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Oh, dear. So what? So 'it has been'. By whom? And why is their opinion important? And why is Waugh important? And how he is even remotely relevant to a dystopic novel? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:28, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I think a fair number of people will come to this article looking for assistance with the Latin/Hebrew/German in the book. How much (if any) of that should be covered here? Can anybody take a stab at
for example? Thanks,
One would think so (see above). I don't have my copy here, but the Hebrew graphic does not quite say SHEMA YISROEL ADONAI ELOHEINU ADONAI ECHOD.
It says SEMAH [sin for shin] YISDOEL [daleth for resh] then the daleth+apostrophe ["chupchik"] in lieu of the usual letters for the ineffable name (said, when said, as the circumlocution "adonai" or "adonoi," "lord" ("adon")--I think, "their lord" or to the orthodox, except during legal prayer, "adeshem," not unrelated to "hashem," "the name"), which I don't know to comment on; then ELOKAINU, which would be the orthodox circumlocution for "eloheinu," "our God" ["el," god, as in beth-el, etc.]; then the daleth+chupchik again for the ineffable name/adonai, then ESOD [sof for ches].
the daleth+apostrophe is a standard way of referring to the ineffable name in writing, as is a hey+apostrophe. Mezukak ( talk) 23:19, 5 June 2017 (UTC)mezukak 6/5/17
The mistaken letters, sin for shin, daleth for resh, and sof for ches are copying "mistakes," "typos"; the wrong letters resemble the right ones that they replace.
The qof (had to look up) for the heh (k for h) in "elokeinu" is not a "typo" but a transcription of someone saying the common circumlocution in a recitation outside of prayer; the transcriber misses the point or has some other reason that I can't fathom. The orthodox don't write "God" in magazine articles or correspondence; they write "G-d." Elokeinu with a quf is also a standard way of writing; see previous comment-- Mezukak ( talk) 23:19, 5 June 2017 (UTC)mezukak 6/5/17
The Brothers' of St. Leibowitz mission is to preserve sacred documents, not unlike Torah scribes, but they have to work with what they have; the story is about the destruction of culture and its loss for lack of maintenance. In my day, you would get xerographic copies unto the tenth generation, speckled and decayed; in this generation (2009), the copying machines are digital perfectionists, but we get viral emails unto the hundredth, yea ten-thousandth generation, whose intellectual content is speckled and decayed. Stuart Filler ( talk) 12:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
This is all insightful, although it's a shame it is put in a separate section from the comments above. The sentence echoes the start of the Hebrew Decalogue("ten words"), which was turned by Christians into the first commandment of the Ten Commandments by adding "thou shalt not put other gods before me"(and various other similar translations). In the Jewish tradition it is not a commandment, rather just a straightforward truth. Which brings us up to The Name, because this variation of the Tetragrammaton here makes it unacceptable as a prayer in Orthodox Judaism(I'm not sure about "heh" and "resh", if they are just real typos in some texts). It therefore neither fits into Catholic nor Jewish orthodoxy, but it is a theological statement, a non-traditional one. In other words I think it is very purposefully ambiguous, ultimately requiring interpretation of the reader Cuvtixo ( talk) 20:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
In the Analysis section, it talks about the Rachel interaction with Zerchi possibly being in his mind. I think that the article needs to note the fact that Brother Joshua thought he saw Rachel smile (or was it nod?) well before this incident. Not sure where it fits in, though.
I have seen the sequel even translated in bookshops. It should be mentioned that it was continued or published. -- Error 02:22 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Oh, Christ, that's a future tense. Gah! Meelar 05:28, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Ahoy everyone I silently dropped the "black comedy" link, on the grounds that I thought that calling ACfL a "black comedy" was such a bizarre statement that it had been made in error. I see it's been restored, which means that someone disagreed.
In support of my position, I'd like to cite the blurb text on my copy, which calls ACfL "shocking", "powerful", and "striking", with nary a word about humor, black or otherwise. I think that ACfL is a very important work in the canon of SF--one, I think, of the very first post-apocalyptic novels--but that it is not funny nor intended to be funny.
What do you all think? Nightsky 11:11, 10 May 2004
Kernos ( talk) 16:23, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
"Eventually, approximately a decade after the discovery of the shelter, Leibowitz is canonized, based mostly on the evidence discovered in the shelter."
"Eventually, approximately a decade after the discovery of the shelter, Leibowitz is canonized, based mostly on the evidence discovered in the shelter." - this could only have been written by someone who didn't read the book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:32, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I read the article and was also struck by "dark comedy" as being inappropriate -- but obviously it's been discussed here. I have inserted a proposed compromise, that acknowledges the book's dark comedy while not confining it to that genre (I would argue that much of the final third, especially the interactions of the abbot with Mrs. Grales and the woman who is eventually euthanized, is far too serious for it to have been intended as satire or comedy by Miller). I think dark comedy is appropriate in describing many scenes in the book, but saying it is a dark comedy is an inadequate description of the book. If my compromise is insufficient, can we agree on another wording that at least removes the bald assertion that the novel fits perfectly into that category? Jwrosenzweig 19:13, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I've responded to earlier comments that I think this deeply satirical, but I'd also like to explain "dark comedy", because I don't think any of the 2004 editors here had really considered what or why an American Catholic author would write this in 1959(date of publication). Firstly, Duck and Cover was still being taught in American schools and right wing demagogues were talking about full-scale nuclear war being winnable. The general public was generally unaware that the "hydrogen bombs", from as early as 1952, produced the energy equivalent of about 10 megatons — or 10 million tons of TNT compared to 16 kilotons(16,000 tons) of Little Boy on Hiroshima. Shortly after publication of ACfL, Soviet Union in 1961 dropped the Tsar bomb which created a 50 megaton explosion — nearly 1,500 times more powerful than the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. So, I think that pretty "dark", from a scientifically literate writer, and not simply *moments* of dark comedy. As far as satire, firstly the title itself juxtaposes a term for a very Christian liturgical psalm-like song, a Canticle, with a typically Jewish name, "Leibowitz". The contrast is absurd if not outright humorous, without denigrating either. Also the book was published ten years before Vatican II, so that all Catholic masses would be spoken in Latin, and the majority of American Catholics would listen and repeat phrases and prayers in Latin with little comprehension. The misunderstanding of liturgy was a contemporary problem, not just an issue for Catholic monks of medieval times, nor just abstract speculation of what clergy might face 600 years after a nuclear apocalypse. As Miller was an American Catholic convert, I believe he was being satirical, as misinterpretations and misunderstandings were an everyday part of his faith. Also the Fact that Leibowitz had to give up looking for his wife, Emily, who dies while being kept from the interior of a fallout shelter, which collapses in a cave-in: pretty f'n darkly humourous, no? I guess in the 21st century, that the collapse of civilization after nuclear war is common sense, the distance of old Catholic tradition from American life, etc, makes this seem not so dark and not satirical. But this was published in 1959 America, not the 21st century. Cuvtixo ( talk) 02:10, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
One of the quotations includes this line: "Sending at least three Bishops, at least." Is the duplication in the original, or did it get added when the quotation was imported to the article? My copy of the book isnt' readily accessible so I can't volunteer to check it. JamesMLane 07:46, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Brother Francis was from Utah, but that actually implies that the Abbey is not. Other points about the location, it's within striking distance of Denver, which puts it east of the Rocky Mountains (not Utah), and close enough to the plains that the nomads aren't travelling through other individuals territories much. My suspicion is that it’s actually near Albuquerque, but somewhere in New Mexico is probably all we can definitively say.
White Sands has nada to do with it. This is 1000s of years later. However, the geography clearly places it in NM. Anyone who places it in UT hasn't read the book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:35, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
"The third section, Fiat Voluntas Tua, takes a strong stance against euthanasia (assisted suicide)" - is this really true? The main character (the abbot) certainly does, but the book itself seems to be rather objective.
I think you miss the point either way by calling Miller pro-euthanasia or anti-eutanasia; he simply isn't engaging in that debate. I think it's very clear that he believes that euthanasia is a sin or perhaps rather that someone who 'offers up their pain to God' is admirable in their courage and devotion. But he isn't interested in condemning those who practice it. He is doing something more like recording his sorrow over the fallen condition of human beings, sorrow both over the woman who takes her child to be killed and sorrow over the abbot and his folly and his impotent rage. In any case, you cheapen what is going on by reducing it to a position in the contemporary legal debate. TheLambtonWorm ( talk) 11:45, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
The Plot summary section is way too long. Despite what appears to have become a common practice in WP synopses for novel and film articles,
WikiProject Novels explicitly states that plot summaries "should be short and an integral part of the article" and "should be no more than three or four paragraphs." A good example of this per the Project is seen in
Atlas Shrugged. Consequently, I propose CfL's summary be similarly condensed.
—
Jim Dunning
talk : 03:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I really think the Poet should be mentioned in both the summarary and character list. He was in two of the three sections of the book, and a major driving force of Fiat Lux. Czolgolz 22:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
This article has some of good material in it, but suffers significantly from disorganization (it reads as a hodge-podge of random thoughts). WikiProject Novels has some excellent ideas for article content and structure at WikiProject Novels/Style guidelines that may help us out in improving the article further.
Here's some of the relevant structure suggested by the guidelines and comments vis-a-vis the article as it stands now:
Finally, the current Quotations section should go. It is unencyclopedic and is just a form of trivia. It might be of interest if CfL had famous quotes that had migrated into mainstream culture (like "grok" from Stranger in a Strange Land), but there is nothing. — Removed!
I'm going to start working on this, but others please jump in with changes and thoughts.
—
Jim Dunning
talk : 04:58, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I think this article is ready to move to
GA status and am soliciting help from any skilled editors. A number of revisions have been made in the past few weeks to position it for a successful nomination process. Any assistance in making changes and/or suggestions will be appreciated. Thank you.
Jim Dunning |
talk 03:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I will be GA reviewing A Canticle for Leibowitz . I have not read the article yet so expect about two days before I write my review. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast ( talk) 15:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I really enjoyed reading this - so much so that I'm going to hunt down the novel. Unless I'm missing something, this article meets Wikipedia:Good article criteria, Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction), and Wikipedia:Writing better articles. I suggest trying to take it to Wikipedia:Featured articles as I think it would stand a chance; of course, I could be wrong on that. Really good job. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast ( talk) 02:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
This sounds like a fascinating article; Science Fiction isn't really my thing, so when I mentioned it to my boyfriend he threw his hands up and said "I can't believe you've never heard of it!" Sigh. :) Anyway, in preparation for PR and possibly FAC, here are some suggestions to think on:
I think that's it for now. As for picky MOS-ness, everything seems to be formatted quickly from what I can see, including the refs. The images all contain proper documentation. The lead section will need updating when more thematic elements are added to the article, and you should also consider adding the sequel and adaptation there to satisfy WP:LEAD. Thanks for the interesting read! Let me know if you need any clarifications or further comments. María ( habla con migo) 17:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I've removed this article from inclusion in
WikiProject Texas since none of the story's events takes place in Texas. The question was raised on the project's
Talk page about a month ago, and although there has been only a single response since then, it appeared to be in agreement.
Jim Dunning |
talk 10:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
"none of the story's events takes place in Texas" - LOL. Have you read the book?
This is an automated message regarding an image used on this page. The image File:A Canticle For Lebowitz.jpg, found on A Canticle for Leibowitz, has been nominated for deletion because it does not meet Wikipedia image policy. Please see the image description page for more details. If this message was sent in error (that is, the image is not up for deletion, or was left on the wrong talk page), please contact this bot's operator. STBotI ( talk) 14:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
the link to Terry Bisson's article (reference 18) is a dead link. I tried editing it - but couldn't find the right place (sorry, a bit of a wiki novice). If someone could enter the new link it would be great. Here it is: http://www.sff.net/people/TBisson/miller.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.228.182.147 ( talk) 17:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
No one has mentioned one of the most intriguing themes, that the story parables the bible. Leibowitz is the false prophet while Mrs. Grales is Mary (mother of Christ) and Rachel is Christ returned to earth for the apocalypse. 69.159.66.38 ( talk) 22:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Err, "to back up such a claim". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:40, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I notice that the Wandering Jew claims (in the year 3174) to be 3209 years old (well, via the Leibowitzian monastery's abbot, anyhow). 3209-3174= 35: that dates this Wanderer's birth to 34 BCE, well before Jesus was born and well before the Second Temple was destroyed. (See 1997 edition, page 139). In another paragraph, a couple of pages later, the Old Jew's age is boosted by another 2199 years, kicking his birth back to 2233 BCE. That suggests that the Old Jew is not just the Wandering Jew of Christian lore, but a personification of the Jewish people, perhaps all the way back to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Unfortunately, Miller sees the Jew from a Christian point of view, and he has him mentioning his seeing of the Messiah once before (a Christian interpretation of the Messiah!) (see page 174, 1997 edition), and thus fails to quite grok Judaism. An actual Jewish wanderer would probably have insisted that he had not seen "Him" just yet. But other than that, interesting dialogue between representatives of Christianity and Judaism in Fiat Lux. 192.12.88.7 ( talk) 02:52, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Long time scale scenarios are worth comparison and contrast with other works that exist in long time scales. Such works have a unique sensitivity to fine energy gradients, in the time and energy trade-off under the action. It is probably no coincidence that Miller set "A Canticle for Leibowitz" 600 years after 20th century destruction. After all, the Koran devolved to the Islamic prophet Mohammed 600 years after Rome fell. That number of centuries is distinct: it is the atomic number of carbon, six. It implies the Koran is in a sense an update of the religions that emerged from Rome, including the Christian. At a shrewd guess, the Koran brought the revelation, now understood in depth, that even tiny molecular interactions take place in the stellar cosmology, which we call the electrodynamics, and the long-run penalties for ignoring that can be extinction.
Going backward, earlier works exist dating back to the Papyri of Ani, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and others. Subsequent works too, fit into such analysis. Magna Charta is an example. Since the printing press, though, such works are too numerous to count. SyntheticET ( talk) 00:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
600 years after Rome fell - on which planet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
Looking at articles about novels that attained FA on this list, I notice that Uncle Tom's Cabin separates out info about its major characters from the plot summary. I think doing that here would improve this article. Sub-sections about Leibowitz, Benjamin, and Mrs. Grales/Rachel would be particularly useful. Sharktopus talk 19:18, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
We should confirm or correct some first edition data including the cover image. If we confirm then ISFDB needs correction for it displays a different cover image (whose own description does not adequately ID it) and gives pub date October 1959 with some support. (See the Notes field of A Canticle for Leibowitz (first paperback ed.) publication contents at the Internet Speculative Fiction Database.) -- P64 ( talk) 22:01, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Years after having heard bits of the story on NPR, I finally read the book. It is a good book, and the truth is I'm probably more prepared to understand it than I would have been thirty years ago. But right from the start I came across an intriguing error--or not--that has me thinking. The characters that the wandering "pilgrim" makes on the rock are (in the library edition I've read) clearly a "lamedh" and an "ayin." Later the Abbot identifies them as a "lamedh" and a "sadhe." Neither one of these interpretations would lead one to anything like "Liebowitz," which would have to end in a "tsamekh." The visual difference between "ayin" and "tsamekh" are enough to drive me nuts--but the Abbot's definitely wrong.
Which leads to a weird question: Whose error is this? Miller's? It's possible: these could be amateur Hebrew mistakes, and he makes another one later when he puts a definite "tsamekh" in the middle of the name Eleazar (which I'm guessing would be a "zayin"--confused yet?). Ah, but what if it's deliberate? What if the Abbot's mistake is intentional in the author? The monks of the order don't know everything about the texts in their keeping and misunderstand much of it. Witness Francis' discovery regarding blueprints! Maybe the Abbot is perpetuating an error about Hebrew orthography. Maybe the order would have made more progress faster if they had gotten their pronunciation correct!
Or maybe I just have better lighting. Without access to a monk-powered arc lamp, I had to hold the book up to the sunlight (horrors!) to make sure I was seeing what I thought I saw. Or perhaps the best explanation is the simplest one: the editor got it wrong in this edition.
I haven't found anybody dealing with this discrepancy. Any comments? KJPurscell ( talk) 15:13, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
The hyperlinked note #15 displays a definition of "Thon" as equivalent to "professor". I never got that out of the text of the novel, so I was curious about the source of that definition. I had always imagined that "Thon" was rather a corruption of or derivative of the Spanish "Don", some thing that seemed reasonable, given the centuries that had passed and the Spanish cultural influence on the Southwest. Miller includes an anecdote that illustrates a similar etymological development, in the story about the catfish "B'dollos" inhabiting a lake where another monk was martyred.
TheBaron0530 ( talk) 03:47, 15 October 2012 (UTC)TheBaron0530 23:46 ET 14Oct12
Dons are academics in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:45, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I have noticed that the reference to the "Albertian Order" includes a link to the Albertus Magnus article, but I don't see the connection between this person who happened to be called Albertus (there is a disambiguation page including several other notable people of that name) and this book - I had imagined that, perhaps, the "Albertian Order" was a reference to Albert Einstein, whose name may have been preserved in the 26th century as a figure of importance PaulHammond ( talk) 15:37, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Two things: Firstly, what is the difference between being subhuman in capacity for reason and intelligence? Couldn't we just say, "capacity for reason" and leave it at that? Secondly, were the mutants also physically very different than regular humans? Looked very different?-- Jrm2007 ( talk) 12:46, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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Fome the "Background" sectoin: " Eventually, whether by Leibowitz' intention or simply through the sanctification of repetition, his supporters and followers became a monastic order, the "Albertian Order of Leibowitz", dedicated to preserving knowledge." This implies that it is not know how the AOL was founded, which is incorrect.
In the book it clearly states that Leibowitz originally sought shelter from the mobs by hiding out at a Christian monastary. Then, when he became convinced that his wife was really dead, he took monastic orders, and became a priest, at which point he sought and received permission from the Church to found the new order in the southwestern desert.
The monastary has no reason to be uncertain of its own origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 ( talk) 21:45, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
"As Zerchi tries to conditionally baptize Rachel..."
Rachel? Who the hell is Rachel? Mrs. Grales secret identity? Or is her name Rachel Grales? And if she's married, Why would she need to be baptized? Very unclear from the context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 ( talk) 01:22, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
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Article policies
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Oh, dear. So what? So 'it has been'. By whom? And why is their opinion important? And why is Waugh important? And how he is even remotely relevant to a dystopic novel? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:28, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I think a fair number of people will come to this article looking for assistance with the Latin/Hebrew/German in the book. How much (if any) of that should be covered here? Can anybody take a stab at
for example? Thanks,
One would think so (see above). I don't have my copy here, but the Hebrew graphic does not quite say SHEMA YISROEL ADONAI ELOHEINU ADONAI ECHOD.
It says SEMAH [sin for shin] YISDOEL [daleth for resh] then the daleth+apostrophe ["chupchik"] in lieu of the usual letters for the ineffable name (said, when said, as the circumlocution "adonai" or "adonoi," "lord" ("adon")--I think, "their lord" or to the orthodox, except during legal prayer, "adeshem," not unrelated to "hashem," "the name"), which I don't know to comment on; then ELOKAINU, which would be the orthodox circumlocution for "eloheinu," "our God" ["el," god, as in beth-el, etc.]; then the daleth+chupchik again for the ineffable name/adonai, then ESOD [sof for ches].
the daleth+apostrophe is a standard way of referring to the ineffable name in writing, as is a hey+apostrophe. Mezukak ( talk) 23:19, 5 June 2017 (UTC)mezukak 6/5/17
The mistaken letters, sin for shin, daleth for resh, and sof for ches are copying "mistakes," "typos"; the wrong letters resemble the right ones that they replace.
The qof (had to look up) for the heh (k for h) in "elokeinu" is not a "typo" but a transcription of someone saying the common circumlocution in a recitation outside of prayer; the transcriber misses the point or has some other reason that I can't fathom. The orthodox don't write "God" in magazine articles or correspondence; they write "G-d." Elokeinu with a quf is also a standard way of writing; see previous comment-- Mezukak ( talk) 23:19, 5 June 2017 (UTC)mezukak 6/5/17
The Brothers' of St. Leibowitz mission is to preserve sacred documents, not unlike Torah scribes, but they have to work with what they have; the story is about the destruction of culture and its loss for lack of maintenance. In my day, you would get xerographic copies unto the tenth generation, speckled and decayed; in this generation (2009), the copying machines are digital perfectionists, but we get viral emails unto the hundredth, yea ten-thousandth generation, whose intellectual content is speckled and decayed. Stuart Filler ( talk) 12:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
This is all insightful, although it's a shame it is put in a separate section from the comments above. The sentence echoes the start of the Hebrew Decalogue("ten words"), which was turned by Christians into the first commandment of the Ten Commandments by adding "thou shalt not put other gods before me"(and various other similar translations). In the Jewish tradition it is not a commandment, rather just a straightforward truth. Which brings us up to The Name, because this variation of the Tetragrammaton here makes it unacceptable as a prayer in Orthodox Judaism(I'm not sure about "heh" and "resh", if they are just real typos in some texts). It therefore neither fits into Catholic nor Jewish orthodoxy, but it is a theological statement, a non-traditional one. In other words I think it is very purposefully ambiguous, ultimately requiring interpretation of the reader Cuvtixo ( talk) 20:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
In the Analysis section, it talks about the Rachel interaction with Zerchi possibly being in his mind. I think that the article needs to note the fact that Brother Joshua thought he saw Rachel smile (or was it nod?) well before this incident. Not sure where it fits in, though.
I have seen the sequel even translated in bookshops. It should be mentioned that it was continued or published. -- Error 02:22 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Oh, Christ, that's a future tense. Gah! Meelar 05:28, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Ahoy everyone I silently dropped the "black comedy" link, on the grounds that I thought that calling ACfL a "black comedy" was such a bizarre statement that it had been made in error. I see it's been restored, which means that someone disagreed.
In support of my position, I'd like to cite the blurb text on my copy, which calls ACfL "shocking", "powerful", and "striking", with nary a word about humor, black or otherwise. I think that ACfL is a very important work in the canon of SF--one, I think, of the very first post-apocalyptic novels--but that it is not funny nor intended to be funny.
What do you all think? Nightsky 11:11, 10 May 2004
Kernos ( talk) 16:23, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
"Eventually, approximately a decade after the discovery of the shelter, Leibowitz is canonized, based mostly on the evidence discovered in the shelter."
"Eventually, approximately a decade after the discovery of the shelter, Leibowitz is canonized, based mostly on the evidence discovered in the shelter." - this could only have been written by someone who didn't read the book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:32, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I read the article and was also struck by "dark comedy" as being inappropriate -- but obviously it's been discussed here. I have inserted a proposed compromise, that acknowledges the book's dark comedy while not confining it to that genre (I would argue that much of the final third, especially the interactions of the abbot with Mrs. Grales and the woman who is eventually euthanized, is far too serious for it to have been intended as satire or comedy by Miller). I think dark comedy is appropriate in describing many scenes in the book, but saying it is a dark comedy is an inadequate description of the book. If my compromise is insufficient, can we agree on another wording that at least removes the bald assertion that the novel fits perfectly into that category? Jwrosenzweig 19:13, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I've responded to earlier comments that I think this deeply satirical, but I'd also like to explain "dark comedy", because I don't think any of the 2004 editors here had really considered what or why an American Catholic author would write this in 1959(date of publication). Firstly, Duck and Cover was still being taught in American schools and right wing demagogues were talking about full-scale nuclear war being winnable. The general public was generally unaware that the "hydrogen bombs", from as early as 1952, produced the energy equivalent of about 10 megatons — or 10 million tons of TNT compared to 16 kilotons(16,000 tons) of Little Boy on Hiroshima. Shortly after publication of ACfL, Soviet Union in 1961 dropped the Tsar bomb which created a 50 megaton explosion — nearly 1,500 times more powerful than the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. So, I think that pretty "dark", from a scientifically literate writer, and not simply *moments* of dark comedy. As far as satire, firstly the title itself juxtaposes a term for a very Christian liturgical psalm-like song, a Canticle, with a typically Jewish name, "Leibowitz". The contrast is absurd if not outright humorous, without denigrating either. Also the book was published ten years before Vatican II, so that all Catholic masses would be spoken in Latin, and the majority of American Catholics would listen and repeat phrases and prayers in Latin with little comprehension. The misunderstanding of liturgy was a contemporary problem, not just an issue for Catholic monks of medieval times, nor just abstract speculation of what clergy might face 600 years after a nuclear apocalypse. As Miller was an American Catholic convert, I believe he was being satirical, as misinterpretations and misunderstandings were an everyday part of his faith. Also the Fact that Leibowitz had to give up looking for his wife, Emily, who dies while being kept from the interior of a fallout shelter, which collapses in a cave-in: pretty f'n darkly humourous, no? I guess in the 21st century, that the collapse of civilization after nuclear war is common sense, the distance of old Catholic tradition from American life, etc, makes this seem not so dark and not satirical. But this was published in 1959 America, not the 21st century. Cuvtixo ( talk) 02:10, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
One of the quotations includes this line: "Sending at least three Bishops, at least." Is the duplication in the original, or did it get added when the quotation was imported to the article? My copy of the book isnt' readily accessible so I can't volunteer to check it. JamesMLane 07:46, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Brother Francis was from Utah, but that actually implies that the Abbey is not. Other points about the location, it's within striking distance of Denver, which puts it east of the Rocky Mountains (not Utah), and close enough to the plains that the nomads aren't travelling through other individuals territories much. My suspicion is that it’s actually near Albuquerque, but somewhere in New Mexico is probably all we can definitively say.
White Sands has nada to do with it. This is 1000s of years later. However, the geography clearly places it in NM. Anyone who places it in UT hasn't read the book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:35, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
"The third section, Fiat Voluntas Tua, takes a strong stance against euthanasia (assisted suicide)" - is this really true? The main character (the abbot) certainly does, but the book itself seems to be rather objective.
I think you miss the point either way by calling Miller pro-euthanasia or anti-eutanasia; he simply isn't engaging in that debate. I think it's very clear that he believes that euthanasia is a sin or perhaps rather that someone who 'offers up their pain to God' is admirable in their courage and devotion. But he isn't interested in condemning those who practice it. He is doing something more like recording his sorrow over the fallen condition of human beings, sorrow both over the woman who takes her child to be killed and sorrow over the abbot and his folly and his impotent rage. In any case, you cheapen what is going on by reducing it to a position in the contemporary legal debate. TheLambtonWorm ( talk) 11:45, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
The Plot summary section is way too long. Despite what appears to have become a common practice in WP synopses for novel and film articles,
WikiProject Novels explicitly states that plot summaries "should be short and an integral part of the article" and "should be no more than three or four paragraphs." A good example of this per the Project is seen in
Atlas Shrugged. Consequently, I propose CfL's summary be similarly condensed.
—
Jim Dunning
talk : 03:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I really think the Poet should be mentioned in both the summarary and character list. He was in two of the three sections of the book, and a major driving force of Fiat Lux. Czolgolz 22:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
This article has some of good material in it, but suffers significantly from disorganization (it reads as a hodge-podge of random thoughts). WikiProject Novels has some excellent ideas for article content and structure at WikiProject Novels/Style guidelines that may help us out in improving the article further.
Here's some of the relevant structure suggested by the guidelines and comments vis-a-vis the article as it stands now:
Finally, the current Quotations section should go. It is unencyclopedic and is just a form of trivia. It might be of interest if CfL had famous quotes that had migrated into mainstream culture (like "grok" from Stranger in a Strange Land), but there is nothing. — Removed!
I'm going to start working on this, but others please jump in with changes and thoughts.
—
Jim Dunning
talk : 04:58, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I think this article is ready to move to
GA status and am soliciting help from any skilled editors. A number of revisions have been made in the past few weeks to position it for a successful nomination process. Any assistance in making changes and/or suggestions will be appreciated. Thank you.
Jim Dunning |
talk 03:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I will be GA reviewing A Canticle for Leibowitz . I have not read the article yet so expect about two days before I write my review. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast ( talk) 15:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I really enjoyed reading this - so much so that I'm going to hunt down the novel. Unless I'm missing something, this article meets Wikipedia:Good article criteria, Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction), and Wikipedia:Writing better articles. I suggest trying to take it to Wikipedia:Featured articles as I think it would stand a chance; of course, I could be wrong on that. Really good job. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast ( talk) 02:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
This sounds like a fascinating article; Science Fiction isn't really my thing, so when I mentioned it to my boyfriend he threw his hands up and said "I can't believe you've never heard of it!" Sigh. :) Anyway, in preparation for PR and possibly FAC, here are some suggestions to think on:
I think that's it for now. As for picky MOS-ness, everything seems to be formatted quickly from what I can see, including the refs. The images all contain proper documentation. The lead section will need updating when more thematic elements are added to the article, and you should also consider adding the sequel and adaptation there to satisfy WP:LEAD. Thanks for the interesting read! Let me know if you need any clarifications or further comments. María ( habla con migo) 17:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I've removed this article from inclusion in
WikiProject Texas since none of the story's events takes place in Texas. The question was raised on the project's
Talk page about a month ago, and although there has been only a single response since then, it appeared to be in agreement.
Jim Dunning |
talk 10:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
"none of the story's events takes place in Texas" - LOL. Have you read the book?
This is an automated message regarding an image used on this page. The image File:A Canticle For Lebowitz.jpg, found on A Canticle for Leibowitz, has been nominated for deletion because it does not meet Wikipedia image policy. Please see the image description page for more details. If this message was sent in error (that is, the image is not up for deletion, or was left on the wrong talk page), please contact this bot's operator. STBotI ( talk) 14:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
the link to Terry Bisson's article (reference 18) is a dead link. I tried editing it - but couldn't find the right place (sorry, a bit of a wiki novice). If someone could enter the new link it would be great. Here it is: http://www.sff.net/people/TBisson/miller.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.228.182.147 ( talk) 17:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
No one has mentioned one of the most intriguing themes, that the story parables the bible. Leibowitz is the false prophet while Mrs. Grales is Mary (mother of Christ) and Rachel is Christ returned to earth for the apocalypse. 69.159.66.38 ( talk) 22:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Err, "to back up such a claim". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:40, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I notice that the Wandering Jew claims (in the year 3174) to be 3209 years old (well, via the Leibowitzian monastery's abbot, anyhow). 3209-3174= 35: that dates this Wanderer's birth to 34 BCE, well before Jesus was born and well before the Second Temple was destroyed. (See 1997 edition, page 139). In another paragraph, a couple of pages later, the Old Jew's age is boosted by another 2199 years, kicking his birth back to 2233 BCE. That suggests that the Old Jew is not just the Wandering Jew of Christian lore, but a personification of the Jewish people, perhaps all the way back to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Unfortunately, Miller sees the Jew from a Christian point of view, and he has him mentioning his seeing of the Messiah once before (a Christian interpretation of the Messiah!) (see page 174, 1997 edition), and thus fails to quite grok Judaism. An actual Jewish wanderer would probably have insisted that he had not seen "Him" just yet. But other than that, interesting dialogue between representatives of Christianity and Judaism in Fiat Lux. 192.12.88.7 ( talk) 02:52, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Long time scale scenarios are worth comparison and contrast with other works that exist in long time scales. Such works have a unique sensitivity to fine energy gradients, in the time and energy trade-off under the action. It is probably no coincidence that Miller set "A Canticle for Leibowitz" 600 years after 20th century destruction. After all, the Koran devolved to the Islamic prophet Mohammed 600 years after Rome fell. That number of centuries is distinct: it is the atomic number of carbon, six. It implies the Koran is in a sense an update of the religions that emerged from Rome, including the Christian. At a shrewd guess, the Koran brought the revelation, now understood in depth, that even tiny molecular interactions take place in the stellar cosmology, which we call the electrodynamics, and the long-run penalties for ignoring that can be extinction.
Going backward, earlier works exist dating back to the Papyri of Ani, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and others. Subsequent works too, fit into such analysis. Magna Charta is an example. Since the printing press, though, such works are too numerous to count. SyntheticET ( talk) 00:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
600 years after Rome fell - on which planet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
Looking at articles about novels that attained FA on this list, I notice that Uncle Tom's Cabin separates out info about its major characters from the plot summary. I think doing that here would improve this article. Sub-sections about Leibowitz, Benjamin, and Mrs. Grales/Rachel would be particularly useful. Sharktopus talk 19:18, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
We should confirm or correct some first edition data including the cover image. If we confirm then ISFDB needs correction for it displays a different cover image (whose own description does not adequately ID it) and gives pub date October 1959 with some support. (See the Notes field of A Canticle for Leibowitz (first paperback ed.) publication contents at the Internet Speculative Fiction Database.) -- P64 ( talk) 22:01, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Years after having heard bits of the story on NPR, I finally read the book. It is a good book, and the truth is I'm probably more prepared to understand it than I would have been thirty years ago. But right from the start I came across an intriguing error--or not--that has me thinking. The characters that the wandering "pilgrim" makes on the rock are (in the library edition I've read) clearly a "lamedh" and an "ayin." Later the Abbot identifies them as a "lamedh" and a "sadhe." Neither one of these interpretations would lead one to anything like "Liebowitz," which would have to end in a "tsamekh." The visual difference between "ayin" and "tsamekh" are enough to drive me nuts--but the Abbot's definitely wrong.
Which leads to a weird question: Whose error is this? Miller's? It's possible: these could be amateur Hebrew mistakes, and he makes another one later when he puts a definite "tsamekh" in the middle of the name Eleazar (which I'm guessing would be a "zayin"--confused yet?). Ah, but what if it's deliberate? What if the Abbot's mistake is intentional in the author? The monks of the order don't know everything about the texts in their keeping and misunderstand much of it. Witness Francis' discovery regarding blueprints! Maybe the Abbot is perpetuating an error about Hebrew orthography. Maybe the order would have made more progress faster if they had gotten their pronunciation correct!
Or maybe I just have better lighting. Without access to a monk-powered arc lamp, I had to hold the book up to the sunlight (horrors!) to make sure I was seeing what I thought I saw. Or perhaps the best explanation is the simplest one: the editor got it wrong in this edition.
I haven't found anybody dealing with this discrepancy. Any comments? KJPurscell ( talk) 15:13, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
The hyperlinked note #15 displays a definition of "Thon" as equivalent to "professor". I never got that out of the text of the novel, so I was curious about the source of that definition. I had always imagined that "Thon" was rather a corruption of or derivative of the Spanish "Don", some thing that seemed reasonable, given the centuries that had passed and the Spanish cultural influence on the Southwest. Miller includes an anecdote that illustrates a similar etymological development, in the story about the catfish "B'dollos" inhabiting a lake where another monk was martyred.
TheBaron0530 ( talk) 03:47, 15 October 2012 (UTC)TheBaron0530 23:46 ET 14Oct12
Dons are academics in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 22:45, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I have noticed that the reference to the "Albertian Order" includes a link to the Albertus Magnus article, but I don't see the connection between this person who happened to be called Albertus (there is a disambiguation page including several other notable people of that name) and this book - I had imagined that, perhaps, the "Albertian Order" was a reference to Albert Einstein, whose name may have been preserved in the 26th century as a figure of importance PaulHammond ( talk) 15:37, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Two things: Firstly, what is the difference between being subhuman in capacity for reason and intelligence? Couldn't we just say, "capacity for reason" and leave it at that? Secondly, were the mutants also physically very different than regular humans? Looked very different?-- Jrm2007 ( talk) 12:46, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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Fome the "Background" sectoin: " Eventually, whether by Leibowitz' intention or simply through the sanctification of repetition, his supporters and followers became a monastic order, the "Albertian Order of Leibowitz", dedicated to preserving knowledge." This implies that it is not know how the AOL was founded, which is incorrect.
In the book it clearly states that Leibowitz originally sought shelter from the mobs by hiding out at a Christian monastary. Then, when he became convinced that his wife was really dead, he took monastic orders, and became a priest, at which point he sought and received permission from the Church to found the new order in the southwestern desert.
The monastary has no reason to be uncertain of its own origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 ( talk) 21:45, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
"As Zerchi tries to conditionally baptize Rachel..."
Rachel? Who the hell is Rachel? Mrs. Grales secret identity? Or is her name Rachel Grales? And if she's married, Why would she need to be baptized? Very unclear from the context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 ( talk) 01:22, 11 February 2023 (UTC)