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Archive 1 |
Shouldn't this be called the "7.92x57 Mauser"? My understanding is that is the usual name for it. -- Cabalamat 15:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
No. The original military designation used a comma, and the CIP standards body still uses a comma. It is only the English speaking countries that use a period. Since this is a cartridge of European origin, and exact nomenclature is an important part of any cartridge's history, it is important to retain the original nomiker when referring to it in historical context. HangFire 02:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
-Alex, 74.133.188.197 03:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC).
-- Dutchguy 07:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The designations of the different countries should be recognised. The cartridge could say german and british sources one below the other so that way both would say, becose it is not fair to convert the original name, and is much better if it would say both german and english designation of the cartridge. Thank you. -Nemesis1000 83.131.149.119 10:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
8mm Mauser is never referred to as 7.92x57 Mauser. The actual dimensions are left in mm, or 7.92x57mm, or 8mm Mauser, not the combination of the two. Brenden 03:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The entire comma vs. dot history can be found at Decimal_separator. I agree with Nemesis1000 that redirects should be developed for alternate spellings such as "7.92 x 57", "7.92x57", "7,92 x 57", "JS", "IS", "8mm Mauser", etc.-- Raprat 15:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
The following should have either a citation or a technical justification: "The bullet has the best ratio of energy compared to the weight of the powder loaded in all commercial hunting cartridges." -- Raprat 14:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
It's nice to see some attention given to this article.
This statement is of the few remaining parts of the original stub. The statement might be true if narrowly constrained, such as, bottleneck major caliber service rifle cartridges from that era. That's rather complicated. I think the actual best cartridge as described would be the 45 Colt revolver cartridge in a modern smokeless loading, which gets about 1/4 of the energy of the Mauser cartridge with 1/9 of the powder weight. Anyway, rather than sort it all out, the best thing to do is probably delete the sentence or completely rewrite it. HangFire 01:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Merging this page with 7x57 would be as pointless as merging the geographical pages of Germany and Spain. Once fleshed out, both the 7,92x57 page and the 7x57 page will be very large entries indeed and the discussion will be whether they each need to be broken down into smaller pages. HangFire 03:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
As per the general consensus from the team at Wikiproject: Military History, it would seem that this article really ought to be named "7.92x57 Mauser", with no spaces- and using a decimal point instead of a comma. Regardless of whether or not the comma is "correct", it looks like a typo to 99.99% of Wikipedia readers. I thought I'd give people a chance to comment before arbitrarily changing the title, however. -- Commander Zulu 07:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
This has been argued many times and the consensus has been reached many times; the name of the cartridge originally had a comma, still does in all countries covered by the CIP; the American name does not use a period, or a comma for that matter- the American name is 8mm Mauser or 8x57 JS, and there are already redirects in place to cover those conventions. I'm sorry if this foreign name looks like a "typo" to you; perhaps you would like to Americanize everyone's foreign-sounding name by changing the spelling, too? See how far you get with THAT. HangFire 04:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not American, you know. -- Commander Zulu 08:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
So what? HangFire 00:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
So please don't accuse me of being on a quest to "Americanise" anything. If I wanted to Americanise this article, I would have proposed calling it "8mm Mauser" instead of a simple Anglicisation to 7.92x57 Mauser. Based on your "But that's what it was originally called!" argument, perhaps we should rename the Oxygen article dephlogisticated air and the Hawaii article Sandwich Islands as well? -- Commander Zulu 01:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Nobody ever blew up an action shooting the Sandwich Islands out of a I-bore barrel.
HangFire
00:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The article titled as it stands is wrong. It is either 7.92x57mm or 8mm Mauser. Not the combination of the two. Brenden 03:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Generally speaking, yes they do. That is why 7.92x57mm is also referred to as 8mm Mauser. Suggesting that a "disambiguator" is needed in the title due to non-shooters makes no sense. A page with multiple listings is then needed, not a change in title. I am pretty sure any real fan of a band called "7.92x57", if there is such a thing, or ".38 Special", would know where the band's name comes from. I also don't recall the local hardware stores selling 8mm wide pieces of wood. No one can assume it's an engineering equation either. Is this the only argument that exists for not just using the proper designation, 7.92x57mm? It's merely grabbing at straws. Brenden 00:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Right, I moved the article back to 7.92x57mm Mauser. This is where it will stay, unless a consensus is reached to move it. This is the accepted decimal separator in English, and this is the English WP. Thanks, chaps. Geoff B 23:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Now look what you all have done. "Now known in Europe as the 7.92x57mm JS"... but it is NOT known in Europe as the 7.92x57mm JS! You've also changed the HISTORICAL REFERENCES of this this many-named cartridge to something IT WAS NEVER CALLED. HangFire 04:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
It's hard enough keeping this page on its historically correct naming convention, you've got a tough row to how to convert ALL numbering to ISO 32. (ISO is great; remember when TP4 and all those other great new standard ISO protocols was going to replace funky old TCP/IP?) To put the EU's ISO in perspective, the whole of the EU has an economy the size of any three mid-size US states. Anyway, you missed a decimal. HangFire 01:02, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Sadly, DutchGuy, we on Wikipedia decide Wikipedia's style, and it has been decided that the full stop is the accepted decimal separator. Nor am I changing this article for 'the American home market'. I am not American, and perhaps you should not assume that everyone who edits this article in regards to the decimal separator issue is American. This is the English Wikipedia, and the full stop is the accepted decimal separator in English. Thank you. Geoff B 02:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
What the smeg is it with people assuming everyone on WP is American? I agree completely with Geoff B. The only English-speaking country that I know of that uses the comma instead of the decimal point is South Africa. The UK, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and most of the rest of the English-speaking world uses a decimal point. We may have to take this to arbitration if this article keeps getting moved back to the title involving a comma. -- Commander Zulu 07:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted Dutchguy's unilateral move again, since the consensus seems pretty strong to keep it at the name used in English. It may be worth monitoring Dutchguy's changes, or possibly bringing up a mediation/arbitration case, since he seems to be on a crusade to change all Wikipedia articles to use commas as a decimal separator. I've recently had to revert his edits to the manual of style itself, which should probably also be watched. -- Delirium 14:12, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Dutchguy has reverted the article name. Again. I hope people will stop assuming they know the motivation of others and we can talk reasonably about this, but that does not appear to be the case so far. Whether this takes dispute resolution, mediation or arbitration to sort out, I'm quite willing. Geoff B 17:26, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Arbitration might make sense. I do not agree with DutchGuy that all decimals should be moved to ISO notation. I only want the title to reflect the original notation and original standard name for the cartridge. Really, if this were the American English Wikipedia, it WOULD be 8mm Mauser, but it's the International English Wikipedia. What irks me about the whole thing is the dozens of articles that take you through 3 or more manual redirects to get to the page-name-of-the-day for this cartridge. The changers and reverters don't bother to go clean up the rest of the articles or even the hanging redirects. Most of them (which is to say, most of YOU) DON'T EVEN CONTRIBUTE to the page! You just move it back and forth. Seriously, though, the size of the biggest economy in the EU, Germany, is almost identical to that of the state of New York. You can work down from there, but hold California in reserve, because there is nothing to compare it to in the EU. And don't forget to deduct points for Portugal and R.o. Ireland. 69.137.35.23 03:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
@HangFire - We don't do that because we need this article to be stable before we can sort out all the redirects. If we sort out all the redirects, then the page gets changed back again, all our work would have been pointless. And please, stop bringing up economy size comparisons. They have nothing to do with what is going on here. If you want to compare whose 'economy' is the biggest, please go elsewhere, and no-one, apart from you, it seems, is awarding or deducting points. Bizarre.
@Dutchguy - Using full stops as a decimal point is A) Still standard usage in English and B) Is the WP convention for the decimal point, so it will be used. This has nothing to do with emothion, or 'old' habits, but everything to do with current language use. Geoff B 03:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I would note that Dutchguy is simply incorrect in his views of the International System of Units, which makes no requirement to use the comma or prohibition of the full stop. To quote our article on said system: "The 10th resolution of CGPM in 2003 declared that 'the symbol for the decimal marker shall be either the point on the line or the comma on the line'." So both are equally acceptable in the view of the CGPM, and therefore the SI. -- Delirium 20:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Dutchguy, saying things like "my views are perfectly right", "comma is king", "nostalgias of the obsolete ways" and "Come back when you know something about cartridges" betrays the fact that the only person here letting their feelings motivate them is you. 1) The full stop, or point, is the accepted decimal point in English. 2) This is the English Wikipedia. 3) It is also the accepted Wikipedian convention to use the full stop as the decimal point. That this is at odds with usage in other languages and ISO-Whatever is irrelevant. It's the way Wikipedia does it. I can't explain it any clearer.
Geoff B
13:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
GeoffvB is right. Dutchguy, you can jump up and down about the comma as a decimal separator (which, to me and the rest of the English-as-a-mother tongue-speaking world looks either like a typo or lazy translation). Look, in conventional English, the comma is used as a kind of mini-pause, if you will, denoting things in a list (amongst other uses). So, to almost all English speakers, "7,92" would be read as "Seven, Ninety-Two", with a tone indicating that one might expect another number after that. Alternatively, it might also be interpreted as "Seven and Ninety-Two". However, with the decimal point it immediately becomes clear to the English reader that it is "Seven Point Nine Two", and therefore some kind of precise measurement. As others have said, you're welcome to lobby the entire English-speaking world to change the way they write (Good luck!), but Wikipedia is not the place to do it. As a comparison, the Metric System has been officially in use in the US for many, many years- but it's not in actual common use amongst the general populace there in their everyday lives, at least as I understand it. -- Commander Zulu 00:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have issues with: "To avoid potentially serious accidents, it is impossible to over-stress the vital need for distinguishing clearly between cartridges loaded for these two different bullet diameters, and only firing them in appropriately chambered/barrelled rifles."
PO Ackley's (Engineer and Dean of the Colorodo School of Gunsmithing) post-WWII published experiments with overbore bullets in 8mm Mausers conclusively debunked this myth. Not to mention that Germany used JS bore bullets in J bores between 1905 and WWI by simply reaming the chamber and leade to allow the larger cartridge to be chambered, with no problems. There is substantial evidence that the sub-pressure 8x57 Mauser (American loading) cartridge exists primarily to keep Americans buying higher performing American loadings of domestic calibers, in other words, to keep surplus Mausers from competing with US made rifles.
Unless you can find some published research substantiating your assertion, we must consider Professor Ackley's scientific experiments to be the conclusive word on this subject, more conclusive than the usual gun writer blather- the same gun writers that depend on free gear and hunts from manufacturers interested in selling new rifles and new cartridges. This so-called data falls in the same class as CZ-52's being the strongest 7.62x25 chambered handgun, when in fact it is the weakest due to having the thinnest chamber wall. It is simply gun writer lore that gets repeated without substantiation or research. HangFire 02:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
With all due respect to Parker Ackley (whose work in general I much admire), I cannot agree that the two types of cartridge with deiffering buller diameters can be mixed with impunity, for the simple reason that I have seen a perfectly good European-made sporting rifle ruined - and its firer miraculously escape serious injury - when the incorrect diameter of bullet was inadvertently fired in it. The bullet stuck in the bore and the rifle shattered into pieces. This happened in Surrey, England, at the UK's NRA ranges there, in the 1980s. I know "one swallow doesn't make a summer", but in correspondence with various gunsmiths in Europe I was able to collect a good deal of evidence that such serious mishaps are by no means uncommon when the two types of 7.92x57 ammo are mixed.
Alas, P.O. Ackley also gets things wrong when he writes with withering condemnation about the .244 Holland & Holland Magnum. Sadly, he appears to have committed a very extreme opinion to print, without having anything more than rather perfunctory personal experience of this calibre. In my recent work on the .244 Wikipedia article, I have tried to put the record straight - especially as regards the rifles that blew up with this cartridge. It was the rifles' owners' fault, not that of the ammunition, which is perfectly fine - so long as the user appreciates that it is very extreme ammo. Various details, including material from the archives of David Lloyd (who invented the cartridge, and made rifles for it) and H&H, will be added as soon as I have fully verified them, and gone through the necessary courtesies with copyright owners etc. Clmckelvie 18:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I was wrong in my original discussion, Ackely's research involved firing 8mm/7.92 bullets IN 30 CALIBER BARRELS. This DID produce high pressure signs, but not nearly what was expected. As long as the rest of the system had integrity- if and only if- it was not a major safety factor IN AND OF ITSELF.
Throw in some combination weak or brittle brass, excessive headspace, unsupported head area due to improper rebarreling, handloading with the bullet seated hard against the lead, etc., and catastrophic results can certainly follow. Fine sporters made from other receivers can be found fragrmented everywhere, without tight bores being a factor, because the more important safety factor is not bore size, as conclusively proven by Ackley. The most important factors are: brass integrity, brass support, receiver integrity and gas handling. As certain as you are about the cause of your anecdote, I am certain there were other contributing factors besides bore size.
When you examined the receiver pieces, could you determine pre-catastrophe headspace? Unsupported case head protrusion? Receiver damage from sight mounting? Quality of heat threatment? A sound Mauser receiver will survive case head seperations (mine have), simply because they were designed to do so... provided their design parameters haven't been transgressed by time or bad gunsmithing (especially rebarrelling leaving incorrect bolt face/breech distance, which can be wildly wrong while having proper headspace), improper sight mounting (damaging receiver ring integrity), etc., etc.
Although totally irrelevant to this topic, PO Ackley was bang-on about the .244 H&H- It was a difficult cartridge to reload with the American powders at the time, did not make its performance claims, and had very short barrel life. That did not stop its popularity from its users who enjoyed the mild recoil, flat trajectory, and remarkable killing power. A wealthy person could tolerate a 600 shot barrel life shooting factory ammo for these benefits- Ackley's perspective was too value-oriented to tolerate the drawbacks.
Anyway, I'll give it another few days before I moderate your overblown warning, unless you care to do it yourself. Once again I must state, Ackley did the conclusive research on this topic, and just because someone blew up an action at a range once, doesn't invalidate controlled sample set research. HangFire 03:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
As a more general principle - and re your "before I moderate your overblown warning" - I think one can never "over-blow" the matter of firearms safety. Guns have a bad enough name already in some quarters without shooters being over-confident or cavalier and thus courting yet more criticism. It behoves everyone who writes about firearms anywhere, including Wiki, to caution care and advocate the precautionary principle at all times. It can save lives and prevent serious injury.
Parker Ackley's animadversions on the .244 H&H Magnum actually far outran the limited US-domestic parameters you refer to. He castigated it for faults that he fancied were there, but which actually aren't, and eventually dismissed it as "hopelessly overbore". His failing, alas, was to jump to extreme theoretical conclusions that went far beyond his actual, personal experience of the cartridge, which was rather limited. In any event, P.O.A. would certainly (like most US handloaders at that time) have had access to surplus .50BMG powders, and those can make the .244H&H perform pretty well, although they're perhaps not perfect.
Bill Ruger owned, used and admired the .244, and more importantly so too did Roy Weatherby, for whom it was the inspiration for the .240 Wby. As above stated, I much admire most of Ackley's work, but the man wasn't infallible (and he'd not have claimed it), and occasionally he got something wrong (as we all can). Clmckelvie 23:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Amusing. Consider this. The BMG powders that Ackley had access to were slower and more progressive than H&H's Cordite, and Weatherby's .240 has smaller case capacity than the .244, even though Weatherby consistantly sought higher performance than any other production firearm in his designs... and got it. When he didn't, he discontinued the chamberering, as he did with the 220 Rocket. Now, why would he make the case capacity smaller than the competition? He had access to larger parent cases....
HangFire 03:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The barrel diameter is irrelevant--the old barrels were toleranced from .315 to .321. The newer barrels from .320 to .327. So a .323 bullet (tolerance, IIRC from .320 to .325) might STILL be "Too large" for a modern barrel. The reason for the caution/change is that the THROAT DIAMETER is smaller in the J barrels. Those rechambered (NOT "Rebored") to S specs fire .323 just fine. All that was done was to ream the throat a little larger. Some had rifling recut a little deeper. Most were simply new barrels. The Turks fired "high power" 8mm through their 88s and 93s in WWII with no issues. People still fire them today. And I've yet to see a photo of one of these old rifles that has exploded and ripped a hole in the space-time continuum. There are a lot of shooters (including myself(yes, I realize WP:OR) who have been shooting milsurp ammo in the antiques for decades. It's a nonissue, as long as the proper CHAMBER is in the rifle. I have corrected this misinformation and internet rumor with a comment on chamber size. I will find a source when I have some time. Meantime, anyone perpetuating the "larger barrel" myth needs to provide their OWN citation for it. Mzmadmike ( talk) 16:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if something should be mentioned about the derivative cartridges made from this one. Examples: 9x57mm, 10x57mm, 10.5x57mm, et al.
COMMENT:
It would be helpful is this article depicted both the SAAMI and CIP drawings of this cartridge. They are not identical. Also, the drawing dates should be included. These sporting arms standards (SAAMI & CIP) have been revised over time. Since this cartridge was originally developed for military purposes, original dated milspec cartridge drawings should be included as well. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
66.217.228.118 (
talk)
06:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
REPLY: SAAMI drawings are copyrighted. RCBS went to the lengths of hiring their own draftsman to recreate SAAMI drawings in their reloading manual, even though they are a SAAMI member. Don't know about CIP. HangFire ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 03:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Just a little annotation: The German flag ist black-red-gold not black-white-gold as shown in this article. user: tabalooga (German Wikipedia) 2th Oct 2010 9:37 CEST —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.84.193 ( talk) 07:39, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Removed two Template:cn-Tags by GraemeLeggett. Reasons:
That there are an awful lot of references to the 8x57 JS cartridge as "7.92" (or other 8mil cartridges, like 8x33 Polte etc.) seems to be above any doubt.
I can, however, not provide proof that "no sources can be traced to Germany", and that's also not how it works.
I know of no sources in pre-war Germany that call the 8mil "7.92", and the C.I.P. dimensions do not include 7.92 mm (0.312 in) anywhere. Sources calling the cartridge "7.92" until now all have proved to be translations from US literature, quotations of US literature, or rip-offs of US literature. Neither C.I.P. nor SAAMI know of "7.92" as an official designation.
No one must provide quotations that show that there are NO sources calling something this-or-that. That's neigh impossible. One must provide, however, proof that there ARE sources calling something this-or-that. No such proof was found (and believe me, I did search) that 8x57JS was EVER called "7.92" in Germany w/o above exceptions in any context. Prove me wrong, and I am VERY MUCH oblieged, as it is a great mystery to me where the frack this "7.92" comes from.
So, this is no viable place for a "Citation needed"-Tag. A place where somebody explained where the 7.92 came from would be; and a good source for that would solve a real mystery.
Please reread the paragraph; it is trivial. Of course, two calibres that differ in one whole millimetre are not interchangeable. No proof needed there. I am a little bit confused that there had to be any mention of that. 8x57JS is also not interchangeable with 8x68S, 8x64 Brenneke, 7x64 Brenneke, or 9(x19) Parabellum, for that matter. -- Dingo ( talk) 15:41, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
So long, and thanks for the fish. It is a pity that there seems to be users who are unwilling or unable to contribute AND have admins that will back them even if sourcing and arguments are provided. I will go for a permanent block, and not "disrupt" WP any longer with strenuous sourcing work and verifiable sources. Pity for the hours providing the sources. Dingo ( talk) 00:41, 30 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.197.182.88 ( talk)
Reading this text about German military arms I have noticed constantly repeated mistake in designation of ammunition used for K 35 rifle or MG 18, or MG 42 machine gun. As far as I have learned the original designation of the caliber should be 8x57mm IS where 8mm stands for rounded measure of the bullet in milimeters, 57 for length of case, I for "Infanterie" - the infantry, and S for "Spitzgeschoss" or pointed nose bullet. Shorter name should be 8mmS, or concerning the artillery habit to designate caliber according to the diameter over fields of the barrel: 7,9mm. In addition to the famous inventor and manufacturer of the bolt action rifle military designation should be 7,9mm Mauser. 8x57IS stays more as civil designation for sporting/hunting rifles and ammunition. Just before the WWI German army introduced new ammunition and chambering 8x57IS for standard Mauser Model 1889 bolt action infantry rifle, till then chambered only for 8x57I. New caliber differed from previous, by slightly larger diameter (7.89mm over fields and 8,20mm over grooves) and another more obvious feature - pointed full metal jacket bullet, demanding new extrusion/pressing manufacturing technologies, but offering better ballistic performances compared to his predcessor with slightly smaller diameter (7,81mm over fields and 8,10mm over grooves) with prominent round-nosed bullet and "civil" designation 8x57I. Important consequence that distinguishes this two calibers, which was the probable intention of the designer, was interchangeability: you could shoot 8x57I from both rifles (chambered for 8x57I and 8x57IS), but if you try to shoot 8x57IS round from 8x57I chambered rifle, damage to the rifle, with severe consequences for the shooter are inevitable. Still ,mostly in some private collections you could find rifles chambered for 8x57I cartridge, and famous German ammunition factory RWS still produces this ammunition. Mistake in designation 7,92mm probably was caused by byrocratic inertia, due to the often, but quite correct transcription of the famoust US .30-06 Springfield caliber in metric measures as 7,62x63mm (0,300 in x 25,4mm/in = 7,62mm). The same is with Soviet/Russian standard rifle caliber from both WWs 7,62x54R (R is for "Rand" in German or "flange" in English), more recent well known 7,62x39AK47, or modern NATO machine gun ammunition caliber 7,62x51mm originally .308 Winchester cartridge designed in 1951 to replace .30-06, with same bullet but shorter, more compact case where .308 stands for diameter of the barrel measured over grooves (.308in = 7,82mm) which is, in fact diameter of all .30 or .300 or .308 designated bullets. Please avoid the mistake; designation "7,92mm" just doesn't have any sense. For now on choose between 7,9mm Mauser or, more correct 8x57IS as designation for certain firearms caliber.
Kind regards,
George B. Vukovic M.Sc. Mech.Eng. Beograd, Serbia [1]
The result of the move request was: Article moved, listed for over 3 weeks with no objections ~~ GB fan ~~ 07:38, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
7.92x57mm Mauser →
8x57 IS — Relisted.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 19:18, 14 November 2010 (UTC) Relisted.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 21:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC) Correct C.I.P. Designation. "7.92x57" seems to be a USA-speciality, probably due to shooting regulations (caliber < 8mm?)
Dingo (
talk)
12:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm a little at a loss about the "German military designation"-part.
I heard about "7.92x57mm" only in US-based publications. I have consulted now "Reibert, Der Dienstunterricht im Heere", 1940-edition, and "Der Karabiner", Heinz Denckler-Verlag Berlin C2. Both call the caliber of the lands in the barrel of the rifle "7,9 mm"; the ammunition is just "Scharfe Patrone S (Spitzgeschoß)" (Life Cartridge S (Spitz(er)-Bullet)). In a tract about the different bullets for the cartridge (sS - schweres Spitzgeschoß, SmK Spitz mit Kern, Leuchtspur - heavy Spitzer, Spitzer with (steel-)Core, Tracer...), the caliber is called just "7,9mm".
In the civil sector, the caliber was just called "8x57 IS", or, as in German capital I and J were often synonymous, "8x57 JS".
Now:
There are some sources (normally civilian) post-1945 who use "7.92x57" (eg, German wikipedia) - this is, however, just from US-sources.
I will make a paragraph about the cartridge in the Wehrmacht. From the main paragraph, I will delete the "German military"-part until further sources.
So long, -- Dingo ( talk) 13:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
References
I improved the readability of some tables and did some (imo) non controversial CE. This has been reverted twice without comment by Gunnai. I notice that he simply deletes anything put on his talk page, so I invite his and other opinions here. ( Hohum @) 02:28, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
After MFIreland began an Edit War in 7.92x33mm Kurz, here are my sources and how they represent the 8mm cartridges:
Conclusion: By all those sources, it can be statet that:
I hope that brings the discussion back to the subject and averts further Edit wars and cn-orgys ( WP:DND). No, this was NOT all the literature there is about the weapons and calibres. But I dare say that it is a very good sample. -- Dingo ( talk) 21:09, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:43, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
8x57 IS →
8x57mm IS — Relisted.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
08:01, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
This move is pointless, there is NO SUCH CARTRIDGE (sorry to shout) as 8x57IS or 8x57mm IS. There is an SAAMI (American) cartridge designation of 8mm Mauser a.k.a. 8x57JS (note "J" not "I"), and a German military designation of 7,92x57mm IS. Both names being discussed are some odd admixture of the two proper names. However, I've fought this battle many times before, and there are some very adamant people here who insist on getting it wrong. HangFire ( talk) 21:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per request. - GTBacchus( talk) 21:50, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
7.92×57mm →
8×57mm IS – It is good practice to use nomenclature that is consistent/in line with how Wikipedia denotes cartridges to keep things as recognizable/uniform as possible; see
Wikipedia:Article titles. I know the designation 8×57mm IS is not used by the
C.I.P. (8 x 57 IS) nor the
SAAMI (8x57 or 8mm Mauser). The 8×57mm IS nomenclature is however in line with the metric cartridge nomenclature used in Wikipedia; A x Bmm Other stuff. The current 7.92×57mm nomenclature is not used by the C.I.P., the SAAMI nor Wikipedia. The 8×57mm IS nomenclature would be consistent with the nomenclature used in the
Category:Pistol and rifle cartridges and
Category:Military cartridges lists.
Is it possible for a moderator to protect this article's name against moves since we have had similar discussions several times (see previous discussions above)?-- Francis Flinch ( talk)-- Francis Flinch ( talk) 08:01, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
First, it is good that User:MFIreland got the boot. Now, based on standardised nomenclature, real work can be done. C.I.P. and SAAMI agree that it is 8x57 IS, and not "7.92".
Now, it may be that the "7.92mm" was used in Great Britain, Poland and probably Czechoslovakia, both Poland and Czechoslovakia working together with GB as part of the Cordon Sanitaire in the Interwar Period. Perhaps the task forces for those countries in the "Military History"-portal could check this?
EVEN IF the nomenclature is confirmed (which would be no wonder, as it is awfully widespread), it rests a fact that the vast majority of 8x57 weapons were produced in Germany and the Central Powers/ Axis and were designated 8x57 (civil) or 7.9mm (military). It was even a law in parts of the German states that hunters and marksmen had to have their rifles in the ordonance calibre of the military. (The prussian minister of war noted "with concern" that sporting rifles had no longer bayonet lugs in the late 19th century.) The designation of the calibre was and is 8x57 I(nfantrie)S(pitz), and that is confirmed by BOTH C.I.P. and SAAMI.
So even after the "7.92" riddle is solved, there is NO NEED to move the article as the most common designation is 8mm. -- Hornsignal ( talk) 09:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Given the move history from the discussions above, I'm surprised to see it at this name which was apparently not discussed and seems to be one of the first names for this article. If any further moves are contemplated they should only be done after a public discussion that garners a consensus. Vegaswikian ( talk) 06:41, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
7.92 x 57mm Mauser → 8×57mm IS – It is good practice to use nomenclature that is consistent/in line with how Wikipedia denotes cartridges to keep things as recognizable/uniform as possible; see Wikipedia:Article titles. I know the designation 8×57mm IS is not used by the C.I.P. (8 x 57 IS) nor the SAAMI (8x57 or 8mm Mauser). The 8×57mm IS nomenclature is however in line with the metric cartridge nomenclature used in Wikipedia; AxBmm Other stuff. The current 7.92 × 57mm Mauser nomenclature is not used by the C.I.P. (The United Kingdom is a C.I.P. member state), the SAAMI nor Wikipedia. The 8×57mm IS nomenclature would be consistent with the nomenclature used in the Category:Pistol and rifle cartridges and Category:Military cartridges lists. Further I can not find an image of a 7.92 × 57mm Mauser marked box of cartridges. Images of ammunition boxes containing military 7.9 ammunition and 8×57 I(R)S and 8×57 J(R)S ammunition for export to the Anglo-Saxon market can be easily found. Is it possible for a moderator to protect this article's name against moves since we have had similar discussions several times (see previous discussions above)?relisted---- Francis Flinch ( talk) 09:09, 10 January 2012 (UTC) relisted-- Mike Cline ( talk) 15:31, 2 January 2012 (UTC) -- Francis Flinch ( talk)-- Francis Flinch ( talk) 08:01, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
I took some photos of some German WW2 ammunition that I have, I uploaded it to commons, can somebody place it in the main 7.92x57mm Wiki article?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AWorld_War_2_German_ammunition.JPG
Thanks!
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Arielnyc2006 ( talk • contribs) 20:34, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
The Gewehr 888 originally chambered for the M/88 service cartridge. In 1905, after a service period of 17 years, the 8 mm M/88 cartridge which was introduced in 1888 and loaded with a 8.08 mm (.318 in) diameter 14.6 g (226 gr) round nose bullet was replaced by the 8x57mm IS/7.92×57mm Mauser service cartridge which was loaded with a new 8.20 mm (.323 in) diameter 9.9 g (154 gr) spitzer bullet. The introduction of this new service ammunition offered improved accuracy and a flatter trajectory at the price that the existing military rifle stock had to be rechambered and rebarreled. Esthablishing to chambering of a Gewehr 1888 is important the 1888 pattern M/88 cartridge and 1905 S-bore pattern cartridges are two different non interchangeable chamberings. Besides the military developed S-bore a narrower I-bore was developed by civilian gunsmiths according to the groove and bore diameter ratio principles used in the S-bore to improve the M/88 accuracy whist retaining the smaller projectile diameter of the M/88. This ammunition is in 2012 known as the 8x57 I. Just like the 8x57 IS the 8x57 I chambering differs from the parental M/88 chambering. The original military M/88 chambering is not factory produced anymore and has effectively been replaced by the civilian 8x57 I chambering that can be fired safely from historic rifles (besides using larger diameter bullets the 8x57 IS has a higher service pressure). Logic dictates that firing 8x57 I from 8x57 IS chambered arms will have adverse effects on accuracy. The article 8×57mm IS cartridge portrait - Totgesagte leben länger, Wild und Hund 11/2006 (in German) explains the history from M/88 to 8x57 mm IS and 8x57mm I from military and civilian use perspectives in even more detail.-- Francis Flinch ( talk) 13:58, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
I took a photograph of WW2 German 7.92x57 "Spitzer with core" yellow bullet, red annulus color, can somebody place it in the 7.92x57mm Wiki?
Thanks! ˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arielnyc2006 ( talk • contribs) 02:47, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AWorld_War_2_German_7.92x57IS_Spitzer_with_core.JPG — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arielnyc2006 ( talk • contribs) 02:44, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
This article has several False Reference that make no mention of 7.92mm, 8mm or whatever you want to call it ammo. I have tried to remove them myself but other users continue to restore them...Also, there is an effort to maintain reference links that have been dead for over a year...I can only assume that this is being done to artificially inflate the number of references in this article and to support questionable information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 17:35, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I believe that the "8mm cartridges compared" section is supposed to show that there are five other 8mm type cartridges, that they have higher muzzle velocities than the 7.92mm, for five different bullet weights and that they also have greater case capacities. However, nowhere in the section is there a single muzzle velocity or case capacity listed. It only shows percentages. This is not only confusing it seems rather pointless. It has been flagged for over a year...I recommend that we delete the entire section...I cannot imagine that it will be missed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 05:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Cartridge naming section is too long and unnecessary detailed...I recommend the simple list that follows...
Cartridge naming
Current military and NATO designations:
Current European commercial or C.I.P. designations:
Current North American commercial and SAAMI designations:
Obsolete Germany military designations:
Obsolete British military designations:
All of the above information was taken from the article itself...I agree...most of it is questionable information that should be deleted...therefore:
1) We both agree that all references to the following designations within this article be deleted...
2) We should also delete the 8mm I information from this article as it's easily confused with 8mm IS. And, add a very clearly worded safety warning.
3) We should then add Jane's Information Group references explaining the origins of 7.92mm designations (i.e. the Germans lost WW2...Germany was then occupied by the allied powers...by the time West Germany joined NATO it was American and British controlled club...and English language designations were and remain the official NATO designations.) A simple Google search for “Jane's 7.92mm” will provide thousands of Jane’s references…take your pick…see: [2]
4) In the United States, a large amount of surplus military 7.92mm ammo is sold in the original military packaging…as 7.92mm. A simple Google search for “7.92mm ammo” will provide you with 7.92mm head-stamp pictures…see: [3]
So, I recommend the following changes to the list…
Cartridge naming
Military and NATO designations: (insert Jane's Information Group references here)
*7.92x57mm Mauser | 7.92x57mm | 7.92mm Mauser
European commercial or C.I.P. designations:
*8x57 IS
North American military surplus, commercial and SAAMI designations:
*7.92x57mm Mauser | 7.92x57mm | 7.92mm Mauser | 8mm Mauser | 8×57mm
WARNING: THE 8x57 IS AND 8x57 I ARE NOT THE SAME CARTRIDGE AND ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.
Any additional designations can be easily added in the future, by using the same format…What do you think?
I think it is a good idea to leave the historical British and US military designations in the article since they used the 7.92 mm wording that obviously lead to all sorts of nomenclature distortions, though not one dimension found in the cartridge and chamber drawings is actually 7.92 mm.-- Francis Flinch ( talk) 09:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
All I am proposing here is a simple list…that the reader can use as a quick reference…that gives the various names and designations for the 7.92mm cartridge…without needless confusing commentary and explanations. Perhaps the following list is better suited to this article….
Cartridge naming
The 7.92mm cartridge is also known by the following designations:
*8x57 IS
*7.92x57mm Mauser
*7.92x57mm
*7.92mm Mauser
*8mm Mauser
*8×57mm
*7,9mm
WARNING: THE 8x57 IS AND 8x57 I ARE NOT THE SAME CARTRIDGE AND ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.
I even put the C.I.P designation at the top of the list.
Also...
1) Before the adoption of the 7.62mm NATO, the 7.92mm as well as the .303 British, .30-06, .30 Carbine, 7.5mm French, 6.5mm Carcano, etc. were all used by NATO countries. As such they all have NATO designations. In fact, the 7.92mm is currently being used by Croatia in several weapon systems and Croatia is a member of NATO.http: [4]
2) Jane's Information Group is the world foremost military and firearms encyclopedia. To suppress every attempt to add a Jane's reference to this article, all the while adding references to dated, obscure books, written in German, by obscure authors show tremendous bias.
3) I have no problem explaining the origin of IS. However, it does not need to be explained in every section. We simply explain it once and move on.
4) This article is not about C.I.P. It is about the 7.92mm cartridge. Constantly referring to C.I.P in every paragraph is unnecessary. It gives the impression that it is only being done to suppress all other information.
C.I.P. has “the power of Law” as stated in the article several times, over commercial firearms and ammunition production in only a dozen European nations. It has NO POWER over military or government production. It has NO POWER outside of Europe. While I have no problem including C.I.P. information in this article, it is not the ONLY information that should be included in this article. To suppress all other information shows tremendous bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 19:12, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
The following image shows a case "7,92" Yugoslavian/Croatian military ammo. [5]
1) SAAMI does not have the power of C.I.P. in the United States...SAAMI is an industry sponsored organization created in attempt to standardize firearms and ammo production among its members. Not all U.S. manufactures are SAAMI members. And, not all members use the SAAMI designations. Also, SAAMI has no power over the vast amounts of firearms and ammo imported into the U.S. from all over the world. Therefore, the 7.92mm ammo has multiple designations within the U.S. It is dependent on the purchaser of said ammunition to know what they are buying.
This is why I am attempting to add a simple list to this article with the most common names and designations for 7.92mm ammunition. Whether or not it is an “official” C.I.P. or SAAMI designation is irrelevant, to the person buying the ammunition. They simply want a box of ammo that can be safely fired from their Mauser 98k type rifle.
2) Not all NATO designations have STANAG numbers….for example: the AK-47 and 7.62x39mm are NATO designation for the Soviet Avtomat Kalashikova and its M43 ammo. The Russian military does not and has never used these designations. However, the rest of the world does, and since the fall of the USSR, the Russians export the AK-47s and 7.62x39mm ammo using the NATO designation. Because, they do not care what the purchaser wants to call these items, as long as the money is deposited in the right account number.
3) I realize that you probably live in a country where C.I.P. dictates are handed down like “Zeus speaking from Mount Olympus”. This probably explains why you are constantly referring to them. Do you realize that you have referred to them 5 times during this brief discussion? However, to the rest of us living in the other 200 countries around the world, we don’t care about C.I.P. dictates. We just want to buy ammo that we can safely fire from our guns, no matter the designation.
So, again I recommend that we add the following list to the cartridge naming section…
Cartridge naming
The 7.92mm cartridge is also known by the following designations:
*8x57 IS
*7.92x57mm Mauser
*7.92x57mm
*7.92mm Mauser
*8mm Mauser'
*8×57mm
*8x57 JS
*7,9mm [6]
'WARNING: THE 8x57 IS AND 8x57 I ARE NOT THE SAME CARTRIDGE AND ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.
We should add this image somewhere.
Clearly, you do not understand how we buy ammunition in the United States. So, let me explain it to you…Most of the 7.92mm ammo sold in the U.S. is cheap military surplus ammo from all over the world. It is sold in the original military packaging; this includes wooden cases, tin cans, paper wrappings, even loose stripper-clips. Sometimes, you will buy 200 loose rounds on sale, in a U.S. GI .30 caliber ammo can with a stick-on label saying “YUGO 7.92mm”. No attempt is made to repack it in SAAMI approved boxes with SAAMI approved designations. If you are lucky, an employee at the gun store where you bought the ammo, wrote 7.92mm or 8mm on the packaging with a felt marker before stamping the price on it. Now, sometimes you may buy a box or two Russian Wolf ammo in SAAMI approved packaging, when the gun store runs out of the cheap surplus ammo (Romanian, Yugoslavian, Czechoslovakian, etc.). In most of the U.S., to buy ammo, you just walk into a gun store, tell them how much you want, pay for it and leave. Nobody ask to see identification, nobody cares how much ammo you buy, nobody cares why you are to buying it. The only thing they care about is if your credit card is approved.
That is fine with me....
Cartridge naming
The 7.92x57mm Mauser cartridge is also known by the following designations:
*8x57 IS
*8x57 JS
*7.92x57mm
*7.92mm Mauser
*7.92mm
*8×57mm
*8mm Mauser
*7,9mm [7]
'WARNING: THE "8x57 IS" AND "8x57 I" ARE NOT THE SAME CARTRIDGE AND ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.
This has been a fun debate, I actually looked forward to your responses...Now before I do anything...I want to be clear, that I intend to delete ALL of the information currently contained in the "Cartridge naming section" and replace it with the simple list. Unless, you want to add the list yourself and perhaps reformat and save some of the information.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 16:54, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Most of the catastrophic gun failures in the U.S. are directly related to reloaded ammo. There will always be people who want to push the edge of the envelope. And, they always say the same thing when it happens…”I’ve been reloading for years and never had a problem before…”. Then they sue everybody… more often than not they lose. I’ve watched people shoot 9mm ammo out of their .40 S&W pistols and then wonder aloud why their pistol malfunctions on every shot. I’ve watched people shoot .32 AUTO ammo out of their .32 caliber revolvers. I’ve watched people shoot .22 Long ammo out of the .22 Long Rifle pistols and struggle with one malfunction after another or shoot .22 LR ammo from their .22 Magnum revolvers. I’ve stopped people from attempting to shoot 7.92mm ammo out of their .30-06 rifles or 16 Gauge shells out of their 12 Gauge shotguns. I could write a book on the stupidity of the average gun owner. And, the best part is when you point their stupidity they tell you that their a “gun expert” and they know what they're doing, or thier uncle was a cop or in the Army and he said it was O.K. Or, they pack up their stuff and leave. The only saving grace is that the vast majority of gun owners never shoot their guns. They will buy a gun and a box of ammo, and put them in the closet for the next 50 years. When they die…their dumb gun hating wives and kids will sell the guns for pennies on the dollar...or, worse…I watched a woman surrender to the police over $500,000 worth of her dead husbands guns…just to get them out of her house.
I will leave the adding of the list and pruning to your capable hands…have fun… — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 17:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved to 7.92×57mm Mauser. Uncontested and in line with other articles in Category:Pistol and rifle cartridges. Favonian ( talk) 21:04, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
7.92 x 57mm Mauser → 7.92×57mm Mauser – This would establish format consistency with other cartridge article titles, which use "×" (without spaces) instead of " x " (with spaces). — Red XIV ( talk) 20:22, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Odd that no pronunciation is given. I'd think it'd be like "mowzer", but many say "mozer" or "mahzer". This is a glaring omission. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.88.11.102 ( talk) 05:10, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
The opening section is too long and overly detailed…It should be limited to one paragraph; I recommend that we simplify it as follows...
The 7.92×57mm Mauser (aka; 8 x 57 IS, 8x57mm and 8mm Mauser) is a rimless bottlenecked high-powered rifle cartridge that was adopted in 1905, by the German Empire. It remained in German service throughout both World Wars. In its day, the 7.92mm cartridge was one the world’s most popular military cartridges. The 7.92mm remains a popular sport and hunting cartridge.
The “Development” section should also be cleaned up as follows...
The 7.92mm cartridge was based on the earlier M/88 cartridge. The M/88 parent cartridge used a round-nosed bullet that was designed to be top-loaded into the magazine of the Gewehr 1888 rifle via an en bloc clip. The new 1905 pattern cartridge used a lighter aerodynamic bullet. The resulting cartridge had a higher velocity, a flatter trajectory and improved long-range accuracy. It was used in various rifles and machineguns; most notably the Mauser 98 type rifles and MG 42 machineguns.
The 7.92mm cartridge cases have been used as parent cases for several other necked down and necked up cartridges. A rimmed variant, the 8×57mm IRS, was also developed for single shot rifles and combination guns.
The deleted information is unnecessary or already included into other sections of this article. See explanations below… The opening section...
First paragraph…The SAAMI and C.I.P. references are not necessary…The “IS” and “JS” explanation is also unnecessary and fully explained elsewhere in the article.
Second paragraph…The first sentence is explained in the “Development” section. The rest of the paragraph is unnecessary information that has nothing to do with the 7.92mm cartridge.
Third paragraph…This redundant paragraph attempts to explain information contained in the opening sentence. Also, said information is repeated elsewhere in the article.
Fourth paragraph…The information contained in this paragraph is fully explained within its own section elsewhere in the article.
The “Development” section was simply cleaned up, and two stray sentences combined to form a second paragraph — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 17:46, 3 February 2012 (UTC) Actually it is not entirely accurate, every 8mm Mauser shell I have seen, and shot are rimmed versions, and they were all sourced from Germany. Yes they are usually used for sporting rifles, but are absolutely considered 8mm Mauser Shells i.e. rice paper like sheet included in the case of shells states 7.92x57 designated 8mm Mauser Rimmed. After reading this wiki I did some research and found it is not an uncommon or rare shell so should be included in opening statement. [1] -- 2602:306:CF5B:6C80:A970:5A61:8AF6:B873 ( talk) 18:06, 10 April 2014 (UTC)ShotShooter
References
Shouldn't the article at least somewhere mention the 8×60mm S cartridge, created after WWI when the manufacture of "military" cartridges was banned? They increased the case length by 3mm, and subtly stretched the neck to create an almost identical (albeit slightly more powerful) cartridge that could be used in older 8x57mm S rifles by a simple rechambering of the barrel. I was surprised there wasn't even a link in the "see also" section, or the "derivatives" section. The 8x60mm S is probably the closest derivative of the lot! I got a lot of good info off of this page http://www.germanguns.com/upload/archive/index.php/t-584.html?s=f2f6e2a2bc7854553c963696803bebcc, but in particular this entry down at the bottom which sort of cleared the whole muddle up:
"WOW, here is a lot to clean up! Please, keep in mind the time span from 1945 to now, 2012, is longer than the span from 1888 to 1945, when a lot of gun, caliber, cartridge and powder development took place. Many of the then popular cartridges are long obsolete, such as many contemporary American ones. Have you tried recently to buy some fresh ammo in .33 Win or .25 Rem at your local gunshop? The history of the 8mm cartridges is hard to understand for an American who has no access to old German language books, catalogs and hunting magazines. I claim to have learned something about it during the last half century, so let's begin at the beginning: When the original M88 = 8x57 cartridge was developed for military purposes, it used a long, heavy .318" 227gr round nose bullet, fully jacketed in thin, nickel plated steel. The original military M88 barrels had a groove diameter of .319" but this was deepened in 1892 to .321" to .323" to prolong barrel life. The early Gew98 rifles retained the oversize .323 grooves. The long, heavy round nose slugged up in these "oversize" bores and gave acceptable accuracy for the military. The civilian Suhl and Zella-Mehlis barrelmakers soon found out the tighter barrels shot better, so they adjusted groove- to bullet diameter. Unfortunately many followed the peasant's rule: "if tighter shoots better, much tighter will shoot much better" and overdid things. I have slugged some pre-WW1 8mm barrels that were only .315"! Remember, there were no set standards until 1940, so if the gun stood firing the "4000 at Beschusspatrone", everything was ok. When the German army started to modernize the 8x57 military cartridge after 1900 the new, light 10g = 154gr S = spitz = pointed bullets with their short bearing surface would not slug up on firing any more. Instead of changing the rifling specifications again, the bullet diameter was increased to .323". This allowed the already existing military rifles to be converted by simply enlarging the neck area and throat of the chamber to accept and release the new, slightly thicker bullets. Now the "military" S caliber differed considerably from the "civilian" I one. Apparently this bothered noone, as military and sporting loads were clearly separated and most bolt action I rifles shot the oversize military loads without alarming effects. The other way around, military S barrels still shot the old-fashioned long round-nose I bullets with reasonable accuracy. When the Versailles "peace treaty" was signed in 1920, the 100 000 men Reichswehr was only conceded a very limited supply of military cartridges, barely sufficient for the necessary training but designed to dry up within a few days in case of a new war and insufficient to build up reserve stocks. As the Austrians had already evaded a similar provision of theit St.Germain treaty by keeping the limited supply of war ammo in stock and issuing "civilian" soft-nose hunting ammo for target training to their troops, the manufacture of any ammunition that might be used in the military rifles was prohibited in Germany. So not the I or S bore was outlawed, but the making of any 8x57 rimless cartridges for civilian use. This ban on the 8x57, I and S, led to the development of the civilian hunting cartridge 8x60 to allow for rechambering the unfed 8x57 commercial bolt action rifles. Of course the I bullet diameter came first, as the .318" caliber was still deemed the more accurate one. But during the turmoils following the great war many military rifles "went under" and were sporterized for hunting use, so there was a small demand for light bullet S loads, so there was a limited offering of 8x60S loads. The 1921 RWS export catalog still shows the 8x57, not yet the 8x60, loaded with both 14.7g and 10g pointed bullets, but does not mention I or S bores. The mid-1920s Steigleder catalog still features the 8x57IR and the 8x60, but no more the 8x57 and not an 8x60R. Jon Speed in his book Mauser-OOSR shows a handwritten table from the Mauser factory, dated 1926, giving the commercial 8x57 (for export) and 8x60 rifles a groove diameter of .319 - .320", linked to the footnote " these rifles get the chamber and the throat for Spitz bullets, so that these may be used also." The 1930 Burgsmüller catalog shows the same offering, 8x57IR, 8x60 "as the replacement for the unavailable military 8x57" and the 8x64 Brenneke, but neither I nor S bores are mentioned. the 1934 DWM handbook shows 13 different loads for both the 8x57IR, 8x57R (A-base) and 8x57, but only 3 entries are marked "for use in S-barrels only". For the 8x60/8x60R the ratio is 5 out of 12 "S only", including the "Magnum Bombe" load. For the 8x64/65R Brenneke it is 2 out of 6, but still no S suffix to the cartridge designation. The 1937 RWS catalog shows a total of 40 8x57I and 8x57IR loads, one each marked "for S-barrels only." Some 8x60 and 8x60R loads are cataloged as "Magnum" loads for S barrels, but the S moniker is still not affixed to the cartridge name. The 1940 Rws Handbook finally shows the clear-cut difference between 8x57I, 8x57IR, 8x60 and 8x60R loads and the corresponding S cartridges. On page 43 these suggestions for a future change to "S caliber only": The rimless 8mm cartridges will be factory loaded with S =.323" bullets only, by the use of modern powders there will be no excessive pressure when shot through bolt-actions with I barrels. The 8x57IR will be available with I =.318" bullets only, there will be no 8x57IRS loads. The 8x60RS gets the knurled rim. As we know, this simplification never became true. After 1945 the German Hunters were disarmed. Many hid their guns away, but the majority of hunting guns was destroyed, liberated or looted. So today there are possibly more 8mmI guns in the USA than in Germany. When the German hunters were finally allowed to rearm in the early 1950s, few could afford new guns. Many unearthed -literally- their rust-pitted prewar guns and continued to use them. Others found rusty and rotten K98Ks in the woods, had the actions rebarreled with plentiful , leftover Luftwaffe machine gun barrels in 8x57IS, had them restocked and mounted with any old scope they could get. Though the European ammo companies thought otherwise at first, the I bore in new-made guns had become a thing of the past by the end of the 1950s. The ammo makers one after another ceased making I bullets and loads. The current offerings are rare. The 8x57R360, 8x58R, 8x57R(A), 8x51 are completely forgotten, the 8x57I is a pure handloading matter. RWS recently ceased making the 8x57IR, so the only I diameter factory load is the 8x57IR by Sellier&Bellot, the only bullet available to handloaders their 196gr rn sp.
(Unnecessary emphasis is mine) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt ( talk • contribs) 13:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Shouldn't this be called the "7.92x57 Mauser"? My understanding is that is the usual name for it. -- Cabalamat 15:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
No. The original military designation used a comma, and the CIP standards body still uses a comma. It is only the English speaking countries that use a period. Since this is a cartridge of European origin, and exact nomenclature is an important part of any cartridge's history, it is important to retain the original nomiker when referring to it in historical context. HangFire 02:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
-Alex, 74.133.188.197 03:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC).
-- Dutchguy 07:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The designations of the different countries should be recognised. The cartridge could say german and british sources one below the other so that way both would say, becose it is not fair to convert the original name, and is much better if it would say both german and english designation of the cartridge. Thank you. -Nemesis1000 83.131.149.119 10:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
8mm Mauser is never referred to as 7.92x57 Mauser. The actual dimensions are left in mm, or 7.92x57mm, or 8mm Mauser, not the combination of the two. Brenden 03:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The entire comma vs. dot history can be found at Decimal_separator. I agree with Nemesis1000 that redirects should be developed for alternate spellings such as "7.92 x 57", "7.92x57", "7,92 x 57", "JS", "IS", "8mm Mauser", etc.-- Raprat 15:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
The following should have either a citation or a technical justification: "The bullet has the best ratio of energy compared to the weight of the powder loaded in all commercial hunting cartridges." -- Raprat 14:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
It's nice to see some attention given to this article.
This statement is of the few remaining parts of the original stub. The statement might be true if narrowly constrained, such as, bottleneck major caliber service rifle cartridges from that era. That's rather complicated. I think the actual best cartridge as described would be the 45 Colt revolver cartridge in a modern smokeless loading, which gets about 1/4 of the energy of the Mauser cartridge with 1/9 of the powder weight. Anyway, rather than sort it all out, the best thing to do is probably delete the sentence or completely rewrite it. HangFire 01:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Merging this page with 7x57 would be as pointless as merging the geographical pages of Germany and Spain. Once fleshed out, both the 7,92x57 page and the 7x57 page will be very large entries indeed and the discussion will be whether they each need to be broken down into smaller pages. HangFire 03:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
As per the general consensus from the team at Wikiproject: Military History, it would seem that this article really ought to be named "7.92x57 Mauser", with no spaces- and using a decimal point instead of a comma. Regardless of whether or not the comma is "correct", it looks like a typo to 99.99% of Wikipedia readers. I thought I'd give people a chance to comment before arbitrarily changing the title, however. -- Commander Zulu 07:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
This has been argued many times and the consensus has been reached many times; the name of the cartridge originally had a comma, still does in all countries covered by the CIP; the American name does not use a period, or a comma for that matter- the American name is 8mm Mauser or 8x57 JS, and there are already redirects in place to cover those conventions. I'm sorry if this foreign name looks like a "typo" to you; perhaps you would like to Americanize everyone's foreign-sounding name by changing the spelling, too? See how far you get with THAT. HangFire 04:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not American, you know. -- Commander Zulu 08:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
So what? HangFire 00:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
So please don't accuse me of being on a quest to "Americanise" anything. If I wanted to Americanise this article, I would have proposed calling it "8mm Mauser" instead of a simple Anglicisation to 7.92x57 Mauser. Based on your "But that's what it was originally called!" argument, perhaps we should rename the Oxygen article dephlogisticated air and the Hawaii article Sandwich Islands as well? -- Commander Zulu 01:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Nobody ever blew up an action shooting the Sandwich Islands out of a I-bore barrel.
HangFire
00:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The article titled as it stands is wrong. It is either 7.92x57mm or 8mm Mauser. Not the combination of the two. Brenden 03:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Generally speaking, yes they do. That is why 7.92x57mm is also referred to as 8mm Mauser. Suggesting that a "disambiguator" is needed in the title due to non-shooters makes no sense. A page with multiple listings is then needed, not a change in title. I am pretty sure any real fan of a band called "7.92x57", if there is such a thing, or ".38 Special", would know where the band's name comes from. I also don't recall the local hardware stores selling 8mm wide pieces of wood. No one can assume it's an engineering equation either. Is this the only argument that exists for not just using the proper designation, 7.92x57mm? It's merely grabbing at straws. Brenden 00:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Right, I moved the article back to 7.92x57mm Mauser. This is where it will stay, unless a consensus is reached to move it. This is the accepted decimal separator in English, and this is the English WP. Thanks, chaps. Geoff B 23:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Now look what you all have done. "Now known in Europe as the 7.92x57mm JS"... but it is NOT known in Europe as the 7.92x57mm JS! You've also changed the HISTORICAL REFERENCES of this this many-named cartridge to something IT WAS NEVER CALLED. HangFire 04:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
It's hard enough keeping this page on its historically correct naming convention, you've got a tough row to how to convert ALL numbering to ISO 32. (ISO is great; remember when TP4 and all those other great new standard ISO protocols was going to replace funky old TCP/IP?) To put the EU's ISO in perspective, the whole of the EU has an economy the size of any three mid-size US states. Anyway, you missed a decimal. HangFire 01:02, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Sadly, DutchGuy, we on Wikipedia decide Wikipedia's style, and it has been decided that the full stop is the accepted decimal separator. Nor am I changing this article for 'the American home market'. I am not American, and perhaps you should not assume that everyone who edits this article in regards to the decimal separator issue is American. This is the English Wikipedia, and the full stop is the accepted decimal separator in English. Thank you. Geoff B 02:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
What the smeg is it with people assuming everyone on WP is American? I agree completely with Geoff B. The only English-speaking country that I know of that uses the comma instead of the decimal point is South Africa. The UK, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and most of the rest of the English-speaking world uses a decimal point. We may have to take this to arbitration if this article keeps getting moved back to the title involving a comma. -- Commander Zulu 07:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I've reverted Dutchguy's unilateral move again, since the consensus seems pretty strong to keep it at the name used in English. It may be worth monitoring Dutchguy's changes, or possibly bringing up a mediation/arbitration case, since he seems to be on a crusade to change all Wikipedia articles to use commas as a decimal separator. I've recently had to revert his edits to the manual of style itself, which should probably also be watched. -- Delirium 14:12, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Dutchguy has reverted the article name. Again. I hope people will stop assuming they know the motivation of others and we can talk reasonably about this, but that does not appear to be the case so far. Whether this takes dispute resolution, mediation or arbitration to sort out, I'm quite willing. Geoff B 17:26, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Arbitration might make sense. I do not agree with DutchGuy that all decimals should be moved to ISO notation. I only want the title to reflect the original notation and original standard name for the cartridge. Really, if this were the American English Wikipedia, it WOULD be 8mm Mauser, but it's the International English Wikipedia. What irks me about the whole thing is the dozens of articles that take you through 3 or more manual redirects to get to the page-name-of-the-day for this cartridge. The changers and reverters don't bother to go clean up the rest of the articles or even the hanging redirects. Most of them (which is to say, most of YOU) DON'T EVEN CONTRIBUTE to the page! You just move it back and forth. Seriously, though, the size of the biggest economy in the EU, Germany, is almost identical to that of the state of New York. You can work down from there, but hold California in reserve, because there is nothing to compare it to in the EU. And don't forget to deduct points for Portugal and R.o. Ireland. 69.137.35.23 03:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
@HangFire - We don't do that because we need this article to be stable before we can sort out all the redirects. If we sort out all the redirects, then the page gets changed back again, all our work would have been pointless. And please, stop bringing up economy size comparisons. They have nothing to do with what is going on here. If you want to compare whose 'economy' is the biggest, please go elsewhere, and no-one, apart from you, it seems, is awarding or deducting points. Bizarre.
@Dutchguy - Using full stops as a decimal point is A) Still standard usage in English and B) Is the WP convention for the decimal point, so it will be used. This has nothing to do with emothion, or 'old' habits, but everything to do with current language use. Geoff B 03:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I would note that Dutchguy is simply incorrect in his views of the International System of Units, which makes no requirement to use the comma or prohibition of the full stop. To quote our article on said system: "The 10th resolution of CGPM in 2003 declared that 'the symbol for the decimal marker shall be either the point on the line or the comma on the line'." So both are equally acceptable in the view of the CGPM, and therefore the SI. -- Delirium 20:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Dutchguy, saying things like "my views are perfectly right", "comma is king", "nostalgias of the obsolete ways" and "Come back when you know something about cartridges" betrays the fact that the only person here letting their feelings motivate them is you. 1) The full stop, or point, is the accepted decimal point in English. 2) This is the English Wikipedia. 3) It is also the accepted Wikipedian convention to use the full stop as the decimal point. That this is at odds with usage in other languages and ISO-Whatever is irrelevant. It's the way Wikipedia does it. I can't explain it any clearer.
Geoff B
13:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
GeoffvB is right. Dutchguy, you can jump up and down about the comma as a decimal separator (which, to me and the rest of the English-as-a-mother tongue-speaking world looks either like a typo or lazy translation). Look, in conventional English, the comma is used as a kind of mini-pause, if you will, denoting things in a list (amongst other uses). So, to almost all English speakers, "7,92" would be read as "Seven, Ninety-Two", with a tone indicating that one might expect another number after that. Alternatively, it might also be interpreted as "Seven and Ninety-Two". However, with the decimal point it immediately becomes clear to the English reader that it is "Seven Point Nine Two", and therefore some kind of precise measurement. As others have said, you're welcome to lobby the entire English-speaking world to change the way they write (Good luck!), but Wikipedia is not the place to do it. As a comparison, the Metric System has been officially in use in the US for many, many years- but it's not in actual common use amongst the general populace there in their everyday lives, at least as I understand it. -- Commander Zulu 00:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have issues with: "To avoid potentially serious accidents, it is impossible to over-stress the vital need for distinguishing clearly between cartridges loaded for these two different bullet diameters, and only firing them in appropriately chambered/barrelled rifles."
PO Ackley's (Engineer and Dean of the Colorodo School of Gunsmithing) post-WWII published experiments with overbore bullets in 8mm Mausers conclusively debunked this myth. Not to mention that Germany used JS bore bullets in J bores between 1905 and WWI by simply reaming the chamber and leade to allow the larger cartridge to be chambered, with no problems. There is substantial evidence that the sub-pressure 8x57 Mauser (American loading) cartridge exists primarily to keep Americans buying higher performing American loadings of domestic calibers, in other words, to keep surplus Mausers from competing with US made rifles.
Unless you can find some published research substantiating your assertion, we must consider Professor Ackley's scientific experiments to be the conclusive word on this subject, more conclusive than the usual gun writer blather- the same gun writers that depend on free gear and hunts from manufacturers interested in selling new rifles and new cartridges. This so-called data falls in the same class as CZ-52's being the strongest 7.62x25 chambered handgun, when in fact it is the weakest due to having the thinnest chamber wall. It is simply gun writer lore that gets repeated without substantiation or research. HangFire 02:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
With all due respect to Parker Ackley (whose work in general I much admire), I cannot agree that the two types of cartridge with deiffering buller diameters can be mixed with impunity, for the simple reason that I have seen a perfectly good European-made sporting rifle ruined - and its firer miraculously escape serious injury - when the incorrect diameter of bullet was inadvertently fired in it. The bullet stuck in the bore and the rifle shattered into pieces. This happened in Surrey, England, at the UK's NRA ranges there, in the 1980s. I know "one swallow doesn't make a summer", but in correspondence with various gunsmiths in Europe I was able to collect a good deal of evidence that such serious mishaps are by no means uncommon when the two types of 7.92x57 ammo are mixed.
Alas, P.O. Ackley also gets things wrong when he writes with withering condemnation about the .244 Holland & Holland Magnum. Sadly, he appears to have committed a very extreme opinion to print, without having anything more than rather perfunctory personal experience of this calibre. In my recent work on the .244 Wikipedia article, I have tried to put the record straight - especially as regards the rifles that blew up with this cartridge. It was the rifles' owners' fault, not that of the ammunition, which is perfectly fine - so long as the user appreciates that it is very extreme ammo. Various details, including material from the archives of David Lloyd (who invented the cartridge, and made rifles for it) and H&H, will be added as soon as I have fully verified them, and gone through the necessary courtesies with copyright owners etc. Clmckelvie 18:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I was wrong in my original discussion, Ackely's research involved firing 8mm/7.92 bullets IN 30 CALIBER BARRELS. This DID produce high pressure signs, but not nearly what was expected. As long as the rest of the system had integrity- if and only if- it was not a major safety factor IN AND OF ITSELF.
Throw in some combination weak or brittle brass, excessive headspace, unsupported head area due to improper rebarreling, handloading with the bullet seated hard against the lead, etc., and catastrophic results can certainly follow. Fine sporters made from other receivers can be found fragrmented everywhere, without tight bores being a factor, because the more important safety factor is not bore size, as conclusively proven by Ackley. The most important factors are: brass integrity, brass support, receiver integrity and gas handling. As certain as you are about the cause of your anecdote, I am certain there were other contributing factors besides bore size.
When you examined the receiver pieces, could you determine pre-catastrophe headspace? Unsupported case head protrusion? Receiver damage from sight mounting? Quality of heat threatment? A sound Mauser receiver will survive case head seperations (mine have), simply because they were designed to do so... provided their design parameters haven't been transgressed by time or bad gunsmithing (especially rebarrelling leaving incorrect bolt face/breech distance, which can be wildly wrong while having proper headspace), improper sight mounting (damaging receiver ring integrity), etc., etc.
Although totally irrelevant to this topic, PO Ackley was bang-on about the .244 H&H- It was a difficult cartridge to reload with the American powders at the time, did not make its performance claims, and had very short barrel life. That did not stop its popularity from its users who enjoyed the mild recoil, flat trajectory, and remarkable killing power. A wealthy person could tolerate a 600 shot barrel life shooting factory ammo for these benefits- Ackley's perspective was too value-oriented to tolerate the drawbacks.
Anyway, I'll give it another few days before I moderate your overblown warning, unless you care to do it yourself. Once again I must state, Ackley did the conclusive research on this topic, and just because someone blew up an action at a range once, doesn't invalidate controlled sample set research. HangFire 03:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
As a more general principle - and re your "before I moderate your overblown warning" - I think one can never "over-blow" the matter of firearms safety. Guns have a bad enough name already in some quarters without shooters being over-confident or cavalier and thus courting yet more criticism. It behoves everyone who writes about firearms anywhere, including Wiki, to caution care and advocate the precautionary principle at all times. It can save lives and prevent serious injury.
Parker Ackley's animadversions on the .244 H&H Magnum actually far outran the limited US-domestic parameters you refer to. He castigated it for faults that he fancied were there, but which actually aren't, and eventually dismissed it as "hopelessly overbore". His failing, alas, was to jump to extreme theoretical conclusions that went far beyond his actual, personal experience of the cartridge, which was rather limited. In any event, P.O.A. would certainly (like most US handloaders at that time) have had access to surplus .50BMG powders, and those can make the .244H&H perform pretty well, although they're perhaps not perfect.
Bill Ruger owned, used and admired the .244, and more importantly so too did Roy Weatherby, for whom it was the inspiration for the .240 Wby. As above stated, I much admire most of Ackley's work, but the man wasn't infallible (and he'd not have claimed it), and occasionally he got something wrong (as we all can). Clmckelvie 23:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Amusing. Consider this. The BMG powders that Ackley had access to were slower and more progressive than H&H's Cordite, and Weatherby's .240 has smaller case capacity than the .244, even though Weatherby consistantly sought higher performance than any other production firearm in his designs... and got it. When he didn't, he discontinued the chamberering, as he did with the 220 Rocket. Now, why would he make the case capacity smaller than the competition? He had access to larger parent cases....
HangFire 03:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The barrel diameter is irrelevant--the old barrels were toleranced from .315 to .321. The newer barrels from .320 to .327. So a .323 bullet (tolerance, IIRC from .320 to .325) might STILL be "Too large" for a modern barrel. The reason for the caution/change is that the THROAT DIAMETER is smaller in the J barrels. Those rechambered (NOT "Rebored") to S specs fire .323 just fine. All that was done was to ream the throat a little larger. Some had rifling recut a little deeper. Most were simply new barrels. The Turks fired "high power" 8mm through their 88s and 93s in WWII with no issues. People still fire them today. And I've yet to see a photo of one of these old rifles that has exploded and ripped a hole in the space-time continuum. There are a lot of shooters (including myself(yes, I realize WP:OR) who have been shooting milsurp ammo in the antiques for decades. It's a nonissue, as long as the proper CHAMBER is in the rifle. I have corrected this misinformation and internet rumor with a comment on chamber size. I will find a source when I have some time. Meantime, anyone perpetuating the "larger barrel" myth needs to provide their OWN citation for it. Mzmadmike ( talk) 16:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if something should be mentioned about the derivative cartridges made from this one. Examples: 9x57mm, 10x57mm, 10.5x57mm, et al.
COMMENT:
It would be helpful is this article depicted both the SAAMI and CIP drawings of this cartridge. They are not identical. Also, the drawing dates should be included. These sporting arms standards (SAAMI & CIP) have been revised over time. Since this cartridge was originally developed for military purposes, original dated milspec cartridge drawings should be included as well. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
66.217.228.118 (
talk)
06:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
REPLY: SAAMI drawings are copyrighted. RCBS went to the lengths of hiring their own draftsman to recreate SAAMI drawings in their reloading manual, even though they are a SAAMI member. Don't know about CIP. HangFire ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 03:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Just a little annotation: The German flag ist black-red-gold not black-white-gold as shown in this article. user: tabalooga (German Wikipedia) 2th Oct 2010 9:37 CEST —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.84.193 ( talk) 07:39, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Removed two Template:cn-Tags by GraemeLeggett. Reasons:
That there are an awful lot of references to the 8x57 JS cartridge as "7.92" (or other 8mil cartridges, like 8x33 Polte etc.) seems to be above any doubt.
I can, however, not provide proof that "no sources can be traced to Germany", and that's also not how it works.
I know of no sources in pre-war Germany that call the 8mil "7.92", and the C.I.P. dimensions do not include 7.92 mm (0.312 in) anywhere. Sources calling the cartridge "7.92" until now all have proved to be translations from US literature, quotations of US literature, or rip-offs of US literature. Neither C.I.P. nor SAAMI know of "7.92" as an official designation.
No one must provide quotations that show that there are NO sources calling something this-or-that. That's neigh impossible. One must provide, however, proof that there ARE sources calling something this-or-that. No such proof was found (and believe me, I did search) that 8x57JS was EVER called "7.92" in Germany w/o above exceptions in any context. Prove me wrong, and I am VERY MUCH oblieged, as it is a great mystery to me where the frack this "7.92" comes from.
So, this is no viable place for a "Citation needed"-Tag. A place where somebody explained where the 7.92 came from would be; and a good source for that would solve a real mystery.
Please reread the paragraph; it is trivial. Of course, two calibres that differ in one whole millimetre are not interchangeable. No proof needed there. I am a little bit confused that there had to be any mention of that. 8x57JS is also not interchangeable with 8x68S, 8x64 Brenneke, 7x64 Brenneke, or 9(x19) Parabellum, for that matter. -- Dingo ( talk) 15:41, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
So long, and thanks for the fish. It is a pity that there seems to be users who are unwilling or unable to contribute AND have admins that will back them even if sourcing and arguments are provided. I will go for a permanent block, and not "disrupt" WP any longer with strenuous sourcing work and verifiable sources. Pity for the hours providing the sources. Dingo ( talk) 00:41, 30 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.197.182.88 ( talk)
Reading this text about German military arms I have noticed constantly repeated mistake in designation of ammunition used for K 35 rifle or MG 18, or MG 42 machine gun. As far as I have learned the original designation of the caliber should be 8x57mm IS where 8mm stands for rounded measure of the bullet in milimeters, 57 for length of case, I for "Infanterie" - the infantry, and S for "Spitzgeschoss" or pointed nose bullet. Shorter name should be 8mmS, or concerning the artillery habit to designate caliber according to the diameter over fields of the barrel: 7,9mm. In addition to the famous inventor and manufacturer of the bolt action rifle military designation should be 7,9mm Mauser. 8x57IS stays more as civil designation for sporting/hunting rifles and ammunition. Just before the WWI German army introduced new ammunition and chambering 8x57IS for standard Mauser Model 1889 bolt action infantry rifle, till then chambered only for 8x57I. New caliber differed from previous, by slightly larger diameter (7.89mm over fields and 8,20mm over grooves) and another more obvious feature - pointed full metal jacket bullet, demanding new extrusion/pressing manufacturing technologies, but offering better ballistic performances compared to his predcessor with slightly smaller diameter (7,81mm over fields and 8,10mm over grooves) with prominent round-nosed bullet and "civil" designation 8x57I. Important consequence that distinguishes this two calibers, which was the probable intention of the designer, was interchangeability: you could shoot 8x57I from both rifles (chambered for 8x57I and 8x57IS), but if you try to shoot 8x57IS round from 8x57I chambered rifle, damage to the rifle, with severe consequences for the shooter are inevitable. Still ,mostly in some private collections you could find rifles chambered for 8x57I cartridge, and famous German ammunition factory RWS still produces this ammunition. Mistake in designation 7,92mm probably was caused by byrocratic inertia, due to the often, but quite correct transcription of the famoust US .30-06 Springfield caliber in metric measures as 7,62x63mm (0,300 in x 25,4mm/in = 7,62mm). The same is with Soviet/Russian standard rifle caliber from both WWs 7,62x54R (R is for "Rand" in German or "flange" in English), more recent well known 7,62x39AK47, or modern NATO machine gun ammunition caliber 7,62x51mm originally .308 Winchester cartridge designed in 1951 to replace .30-06, with same bullet but shorter, more compact case where .308 stands for diameter of the barrel measured over grooves (.308in = 7,82mm) which is, in fact diameter of all .30 or .300 or .308 designated bullets. Please avoid the mistake; designation "7,92mm" just doesn't have any sense. For now on choose between 7,9mm Mauser or, more correct 8x57IS as designation for certain firearms caliber.
Kind regards,
George B. Vukovic M.Sc. Mech.Eng. Beograd, Serbia [1]
The result of the move request was: Article moved, listed for over 3 weeks with no objections ~~ GB fan ~~ 07:38, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
7.92x57mm Mauser →
8x57 IS — Relisted.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 19:18, 14 November 2010 (UTC) Relisted.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 21:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC) Correct C.I.P. Designation. "7.92x57" seems to be a USA-speciality, probably due to shooting regulations (caliber < 8mm?)
Dingo (
talk)
12:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm a little at a loss about the "German military designation"-part.
I heard about "7.92x57mm" only in US-based publications. I have consulted now "Reibert, Der Dienstunterricht im Heere", 1940-edition, and "Der Karabiner", Heinz Denckler-Verlag Berlin C2. Both call the caliber of the lands in the barrel of the rifle "7,9 mm"; the ammunition is just "Scharfe Patrone S (Spitzgeschoß)" (Life Cartridge S (Spitz(er)-Bullet)). In a tract about the different bullets for the cartridge (sS - schweres Spitzgeschoß, SmK Spitz mit Kern, Leuchtspur - heavy Spitzer, Spitzer with (steel-)Core, Tracer...), the caliber is called just "7,9mm".
In the civil sector, the caliber was just called "8x57 IS", or, as in German capital I and J were often synonymous, "8x57 JS".
Now:
There are some sources (normally civilian) post-1945 who use "7.92x57" (eg, German wikipedia) - this is, however, just from US-sources.
I will make a paragraph about the cartridge in the Wehrmacht. From the main paragraph, I will delete the "German military"-part until further sources.
So long, -- Dingo ( talk) 13:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
References
I improved the readability of some tables and did some (imo) non controversial CE. This has been reverted twice without comment by Gunnai. I notice that he simply deletes anything put on his talk page, so I invite his and other opinions here. ( Hohum @) 02:28, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
After MFIreland began an Edit War in 7.92x33mm Kurz, here are my sources and how they represent the 8mm cartridges:
Conclusion: By all those sources, it can be statet that:
I hope that brings the discussion back to the subject and averts further Edit wars and cn-orgys ( WP:DND). No, this was NOT all the literature there is about the weapons and calibres. But I dare say that it is a very good sample. -- Dingo ( talk) 21:09, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:43, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
8x57 IS →
8x57mm IS — Relisted.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
08:01, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
This move is pointless, there is NO SUCH CARTRIDGE (sorry to shout) as 8x57IS or 8x57mm IS. There is an SAAMI (American) cartridge designation of 8mm Mauser a.k.a. 8x57JS (note "J" not "I"), and a German military designation of 7,92x57mm IS. Both names being discussed are some odd admixture of the two proper names. However, I've fought this battle many times before, and there are some very adamant people here who insist on getting it wrong. HangFire ( talk) 21:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per request. - GTBacchus( talk) 21:50, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
7.92×57mm →
8×57mm IS – It is good practice to use nomenclature that is consistent/in line with how Wikipedia denotes cartridges to keep things as recognizable/uniform as possible; see
Wikipedia:Article titles. I know the designation 8×57mm IS is not used by the
C.I.P. (8 x 57 IS) nor the
SAAMI (8x57 or 8mm Mauser). The 8×57mm IS nomenclature is however in line with the metric cartridge nomenclature used in Wikipedia; A x Bmm Other stuff. The current 7.92×57mm nomenclature is not used by the C.I.P., the SAAMI nor Wikipedia. The 8×57mm IS nomenclature would be consistent with the nomenclature used in the
Category:Pistol and rifle cartridges and
Category:Military cartridges lists.
Is it possible for a moderator to protect this article's name against moves since we have had similar discussions several times (see previous discussions above)?-- Francis Flinch ( talk)-- Francis Flinch ( talk) 08:01, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
First, it is good that User:MFIreland got the boot. Now, based on standardised nomenclature, real work can be done. C.I.P. and SAAMI agree that it is 8x57 IS, and not "7.92".
Now, it may be that the "7.92mm" was used in Great Britain, Poland and probably Czechoslovakia, both Poland and Czechoslovakia working together with GB as part of the Cordon Sanitaire in the Interwar Period. Perhaps the task forces for those countries in the "Military History"-portal could check this?
EVEN IF the nomenclature is confirmed (which would be no wonder, as it is awfully widespread), it rests a fact that the vast majority of 8x57 weapons were produced in Germany and the Central Powers/ Axis and were designated 8x57 (civil) or 7.9mm (military). It was even a law in parts of the German states that hunters and marksmen had to have their rifles in the ordonance calibre of the military. (The prussian minister of war noted "with concern" that sporting rifles had no longer bayonet lugs in the late 19th century.) The designation of the calibre was and is 8x57 I(nfantrie)S(pitz), and that is confirmed by BOTH C.I.P. and SAAMI.
So even after the "7.92" riddle is solved, there is NO NEED to move the article as the most common designation is 8mm. -- Hornsignal ( talk) 09:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Given the move history from the discussions above, I'm surprised to see it at this name which was apparently not discussed and seems to be one of the first names for this article. If any further moves are contemplated they should only be done after a public discussion that garners a consensus. Vegaswikian ( talk) 06:41, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
7.92 x 57mm Mauser → 8×57mm IS – It is good practice to use nomenclature that is consistent/in line with how Wikipedia denotes cartridges to keep things as recognizable/uniform as possible; see Wikipedia:Article titles. I know the designation 8×57mm IS is not used by the C.I.P. (8 x 57 IS) nor the SAAMI (8x57 or 8mm Mauser). The 8×57mm IS nomenclature is however in line with the metric cartridge nomenclature used in Wikipedia; AxBmm Other stuff. The current 7.92 × 57mm Mauser nomenclature is not used by the C.I.P. (The United Kingdom is a C.I.P. member state), the SAAMI nor Wikipedia. The 8×57mm IS nomenclature would be consistent with the nomenclature used in the Category:Pistol and rifle cartridges and Category:Military cartridges lists. Further I can not find an image of a 7.92 × 57mm Mauser marked box of cartridges. Images of ammunition boxes containing military 7.9 ammunition and 8×57 I(R)S and 8×57 J(R)S ammunition for export to the Anglo-Saxon market can be easily found. Is it possible for a moderator to protect this article's name against moves since we have had similar discussions several times (see previous discussions above)?relisted---- Francis Flinch ( talk) 09:09, 10 January 2012 (UTC) relisted-- Mike Cline ( talk) 15:31, 2 January 2012 (UTC) -- Francis Flinch ( talk)-- Francis Flinch ( talk) 08:01, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
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I took some photos of some German WW2 ammunition that I have, I uploaded it to commons, can somebody place it in the main 7.92x57mm Wiki article?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AWorld_War_2_German_ammunition.JPG
Thanks!
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Arielnyc2006 ( talk • contribs) 20:34, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
The Gewehr 888 originally chambered for the M/88 service cartridge. In 1905, after a service period of 17 years, the 8 mm M/88 cartridge which was introduced in 1888 and loaded with a 8.08 mm (.318 in) diameter 14.6 g (226 gr) round nose bullet was replaced by the 8x57mm IS/7.92×57mm Mauser service cartridge which was loaded with a new 8.20 mm (.323 in) diameter 9.9 g (154 gr) spitzer bullet. The introduction of this new service ammunition offered improved accuracy and a flatter trajectory at the price that the existing military rifle stock had to be rechambered and rebarreled. Esthablishing to chambering of a Gewehr 1888 is important the 1888 pattern M/88 cartridge and 1905 S-bore pattern cartridges are two different non interchangeable chamberings. Besides the military developed S-bore a narrower I-bore was developed by civilian gunsmiths according to the groove and bore diameter ratio principles used in the S-bore to improve the M/88 accuracy whist retaining the smaller projectile diameter of the M/88. This ammunition is in 2012 known as the 8x57 I. Just like the 8x57 IS the 8x57 I chambering differs from the parental M/88 chambering. The original military M/88 chambering is not factory produced anymore and has effectively been replaced by the civilian 8x57 I chambering that can be fired safely from historic rifles (besides using larger diameter bullets the 8x57 IS has a higher service pressure). Logic dictates that firing 8x57 I from 8x57 IS chambered arms will have adverse effects on accuracy. The article 8×57mm IS cartridge portrait - Totgesagte leben länger, Wild und Hund 11/2006 (in German) explains the history from M/88 to 8x57 mm IS and 8x57mm I from military and civilian use perspectives in even more detail.-- Francis Flinch ( talk) 13:58, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
I took a photograph of WW2 German 7.92x57 "Spitzer with core" yellow bullet, red annulus color, can somebody place it in the 7.92x57mm Wiki?
Thanks! ˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arielnyc2006 ( talk • contribs) 02:47, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AWorld_War_2_German_7.92x57IS_Spitzer_with_core.JPG — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arielnyc2006 ( talk • contribs) 02:44, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
This article has several False Reference that make no mention of 7.92mm, 8mm or whatever you want to call it ammo. I have tried to remove them myself but other users continue to restore them...Also, there is an effort to maintain reference links that have been dead for over a year...I can only assume that this is being done to artificially inflate the number of references in this article and to support questionable information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 17:35, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I believe that the "8mm cartridges compared" section is supposed to show that there are five other 8mm type cartridges, that they have higher muzzle velocities than the 7.92mm, for five different bullet weights and that they also have greater case capacities. However, nowhere in the section is there a single muzzle velocity or case capacity listed. It only shows percentages. This is not only confusing it seems rather pointless. It has been flagged for over a year...I recommend that we delete the entire section...I cannot imagine that it will be missed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 05:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Cartridge naming section is too long and unnecessary detailed...I recommend the simple list that follows...
Cartridge naming
Current military and NATO designations:
Current European commercial or C.I.P. designations:
Current North American commercial and SAAMI designations:
Obsolete Germany military designations:
Obsolete British military designations:
All of the above information was taken from the article itself...I agree...most of it is questionable information that should be deleted...therefore:
1) We both agree that all references to the following designations within this article be deleted...
2) We should also delete the 8mm I information from this article as it's easily confused with 8mm IS. And, add a very clearly worded safety warning.
3) We should then add Jane's Information Group references explaining the origins of 7.92mm designations (i.e. the Germans lost WW2...Germany was then occupied by the allied powers...by the time West Germany joined NATO it was American and British controlled club...and English language designations were and remain the official NATO designations.) A simple Google search for “Jane's 7.92mm” will provide thousands of Jane’s references…take your pick…see: [2]
4) In the United States, a large amount of surplus military 7.92mm ammo is sold in the original military packaging…as 7.92mm. A simple Google search for “7.92mm ammo” will provide you with 7.92mm head-stamp pictures…see: [3]
So, I recommend the following changes to the list…
Cartridge naming
Military and NATO designations: (insert Jane's Information Group references here)
*7.92x57mm Mauser | 7.92x57mm | 7.92mm Mauser
European commercial or C.I.P. designations:
*8x57 IS
North American military surplus, commercial and SAAMI designations:
*7.92x57mm Mauser | 7.92x57mm | 7.92mm Mauser | 8mm Mauser | 8×57mm
WARNING: THE 8x57 IS AND 8x57 I ARE NOT THE SAME CARTRIDGE AND ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.
Any additional designations can be easily added in the future, by using the same format…What do you think?
I think it is a good idea to leave the historical British and US military designations in the article since they used the 7.92 mm wording that obviously lead to all sorts of nomenclature distortions, though not one dimension found in the cartridge and chamber drawings is actually 7.92 mm.-- Francis Flinch ( talk) 09:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
All I am proposing here is a simple list…that the reader can use as a quick reference…that gives the various names and designations for the 7.92mm cartridge…without needless confusing commentary and explanations. Perhaps the following list is better suited to this article….
Cartridge naming
The 7.92mm cartridge is also known by the following designations:
*8x57 IS
*7.92x57mm Mauser
*7.92x57mm
*7.92mm Mauser
*8mm Mauser
*8×57mm
*7,9mm
WARNING: THE 8x57 IS AND 8x57 I ARE NOT THE SAME CARTRIDGE AND ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.
I even put the C.I.P designation at the top of the list.
Also...
1) Before the adoption of the 7.62mm NATO, the 7.92mm as well as the .303 British, .30-06, .30 Carbine, 7.5mm French, 6.5mm Carcano, etc. were all used by NATO countries. As such they all have NATO designations. In fact, the 7.92mm is currently being used by Croatia in several weapon systems and Croatia is a member of NATO.http: [4]
2) Jane's Information Group is the world foremost military and firearms encyclopedia. To suppress every attempt to add a Jane's reference to this article, all the while adding references to dated, obscure books, written in German, by obscure authors show tremendous bias.
3) I have no problem explaining the origin of IS. However, it does not need to be explained in every section. We simply explain it once and move on.
4) This article is not about C.I.P. It is about the 7.92mm cartridge. Constantly referring to C.I.P in every paragraph is unnecessary. It gives the impression that it is only being done to suppress all other information.
C.I.P. has “the power of Law” as stated in the article several times, over commercial firearms and ammunition production in only a dozen European nations. It has NO POWER over military or government production. It has NO POWER outside of Europe. While I have no problem including C.I.P. information in this article, it is not the ONLY information that should be included in this article. To suppress all other information shows tremendous bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 19:12, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
The following image shows a case "7,92" Yugoslavian/Croatian military ammo. [5]
1) SAAMI does not have the power of C.I.P. in the United States...SAAMI is an industry sponsored organization created in attempt to standardize firearms and ammo production among its members. Not all U.S. manufactures are SAAMI members. And, not all members use the SAAMI designations. Also, SAAMI has no power over the vast amounts of firearms and ammo imported into the U.S. from all over the world. Therefore, the 7.92mm ammo has multiple designations within the U.S. It is dependent on the purchaser of said ammunition to know what they are buying.
This is why I am attempting to add a simple list to this article with the most common names and designations for 7.92mm ammunition. Whether or not it is an “official” C.I.P. or SAAMI designation is irrelevant, to the person buying the ammunition. They simply want a box of ammo that can be safely fired from their Mauser 98k type rifle.
2) Not all NATO designations have STANAG numbers….for example: the AK-47 and 7.62x39mm are NATO designation for the Soviet Avtomat Kalashikova and its M43 ammo. The Russian military does not and has never used these designations. However, the rest of the world does, and since the fall of the USSR, the Russians export the AK-47s and 7.62x39mm ammo using the NATO designation. Because, they do not care what the purchaser wants to call these items, as long as the money is deposited in the right account number.
3) I realize that you probably live in a country where C.I.P. dictates are handed down like “Zeus speaking from Mount Olympus”. This probably explains why you are constantly referring to them. Do you realize that you have referred to them 5 times during this brief discussion? However, to the rest of us living in the other 200 countries around the world, we don’t care about C.I.P. dictates. We just want to buy ammo that we can safely fire from our guns, no matter the designation.
So, again I recommend that we add the following list to the cartridge naming section…
Cartridge naming
The 7.92mm cartridge is also known by the following designations:
*8x57 IS
*7.92x57mm Mauser
*7.92x57mm
*7.92mm Mauser
*8mm Mauser'
*8×57mm
*8x57 JS
*7,9mm [6]
'WARNING: THE 8x57 IS AND 8x57 I ARE NOT THE SAME CARTRIDGE AND ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.
We should add this image somewhere.
Clearly, you do not understand how we buy ammunition in the United States. So, let me explain it to you…Most of the 7.92mm ammo sold in the U.S. is cheap military surplus ammo from all over the world. It is sold in the original military packaging; this includes wooden cases, tin cans, paper wrappings, even loose stripper-clips. Sometimes, you will buy 200 loose rounds on sale, in a U.S. GI .30 caliber ammo can with a stick-on label saying “YUGO 7.92mm”. No attempt is made to repack it in SAAMI approved boxes with SAAMI approved designations. If you are lucky, an employee at the gun store where you bought the ammo, wrote 7.92mm or 8mm on the packaging with a felt marker before stamping the price on it. Now, sometimes you may buy a box or two Russian Wolf ammo in SAAMI approved packaging, when the gun store runs out of the cheap surplus ammo (Romanian, Yugoslavian, Czechoslovakian, etc.). In most of the U.S., to buy ammo, you just walk into a gun store, tell them how much you want, pay for it and leave. Nobody ask to see identification, nobody cares how much ammo you buy, nobody cares why you are to buying it. The only thing they care about is if your credit card is approved.
That is fine with me....
Cartridge naming
The 7.92x57mm Mauser cartridge is also known by the following designations:
*8x57 IS
*8x57 JS
*7.92x57mm
*7.92mm Mauser
*7.92mm
*8×57mm
*8mm Mauser
*7,9mm [7]
'WARNING: THE "8x57 IS" AND "8x57 I" ARE NOT THE SAME CARTRIDGE AND ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.
This has been a fun debate, I actually looked forward to your responses...Now before I do anything...I want to be clear, that I intend to delete ALL of the information currently contained in the "Cartridge naming section" and replace it with the simple list. Unless, you want to add the list yourself and perhaps reformat and save some of the information.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 16:54, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Most of the catastrophic gun failures in the U.S. are directly related to reloaded ammo. There will always be people who want to push the edge of the envelope. And, they always say the same thing when it happens…”I’ve been reloading for years and never had a problem before…”. Then they sue everybody… more often than not they lose. I’ve watched people shoot 9mm ammo out of their .40 S&W pistols and then wonder aloud why their pistol malfunctions on every shot. I’ve watched people shoot .32 AUTO ammo out of their .32 caliber revolvers. I’ve watched people shoot .22 Long ammo out of the .22 Long Rifle pistols and struggle with one malfunction after another or shoot .22 LR ammo from their .22 Magnum revolvers. I’ve stopped people from attempting to shoot 7.92mm ammo out of their .30-06 rifles or 16 Gauge shells out of their 12 Gauge shotguns. I could write a book on the stupidity of the average gun owner. And, the best part is when you point their stupidity they tell you that their a “gun expert” and they know what they're doing, or thier uncle was a cop or in the Army and he said it was O.K. Or, they pack up their stuff and leave. The only saving grace is that the vast majority of gun owners never shoot their guns. They will buy a gun and a box of ammo, and put them in the closet for the next 50 years. When they die…their dumb gun hating wives and kids will sell the guns for pennies on the dollar...or, worse…I watched a woman surrender to the police over $500,000 worth of her dead husbands guns…just to get them out of her house.
I will leave the adding of the list and pruning to your capable hands…have fun… — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 17:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved to 7.92×57mm Mauser. Uncontested and in line with other articles in Category:Pistol and rifle cartridges. Favonian ( talk) 21:04, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
7.92 x 57mm Mauser → 7.92×57mm Mauser – This would establish format consistency with other cartridge article titles, which use "×" (without spaces) instead of " x " (with spaces). — Red XIV ( talk) 20:22, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Odd that no pronunciation is given. I'd think it'd be like "mowzer", but many say "mozer" or "mahzer". This is a glaring omission. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.88.11.102 ( talk) 05:10, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
The opening section is too long and overly detailed…It should be limited to one paragraph; I recommend that we simplify it as follows...
The 7.92×57mm Mauser (aka; 8 x 57 IS, 8x57mm and 8mm Mauser) is a rimless bottlenecked high-powered rifle cartridge that was adopted in 1905, by the German Empire. It remained in German service throughout both World Wars. In its day, the 7.92mm cartridge was one the world’s most popular military cartridges. The 7.92mm remains a popular sport and hunting cartridge.
The “Development” section should also be cleaned up as follows...
The 7.92mm cartridge was based on the earlier M/88 cartridge. The M/88 parent cartridge used a round-nosed bullet that was designed to be top-loaded into the magazine of the Gewehr 1888 rifle via an en bloc clip. The new 1905 pattern cartridge used a lighter aerodynamic bullet. The resulting cartridge had a higher velocity, a flatter trajectory and improved long-range accuracy. It was used in various rifles and machineguns; most notably the Mauser 98 type rifles and MG 42 machineguns.
The 7.92mm cartridge cases have been used as parent cases for several other necked down and necked up cartridges. A rimmed variant, the 8×57mm IRS, was also developed for single shot rifles and combination guns.
The deleted information is unnecessary or already included into other sections of this article. See explanations below… The opening section...
First paragraph…The SAAMI and C.I.P. references are not necessary…The “IS” and “JS” explanation is also unnecessary and fully explained elsewhere in the article.
Second paragraph…The first sentence is explained in the “Development” section. The rest of the paragraph is unnecessary information that has nothing to do with the 7.92mm cartridge.
Third paragraph…This redundant paragraph attempts to explain information contained in the opening sentence. Also, said information is repeated elsewhere in the article.
Fourth paragraph…The information contained in this paragraph is fully explained within its own section elsewhere in the article.
The “Development” section was simply cleaned up, and two stray sentences combined to form a second paragraph — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 ( talk) 17:46, 3 February 2012 (UTC) Actually it is not entirely accurate, every 8mm Mauser shell I have seen, and shot are rimmed versions, and they were all sourced from Germany. Yes they are usually used for sporting rifles, but are absolutely considered 8mm Mauser Shells i.e. rice paper like sheet included in the case of shells states 7.92x57 designated 8mm Mauser Rimmed. After reading this wiki I did some research and found it is not an uncommon or rare shell so should be included in opening statement. [1] -- 2602:306:CF5B:6C80:A970:5A61:8AF6:B873 ( talk) 18:06, 10 April 2014 (UTC)ShotShooter
References
Shouldn't the article at least somewhere mention the 8×60mm S cartridge, created after WWI when the manufacture of "military" cartridges was banned? They increased the case length by 3mm, and subtly stretched the neck to create an almost identical (albeit slightly more powerful) cartridge that could be used in older 8x57mm S rifles by a simple rechambering of the barrel. I was surprised there wasn't even a link in the "see also" section, or the "derivatives" section. The 8x60mm S is probably the closest derivative of the lot! I got a lot of good info off of this page http://www.germanguns.com/upload/archive/index.php/t-584.html?s=f2f6e2a2bc7854553c963696803bebcc, but in particular this entry down at the bottom which sort of cleared the whole muddle up:
"WOW, here is a lot to clean up! Please, keep in mind the time span from 1945 to now, 2012, is longer than the span from 1888 to 1945, when a lot of gun, caliber, cartridge and powder development took place. Many of the then popular cartridges are long obsolete, such as many contemporary American ones. Have you tried recently to buy some fresh ammo in .33 Win or .25 Rem at your local gunshop? The history of the 8mm cartridges is hard to understand for an American who has no access to old German language books, catalogs and hunting magazines. I claim to have learned something about it during the last half century, so let's begin at the beginning: When the original M88 = 8x57 cartridge was developed for military purposes, it used a long, heavy .318" 227gr round nose bullet, fully jacketed in thin, nickel plated steel. The original military M88 barrels had a groove diameter of .319" but this was deepened in 1892 to .321" to .323" to prolong barrel life. The early Gew98 rifles retained the oversize .323 grooves. The long, heavy round nose slugged up in these "oversize" bores and gave acceptable accuracy for the military. The civilian Suhl and Zella-Mehlis barrelmakers soon found out the tighter barrels shot better, so they adjusted groove- to bullet diameter. Unfortunately many followed the peasant's rule: "if tighter shoots better, much tighter will shoot much better" and overdid things. I have slugged some pre-WW1 8mm barrels that were only .315"! Remember, there were no set standards until 1940, so if the gun stood firing the "4000 at Beschusspatrone", everything was ok. When the German army started to modernize the 8x57 military cartridge after 1900 the new, light 10g = 154gr S = spitz = pointed bullets with their short bearing surface would not slug up on firing any more. Instead of changing the rifling specifications again, the bullet diameter was increased to .323". This allowed the already existing military rifles to be converted by simply enlarging the neck area and throat of the chamber to accept and release the new, slightly thicker bullets. Now the "military" S caliber differed considerably from the "civilian" I one. Apparently this bothered noone, as military and sporting loads were clearly separated and most bolt action I rifles shot the oversize military loads without alarming effects. The other way around, military S barrels still shot the old-fashioned long round-nose I bullets with reasonable accuracy. When the Versailles "peace treaty" was signed in 1920, the 100 000 men Reichswehr was only conceded a very limited supply of military cartridges, barely sufficient for the necessary training but designed to dry up within a few days in case of a new war and insufficient to build up reserve stocks. As the Austrians had already evaded a similar provision of theit St.Germain treaty by keeping the limited supply of war ammo in stock and issuing "civilian" soft-nose hunting ammo for target training to their troops, the manufacture of any ammunition that might be used in the military rifles was prohibited in Germany. So not the I or S bore was outlawed, but the making of any 8x57 rimless cartridges for civilian use. This ban on the 8x57, I and S, led to the development of the civilian hunting cartridge 8x60 to allow for rechambering the unfed 8x57 commercial bolt action rifles. Of course the I bullet diameter came first, as the .318" caliber was still deemed the more accurate one. But during the turmoils following the great war many military rifles "went under" and were sporterized for hunting use, so there was a small demand for light bullet S loads, so there was a limited offering of 8x60S loads. The 1921 RWS export catalog still shows the 8x57, not yet the 8x60, loaded with both 14.7g and 10g pointed bullets, but does not mention I or S bores. The mid-1920s Steigleder catalog still features the 8x57IR and the 8x60, but no more the 8x57 and not an 8x60R. Jon Speed in his book Mauser-OOSR shows a handwritten table from the Mauser factory, dated 1926, giving the commercial 8x57 (for export) and 8x60 rifles a groove diameter of .319 - .320", linked to the footnote " these rifles get the chamber and the throat for Spitz bullets, so that these may be used also." The 1930 Burgsmüller catalog shows the same offering, 8x57IR, 8x60 "as the replacement for the unavailable military 8x57" and the 8x64 Brenneke, but neither I nor S bores are mentioned. the 1934 DWM handbook shows 13 different loads for both the 8x57IR, 8x57R (A-base) and 8x57, but only 3 entries are marked "for use in S-barrels only". For the 8x60/8x60R the ratio is 5 out of 12 "S only", including the "Magnum Bombe" load. For the 8x64/65R Brenneke it is 2 out of 6, but still no S suffix to the cartridge designation. The 1937 RWS catalog shows a total of 40 8x57I and 8x57IR loads, one each marked "for S-barrels only." Some 8x60 and 8x60R loads are cataloged as "Magnum" loads for S barrels, but the S moniker is still not affixed to the cartridge name. The 1940 Rws Handbook finally shows the clear-cut difference between 8x57I, 8x57IR, 8x60 and 8x60R loads and the corresponding S cartridges. On page 43 these suggestions for a future change to "S caliber only": The rimless 8mm cartridges will be factory loaded with S =.323" bullets only, by the use of modern powders there will be no excessive pressure when shot through bolt-actions with I barrels. The 8x57IR will be available with I =.318" bullets only, there will be no 8x57IRS loads. The 8x60RS gets the knurled rim. As we know, this simplification never became true. After 1945 the German Hunters were disarmed. Many hid their guns away, but the majority of hunting guns was destroyed, liberated or looted. So today there are possibly more 8mmI guns in the USA than in Germany. When the German hunters were finally allowed to rearm in the early 1950s, few could afford new guns. Many unearthed -literally- their rust-pitted prewar guns and continued to use them. Others found rusty and rotten K98Ks in the woods, had the actions rebarreled with plentiful , leftover Luftwaffe machine gun barrels in 8x57IS, had them restocked and mounted with any old scope they could get. Though the European ammo companies thought otherwise at first, the I bore in new-made guns had become a thing of the past by the end of the 1950s. The ammo makers one after another ceased making I bullets and loads. The current offerings are rare. The 8x57R360, 8x58R, 8x57R(A), 8x51 are completely forgotten, the 8x57I is a pure handloading matter. RWS recently ceased making the 8x57IR, so the only I diameter factory load is the 8x57IR by Sellier&Bellot, the only bullet available to handloaders their 196gr rn sp.
(Unnecessary emphasis is mine) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt ( talk • contribs) 13:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)