greater risk than an abortion. Given that (almost always), this is the case, this is defacto abortion on demand, though with the caveat that the law does not oblige the state to perform that abortion. There are no practical legal limits on abortion before 24 weeks in the UK. Ros Power 20:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. The key quote is that the law requires the doctors to certify that "continuing with the pregnancy involves a greater risk to the physical or mental health of the woman, or her existing children, than having a termination". As Ros pointed out, abortion in the first trimester and well into the second one is almost always safer than carrying a pregnancy to term, so this is no barrier. On the other hand, as the article points out, some doctors are obstructionist about this, and getting two doctors to agree is a pain. Al 22:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The precise wording is, in fact, "medically or socially necessary." The majority of sources support that, in the U.K., two doctors must approve of an abortion before it is performed:
- Severa ( !!!) 01:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I do think this is misleading and needs to change. It suggests that there is at least a nominal, cursory, legal protection of the unborn child in the UK. This is simply fallacious - there simply is none. All that the two doctors have to state is that the abortion will cause less harm (to the mother only, obviously), than continuing pregnancy. Ros Power 04:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
No mention of the Hippocratic Oath that all doctors take before qualifying which prohibits them from killing unborn children. This seems like an ommission from the article. Ros Power 05:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
(Reset indent) The part of the Hippocratic oath which relates to abortion, "Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion," is open to interpretation as either a sweeping ban on all forms of abortion or merely those induced by pessary. As noted at History of abortion, Hippocrates recommended a questionable method for inducing abortion — jumping up and down — to a woman on one occasion, and also gave an account of performing a surgical procedure in documents attributed to him. I think these are facts which would be worth mentioning if we were to discuss the Hippocratic Oath in such a context. - Severa ( !!!) 18:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 |
Motion 1: I move that all "death in first paragraph" material on this page be moved to Talk:Abortion/First_paragraph.
Motion 2: I move that "death" in paragraph one be tagged { { Dubious } } as an interim solution to prevent edit war without end.
Even though I feel strongly about both of these motions, I also feel strongly about giving civil discourse a chance. I will not act on either of these proposals without community consensus. Please comment. Struct 03:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I was bold and did Motion 1. So if you are looking for a recent DEATH discussion, please visit the talk subpage!-- Andrew c 04:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Looks like Motion 1 is a fait accompli. Kinda wish you'd waited, Andrew, but not a big deal. Anyone have any strong objections?
As for Motion 2, I count 5-2 against. It looks like some of the objections are to the form of the tag rather than the form of the sentence. Upon reflection, I agree that it's the wrong tag, I'm withdrawing my motion, and I'm submitting this one in its place:
Revised Motion 2: I move that paragraph 1 be tagged { {POV-section} } as an interim solution. Tags may not prevent edit wars, but this one could at least delay one. Struct 02:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and KC, the fact of the death is very much disputed, given that something that never lived cannot die. I will not cede that life begins at conception, that is not a scientifically established fact, anti-choice dogma to the contrary. Defining the cessation of viable cellular function as "death" is way too problematic. Otherwise, one could argue that women who ovulate and then menstruate are complicit in the "death" of their ova... or worse: that men who masturbate commit genocide! Struct 02:21, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
One last item before I yield the floor: as an alternative, I move that "death" be changed to "destruction". Struct 02:23, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Just a random outside opinion: would "removal" of the embryo/fetus make more sense than death or destruction? Both latter terms have rather negative connotations and make a presumption that medical science has yet to support. .:. Jareth.:. babelfish 02:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
(indent reset)
I would argue that it isn't our preview to write in such a way as to assume the manner in which our information is to be used. We aren't writing an informed consent pamphlet, as Ackoz seemed to imply, but rather an encyclopaedia. We provide information, in as NPOV a format as possible, and let the reader determine its applicability to their needs. - Severa ( !!!) 03:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
It seems clear to me at this point that the community is deeply commited to the word "death" and that my proposal to change that word is not going to gain any traction. I respect the WM process, therefore I'm going to withdraw my motions to change the opening sentence.
However, I'm also deeply appalled by that word's (in my opinion) inaccurate and inflammatory misusage. I cannot in good conscience participate in this discussion or contribute to this article so long as a deeply entrenched (as I see it) non-neutral perspective remains, and I hope y'all will respect that in return. I'm removing this article from my watchlist and considering it a non-neutral, unreliable and inaccurate source. I hope you'll take my word for it that I'm doing this for reasons of conviction and not to be a bad sport. Thanks for your consideration and comments. Struct 21:45, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Motion 3 There should be more definitions for abortion, the killing f an unborn fetus is not the only thing that abortion means. \/\/@||@(3 05:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The thing I added is not a real disclaimer (I don't think that wikipedia needs something like that) but a warning. As it is subject to frequent edits by not-so-informed editors, the information contained in Wikipedia can be misleading. (for other reasons please see the template's talk page). I would appreciate if someone suggested some better wording, because this doesn't actually fit "abortion". ackoz 10:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I have never seen the disclaimers you mentioned in Template_talk:HealthDisclaimer before. And I have been using Wikipedia for quite some time now (not editing tho). What is your reason for removing the templates? I suppose not everybody knows what wikipedia is (and that it can be edited by anyone), and you should suppose not everybody is that smart to check - most people just read something and if it sounds scientific (or if they LIKE it), they will believe it. Visible warnings/disclaimers should be placed on every page about health or healthcare, like every other serious webpages concerning health and healthcare. ackoz 20:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I discovered Ethical aspects of abortion today and saw a ton of gramatical errors. I think there are also bigger issues, but was hoping editors on this page could give it some of their attention (seeing how things have slowed down here). -- Andrew c 02:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Great work on the new introduction! Now that it's done, though, it's time to return to that which still remains to be addressed. Thus, I think we should pick a goal from the to-do list, and roll up our sleeves. :)
Also, due to the concerns raised over the placement of the Jizo statues photo, I've prepared a chart from selected data in the study " Reasons Why Women Have Induced Abortions: Evidence from 27 Countries" to fill the empty Incidence section. It's way too wide, I know, but give me your opinion nonetheless. - Severa ( !!!) 09:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Is this chart acceptable for addition into the main article, then? - Severa ( !!!) 03:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Just to let you guys know, the United States article is on featured article candidates list, so you can cast your vote there- or not.-- Ryz05 19:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Could someone help with adding a new reference to a recently published study on the mental health consequences of abortion?
Here is the reference: Fergusson, D.M., Horwood, L.J., & Ridder, E.M. (2006). Abortion in young women and subsequent mental health. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 47(1), 16-24.
This is an important study because it is longitudinal rather than cross-sectional in design, and also because they statistically controlled for confounding variables, such as prior mental health and demographic characteristics (e.g. socioeconomic status).
This study was conducted in New Zealand as part of the Christchurch Health and Development Study, which has been studying a New Zealand cohort since birth. The study has spanned 25 years. They examined women between the ages of 15 and 25, and found that 14.6% had had an abortion. After controlling for confounding variables, they found that these women who had had an abortion had increased levels of subsequent mental health problems, including depression, anxiety, suicidal behaviors, and substance use disorders. These mental health consequences only appeared after the abortion and, given the control of confounding variables in the analysis, this finding strongly suggest that these mental health problems were caused by the abortion and/or events surrounding the abortion.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brobbins ( talk • contribs).
Hm, I though I added some time ago that the first modern case of abortion legalisation was in the Soviet Union. What happened to that? All that remains is an article emphasising that abortion has always been around (and conveniently ommitting that abortion has also always been controversial, and usually illegal.) I suppose I have to dig though the logs for an explanation... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vintermann ( talk • contribs) 11:35, 12 May 2006
Not redundant. Google links haevily to wikipedia now, and directly to the articles. Average uneducated internet user only sees the article and doesn't really know how things work here PLUS the disclaimer at the bottom is insufficient with regard to the fact, that in some articles, latent nonsense / politically biased / extremist information (how many times do I have to repeat that until you get it, John Seigenthaler, John Seigenthaler, John Seigenthaler, John Seigenthaler, enough??) can be entered and go unnoticed for months. For instance in the case I mentioned above. If most of wikipedians think that "it's clear to everyone that they should check the edit history and then decide if they trust the article", most of wikipedians are extremely short-sighted. ackoz 22:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't really know what you mean by "should already know". Quite impressive that you think that a user who hardly ever heard of wikipedia before "should already know" about how things work here when he comes sraight from google to the article. ackoz 22:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Template:ControversialArticle has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Roy Boy 800 23:40, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
There are some changes in Abortion in Canada that might interest editors of this article. Al 23:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The more things change, the more things stay the same. The edit-war continues. Al 06:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Please direct all future inquiries regarding the first paragraph of this article to Talk:Abortion/First paragraph. Any such posts made here, on the main talk page, will be moved. If you are looking for a thread which has "disappeared," check there. - Severa ( !!!) 20:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
acording to miscarriage article: Miscarriages occur more often than most people think. About 25% of women will experience one in their lives. Up to 78% of all conceptions may fail [1], in most cases before the woman even knows she is pregnant.
according to the abortion article it's 10%-50% not 78%(78 let you assume great acuracy in the number,the tow together asumes 10-78% fork,frankly i can do bater than that in my kichen) and it don't say "before the woman even knows she is pregnant".
which number is corect,i know that the real number is huge,and it'would be nice to add up the before women nolege prase(it gives the impression that some how abortion it's trivia,from natures perspective).78% of all conceptions that fail,if you concidering that you have a soul from the first second of conseption .... it's realy not negligable.i mean it's important for the debate on abortion.--
Ruber chiken
22:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure why there isn't at least a small section about father's rights (concering abortion) under social issues. It is valid and it presents another angle about the issue. Might someone add it? (I'm not entirely sure that anyone would like my version even if I do attempt NPOV.) Chooserr 06:19, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I found an interesting article in today's news. It may be worth pointing out on one of wikipedia's many birth-control related pages...
The "rhythm method" relies on abstinence during the most fertile period of a woman's menstrual cycle. For women who have regular 28-day cycles, that occurs around days 10 to 17 of the cycle.
It's believed the method works by preventing conception from occurring. But Professor Luc Bovens of the London School of Economics says it may owe much of its success to the fact that embryos conceived on the fringes of the fertile period are less viable than those conceived toward the middle.
- Quasipalm 14:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Editors of this article may be interested in the events on pro-choice. Al 19:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Fuse? Al 23:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is on the precipice of an edit war. Additional user input might be helpful. - Severa ( !!!) 03:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes. BTW, check the history to see who started reverting and the discussion page to see what has transpired. The article does need input from a variety of users. It has suffered from severe bias in the past and it still needs more work. I plan to help make it a better article and encourage more others to do so too. Darrowby 12:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The section on UK law is not correct. Two doctors do not need to agree that an abortion is socially necessary, they simply need to agree that continuation of the pregnancy will entail greater risk than an abortion. Given that (almost always), this is the case, this is defacto abortion on demand, though with the caveat that the law does not oblige the state to perform that abortion. There are no practical legal limits on abortion before 24 weeks in the UK. Ros Power 20:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. The key quote is that the law requires the doctors to certify that "continuing with the pregnancy involves a greater risk to the physical or mental health of the woman, or her existing children, than having a termination". As Ros pointed out, abortion in the first trimester and well into the second one is almost always safer than carrying a pregnancy to term, so this is no barrier. On the other hand, as the article points out, some doctors are obstructionist about this, and getting two doctors to agree is a pain. Al 22:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The precise wording is, in fact, "medically or socially necessary." The majority of sources support that, in the U.K., two doctors must approve of an abortion before it is performed:
- Severa ( !!!) 01:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I do think this is misleading and needs to change. It suggests that there is at least a nominal, cursory, legal protection of the unborn child in the UK. This is simply fallacious - there simply is none. All that the two doctors have to state is that the abortion will cause less harm (to the mother only, obviously), than continuing pregnancy. Ros Power 04:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
No mention of the Hippocratic Oath that all doctors take before qualifying which prohibits them from killing unborn children. This seems like an ommission from the article. Ros Power 05:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
(Reset indent) The part of the Hippocratic oath which relates to abortion, "Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion," is open to interpretation as either a sweeping ban on all forms of abortion or merely those induced by pessary. As noted at History of abortion, Hippocrates recommended a questionable method for inducing abortion — jumping up and down — to a woman on one occasion, and also gave an account of performing a surgical procedure in documents attributed to him. I think these are facts which would be worth mentioning if we were to discuss the Hippocratic Oath in such a context. - Severa ( !!!) 18:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)