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His teachers included Muhammad ibn Ibraheem, Al-Ateeq, Abdurrahman ibn Hassan Aal-Shaikh, and Mohammad Ameen Al-Shanqeeti.
This article is pure Salafi hagiography, save for Striver's Shi'a-POV edit at the top. It completely fails to put Ibn Baz in any kind of context. There are many Muslims who feel that the kind of Islam he espoused is narrow, rigid, and intolerant, and have no respect for him whatsoever. This should find a place in the article. Zora 21:25, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree w/ Zora. Many Muslims don't agree with bin baz's fatwas, and not for being too "conservative" or anything like that, but just for ignoring certain evidence and going against the ijma (consensus) of scholars.
An anon editor deleted the above comments and replaced them with:
Shaykh bin baaz is one of the greatest islamic scholars in the past century. He is accepted and respected by the majority of muslims i.e. Ahl sunnah. Allah yarhammu. Those who speak ill of him (the minority of so called muslims) seing as he has passed away only raise his swaab and harm themselves.
An anon editor inserted a whole lot of information about bin Baz on 17 July 2005. Unfortunately, it was all lifted verbatim from this site. Per the copyvio policy for existing pages, I reverted to the last non-copyvio version. Just FYI. -- Skoosh 03:28, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
after 2 years:
the problem of copyvio policy for existing pages still existed, some users forced MezzoMezzo to start making sense and bring over references and restructure the article as in terms of structure, it was copied and pasted from the mentioned website. Unfortunatly the user MezzoMezzo still argues credibility. My eyes Chubeat8 22:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, this article should be merged with Ibn Baz, which I just found. People are more likely to look for Ibn Baz then they are for the whole dang name. Zora 03:48, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Merged tidied and partly verified. Needs more work. Hijri dates need to be converted. Also mention his support of the dreaded Mutawwa (religious police).-- Anjouli 16:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
This is the Ibn Baz article. Topics related to him is to be presented her. You have not a single valid argument for removing that statment. -- Striver 14:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
M, I heavily copyedited your contribution, both because there were no references (any cites for the crying episode?)) and because it seemed to be written from a Salafi point of view that is critical of the Saudi government. The wording used implied that the reader SHOULD share your feelings about Salafism, government policies, recent political events, etc. I tried to remove all the assumptions and give a completely neutral description. I may not have succeeded, of course. In particular, I may have "unpacked" your views incorrectly, in assuming that you would describe yourself as a Salafi, that the reformists spoke from that viewpoint, etc. Perhaps you were referring to secularist viewpoints, if there are such in Saudi Arabia? Zora 09:48, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
( he was a Muslim scholar and a staunch opponent of Shias and Mut'ah. He legalized the Misyar marriage.) I think this part of the article is extremely misplaced , I really dont think it is the most prominant part of the sheiks life or what he represented . He lived a long and very full life , and beginning the article with such a trivial peice of information is inappropriate ! Hhnnrr 16:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
would someone mind doing that , i have an open proxy Hhnnrr 13:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Dont you think that this section sounds too baised? Difference of opinion is one thing but entry in section 2.6 is just leading, provocative and just too sarcastic to be a part of any encyclopedia. I suggest it should be re-written with dignity showing the respect which should be offered to a scholar no matter which school of thought he belonged too. Saqibsohail 07:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have an independent authority on the meaning of his infamous "flat earth" fatwa? He claimed that he did not say that the earth was flat, and that he didn't even declare those who affirm its rotation to be unbelievers, although he holds that position to be false. He claimed that he just declared any who say that the sun does not revolve around the earth to be unbelievers (the motion of the sun around the earth in a "course" being "[in collision] with the clarity of the Noble Qur’an and the pure authentic Sunnah which both prove that the sun and the moon both run on a course")
Could someone check the conversion from islamic calendar to the Gregorian calendar. One source lists his date of death as May 13, rather than May 12. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that a long series of large edits to the article were done recently. For the most part they look good and surprisingly balanced but they also seem to lack sources almost entirely. I will get to working on fixing that soon but in the future please come to the talk page first with any major edits or restructuring. MezzoMezzo 21:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
62.150.9.30 deleted every issue remotely controversial or of interest to the uninformed reader from the article. I have replaced them. -- Leroy65X 23:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Recently, an edit with some strong POV overtones was added in the form of some
fatwas from this person. While much of the material does seem legit, is was presented in a very biased manner;
Wahhabi, for example, is a very contentious term in most instances especially considering the guy never called himself that. In addition, this is not
Wikiquote; refer to the
Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles guidelines as far as avoiding a quotefarm. Bin Baz made many
Fatwas, and it would make a mess of the article to list them all here. This, coupled with the fact that the ones provided are not necessarily any more relevant than any other he has made makes it a bit silly to keep a separate section for them, especially considering that the current consensus version of the controversy section is already apt.
Also, please do not simply rewrite or insert entirely new sections without gaining the approval of other editors first; review the official
Wikipedia:Consensus for more information on that. For the time being, I am considering the issue closed.
MezzoMezzo
02:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Fine MezzoMezzo, take a look at the sources and make sure to do the correction you see fit. From His Fatwas is an important part that characterized the uniqueness of this scholar..However modifications will be made, still his idea must be shown to the public. So go ahead with your corrections and we will go ahead with making sure his ideas rom his official website are exposed to the public..no sir, the issue is just openning..thanks
Thanks MezzoMezzo, I have no problem understanding your point, nevertheless, I offer my respect to the way you (and the collectivity) see this article should be. I understand that should the controvertial Fatawa be addressed at Wikipedia, then my be a hole new article should be created sepqaratly and a link should be offered at the bottom of Bin Baaz article like you stated. Now I renew my thanks to you again..take care! PS, in the Fatawa article, you will be invited to edit without restriction and show you arguments freely..good day to you!
-- thanks Mezzo, but I think over time, your credibility somehow is going to be questioned and your main article disputed. See in the Ibn Baaz official homepage! the Aarabic page they call for Jihad and the English page they call for peace and love. Wikipedia is where thinks get to be known. All Arabic contents -ligit- will be placed about your scholar. Just a matter of time doing the translation. As for the new article, it is by and large based on way more references than your main article. All the references are verified ligit. We even offered you videos, what else do you need!
Bin Baaz did not endorse the Oslo Peace Accord. Bin Laden criticized him for being a pupet of his government. Very suspicious insertion. We ask that this section to be deleted or an insertion of Ibn Baaz fatwa endorsing peace with Israel.
From Chubeat8: Thank MezzoMezzo for your input, the references added on the Oslo accord and Ibn Baaz accespting it were verified and were legitimate. The english source you cited before was improper as you linked the accord to that proof source. However, by adding those references you legitimized stating that Ibn Baaz , and therfore although not in the earlier english source, Ossama logically can be believed to have criticized the Shaikh for that..Thanks and more refernces are always good..Question Mezzo: what is wrong in adding a paragraph that will reveal to the readers his world view -the Shaikh-! I mean what he thinks about the Western culture, the other Muslim schools of thought etc..what is wrong with adding just his views on that, wouldd'nt that make this article more sound!
reveal to the readers his world view -the Shaikh-! I mean what he thinks about
After reading over most of this discussion, I tend to agree with MezzoMezzo on most of what has already been brought up. I strongly urge anyone here with negative views of Sheikh Ibn Baaz to refrain from manifesting them here, as there is simply no need. Keep up the good work, MezzoMezzo. Bu Seif
Reviewing other scholars academic and religious (example: Khomeini, Pipes, Nasrallah etc..) there was never a problem and they all have a section about their opinions. This article needs one about the subject famous opinions. Of course not in the improper way contributor Chubeat8 has done. It seems that Chubeat8 intends to attack although some elements of his unorganized, out of rule contribution are ligitimate. Thanks
the IP address is no argument to make..but It is clear that the other user was aggressive, out of rule and appears somehow attacking..I criticized that user for the way he came in. I find it also easy pretty much for any user to fall in the trap of attacking, especially when there is small point to make which other persons were not fair enough to hear. Daniel Pipes and other articles are in my view better than this one as thgere is a lot of diverse input into them. This one seems like the official website of Sheikh Ibn Baz. There was a lot of just copy and paste and all other than the seem to be official has been ruled out. Swapant
"none of his contributions were legitimate" I think, like I said before- that CHUBEAT8 has legitimate points, he had some emotions on the way those points were added. It is clear that his latest contributions are very good and benificial for the article. As long as there is a verifiable fact stating on the subject, there should be no problem. User: Swapant
"They recite these prayers in congregations of Dhikr (remembrance of Allah) or in the mosques after the Maghrib (sunset) prayers in the belief that such prayers will take them nearer to Allah."
"With regard to your question concerning some of the Sufis (mystics) who utter in the mosques and in some other places phrases such as `O Lord, grant peace and blessings on the one whom you have ordained to be instrumental in the unfolding of Your Mighty Secrets and in opening the doors to the sublime lights of Your Mercy and who has thus become Your vicegerent and who has inherited Your Hidden Secrets... etc.' The answer to this would be: All such utterances are nothing but pedantry and empty talk against which our Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم has warned us."
"[Shia]] Muslims including Ayatollah Khomeini as Non-Mulsims or Kafir"
"Khomeini has a book in which he mentions the excellence of the Imaams (Hassan and Hussein et al) of the family of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) over and above the Prophets and the Messengers (`alayhim as-salaam); (So) based upon this (statement of his) he is not a Muslim."
There is an absence of coherence is the section career. Its sub-sections are not related to it. Example:
Career: a. Flat earth c. Bin laden
What does the flat earth alegation has to do with his career! and so as Bin Laden Reorganization of ideas seen necessary. Swapant
and therefore, the links were provided..Swapant
That is excellent, you can add the Gazette than, in anycase the official website talks for it. I like the way you reorganized the article. I did not check the Albani you mentioned. But we will discuss that and other staff too.
user: Swapant
there is a lot of political correctness and inexactidudes on the eglish page compared the arabic. Mezzo, at least now you confess there was something not ok with this article. I just can not imagine how you did not spot the copy and past issue. Wiki world is not to make official websites of subjects copied and pasted. that is very poor doing. that is why it is not neutral -this article-. also, now you have all the a section of controversy..which is the only amelioration i can tell about this article. sorry for acting out of the rules in previous instances. i believe still my point was and still valid, how that was put in , was invalide. chubeat8
The idea that birthday celebrations in Islaam are an innovation should not be controversial at all. The Prophet (SallaAllaahu 'Alayhi wa-Sallam) explained that there are only two celebrations for his ummah: Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-'Adhaa. Also, he said that the people of his Ummah (that would be us) would follow the kuffaar (i.e. Jews and Christians) step-by-step; so much so that if they entered a lizard's hole we would enter it right after them. The Prophet (SallaAllaahu 'Alayhi wa-Sallam) and his Righteous Companions never celebrated their own birthdays. Indeed, they probably didn't even know when they were born. It is for these reasons and more that Muslims are not to celebrate birthdays--an innovation of the Kuffaar. Bu Seif
Bu Seif! the way you talk has a lot of Mosque style speech giving. Here is an academic word and we do not say Jesus the lord or Muhamad Salalahu alayhiwassalama..need to work on how to be academic and not missionary par-excellence. Remember more than 80% 0f the world are not Muslims and they do not understand the longue arabic pharases you are adding.
Is there anyone in here that finds the prohibition of birtday celebration not controversial! I think this one supported by one article from BBC and one copy of the fatwa link to the Ibn Baz official webpage should be returned under section controvery. If not, then the neutrality tag should stay there forever. It seems that one can not display controversial opinions of Ibn Baz in here. Any discussion on this particular point are welcome, I do not entend to get apologistic justifications. User: Swapant.
Reconsideration
In the above, Mezzo-Mezzo denounce adding material just because they are reported by bbc as he claims bbc does not grant the status of notability. See the contradiction here [1] where Mezzo-Mezzo asks others for something like bbc sourced to consent the additions..the peak of contradictions ever. swapant 15:06, 9 september 2007 (UTC)
From Chubeat8: Mezzo, you are very questionable. Who in the world does not find banning birthday celebration not controversial..common, do not be preaching wahabism in Wikipedia. you always swing around ideas. I find the way you handle this subject is very dishonest. I will write something with proofs to the administrator stating my point of view on this article which seems preaching for Wahabism rather than explaining it and showing things related to it. FYI
Actually you know what? I have some free time, so i'm going to go into - once again - all the problems with your recent edits to this article.
First, your claim that Bin Baz making a ruling against birthdays was controversial was made in
this edit. The source you cited for the edit is
here. This source says:
Posters have been going up in the Saudi Arabian capital, Riyadh, saying it is heresy under Islam to hold parties and give presents on birthdays.
The posters are copies of a religious decree issued three years ago by the country's top religious leader, Sheikh Abdulaziz bin Baz.
The decree adds that the same prohibition applies to companies and institutions marking anniversaries.
Religious decrees in Saudi Arabia normally carry the endorsement of the ruling family.
But the BBC Gulf correspondent says there is mounting speculation that this publication could be timed to embarrass the government.
Nationwide celebrations are due later this month to celebrate the centenary of the conquest of Riyadh by the nation's founding father, King Abdulazid al-Saud.
But some people say the posters were aimed at Christian expatriates in Saudi Arabia, who have been privately celebrating Christmas and New Year.
Nowhere in that article does it say that the ruling caused any sort of controversy or public outrage. At all. So why it makes a note that he did make such a ruling, it doesn't prove that it was controversial. Furthermore, it is well know that
Salafis - Bin Baz being one of many prominent Muslim scholars who are Salafi - don't celebrate birthdays. None of them do. So unless you're going to accuse everyone of that religious belief of being controversial, then I would just drop it before you get yourself in any deeper. For more information on Salafis - not just Bin Baz - who do not believe that celebrating birthdays is permissible in Islam, read
this; that forum is a very good example of what most Salafis believe. So again, the belief is not unique to Bin Baz and his ruling against birthdays amongst the many other Salafi scholars who made rulings against birthdays is not even significant.
Secondly, in
this edit you misquoted Bin Baz on what he said about both
Dhikr and
Sufis. In your edit, you said:
Shaikh ibn Baaz in a letter on the ruling regarding Muslims who do Dikr and additional prayers -the Suffi Muslims-, he regarded them as Polytheists and inovators that become wrong doers.
The reference you cited for this can be found
here. If we read this web page for what the guy actually said in this letter, we can see first that he didn't declare people who do dhikr and additional prayers to be polytheists and innovators, but rather just congregational dhikr that was made to people other than
Allah:
I am in receipt of your letter regarding certain worships at specified times of the day or night practised privately by Muslims of your country. These are prayers to which Allah has not granted any power; among these prayers are those that have been introduced as innovations and those that are polytheistic; they attribute such prayers to the Commander of the Faithful, `Ali bin Abi Tâlib رضي الله عنه and to others. They recite these prayers in congregations of Dhikr (remembrance of Allah) or in the mosques after the Maghrib (sunset) prayers in the belief that such prayers will take them nearer to Allah. During these prayers, they utter phrases such as, 'O men of Allah, help us with the Help of Allah and be of succour to us.' They also say, `O you leaders of authority, O you masters, please respond to our prayers, O you, who possess all help; please intercede with Allah on behalf of this slave who is pleading to you at your door, seized by the fear of his failings; help us O Prophet of Allah; I do not have anyone else to whom I can plead; it is you through whom our wishes can be fulfilled; you are the best of the people of Allah like Hamza, the leader of all martyrs; no one other than you can help us; O Prophet of Allah, come to our help.' They also say, `O Allah, bless the one you have made as a means for revealing your mighty secrets and your Divine light; he became a true vicegerent and inheritor of all Your Truth.'
So it was very specific and nowhere near as broad as you said. As for your ridiculous claim that he also considered Sufis to be polytheists and innovators:
With regard to your question concerning some of the Sufis (mystics) who utter in the mosques and in some other places phrases such as `O Lord, grant peace and blessings on the one whom you have ordained to be instrumental in the unfolding of Your Mighty Secrets and in opening the doors to the sublime lights of Your Mercy and who has thus become Your vicegerent and who has inherited Your Hidden Secrets... etc.' The answer to this would be: All such utterances are nothing but pedantry and empty talk against which our Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم has warned us.
So we can see that he again was being very specific: just Sufis who make statements such as the above. You were also making this statement out to be much more broad than it really is.
Then we have your next dubious set of claims, that he declared all Shia and Qadiri Sufis to not be Muslim. You made that claim in
this edit, your exact wording being:
Shaikh Ibn Baz declared the Qadiriya Suffi Muslims and Shia Muslims including Ayatollah Khomeini as Non-Mulsims or Kafir.
The reference you cited for the claim that he declared Qadiriya Sufis to not be Muslims can be found
here. It's a relatively short page, so I can copy and paste ALL the text on the entire page right here:
Islaamic ruling regarding the Qaadiyaaniyyah Please appropriately reference this fatwa to: www.fatwa-online.com, thankyou!* Question: We request your explanation about the Islaamic ruling regarding the Qaadiyaaniyyah group, and their self-procalimed "prophet" Ghulaam Ahmad al-Qaadiyaanee. We also request you send us some books which have researched this group since I am concerned in studying them?
Response: The prophethood was completed by our prophet Muhammad (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) so there is no prophet after him, for that which is confirmed in the Book and the Sunnah. So whoever claims prophethood after this, then he is a liar. And from amongst these (claimants) is Ghulaam Ahmad al-Qaadiyaanee. So his call of prophethood for himself is a lie, and that which the Qaadiyaaniyoon (his followers) claim of his prophethood, then this claim is false.
And the judgement of the Council of Senior Scholars of Saudi Arabia was passed regarding the Qaadiyaaniyyoon, that they were a kaafir sect because of their beliefs.
And with Allaah lies all success and may Allaah send prayers and salutations upon our Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) and his family and his companions.
The Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Fataawa, comprising -
Head: Shaykh 'Abdul 'Azeez Ibn Abdullaah Ibn Baaz;
Deputy Head: Shaykh 'Abdur-Razzaaq 'Afeefee;
Member: Shaykh 'Abdullaah Ibn Ghudayyaan;
Member: Shaykh 'Abdullaah Ibn Qu'ood
Fataawa al-Lajnah ad-Daa.imah lil-Buhooth al-'Ilmiyyah wal-Iftaa., - Volume 2, Page 313, Fatwa No.4317
So clearly he was not talking about the
Qadiriyyah, but rather the
Qadyani, more commonly referred to as the Ahmadiyya, a group which virtually all mainstream Muslims consider to be a separate religion entirely. Not only were you wrong about the group he was talking about, but you also failed to prove how this is controversial at all. Your second claim, that Bin Baz declared Shia's not to be Muslims, was cited with
this reference. Once again, it's a short page so I can post the entire text here:
The Islaamic ruling regarding (Ayatollah) Khomeini Please appropriately reference this fatwa to: www.fatwa-online.com, thankyou!* Question: What is the Islaamic ruling regarding (Ayatollah) Khomeini?
Response: Khomeini has a book in which he mentions the excellence of the Imaams (Hassan and Hussein et al) of the family of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) over and above the Prophets and the Messengers (`alayhim as-salaam); (So) based upon this (statement of his) he is not a Muslim.
Shaykh al-Albaanee
al-Haawee min Fataawa ash-Shaykh al-Albaanee – Page 349
Wow, just...wow. Nowhere at all does he say anything about Shia or Shi'ism on that page. At all. Period. He was only talking about Khomeini specifically. I honestly don't see how that could have been any sort of mistake on your part; the word Shia doesn't even appear on that page once. Furthermore, the ruling was not made by Bin Baz, but by Albani, so you didn't even get the person right.
Honestly, I don't know how you expect me to take you seriously at this point. I've tried to
assume good faith with you - i've really, really tried. But not only have you tried to pass of a set of random opinions that you happen to disagree with as controversial with no backing for that claim whatsoever (proving he held those opinions DOES NOT prove that they're controversial), you seem to have very blatantly misquoted the man to the point where I don't see how it could have even been an honest mistake. As we are told in the
Wikipedia:Assume good faith behavioral guideline:
This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Actions inconsistent with good faith include repeated vandalism, confirmed malicious sockpuppetry, and lying.
I really don't know what else to say about this whole mess. I've never seen dishonesty and misquoting so obviously teetering on the edge of the official Wikipedia:Libel policy. MezzoMezzo 02:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
From Chubeat8:
Here you are quotted and answered:
a-``he didn't declare people who do dhikr and additional prayers to be polytheists and innovators, but rather just congregational dhikr that was made to people other than Allah``
Regardless if Dikr is to Allah or Adonay that does not matter. Those are Muslims who do Dikr regardless of its details that the controversial Sheikh declared politheists. So are you speaking against yourselfhere.
b- ``just Sufis who make statements such as the above. You were also making this statement out to be much more broad than it really is.``
Sorry but here either you or the Shaikh do not know about Suffism. All Suffis make such statements and let us not fool around with that. Give one Suffi sect that does not do such!! where is your proof!
c- ``Islaamic ruling regarding the Qaadiyaaniyyah Please appropriately``
You are right in correcting the mistake. Qadiriya is wrong, Qaadiyaniya is right. Bottom line Qaadianists are Muslims that the Sheikh considers Kafir. See your link please!
d- ``Khomeini has a book in which he mentions the excellence of the Imaams (Hassan and Hussein et al) of the family of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) over and above the Prophets and the Messengers (`alayhim as-salaam); (So) based upon this (statement of his) he is not a Muslim`` you also said: ``Wow, just...wow. Nowhere at all does he say anything about Shia or Shi'ism``
Here you make the evidence of not knowing what Shiism is all about. That statement refered to as Khomeini`s is a Shia belief. All Sheites believe that Imams are better then all prophets except Muhamad because he -Muhamad- himself was Imam. See aqaed.com and also najaf.org for example to see what Ayatollah Sistani says in that respect. So you prove to be not knowing what you are talking about. The Sheikh Bin Baz declaring knomeini Kafir just because he considers the Imams better the prophets is enough to say that the Sheikh considers the Shiite as Kafirs aswell. The good example: ( for that is to say I believe because Jack says god is one he is terrorists, that is enough for me to quote you as considering whoever says god is one as terrorist.) so the idea is clear and again you turned around it like usual.
e: ``good faith include repeated vandalism, confirmed malicious sockpuppetry, and lying``
This, I leave it up to the administrator and wiki regulation to decide, I will accept their decision if I am here vandalizing or struggeling to make a case in a monoplozid one sided article.
f- ``really don't know what else to say about this whole mess. I've never seen dishonesty and misquoting so obviously ``
at least my effort has liberated this article from being the official copy and paste website of Sheikh bin baz Da`wa members. The rest of accusations are refused. The good faith is what we have. I hope there going to be more discussions and better more contributions. Chubeat8
See, user Mezzo-Mezzo does not dear to delete this Fatwa of Ibn Baz on the section controversy :The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment`` If this man issues a religious decree stating that if you believe the earth is round you are to be punished and you are etheist!!! in other words you are non Muslim (unless there are etheist Muslims that Mezzo may come up with in his usual apologistic comments..if you believe the earth is not flat or square or round or even flat in a different way, you are non-Mulsim declared by Mr Ibn Baaz. So Mezzo is coming here to tell me that Shiites and Suffis who are Muslims who radically see god different that Mr Ibn Baaz, the later considers them Muslims. What a joke Mezzo, this whole mess up with this acticle must be stopped and the administrator must have a say in this..All the time this article was here Mezzo did not notice it was copied and pasted from Ibn Baaz Saudi based webpage. Just after criticism begun, Mezzo became a source finder and verificator!! I can not buy your honesty Mezzo. We will see you on Albaani as well.
Chubeat8
it was said
We will see you on Albaani as well
and I will be there User:al-Boriqee
A- Mezzo said: ``specific type of dhikr and a specific type of additional prayers specified in his letter to be so.``
Our challenge to him is this. Please show us any Fatwa where Ibn Baz considers Muslims who do Dikr as Ok and as Muslims. KNowing that Dikr in the Suffi world is something that does not exist with original Islamic orthopraxy. There for specific Dikf for Bin Baz means all Dikr other than what Prohpet Muhammad did (Quran recitation, the five prayers). The rest according to him is Specific Dikr (inovated by Suffis) by specific people (Suffis). we challenge you to state here any Dikr as example permitted by Ibn Baaz that Suffis do! of course other than Quran recitation and 5 prayers plus Chaf3 and Witr..!!
B- Mezzo said:``The link only proves that he made the ruling; it DOES NOT prove that his doing so was controversial``
Ok, fine, if you find that not controversial in classification and knowing that that is not agreed up on the least in Muslim world, never mind the west. Then why not putting those pragraphs not under Controversy, but under opinion! we need to show Ibn Baaz opinions! what is the fear from!!
F: ``your effort hasn't changed this article at all. All of your edits were disruptive, inappropriate, and in violation of various official Wikipedia policies. If you check the article's ``
aah..and that is why you kept the paragraph on Succession!! you pick and chose..don`t you. Birthsay celebration is prohibited by this Sheikh with copy of the fatwa, removed..wow..why, put it under opinions..I will research on a lot of staff including how the Sheikh sees women..and I will put it there and again you remove it , an other debate starts untill the administrator does something. Or may be you see it in the Journals here in North America..His opinions will be unveiled regardless you effort of falsification of character.. Chubeat8
If I may make something clear, MezzoMezzo's argument seems to me undeniably sound. The burden of proof is certainly not on him, as it is well known that the Prophet (SallaAllaahu 'Alayhi wa-Sallam) said that the believer's tongue should be wet with the remembrance of Allaah 'Aza wa Jal. So Sheikh Bin Baaz would not classify such an obvious act of worship as an innovation, or unlawful. Again--I thank you for your dedication to accuracy and the upholding of this article's factualness, MezzoMezzo. Bu Seif
I support the arguments made by Chubeat8. I only ask him, before editing, that he quotes the exact reference wording. Although he made valid points, the way he quotes references does not respond to wikipedia criteria. I must STRESS though here that a lot of his materials are well-quotted and therefore I support them being put back. i.e: Birhday banning issue and an old entry regarding this Shaikh's banning of Muslims to immigrate in non-Muslims lands. These 2 elements are very valid and need to be put back. User Mezzo-Mezzo unfortunatly uses the right word for the bad purpose. In fact Chubeat8 in my analysis uses the bad words for the good purpose. This article the way it is now is in no way, shape or form neutral. Based on previously red notes, I conclude that this is a disputed article and remains disputed. This is in response for editor Chubeat8 request that those who share the views with him, must display that in the discussion section. I recomand not adding more titles and this should be for Chubeat8 supports to make their arument. Mezzo-Mezzo argument supporters may have their own header and the administrator should creat a POV archive on Ibn Baz. uss-cool
I added some of the valid points originating from Chubeat8 under section opinions. They were added in a fashion that makes the opinion displays itself rather then anyone else displaying it.
Those are strictly opinions expressed by Shaikh Ibn Baz. Added to his article. It is the job of the reader to think freely if they controversial or sound. Because that is not our job to classify them. From now on Chubeat8, try not to put yourself in the addons. Put what the Shaikh said for example or did and back it by identical references. If not, than Mezzo-Mezzo is here to just do the scan.
user: Swapant
so remove his opinion about the oslo peace accord and about bin laden!! go ahead and also remove the random opinions about flat earth and just have his official web site from saudi arabia here. This page is purely monopolized by certain individuals..no academic value what so ever. Concensus, I like that.. user: Swapant
Consensus in many debates and discussions is not based upon number of votes, but upon policy-related points made by editors.
They found this article just like your associates or co-leagues in opinion did. user:Chubeat8
USER: ITAQALLAH! YOU PLAY SMART TRYING TO FOOL PEOPLE HERE. DO NOT DELETE CONTRIBUTION AND ARGUMENTS IN THIS AREA. IT IS CALLED DISCUSSION. WE KNOW SOMEPEOPLE HATE TO DISCUSS AND THAT WHY THEY ARE CONTROVERSIAL. SO BRING YOUR PAPERS ON THE TABLE AT LEAST LIKE MEZZO-MEZZO. MEZZO-MEZZO IS SOMETIMES RIGHT, SOMETIMES WRONG, BUT AT LEAST HE MAKES SOME POINTS AND WHERE HE IS RIGHTS AND ADMITS WHERE HE IS WRONG AND HE IS NOT IMPOLITE TO THE DEGEE WHERE HE LOGS IN TO DELETE PEOPLE'S ARGUMENT IN THE DISCUSSION AREA. DO NOT DO IT AGAIN OK! BE GOOD..KAWAKIBI
khomeini is known to the earth planet inhabitants as Muslim, Ibn Baz says he is Not Muslim. Relevent piece added. wikipedia 101 should allow one to understand deleting this means a disaster..) in case missing Chubeat8. we have to agree on this one at least guys..then the debate will improve..
This debate is very healthy in shaping a great article. Parties are adiviced to use common sense. In any case, unless the recent debate since someone started the controversial fatwa hint, this article would be very dry. I definitely see a progress through this debate. Both or all of you, keep the debate going and keep the best selected and justified contributions growing in the article because frankly, the page before you print it you get one page that by skipping the line and no vibration in it..now the article is becoming more and more neutral and dynamic..keep up. KAWAKIBI
``A controversy or dispute is a matter of opinion over which parties actively disagree, argue, or debate. Controversies can range in size from private disputes between two individuals to large-scale disagreements between societies.
Perennial areas of controversy include religion, philosophy and politics.`` Now Given that Ibn Baz declared Khomeini Not a Mulslim, and given that Khomeini is a leading Muslim feagure, this makes it enough to add his Takfir Fatwa on Khomeini in the section of controversy. Nevertheless, Mezzo-Mezzo will say it is not controversial. May be in an other planet but in Wikipedia, it is a controversy. Again, The principle of being Neutral in Wikipedia overide the concensus. In other words, one can not sometime some article and if no one know about it it becomes good!! this is not the blue cheese I guess -Samneh- so Itaqallah and just be fair. This is an insult to the Sheikh not to show what he says. Bottom line he had a view and it was controversial. Worst, he could be wrong or maybe right..but that has been said.
Oh please, Muslims calling other Muslims non-Muslim you call it not controversial!!!!!what is it then, crazy people!! !!
This article of two and half pages caused a 25 pages debate. Rooughly because some elements do not want it diversified. I noticed that some contributors like user: Itaqallah speak no logic and even erase other people input on the talk page. Not only that, the user talks about primary and secondary sources!!as if this is an original research. What a redicule. The best way is to present the facts and the said by the subject and may be provide explanations from subsequent saying from the subject like they did in his Fatwa that he reversed about the deployment of foreigners. If not, then obviously the two and a half pages copy and paste from the subject official Saudi page will not worth a bus ticket in terms of academic value. That is to say, it gets you no where and in fact it back fires against the subject. People may find answers in Wikipedia, but if the the questions raise from its articles, Wikipedia loses the half time where the reader will look for the answers elsewhere. User: Swapant
look at this:
"" Shaikh ibn Baaz first developed notoriety and a reputation for integrity in the 1940s when he served time in prison as punishment for contradicting government policy with a fatwa declaring the employment of non- Muslims in the Persian Gulf forbidden by Islam. Ironically, roughly fifty years later, in a seeming reversal, he issued another fatwa allowing the deployment of non- Muslim troops on Saudi Arabian soil to defend the Kingdom from the Iraqi army. [1]
????????????????His reasoning: if the defense of the kingdom was left to Muslims, it would be the khawaarij who would no doubt take control, and the average Saudi citizen would have difficulty differentiating between the orthodox Salafee creed with that of the former. However, if the job were given to the non-Muslims, such confusion would be non-existent.??????????????? ""
Now if you look at the added material in the second paragraph by users totally approved by persons like Mezzo-Mezzo whom the later never question. You find the Shaikh issuing a Fatwa, after that he himself revered the Fatwa, yet, some one here may be close family member is trying to explain to us the reasoning behind the Shaikh mind change!! common, let us know where you get that baggage from..or leave things as they are.. User Swapant
I think that Swapant user is right and Mezzo-Mezzo who seem to devoted to this article rushing back and forth to keep as it was : The copy and paste of the Official Page of Ibn Baz based in Saudia Arabia backed by some out side Tablighi -IslamiST missionary or Islamist globalization website- Now Mezzo-Mezzo is running away to hide behind things like personal attacks and wiki conscesus and his supporter second half ITAQALLAh is covering him up and even suggesting the deletion of modt of the article. I think that the original user who introduced the fatwa section is to be given a great credit. This not a preaching post folks. Your deeds are revealed and your missionary paged evaluated, visited and even printed in some parts. So no matter what you do with future deletion etc..we have the proof that some body, pretending to be a wiki freedom fighter was using wikipedia to pass Islamist agenda. That person(s) know himself and we have his editions achived giving concensus to info linked to the said Islamist source. User:Shubeat8
Look at this one again:
Flat earth alegations Shaikh ibn Baaz is best known in the West from a report claiming he issued a fatwa declaring: "The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment."[13] He described this flat earth-report as "a pure lie"[14].
??????????/Several Muslim leaders argued that, in fact, he maintained not that the Earth is flat but that it is a stationary globe that the sun and moon revolve around, using Quranic literalism as evidence. (Discussion of the issues can be found in Flat Earth theories).??????????
Again, someone is trying to speak against the reality, the said by the Shaikh..Mezzo-Mezzo was always happy with this kind of Non-sense, and only interested in removing our referenced sections. Things can not be revealed more than that..it is obvious this artcle was a way to reflect official Saudi stand point. user: Swapant
Look at thsi example once again:
When Shaikh ibn Baaz died in 1999 the loss of "his erudition and reputation for intransigence" was so great the Saudi government was said to have "found itself staring into a vacuum" unable to find a figure able to "fill bin Baaz's shoes."[15] ??????????His influence on the Salafi movement was large, and most of the prominent judges and religious scholars of Saudi Arabia today are former students of his.????????????
Where does this bagage come from, no source no example..yet, Watchers like mentioned above seem happy with that and use wikipedia rules for the wrong purpose. User: Swapant
Firstly, and foremost, Many fo the arguements raised against mezzomezzo are half way linked to any real context. much of it is distorted which is why this section is being added to clear up some of these misconstrued matters.
it was said
"Our challenge to him is this. Please show us any Fatwa where Ibn Baz considers Muslims who do Dikr as Ok and as Muslims. KNowing that Dikr in the Suffi world is something that does not exist with original Islamic orthopraxy. There for specific Dikf for Bin Baz means all Dikr other than what Prohpet Muhammad did (Quran recitation, the five prayers). The rest according to him is Specific Dikr (inovated by Suffis) by specific people (Suffis). we challenge you to state here any Dikr as example permitted by Ibn Baaz that Suffis do! of course other than Quran recitation and 5 prayers plus Chaf3 and Witr..!!"
regarding the first wish
هل هناك أدعية وأذكار ليوم الجمعة، وأخرى ليوم السبت
Question:
There are some books which specifically mention Supplications and Adhkaar (words of remembrance) reported from the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وسلم), from them, for example, a book entitled “Ad-Duaa al-Mustajaab” in it are found supplications for every day of the week. There are Supplications and Adhkaar for Friday (Jumu’ah) and others for Saturday and the likes, so is adhering to these Adhkaar from innovation or are they from the Sunnah? هناك بعض الكتب الخاصة بالأذكار والأدعية الواردة عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم منها مثلا كتاب " الدعاء المستجاب" وقد وجدت فيه أدعية لكل يوم من أيام الأسبوع ، فهناك أدعية وأذكار ليوم الجمعة، وأخرى ليوم السبت، وهكذا . فهل الالتزام بهذه الأذكار بدعة أم هو من السنة؟
Answer:
This book is not depended upon and its author is a Haatibul-Layl [1] one who gathers together the corrupt and despicable with the good and fine; and the saheeh (authentic), the Da’eef (weak) and the Mawdoo’ (fabricated) [narrations altogether]. Hence it is not to be relied upon. And it is not permissible to single out any day or any night with anything except with evidence from al-Ma’soom (the infallible) (عليه الصلاة والسلام). So this book is not relied upon. Rather you should have recourse to other books, since that which is firmly established from the Messenger of Allaah (عليه الصلاة والسلام) from the Adhkaar and supplications that are mentioned in the morning and evening, then that is legislated, and that which is not [established] then its not [legislated]. As for the book “Ad-Duaa al-Mustajaab” then it is not relied upon since its author is not worthy of that, as we have mentioned that he gathers together the corrupt and despicable with the good and fine; and the saheeh (authentic), the Da’eef (weak) and the Mawdoo (fabricated) [narrations altogether]. Indeed we have written with regards to that [i.e authentic supplications and adhkaar] a small treatise which we have entitled “Tuhfatul-Akhyaar bimaa Sahha min ad-D’iyyah wal-Adhkaar” so refer to it if you wish.
هذا كتاب غير معتمد، وصاحبه حاطب ليل يجمع الغث والسمين، والصحيح والضعيف والموضوع فلا يعتمد عليه، ولا يجوز أن يخصص أي يوم أو أي ليلة بشيء إلا بدليل عن المعصوم عليه الصلاة والسلام. فهذا الكتاب لا يعتمد عليه، ولكن تراجع الكتب الأخرى فما ثبت عن رسول الله عليه الصلاة والسلام من أذكار أو أدعية تقال في الصباح أو المساء شرع ذلك، وما لا فلا.
وأما كتاب: "الدعاء المستجاب" فلا يعتمد عليه؟ لأن صاحبه ليس بأهل لذلك؟ لأنه كما قلنا يجمع بين الغث والسمين، والصحيح والضعيف والموضوع. وقد كتبنا في ذلك رسالة سميناها: "تحفة الأخيار بما صح من الأدعية والأذكار" فراجعها إن شئت.
الشيخ عبدالعزيز بن عبدالله بن باز
فتاوى نور على الدرب
So Yes Bin Baz still considered the one hwo performs dhikr, even in the innovated way that sufis tariqas practice as still muslims. That is because the mutamid positon within the madhaab of the hanaabliha is that the negation of emaan from the heart of the servant is strictly upon calling to others alogn with Allah. As for dhikr, this is somethign that has roots in either the sunnah, or other than it, and as a result it can be at best a sunni practice or a bida practice. Never did he negate the Islam of one who may have fallen into certain bida practises, because in order for bida to remove one from t he fold ofg Islam, that bida has to be mukafara.
2. Secondly, there is no "knowing" that sufi dhikr has roots in Islamic orthopraxy. There are two main positions regarding the practice of dhikr 1. restricting it to the sunnah of whatever the prophet verbatimly said 2. Those who brought into Islam adhkaar, for example, an-Nawawi's adkhaar.
The majority of people who follow the first is ahlul-hadeeth cholars, mainly form the hanaabliah who took on the hanbali asl "All worldly affairs is halaal unless there is a text prohibiting it and ALL religious worship (ibaadah) is prohibited unless there is a texts allowing for it.
Those who take on the second positon are most, if not all, the sufis groups and SOME scholars of the ahlu-sunnah i.e. an-Nawawee.
however, the defining criteria which brings support to either side always in Islam is "whatever the pious predecessors" have performed. If the salaf did not do it, then it cannot be considered Islam. Thus the evidence supported by the people who took the firs position are the clear proofs of the salaf's lack of performing such worship that was never legislated by the prophet. The people who took on board the second position only do so finding support through ijtihaad at best. Thus ijtihaad, when conflicting with source texts, is overided, thus the first position rules out he second regardless if a handful of sunni scholars have taken on such a position.
3. And lastly
when it was said
"We challenge you to state here any Dikr as example permitted by Ibn Baaz that Suffis do! of course other than Quran recitation and 5 prayers plus Chaf3 and Witr..!"
I say that can't literally, much less, logically happen.Because there is nothing that Bin Baz permits that Sufis do EXCEPT whatever was stated in the two sources. Hence you are requiring something from someone that can't possibly add up and can't happen
Regarding the Flat Earth Stance
it was said
" See, user Mezzo-Mezzo does not dear to delete this Fatwa of Ibn Baz on the section controversy :The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment`` If this man issues a religious decree stating that if you believe the earth is round you are to be punished and you are etheist!!! in other words you are non Muslim (unless there are etheist Muslims that Mezzo may come up with in his usual apologistic comments..if you believe the earth is not flat or square or round or even flat in a different way, you are non-Mulsim declared by Mr Ibn Baaz. So Mezzo is coming here to tell me that Shiites and Suffis who are Muslims who radically see god different that Mr Ibn Baaz, the later considers them Muslims. What a joke Mezzo, this whole mess up with this acticle must be stopped and the administrator must have a say in this..All the time this article was here Mezzo did not notice it was copied and pasted from Ibn Baaz Saudi based webpage. Just after criticism begun, Mezzo became a source finder and verificator!! I can not buy your honesty Mezzo. We will see you on Albaani as well. "
The fatwa comes from a blind man. It is regarding his understanding of a particular ayaah he took literally, while other scholars have mentioned his error. He only made a general ruling on someone disbeleiving based on his understanding of that ayaah, and not that his udnerstanding of that yaah is the rock solid understanding ayaah in question. There is a myriad of other scholars in our islamic history who have made such blunders, (of course by default of being human) and have made takfeer of those who deny what they ruled upon. Thus your single handedly singling him out for something neaqrly every other schoalr in Islamic history has done is nothing less than bigotry
It was errnorneously stated
"Regardless if Dikr is to Allah or Adonay that does not matter. Those are Muslims who do Dikr regardless of its details that the controversial Sheikh declared politheists. So are you speaking against yourselfhere."
It does matter.
Islam is "worship to Allah"
Polytheism is "worship to other than Allah"
According to what you said than anyone who does shikr is a muslim. This is like the irj'aa of Jahm ibn Safwaan who only n egated emaan (faith) from a person only if they did not know Allah. That means, chrsitians, jews, budhists, and every other disbeleiving nation is considered muslim, and according to this statement, you have congruity to Jahm's creed.
It was said
"You are right in correcting the mistake. Qadiriya is wrong, Qaadiyaniya is right. Bottom line Qaadianists are Muslims that the Sheikh considers Kafir. See your link please!"
who told you that. The entire Islamic nation, salafi,ash'ari,sufi, and every other group gathered in one fo the islamic ocuntries specficially dispensing a ruling on the qadianiyyah. It is unanimous agreement, from all hersiological groups that the qadiyanniyah areo ut the fold of Islam.
it was correctly said
"The Sheikh Bin Baz declaring knomeini Kafir just because he considers the Imams better the prophets is enough to say that the Sheikh considers the Shiite as Kafirs aswell"
in this you are right, and it woul;d have been wrogn for Mezzo to say opposite of this. BInbaz, along with a myriad of other schoalrs, be they salafi or not, all considered the leaders of the shi'aa as kuffar, and that the commoners to be merely dhaal (misguided) and that proof of kufr has to be shown to such a commoner before the ruling of kufr be applied.
it was said
"From Chubeat8: Mezzo, you are very questionable. Who in the world does not find banning birthday celebration not controversial"
The non muslim world. Not the muslim world. But since your speaking on behalf of Islam, then likewise if it is not contraversial for muslims, it should be contraversial for one who prefesses islam like yourself, unless of course such people who prefess islam fall under the prophetic tradition which was sided earlier
"My Ummah would follow the kuffaar (i.e. Jews and Christians) step-by-step; so much so that if they entered a lizard's hole we would enter it right after them."
and lastly, it is of no consequence whether his views be expressed in public rather those who accept his dawah would appreciate it. Just remember that whatever views he expresses that is contaminated with the contaimants of his opposers, there will be those who will decrypt whatever fundamental errors come from what opposition the shaykh had thus the reality of his beleif made clear for all to see.
1- Very good point raised in the last insertion about the issue of Takfir. The user uses evidence as already verified from Ibn Baaz Fatwas that he does not declare non-Muslim those who do other kinds of supplications and prayers and Dikr that is not authentic for him. Now why we maintain that Ibn Baz considers Suffis and Shias non Muslims! here is why:
a.Suffis call on people for help in their Adkar. Example: Madad Mada Ya Rasulallah or Madada madad Ya Ali. Same for Shia sayying: Ya husayn. In brief, they believe that they can call for those person -dead- to help them. That is already calling on other than Allah. For Ibn Baz, calling other than Allah is Polytheism and of course Polytheism is not Tahid-Monotheism- that makes Suffis and Shias Kafirs.
b. an other example, Ibn Baz declared Khomeini as Kafir because he believe Imams are better than prophets. All Shias including their leading most prominent Marjaas have the same belief. Doesn`t that make them Kafit in the eyes of Ibn Baz!!!!
2- On Flat earth, here you legitilmize our claim that he said what he said. Stating that is no singling out. When I started this discussion it was there already anyways..
I like your last insertion. Keep the dialogue going User:Chubeat8
here is an example of MezzoMezzo lying about me. In the article, section Ayatollah Khomeini which I helped maintaining; I said that Ibn Baz considers Khomeini Kafir. Here is the proof of what Ibn Baz has said: ``The Islaamic ruling regarding (Ayatollah) Khomeini
Question: What is the Islaamic ruling regarding (Ayatollah) Khomeini?
Response: Khomeini has a book in which he mentions the excellence of the Imaams (Hassan and Hussein et al) of the family of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) over and above the Prophets and the Messengers (`alayhim as-salaam); (So) based upon this (statement of his) he is not a Muslim.
Shaykh al-Albaanee al-Haawee min Fataawa ash-Shaykh al-Albaanee – Page 349``
You call this original research! :-) how funny! oooooh I forgot to sign sorry!! user:chubeat8
It was said
"a.Suffis call on people for help in their Adkar. Example: Madad Mada Ya Rasulallah or Madada madad Ya Ali. Same for Shia sayying: Ya husayn. In brief, they believe that they can call for those person -dead- to help them. That is already calling on other than Allah. For Ibn Baz, calling other than Allah is Polytheism and of course Polytheism is not Tahid-Monotheism- that makes Suffis and Shias Kafirs."
this is an incorrect analysis becauase the one who made this statement must have become unaware of the fact that regarding the principles of distributing fatwaa (rulings) particualrly regarding groups and individuals, then while in principle, it is a general beleif that such and such person holds that whoever (general) does something, is by default a disbeleiver, then this is a general ruling that does not apply specifically on any individual. The only time a ruling is fixed upon a particualrr individual or a group is upon analysis of their beleifs and principles.
so with regard to the shia, it is the general beleif of all sunnis, not just Bin Baz, that their beleif principlly is disbeleif, it quite different from any individual among the sunni nation to declare any particualry individual as a disbeleiver unl;ess detailed evidences are brought to such an individual and the removal of osbticles be performed (the rules for the removal of obsticles have been used in Islamic juristic rulings extracted from the prophetc tradition that obsticles include such as sanity, the lack of the age of awareness and understanding, confusion, and ignorance.)
As for the sufis, there are different branches of sufis, a myriad of views that all contribute to a spectrum inherent in the sufi theological system, and on that basis different sufi tariqas are of varying levels with regard to their congruity to the orthodox practice of Islam, some being marginally in error (according to orthodox Islam) and some being far worse in error (as deemed by traditional orthodox scholars). Thus is becaome an error for any side of people with reagrd to their partisan views to paint all sufis accross the board and such and such, particularly when no one sufi group fully agrees with another, many of whom declare others as heretics. user:al-boriqee
In the section on Osama Bin Laden, the contributor used a suspicious missionary onesided website as a reference. This should be deleted asap for its non-conformity with Wikipedia rules. PLease refer to: http://www.troid.org/articles/manhaj/
the center is called The center for the reign of Islamic preaching. KAWAKIBI—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.139.38 ( talk • contribs)
thanks for pointing that out..please keep posting with us.. Chubeat8—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.139.38 ( talk • contribs)
IMPORTANT: THE REFERED TO WEBSITE WAS CLOSED AFTER MENTIONING IT HERE. IT IS NO LONGER ACCESSIBLE AND ALL RELATED MATERIALS SHOULD BE REMOVED.. chubeat8 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.139.38 ( talk) 06:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Here I can not understand how can this insertion be personal attack!!! This is a verified missionary by all startdars website. Instead of deleting you who argue otherwise, tell us what you think about this as a reference. We are waiting for courageous people to be in charge to answerus.. user:Chubeat8I—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.139.38 ( talk • contribs)
aah, ok MezzoMezzo, so those who preach Shiism and criticize Ibn Baz do not violate wiki policies and therefore we may use them as source. you, then, have no right to reserve the right to use Sunnite preaching websites and at the same time refuse those well documented Shiites refrences. You , I think, have fallen in the mother of contradictions already. How can can you re-establish editting credibility. Preaching credibility, that I give you.. Chubeat8
Very hot discussion page. This will generate a lot of interesting participations. I take no sides, both make their arguments. Just to have both sides represented in the article the same way they are represented in discussion could be a great idea.
Jean-François Lafleure—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.139.38 ( talk • contribs)
Thanks for the comment, you have the lamest attempt to preach The Reign Of Islam here in wikipedia..This public computer and people talk to each other..do not forget to add that this ine was not igned by the preceeding Blablabla ..... Chubeat8
My room is not public like Adult Breast Feeding in Wahabi Islam. See: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21805283-663,00.html We do not do business in the rooms of Tora Bora like the Islamist Reign supporters do. We show our IP first and we put our arguments in the table after. Often we get lamed arguments and Zig-Zag citations of Islamist Dawa preachers like the one you inserted previously. Chubeat8
universities in north america are 24 hours unlike Saudia..are you logging from Saudia!! or Londonistan! never mind, what is important is that I will leave the aticle as you did it at your last contribution unders the condition that is remains flagged as disputed..you like it! tell me.. chubeat8
I think that Chubeat8 refered you to the wrong new source. Alazhar has nothing to do with Ibn Baz. Yet, Albany, influenced by Ibn Baz has authorized Adult Breastfeeding and someone earlier refered in Albany article to his voice recording on youtube stating so. So bottom line, Chubeat8 made the wrong reference in this issue, yet, it carries a truth. I see it more relevent to be added to Albany article than Ibn Baz. Swapant
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
His teachers included Muhammad ibn Ibraheem, Al-Ateeq, Abdurrahman ibn Hassan Aal-Shaikh, and Mohammad Ameen Al-Shanqeeti.
This article is pure Salafi hagiography, save for Striver's Shi'a-POV edit at the top. It completely fails to put Ibn Baz in any kind of context. There are many Muslims who feel that the kind of Islam he espoused is narrow, rigid, and intolerant, and have no respect for him whatsoever. This should find a place in the article. Zora 21:25, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree w/ Zora. Many Muslims don't agree with bin baz's fatwas, and not for being too "conservative" or anything like that, but just for ignoring certain evidence and going against the ijma (consensus) of scholars.
An anon editor deleted the above comments and replaced them with:
Shaykh bin baaz is one of the greatest islamic scholars in the past century. He is accepted and respected by the majority of muslims i.e. Ahl sunnah. Allah yarhammu. Those who speak ill of him (the minority of so called muslims) seing as he has passed away only raise his swaab and harm themselves.
An anon editor inserted a whole lot of information about bin Baz on 17 July 2005. Unfortunately, it was all lifted verbatim from this site. Per the copyvio policy for existing pages, I reverted to the last non-copyvio version. Just FYI. -- Skoosh 03:28, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
after 2 years:
the problem of copyvio policy for existing pages still existed, some users forced MezzoMezzo to start making sense and bring over references and restructure the article as in terms of structure, it was copied and pasted from the mentioned website. Unfortunatly the user MezzoMezzo still argues credibility. My eyes Chubeat8 22:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, this article should be merged with Ibn Baz, which I just found. People are more likely to look for Ibn Baz then they are for the whole dang name. Zora 03:48, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Merged tidied and partly verified. Needs more work. Hijri dates need to be converted. Also mention his support of the dreaded Mutawwa (religious police).-- Anjouli 16:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
This is the Ibn Baz article. Topics related to him is to be presented her. You have not a single valid argument for removing that statment. -- Striver 14:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
M, I heavily copyedited your contribution, both because there were no references (any cites for the crying episode?)) and because it seemed to be written from a Salafi point of view that is critical of the Saudi government. The wording used implied that the reader SHOULD share your feelings about Salafism, government policies, recent political events, etc. I tried to remove all the assumptions and give a completely neutral description. I may not have succeeded, of course. In particular, I may have "unpacked" your views incorrectly, in assuming that you would describe yourself as a Salafi, that the reformists spoke from that viewpoint, etc. Perhaps you were referring to secularist viewpoints, if there are such in Saudi Arabia? Zora 09:48, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
( he was a Muslim scholar and a staunch opponent of Shias and Mut'ah. He legalized the Misyar marriage.) I think this part of the article is extremely misplaced , I really dont think it is the most prominant part of the sheiks life or what he represented . He lived a long and very full life , and beginning the article with such a trivial peice of information is inappropriate ! Hhnnrr 16:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
would someone mind doing that , i have an open proxy Hhnnrr 13:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Dont you think that this section sounds too baised? Difference of opinion is one thing but entry in section 2.6 is just leading, provocative and just too sarcastic to be a part of any encyclopedia. I suggest it should be re-written with dignity showing the respect which should be offered to a scholar no matter which school of thought he belonged too. Saqibsohail 07:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have an independent authority on the meaning of his infamous "flat earth" fatwa? He claimed that he did not say that the earth was flat, and that he didn't even declare those who affirm its rotation to be unbelievers, although he holds that position to be false. He claimed that he just declared any who say that the sun does not revolve around the earth to be unbelievers (the motion of the sun around the earth in a "course" being "[in collision] with the clarity of the Noble Qur’an and the pure authentic Sunnah which both prove that the sun and the moon both run on a course")
Could someone check the conversion from islamic calendar to the Gregorian calendar. One source lists his date of death as May 13, rather than May 12. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that a long series of large edits to the article were done recently. For the most part they look good and surprisingly balanced but they also seem to lack sources almost entirely. I will get to working on fixing that soon but in the future please come to the talk page first with any major edits or restructuring. MezzoMezzo 21:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
62.150.9.30 deleted every issue remotely controversial or of interest to the uninformed reader from the article. I have replaced them. -- Leroy65X 23:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Recently, an edit with some strong POV overtones was added in the form of some
fatwas from this person. While much of the material does seem legit, is was presented in a very biased manner;
Wahhabi, for example, is a very contentious term in most instances especially considering the guy never called himself that. In addition, this is not
Wikiquote; refer to the
Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles guidelines as far as avoiding a quotefarm. Bin Baz made many
Fatwas, and it would make a mess of the article to list them all here. This, coupled with the fact that the ones provided are not necessarily any more relevant than any other he has made makes it a bit silly to keep a separate section for them, especially considering that the current consensus version of the controversy section is already apt.
Also, please do not simply rewrite or insert entirely new sections without gaining the approval of other editors first; review the official
Wikipedia:Consensus for more information on that. For the time being, I am considering the issue closed.
MezzoMezzo
02:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Fine MezzoMezzo, take a look at the sources and make sure to do the correction you see fit. From His Fatwas is an important part that characterized the uniqueness of this scholar..However modifications will be made, still his idea must be shown to the public. So go ahead with your corrections and we will go ahead with making sure his ideas rom his official website are exposed to the public..no sir, the issue is just openning..thanks
Thanks MezzoMezzo, I have no problem understanding your point, nevertheless, I offer my respect to the way you (and the collectivity) see this article should be. I understand that should the controvertial Fatawa be addressed at Wikipedia, then my be a hole new article should be created sepqaratly and a link should be offered at the bottom of Bin Baaz article like you stated. Now I renew my thanks to you again..take care! PS, in the Fatawa article, you will be invited to edit without restriction and show you arguments freely..good day to you!
-- thanks Mezzo, but I think over time, your credibility somehow is going to be questioned and your main article disputed. See in the Ibn Baaz official homepage! the Aarabic page they call for Jihad and the English page they call for peace and love. Wikipedia is where thinks get to be known. All Arabic contents -ligit- will be placed about your scholar. Just a matter of time doing the translation. As for the new article, it is by and large based on way more references than your main article. All the references are verified ligit. We even offered you videos, what else do you need!
Bin Baaz did not endorse the Oslo Peace Accord. Bin Laden criticized him for being a pupet of his government. Very suspicious insertion. We ask that this section to be deleted or an insertion of Ibn Baaz fatwa endorsing peace with Israel.
From Chubeat8: Thank MezzoMezzo for your input, the references added on the Oslo accord and Ibn Baaz accespting it were verified and were legitimate. The english source you cited before was improper as you linked the accord to that proof source. However, by adding those references you legitimized stating that Ibn Baaz , and therfore although not in the earlier english source, Ossama logically can be believed to have criticized the Shaikh for that..Thanks and more refernces are always good..Question Mezzo: what is wrong in adding a paragraph that will reveal to the readers his world view -the Shaikh-! I mean what he thinks about the Western culture, the other Muslim schools of thought etc..what is wrong with adding just his views on that, wouldd'nt that make this article more sound!
reveal to the readers his world view -the Shaikh-! I mean what he thinks about
After reading over most of this discussion, I tend to agree with MezzoMezzo on most of what has already been brought up. I strongly urge anyone here with negative views of Sheikh Ibn Baaz to refrain from manifesting them here, as there is simply no need. Keep up the good work, MezzoMezzo. Bu Seif
Reviewing other scholars academic and religious (example: Khomeini, Pipes, Nasrallah etc..) there was never a problem and they all have a section about their opinions. This article needs one about the subject famous opinions. Of course not in the improper way contributor Chubeat8 has done. It seems that Chubeat8 intends to attack although some elements of his unorganized, out of rule contribution are ligitimate. Thanks
the IP address is no argument to make..but It is clear that the other user was aggressive, out of rule and appears somehow attacking..I criticized that user for the way he came in. I find it also easy pretty much for any user to fall in the trap of attacking, especially when there is small point to make which other persons were not fair enough to hear. Daniel Pipes and other articles are in my view better than this one as thgere is a lot of diverse input into them. This one seems like the official website of Sheikh Ibn Baz. There was a lot of just copy and paste and all other than the seem to be official has been ruled out. Swapant
"none of his contributions were legitimate" I think, like I said before- that CHUBEAT8 has legitimate points, he had some emotions on the way those points were added. It is clear that his latest contributions are very good and benificial for the article. As long as there is a verifiable fact stating on the subject, there should be no problem. User: Swapant
"They recite these prayers in congregations of Dhikr (remembrance of Allah) or in the mosques after the Maghrib (sunset) prayers in the belief that such prayers will take them nearer to Allah."
"With regard to your question concerning some of the Sufis (mystics) who utter in the mosques and in some other places phrases such as `O Lord, grant peace and blessings on the one whom you have ordained to be instrumental in the unfolding of Your Mighty Secrets and in opening the doors to the sublime lights of Your Mercy and who has thus become Your vicegerent and who has inherited Your Hidden Secrets... etc.' The answer to this would be: All such utterances are nothing but pedantry and empty talk against which our Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم has warned us."
"[Shia]] Muslims including Ayatollah Khomeini as Non-Mulsims or Kafir"
"Khomeini has a book in which he mentions the excellence of the Imaams (Hassan and Hussein et al) of the family of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) over and above the Prophets and the Messengers (`alayhim as-salaam); (So) based upon this (statement of his) he is not a Muslim."
There is an absence of coherence is the section career. Its sub-sections are not related to it. Example:
Career: a. Flat earth c. Bin laden
What does the flat earth alegation has to do with his career! and so as Bin Laden Reorganization of ideas seen necessary. Swapant
and therefore, the links were provided..Swapant
That is excellent, you can add the Gazette than, in anycase the official website talks for it. I like the way you reorganized the article. I did not check the Albani you mentioned. But we will discuss that and other staff too.
user: Swapant
there is a lot of political correctness and inexactidudes on the eglish page compared the arabic. Mezzo, at least now you confess there was something not ok with this article. I just can not imagine how you did not spot the copy and past issue. Wiki world is not to make official websites of subjects copied and pasted. that is very poor doing. that is why it is not neutral -this article-. also, now you have all the a section of controversy..which is the only amelioration i can tell about this article. sorry for acting out of the rules in previous instances. i believe still my point was and still valid, how that was put in , was invalide. chubeat8
The idea that birthday celebrations in Islaam are an innovation should not be controversial at all. The Prophet (SallaAllaahu 'Alayhi wa-Sallam) explained that there are only two celebrations for his ummah: Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-'Adhaa. Also, he said that the people of his Ummah (that would be us) would follow the kuffaar (i.e. Jews and Christians) step-by-step; so much so that if they entered a lizard's hole we would enter it right after them. The Prophet (SallaAllaahu 'Alayhi wa-Sallam) and his Righteous Companions never celebrated their own birthdays. Indeed, they probably didn't even know when they were born. It is for these reasons and more that Muslims are not to celebrate birthdays--an innovation of the Kuffaar. Bu Seif
Bu Seif! the way you talk has a lot of Mosque style speech giving. Here is an academic word and we do not say Jesus the lord or Muhamad Salalahu alayhiwassalama..need to work on how to be academic and not missionary par-excellence. Remember more than 80% 0f the world are not Muslims and they do not understand the longue arabic pharases you are adding.
Is there anyone in here that finds the prohibition of birtday celebration not controversial! I think this one supported by one article from BBC and one copy of the fatwa link to the Ibn Baz official webpage should be returned under section controvery. If not, then the neutrality tag should stay there forever. It seems that one can not display controversial opinions of Ibn Baz in here. Any discussion on this particular point are welcome, I do not entend to get apologistic justifications. User: Swapant.
Reconsideration
In the above, Mezzo-Mezzo denounce adding material just because they are reported by bbc as he claims bbc does not grant the status of notability. See the contradiction here [1] where Mezzo-Mezzo asks others for something like bbc sourced to consent the additions..the peak of contradictions ever. swapant 15:06, 9 september 2007 (UTC)
From Chubeat8: Mezzo, you are very questionable. Who in the world does not find banning birthday celebration not controversial..common, do not be preaching wahabism in Wikipedia. you always swing around ideas. I find the way you handle this subject is very dishonest. I will write something with proofs to the administrator stating my point of view on this article which seems preaching for Wahabism rather than explaining it and showing things related to it. FYI
Actually you know what? I have some free time, so i'm going to go into - once again - all the problems with your recent edits to this article.
First, your claim that Bin Baz making a ruling against birthdays was controversial was made in
this edit. The source you cited for the edit is
here. This source says:
Posters have been going up in the Saudi Arabian capital, Riyadh, saying it is heresy under Islam to hold parties and give presents on birthdays.
The posters are copies of a religious decree issued three years ago by the country's top religious leader, Sheikh Abdulaziz bin Baz.
The decree adds that the same prohibition applies to companies and institutions marking anniversaries.
Religious decrees in Saudi Arabia normally carry the endorsement of the ruling family.
But the BBC Gulf correspondent says there is mounting speculation that this publication could be timed to embarrass the government.
Nationwide celebrations are due later this month to celebrate the centenary of the conquest of Riyadh by the nation's founding father, King Abdulazid al-Saud.
But some people say the posters were aimed at Christian expatriates in Saudi Arabia, who have been privately celebrating Christmas and New Year.
Nowhere in that article does it say that the ruling caused any sort of controversy or public outrage. At all. So why it makes a note that he did make such a ruling, it doesn't prove that it was controversial. Furthermore, it is well know that
Salafis - Bin Baz being one of many prominent Muslim scholars who are Salafi - don't celebrate birthdays. None of them do. So unless you're going to accuse everyone of that religious belief of being controversial, then I would just drop it before you get yourself in any deeper. For more information on Salafis - not just Bin Baz - who do not believe that celebrating birthdays is permissible in Islam, read
this; that forum is a very good example of what most Salafis believe. So again, the belief is not unique to Bin Baz and his ruling against birthdays amongst the many other Salafi scholars who made rulings against birthdays is not even significant.
Secondly, in
this edit you misquoted Bin Baz on what he said about both
Dhikr and
Sufis. In your edit, you said:
Shaikh ibn Baaz in a letter on the ruling regarding Muslims who do Dikr and additional prayers -the Suffi Muslims-, he regarded them as Polytheists and inovators that become wrong doers.
The reference you cited for this can be found
here. If we read this web page for what the guy actually said in this letter, we can see first that he didn't declare people who do dhikr and additional prayers to be polytheists and innovators, but rather just congregational dhikr that was made to people other than
Allah:
I am in receipt of your letter regarding certain worships at specified times of the day or night practised privately by Muslims of your country. These are prayers to which Allah has not granted any power; among these prayers are those that have been introduced as innovations and those that are polytheistic; they attribute such prayers to the Commander of the Faithful, `Ali bin Abi Tâlib رضي الله عنه and to others. They recite these prayers in congregations of Dhikr (remembrance of Allah) or in the mosques after the Maghrib (sunset) prayers in the belief that such prayers will take them nearer to Allah. During these prayers, they utter phrases such as, 'O men of Allah, help us with the Help of Allah and be of succour to us.' They also say, `O you leaders of authority, O you masters, please respond to our prayers, O you, who possess all help; please intercede with Allah on behalf of this slave who is pleading to you at your door, seized by the fear of his failings; help us O Prophet of Allah; I do not have anyone else to whom I can plead; it is you through whom our wishes can be fulfilled; you are the best of the people of Allah like Hamza, the leader of all martyrs; no one other than you can help us; O Prophet of Allah, come to our help.' They also say, `O Allah, bless the one you have made as a means for revealing your mighty secrets and your Divine light; he became a true vicegerent and inheritor of all Your Truth.'
So it was very specific and nowhere near as broad as you said. As for your ridiculous claim that he also considered Sufis to be polytheists and innovators:
With regard to your question concerning some of the Sufis (mystics) who utter in the mosques and in some other places phrases such as `O Lord, grant peace and blessings on the one whom you have ordained to be instrumental in the unfolding of Your Mighty Secrets and in opening the doors to the sublime lights of Your Mercy and who has thus become Your vicegerent and who has inherited Your Hidden Secrets... etc.' The answer to this would be: All such utterances are nothing but pedantry and empty talk against which our Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم has warned us.
So we can see that he again was being very specific: just Sufis who make statements such as the above. You were also making this statement out to be much more broad than it really is.
Then we have your next dubious set of claims, that he declared all Shia and Qadiri Sufis to not be Muslim. You made that claim in
this edit, your exact wording being:
Shaikh Ibn Baz declared the Qadiriya Suffi Muslims and Shia Muslims including Ayatollah Khomeini as Non-Mulsims or Kafir.
The reference you cited for the claim that he declared Qadiriya Sufis to not be Muslims can be found
here. It's a relatively short page, so I can copy and paste ALL the text on the entire page right here:
Islaamic ruling regarding the Qaadiyaaniyyah Please appropriately reference this fatwa to: www.fatwa-online.com, thankyou!* Question: We request your explanation about the Islaamic ruling regarding the Qaadiyaaniyyah group, and their self-procalimed "prophet" Ghulaam Ahmad al-Qaadiyaanee. We also request you send us some books which have researched this group since I am concerned in studying them?
Response: The prophethood was completed by our prophet Muhammad (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) so there is no prophet after him, for that which is confirmed in the Book and the Sunnah. So whoever claims prophethood after this, then he is a liar. And from amongst these (claimants) is Ghulaam Ahmad al-Qaadiyaanee. So his call of prophethood for himself is a lie, and that which the Qaadiyaaniyoon (his followers) claim of his prophethood, then this claim is false.
And the judgement of the Council of Senior Scholars of Saudi Arabia was passed regarding the Qaadiyaaniyyoon, that they were a kaafir sect because of their beliefs.
And with Allaah lies all success and may Allaah send prayers and salutations upon our Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) and his family and his companions.
The Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Fataawa, comprising -
Head: Shaykh 'Abdul 'Azeez Ibn Abdullaah Ibn Baaz;
Deputy Head: Shaykh 'Abdur-Razzaaq 'Afeefee;
Member: Shaykh 'Abdullaah Ibn Ghudayyaan;
Member: Shaykh 'Abdullaah Ibn Qu'ood
Fataawa al-Lajnah ad-Daa.imah lil-Buhooth al-'Ilmiyyah wal-Iftaa., - Volume 2, Page 313, Fatwa No.4317
So clearly he was not talking about the
Qadiriyyah, but rather the
Qadyani, more commonly referred to as the Ahmadiyya, a group which virtually all mainstream Muslims consider to be a separate religion entirely. Not only were you wrong about the group he was talking about, but you also failed to prove how this is controversial at all. Your second claim, that Bin Baz declared Shia's not to be Muslims, was cited with
this reference. Once again, it's a short page so I can post the entire text here:
The Islaamic ruling regarding (Ayatollah) Khomeini Please appropriately reference this fatwa to: www.fatwa-online.com, thankyou!* Question: What is the Islaamic ruling regarding (Ayatollah) Khomeini?
Response: Khomeini has a book in which he mentions the excellence of the Imaams (Hassan and Hussein et al) of the family of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) over and above the Prophets and the Messengers (`alayhim as-salaam); (So) based upon this (statement of his) he is not a Muslim.
Shaykh al-Albaanee
al-Haawee min Fataawa ash-Shaykh al-Albaanee – Page 349
Wow, just...wow. Nowhere at all does he say anything about Shia or Shi'ism on that page. At all. Period. He was only talking about Khomeini specifically. I honestly don't see how that could have been any sort of mistake on your part; the word Shia doesn't even appear on that page once. Furthermore, the ruling was not made by Bin Baz, but by Albani, so you didn't even get the person right.
Honestly, I don't know how you expect me to take you seriously at this point. I've tried to
assume good faith with you - i've really, really tried. But not only have you tried to pass of a set of random opinions that you happen to disagree with as controversial with no backing for that claim whatsoever (proving he held those opinions DOES NOT prove that they're controversial), you seem to have very blatantly misquoted the man to the point where I don't see how it could have even been an honest mistake. As we are told in the
Wikipedia:Assume good faith behavioral guideline:
This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Actions inconsistent with good faith include repeated vandalism, confirmed malicious sockpuppetry, and lying.
I really don't know what else to say about this whole mess. I've never seen dishonesty and misquoting so obviously teetering on the edge of the official Wikipedia:Libel policy. MezzoMezzo 02:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
From Chubeat8:
Here you are quotted and answered:
a-``he didn't declare people who do dhikr and additional prayers to be polytheists and innovators, but rather just congregational dhikr that was made to people other than Allah``
Regardless if Dikr is to Allah or Adonay that does not matter. Those are Muslims who do Dikr regardless of its details that the controversial Sheikh declared politheists. So are you speaking against yourselfhere.
b- ``just Sufis who make statements such as the above. You were also making this statement out to be much more broad than it really is.``
Sorry but here either you or the Shaikh do not know about Suffism. All Suffis make such statements and let us not fool around with that. Give one Suffi sect that does not do such!! where is your proof!
c- ``Islaamic ruling regarding the Qaadiyaaniyyah Please appropriately``
You are right in correcting the mistake. Qadiriya is wrong, Qaadiyaniya is right. Bottom line Qaadianists are Muslims that the Sheikh considers Kafir. See your link please!
d- ``Khomeini has a book in which he mentions the excellence of the Imaams (Hassan and Hussein et al) of the family of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) over and above the Prophets and the Messengers (`alayhim as-salaam); (So) based upon this (statement of his) he is not a Muslim`` you also said: ``Wow, just...wow. Nowhere at all does he say anything about Shia or Shi'ism``
Here you make the evidence of not knowing what Shiism is all about. That statement refered to as Khomeini`s is a Shia belief. All Sheites believe that Imams are better then all prophets except Muhamad because he -Muhamad- himself was Imam. See aqaed.com and also najaf.org for example to see what Ayatollah Sistani says in that respect. So you prove to be not knowing what you are talking about. The Sheikh Bin Baz declaring knomeini Kafir just because he considers the Imams better the prophets is enough to say that the Sheikh considers the Shiite as Kafirs aswell. The good example: ( for that is to say I believe because Jack says god is one he is terrorists, that is enough for me to quote you as considering whoever says god is one as terrorist.) so the idea is clear and again you turned around it like usual.
e: ``good faith include repeated vandalism, confirmed malicious sockpuppetry, and lying``
This, I leave it up to the administrator and wiki regulation to decide, I will accept their decision if I am here vandalizing or struggeling to make a case in a monoplozid one sided article.
f- ``really don't know what else to say about this whole mess. I've never seen dishonesty and misquoting so obviously ``
at least my effort has liberated this article from being the official copy and paste website of Sheikh bin baz Da`wa members. The rest of accusations are refused. The good faith is what we have. I hope there going to be more discussions and better more contributions. Chubeat8
See, user Mezzo-Mezzo does not dear to delete this Fatwa of Ibn Baz on the section controversy :The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment`` If this man issues a religious decree stating that if you believe the earth is round you are to be punished and you are etheist!!! in other words you are non Muslim (unless there are etheist Muslims that Mezzo may come up with in his usual apologistic comments..if you believe the earth is not flat or square or round or even flat in a different way, you are non-Mulsim declared by Mr Ibn Baaz. So Mezzo is coming here to tell me that Shiites and Suffis who are Muslims who radically see god different that Mr Ibn Baaz, the later considers them Muslims. What a joke Mezzo, this whole mess up with this acticle must be stopped and the administrator must have a say in this..All the time this article was here Mezzo did not notice it was copied and pasted from Ibn Baaz Saudi based webpage. Just after criticism begun, Mezzo became a source finder and verificator!! I can not buy your honesty Mezzo. We will see you on Albaani as well.
Chubeat8
it was said
We will see you on Albaani as well
and I will be there User:al-Boriqee
A- Mezzo said: ``specific type of dhikr and a specific type of additional prayers specified in his letter to be so.``
Our challenge to him is this. Please show us any Fatwa where Ibn Baz considers Muslims who do Dikr as Ok and as Muslims. KNowing that Dikr in the Suffi world is something that does not exist with original Islamic orthopraxy. There for specific Dikf for Bin Baz means all Dikr other than what Prohpet Muhammad did (Quran recitation, the five prayers). The rest according to him is Specific Dikr (inovated by Suffis) by specific people (Suffis). we challenge you to state here any Dikr as example permitted by Ibn Baaz that Suffis do! of course other than Quran recitation and 5 prayers plus Chaf3 and Witr..!!
B- Mezzo said:``The link only proves that he made the ruling; it DOES NOT prove that his doing so was controversial``
Ok, fine, if you find that not controversial in classification and knowing that that is not agreed up on the least in Muslim world, never mind the west. Then why not putting those pragraphs not under Controversy, but under opinion! we need to show Ibn Baaz opinions! what is the fear from!!
F: ``your effort hasn't changed this article at all. All of your edits were disruptive, inappropriate, and in violation of various official Wikipedia policies. If you check the article's ``
aah..and that is why you kept the paragraph on Succession!! you pick and chose..don`t you. Birthsay celebration is prohibited by this Sheikh with copy of the fatwa, removed..wow..why, put it under opinions..I will research on a lot of staff including how the Sheikh sees women..and I will put it there and again you remove it , an other debate starts untill the administrator does something. Or may be you see it in the Journals here in North America..His opinions will be unveiled regardless you effort of falsification of character.. Chubeat8
If I may make something clear, MezzoMezzo's argument seems to me undeniably sound. The burden of proof is certainly not on him, as it is well known that the Prophet (SallaAllaahu 'Alayhi wa-Sallam) said that the believer's tongue should be wet with the remembrance of Allaah 'Aza wa Jal. So Sheikh Bin Baaz would not classify such an obvious act of worship as an innovation, or unlawful. Again--I thank you for your dedication to accuracy and the upholding of this article's factualness, MezzoMezzo. Bu Seif
I support the arguments made by Chubeat8. I only ask him, before editing, that he quotes the exact reference wording. Although he made valid points, the way he quotes references does not respond to wikipedia criteria. I must STRESS though here that a lot of his materials are well-quotted and therefore I support them being put back. i.e: Birhday banning issue and an old entry regarding this Shaikh's banning of Muslims to immigrate in non-Muslims lands. These 2 elements are very valid and need to be put back. User Mezzo-Mezzo unfortunatly uses the right word for the bad purpose. In fact Chubeat8 in my analysis uses the bad words for the good purpose. This article the way it is now is in no way, shape or form neutral. Based on previously red notes, I conclude that this is a disputed article and remains disputed. This is in response for editor Chubeat8 request that those who share the views with him, must display that in the discussion section. I recomand not adding more titles and this should be for Chubeat8 supports to make their arument. Mezzo-Mezzo argument supporters may have their own header and the administrator should creat a POV archive on Ibn Baz. uss-cool
I added some of the valid points originating from Chubeat8 under section opinions. They were added in a fashion that makes the opinion displays itself rather then anyone else displaying it.
Those are strictly opinions expressed by Shaikh Ibn Baz. Added to his article. It is the job of the reader to think freely if they controversial or sound. Because that is not our job to classify them. From now on Chubeat8, try not to put yourself in the addons. Put what the Shaikh said for example or did and back it by identical references. If not, than Mezzo-Mezzo is here to just do the scan.
user: Swapant
so remove his opinion about the oslo peace accord and about bin laden!! go ahead and also remove the random opinions about flat earth and just have his official web site from saudi arabia here. This page is purely monopolized by certain individuals..no academic value what so ever. Concensus, I like that.. user: Swapant
Consensus in many debates and discussions is not based upon number of votes, but upon policy-related points made by editors.
They found this article just like your associates or co-leagues in opinion did. user:Chubeat8
USER: ITAQALLAH! YOU PLAY SMART TRYING TO FOOL PEOPLE HERE. DO NOT DELETE CONTRIBUTION AND ARGUMENTS IN THIS AREA. IT IS CALLED DISCUSSION. WE KNOW SOMEPEOPLE HATE TO DISCUSS AND THAT WHY THEY ARE CONTROVERSIAL. SO BRING YOUR PAPERS ON THE TABLE AT LEAST LIKE MEZZO-MEZZO. MEZZO-MEZZO IS SOMETIMES RIGHT, SOMETIMES WRONG, BUT AT LEAST HE MAKES SOME POINTS AND WHERE HE IS RIGHTS AND ADMITS WHERE HE IS WRONG AND HE IS NOT IMPOLITE TO THE DEGEE WHERE HE LOGS IN TO DELETE PEOPLE'S ARGUMENT IN THE DISCUSSION AREA. DO NOT DO IT AGAIN OK! BE GOOD..KAWAKIBI
khomeini is known to the earth planet inhabitants as Muslim, Ibn Baz says he is Not Muslim. Relevent piece added. wikipedia 101 should allow one to understand deleting this means a disaster..) in case missing Chubeat8. we have to agree on this one at least guys..then the debate will improve..
This debate is very healthy in shaping a great article. Parties are adiviced to use common sense. In any case, unless the recent debate since someone started the controversial fatwa hint, this article would be very dry. I definitely see a progress through this debate. Both or all of you, keep the debate going and keep the best selected and justified contributions growing in the article because frankly, the page before you print it you get one page that by skipping the line and no vibration in it..now the article is becoming more and more neutral and dynamic..keep up. KAWAKIBI
``A controversy or dispute is a matter of opinion over which parties actively disagree, argue, or debate. Controversies can range in size from private disputes between two individuals to large-scale disagreements between societies.
Perennial areas of controversy include religion, philosophy and politics.`` Now Given that Ibn Baz declared Khomeini Not a Mulslim, and given that Khomeini is a leading Muslim feagure, this makes it enough to add his Takfir Fatwa on Khomeini in the section of controversy. Nevertheless, Mezzo-Mezzo will say it is not controversial. May be in an other planet but in Wikipedia, it is a controversy. Again, The principle of being Neutral in Wikipedia overide the concensus. In other words, one can not sometime some article and if no one know about it it becomes good!! this is not the blue cheese I guess -Samneh- so Itaqallah and just be fair. This is an insult to the Sheikh not to show what he says. Bottom line he had a view and it was controversial. Worst, he could be wrong or maybe right..but that has been said.
Oh please, Muslims calling other Muslims non-Muslim you call it not controversial!!!!!what is it then, crazy people!! !!
This article of two and half pages caused a 25 pages debate. Rooughly because some elements do not want it diversified. I noticed that some contributors like user: Itaqallah speak no logic and even erase other people input on the talk page. Not only that, the user talks about primary and secondary sources!!as if this is an original research. What a redicule. The best way is to present the facts and the said by the subject and may be provide explanations from subsequent saying from the subject like they did in his Fatwa that he reversed about the deployment of foreigners. If not, then obviously the two and a half pages copy and paste from the subject official Saudi page will not worth a bus ticket in terms of academic value. That is to say, it gets you no where and in fact it back fires against the subject. People may find answers in Wikipedia, but if the the questions raise from its articles, Wikipedia loses the half time where the reader will look for the answers elsewhere. User: Swapant
look at this:
"" Shaikh ibn Baaz first developed notoriety and a reputation for integrity in the 1940s when he served time in prison as punishment for contradicting government policy with a fatwa declaring the employment of non- Muslims in the Persian Gulf forbidden by Islam. Ironically, roughly fifty years later, in a seeming reversal, he issued another fatwa allowing the deployment of non- Muslim troops on Saudi Arabian soil to defend the Kingdom from the Iraqi army. [1]
????????????????His reasoning: if the defense of the kingdom was left to Muslims, it would be the khawaarij who would no doubt take control, and the average Saudi citizen would have difficulty differentiating between the orthodox Salafee creed with that of the former. However, if the job were given to the non-Muslims, such confusion would be non-existent.??????????????? ""
Now if you look at the added material in the second paragraph by users totally approved by persons like Mezzo-Mezzo whom the later never question. You find the Shaikh issuing a Fatwa, after that he himself revered the Fatwa, yet, some one here may be close family member is trying to explain to us the reasoning behind the Shaikh mind change!! common, let us know where you get that baggage from..or leave things as they are.. User Swapant
I think that Swapant user is right and Mezzo-Mezzo who seem to devoted to this article rushing back and forth to keep as it was : The copy and paste of the Official Page of Ibn Baz based in Saudia Arabia backed by some out side Tablighi -IslamiST missionary or Islamist globalization website- Now Mezzo-Mezzo is running away to hide behind things like personal attacks and wiki conscesus and his supporter second half ITAQALLAh is covering him up and even suggesting the deletion of modt of the article. I think that the original user who introduced the fatwa section is to be given a great credit. This not a preaching post folks. Your deeds are revealed and your missionary paged evaluated, visited and even printed in some parts. So no matter what you do with future deletion etc..we have the proof that some body, pretending to be a wiki freedom fighter was using wikipedia to pass Islamist agenda. That person(s) know himself and we have his editions achived giving concensus to info linked to the said Islamist source. User:Shubeat8
Look at this one again:
Flat earth alegations Shaikh ibn Baaz is best known in the West from a report claiming he issued a fatwa declaring: "The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment."[13] He described this flat earth-report as "a pure lie"[14].
??????????/Several Muslim leaders argued that, in fact, he maintained not that the Earth is flat but that it is a stationary globe that the sun and moon revolve around, using Quranic literalism as evidence. (Discussion of the issues can be found in Flat Earth theories).??????????
Again, someone is trying to speak against the reality, the said by the Shaikh..Mezzo-Mezzo was always happy with this kind of Non-sense, and only interested in removing our referenced sections. Things can not be revealed more than that..it is obvious this artcle was a way to reflect official Saudi stand point. user: Swapant
Look at thsi example once again:
When Shaikh ibn Baaz died in 1999 the loss of "his erudition and reputation for intransigence" was so great the Saudi government was said to have "found itself staring into a vacuum" unable to find a figure able to "fill bin Baaz's shoes."[15] ??????????His influence on the Salafi movement was large, and most of the prominent judges and religious scholars of Saudi Arabia today are former students of his.????????????
Where does this bagage come from, no source no example..yet, Watchers like mentioned above seem happy with that and use wikipedia rules for the wrong purpose. User: Swapant
Firstly, and foremost, Many fo the arguements raised against mezzomezzo are half way linked to any real context. much of it is distorted which is why this section is being added to clear up some of these misconstrued matters.
it was said
"Our challenge to him is this. Please show us any Fatwa where Ibn Baz considers Muslims who do Dikr as Ok and as Muslims. KNowing that Dikr in the Suffi world is something that does not exist with original Islamic orthopraxy. There for specific Dikf for Bin Baz means all Dikr other than what Prohpet Muhammad did (Quran recitation, the five prayers). The rest according to him is Specific Dikr (inovated by Suffis) by specific people (Suffis). we challenge you to state here any Dikr as example permitted by Ibn Baaz that Suffis do! of course other than Quran recitation and 5 prayers plus Chaf3 and Witr..!!"
regarding the first wish
هل هناك أدعية وأذكار ليوم الجمعة، وأخرى ليوم السبت
Question:
There are some books which specifically mention Supplications and Adhkaar (words of remembrance) reported from the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وسلم), from them, for example, a book entitled “Ad-Duaa al-Mustajaab” in it are found supplications for every day of the week. There are Supplications and Adhkaar for Friday (Jumu’ah) and others for Saturday and the likes, so is adhering to these Adhkaar from innovation or are they from the Sunnah? هناك بعض الكتب الخاصة بالأذكار والأدعية الواردة عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم منها مثلا كتاب " الدعاء المستجاب" وقد وجدت فيه أدعية لكل يوم من أيام الأسبوع ، فهناك أدعية وأذكار ليوم الجمعة، وأخرى ليوم السبت، وهكذا . فهل الالتزام بهذه الأذكار بدعة أم هو من السنة؟
Answer:
This book is not depended upon and its author is a Haatibul-Layl [1] one who gathers together the corrupt and despicable with the good and fine; and the saheeh (authentic), the Da’eef (weak) and the Mawdoo’ (fabricated) [narrations altogether]. Hence it is not to be relied upon. And it is not permissible to single out any day or any night with anything except with evidence from al-Ma’soom (the infallible) (عليه الصلاة والسلام). So this book is not relied upon. Rather you should have recourse to other books, since that which is firmly established from the Messenger of Allaah (عليه الصلاة والسلام) from the Adhkaar and supplications that are mentioned in the morning and evening, then that is legislated, and that which is not [established] then its not [legislated]. As for the book “Ad-Duaa al-Mustajaab” then it is not relied upon since its author is not worthy of that, as we have mentioned that he gathers together the corrupt and despicable with the good and fine; and the saheeh (authentic), the Da’eef (weak) and the Mawdoo (fabricated) [narrations altogether]. Indeed we have written with regards to that [i.e authentic supplications and adhkaar] a small treatise which we have entitled “Tuhfatul-Akhyaar bimaa Sahha min ad-D’iyyah wal-Adhkaar” so refer to it if you wish.
هذا كتاب غير معتمد، وصاحبه حاطب ليل يجمع الغث والسمين، والصحيح والضعيف والموضوع فلا يعتمد عليه، ولا يجوز أن يخصص أي يوم أو أي ليلة بشيء إلا بدليل عن المعصوم عليه الصلاة والسلام. فهذا الكتاب لا يعتمد عليه، ولكن تراجع الكتب الأخرى فما ثبت عن رسول الله عليه الصلاة والسلام من أذكار أو أدعية تقال في الصباح أو المساء شرع ذلك، وما لا فلا.
وأما كتاب: "الدعاء المستجاب" فلا يعتمد عليه؟ لأن صاحبه ليس بأهل لذلك؟ لأنه كما قلنا يجمع بين الغث والسمين، والصحيح والضعيف والموضوع. وقد كتبنا في ذلك رسالة سميناها: "تحفة الأخيار بما صح من الأدعية والأذكار" فراجعها إن شئت.
الشيخ عبدالعزيز بن عبدالله بن باز
فتاوى نور على الدرب
So Yes Bin Baz still considered the one hwo performs dhikr, even in the innovated way that sufis tariqas practice as still muslims. That is because the mutamid positon within the madhaab of the hanaabliha is that the negation of emaan from the heart of the servant is strictly upon calling to others alogn with Allah. As for dhikr, this is somethign that has roots in either the sunnah, or other than it, and as a result it can be at best a sunni practice or a bida practice. Never did he negate the Islam of one who may have fallen into certain bida practises, because in order for bida to remove one from t he fold ofg Islam, that bida has to be mukafara.
2. Secondly, there is no "knowing" that sufi dhikr has roots in Islamic orthopraxy. There are two main positions regarding the practice of dhikr 1. restricting it to the sunnah of whatever the prophet verbatimly said 2. Those who brought into Islam adhkaar, for example, an-Nawawi's adkhaar.
The majority of people who follow the first is ahlul-hadeeth cholars, mainly form the hanaabliah who took on the hanbali asl "All worldly affairs is halaal unless there is a text prohibiting it and ALL religious worship (ibaadah) is prohibited unless there is a texts allowing for it.
Those who take on the second positon are most, if not all, the sufis groups and SOME scholars of the ahlu-sunnah i.e. an-Nawawee.
however, the defining criteria which brings support to either side always in Islam is "whatever the pious predecessors" have performed. If the salaf did not do it, then it cannot be considered Islam. Thus the evidence supported by the people who took the firs position are the clear proofs of the salaf's lack of performing such worship that was never legislated by the prophet. The people who took on board the second position only do so finding support through ijtihaad at best. Thus ijtihaad, when conflicting with source texts, is overided, thus the first position rules out he second regardless if a handful of sunni scholars have taken on such a position.
3. And lastly
when it was said
"We challenge you to state here any Dikr as example permitted by Ibn Baaz that Suffis do! of course other than Quran recitation and 5 prayers plus Chaf3 and Witr..!"
I say that can't literally, much less, logically happen.Because there is nothing that Bin Baz permits that Sufis do EXCEPT whatever was stated in the two sources. Hence you are requiring something from someone that can't possibly add up and can't happen
Regarding the Flat Earth Stance
it was said
" See, user Mezzo-Mezzo does not dear to delete this Fatwa of Ibn Baz on the section controversy :The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment`` If this man issues a religious decree stating that if you believe the earth is round you are to be punished and you are etheist!!! in other words you are non Muslim (unless there are etheist Muslims that Mezzo may come up with in his usual apologistic comments..if you believe the earth is not flat or square or round or even flat in a different way, you are non-Mulsim declared by Mr Ibn Baaz. So Mezzo is coming here to tell me that Shiites and Suffis who are Muslims who radically see god different that Mr Ibn Baaz, the later considers them Muslims. What a joke Mezzo, this whole mess up with this acticle must be stopped and the administrator must have a say in this..All the time this article was here Mezzo did not notice it was copied and pasted from Ibn Baaz Saudi based webpage. Just after criticism begun, Mezzo became a source finder and verificator!! I can not buy your honesty Mezzo. We will see you on Albaani as well. "
The fatwa comes from a blind man. It is regarding his understanding of a particular ayaah he took literally, while other scholars have mentioned his error. He only made a general ruling on someone disbeleiving based on his understanding of that ayaah, and not that his udnerstanding of that yaah is the rock solid understanding ayaah in question. There is a myriad of other scholars in our islamic history who have made such blunders, (of course by default of being human) and have made takfeer of those who deny what they ruled upon. Thus your single handedly singling him out for something neaqrly every other schoalr in Islamic history has done is nothing less than bigotry
It was errnorneously stated
"Regardless if Dikr is to Allah or Adonay that does not matter. Those are Muslims who do Dikr regardless of its details that the controversial Sheikh declared politheists. So are you speaking against yourselfhere."
It does matter.
Islam is "worship to Allah"
Polytheism is "worship to other than Allah"
According to what you said than anyone who does shikr is a muslim. This is like the irj'aa of Jahm ibn Safwaan who only n egated emaan (faith) from a person only if they did not know Allah. That means, chrsitians, jews, budhists, and every other disbeleiving nation is considered muslim, and according to this statement, you have congruity to Jahm's creed.
It was said
"You are right in correcting the mistake. Qadiriya is wrong, Qaadiyaniya is right. Bottom line Qaadianists are Muslims that the Sheikh considers Kafir. See your link please!"
who told you that. The entire Islamic nation, salafi,ash'ari,sufi, and every other group gathered in one fo the islamic ocuntries specficially dispensing a ruling on the qadianiyyah. It is unanimous agreement, from all hersiological groups that the qadiyanniyah areo ut the fold of Islam.
it was correctly said
"The Sheikh Bin Baz declaring knomeini Kafir just because he considers the Imams better the prophets is enough to say that the Sheikh considers the Shiite as Kafirs aswell"
in this you are right, and it woul;d have been wrogn for Mezzo to say opposite of this. BInbaz, along with a myriad of other schoalrs, be they salafi or not, all considered the leaders of the shi'aa as kuffar, and that the commoners to be merely dhaal (misguided) and that proof of kufr has to be shown to such a commoner before the ruling of kufr be applied.
it was said
"From Chubeat8: Mezzo, you are very questionable. Who in the world does not find banning birthday celebration not controversial"
The non muslim world. Not the muslim world. But since your speaking on behalf of Islam, then likewise if it is not contraversial for muslims, it should be contraversial for one who prefesses islam like yourself, unless of course such people who prefess islam fall under the prophetic tradition which was sided earlier
"My Ummah would follow the kuffaar (i.e. Jews and Christians) step-by-step; so much so that if they entered a lizard's hole we would enter it right after them."
and lastly, it is of no consequence whether his views be expressed in public rather those who accept his dawah would appreciate it. Just remember that whatever views he expresses that is contaminated with the contaimants of his opposers, there will be those who will decrypt whatever fundamental errors come from what opposition the shaykh had thus the reality of his beleif made clear for all to see.
1- Very good point raised in the last insertion about the issue of Takfir. The user uses evidence as already verified from Ibn Baaz Fatwas that he does not declare non-Muslim those who do other kinds of supplications and prayers and Dikr that is not authentic for him. Now why we maintain that Ibn Baz considers Suffis and Shias non Muslims! here is why:
a.Suffis call on people for help in their Adkar. Example: Madad Mada Ya Rasulallah or Madada madad Ya Ali. Same for Shia sayying: Ya husayn. In brief, they believe that they can call for those person -dead- to help them. That is already calling on other than Allah. For Ibn Baz, calling other than Allah is Polytheism and of course Polytheism is not Tahid-Monotheism- that makes Suffis and Shias Kafirs.
b. an other example, Ibn Baz declared Khomeini as Kafir because he believe Imams are better than prophets. All Shias including their leading most prominent Marjaas have the same belief. Doesn`t that make them Kafit in the eyes of Ibn Baz!!!!
2- On Flat earth, here you legitilmize our claim that he said what he said. Stating that is no singling out. When I started this discussion it was there already anyways..
I like your last insertion. Keep the dialogue going User:Chubeat8
here is an example of MezzoMezzo lying about me. In the article, section Ayatollah Khomeini which I helped maintaining; I said that Ibn Baz considers Khomeini Kafir. Here is the proof of what Ibn Baz has said: ``The Islaamic ruling regarding (Ayatollah) Khomeini
Question: What is the Islaamic ruling regarding (Ayatollah) Khomeini?
Response: Khomeini has a book in which he mentions the excellence of the Imaams (Hassan and Hussein et al) of the family of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) over and above the Prophets and the Messengers (`alayhim as-salaam); (So) based upon this (statement of his) he is not a Muslim.
Shaykh al-Albaanee al-Haawee min Fataawa ash-Shaykh al-Albaanee – Page 349``
You call this original research! :-) how funny! oooooh I forgot to sign sorry!! user:chubeat8
It was said
"a.Suffis call on people for help in their Adkar. Example: Madad Mada Ya Rasulallah or Madada madad Ya Ali. Same for Shia sayying: Ya husayn. In brief, they believe that they can call for those person -dead- to help them. That is already calling on other than Allah. For Ibn Baz, calling other than Allah is Polytheism and of course Polytheism is not Tahid-Monotheism- that makes Suffis and Shias Kafirs."
this is an incorrect analysis becauase the one who made this statement must have become unaware of the fact that regarding the principles of distributing fatwaa (rulings) particualrly regarding groups and individuals, then while in principle, it is a general beleif that such and such person holds that whoever (general) does something, is by default a disbeleiver, then this is a general ruling that does not apply specifically on any individual. The only time a ruling is fixed upon a particualrr individual or a group is upon analysis of their beleifs and principles.
so with regard to the shia, it is the general beleif of all sunnis, not just Bin Baz, that their beleif principlly is disbeleif, it quite different from any individual among the sunni nation to declare any particualry individual as a disbeleiver unl;ess detailed evidences are brought to such an individual and the removal of osbticles be performed (the rules for the removal of obsticles have been used in Islamic juristic rulings extracted from the prophetc tradition that obsticles include such as sanity, the lack of the age of awareness and understanding, confusion, and ignorance.)
As for the sufis, there are different branches of sufis, a myriad of views that all contribute to a spectrum inherent in the sufi theological system, and on that basis different sufi tariqas are of varying levels with regard to their congruity to the orthodox practice of Islam, some being marginally in error (according to orthodox Islam) and some being far worse in error (as deemed by traditional orthodox scholars). Thus is becaome an error for any side of people with reagrd to their partisan views to paint all sufis accross the board and such and such, particularly when no one sufi group fully agrees with another, many of whom declare others as heretics. user:al-boriqee
In the section on Osama Bin Laden, the contributor used a suspicious missionary onesided website as a reference. This should be deleted asap for its non-conformity with Wikipedia rules. PLease refer to: http://www.troid.org/articles/manhaj/
the center is called The center for the reign of Islamic preaching. KAWAKIBI—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.139.38 ( talk • contribs)
thanks for pointing that out..please keep posting with us.. Chubeat8—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.139.38 ( talk • contribs)
IMPORTANT: THE REFERED TO WEBSITE WAS CLOSED AFTER MENTIONING IT HERE. IT IS NO LONGER ACCESSIBLE AND ALL RELATED MATERIALS SHOULD BE REMOVED.. chubeat8 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.139.38 ( talk) 06:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Here I can not understand how can this insertion be personal attack!!! This is a verified missionary by all startdars website. Instead of deleting you who argue otherwise, tell us what you think about this as a reference. We are waiting for courageous people to be in charge to answerus.. user:Chubeat8I—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.139.38 ( talk • contribs)
aah, ok MezzoMezzo, so those who preach Shiism and criticize Ibn Baz do not violate wiki policies and therefore we may use them as source. you, then, have no right to reserve the right to use Sunnite preaching websites and at the same time refuse those well documented Shiites refrences. You , I think, have fallen in the mother of contradictions already. How can can you re-establish editting credibility. Preaching credibility, that I give you.. Chubeat8
Very hot discussion page. This will generate a lot of interesting participations. I take no sides, both make their arguments. Just to have both sides represented in the article the same way they are represented in discussion could be a great idea.
Jean-François Lafleure—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.139.38 ( talk • contribs)
Thanks for the comment, you have the lamest attempt to preach The Reign Of Islam here in wikipedia..This public computer and people talk to each other..do not forget to add that this ine was not igned by the preceeding Blablabla ..... Chubeat8
My room is not public like Adult Breast Feeding in Wahabi Islam. See: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21805283-663,00.html We do not do business in the rooms of Tora Bora like the Islamist Reign supporters do. We show our IP first and we put our arguments in the table after. Often we get lamed arguments and Zig-Zag citations of Islamist Dawa preachers like the one you inserted previously. Chubeat8
universities in north america are 24 hours unlike Saudia..are you logging from Saudia!! or Londonistan! never mind, what is important is that I will leave the aticle as you did it at your last contribution unders the condition that is remains flagged as disputed..you like it! tell me.. chubeat8
I think that Chubeat8 refered you to the wrong new source. Alazhar has nothing to do with Ibn Baz. Yet, Albany, influenced by Ibn Baz has authorized Adult Breastfeeding and someone earlier refered in Albany article to his voice recording on youtube stating so. So bottom line, Chubeat8 made the wrong reference in this issue, yet, it carries a truth. I see it more relevent to be added to Albany article than Ibn Baz. Swapant