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Hi, Sander. I noticed that you added an Estonian article into the piece (your changes marked in italics here):
According to the Russian sources, the unit was involved in anti-partisan activity in various areas of the European Soviet Union, including against the population of the Belarusian villages of Babino, Khabalovo, and Chigirinka, which were burned to the ground in an effort to suppress partisan activity against the Axis forces[2]; however, the battalion never fought in Belarus.[3]
However, the source for this seems to suggest that even Estonians disagree about whether the battalion fought in Belarus (the article is authored by Vaino Kallas and criticizes work by Edgar Savisaar – it is a critical book review). The text goes:
Savisaar further writes: "It is after all, the fact that the German army fought alongside the [Estonian] police in Russia [during the burning of the]... villages.
Here the author is wrong, either knowingly or unknowingly...[the] Estonian military recognized and highly esteemed Colonel Alfons Rebane has never served the police, burnt villages behind Russian or terrorize civilians...the Battalion was not in Belarus or Ukraine."
(Quick Google machine translation of said article: [1])
Optimal, of course, would be modifying this section to read that Estonian perspectives differ. (Kallas even comments that "The book led to the conclusion that Savisaar shares their [ie, the Soviet] views.") However, compounding the matter is that the battalion mentioned in the Estonian article you have provided is the 36th Police Battalion, not the 658th, which is described in my source. Taking the most we can out of the source you have provided, we can interpret that according to at least from the view of one Estonian source, another battalion (the 36th) did not participate in wartime activities in Belarus (and Ukraine) and that Rebane was not personally involved in any of the village burnings. Accordingly, I am going to remove this section. I am encouraging you to provide a source to supplement my text about the battalion, but if you are going to contribute, please take care to insert material pertinent to this unit. PasswordUsername ( talk) 19:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Research has also disclosed evidence of crimes against humanity, and acts of genocide, in which the 286th, 287th and 288th Police Battalions participated at various times in their existence. These include the killing of prisoners at camps in Estonia and participation in what are described as “raids” on villages in Poland, Belarus, and Lithuania.
Himmler certainly ordered the creation of the non-German WaffenSS divisions, but I am unsure that he had the authority to release units from the Wehrmacht, so I deleted reference to him until we can find a definitive source. -- Martintg ( talk) 21:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
PasswordUsername, why are repeating like a mantra that Kallas fought on the German side? Does the fact that he was drafted in August 1944 at age of seventeen to Air Force Auxiliary Service make his writing somehow less reliable? Remember, fighting on German side is not a crime - participating in war crimes is a crime.
As for your two links about Lihula monument - one doesn't mention it at all and the other is three sentence stub which says "...honoring Estonians who fought alongside the Nazis in World War II" (not that they were Nazis - as far as I know, not a single Estonian was ever member of the Nazi party; nor was a single Estonian in SS-proper. But, again, don't quote me on that). It has been pointed out before - great many times - that Waffen SS was not the same as SS-proper and drafted Waffen SS soldiers were especially exempted by the Nuremberg Tribunal - but don't worry, it is something that Russia likes to forget, too. In fact, 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian) was at the Nuremberg tribunal - as guards.
And finally, sources. I think the best source would be a monograph by a well-known non-involved historian (i.e. not Russian or Estonian). Meanwhile, let us not forget that Russia is at the bottom of the Press Freedom Index for a reason. And Estonia at the top of said index. Russian sources have been wrong about Estonia again and again and again and again - I would not recommend using them as a main source for anything even remotely controversial.
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
658th Eastern Battalion article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hi, Sander. I noticed that you added an Estonian article into the piece (your changes marked in italics here):
According to the Russian sources, the unit was involved in anti-partisan activity in various areas of the European Soviet Union, including against the population of the Belarusian villages of Babino, Khabalovo, and Chigirinka, which were burned to the ground in an effort to suppress partisan activity against the Axis forces[2]; however, the battalion never fought in Belarus.[3]
However, the source for this seems to suggest that even Estonians disagree about whether the battalion fought in Belarus (the article is authored by Vaino Kallas and criticizes work by Edgar Savisaar – it is a critical book review). The text goes:
Savisaar further writes: "It is after all, the fact that the German army fought alongside the [Estonian] police in Russia [during the burning of the]... villages.
Here the author is wrong, either knowingly or unknowingly...[the] Estonian military recognized and highly esteemed Colonel Alfons Rebane has never served the police, burnt villages behind Russian or terrorize civilians...the Battalion was not in Belarus or Ukraine."
(Quick Google machine translation of said article: [1])
Optimal, of course, would be modifying this section to read that Estonian perspectives differ. (Kallas even comments that "The book led to the conclusion that Savisaar shares their [ie, the Soviet] views.") However, compounding the matter is that the battalion mentioned in the Estonian article you have provided is the 36th Police Battalion, not the 658th, which is described in my source. Taking the most we can out of the source you have provided, we can interpret that according to at least from the view of one Estonian source, another battalion (the 36th) did not participate in wartime activities in Belarus (and Ukraine) and that Rebane was not personally involved in any of the village burnings. Accordingly, I am going to remove this section. I am encouraging you to provide a source to supplement my text about the battalion, but if you are going to contribute, please take care to insert material pertinent to this unit. PasswordUsername ( talk) 19:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Research has also disclosed evidence of crimes against humanity, and acts of genocide, in which the 286th, 287th and 288th Police Battalions participated at various times in their existence. These include the killing of prisoners at camps in Estonia and participation in what are described as “raids” on villages in Poland, Belarus, and Lithuania.
Himmler certainly ordered the creation of the non-German WaffenSS divisions, but I am unsure that he had the authority to release units from the Wehrmacht, so I deleted reference to him until we can find a definitive source. -- Martintg ( talk) 21:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
PasswordUsername, why are repeating like a mantra that Kallas fought on the German side? Does the fact that he was drafted in August 1944 at age of seventeen to Air Force Auxiliary Service make his writing somehow less reliable? Remember, fighting on German side is not a crime - participating in war crimes is a crime.
As for your two links about Lihula monument - one doesn't mention it at all and the other is three sentence stub which says "...honoring Estonians who fought alongside the Nazis in World War II" (not that they were Nazis - as far as I know, not a single Estonian was ever member of the Nazi party; nor was a single Estonian in SS-proper. But, again, don't quote me on that). It has been pointed out before - great many times - that Waffen SS was not the same as SS-proper and drafted Waffen SS soldiers were especially exempted by the Nuremberg Tribunal - but don't worry, it is something that Russia likes to forget, too. In fact, 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian) was at the Nuremberg tribunal - as guards.
And finally, sources. I think the best source would be a monograph by a well-known non-involved historian (i.e. not Russian or Estonian). Meanwhile, let us not forget that Russia is at the bottom of the Press Freedom Index for a reason. And Estonia at the top of said index. Russian sources have been wrong about Estonia again and again and again and again - I would not recommend using them as a main source for anything even remotely controversial.