This article is
related to the Harold B. Lee Library holdings. Learn more about this collaborative project to improve coverage related to the BYU library's holdings, and how you can help
here.Harold B. Lee LibraryWikipedia:GLAM/Harold B. Lee LibraryTemplate:WikiProject Harold B. Lee LibraryHarold B. Lee Library-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Novels, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
novels,
novellas,
novelettes and
short stories on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the general Project discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.NovelsWikipedia:WikiProject NovelsTemplate:WikiProject Novelsnovel articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Mormonism and the
Latter Day Saint movement on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Latter Day Saint movementWikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movementTemplate:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movementLatter Day Saint movement articles
The
Wikimedia Foundation's
Terms of Use require that editors disclose their "employer, client, and affiliation" with respect to any paid contribution; see
WP:PAID. For advice about reviewing paid contributions, see
WP:COIRESPONSE.
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
... that Latter-Day Saint Apostle
John A. Widtsoe gave A Little Lower than the Angels a negative review for
Virginia Sorensen's portrayal of
Joseph Smith as an "ordinary, insipid milk and water figure"? Source: Howe, Susan Elizabeth (2002). "Virginia Sorensen's A Little Lower Than the Angels and John A. Widtsoe; A Lesson in Literary History". Annual (Association for Mormon letters): 87–94.
ALT1:... that
Virginia Sorensen's main characters in A Little Lower than the Angels were based on her own grandparents, who brought books across the plains as pioneers? Source: Sorensen, Virgina (1980). "'If You Are a Writer, You Write!': an interview with Virginia Sorensen". Dialogue. 13: 17–36.
New enough, long enough, neutrally written, well referenced. As most sources are offline, unable to check for close paraphrasing. No QPQ needed for nominator with less than 5 DYK credits.
Please look at how I edited the article to bring it in line with other Wikipedia book articles.
Neither hook is accurate. ALT0 is rather wordy and includes a quote that doesn't appear in the article. ALT1 is so-so in terms of interest but the article says it was her great-grandparents, not her grandparents. If you have any corrections or new hook ideas, please add them to the bottom of this thread. Thanks,
Yoninah (
talk)
00:06, 16 November 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Valereee: this is no different than other editors who have (byu) in their usernames. They use the LDS library to write about LDS subjects, but try to be factual and impartial. This is a new editor who is still learning Wikipedia style.
Yoninah (
talk)
19:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Yoninah, do we have consensus on whether this is a major COI or not? I've seen Rachel Helps around before, but the statement that "I am an employee at the Harold B. Lee library at Brigham Young University (BYU), hired to write and edit Wikipedia articles related to the University and its history" is pretty plain. Have we had an RfC on this at COIN?
—valereee (
talk)
20:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Yoninah, I'm really uncomfortable with it. If we haven't had one, maybe we need an RfC. I believe the Mormons are a well-intentioned lot. I don't believe they'd intentionally violate our rules. That doesn't mean they don't have a COI that needs to be examined.
—valereee (
talk)
20:13, 19 November 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Yoninah: Thank you for your help with this article! This is my first original article, and definitely was showing it. How flexible can these hooks be grammar-wise? I know that they need to be quotes from the article itself, but most of the sentences in the article don't make sense on their own without the context/antecedents. Should I edit the article to repeat book and person names more frequently? My next best idea for a hook would be from the "Publication" section: "The success of the novel outside of Utah was credited in some part to the open way Sorensen portrayed this early Mormon culture in a human, unthreatening way." I'll work with Rachel to get you something better. Thank you again!
Bassknight(byu) (
talk)
19:57, 30 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Naruto, the article isn't neutral, or rather the lead isn't. This isn't an "impartial" account of plural marriage but a highly critical one. See, for example, Moos (2005), p.
132.
SarahSV(talk)22:30, 23 December 2020 (UTC)reply
This
edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.
Specific text to be added or removed: remove cleanup banner warning that the page may not be neutral because of page contributions
Reason for the change: I believe the page to be neutral, but I also believe that someone else should evaluate that. Full disclosure: I work for the BYU Library and I have two BYU students who work under me. We've been contributing to Wikipedia for many years. We are paid to edit pages related to our collections, and we strive to adhere to Wikipedia's policies, especially NPOV. Our main goal is to improve the quality of pages by summarizing and citing many of the reliable sources we have in our library. Back in 2020, I tried to hire a student to work over the pandemic, but I wasn't able to train her as thoroughly as normally. She described Sorensen's treatment of polygamy as "impartial", which SaraSV objected to (see above DYK review). Around that time, SaraSV was highly criticizing my contributions, to the point that she said that I should stop editing, and I decided to let the matter of the DYK drop. Recently, a more experienced student of mine has been adding more research to the page, which I believe is more complex than simply portraying polygamy positively or negatively. From RGreen's edits: "Rather than creating an argument on the truth of Mormonism, Sorensen rather focuses on the effects that the religion has on its people." I also removed the word "impartial" from the lead to simply mention that the novel addresses polygamy.
This article is
related to the Harold B. Lee Library holdings. Learn more about this collaborative project to improve coverage related to the BYU library's holdings, and how you can help
here.Harold B. Lee LibraryWikipedia:GLAM/Harold B. Lee LibraryTemplate:WikiProject Harold B. Lee LibraryHarold B. Lee Library-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Novels, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
novels,
novellas,
novelettes and
short stories on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the general Project discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.NovelsWikipedia:WikiProject NovelsTemplate:WikiProject Novelsnovel articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Mormonism and the
Latter Day Saint movement on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Latter Day Saint movementWikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movementTemplate:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movementLatter Day Saint movement articles
The
Wikimedia Foundation's
Terms of Use require that editors disclose their "employer, client, and affiliation" with respect to any paid contribution; see
WP:PAID. For advice about reviewing paid contributions, see
WP:COIRESPONSE.
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
... that Latter-Day Saint Apostle
John A. Widtsoe gave A Little Lower than the Angels a negative review for
Virginia Sorensen's portrayal of
Joseph Smith as an "ordinary, insipid milk and water figure"? Source: Howe, Susan Elizabeth (2002). "Virginia Sorensen's A Little Lower Than the Angels and John A. Widtsoe; A Lesson in Literary History". Annual (Association for Mormon letters): 87–94.
ALT1:... that
Virginia Sorensen's main characters in A Little Lower than the Angels were based on her own grandparents, who brought books across the plains as pioneers? Source: Sorensen, Virgina (1980). "'If You Are a Writer, You Write!': an interview with Virginia Sorensen". Dialogue. 13: 17–36.
New enough, long enough, neutrally written, well referenced. As most sources are offline, unable to check for close paraphrasing. No QPQ needed for nominator with less than 5 DYK credits.
Please look at how I edited the article to bring it in line with other Wikipedia book articles.
Neither hook is accurate. ALT0 is rather wordy and includes a quote that doesn't appear in the article. ALT1 is so-so in terms of interest but the article says it was her great-grandparents, not her grandparents. If you have any corrections or new hook ideas, please add them to the bottom of this thread. Thanks,
Yoninah (
talk)
00:06, 16 November 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Valereee: this is no different than other editors who have (byu) in their usernames. They use the LDS library to write about LDS subjects, but try to be factual and impartial. This is a new editor who is still learning Wikipedia style.
Yoninah (
talk)
19:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Yoninah, do we have consensus on whether this is a major COI or not? I've seen Rachel Helps around before, but the statement that "I am an employee at the Harold B. Lee library at Brigham Young University (BYU), hired to write and edit Wikipedia articles related to the University and its history" is pretty plain. Have we had an RfC on this at COIN?
—valereee (
talk)
20:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Yoninah, I'm really uncomfortable with it. If we haven't had one, maybe we need an RfC. I believe the Mormons are a well-intentioned lot. I don't believe they'd intentionally violate our rules. That doesn't mean they don't have a COI that needs to be examined.
—valereee (
talk)
20:13, 19 November 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Yoninah: Thank you for your help with this article! This is my first original article, and definitely was showing it. How flexible can these hooks be grammar-wise? I know that they need to be quotes from the article itself, but most of the sentences in the article don't make sense on their own without the context/antecedents. Should I edit the article to repeat book and person names more frequently? My next best idea for a hook would be from the "Publication" section: "The success of the novel outside of Utah was credited in some part to the open way Sorensen portrayed this early Mormon culture in a human, unthreatening way." I'll work with Rachel to get you something better. Thank you again!
Bassknight(byu) (
talk)
19:57, 30 November 2020 (UTC)reply
Naruto, the article isn't neutral, or rather the lead isn't. This isn't an "impartial" account of plural marriage but a highly critical one. See, for example, Moos (2005), p.
132.
SarahSV(talk)22:30, 23 December 2020 (UTC)reply
This
edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.
Specific text to be added or removed: remove cleanup banner warning that the page may not be neutral because of page contributions
Reason for the change: I believe the page to be neutral, but I also believe that someone else should evaluate that. Full disclosure: I work for the BYU Library and I have two BYU students who work under me. We've been contributing to Wikipedia for many years. We are paid to edit pages related to our collections, and we strive to adhere to Wikipedia's policies, especially NPOV. Our main goal is to improve the quality of pages by summarizing and citing many of the reliable sources we have in our library. Back in 2020, I tried to hire a student to work over the pandemic, but I wasn't able to train her as thoroughly as normally. She described Sorensen's treatment of polygamy as "impartial", which SaraSV objected to (see above DYK review). Around that time, SaraSV was highly criticizing my contributions, to the point that she said that I should stop editing, and I decided to let the matter of the DYK drop. Recently, a more experienced student of mine has been adding more research to the page, which I believe is more complex than simply portraying polygamy positively or negatively. From RGreen's edits: "Rather than creating an argument on the truth of Mormonism, Sorensen rather focuses on the effects that the religion has on its people." I also removed the word "impartial" from the lead to simply mention that the novel addresses polygamy.