![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Is it "AK-47s" or "AK-47's"?? I believe both appear in the article as it currently stands. 158.169.9.14 17:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Since my contribution's removed on the MAZ rifle, which is weird that MIC would showcase it as a submachine gun. Would it be okay if I just reference this case down since the MAZ is an AK-made foreign variant? Thanks. Ominae 10:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page give a possible redirection to Andrei Kirilenko of the Utah Jazz? His nickname is AK-47! Basketball110 ( talk) 01:25, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, just informing you that I am working on a separate entry for the AKM variant, which is severely under-represented here. It is the most prolific of the AK variants and itself led to many other successful designs, most prominent among them: The RPK light machine gun and AK-74. It holds enough changes and its own variants to warrant a separate article. Any references to the AKM can be directed here from now on. I will complete this over the weekend. Koalorka ( talk) 19:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your input. I think the changes are numerous and significant enough to deserve it's own page, the reference to this most ubiquitous of AK variants on this page is laughable. I have material for an entire page, simply including it into the AK-47 page would result in a nightmarishly long and disproportionately detailed description of the AKM. I would also argue that based on the amount of variants alone that have spawned from the AKM (AKMS, AKMP, AKML, AKMLP, AKMSP, AKMSN, AKMSNP etc) that alone should guarantee it a separate entry. Another argument for the split would be that countries that use the AKM do not consider it a simple variant from the AK-47, but an entirely different firearm. The variances are far greater than say the AK-74 and AK-74M, but I do understand your position. Koalorka ( talk) 21:51, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
How can you logically argue this point if at the same time you argue in favor of keeping the M240 and FN MAG articles separate. There are far more differences between the AK-47 and AKM than the M240G and MAG, or likewise the MINIMI and M249, whose integration you also shot down. The M249 is principally manufactured by FNMI and has some "light" PIP improvements. Otherwise same weapon... I believe you should redefine your view of the "variant", you're not very consistent in this regard. Also, it's not only that the receiver was stamped instead of being milled from a single slab of steel. The barrel mounting system is different (pinned), the stock has longer (deeper) mounting arms, the receiver dust cover has vertical and lateral ribs for increased strength, the barrel has a recoil compensator, it has a hammer rate retarder, the hammer is different as is the trigger. The gas relief ports behind the gas cylinder head were relocated forward to the gas block, the bolt carrier has a lighter weight and has a slightly different shape, the stock has a different shape and an additional hollow that reduced weight. The return mechanism instead of a single telescopically mounted guide rod has a "U" shaped wire spring guide. The rear sight drop arms has teeth on the left side that determine the position of the slider adjustment. The front sight post is also different (narrower at the base).
BTW I brought up the AK-74 comparing it to the AK-74M, that is a simply lightly modified variant, unlike the AK-47 to the AKM. Koalorka ( talk) 01:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Then I ask you what modern firearm isn't a variant or some dramatic overhaul of an older or proven design, to what extent do we consider something a variant? The proposed break will allow us to divulge even more accurate information about the two designs and that I believe is our goal in the firearms community, we have to dispel the myth that the AK-47 is THE ONE main AK variant used in amateurish media reporting of firearms, popular culture etc. As you gentlemen are aware the AK-47 model is relatively obscure compared to the AKM, yet the AKM for some reason receives very little mention, simply due to the fact that it is seen as an irrelevant variant of the AK-47. Let's correct that. Koalorka ( talk) 17:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Then in accordance with that viewpoint we should eliminate dedicated articles for nationally-produced AK variants, such as the Type 56, Romanian AIM, Polish Tantal etc. since they are merely variants with a varying degree of changes and/or production methods... Same would apply to the AK-74, apart from some minor adaptations for the 5.45 M74 round, it is still pretty much the design layout and operating concept identical to the AK, it even shares a lot of common parts with the AK. The AK family is diverse and most major variants should be noted separately, the Eastern Bloc view of the Soviet portion of the AK family consists of the AK-47, AKM, AK-74 (which includes the newer AK-10x series rifles) and RPK. Since we adopt American standards and classifications when describing American-derived firearms, we should extend this courtesy to other nations as well and their firearm developments. Koalorka ( talk) 19:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
As is the AKM, apart from sharing a few more parts with the AK-47 because of the identical caliber. Clear as mud right? So both our positions are now known, let's see what others have to say. Perhaps we should link this debate to the WikiProject talk page to resolve this quicker? Koalorka ( talk) 19:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I think I have a slightly different perspective than some other editors about whether to split or merge certain articles such as this one. I'm interested in, and have some familiarity with, firearms, but I have less experience and a much less technical background than some others. Because of that I tend to think about splitting and merging more in terms of the articles themselves, rather than how the firearms are constructed or operate. Applying that to the current question, I think we should be talking more about what the one or two articles will be like if the AKM stays part of the AK-47 article or is split off. If there's really a lot to say about the AKM, then it should probably have its own article, even if it's mechanically quite similar to the AK-47. The WikiProject Firearms guideline is that variants should be part of the main article, but I would go so far as to say that if there's really a lot of good material about a variant, it should have its own article anyway, from the perspective of building an encyclopedia. Of course, a big part of the issue is deciding what is or is not a variant. If most of the parts are interchangeable, it may very well be a variant, but not necessarily. In the final analysis it's somewhat subjective. To use an analogy, most of the mechanical parts of mid-70s Camaros and Firebirds might have been interchangeable, but that doesn't mean that one was a variant of the other, and even if it was, probably most editors would agree that the cars should have separate articles. In conclusion, I'm not going to "vote" on whether or not the AKM should have its own article, but I would request other editors to consider the points I have made, both for this case and for other split and merge discussions. — Mudwater 21:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Defiently not.-King Toast —Preceding unsigned comment added by King Toast ( talk • contribs) 02:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Against The AKM is a variant of the AK 47 if you were to seperate them you would have to do the same for the M16/a1/a2/etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by G4raider ( talk • contribs) 02:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear Mr. XXX,
In my opinion AKM deserves a separate article (though of course, it should be linked to AK-47):
- AK-47 is only the initial version that further became the name of the concept. As you may know, even its very name - AK-47 - is not official, and the first AK accepted for service by the Soviet army, was officially called differently.
Though in general people tend to call AK-47 ALL Kalashnikov assault rifles (even modern), it will not correct if we talk officially or professionally. AK of 1949, AKM, AK74, AK of 100 series (101, 102, 103, 104, 105) are different generations of assault rifles with one outlook and general design.
- anyway, for the factory and designers AKM is so much different - in terms of weight, accuracy, handling during fire, rate of fire, etc. i.e. things that basically make a weapon.
- as you correctly mentioned, AKM was in production much longer and produced in larger quantities than the first AK.
Best regards,
Andrey Baryshnikov
Straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. If you haven't already noticed the AKM page does already exist in a splinter form, I will be enhancing it significantly over the next few days. Koalorka ( talk) 16:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Against The AKM is a variant of the AK 47 if you were to seperate them you would have to do the same for the M16/a1/a2/etc.-- Dudtz ( talk) 03:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Support Strong support. The AKM probably deserves its own article more than the "AK-47" does. The AKM is the actual weapon people are talking about 99% of the time when someone says "AK-47", it's the most widely produced, copied, and proliferated weapon in history. The AKM is a visually distinct weapon with the stock, pistol grip, receiver, receiver cover, selector switch, bolt carrier, rear sight, handguards, gas tube, gas block, front sight, and muzzle break all being quite noticeably different, among other smaller differences. -- Skyler Streng ( talk) 22:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The AKM page already exists on its own if you haven't noticed. Koalorka ( talk) 15:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Are there AK-47s that are chambered for 7.62mm Nato rounds? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.251.175.21 ( talk) 23:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Why is there no reference or comparison to M16, or even similar or also see reference? Bachcell ( talk) 18:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
In military language, "gun" refers to artillery weapons, shotguns, machine guns, and sub-machine guns, but never rifles. Since the article is about a military weapon I propose changing all instances of "gun" with "rifle." A bit nerdy and anal, but this is an encyclopedia. Drogue ( talk) 03:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
This part of the article is highly vague and inaccurate. The gun which Kalashnikov contemplated in hospital was a submachine gun; Germans did not have any automatic rifles in service in 1941 and thus, Kalashnikov and his fellow soldiers could not have been worried about matching non-existent German automatic rifles. In fact, it was the Germans who envied Soviet automatic rifles! Germans did, however, have submachineguns which Soviets had very few as of 1941, and this probably prompted Kalashnikov to submit his own entry.
I'm unsure which gun exactly "Mikhtim" refers to. It could be Kalashnikov's 1944 carbine, which was influenced by Garand and M1 Carbine (not so much by PPS-43 - although Kalashnikov was highly impressed by Sudayev's design). If so, the article is wrong - Kalashnikov carbine lost out to SKS. It did, however, form the basis for his 1946 assault rifle. That rifle also did not win the competition - it made to the second round along with rifles designed by Demetev and Bulkin, and between that it was almost completely redesigned, and it was Kalashnikov's 1947 gun which became AK-47. I was going to rewrite the entire chapter and remove whole reference to "Mikhtim" since it's so vague, but given that this is a featured article, I'm not willing to make drastic changes before hearing some second opinions...-- Mikoyan21 ( talk) 22:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The article says the AK compleatly based on Stg44, but in fact the 2 weapon sheares nothing but the gas operating function and the look (I had in hand both weapon disassembled). I agree that the AK sheares a lot in design/function with many other, earlier developed weapons, but writing "Mikhail Kalashnikov denies his assault rifle was based on the German Sturmgewehr 44 assault rifle despite circumstantial evidence to the contrary.[7]" is a way to strong. You can check
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as51-e.htm about the design of the 2 weapons. --katz
194.244.78.104 (
talk)
07:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Is it "AK-47s" or "AK-47's"?? I believe both appear in the article as it currently stands. 158.169.9.14 17:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Since my contribution's removed on the MAZ rifle, which is weird that MIC would showcase it as a submachine gun. Would it be okay if I just reference this case down since the MAZ is an AK-made foreign variant? Thanks. Ominae 10:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page give a possible redirection to Andrei Kirilenko of the Utah Jazz? His nickname is AK-47! Basketball110 ( talk) 01:25, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, just informing you that I am working on a separate entry for the AKM variant, which is severely under-represented here. It is the most prolific of the AK variants and itself led to many other successful designs, most prominent among them: The RPK light machine gun and AK-74. It holds enough changes and its own variants to warrant a separate article. Any references to the AKM can be directed here from now on. I will complete this over the weekend. Koalorka ( talk) 19:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your input. I think the changes are numerous and significant enough to deserve it's own page, the reference to this most ubiquitous of AK variants on this page is laughable. I have material for an entire page, simply including it into the AK-47 page would result in a nightmarishly long and disproportionately detailed description of the AKM. I would also argue that based on the amount of variants alone that have spawned from the AKM (AKMS, AKMP, AKML, AKMLP, AKMSP, AKMSN, AKMSNP etc) that alone should guarantee it a separate entry. Another argument for the split would be that countries that use the AKM do not consider it a simple variant from the AK-47, but an entirely different firearm. The variances are far greater than say the AK-74 and AK-74M, but I do understand your position. Koalorka ( talk) 21:51, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
How can you logically argue this point if at the same time you argue in favor of keeping the M240 and FN MAG articles separate. There are far more differences between the AK-47 and AKM than the M240G and MAG, or likewise the MINIMI and M249, whose integration you also shot down. The M249 is principally manufactured by FNMI and has some "light" PIP improvements. Otherwise same weapon... I believe you should redefine your view of the "variant", you're not very consistent in this regard. Also, it's not only that the receiver was stamped instead of being milled from a single slab of steel. The barrel mounting system is different (pinned), the stock has longer (deeper) mounting arms, the receiver dust cover has vertical and lateral ribs for increased strength, the barrel has a recoil compensator, it has a hammer rate retarder, the hammer is different as is the trigger. The gas relief ports behind the gas cylinder head were relocated forward to the gas block, the bolt carrier has a lighter weight and has a slightly different shape, the stock has a different shape and an additional hollow that reduced weight. The return mechanism instead of a single telescopically mounted guide rod has a "U" shaped wire spring guide. The rear sight drop arms has teeth on the left side that determine the position of the slider adjustment. The front sight post is also different (narrower at the base).
BTW I brought up the AK-74 comparing it to the AK-74M, that is a simply lightly modified variant, unlike the AK-47 to the AKM. Koalorka ( talk) 01:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Then I ask you what modern firearm isn't a variant or some dramatic overhaul of an older or proven design, to what extent do we consider something a variant? The proposed break will allow us to divulge even more accurate information about the two designs and that I believe is our goal in the firearms community, we have to dispel the myth that the AK-47 is THE ONE main AK variant used in amateurish media reporting of firearms, popular culture etc. As you gentlemen are aware the AK-47 model is relatively obscure compared to the AKM, yet the AKM for some reason receives very little mention, simply due to the fact that it is seen as an irrelevant variant of the AK-47. Let's correct that. Koalorka ( talk) 17:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Then in accordance with that viewpoint we should eliminate dedicated articles for nationally-produced AK variants, such as the Type 56, Romanian AIM, Polish Tantal etc. since they are merely variants with a varying degree of changes and/or production methods... Same would apply to the AK-74, apart from some minor adaptations for the 5.45 M74 round, it is still pretty much the design layout and operating concept identical to the AK, it even shares a lot of common parts with the AK. The AK family is diverse and most major variants should be noted separately, the Eastern Bloc view of the Soviet portion of the AK family consists of the AK-47, AKM, AK-74 (which includes the newer AK-10x series rifles) and RPK. Since we adopt American standards and classifications when describing American-derived firearms, we should extend this courtesy to other nations as well and their firearm developments. Koalorka ( talk) 19:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
As is the AKM, apart from sharing a few more parts with the AK-47 because of the identical caliber. Clear as mud right? So both our positions are now known, let's see what others have to say. Perhaps we should link this debate to the WikiProject talk page to resolve this quicker? Koalorka ( talk) 19:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I think I have a slightly different perspective than some other editors about whether to split or merge certain articles such as this one. I'm interested in, and have some familiarity with, firearms, but I have less experience and a much less technical background than some others. Because of that I tend to think about splitting and merging more in terms of the articles themselves, rather than how the firearms are constructed or operate. Applying that to the current question, I think we should be talking more about what the one or two articles will be like if the AKM stays part of the AK-47 article or is split off. If there's really a lot to say about the AKM, then it should probably have its own article, even if it's mechanically quite similar to the AK-47. The WikiProject Firearms guideline is that variants should be part of the main article, but I would go so far as to say that if there's really a lot of good material about a variant, it should have its own article anyway, from the perspective of building an encyclopedia. Of course, a big part of the issue is deciding what is or is not a variant. If most of the parts are interchangeable, it may very well be a variant, but not necessarily. In the final analysis it's somewhat subjective. To use an analogy, most of the mechanical parts of mid-70s Camaros and Firebirds might have been interchangeable, but that doesn't mean that one was a variant of the other, and even if it was, probably most editors would agree that the cars should have separate articles. In conclusion, I'm not going to "vote" on whether or not the AKM should have its own article, but I would request other editors to consider the points I have made, both for this case and for other split and merge discussions. — Mudwater 21:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Defiently not.-King Toast —Preceding unsigned comment added by King Toast ( talk • contribs) 02:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Against The AKM is a variant of the AK 47 if you were to seperate them you would have to do the same for the M16/a1/a2/etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by G4raider ( talk • contribs) 02:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear Mr. XXX,
In my opinion AKM deserves a separate article (though of course, it should be linked to AK-47):
- AK-47 is only the initial version that further became the name of the concept. As you may know, even its very name - AK-47 - is not official, and the first AK accepted for service by the Soviet army, was officially called differently.
Though in general people tend to call AK-47 ALL Kalashnikov assault rifles (even modern), it will not correct if we talk officially or professionally. AK of 1949, AKM, AK74, AK of 100 series (101, 102, 103, 104, 105) are different generations of assault rifles with one outlook and general design.
- anyway, for the factory and designers AKM is so much different - in terms of weight, accuracy, handling during fire, rate of fire, etc. i.e. things that basically make a weapon.
- as you correctly mentioned, AKM was in production much longer and produced in larger quantities than the first AK.
Best regards,
Andrey Baryshnikov
Straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. If you haven't already noticed the AKM page does already exist in a splinter form, I will be enhancing it significantly over the next few days. Koalorka ( talk) 16:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Against The AKM is a variant of the AK 47 if you were to seperate them you would have to do the same for the M16/a1/a2/etc.-- Dudtz ( talk) 03:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Support Strong support. The AKM probably deserves its own article more than the "AK-47" does. The AKM is the actual weapon people are talking about 99% of the time when someone says "AK-47", it's the most widely produced, copied, and proliferated weapon in history. The AKM is a visually distinct weapon with the stock, pistol grip, receiver, receiver cover, selector switch, bolt carrier, rear sight, handguards, gas tube, gas block, front sight, and muzzle break all being quite noticeably different, among other smaller differences. -- Skyler Streng ( talk) 22:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The AKM page already exists on its own if you haven't noticed. Koalorka ( talk) 15:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Are there AK-47s that are chambered for 7.62mm Nato rounds? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.251.175.21 ( talk) 23:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Why is there no reference or comparison to M16, or even similar or also see reference? Bachcell ( talk) 18:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
In military language, "gun" refers to artillery weapons, shotguns, machine guns, and sub-machine guns, but never rifles. Since the article is about a military weapon I propose changing all instances of "gun" with "rifle." A bit nerdy and anal, but this is an encyclopedia. Drogue ( talk) 03:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
This part of the article is highly vague and inaccurate. The gun which Kalashnikov contemplated in hospital was a submachine gun; Germans did not have any automatic rifles in service in 1941 and thus, Kalashnikov and his fellow soldiers could not have been worried about matching non-existent German automatic rifles. In fact, it was the Germans who envied Soviet automatic rifles! Germans did, however, have submachineguns which Soviets had very few as of 1941, and this probably prompted Kalashnikov to submit his own entry.
I'm unsure which gun exactly "Mikhtim" refers to. It could be Kalashnikov's 1944 carbine, which was influenced by Garand and M1 Carbine (not so much by PPS-43 - although Kalashnikov was highly impressed by Sudayev's design). If so, the article is wrong - Kalashnikov carbine lost out to SKS. It did, however, form the basis for his 1946 assault rifle. That rifle also did not win the competition - it made to the second round along with rifles designed by Demetev and Bulkin, and between that it was almost completely redesigned, and it was Kalashnikov's 1947 gun which became AK-47. I was going to rewrite the entire chapter and remove whole reference to "Mikhtim" since it's so vague, but given that this is a featured article, I'm not willing to make drastic changes before hearing some second opinions...-- Mikoyan21 ( talk) 22:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The article says the AK compleatly based on Stg44, but in fact the 2 weapon sheares nothing but the gas operating function and the look (I had in hand both weapon disassembled). I agree that the AK sheares a lot in design/function with many other, earlier developed weapons, but writing "Mikhail Kalashnikov denies his assault rifle was based on the German Sturmgewehr 44 assault rifle despite circumstantial evidence to the contrary.[7]" is a way to strong. You can check
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as51-e.htm about the design of the 2 weapons. --katz
194.244.78.104 (
talk)
07:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)