This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
the DI list clearly says that the signatories are listed either by affiliation (at the time of signature) or university were they earned their PhD degree. Thus I removed unsourced criticism sentence. The list is not updated with present affiliation. The assertion that the DI choses which one to incorporate cannot be made so clearly. Usually it is the signatory who gives such information. Also, that this practice is criticized is not backed up by a citation.
Furthermore, the statement that this kind of list is 'confusing' is a mere opinion of the editor and not NPOV. Northfox 23:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Filll wrote:
revert: you have to make a case for this on the talk page and get consensus if you want to make such a claim. Sorry.
Northfox answers:
First of all, I appreciate you recent changes to this article on June 5th. It improved quite a bit. Of course I do not appreciate you reverted of my change :-)
I always thought that somebody who makes an assertion has to do the explaining. Even though you might not have added the sentences in question, you reverted my change back to the original, so I assume that you agree with that assertion in the old version.
1. Thus please explain to me how you know that it is the DI that does the choosing (alma mater vs affiliation at the time of signature). Any sources? 2. How do you know that in case a person has had several affiliations, DI choses the most prestigeous one? Any sources?
3. being confused is a very subjective statement. Please explain why I should be confused by DI's policy to either accept the name of the alma mater or present affiliation. Both should be a valid option (e.g. for retired professors, academics who went to industry, and vice versa, etc). Please make a convincing case that the general reader should be confused by this.
I also find it very interesting that I am the first editor of this page that needs permission to change some contents. Up to my entry, the discussion page was empty.
Finally, it is definitely not me who is making a claim, I was just reverting unsubstantiated claims of others. Northfox 06:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The sentence in the main article
Another criticism was that though such statements such as "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" commonly include the institutional affiliations of signatories for purposes of identification, the Discovery Institute often chooses the most prestigious institutions to list over the institutions with which the individual is presently affiliated. Thus the institutions listed for Raymond G. Bohlin, Fazale Rana, and Jonathan Wells, for example, were the University of Texas, Ohio University, and the University of California, Berkeley, where they earned their degrees, rather than their current affiliations: Probe Ministries for Bohlin, the Reasons to Believe Ministry for Rana, and the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture for Wells. Similarly confusing lists of local scientists were circulated during controversies over evolution education in Georgia, New Mexico, Ohio, and Texas.
is a near verbatim quote of ref 21:
Such statements commonly note the institutional affiliations of signatories for purposes of identification. But this statement strategically listed either the institution that granted a signatory's PhD or the institutions with which the individual is presently affiliated. Thus the institutions listed for Raymond G. Bohlin, Fazale Rana, and Jonathan Wells, for example, were the University of Texas, Ohio University, and the University of California, Berkeley, where they earned their degrees, rather than their current affiliations: Probe Ministries for Bohlin, the Reasons to Believe ministry for Rana, and the CSC for Wells. During controversies over evolution education in Georgia, New Mexico, Ohio, and Texas, similar lists of local scientists were circulated.
I always thought it is WP policy to mark quotes accordingly and to use quotes sparingly.
see Wikipedia:Citing_sources http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources
Why was this not done here? Ref 21 is not a verifiable source for the claim that similar lists (and the original referenced article does not even include the adjective 'confusing'!) were circulated. When, where,by whom, what kind of lists were circulated? Ref 21 also does not say that DI choses the affiliation to be presented. That the authors listed their affiliations strategically is also not clear from ref 21.
Hence I request that my edit is restored. Northfox 08:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I have now addressed the complaints. The text is rewritten to make it less similar to Forrest's original article. Forrest's original article is a perfectly good source for this material since it is a respected academic publication, not some ranting drooling creationist rag. I have replaced words like "confusing" with more appropriate and negative descriptions. This tactic is deliberately misleading and worse. It is not clear WHO did the choice of affiliation, but the choice is certainly consistent with the DI having done it and I note this in the text. After all, it happened over and over again, so it looks like it was coordinated, particularly since it is not standard practice to do this. Even if it wasn't, all we have to do is verify what Forrest claimed in a good publication, which we can and did.-- Filll 17:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Some comments:
Northfox 01:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the weasel words recently added. Forrest's is describing a easily verified fact and her testimony in the Dover trial was given full weight in that ruling, so its reasonable and accurate to keep the original phrasing. Adding weasel words to make uncomfortable details more palatable for one side of an issue is not called for by policy, but accurately describing verifiable facts is. FeloniousMonk 16:52, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
These are my final comments. Oh really? I guess not. Oh well. So I gather you have decided that a new policy that WP has to follow is to always write in verbatim quotes, never to paraphrase or rephrase. So when will you be writing a WP article to give us this new policy?--
Filll
00:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
As reported at Creation and evolution in public education#Recent developments in state education programs, proponents still seem to be presenting this list to school boards. Why don't they listen to the DI saying they don't want ID taught in schools?..... dave souza, talk 19:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a dispute over the verifiability and POV in the criticism section.05:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC) (an unsigned comment from Northfox)
The institutions appearing in the list are the result of a conscious choice by the Discovery Institute to only present the most prestigious affiliations available for an individual. Neither from the document A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism itself nor from the cited references in the criticism section is it clear that the Discovery Institute made the choice. Northfox 05:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Similarly confusing and misleading lists of local scientists were circulated during controversies over evolution education in Georgia, New Mexico, Ohio, and Texas. Another editor, SheffieldSteel, has suggested using poorly defined or ill thought out instead, and I have suggested to omit the adjectives altogether. Northfox 05:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Southeastern Louisiana University philosophy professor Barbara Forrest pointed out what appears as deliberate misrepresentation of the institutional affiliations of signatories of the statement "A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism". She said that the institutions appearing in the list are consistent with a conscious choice by the Discovery Institute or the signatory of the most prestigious affiliations available for a signatory. .... According to Forrest, similar lists of local scientists were circulated during controversies over evolution education in Georgia, New Mexico, Ohio, and Texas. Northfox 05:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
It is pretty hard to AGF when one surveys the past activity on the article and on the talk page. Sorry.-- Filll 13:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it may be worth noting that the petition's definition of "Darwinism": "random mutation and natural selection" is far more limited than the current scientific conception of the Theory of Evolution which, as discussed in the Evolution article, also includes Recombination as a source of variation, and Genetic Drift and Genetic Flow as mechanisms. This means that the petition's definition of "Darwinism" is a strawman, whose ability "to [fully] account for the complexity of life," without these additional mechanisms and source of variation, the mainstream scientific community would likewise be "skeptical" of, meaning that the "dissent" of the petition is non-existent. Hrafn42 15:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's a first draft of what I'd be suggesting (addition in bold):
Hrafn42 16:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
user:Filll asked the right question: a list of what?. I am just taking it to the logical next step: A list of what kind of people?. The list is exclusive. What is the criterion to join? A doctoral degree. This is also mentioned prominently on the list itself. The word scientist is used in the wiki article, but it is a bit ambiguous, since being a scientist does not require a doctorate. What is the rationale not to mention doctoral degree holder in the article?
User:ConfuciusOrnis wrote in his revert summary: (have a look at the history next time.) I did, but couldn't find any discussion of why the doctoral degree should not be mentioned. Sorry. There was, though, a discussion about current affiliation vs institution were the degree was earned, but that is a different issue. 210.128.52.4 02:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
If think an important question is a doctoral degree in what? Many of these purported 'scientists' have their doctoral degrees in Engineering, Mathematics and Philosophy, so are in fact not scientists. Hrafn42 03:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> Northfox, you assert that the
scientist entry in wikipedia shows
mathematicians and
engineers as included in the scientist category. Where does it say this of engineers? It does say "There is no sharp distinction between science and engineering... and some engineers do first-rate scientific research.", but that's not what you're asserting. It also says that the term was coined by
William Whewell, well known as a theologian. Wonder why the signatories are so shy about their day jobs as theologians? ...
dave souza,
talk
17:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Northfox:
Hrafn42 18:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.
<undent>There are lots of faculty members without a doctoral degree. Some of those listed are retired, or their former positions are listed, with no indication of their current position. What appears to have been done is to push the boundaries as far as possible and list whatever present or past affiliation might appear as impressive as possible to someone who does not know anything, like a member of the public. I do not think we need to assist the DI in their promotion efforts here. That is not our job.-- Filll 12:44, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
It would appear that we have, to date, two sources for the claim that all the signatories have doctorates:
Either way, I would suggest that the claim lacks a reliable source. Hrafn42 13:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
On Northfox's suggestions:
12% of signatories have "Biology" or "Genetics" in their description (case sensitive). 17% have Engineering, 14% have Chemistry, 10% have Physics, 6% have Medicine, 5% have Mathematics and 5% have Biochemistry. Of course there may be some overlap, and numerous subcategories not included, but this does give a general gist. Hrafn42 08:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
I would like to point out a very confusing and non systematic way by which the terms darwinism and the theory of evolution are being used. They are used like they are one and the same, which is not true. Sometimes the arguements against this petition are based on how scientists view evolution, but not specifically about darwinism. For instance, Lynn Margulis, a well known american biologist (see endosymbiotic theory) who believes in evolution but does not believe in darwinism (she thinks neodarwinism is a minor twentieth-century religious sect within the sprawling religious persuasion of Anglo-Saxon Biology"). I think this article should be more careful about this very important difference. Darwinism and the theory of evolution are not one and the same. There are some very specific differences therefore the differences in terminology. the petition strongly points this out: they are skeptical of claims of the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Many of them might fully agree with Lynn Margulis endosymbiotic theory or the effect of virii on evolution (see the evolution of mammals by Luis R Villarreal of the University of California Irvine).
finally I would like to give an example that I think has been affected by the above criteria: " The theory of evolution is overwhelmingly accepted throughout the scientific community.[10] Professor Brian Alters of McGill University, an expert in the creation-evolution controversy, is quoted in an article published by the NIH as stating that "99.9 percent of scientists accept evolution". but do they only accept darwinism or do they accept margulis'endosymbiotic theory as well or the effect of virii on evolution? therefore I really think you should make a more clear distinction between evolutionary theory and darwinism |
Last edited at 08:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 20:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
the DI list clearly says that the signatories are listed either by affiliation (at the time of signature) or university were they earned their PhD degree. Thus I removed unsourced criticism sentence. The list is not updated with present affiliation. The assertion that the DI choses which one to incorporate cannot be made so clearly. Usually it is the signatory who gives such information. Also, that this practice is criticized is not backed up by a citation.
Furthermore, the statement that this kind of list is 'confusing' is a mere opinion of the editor and not NPOV. Northfox 23:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Filll wrote:
revert: you have to make a case for this on the talk page and get consensus if you want to make such a claim. Sorry.
Northfox answers:
First of all, I appreciate you recent changes to this article on June 5th. It improved quite a bit. Of course I do not appreciate you reverted of my change :-)
I always thought that somebody who makes an assertion has to do the explaining. Even though you might not have added the sentences in question, you reverted my change back to the original, so I assume that you agree with that assertion in the old version.
1. Thus please explain to me how you know that it is the DI that does the choosing (alma mater vs affiliation at the time of signature). Any sources? 2. How do you know that in case a person has had several affiliations, DI choses the most prestigeous one? Any sources?
3. being confused is a very subjective statement. Please explain why I should be confused by DI's policy to either accept the name of the alma mater or present affiliation. Both should be a valid option (e.g. for retired professors, academics who went to industry, and vice versa, etc). Please make a convincing case that the general reader should be confused by this.
I also find it very interesting that I am the first editor of this page that needs permission to change some contents. Up to my entry, the discussion page was empty.
Finally, it is definitely not me who is making a claim, I was just reverting unsubstantiated claims of others. Northfox 06:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The sentence in the main article
Another criticism was that though such statements such as "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" commonly include the institutional affiliations of signatories for purposes of identification, the Discovery Institute often chooses the most prestigious institutions to list over the institutions with which the individual is presently affiliated. Thus the institutions listed for Raymond G. Bohlin, Fazale Rana, and Jonathan Wells, for example, were the University of Texas, Ohio University, and the University of California, Berkeley, where they earned their degrees, rather than their current affiliations: Probe Ministries for Bohlin, the Reasons to Believe Ministry for Rana, and the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture for Wells. Similarly confusing lists of local scientists were circulated during controversies over evolution education in Georgia, New Mexico, Ohio, and Texas.
is a near verbatim quote of ref 21:
Such statements commonly note the institutional affiliations of signatories for purposes of identification. But this statement strategically listed either the institution that granted a signatory's PhD or the institutions with which the individual is presently affiliated. Thus the institutions listed for Raymond G. Bohlin, Fazale Rana, and Jonathan Wells, for example, were the University of Texas, Ohio University, and the University of California, Berkeley, where they earned their degrees, rather than their current affiliations: Probe Ministries for Bohlin, the Reasons to Believe ministry for Rana, and the CSC for Wells. During controversies over evolution education in Georgia, New Mexico, Ohio, and Texas, similar lists of local scientists were circulated.
I always thought it is WP policy to mark quotes accordingly and to use quotes sparingly.
see Wikipedia:Citing_sources http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources
Why was this not done here? Ref 21 is not a verifiable source for the claim that similar lists (and the original referenced article does not even include the adjective 'confusing'!) were circulated. When, where,by whom, what kind of lists were circulated? Ref 21 also does not say that DI choses the affiliation to be presented. That the authors listed their affiliations strategically is also not clear from ref 21.
Hence I request that my edit is restored. Northfox 08:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I have now addressed the complaints. The text is rewritten to make it less similar to Forrest's original article. Forrest's original article is a perfectly good source for this material since it is a respected academic publication, not some ranting drooling creationist rag. I have replaced words like "confusing" with more appropriate and negative descriptions. This tactic is deliberately misleading and worse. It is not clear WHO did the choice of affiliation, but the choice is certainly consistent with the DI having done it and I note this in the text. After all, it happened over and over again, so it looks like it was coordinated, particularly since it is not standard practice to do this. Even if it wasn't, all we have to do is verify what Forrest claimed in a good publication, which we can and did.-- Filll 17:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Some comments:
Northfox 01:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the weasel words recently added. Forrest's is describing a easily verified fact and her testimony in the Dover trial was given full weight in that ruling, so its reasonable and accurate to keep the original phrasing. Adding weasel words to make uncomfortable details more palatable for one side of an issue is not called for by policy, but accurately describing verifiable facts is. FeloniousMonk 16:52, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
These are my final comments. Oh really? I guess not. Oh well. So I gather you have decided that a new policy that WP has to follow is to always write in verbatim quotes, never to paraphrase or rephrase. So when will you be writing a WP article to give us this new policy?--
Filll
00:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
As reported at Creation and evolution in public education#Recent developments in state education programs, proponents still seem to be presenting this list to school boards. Why don't they listen to the DI saying they don't want ID taught in schools?..... dave souza, talk 19:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a dispute over the verifiability and POV in the criticism section.05:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC) (an unsigned comment from Northfox)
The institutions appearing in the list are the result of a conscious choice by the Discovery Institute to only present the most prestigious affiliations available for an individual. Neither from the document A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism itself nor from the cited references in the criticism section is it clear that the Discovery Institute made the choice. Northfox 05:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Similarly confusing and misleading lists of local scientists were circulated during controversies over evolution education in Georgia, New Mexico, Ohio, and Texas. Another editor, SheffieldSteel, has suggested using poorly defined or ill thought out instead, and I have suggested to omit the adjectives altogether. Northfox 05:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Southeastern Louisiana University philosophy professor Barbara Forrest pointed out what appears as deliberate misrepresentation of the institutional affiliations of signatories of the statement "A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism". She said that the institutions appearing in the list are consistent with a conscious choice by the Discovery Institute or the signatory of the most prestigious affiliations available for a signatory. .... According to Forrest, similar lists of local scientists were circulated during controversies over evolution education in Georgia, New Mexico, Ohio, and Texas. Northfox 05:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
It is pretty hard to AGF when one surveys the past activity on the article and on the talk page. Sorry.-- Filll 13:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it may be worth noting that the petition's definition of "Darwinism": "random mutation and natural selection" is far more limited than the current scientific conception of the Theory of Evolution which, as discussed in the Evolution article, also includes Recombination as a source of variation, and Genetic Drift and Genetic Flow as mechanisms. This means that the petition's definition of "Darwinism" is a strawman, whose ability "to [fully] account for the complexity of life," without these additional mechanisms and source of variation, the mainstream scientific community would likewise be "skeptical" of, meaning that the "dissent" of the petition is non-existent. Hrafn42 15:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's a first draft of what I'd be suggesting (addition in bold):
Hrafn42 16:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
user:Filll asked the right question: a list of what?. I am just taking it to the logical next step: A list of what kind of people?. The list is exclusive. What is the criterion to join? A doctoral degree. This is also mentioned prominently on the list itself. The word scientist is used in the wiki article, but it is a bit ambiguous, since being a scientist does not require a doctorate. What is the rationale not to mention doctoral degree holder in the article?
User:ConfuciusOrnis wrote in his revert summary: (have a look at the history next time.) I did, but couldn't find any discussion of why the doctoral degree should not be mentioned. Sorry. There was, though, a discussion about current affiliation vs institution were the degree was earned, but that is a different issue. 210.128.52.4 02:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
If think an important question is a doctoral degree in what? Many of these purported 'scientists' have their doctoral degrees in Engineering, Mathematics and Philosophy, so are in fact not scientists. Hrafn42 03:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> Northfox, you assert that the
scientist entry in wikipedia shows
mathematicians and
engineers as included in the scientist category. Where does it say this of engineers? It does say "There is no sharp distinction between science and engineering... and some engineers do first-rate scientific research.", but that's not what you're asserting. It also says that the term was coined by
William Whewell, well known as a theologian. Wonder why the signatories are so shy about their day jobs as theologians? ...
dave souza,
talk
17:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Northfox:
Hrafn42 18:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.
<undent>There are lots of faculty members without a doctoral degree. Some of those listed are retired, or their former positions are listed, with no indication of their current position. What appears to have been done is to push the boundaries as far as possible and list whatever present or past affiliation might appear as impressive as possible to someone who does not know anything, like a member of the public. I do not think we need to assist the DI in their promotion efforts here. That is not our job.-- Filll 12:44, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
It would appear that we have, to date, two sources for the claim that all the signatories have doctorates:
Either way, I would suggest that the claim lacks a reliable source. Hrafn42 13:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
On Northfox's suggestions:
12% of signatories have "Biology" or "Genetics" in their description (case sensitive). 17% have Engineering, 14% have Chemistry, 10% have Physics, 6% have Medicine, 5% have Mathematics and 5% have Biochemistry. Of course there may be some overlap, and numerous subcategories not included, but this does give a general gist. Hrafn42 08:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
---|---|
I would like to point out a very confusing and non systematic way by which the terms darwinism and the theory of evolution are being used. They are used like they are one and the same, which is not true. Sometimes the arguements against this petition are based on how scientists view evolution, but not specifically about darwinism. For instance, Lynn Margulis, a well known american biologist (see endosymbiotic theory) who believes in evolution but does not believe in darwinism (she thinks neodarwinism is a minor twentieth-century religious sect within the sprawling religious persuasion of Anglo-Saxon Biology"). I think this article should be more careful about this very important difference. Darwinism and the theory of evolution are not one and the same. There are some very specific differences therefore the differences in terminology. the petition strongly points this out: they are skeptical of claims of the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Many of them might fully agree with Lynn Margulis endosymbiotic theory or the effect of virii on evolution (see the evolution of mammals by Luis R Villarreal of the University of California Irvine).
finally I would like to give an example that I think has been affected by the above criteria: " The theory of evolution is overwhelmingly accepted throughout the scientific community.[10] Professor Brian Alters of McGill University, an expert in the creation-evolution controversy, is quoted in an article published by the NIH as stating that "99.9 percent of scientists accept evolution". but do they only accept darwinism or do they accept margulis'endosymbiotic theory as well or the effect of virii on evolution? therefore I really think you should make a more clear distinction between evolutionary theory and darwinism |
Last edited at 08:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 20:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)