This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Having screwed around with the content, looking at comparative measures…I think it makes most sense to remerge this. That seems disruptive, and I agree. My apologies. I needed to see how it would work out. However, there just isn't enough content to warrant an article. Anyone opposed to a re-merger? RGloucester — ☎ 00:40, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
El País also reported that "supporters of Kiev started the fire". So we have two reliable sources stating that the Trade Union House was set on fire by pro-Kiev demonstrators. If I add this information to the article, citing the sources, will other editors allow it to stand, or will they suppress it by undoing my edit? – Herzen ( talk) 03:08, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
I saw video from that rally and they were smashing windows and attacking women who protested against violence. It certainly wasn't "peaceful". -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 11:34, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Reuters reports "at least 42 killed" in Odessa on May 2. [1] See also Kyiv Post, "dozens killed." [2] Sca ( talk) 13:35, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Anyone know a good source of free images of the clashes? Or perhaps there are some people from Odessa who might've taken pictures? Would be nice if they could be uploaded to the commons. RGloucester — ☎ 17:23, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
What the hell? RGloucester — ☎ 00:50, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Again, there was no weapon in the Trade Union Building. Here is the proof from the police:
All shooting taked place at the clashes near Grecheskaya Square. There was no gunfire near Kulikovo Field.
Also, please add, that some people, jumping from the fire, were beaten to death by protesters. Here is the link. http://otkat.od.ua/v-bolnice-skonchalsya-odesskij-deputat-postradavshij-na-kulikovom-pole/
Sorry, i cant change this myself, because my English is poor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Барон Суббота ( talk • contribs) 10:16, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Also, the "peaceful rally" was consisted from football ultras from Odessa and Kharkov. The same scenario was used before in Kharkov and Donetsk, both times ended with clashes. In Kharkov they beat local pro-russian activists, in Donetsk they were beated themselves. Барон Суббота ( talk) 10:39, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 11:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
"Whilst defending the building, militants on the roof tossed rocks and petrol bombs at the protesters below, and also opened fire upon them" - it is a lie. See the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je1neAJT4Hs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.66.228.194 ( talk) 08:43, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Pretty sad that the Ukrainian nationalists are destroying Wikipedia, they are shooting at the protestors who are inside the building. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27265854 -- 2.242.218.182 ( talk) 09:18, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Sources seem to use the word militants, which is applicable considering those involved. Here is a good blog with photos [3] As we know, this wasn't a scuffle between rival protest rallies, but an attack by one group on a protest rally. The group was armed with bats and shields whereas the pro-Ukrainian rally was attended by a wide spectrum of locals from women to kids to self defense groups. Also, the Russian side was armed with machine guns which would clearly identify them as 'militants' and not 'demonstrators'. -- Львівське ( говорити) 20:01, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
It's pretty graphic so I won't post it here.If somebody is interested I can send link by email. I hope some media will catch on this.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 16:00, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia and presents the different sources and it can not only cite pro-guvernamental versions, but the opposition versions too. RGloucester suppressed the pro-Russian version of events. First, the name of movement pro-referendum: People’s Alternative movement. Hhmb ( talk) 05:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Furthermore, the following texts:
Despite clear evidence that the ultra-nationalists set Odessa’s House of Trade Unions ablaze on Friday killing dozens, [5] [6] the mainstream western media is being ambiguous about the causes of the tragedy and who is behind deadly Odessa blaze. [7] This is concealment. Wikipedia can not depend only of western media but two users are deleting all traces of another version. Hhmb ( talk) 17:12, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
The article states that: "After being fired upon, the pro-Ukraine crowd began to throw petrol bombs into the building".
I think the phrasing is a little bit problematic for such a sensitive issue since it might lead some readers to infer that the attack occurred after the people outside the building have been provoked by the use of firearms against them (which might or might not have been the case). What the two cited articles (BBC and WP, I sadly cannot understand the one in Cyrillic) mention however is not that.
WP: "Friday evening, a pro-Ukrainian mob attacked a camp where the pro-Russian supporters had pitched tents, forcing them to flee to a nearby government building, a witness said. The mob then threw gasoline bombs into the building. Police said 31 people were killed when they choked on smoke or jumped out of windows. Asked who had thrown the molotov cocktails, pro-Ukrainian activist Diana Berg said, “Our people — but now they are helping them to escape the building.” "
BBC: "The exact sequence of events is still unclear, but reports suggest the separatists had barricaded themselves inside the building and both sides were throwing petrol bombs."
None of these sources mentions shooting/provocation and in fact the WP does not even mention Molotov cocktails thrown from the building. As such the sentence as it stands should either (a) be modified to reflect what the sources say (b) be supported by other neutral sources that support what it says.
Another option would be to include more sentences each summarising what the different sources say in order to convey that the situation is still not very clear Kkostagiannis ( talk) 16:37, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
@ Kkostagiannis: How will the following do, in your eyes? RGloucester — ☎ 17:31, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Reports about the precise sequence of events that followed vary between different sources. Some claim that whist defending the building, militants on the roof tossed rocks and petrol bombs at the protesters below. [1] [2] A report by the Ukrainian Independent Information Agency (UNIAN) said that the pro-united Ukraine crowd began to throw petrol bombs into the building after having been fired upon by the pro-Russian group. [3] Another report by BBC News claimed that the situation was unclear, and that both sides had been throwing petrol bombs. [4] However, an article in the Washington Post said that a "pro-Ukrainian mob" threw petrol bombs into the building, causing the building to set alight. [5] An official investigation conducted by the Ukrainian Interior Ministry stated that no firearms were found inside the building, but that the pro-Russian group accidentally set the building on fire whilst throwing petrol bombs. [6] [7]
Pro-Russia fighters mounted a last-ditch defence of the burning building, throwing masonry and petrol bombs from the roof on to the crowd below.
WPbattles
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27275383
A BBC report about what happened in Odessa.-- 2.243.21.171 ( talk) 18:27, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a newspaper, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. We should not report on ongoing event like a news ticker, but only report about it, when some time has passed, in order to assure a more neutral view and a wider range of sources, that are not available one or two days after something somewhere has happened. What would we have written about the Reichstag fire in 1933, if the Wikipedia-article would have created only one day after the event, or the Gulf of Tonkin incident, or about Korean Air Lines Flight 007? Think about this! -- El bes ( talk) 21:43, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
BBC quoted an eyewitness saying that someone inside tried throwing a molotov through a window on the 3rd floor, starting the fire from the inside; this of course lines up with the official police reports. KP posted an article on what happened and this youtube video, at the 2:00 mark I think this appears to be what happened inside. [5] Of course this is only one of the fires, there's another in the foyer, but maybe that's why the smoke was so bad (multiple fire sources)-- Львівське ( говорити) 20:24, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
It might be actually connected to the dozens of dozens molotov's being thrown by pro-Kiev mob into the building. Of which we have numerous videos. Also the eyewitness and BBC are two different things. The eyewitness would need to be verified. For all we know he could be one of the supporters of Kiev authorities.— MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:36, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Well seems RT figured it all out, the mainstream media (aka. the 'MSM') has been covering it all up! [6] -- Львівське ( говорити) 07:25, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
To pose 'pro-Ukrainian' against 'pro-Russian' is in itself POV. Amongst the so-called pro-Russians are people that want a federal Ukraine. Labelling them as anti-Ukrainian would be like defining supporters of state rights in the US as 'anti-American'. -- Soman ( talk) 19:56, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
you are biased lwiwskie because you are yourself supporter of unity. "anti goverment" would be fair because that way of calling them emphasises that not all of them are for joining russia. Actually i think that most of them are pro-soviet not pro russia, because for many of them soviet times were better than ukrainian. Ukrainian state hasn't worked well. Kazimierz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.23.180.243 ( talk) 14:39, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Just speaking in general, whether it's this article or any other article on Wikipedia, we should prune overgrown "External Links" farms. They are usually nothing but attempts at promo, search optimization or subtle POV pushing. Often times users who can't get in their sketchy non-reliable sources into text will try to circumvent the WP:RS requirement by sticking these into the EL section.
And indeed that's what's going on here, with most of the links either to somebody's livejournal blog or Russian TV propaganda. Additionally, even putting that aside, I don't think it makes sense to include non-English links in ELs. Of course we can use non-English sources in the article, but that's because the purpose of sourcing is different than purpose of providing external links.
Basically, for something to be included in EL, its presence must be justified and sound, and we should not include sketchy stuff. So I'm removing these again. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 20:48, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
At the current time the article is highly biased. Info on attacks on people who were trying to flee was removed-although it is sourced by BBC, while only misleading information that "Ukrainian side saved people" is remaining. BBC reported eyewitnesses reporting attacks on fleeing people, and there numerous youtube videos showing(yes I know youtube is not a source we can use). -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 22:52, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Leaving information that fleeing people were supposedly "saved" when in fact you have numerous evidence of them being beaten presents serious POV issues. And there is nothing "undue" about mentioning that.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:34, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Greek TV just broadcasted a video(i think originally from RT) where neonazis are 'finishing' all those who were jumping from the burning building From the footage it is clear that some right sector members(neonazis) were shooting the ones who jumped and did not die immediately or smashing people's heads with buts It is clear that even western media like UK 'based 'Telegraph' refers to the events as 'MASSACRE' Additional Greek-speaking media about the Massacre of Odessa http://tvxs.gr/news/kosmos/mia-sygklonistiki-martyria-gia-ti-neonazistiki-sfagi-tis-odissoy There are protests against the far-right violent groups which control Ukraine right now http://www.kar.org.gr/2014/05/05/%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%B3%CE%B3%CF%8D%CE%B7-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C-%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%8C/ in Athens This is the link with several vids showing the murder of people who were jumping from the building http://www.antenna.gr/news/World/article/346110/ntokoymento-bias-apo-to-makeleio-tis-odissoy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.231.211 ( talk) 14:48, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
You simply have no clue Antenna is a major bews broadcasting agency and TV, perhaps the biggest in Greece right now This just shows your bias towards any source claiming something that you personally dislike You have no clue how to evaluate Greek media but still you are obsessed... And the fact that some of the vids come from RT does not mean anything unless falsification of the originality is proven... Once again you prove that you are one sided and totally biased — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.4.90.119 ( talk) 16:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Btw this the wiki article for Antena http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANT1_Group I am waiting now the guy named Lvivske to edit this article too... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.4.90.119 ( talk) 16:53, 5 May 2014 (UTC) Since Antena seems to be reliable source I suggest translating this information and using it to expand the article.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:21, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
@Lvivske you do not trust RT when they do have journalists and reporters in Odessa...and you do not trust Greek9actually a EU member-country)either so stop spreading your extreme pronazi bias
Odessa has a Greek consulate, if you were at least familiar with the history of the city or the city itself you should know some things...i do guess you do not even live in Ukraine or even close...but still you pretend to know 'everything' Gradually many media call the incidents of Odessa as 'Odessa Massacre' http://eu.greekreporter.com/2014/05/04/greek-diplomatic-missions-in-ukraine-stay-alert/ for the reasons that right sector members deliberately set fire to the building, start shooting and beating anyone who tried to escape in order to MURDER. Wikipedia should fix at some point the correct name of the incidents There aplenty of visual material and evidence(pics,vids...) but still you pretend you did not read anything...you did not see anything... At the end of the day it is NOT lvivskepedia
Why do you delete this?:
Chief editor of Dumskaya.net (regional Odessa media), who was injured during clashes, says that police did not interview him and other injured eyewitnesses http://dumskaya.net/news/glavred-dumskoj-miliciya-ne-rassleduet-sobytiya--035422/. Cathry ( talk) 00:51, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Deletes information about escaped from fire people which was shooting by pro-unity activists. it comes from reliable source "As survivors said unity activists shot them and threw Molotov cocktails when they tried to escape through the stairs" http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/05/140504_ukraine_odessa_after_the_fire.shtml Cathry ( talk) 22:54, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
This isn't going anywhere constructive and the OP has been blocked indefinitely as a suspected sock. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 05:35, 6 May 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
As these two apparently OWN this article and Львівське especially reverts this article 5 times per day report them to WP:AE as there are WP:DIGWUREN rulings that allow either to ban or to restrict these revert happy individuals in Eastern European articles. Report them to admin Sandstein ( talk · contribs). Львівське already was blocked for 1RR violation by EdJohnston, so report directly to him or Future Perfect at Sunrise, citing his reverts and deletions of sourced information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Landcontrib ( talk • contribs) 03:37, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
|
This article obviously brings new facts but this was also reverted
facts: 1) 3, 8 and 14 Euromaidan self-defense groups also were there
2)Pro-unity activists chanted patriotic slogans such as «Death to the enemies», «Ukraine above all»
3)Pro-Russian mob at first built barricade, their opponents saw that and ran there with stones and clubs
4)Both pro-Russian and pro-unity side was armed and shooting at opponents
5)Some were hardly beaten after they jumped from the fire
"You are skewing the meaning of the sources, and introducing redundant poorly written information that is already in the body. " If RGloucester wants to make article better, he can simple write "nicely". There is no "skewing" at all http://vesti.ua/odessa/50433-odesskaja-hatyn-kak-jeto-bylo-na-samom-dele Cathry ( talk) 01:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
"An official investigation conducted by the Ukrainian Interior Ministry stated that while no firearms were found inside the building, those on the roof were shooting at the crowd below, and accidentally set the building on fire whilst throwing petrol bombs from above." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.251.253 ( talk) 02:56, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
This article has many inaccuracies. Based on Primary Evidence any reasonable person will find:
1. The Pro-Europeans chased the Pro-Russian demonstrators into the trade union building.
2. The Pro-Europeans prevented the Pro-Russian demonstrators from escaping.
3. The Pro-Europeans deliberately set the trade union build on fire using Molotovs.
4. The Pro-Europeans shot anyone who attempted to escape the flames.
I'm surprised this article doesn't even mention that the Pro-European hooligans chanted "Glory to Ukraine" while people jumped to their deaths trying to escape the flames. Seems a little biased in it's current form.
173.79.251.253 ( talk) 02:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
It was already reported and already put in the article once, BBC stated that Russia Today has shown a video of a person shooting. Of course this was removed from the article. Here's is a GRAPHIC video of people who tried to escape being beaten(caution this is not safe video and graphic) [7] -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 10:30, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Members of right sector and hooligans deliberately set the buinding on fire and mirdered in cold blood whoever tried to escape by jumping A collections of pics and some of the vids follows in this link http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1570374.html?thread=142067782#t142067782 To user named Львівське Stop spreading your POV and stop insulting murdered people's souls. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.231.211 ( talk) 14:42, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
An additional western media providing sources that proves the intentional murder of people in Odessa http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/06/ukraine-claims-30-pro-russia-separatists-killed The incident should not listed as 'Odessa clashes' but 'Odessa massacre' Gradually there is a convergence between Russian and Western media about that Perhaps only Lvivske still believes the opposite...i do hope wikipedians will change the entire article-name,content etc It would be useful to make a list of the murdered civilians and politicians by the right sector's neonazis-just there was a separate list of maydan protestors murdered by snipers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.241.32 ( talk) 11:43, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF-pU3o28s8
11 sec. "And now we have to burn this building together with them" (original in Russian) Cathry ( talk) 15:09, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
while it's locked just want to post notes for possible inclusion here:
former military officer Alexander Sadovnichy - "studies in Tiraspol, Transnistria" / ""Rudakova-Grizlo said that many more classmates would have come from Tiraspol for the funeral but that men with Russian passports were unable to cross the border into Ukraine, so she had come alone." -- Львівське ( говорити) 18:41, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
In the infobox it previously said this was between pro and anti 'euromaidan' groups, despite euromaidan being over and odessa never being a stronghold for maidan. Now RG has made it "Confrontation between supporters and opponents of the 2014 Ukrainian revolution" - is this not original research? This implies that one side was pro-government and the other is pro-yanukovych. All we know from the sources and reporting is that one side was rallying for national unity (apolitical) and the other side attacked and was pro-russian / st. george ribbon wearing -- Львівське ( говорити) 20:47, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
I do see that RFE calls them
'pro-Russian separatists and supporters of the government in Kyiv' --
Львівське (
говорити)
23:21, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Would like to add: "Photos taken show some corpses intoxicated by the fumes, with no burn marks. However, on most of the bodies only the face and hands are burned. Other parts of the body and clothing are often intact, and there is no sign of fire in the room. Some bodies had been dragged along the ground."
Source:
http://counterinformation.wordpress.com/2014/05/07/crime-in-odessa/
BloodofIndependence (
talk)
20:58, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
At least three journalists were shot over the weekend and others assaulted while covering deadly clashes
Pyotr Rakul, reporter for online news portal Info-Center, was shot in his left leg on Sunday. According to a report by Info-Center, Rakul was shot by a local police officer despite wearing a yellow vest marked "Press." It is unclear if Rakul's attacker was identified and apprehended.
On Sunday, pro-Russia activists roughed up Nataliya Tarasovskaya, journalist for the independent broadcaster Channel 5, and her cameramen as the TV crew was about to start reporting on air, news reports said.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Having screwed around with the content, looking at comparative measures…I think it makes most sense to remerge this. That seems disruptive, and I agree. My apologies. I needed to see how it would work out. However, there just isn't enough content to warrant an article. Anyone opposed to a re-merger? RGloucester — ☎ 00:40, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
El País also reported that "supporters of Kiev started the fire". So we have two reliable sources stating that the Trade Union House was set on fire by pro-Kiev demonstrators. If I add this information to the article, citing the sources, will other editors allow it to stand, or will they suppress it by undoing my edit? – Herzen ( talk) 03:08, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
I saw video from that rally and they were smashing windows and attacking women who protested against violence. It certainly wasn't "peaceful". -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 11:34, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Reuters reports "at least 42 killed" in Odessa on May 2. [1] See also Kyiv Post, "dozens killed." [2] Sca ( talk) 13:35, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Anyone know a good source of free images of the clashes? Or perhaps there are some people from Odessa who might've taken pictures? Would be nice if they could be uploaded to the commons. RGloucester — ☎ 17:23, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
What the hell? RGloucester — ☎ 00:50, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Again, there was no weapon in the Trade Union Building. Here is the proof from the police:
All shooting taked place at the clashes near Grecheskaya Square. There was no gunfire near Kulikovo Field.
Also, please add, that some people, jumping from the fire, were beaten to death by protesters. Here is the link. http://otkat.od.ua/v-bolnice-skonchalsya-odesskij-deputat-postradavshij-na-kulikovom-pole/
Sorry, i cant change this myself, because my English is poor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Барон Суббота ( talk • contribs) 10:16, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Also, the "peaceful rally" was consisted from football ultras from Odessa and Kharkov. The same scenario was used before in Kharkov and Donetsk, both times ended with clashes. In Kharkov they beat local pro-russian activists, in Donetsk they were beated themselves. Барон Суббота ( talk) 10:39, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 11:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
"Whilst defending the building, militants on the roof tossed rocks and petrol bombs at the protesters below, and also opened fire upon them" - it is a lie. See the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je1neAJT4Hs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.66.228.194 ( talk) 08:43, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Pretty sad that the Ukrainian nationalists are destroying Wikipedia, they are shooting at the protestors who are inside the building. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27265854 -- 2.242.218.182 ( talk) 09:18, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Sources seem to use the word militants, which is applicable considering those involved. Here is a good blog with photos [3] As we know, this wasn't a scuffle between rival protest rallies, but an attack by one group on a protest rally. The group was armed with bats and shields whereas the pro-Ukrainian rally was attended by a wide spectrum of locals from women to kids to self defense groups. Also, the Russian side was armed with machine guns which would clearly identify them as 'militants' and not 'demonstrators'. -- Львівське ( говорити) 20:01, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
It's pretty graphic so I won't post it here.If somebody is interested I can send link by email. I hope some media will catch on this.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 16:00, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia and presents the different sources and it can not only cite pro-guvernamental versions, but the opposition versions too. RGloucester suppressed the pro-Russian version of events. First, the name of movement pro-referendum: People’s Alternative movement. Hhmb ( talk) 05:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Furthermore, the following texts:
Despite clear evidence that the ultra-nationalists set Odessa’s House of Trade Unions ablaze on Friday killing dozens, [5] [6] the mainstream western media is being ambiguous about the causes of the tragedy and who is behind deadly Odessa blaze. [7] This is concealment. Wikipedia can not depend only of western media but two users are deleting all traces of another version. Hhmb ( talk) 17:12, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
The article states that: "After being fired upon, the pro-Ukraine crowd began to throw petrol bombs into the building".
I think the phrasing is a little bit problematic for such a sensitive issue since it might lead some readers to infer that the attack occurred after the people outside the building have been provoked by the use of firearms against them (which might or might not have been the case). What the two cited articles (BBC and WP, I sadly cannot understand the one in Cyrillic) mention however is not that.
WP: "Friday evening, a pro-Ukrainian mob attacked a camp where the pro-Russian supporters had pitched tents, forcing them to flee to a nearby government building, a witness said. The mob then threw gasoline bombs into the building. Police said 31 people were killed when they choked on smoke or jumped out of windows. Asked who had thrown the molotov cocktails, pro-Ukrainian activist Diana Berg said, “Our people — but now they are helping them to escape the building.” "
BBC: "The exact sequence of events is still unclear, but reports suggest the separatists had barricaded themselves inside the building and both sides were throwing petrol bombs."
None of these sources mentions shooting/provocation and in fact the WP does not even mention Molotov cocktails thrown from the building. As such the sentence as it stands should either (a) be modified to reflect what the sources say (b) be supported by other neutral sources that support what it says.
Another option would be to include more sentences each summarising what the different sources say in order to convey that the situation is still not very clear Kkostagiannis ( talk) 16:37, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
@ Kkostagiannis: How will the following do, in your eyes? RGloucester — ☎ 17:31, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Reports about the precise sequence of events that followed vary between different sources. Some claim that whist defending the building, militants on the roof tossed rocks and petrol bombs at the protesters below. [1] [2] A report by the Ukrainian Independent Information Agency (UNIAN) said that the pro-united Ukraine crowd began to throw petrol bombs into the building after having been fired upon by the pro-Russian group. [3] Another report by BBC News claimed that the situation was unclear, and that both sides had been throwing petrol bombs. [4] However, an article in the Washington Post said that a "pro-Ukrainian mob" threw petrol bombs into the building, causing the building to set alight. [5] An official investigation conducted by the Ukrainian Interior Ministry stated that no firearms were found inside the building, but that the pro-Russian group accidentally set the building on fire whilst throwing petrol bombs. [6] [7]
Pro-Russia fighters mounted a last-ditch defence of the burning building, throwing masonry and petrol bombs from the roof on to the crowd below.
WPbattles
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27275383
A BBC report about what happened in Odessa.-- 2.243.21.171 ( talk) 18:27, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a newspaper, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. We should not report on ongoing event like a news ticker, but only report about it, when some time has passed, in order to assure a more neutral view and a wider range of sources, that are not available one or two days after something somewhere has happened. What would we have written about the Reichstag fire in 1933, if the Wikipedia-article would have created only one day after the event, or the Gulf of Tonkin incident, or about Korean Air Lines Flight 007? Think about this! -- El bes ( talk) 21:43, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
BBC quoted an eyewitness saying that someone inside tried throwing a molotov through a window on the 3rd floor, starting the fire from the inside; this of course lines up with the official police reports. KP posted an article on what happened and this youtube video, at the 2:00 mark I think this appears to be what happened inside. [5] Of course this is only one of the fires, there's another in the foyer, but maybe that's why the smoke was so bad (multiple fire sources)-- Львівське ( говорити) 20:24, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
It might be actually connected to the dozens of dozens molotov's being thrown by pro-Kiev mob into the building. Of which we have numerous videos. Also the eyewitness and BBC are two different things. The eyewitness would need to be verified. For all we know he could be one of the supporters of Kiev authorities.— MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:36, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Well seems RT figured it all out, the mainstream media (aka. the 'MSM') has been covering it all up! [6] -- Львівське ( говорити) 07:25, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
To pose 'pro-Ukrainian' against 'pro-Russian' is in itself POV. Amongst the so-called pro-Russians are people that want a federal Ukraine. Labelling them as anti-Ukrainian would be like defining supporters of state rights in the US as 'anti-American'. -- Soman ( talk) 19:56, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
you are biased lwiwskie because you are yourself supporter of unity. "anti goverment" would be fair because that way of calling them emphasises that not all of them are for joining russia. Actually i think that most of them are pro-soviet not pro russia, because for many of them soviet times were better than ukrainian. Ukrainian state hasn't worked well. Kazimierz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.23.180.243 ( talk) 14:39, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Just speaking in general, whether it's this article or any other article on Wikipedia, we should prune overgrown "External Links" farms. They are usually nothing but attempts at promo, search optimization or subtle POV pushing. Often times users who can't get in their sketchy non-reliable sources into text will try to circumvent the WP:RS requirement by sticking these into the EL section.
And indeed that's what's going on here, with most of the links either to somebody's livejournal blog or Russian TV propaganda. Additionally, even putting that aside, I don't think it makes sense to include non-English links in ELs. Of course we can use non-English sources in the article, but that's because the purpose of sourcing is different than purpose of providing external links.
Basically, for something to be included in EL, its presence must be justified and sound, and we should not include sketchy stuff. So I'm removing these again. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 20:48, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
At the current time the article is highly biased. Info on attacks on people who were trying to flee was removed-although it is sourced by BBC, while only misleading information that "Ukrainian side saved people" is remaining. BBC reported eyewitnesses reporting attacks on fleeing people, and there numerous youtube videos showing(yes I know youtube is not a source we can use). -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 22:52, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Leaving information that fleeing people were supposedly "saved" when in fact you have numerous evidence of them being beaten presents serious POV issues. And there is nothing "undue" about mentioning that.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 23:34, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Greek TV just broadcasted a video(i think originally from RT) where neonazis are 'finishing' all those who were jumping from the burning building From the footage it is clear that some right sector members(neonazis) were shooting the ones who jumped and did not die immediately or smashing people's heads with buts It is clear that even western media like UK 'based 'Telegraph' refers to the events as 'MASSACRE' Additional Greek-speaking media about the Massacre of Odessa http://tvxs.gr/news/kosmos/mia-sygklonistiki-martyria-gia-ti-neonazistiki-sfagi-tis-odissoy There are protests against the far-right violent groups which control Ukraine right now http://www.kar.org.gr/2014/05/05/%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%B3%CE%B3%CF%8D%CE%B7-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C-%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%8C/ in Athens This is the link with several vids showing the murder of people who were jumping from the building http://www.antenna.gr/news/World/article/346110/ntokoymento-bias-apo-to-makeleio-tis-odissoy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.231.211 ( talk) 14:48, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
You simply have no clue Antenna is a major bews broadcasting agency and TV, perhaps the biggest in Greece right now This just shows your bias towards any source claiming something that you personally dislike You have no clue how to evaluate Greek media but still you are obsessed... And the fact that some of the vids come from RT does not mean anything unless falsification of the originality is proven... Once again you prove that you are one sided and totally biased — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.4.90.119 ( talk) 16:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Btw this the wiki article for Antena http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANT1_Group I am waiting now the guy named Lvivske to edit this article too... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.4.90.119 ( talk) 16:53, 5 May 2014 (UTC) Since Antena seems to be reliable source I suggest translating this information and using it to expand the article.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:21, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
@Lvivske you do not trust RT when they do have journalists and reporters in Odessa...and you do not trust Greek9actually a EU member-country)either so stop spreading your extreme pronazi bias
Odessa has a Greek consulate, if you were at least familiar with the history of the city or the city itself you should know some things...i do guess you do not even live in Ukraine or even close...but still you pretend to know 'everything' Gradually many media call the incidents of Odessa as 'Odessa Massacre' http://eu.greekreporter.com/2014/05/04/greek-diplomatic-missions-in-ukraine-stay-alert/ for the reasons that right sector members deliberately set fire to the building, start shooting and beating anyone who tried to escape in order to MURDER. Wikipedia should fix at some point the correct name of the incidents There aplenty of visual material and evidence(pics,vids...) but still you pretend you did not read anything...you did not see anything... At the end of the day it is NOT lvivskepedia
Why do you delete this?:
Chief editor of Dumskaya.net (regional Odessa media), who was injured during clashes, says that police did not interview him and other injured eyewitnesses http://dumskaya.net/news/glavred-dumskoj-miliciya-ne-rassleduet-sobytiya--035422/. Cathry ( talk) 00:51, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Deletes information about escaped from fire people which was shooting by pro-unity activists. it comes from reliable source "As survivors said unity activists shot them and threw Molotov cocktails when they tried to escape through the stairs" http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/05/140504_ukraine_odessa_after_the_fire.shtml Cathry ( talk) 22:54, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
This isn't going anywhere constructive and the OP has been blocked indefinitely as a suspected sock. Callanecc ( talk • contribs • logs) 05:35, 6 May 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
As these two apparently OWN this article and Львівське especially reverts this article 5 times per day report them to WP:AE as there are WP:DIGWUREN rulings that allow either to ban or to restrict these revert happy individuals in Eastern European articles. Report them to admin Sandstein ( talk · contribs). Львівське already was blocked for 1RR violation by EdJohnston, so report directly to him or Future Perfect at Sunrise, citing his reverts and deletions of sourced information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Landcontrib ( talk • contribs) 03:37, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
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This article obviously brings new facts but this was also reverted
facts: 1) 3, 8 and 14 Euromaidan self-defense groups also were there
2)Pro-unity activists chanted patriotic slogans such as «Death to the enemies», «Ukraine above all»
3)Pro-Russian mob at first built barricade, their opponents saw that and ran there with stones and clubs
4)Both pro-Russian and pro-unity side was armed and shooting at opponents
5)Some were hardly beaten after they jumped from the fire
"You are skewing the meaning of the sources, and introducing redundant poorly written information that is already in the body. " If RGloucester wants to make article better, he can simple write "nicely". There is no "skewing" at all http://vesti.ua/odessa/50433-odesskaja-hatyn-kak-jeto-bylo-na-samom-dele Cathry ( talk) 01:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
"An official investigation conducted by the Ukrainian Interior Ministry stated that while no firearms were found inside the building, those on the roof were shooting at the crowd below, and accidentally set the building on fire whilst throwing petrol bombs from above." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.251.253 ( talk) 02:56, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
This article has many inaccuracies. Based on Primary Evidence any reasonable person will find:
1. The Pro-Europeans chased the Pro-Russian demonstrators into the trade union building.
2. The Pro-Europeans prevented the Pro-Russian demonstrators from escaping.
3. The Pro-Europeans deliberately set the trade union build on fire using Molotovs.
4. The Pro-Europeans shot anyone who attempted to escape the flames.
I'm surprised this article doesn't even mention that the Pro-European hooligans chanted "Glory to Ukraine" while people jumped to their deaths trying to escape the flames. Seems a little biased in it's current form.
173.79.251.253 ( talk) 02:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
It was already reported and already put in the article once, BBC stated that Russia Today has shown a video of a person shooting. Of course this was removed from the article. Here's is a GRAPHIC video of people who tried to escape being beaten(caution this is not safe video and graphic) [7] -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 10:30, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Members of right sector and hooligans deliberately set the buinding on fire and mirdered in cold blood whoever tried to escape by jumping A collections of pics and some of the vids follows in this link http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1570374.html?thread=142067782#t142067782 To user named Львівське Stop spreading your POV and stop insulting murdered people's souls. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.231.211 ( talk) 14:42, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
An additional western media providing sources that proves the intentional murder of people in Odessa http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/06/ukraine-claims-30-pro-russia-separatists-killed The incident should not listed as 'Odessa clashes' but 'Odessa massacre' Gradually there is a convergence between Russian and Western media about that Perhaps only Lvivske still believes the opposite...i do hope wikipedians will change the entire article-name,content etc It would be useful to make a list of the murdered civilians and politicians by the right sector's neonazis-just there was a separate list of maydan protestors murdered by snipers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.241.32 ( talk) 11:43, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF-pU3o28s8
11 sec. "And now we have to burn this building together with them" (original in Russian) Cathry ( talk) 15:09, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
while it's locked just want to post notes for possible inclusion here:
former military officer Alexander Sadovnichy - "studies in Tiraspol, Transnistria" / ""Rudakova-Grizlo said that many more classmates would have come from Tiraspol for the funeral but that men with Russian passports were unable to cross the border into Ukraine, so she had come alone." -- Львівське ( говорити) 18:41, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
In the infobox it previously said this was between pro and anti 'euromaidan' groups, despite euromaidan being over and odessa never being a stronghold for maidan. Now RG has made it "Confrontation between supporters and opponents of the 2014 Ukrainian revolution" - is this not original research? This implies that one side was pro-government and the other is pro-yanukovych. All we know from the sources and reporting is that one side was rallying for national unity (apolitical) and the other side attacked and was pro-russian / st. george ribbon wearing -- Львівське ( говорити) 20:47, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
I do see that RFE calls them
'pro-Russian separatists and supporters of the government in Kyiv' --
Львівське (
говорити)
23:21, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Would like to add: "Photos taken show some corpses intoxicated by the fumes, with no burn marks. However, on most of the bodies only the face and hands are burned. Other parts of the body and clothing are often intact, and there is no sign of fire in the room. Some bodies had been dragged along the ground."
Source:
http://counterinformation.wordpress.com/2014/05/07/crime-in-odessa/
BloodofIndependence (
talk)
20:58, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
At least three journalists were shot over the weekend and others assaulted while covering deadly clashes
Pyotr Rakul, reporter for online news portal Info-Center, was shot in his left leg on Sunday. According to a report by Info-Center, Rakul was shot by a local police officer despite wearing a yellow vest marked "Press." It is unclear if Rakul's attacker was identified and apprehended.
On Sunday, pro-Russia activists roughed up Nataliya Tarasovskaya, journalist for the independent broadcaster Channel 5, and her cameramen as the TV crew was about to start reporting on air, news reports said.