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Prose problems are down below. After they are all fixed and the discussion on them has finished, I'll re-read and decide if it passes then. It passes most of the MoS. The only problem is fiction and jargon. The problem is some non-fans will wonder if wrestling is fake, real, etc still. A small explanation, not big, just a simple to the pint one in Early life, should slove this problem. State that there are writers, characters are what they are just characters, wrestler use stage names, etc.--
WillC19:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)reply
I will begin the review later today. This may take a while considering when I review I go deeply in depth to make sure it passes the criteria to the letter.--
WillC07:47, 12 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Note: The "to the letter" comment concerns me. I will assume good faith, though, and trust that this review is not being done out of revenge because the nominator failed one of your GA nominees yesterday.
GaryColemanFan (
talk)
07:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)reply
AGF and all, it's all good in the hood I'm sure :) and hey a really in depth review helps prepare it for Featured Article one day so I welcome all the input you've got.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
08:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Gary it is all cool. I want to get a reputation for in depth and tough reviews. I was planning to review this even before the TNA Title was failed. See
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Oklahoma City bombing/archive1 to see what type of reviews I like to give. I'm just trying to make sure we have the best articles possible. This review will probably last for a good week or so.--
WillC10:57, 12 July 2009 (UTC)reply
But chronologically is actually helpful, as you go down you follow his career progression. Alphabetically just lists the names yes but nothing else, with a chronological order it adds something more to it.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
05:14, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
I can see and agree with that thought, just the only problem is users will not know they are chronological.
And like above I think more is gained by listing them in the order they trained him.
Can you give a more precise date for his debut? Plus I would add in the retired parameter. He is dead so technically that is retirement. Probably a given but I'm just now thinking of all the best ways improve this article.
SOrry haven't found a more specific date. He was not retired, it's not added to info boxes who died before retirement to make it clear that he was still active at the time of his death.
Alright.
Lead text
"Andrés Alejandro Palomeque González (July 1, 1971 – March 22, 2009) was a Mexican Luchador (masked professional wrestler)." The "Mexican Luchador (masked professional wrestler)." part I don't like that much. I'm willing to let it slide since I can't think of a better way to show what a Luchador is, though a thought would be to just remove it entirely and mention what a Luchador is later on in his career section. The lead is just an overview of the article and Luchador is borderline needing explanation, only because of language barrier and the differences in Mexican and American culture. Now I have a question, since there is only one image I'm not sure if he wore a mask throughout his career, but I recall that one of his characters did not wear a mask. So this statement is true yet untrue. Since how can he be a masked wrestler if at one point he did not wear a mask. I say remove the explanation, and in the "Early life" or "Professional wrestling career" sections explain the Luchador part without saying everyone wears masks, just state some.
it's not an explanation, it's a translation, I will add "Spanish for". And while he did work unmasked at some point, he was a masked wrestler when he died - we don't refer to people as "high school students" if they weren't high school students at the time of their death. When he died he was an enmascarado.
When? Better to just remove it.
When what? and why remove it when that's what he was at the time of his death? Do you remove that Eddie Guerrero was a professional wrestler because at some point he wasn't?
Dumb question: "Asistencia Asesoría y Administración (AAA) promotion"; Is that Spanish? Because I've never been able to pronounce that name yet nor CMLL's.
Yes to something along the lines of "Asistance Attendance and Administration" and CMLL translates to "World Wrestling Council".
MPJ-DK (
talk)
05:14, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"Gimnasio Abismo Negro, where individuals were trained to become professional wrestlers." → "Gimnasio Abismo Negro, where individuals were trained to become professional wrestlers; a professional wrestling school." Rare case in which an explanation is needed in the lead. Nearly speaks for itself, but is better to be safe than sorry.
A semicolon can only be used if the clauses on both sides can stand on their own. "A professional wrestling school" isn't a complete sentence, so a semicolon doesn't work.
GaryColemanFan (
talk)
01:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
I found a better way to write it I think.
Yes, that will do fine. I must have not been paying attention when I wrote the semi-colon, though no telling since I suck at gammar anyway.
"biggest professional wrestling promotions in Mexico:" → "most prominent professional wrestling promotions in Mexico:" More professional IMO.
Fixed
Change "Asistencia Asesoría y Administración" to "AAA" since this is the second mention. Not really important. Thought to at least mention it.
Delio Soto and Don Soto are mentioned as his first trainers, but in the info box you have Don Soto's ring name instead. Why? Plus his ring name is not important TBH.
He works and trains as "El Noruego", so yes I have Don Soto listed in the lead under the name that he uses in Lucha Libre.
Okay
I made it even cleared in the infobox.
A problem I knew would come up and will be a problem in the FAC no doubt so best to fix it here. "Professional wrestling is a non-competitive sport based on simulated fighting with storylines written by creative teams and matches with predetermined results." which I said add is a problem. It should not be removed it should instead be re-written to make more sense and flow. With it just threw in there and seems to be out of place hurts the overall article. I feel the paragraph should instead be like this:
"Andrés Alejandro Palomeque González was born July 1, 1971 in
Villahermosa, Tabasco,
Mexico. Palomeque started to get interested in professional wrestling at the age of nine when his father, Juan Francisco Palomeque Torres, took him to his first wrestling event. Later the Palomeque Family moved to Poza Rica where a young Palomeque took up
Pentathlon (
long jump,
high jump, 110 metres
hurdles run,
shot put, 1500 metres run) in school. He and his brother, César Palomeque, had an interest in Martial Arts and trained together for years. When Palomeque was thirteen years old he began working in a gymnasium where professional wrestlers were trained, initially he paid for the use of the gymnasium by cleaning it after hours. When the family moved back to the Tabasco region he began training under Don Nerio Soto and his brother Delio Soto to become a luchador—the Spanish version of a professional wrestler. Luchadores compete in the Spanish term for professional wrestling
lucha libre, which, like American professional wrestling, is a non-competitive sport based on simulated fighting with storylines written by creative teams and matches with predetermined results; the majority of wrestlers wear masks in lucha libre. Don Soto later recollects how he and his family took the young man in and made him part of their family, practically adopting him while he was enrolled in Soto's wrestling school and later as he worked on the local
wrestling circuit. Palomeue made his professional wrestling debut in 1987, at the age of 16, under the ring name "Alex Dinamo"."--
WillC00:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Specifying that professional wrestling in Mexico is similar to American professional wrestling seems Amerocentric. "American" professional wrestling should not be considered the standard, so the term should just be "professional wrestling".
GaryColemanFan (
talk)
01:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Well considering this is the english pedia and this is a spanish subject I thought to add it. Plus some may think that only American wrestling is fake. At times I've thought that Japanense and Mexican wrestling were real, so if a fan like me is confused at times, a non-fan probably will be confused.--
WillC01:42, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Frankly I'm not really keen on that version, it makes the logical assumption that Lucha Libre and Pro wrestling are two different things, which it is not. "Delio Soto to become a luchador, or professional wrestler. Professional wrestlers perform in in a non-competitive sport based on simulated fighting with storylines written by creative teams and matches with predetermined results" - Simpler, "country neutral" and does not make a major distinction between wrestling in the US and in Mexico beause it shouldn't, same basics - just a few different traditions, but not enough to imply that it's a different sport.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
04:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"This time, Winners was defeated by Super Caló and was forced to unmask. This time, Winners was not successful, as he lost to Super Caló and was forced to unmask.[8][12]" I sense redundancy.
"The loss of the mask did not hurt Winners' popularity, on the contrary it intensified as the hansome Palomeque became even more popular with the female fans." Source for this statement? Otherwise remove it.--
WillC08:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"In January 1997, Palomeque's character was changed from that of the quintessential heroic ladies' man known as "Winners", to that of a cheating villain (referred to as a Rudo) known as "Abismo Negro"." Add a ref for the date and character change.
"As part of his Rudo act Palomeque began using the Marinete (a wrestling move known as a Piledriver where he simulates driving the top of his opponents' head into the mat), the Marinete is "banned" Mexican wrestling, which means that it can lead to a disqualification if used during the match." Is it actually banned? Instead of paraenthesis, use dashes. You may have guessed, I like dashes. They seem to work better IMO.
Yes I'm aware of your love of dashes ;) and yes it is banned, if a referee sees you perform a piledriver it's an automatic disqualification.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
22:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"Not long after Los Vipers reunited, Cibernético formed a group called Lucha Libre Latina (LLL), a group intent on taking over AAA that was inspired by World Championship Wrestling's New World Order." Ref for creation and for inspiration. The source for creation is not really needed since you talk about it later on, but does not hurt.
"Los Vipers became a subgroup within LLL, and Negro assumed leadership of the group" to "Los Vipers became a subgroup within LLL, and Negro assumed leadership of the party" Seems repetitive the other way.
"In 2000, Palomeque participated in a AAA tour of Japan and competed at TripleMania VIII, where Los Vipers were one of the four teams in a Four Corners Elimination match; Los Vipers were defeated by Perro Aguayo, Jr., El Alebrije and Path Finder." It says it was a "four team" elimination match. I see two teams, and only one mentions the members. Please fix this. Now that I think about it after looking at the results, this note is not important. It is about Los Vipers. Sure he was the captain at the time, but their match is noted while Negro was featured in the main event. That is by far more notable and significant to "his" career than a match that did not involve him.
I put the main event in instead, I must have been a bit liberal when copying part of the Los Vipers joint history.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
22:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"In 2000 Abismo Negro won the hair of the Panther in Lucha del reves match, which is a match where two masked wrestlers put their hair on the line instead of their mask." Source? Also rewrite it too "In 2000 Abismo Negro defeated the Panther in a Lucha del reves match, which is a contest where two masked wrestlers put their hair on the line instead of their mask." Makes better sense and flows this way. To be honest I put a WTF! face on once I got finished reading it.
PFFFF it doen't say "LOL", it's more professional than 90% of the wrestling articles ;) just kidding. And source is easy since it's sourced in the Apuestas table.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
22:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"On September 7, 2001 Abismo Negro won another Lucha del reves match and claimed the hair of masked wrestler El Alebrije." Is the hair a thorpy? Do they make a necklace out it? LOL You have to admit that was a great smartass comment. Anyway back to business. "claimed the hair" makes me want to do a faceplam. Not to be rude or anything I have enjoyed reading about Negro and this is an interesting article, but it just does not read professional. Change that statement to "On September 7, 2001, Negro won another Lucha del reves match, this time by defeating El Alebrije." Work with that if you wish.--
WillC13:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
In a way it actually is a trophy, an achievement on the level of winning a championship or the mask of an opponent. I'll fix it though.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
16:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Total Nonstop Action Wrestling
"Four weeks later Team AAA successfully defended the X Cup against Team Canada, helped by Abismo Negro and Juventud Guerrera defeating the team of Teddy Hart and Jack Evans." → "Four weeks later Team AAA successfully defended the X Cup against Team Canada, when Abismo Negro and Juventud Guerrera defeated the team of Teddy Hart and Jack Evans." Reads a bit better. You can also change when to "after" if you wish.
No, not how the tournament works. It says they sucessfully defended the Cup a month later. Is match the one the cup was defended in?
Erm have you not seen X cups? Team AAA had four members they wrestled in a variety of matches earning points, most points win - Negro & Guerrera could not have defended the tournament if they were the only ones to score a point. It's not an "elimination tournament" after all.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
16:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
I have, TNA held one last year. But the article says they defended the Cup. In what match was the Cup defended?--
WillC22:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
No no no. I know how the tournament works. Look at the
TNA 2008 World X Cup Tournament, I wrote most of that so I understand the rules. I'm speaking of this statement "Four weeks later Team AAA successfully defended the X Cup against Team Canada, helped by Abismo Negro and Juventud Guerrera defeating the team of Teddy Hart and Jack Evans." It suggest that the tournament is over and Team Mexico returned to defend the America's X Cup in a rematch against Team Canada. In what match was the Cup defended?--
WillC01:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
And I'm getting tired of the repetitiveness of this part - they did not have ONE match, they faced Team Canada in several matches, each member faced a member of Team Canada, Negro & Guerrera in tag, the other two in singles as I've mentioned a couple of times now, the team win helped Team AAA defend, but it was not enough on it's own to win.
MPJ-DK (No Drama Wrestling) Talk 02:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Alright, then explain the other matches involved. So the statement does not confuse future readers like it did with me.--
WillC02:51, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"Abismo Negro remained undefeated until April 7, 2004 where" Him being undefeated is not that important since it wasn't a big deal at the time I believe nor is it mentioned earlier. You should probably remove it. Also change "where" to "when".--
WillC13:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"Abismo Negro won the hair of Stucka, Jr. again in a Lucha del reves match" → "Abismo Negro defeated Stucka, Jr. in a Lucha del reves match"--
WillC13:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"Negro with his own trademark move the "Martinete" (Tombstone piledriver)." Remove the Tombstone piledriver part, since now I see it is mentioned earlier.
Section seems fine. The only thing that may be useful, for various reasons, is the date the AAA game is to be released, if it is known.--
WillC13:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"His body was found in the river in the town of El Rosario, Sinaloa." Lead says near, this says in. Change it to "His body was found in a river near the town of El Rosario, Sinaloa."
"7 man Royal Rumble-style match and included a mix of five AAA veterans and two Abismo Negro students." Royal Rumble is a WWE-equse thing. Change to battle royal: "7 man battle royal, which included a mix of five AAA veterans and two Abismo Negro students."--
WillC13:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Except it wasn't a battle royal, it was a Royal Rumble-style match where a new competitor entered every couple of minutes. So while it's "WWE-esque" I don't know a different term for a battle royal with timed entrants instead of everyone starting in the ring at the same time.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
16:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Well as you know, there are different types of battle royals. Some have time intervals, some don't. A gauntlet match is probably the best term for this. TNA has a
Gauntlet for the Gold battle royal, which is exactly like a Royal Rumble match, but the only difference is it ends in a pin instead.--
WillC22:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
So you're okay with using a TNA Term instead of a WWE Term? If either term is okay why not use the one that's most correct??
No, I'm saying use Gauntlet match instead. The TNA match was to show the simularity. Add "7 man gauntlet match, which included a mix of five AAA veterans and two Abismo Negro students."--
WillC01:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Since this review has gotten so long and the page is so big, I'm going to FAC it. Remove some of the information and give a link like they do in FACs. Unless you have a problem with it?--
WillC14:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
erm what? You're going to list it as a Feature Article Candidate? I don't follow here??
This page is 96 kilobytes long, so I'm going to remove all the text in the table above. Then I'll link to the verison of the article that exist at the time before removal at the top of the article. It is done in FACs when the pages are too long or the FAC is restarted.--
WillC15:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
ALright I've addressed it all, can I just comment on one thing? You, like most WP:PW writers have this "collective inferiority complex" going in regards to sources, you tend to go overboard with what should be cited in an effort to make it look extra good. The rules on sources state "for contentious material", where as your review and loads of comments from WP:PW members seem to be "source every little statement no matter what". Now I got sources, I got the info somewhere after all and I've added them but I would like to point out that you may be on the verge of going a tad overboard — and no I don't have a source for that ;)
MPJ-DK (
talk)
22:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
The sourcing thing is mainly a priority for FA. Since you said something about that I just thoughth to be hard on the article. I was already going to be hard, but the source statement thing is a bitch at FAC to be honest. As you can see from my recent problems with sourcing.--
WillC23:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Okay, well before you do, I would try to find a better ref for all the TripleMania's still. Primary may be the only way to go. I know you've looked, but thought to mention it again for future endevors.--
WillC22:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
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Abismo Negro is within the scope of WikiProject Professional wrestling, an attempt to improve and standardize articles related to
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Prose problems are down below. After they are all fixed and the discussion on them has finished, I'll re-read and decide if it passes then. It passes most of the MoS. The only problem is fiction and jargon. The problem is some non-fans will wonder if wrestling is fake, real, etc still. A small explanation, not big, just a simple to the pint one in Early life, should slove this problem. State that there are writers, characters are what they are just characters, wrestler use stage names, etc.--
WillC19:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)reply
I will begin the review later today. This may take a while considering when I review I go deeply in depth to make sure it passes the criteria to the letter.--
WillC07:47, 12 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Note: The "to the letter" comment concerns me. I will assume good faith, though, and trust that this review is not being done out of revenge because the nominator failed one of your GA nominees yesterday.
GaryColemanFan (
talk)
07:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)reply
AGF and all, it's all good in the hood I'm sure :) and hey a really in depth review helps prepare it for Featured Article one day so I welcome all the input you've got.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
08:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Gary it is all cool. I want to get a reputation for in depth and tough reviews. I was planning to review this even before the TNA Title was failed. See
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Oklahoma City bombing/archive1 to see what type of reviews I like to give. I'm just trying to make sure we have the best articles possible. This review will probably last for a good week or so.--
WillC10:57, 12 July 2009 (UTC)reply
But chronologically is actually helpful, as you go down you follow his career progression. Alphabetically just lists the names yes but nothing else, with a chronological order it adds something more to it.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
05:14, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
I can see and agree with that thought, just the only problem is users will not know they are chronological.
And like above I think more is gained by listing them in the order they trained him.
Can you give a more precise date for his debut? Plus I would add in the retired parameter. He is dead so technically that is retirement. Probably a given but I'm just now thinking of all the best ways improve this article.
SOrry haven't found a more specific date. He was not retired, it's not added to info boxes who died before retirement to make it clear that he was still active at the time of his death.
Alright.
Lead text
"Andrés Alejandro Palomeque González (July 1, 1971 – March 22, 2009) was a Mexican Luchador (masked professional wrestler)." The "Mexican Luchador (masked professional wrestler)." part I don't like that much. I'm willing to let it slide since I can't think of a better way to show what a Luchador is, though a thought would be to just remove it entirely and mention what a Luchador is later on in his career section. The lead is just an overview of the article and Luchador is borderline needing explanation, only because of language barrier and the differences in Mexican and American culture. Now I have a question, since there is only one image I'm not sure if he wore a mask throughout his career, but I recall that one of his characters did not wear a mask. So this statement is true yet untrue. Since how can he be a masked wrestler if at one point he did not wear a mask. I say remove the explanation, and in the "Early life" or "Professional wrestling career" sections explain the Luchador part without saying everyone wears masks, just state some.
it's not an explanation, it's a translation, I will add "Spanish for". And while he did work unmasked at some point, he was a masked wrestler when he died - we don't refer to people as "high school students" if they weren't high school students at the time of their death. When he died he was an enmascarado.
When? Better to just remove it.
When what? and why remove it when that's what he was at the time of his death? Do you remove that Eddie Guerrero was a professional wrestler because at some point he wasn't?
Dumb question: "Asistencia Asesoría y Administración (AAA) promotion"; Is that Spanish? Because I've never been able to pronounce that name yet nor CMLL's.
Yes to something along the lines of "Asistance Attendance and Administration" and CMLL translates to "World Wrestling Council".
MPJ-DK (
talk)
05:14, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"Gimnasio Abismo Negro, where individuals were trained to become professional wrestlers." → "Gimnasio Abismo Negro, where individuals were trained to become professional wrestlers; a professional wrestling school." Rare case in which an explanation is needed in the lead. Nearly speaks for itself, but is better to be safe than sorry.
A semicolon can only be used if the clauses on both sides can stand on their own. "A professional wrestling school" isn't a complete sentence, so a semicolon doesn't work.
GaryColemanFan (
talk)
01:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
I found a better way to write it I think.
Yes, that will do fine. I must have not been paying attention when I wrote the semi-colon, though no telling since I suck at gammar anyway.
"biggest professional wrestling promotions in Mexico:" → "most prominent professional wrestling promotions in Mexico:" More professional IMO.
Fixed
Change "Asistencia Asesoría y Administración" to "AAA" since this is the second mention. Not really important. Thought to at least mention it.
Delio Soto and Don Soto are mentioned as his first trainers, but in the info box you have Don Soto's ring name instead. Why? Plus his ring name is not important TBH.
He works and trains as "El Noruego", so yes I have Don Soto listed in the lead under the name that he uses in Lucha Libre.
Okay
I made it even cleared in the infobox.
A problem I knew would come up and will be a problem in the FAC no doubt so best to fix it here. "Professional wrestling is a non-competitive sport based on simulated fighting with storylines written by creative teams and matches with predetermined results." which I said add is a problem. It should not be removed it should instead be re-written to make more sense and flow. With it just threw in there and seems to be out of place hurts the overall article. I feel the paragraph should instead be like this:
"Andrés Alejandro Palomeque González was born July 1, 1971 in
Villahermosa, Tabasco,
Mexico. Palomeque started to get interested in professional wrestling at the age of nine when his father, Juan Francisco Palomeque Torres, took him to his first wrestling event. Later the Palomeque Family moved to Poza Rica where a young Palomeque took up
Pentathlon (
long jump,
high jump, 110 metres
hurdles run,
shot put, 1500 metres run) in school. He and his brother, César Palomeque, had an interest in Martial Arts and trained together for years. When Palomeque was thirteen years old he began working in a gymnasium where professional wrestlers were trained, initially he paid for the use of the gymnasium by cleaning it after hours. When the family moved back to the Tabasco region he began training under Don Nerio Soto and his brother Delio Soto to become a luchador—the Spanish version of a professional wrestler. Luchadores compete in the Spanish term for professional wrestling
lucha libre, which, like American professional wrestling, is a non-competitive sport based on simulated fighting with storylines written by creative teams and matches with predetermined results; the majority of wrestlers wear masks in lucha libre. Don Soto later recollects how he and his family took the young man in and made him part of their family, practically adopting him while he was enrolled in Soto's wrestling school and later as he worked on the local
wrestling circuit. Palomeue made his professional wrestling debut in 1987, at the age of 16, under the ring name "Alex Dinamo"."--
WillC00:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Specifying that professional wrestling in Mexico is similar to American professional wrestling seems Amerocentric. "American" professional wrestling should not be considered the standard, so the term should just be "professional wrestling".
GaryColemanFan (
talk)
01:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Well considering this is the english pedia and this is a spanish subject I thought to add it. Plus some may think that only American wrestling is fake. At times I've thought that Japanense and Mexican wrestling were real, so if a fan like me is confused at times, a non-fan probably will be confused.--
WillC01:42, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Frankly I'm not really keen on that version, it makes the logical assumption that Lucha Libre and Pro wrestling are two different things, which it is not. "Delio Soto to become a luchador, or professional wrestler. Professional wrestlers perform in in a non-competitive sport based on simulated fighting with storylines written by creative teams and matches with predetermined results" - Simpler, "country neutral" and does not make a major distinction between wrestling in the US and in Mexico beause it shouldn't, same basics - just a few different traditions, but not enough to imply that it's a different sport.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
04:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"This time, Winners was defeated by Super Caló and was forced to unmask. This time, Winners was not successful, as he lost to Super Caló and was forced to unmask.[8][12]" I sense redundancy.
"The loss of the mask did not hurt Winners' popularity, on the contrary it intensified as the hansome Palomeque became even more popular with the female fans." Source for this statement? Otherwise remove it.--
WillC08:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"In January 1997, Palomeque's character was changed from that of the quintessential heroic ladies' man known as "Winners", to that of a cheating villain (referred to as a Rudo) known as "Abismo Negro"." Add a ref for the date and character change.
"As part of his Rudo act Palomeque began using the Marinete (a wrestling move known as a Piledriver where he simulates driving the top of his opponents' head into the mat), the Marinete is "banned" Mexican wrestling, which means that it can lead to a disqualification if used during the match." Is it actually banned? Instead of paraenthesis, use dashes. You may have guessed, I like dashes. They seem to work better IMO.
Yes I'm aware of your love of dashes ;) and yes it is banned, if a referee sees you perform a piledriver it's an automatic disqualification.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
22:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"Not long after Los Vipers reunited, Cibernético formed a group called Lucha Libre Latina (LLL), a group intent on taking over AAA that was inspired by World Championship Wrestling's New World Order." Ref for creation and for inspiration. The source for creation is not really needed since you talk about it later on, but does not hurt.
"Los Vipers became a subgroup within LLL, and Negro assumed leadership of the group" to "Los Vipers became a subgroup within LLL, and Negro assumed leadership of the party" Seems repetitive the other way.
"In 2000, Palomeque participated in a AAA tour of Japan and competed at TripleMania VIII, where Los Vipers were one of the four teams in a Four Corners Elimination match; Los Vipers were defeated by Perro Aguayo, Jr., El Alebrije and Path Finder." It says it was a "four team" elimination match. I see two teams, and only one mentions the members. Please fix this. Now that I think about it after looking at the results, this note is not important. It is about Los Vipers. Sure he was the captain at the time, but their match is noted while Negro was featured in the main event. That is by far more notable and significant to "his" career than a match that did not involve him.
I put the main event in instead, I must have been a bit liberal when copying part of the Los Vipers joint history.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
22:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"In 2000 Abismo Negro won the hair of the Panther in Lucha del reves match, which is a match where two masked wrestlers put their hair on the line instead of their mask." Source? Also rewrite it too "In 2000 Abismo Negro defeated the Panther in a Lucha del reves match, which is a contest where two masked wrestlers put their hair on the line instead of their mask." Makes better sense and flows this way. To be honest I put a WTF! face on once I got finished reading it.
PFFFF it doen't say "LOL", it's more professional than 90% of the wrestling articles ;) just kidding. And source is easy since it's sourced in the Apuestas table.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
22:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"On September 7, 2001 Abismo Negro won another Lucha del reves match and claimed the hair of masked wrestler El Alebrije." Is the hair a thorpy? Do they make a necklace out it? LOL You have to admit that was a great smartass comment. Anyway back to business. "claimed the hair" makes me want to do a faceplam. Not to be rude or anything I have enjoyed reading about Negro and this is an interesting article, but it just does not read professional. Change that statement to "On September 7, 2001, Negro won another Lucha del reves match, this time by defeating El Alebrije." Work with that if you wish.--
WillC13:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
In a way it actually is a trophy, an achievement on the level of winning a championship or the mask of an opponent. I'll fix it though.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
16:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Total Nonstop Action Wrestling
"Four weeks later Team AAA successfully defended the X Cup against Team Canada, helped by Abismo Negro and Juventud Guerrera defeating the team of Teddy Hart and Jack Evans." → "Four weeks later Team AAA successfully defended the X Cup against Team Canada, when Abismo Negro and Juventud Guerrera defeated the team of Teddy Hart and Jack Evans." Reads a bit better. You can also change when to "after" if you wish.
No, not how the tournament works. It says they sucessfully defended the Cup a month later. Is match the one the cup was defended in?
Erm have you not seen X cups? Team AAA had four members they wrestled in a variety of matches earning points, most points win - Negro & Guerrera could not have defended the tournament if they were the only ones to score a point. It's not an "elimination tournament" after all.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
16:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
I have, TNA held one last year. But the article says they defended the Cup. In what match was the Cup defended?--
WillC22:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
No no no. I know how the tournament works. Look at the
TNA 2008 World X Cup Tournament, I wrote most of that so I understand the rules. I'm speaking of this statement "Four weeks later Team AAA successfully defended the X Cup against Team Canada, helped by Abismo Negro and Juventud Guerrera defeating the team of Teddy Hart and Jack Evans." It suggest that the tournament is over and Team Mexico returned to defend the America's X Cup in a rematch against Team Canada. In what match was the Cup defended?--
WillC01:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
And I'm getting tired of the repetitiveness of this part - they did not have ONE match, they faced Team Canada in several matches, each member faced a member of Team Canada, Negro & Guerrera in tag, the other two in singles as I've mentioned a couple of times now, the team win helped Team AAA defend, but it was not enough on it's own to win.
MPJ-DK (No Drama Wrestling) Talk 02:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Alright, then explain the other matches involved. So the statement does not confuse future readers like it did with me.--
WillC02:51, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"Abismo Negro remained undefeated until April 7, 2004 where" Him being undefeated is not that important since it wasn't a big deal at the time I believe nor is it mentioned earlier. You should probably remove it. Also change "where" to "when".--
WillC13:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"Abismo Negro won the hair of Stucka, Jr. again in a Lucha del reves match" → "Abismo Negro defeated Stucka, Jr. in a Lucha del reves match"--
WillC13:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"Negro with his own trademark move the "Martinete" (Tombstone piledriver)." Remove the Tombstone piledriver part, since now I see it is mentioned earlier.
Section seems fine. The only thing that may be useful, for various reasons, is the date the AAA game is to be released, if it is known.--
WillC13:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
"His body was found in the river in the town of El Rosario, Sinaloa." Lead says near, this says in. Change it to "His body was found in a river near the town of El Rosario, Sinaloa."
"7 man Royal Rumble-style match and included a mix of five AAA veterans and two Abismo Negro students." Royal Rumble is a WWE-equse thing. Change to battle royal: "7 man battle royal, which included a mix of five AAA veterans and two Abismo Negro students."--
WillC13:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Except it wasn't a battle royal, it was a Royal Rumble-style match where a new competitor entered every couple of minutes. So while it's "WWE-esque" I don't know a different term for a battle royal with timed entrants instead of everyone starting in the ring at the same time.
MPJ-DK (
talk)
16:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Well as you know, there are different types of battle royals. Some have time intervals, some don't. A gauntlet match is probably the best term for this. TNA has a
Gauntlet for the Gold battle royal, which is exactly like a Royal Rumble match, but the only difference is it ends in a pin instead.--
WillC22:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
So you're okay with using a TNA Term instead of a WWE Term? If either term is okay why not use the one that's most correct??
No, I'm saying use Gauntlet match instead. The TNA match was to show the simularity. Add "7 man gauntlet match, which included a mix of five AAA veterans and two Abismo Negro students."--
WillC01:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Since this review has gotten so long and the page is so big, I'm going to FAC it. Remove some of the information and give a link like they do in FACs. Unless you have a problem with it?--
WillC14:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
erm what? You're going to list it as a Feature Article Candidate? I don't follow here??
This page is 96 kilobytes long, so I'm going to remove all the text in the table above. Then I'll link to the verison of the article that exist at the time before removal at the top of the article. It is done in FACs when the pages are too long or the FAC is restarted.--
WillC15:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
ALright I've addressed it all, can I just comment on one thing? You, like most WP:PW writers have this "collective inferiority complex" going in regards to sources, you tend to go overboard with what should be cited in an effort to make it look extra good. The rules on sources state "for contentious material", where as your review and loads of comments from WP:PW members seem to be "source every little statement no matter what". Now I got sources, I got the info somewhere after all and I've added them but I would like to point out that you may be on the verge of going a tad overboard — and no I don't have a source for that ;)
MPJ-DK (
talk)
22:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
The sourcing thing is mainly a priority for FA. Since you said something about that I just thoughth to be hard on the article. I was already going to be hard, but the source statement thing is a bitch at FAC to be honest. As you can see from my recent problems with sourcing.--
WillC23:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)reply
Okay, well before you do, I would try to find a better ref for all the TripleMania's still. Primary may be the only way to go. I know you've looked, but thought to mention it again for future endevors.--
WillC22:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)reply
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