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Archive 1 |
This article is in serious need of NPOV-vetting and cleanup. The cleanup is simply so that it will adhere to Wikipedia's quality standards. The NPOV is so that the article doesn't appear to attack the man - while he is most contemptible, and quite guilty of hate crimes, there are a number of uncited assertions in the article and Wikipedia isn't the consul for the prosecution. I've cleaned it a bit, but someone who is more familiar with the matter really should check it out. Michaelbusch 01:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Yea, but now it sounds like a promo piece -- Missoptics ( talk) 21:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC) and we don't need to rebroadcast so much of his rants. The court testimony can and should be summarized. Missoptics ( talk) 21:58, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
I removed Image:UndercoverMosquekill.jpg, because there is no source saying that he said the words ascribed to him in the image. Unless we come up with a reliable source that attributes to him those words, the image should not be in the article, nor on wikipedia. Bless sins ( talk) 21:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
So what is your accusation; that Google is misrepresenting the BBC? Seriously, Bless Sins, this is the BBC documentary hosted on Google video. No one is denying that, so please stop with the semantics and focus on real issues. Thank you. -- Avi ( talk) 18:39, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I re-wrote the biography section bringing reliable sources for whatever I could. The Controversy section needs serious work, including possible renaming. -- Avi ( talk) 02:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Don't have time right now, but here is a good reference for anyone choosing to work on this article: Kenya Prepares to Deport Islamic Preacher Supertouch ( talk) 19:47, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
The WP:Lead is in error for calling this man a muslim Cleric. There is no clergy in Islam. This is a misunderstanding arising out of viewing Islam from a Judeo-Christian viewpoint where a clergy does exist. In Islam an Imam is a mere custodian of a mosque or a personed well-versed in religion. There is no priesthood. Therefore I am removing the term from WP:Lead. Rlinfinity ( talk) 16:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I have cut the following passage as it is plainly wrong.
Firstly, annual convictions for all offences under the Offences against the Person Act 1861 have been very high ever since the thing was passed, as it still contains the main offences of non-fatal violence. For statistics, for example, see report number 218 of the Law Commission which was published in 1992, and consultation paper number 122 (gives the number of cases under ss 18, 20 and 47 tried on indictment in 1988 as 17,167), both available as a pdfs from BAILII.
Secondly, if this claim is supossed, despite its literal meaning, to refer specifically to convictions under section 4 of that Act (the offence of soliciting to murder), there was a conviction in R v Shephard [1919] 2 KB 125, 14 Cr App R 26, CCA, and that is only 84 years, not more than a century. That case is mentioned in the 1999 edition of Archold. I don't have time to go on a trawl through statistics but the suggestion that there have been no convictions under section 4 for long periods of time is not believable.
A claim like this should be sourced from statistics from the Home Office, published in a command paper, or perhaps Hansard, not the Jamaica Observer or a book that is only marginally related to the subject, as they are not reliable sources. [I forgot to sign this post. James500 ( talk) 15:36, 11 September 2011 (UTC)]
I have had a look at the official statistics for 1999 and 2000. When I looked at the "small print" at the end on page 256 of the PDF, I found that unfortunately they are not collecting separate statistics for section 4, but are instead grouping soliciting to murder together with conspiracy to murder (Criminal Law Act 1977, s 1), making threats to kill (section 16 of the 1861 Act) and certain cases of assisting an offender (Criminal Law Act 1967, s 4) under the misleading heading of "threat or conspiracy to murder", which makes it impossible to determine how many people were convicted under section 4 and might be the reason why these claims are being made. James500 ( talk) 15:31, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
And see this conviction reported by the BBC on 21 December 2001. That is over a year earlier and the article does not suggest that this is an unusual occurrance. James500 ( talk) 22:28, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
If you look at the page soliciting to murder, you will find four reported cases resulting in convictions decided between 1983 and 1996. Those are only the ones that got to the appellate courts. That said, the two of those reports that I have looked at refer to soliciting to murder, but don't explicitly refer to section 4. Do the sources that were formerly in the article offer an explanation of where they are supposedly getting this information from? Google Books will not let me look at the applicable page of the book cited. Unless there is a convincing explanation (i.e. they say which statistics or other source they have looked at, so that those can be checked) I would not regard them as reliable. James500 ( talk) 12:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
References
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
This article is in serious need of NPOV-vetting and cleanup. The cleanup is simply so that it will adhere to Wikipedia's quality standards. The NPOV is so that the article doesn't appear to attack the man - while he is most contemptible, and quite guilty of hate crimes, there are a number of uncited assertions in the article and Wikipedia isn't the consul for the prosecution. I've cleaned it a bit, but someone who is more familiar with the matter really should check it out. Michaelbusch 01:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Yea, but now it sounds like a promo piece -- Missoptics ( talk) 21:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC) and we don't need to rebroadcast so much of his rants. The court testimony can and should be summarized. Missoptics ( talk) 21:58, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
I removed Image:UndercoverMosquekill.jpg, because there is no source saying that he said the words ascribed to him in the image. Unless we come up with a reliable source that attributes to him those words, the image should not be in the article, nor on wikipedia. Bless sins ( talk) 21:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
So what is your accusation; that Google is misrepresenting the BBC? Seriously, Bless Sins, this is the BBC documentary hosted on Google video. No one is denying that, so please stop with the semantics and focus on real issues. Thank you. -- Avi ( talk) 18:39, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I re-wrote the biography section bringing reliable sources for whatever I could. The Controversy section needs serious work, including possible renaming. -- Avi ( talk) 02:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Don't have time right now, but here is a good reference for anyone choosing to work on this article: Kenya Prepares to Deport Islamic Preacher Supertouch ( talk) 19:47, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
The WP:Lead is in error for calling this man a muslim Cleric. There is no clergy in Islam. This is a misunderstanding arising out of viewing Islam from a Judeo-Christian viewpoint where a clergy does exist. In Islam an Imam is a mere custodian of a mosque or a personed well-versed in religion. There is no priesthood. Therefore I am removing the term from WP:Lead. Rlinfinity ( talk) 16:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I have cut the following passage as it is plainly wrong.
Firstly, annual convictions for all offences under the Offences against the Person Act 1861 have been very high ever since the thing was passed, as it still contains the main offences of non-fatal violence. For statistics, for example, see report number 218 of the Law Commission which was published in 1992, and consultation paper number 122 (gives the number of cases under ss 18, 20 and 47 tried on indictment in 1988 as 17,167), both available as a pdfs from BAILII.
Secondly, if this claim is supossed, despite its literal meaning, to refer specifically to convictions under section 4 of that Act (the offence of soliciting to murder), there was a conviction in R v Shephard [1919] 2 KB 125, 14 Cr App R 26, CCA, and that is only 84 years, not more than a century. That case is mentioned in the 1999 edition of Archold. I don't have time to go on a trawl through statistics but the suggestion that there have been no convictions under section 4 for long periods of time is not believable.
A claim like this should be sourced from statistics from the Home Office, published in a command paper, or perhaps Hansard, not the Jamaica Observer or a book that is only marginally related to the subject, as they are not reliable sources. [I forgot to sign this post. James500 ( talk) 15:36, 11 September 2011 (UTC)]
I have had a look at the official statistics for 1999 and 2000. When I looked at the "small print" at the end on page 256 of the PDF, I found that unfortunately they are not collecting separate statistics for section 4, but are instead grouping soliciting to murder together with conspiracy to murder (Criminal Law Act 1977, s 1), making threats to kill (section 16 of the 1861 Act) and certain cases of assisting an offender (Criminal Law Act 1967, s 4) under the misleading heading of "threat or conspiracy to murder", which makes it impossible to determine how many people were convicted under section 4 and might be the reason why these claims are being made. James500 ( talk) 15:31, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
And see this conviction reported by the BBC on 21 December 2001. That is over a year earlier and the article does not suggest that this is an unusual occurrance. James500 ( talk) 22:28, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
If you look at the page soliciting to murder, you will find four reported cases resulting in convictions decided between 1983 and 1996. Those are only the ones that got to the appellate courts. That said, the two of those reports that I have looked at refer to soliciting to murder, but don't explicitly refer to section 4. Do the sources that were formerly in the article offer an explanation of where they are supposedly getting this information from? Google Books will not let me look at the applicable page of the book cited. Unless there is a convincing explanation (i.e. they say which statistics or other source they have looked at, so that those can be checked) I would not regard them as reliable. James500 ( talk) 12:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
References
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Diannaa ( talk) 20:46, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
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