Thanks for bringing this to my attention ;) I believe it’s relevant enough for inclusion, do not anticipate an article will be created about Umar ibn Marwan himself due to the lack of source material. May even create a redirect for him linking to the Ancestry section of the article.
Al Ameer (
talk)
04:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Review comments
Lead section
I would amend
c.778 using {{circa|lk=no|778}} to avoid overlinking
Could readers be confused with similar sounding names, e.g.
Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan? Consider adding the hatnote {{For|other people with the same name|Abd al-Malik (disambiguation){{!}}Abdul Malik}}
Link Alejandro García Sanjuán (note spelling) using {{Ill|Alejandro García Sanjuán|es}}
the surviving, mostly less eminent, Umayyads to arrive in al-Andalus (Islamic Spain) in the aftermath – consider amending to something like ‘the mostly less eminent Umayyads to arrive in al-Andalus (Islamic Spain). He survived…’
Broke this up, but the point about "less eminent" is less about Abd al-Malik, and more about the Umayyads in general who ended up in Spain. Few, if any, had been noteworthy members of the dynasty; many were known in the 'eastern' sources by name only and they played no discernible role before their arrival in Spain. Among these, mostly less eminent, Umayyad arrivals, Abd al-Malik was probably one of the most notable.
Al Ameer (
talk)
04:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
To help reduce the length of the sentence, I would amend Abd al-Malik gained the confidence of Abd al-Rahman and became... to ‘Abd al-Malik gained the confidence of Abd al-Rahman. He became…’
As it may be unclear to some readers that mawali is singular, I would improve the prose by amending his mawali Badr and Abu Uthman Ubayd Allah ibn Uthman to ‘Abu Uthman Ubayd Allah ibn Uthman and his mawali Badr’
N OK, so that means to his mawali Badr and Abu Uthman Ubayd Allah ibn Uthman needs to be clearer, as I might not be the only reader to misunderstand. How about 'to his two mawali, Badr and Abu Uthman Ubayd Allah ibn Uthman'? AM
At some point is vague and seems redundant here. Simply ‘Abd al-Malik was replaced’?
from the post – ‘from his post’ sounds better imo
Amend the peninsula to 'the Iberian peninsula'? (linked)
Consider amending the Friday prayer, a traditional acknowledgement of Islamic sovereignty, in 757 to ‘the Friday prayer—a traditional acknowledgement of Islamic sovereignty—in 757', to help clarify the text.
Is afterward needed?
condemned and also seems redundant
the marriage of his son – it needs to be clearer whose son is being referred to here
Replace strengthened and consecrated with 'increased'? (consecrated surely means something else)
A fifth-generation direct descendant is possibly excessively detailed, and could be reduced to ‘Another descendant’
served as the governor of Zaragoza – it might be useful to readers for you to include when he served
Link pretender
his descendants - 'Abd al-Malik's descendants' (for the sake of clarification)
All done. Should we mention the names of all his sons here (a few have been left out as they played no noteworthy roles), or no need?
Al Ameer (
talk)
04:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Imo it's not necessary, only notable offspring should be mentioned. AM
5 Bibliography
Link Maribel Fierro; Hugh N. Kennedy
Add 'language=it to Morelli, as the article is in Italian
It's unclear if Ref 3 (the doctorate thesis) can be used to verify the text - see
WP:SCHOLARSHIP. I would allow it only if you are sure no better source could be used.
First two points done. On the thesis, I generally would not use such a source unless the author is (or rather became) noted in their field, but since the author is just translating the original text (and this is a limited and relatively minor piece of info), I figured it would slide. I would rather cite the original source (page 98 of the 1922 edition of
Ibn Abd al-Hakam's Futuh), which is readily available online, but that page (and most of the edition) is still in Arabic—only the annotations are in English. Since I cannot read Arabic well, I cannot vouch that it’s actually in there, so I’m using that thesis instead, at least for the time being.
Al Ameer (
talk)
04:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I quite understand—the thesis citation is quite relevant here. AM
On hold
An interesting topic, and well written—all the points I have listed are relatively minor. I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 7 February to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. Regards,
Amitchell125 (
talk)
08:47, 30 January 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Amitchell125: Thank you for taking this up. I appreciate your recommendations. Please let me know if the recent changes are ok and if there is anything else that needs to be done. Cheers
Al Ameer (
talk)
04:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Thanks for bringing this to my attention ;) I believe it’s relevant enough for inclusion, do not anticipate an article will be created about Umar ibn Marwan himself due to the lack of source material. May even create a redirect for him linking to the Ancestry section of the article.
Al Ameer (
talk)
04:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Review comments
Lead section
I would amend
c.778 using {{circa|lk=no|778}} to avoid overlinking
Could readers be confused with similar sounding names, e.g.
Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan? Consider adding the hatnote {{For|other people with the same name|Abd al-Malik (disambiguation){{!}}Abdul Malik}}
Link Alejandro García Sanjuán (note spelling) using {{Ill|Alejandro García Sanjuán|es}}
the surviving, mostly less eminent, Umayyads to arrive in al-Andalus (Islamic Spain) in the aftermath – consider amending to something like ‘the mostly less eminent Umayyads to arrive in al-Andalus (Islamic Spain). He survived…’
Broke this up, but the point about "less eminent" is less about Abd al-Malik, and more about the Umayyads in general who ended up in Spain. Few, if any, had been noteworthy members of the dynasty; many were known in the 'eastern' sources by name only and they played no discernible role before their arrival in Spain. Among these, mostly less eminent, Umayyad arrivals, Abd al-Malik was probably one of the most notable.
Al Ameer (
talk)
04:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
To help reduce the length of the sentence, I would amend Abd al-Malik gained the confidence of Abd al-Rahman and became... to ‘Abd al-Malik gained the confidence of Abd al-Rahman. He became…’
As it may be unclear to some readers that mawali is singular, I would improve the prose by amending his mawali Badr and Abu Uthman Ubayd Allah ibn Uthman to ‘Abu Uthman Ubayd Allah ibn Uthman and his mawali Badr’
N OK, so that means to his mawali Badr and Abu Uthman Ubayd Allah ibn Uthman needs to be clearer, as I might not be the only reader to misunderstand. How about 'to his two mawali, Badr and Abu Uthman Ubayd Allah ibn Uthman'? AM
At some point is vague and seems redundant here. Simply ‘Abd al-Malik was replaced’?
from the post – ‘from his post’ sounds better imo
Amend the peninsula to 'the Iberian peninsula'? (linked)
Consider amending the Friday prayer, a traditional acknowledgement of Islamic sovereignty, in 757 to ‘the Friday prayer—a traditional acknowledgement of Islamic sovereignty—in 757', to help clarify the text.
Is afterward needed?
condemned and also seems redundant
the marriage of his son – it needs to be clearer whose son is being referred to here
Replace strengthened and consecrated with 'increased'? (consecrated surely means something else)
A fifth-generation direct descendant is possibly excessively detailed, and could be reduced to ‘Another descendant’
served as the governor of Zaragoza – it might be useful to readers for you to include when he served
Link pretender
his descendants - 'Abd al-Malik's descendants' (for the sake of clarification)
All done. Should we mention the names of all his sons here (a few have been left out as they played no noteworthy roles), or no need?
Al Ameer (
talk)
04:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Imo it's not necessary, only notable offspring should be mentioned. AM
5 Bibliography
Link Maribel Fierro; Hugh N. Kennedy
Add 'language=it to Morelli, as the article is in Italian
It's unclear if Ref 3 (the doctorate thesis) can be used to verify the text - see
WP:SCHOLARSHIP. I would allow it only if you are sure no better source could be used.
First two points done. On the thesis, I generally would not use such a source unless the author is (or rather became) noted in their field, but since the author is just translating the original text (and this is a limited and relatively minor piece of info), I figured it would slide. I would rather cite the original source (page 98 of the 1922 edition of
Ibn Abd al-Hakam's Futuh), which is readily available online, but that page (and most of the edition) is still in Arabic—only the annotations are in English. Since I cannot read Arabic well, I cannot vouch that it’s actually in there, so I’m using that thesis instead, at least for the time being.
Al Ameer (
talk)
04:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I quite understand—the thesis citation is quite relevant here. AM
On hold
An interesting topic, and well written—all the points I have listed are relatively minor. I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 7 February to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. Regards,
Amitchell125 (
talk)
08:47, 30 January 2022 (UTC)reply
@
Amitchell125: Thank you for taking this up. I appreciate your recommendations. Please let me know if the recent changes are ok and if there is anything else that needs to be done. Cheers
Al Ameer (
talk)
04:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)reply