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On 16 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to 3rd Byelorussian Front. The result of the discussion was a trainwreck. |
Moved from Talk:Battle of Berlin, which is a highly improper page to talk about the issue.
Taken from the History of the page
Mikkalai you are being disingenuous. Both spellings are used in Wikipedia eg Belorusian language and Byelorussian SSR. There are also redirects from Belorussian language Belorussian SSR
As most of the sources about the battle of Berlin, like the books by A Beevor, "Berlin the Downfall 1945", one of the definitive accounts of the battle, use the term "Belorussian Front". This is not a new usage "Battle for Berlin end of the third Reich" by Earl F Ziemke published in 1968 uses "Belorussian Front". I do not have "The Last Battle" by Cornelius Ryan, please could someone look and see what is used by him. This article should use what most military historians use: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Historical names and titles. Please explain why you do not agree with this. Philip Baird Shearer 14:27, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I also note that Mikkalai changed the word Belorussian to Byelorussian on the pages Ivan Chernyakhovsky on 31 Dec 2004 and Front (Soviet Army) on 22 Nov 2004. I also note that a page exists called 3rd Byelorussian Front with a redirect page called Third Belarussian Front. So this is an issue which effects other pages as well as this one. Philip Baird Shearer 15:44, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Neither. Belarusan or Belarusian (pronounced with an "s" not "sh").
Happy New Year. -- rydel 16:45, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
rydel why did you change the page without discussing it first and trying to get a consensus? The URL you have posted in interesting. The number of pages has changed since October 2002, but the ratio of usage seems to be about the same. The URL states that "Obviously, Belarusian is the leader, and indeed it is widely accepted to be the correct form of the adjective. It is used in United Nations documents and in English versions of official government documents in Belarus...Given the destructive nature of the Russian imperial rule that Belarus had to endure, many people in Belarus would find the adjective Byelorussian [and Belorussian] even offensive.", but should that be a guide for a historic name of a Soviet Army Group? The common term used by (English publishing) military historians is Belorussian (eg see A. Beevor "Berlin the Downfall 1945" first mentioned on Page 13) [1]. On goolgle using the English Language filter:
Byelorussian SSR is the official name of the country that no longer exists and the name of the main article. Belarus is a new country. There was Ivory Coast and there is Burkina Faso. Emperor Nero didn't live in Italy. What's disingeniuos in this? I'd call it disanachronistic. Mikkalai 17:44, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This discussion is clearly in the wrong place. It has no immediate relation to the Battle of Berlin. It has relation to the naming of the country at this period of time. It doesn't matter hwow the Front is named in other books. There should be consisitency throughout wikipedia how we name the country it that period of time, when there was no Internet. Please move the discussion to Wikipedia:Naming conventions, with references from talk pages with the names related to Byelorussian SSR. As for me, you can vote to call the country White Ruthenian SSR, if you prove yourself, but once you reach the decision, please make the corresponding changes for consistency. I spent innumeral days in chasing all versions to have a single name, so that the aricles could be linked together. If you will destroy my work back into chaos by randomly changing the name here and there, I will restore it. My sole goals are consistency and linkedness of information, unlike the mentioned Kyiv/Kiev thingy.
If you are military history experts (I am not), then please write the missing articles, so that all other names could be linked to them. In this case I will have no objection. Also, one can continue naming discussions on the corresponidng pages. Happy New Year! Mikkalai 17:44, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Also, before doing name changes in red links it is always a good idea to go into the corresponding empty page and see what links from it. For example, please try 2nd Byelorussian Front, 2nd Belorussian Front, 2nd Belarussian Front, 3rd Byelorussian Front, 3rd Belorussian Front. Only then you act consistenly, rather than arbitrarily, in a single your favorite page.
I will not respond at this page further. Thank you. Mikkalai 18:10, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Mikkalai to move text between pages like this without any sort of consultation is not the accepted behaviour on Wikipidia talk pages. What is worse you have changed my entry on the Eastern Front Talk page so that it says something in my name which I did not write. I'll over look it if we can reach an agreement but if not then I will revert the move.
Do you now accept that as you are not an "expert in military history" and authors and historians like Antony Beevor are, that "Belorussian Front" is the correct name to use for the names of the Fronts? If I put together an article on the 1st and 2nd Blorussian Front you will agree to the move of the 3rd Byelorussian Front to 3rd Belorussian Front and that you will not move them from those names unless you get agreement for the moves on the Wikipedia:Requested moves page. Philip Baird Shearer 02:02, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Moved from User talk:Philip Baird Shearer
The common term used by (English publishing) military historians is "Belorussian Front" (eg see A. Beevor " Berlin the Downfall 1945" first published 2002). It is no more right or wrong than calling Germany Germany in English. Until the English publishing world starts to use some other term Wikipedia should use the most common term which is used by other publications (see above). I hope that the links on the "num Belorussian Front" pages links to the respective countries will inform people of the were the word comes from and is going. Philip Baird Shearer 23:04, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Not to get people excited again, but I'm always keen to throw in my 2¢.
It takes up as much relative space as it does, because this article is a stub. But if you look at 1st Belorussian Front you will see that although the article is a stub it takes up far less space relative to the rest of the article. It is just that the conversation about the name was moved to this talk page (one of three possible choices) from the Battle of Berlin talk page, and the rest has discussion has taken place here.
The great thing about "common usage" is that when the majority of military history changes to a different spelling then this page can change, but at the moment the common English name for the front is "Belorussian Front" both in Google counts and in published military histories including those published in the 21st century Philip Baird Shearer 22:27, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just can't understand why do people stick with simply incorrect name "Belorussian". It is, at first, incorrect (in terms of English), and, at second, if you'll check Google, it is clearly outnumbered by "Belarusian" spelling (with or without "front"). Why to revert correct fixes? -- Monkbel 11:02, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-- Philip Baird Shearer 13:10, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
From my talk page:
The term "Belorussian Front" is used in many English language military history books. Of which the most recent one I have is Berlin - The Downfall 1945, by Antony Beevor first published in 2002. Philip Baird Shearer 11:48, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Belorussian Front" is a specific term, the name of a particular thing, unlike, say "Belorusian food" or "Belarusian girls", therefore cannot be changed at will. mikka (t) 17:54, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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On 16 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to 3rd Byelorussian Front. The result of the discussion was a trainwreck. |
Moved from Talk:Battle of Berlin, which is a highly improper page to talk about the issue.
Taken from the History of the page
Mikkalai you are being disingenuous. Both spellings are used in Wikipedia eg Belorusian language and Byelorussian SSR. There are also redirects from Belorussian language Belorussian SSR
As most of the sources about the battle of Berlin, like the books by A Beevor, "Berlin the Downfall 1945", one of the definitive accounts of the battle, use the term "Belorussian Front". This is not a new usage "Battle for Berlin end of the third Reich" by Earl F Ziemke published in 1968 uses "Belorussian Front". I do not have "The Last Battle" by Cornelius Ryan, please could someone look and see what is used by him. This article should use what most military historians use: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Historical names and titles. Please explain why you do not agree with this. Philip Baird Shearer 14:27, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I also note that Mikkalai changed the word Belorussian to Byelorussian on the pages Ivan Chernyakhovsky on 31 Dec 2004 and Front (Soviet Army) on 22 Nov 2004. I also note that a page exists called 3rd Byelorussian Front with a redirect page called Third Belarussian Front. So this is an issue which effects other pages as well as this one. Philip Baird Shearer 15:44, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Neither. Belarusan or Belarusian (pronounced with an "s" not "sh").
Happy New Year. -- rydel 16:45, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
rydel why did you change the page without discussing it first and trying to get a consensus? The URL you have posted in interesting. The number of pages has changed since October 2002, but the ratio of usage seems to be about the same. The URL states that "Obviously, Belarusian is the leader, and indeed it is widely accepted to be the correct form of the adjective. It is used in United Nations documents and in English versions of official government documents in Belarus...Given the destructive nature of the Russian imperial rule that Belarus had to endure, many people in Belarus would find the adjective Byelorussian [and Belorussian] even offensive.", but should that be a guide for a historic name of a Soviet Army Group? The common term used by (English publishing) military historians is Belorussian (eg see A. Beevor "Berlin the Downfall 1945" first mentioned on Page 13) [1]. On goolgle using the English Language filter:
Byelorussian SSR is the official name of the country that no longer exists and the name of the main article. Belarus is a new country. There was Ivory Coast and there is Burkina Faso. Emperor Nero didn't live in Italy. What's disingeniuos in this? I'd call it disanachronistic. Mikkalai 17:44, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This discussion is clearly in the wrong place. It has no immediate relation to the Battle of Berlin. It has relation to the naming of the country at this period of time. It doesn't matter hwow the Front is named in other books. There should be consisitency throughout wikipedia how we name the country it that period of time, when there was no Internet. Please move the discussion to Wikipedia:Naming conventions, with references from talk pages with the names related to Byelorussian SSR. As for me, you can vote to call the country White Ruthenian SSR, if you prove yourself, but once you reach the decision, please make the corresponding changes for consistency. I spent innumeral days in chasing all versions to have a single name, so that the aricles could be linked together. If you will destroy my work back into chaos by randomly changing the name here and there, I will restore it. My sole goals are consistency and linkedness of information, unlike the mentioned Kyiv/Kiev thingy.
If you are military history experts (I am not), then please write the missing articles, so that all other names could be linked to them. In this case I will have no objection. Also, one can continue naming discussions on the corresponidng pages. Happy New Year! Mikkalai 17:44, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Also, before doing name changes in red links it is always a good idea to go into the corresponding empty page and see what links from it. For example, please try 2nd Byelorussian Front, 2nd Belorussian Front, 2nd Belarussian Front, 3rd Byelorussian Front, 3rd Belorussian Front. Only then you act consistenly, rather than arbitrarily, in a single your favorite page.
I will not respond at this page further. Thank you. Mikkalai 18:10, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Mikkalai to move text between pages like this without any sort of consultation is not the accepted behaviour on Wikipidia talk pages. What is worse you have changed my entry on the Eastern Front Talk page so that it says something in my name which I did not write. I'll over look it if we can reach an agreement but if not then I will revert the move.
Do you now accept that as you are not an "expert in military history" and authors and historians like Antony Beevor are, that "Belorussian Front" is the correct name to use for the names of the Fronts? If I put together an article on the 1st and 2nd Blorussian Front you will agree to the move of the 3rd Byelorussian Front to 3rd Belorussian Front and that you will not move them from those names unless you get agreement for the moves on the Wikipedia:Requested moves page. Philip Baird Shearer 02:02, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Moved from User talk:Philip Baird Shearer
The common term used by (English publishing) military historians is "Belorussian Front" (eg see A. Beevor " Berlin the Downfall 1945" first published 2002). It is no more right or wrong than calling Germany Germany in English. Until the English publishing world starts to use some other term Wikipedia should use the most common term which is used by other publications (see above). I hope that the links on the "num Belorussian Front" pages links to the respective countries will inform people of the were the word comes from and is going. Philip Baird Shearer 23:04, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Not to get people excited again, but I'm always keen to throw in my 2¢.
It takes up as much relative space as it does, because this article is a stub. But if you look at 1st Belorussian Front you will see that although the article is a stub it takes up far less space relative to the rest of the article. It is just that the conversation about the name was moved to this talk page (one of three possible choices) from the Battle of Berlin talk page, and the rest has discussion has taken place here.
The great thing about "common usage" is that when the majority of military history changes to a different spelling then this page can change, but at the moment the common English name for the front is "Belorussian Front" both in Google counts and in published military histories including those published in the 21st century Philip Baird Shearer 22:27, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just can't understand why do people stick with simply incorrect name "Belorussian". It is, at first, incorrect (in terms of English), and, at second, if you'll check Google, it is clearly outnumbered by "Belarusian" spelling (with or without "front"). Why to revert correct fixes? -- Monkbel 11:02, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-- Philip Baird Shearer 13:10, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
From my talk page:
The term "Belorussian Front" is used in many English language military history books. Of which the most recent one I have is Berlin - The Downfall 1945, by Antony Beevor first published in 2002. Philip Baird Shearer 11:48, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"Belorussian Front" is a specific term, the name of a particular thing, unlike, say "Belorusian food" or "Belarusian girls", therefore cannot be changed at will. mikka (t) 17:54, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:38, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Socialist Soviet Republic of Lithuania and Belorussia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 02:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Socialist Soviet Republic of Lithuania and Belorussia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 15:32, 16 June 2023 (UTC)