This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
There is no indication of Israeli intelligence involvement at this time. The source cited doesn't mention anything about it either. Edit: The part mentioning that seems to have been removed from this page. 82.2.41.189 ( talk) 18:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. WP:SNOW. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Queen of Hearts ( talk) 20:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash → 2024 Iranian leadership helicopter crash – Similar to 2023 Wagner Group plane crash. The current title really undersells the significance of this event. Bremps ... 15:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Isn't discussing a succession too WP:CRYSTALBALL??? Borgenland ( talk) 18:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Khamenei's quote is mistranslated. He said to the people that "[They] don't need to be worried or anxious as administration of country will not be disrupted at all" Source Jondoeburner ( talk) 21:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
How long can he be missing until power is given to the next in the line of succession? 2602:306:BC74:6240:948:979E:186E:2296 ( talk) 00:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Possible
location at Tavil/Tawil per
AJE live blog - "The official said the location is in an area called
Tavil. Iran's Press TV also reported that rescue forces are heading towards the spot."
The slopes are clearly steep - a gradient of something like 1 in 2, i.e. 27 degrees. Not yet usable, but there should be proper sources soon.
Boud (
talk)
01:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
As we can see, the year isn't needed here and I doubt any sources there use it. InedibleHulk ( talk) 00:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
https://www.reuters.com/world/reactions-death-irans-president-helicopter-crash-2024-05-20/
Includes EU, Japan, Sri Lanka, Egypt, etc. 2Links ( talk) 08:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
There was a line but it has been deleted that Mokhber is now president for 6 month Baratiiman ( talk) 03:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
(Under "Crash" section) change awkwardly phrased "Giz Galasi event" to "inauguration of the complex", which would also connect better with the preceding "Background" section.
Td 078 (
talk)
03:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
should we move the page to something like "2024 Jolfa helicopter crash" since [2] reported a updated location? Haers6120 ( talk) 02:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Our article states "The helicopter's exact location and condition have not been disclosed" and provides a citation. We also have coords in use for the crash site – either the coords fail WP:V, or the earlier quote is outdated. Which is it? MIDI ( talk) 10:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
On the picture is not a helicopter but a plane and it is a different accident - پیدا شدن لاشه هواپیمای سقوط کرده در مازندران (tinn.ir) 85.163.239.53 ( talk) 07:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/reactions-crash-iranian-presidents-helicopter-2024-05-19/
dropping this here since I can't edit Readingpro256 talk to me contribs 02:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
https://www.aap.com.au/news/pm-waits-for-news-on-crash-search-for-iranian-president/
Australia prime minister also commented on the search. Amoresmore ( talk) 07:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Ayatollah al-Hashem survived long enough to speak on the phone at least twice and update the authorities on his condition, before dying at some point before the responders arrived. Should this be reflected on the list of survivors as "0 (initially 1)" and the fatalities as 8 (initially 7)"? Varavour ( talk) 15:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
it lists about two dozen people and honestly we should either cut it down or bulletpoint it NotQualified ( talk) 17:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
As many of you know, most editors despise list-formatted "Reactions" sections, especially the flag icons. These sections should be converted into prose—not a bulleted (flagged) list. Sourcing should not be primary, such as tweets, and should have encyclopedic value. A politician giving his/her condolences does not have much, if any, encyclopedic value, and each certainly does not need its own sentence or paragraph. Abductive ( reasoning) 09:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
I've just closed the " #government reaction paragraph should be turned into a bulletpoint list" discussion below as a duplicate of this topic to ensure we centralise discussion. The gist there is that the section should be turned into a bulleted list because it's (too) big – I would suggest that this is a sign the section is too large rather than needing change of format. Listing every country or head of state who has said something is not of benefit to the reader (and goes against my comment above of "I have no real objection [provided that it] isn't so many that it gets out of hand"). WP:REACTIONS#Problems sums up what's going on here. MIDI ( talk) 19:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Skyfrostt ( talk) 20:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Some sources say the involved helicopter was a Bell 212, not 412 which is usually used in official Iranian President travels. Aminabzz ( talk) 19:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Were there any signs of the helicopter having been sabotaged? 195.244.210.117 ( talk) 06:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
I am bringing up the issue of the photo of the helicopter in the infobox. I was surprised that Wikipedia had such a closeup, free-to-use photo, and I exposed here why this photo may not be depicting the President's crashed helicopter: https://commons.wikimedia.org/?title=File_talk%3AIranian_presidential_helicopter_crashed_2024.jpg#Issues_with_this_photo -- Inotodo ( talk) 07:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
== What was the call sign of the aircraft and the designation of the flight? Air transports of heads of state and government has "IRAN02". kencf0618 ( talk) 12:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
I think this is an important topic that should be included in the article. Source Tahriqedicii ( talk) 23:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
https://www.khabaronline.ir/amp/1908840/ Baratiiman ( talk) 04:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Would suggest the inclusion of alleged suspicion and accusation of Israel and America in to the crash.(sources: 1. https://www.business-standard.com/external-affairs-defence-security/news/why-president-ebrahim-raisi-s-death-comes-at-a-sensitive-time-for-iran-124052001331_1.html 2. https://www.livemint.com/news/world/ebrahim-raisi-assassinated-many-suspect-israels-role-behind-iran-presidents-death-officials-clarify-11716202227544.html 3. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/could-israel-be-behind-the-crash-of-iranian-president-ebrahim-raisis-helicopter/articleshow/110261625.cms 4. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/iran-president-raisi-helicopter-crash-like-a-netflix-thriller-raisis-death-revives-talk-of-mossads-free-run-in-iran-did-israel-kill-iran-president/articleshow/110268901.cms?from=mdr 5. https://vinnews.com/2024/05/20/israel-denies-involvement-in-raisis-death-iran-blames-us-for-preventing-spare-aviation-parts/)
IndianSainik ( talk) 15:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
{{
Edit extended-protected}}
template.
Melmann
19:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Since we have confirmation of the deaths of the passengers and crew on board, this can be classified as an accident. Change the Infobox to say “Accident” from “Occurrence.” 2603:8000:CD01:B7F0:D80C:7B8B:A5D7:91B4 ( talk) 00:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
The following "Raisi was the second president of Iran to have died in office, following Mohammad-Ali Rajai, who was killed in a bombing in 1981." Is in aftermath, it should be in background. Not relevant here.
The crash section cites Yahoo News saying 9 were killed in the crash, but the infobox cites AP News listing the number of deaths as 8. Whichever one is wrong should be altered, if that is known. I don't have permission. JorikThePooh ( talk) 21:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Could someone please add a link to Uzi, Varzaqan in the intro-- MarcelloIV ( talk) 09:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
The term imam for Mohammad Ali Ale-Hashem is a reference to his position as Imam of Friday Prayer in Tabriz. So it should be linked to Imam of Friday Prayer as imam is a very different position and has a whole other meaning. Jondoeburner ( talk) 11:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
We currently have {{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=a-i}} on this talk page, but there is so far only speculation about Arab-Israeli involvement. We don't have any warning about the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict, even though the event happened near the Azerbaijan border, and we don't have any warning about post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, even though Iran is under US sanctions and US-Iran relations come up often in post-1992 US political discussions.
Any objections to removing this particular template (topic=a-i) from this talk page? Boud ( talk) 19:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Turkish daily Türkiye reports the following in its article [3]:
According to what an Iranian security source we reached told our newspaper, the helicopter carrying the Iranian President shared crew and passenger classification information shortly before take-off. Foreign Minister Abdollahian and Tabriz Governor Malek Rahmati were planned to travel together in helicopter number 2. At the last moment, the General of the Revolutionary Guards Corps together with the Tabriz Representative of the religious leader Ali Khamenei, Mohammad Ali Ale-Hashem, were put on the helicopter.
The helicopters carrying Raisi were [usually] selected from Russian aircraft affiliated with Revolutionary Guard Corps. A 30-year-old US-made helicopter was chosen for the Tabriz trip. Another important detail is that while the previous pilots were selected from the Revolutionary Guard Corps, the flight crew for this trip was appointed from the Army staff. Three different tracking devices were fixed on the helicopter before the accident. In addition to the standard GPRS and transponder, a special system that provides 72-hour uninterrupted signal continuity was installed in the vehicle carrying Raisi. However, the location of the helicopter could not be determined.
Not sure how reliable Türkiye is, so not putting this in the article for the time being. — UnladenSwallow ( talk) 16:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Lithuanian Foreign Minister Gabrielius Landsbergis said he did not feel comfortable sending condolences to Iran for its provision of militarily aid to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. 200.12.168.26 ( talk) 21:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
BBC cites Iranian sources saying he survived for an hour. This may end up being information that turns out to be untrue later on, and it's only sourced to Iranian statements. Harizotoh9 ( talk) 08:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the section 2024_Varzaqan_helicopter_crash-> Reactions-> Foreign. The Azerbaijan President page is not linked to the president Wikipedia page. Please do the link to this page. /info/en/?search=Ilham_Aliyev Siddhu2411 ( talk) 09:11, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
I've found these videos [4] [5] in the Mehr News Agency website but I'd like to confirm if they are available under a free license before uploading them. Any thoughts? Basque mapping ( talk) 21:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Is this the president's helicopter or a rescue helicopter? The caption on Wikipedia differs from the one on Commons. The image has no source URL to verify. Schierbecker ( talk) 20:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
I've restored the image to the article, with a new caption. The image was removed with a claim that it was nominated for deletion at Commons. A claim that does not check out. The original image it was cropped from is from Mehr, and they do licence their images as CC4.0, so all is good. Mjroots ( talk) 13:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
The article says:
The helicopter involved, MSN 35071, registered as 6-9221, first flew around the late 1960s. The aircraft was said to be around 40 to 50 years old.
This makes no sense. The last year of the late 1960s was 1969, meaning that the helicopter was at least 2024 − 1969 = 55 years old. — UnladenSwallow ( talk) 19:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
The infobox's Summary field says that the helicopter "crashed in severe weather". However, the testimony of Gholam-Hossein Esmaeili, the head of the President's Office who was traveling in one of the other helicopters, contradicts that: [1]
Gholamhossein Esmaili said on Monday in an interview with the state TV that weather conditions in Iran’s Varzaqan region, where president Raisi’s copter crashed, was perfect at the start and during most of the flight that took place a day earlier.
…
He said the helicopters had taken off at around 1:00 p.m. local time on May 19 while weather condition in the area was normal.
After 45 minutes into the flight, the pilot of president Raisi’s helicopter who was in charge of the convoy, ordered other helicopters to increase altitude to avoid a nearby cloud.
Another one: [2]
Esmaeili said that weather conditions were favorable during the flight, with only one area being cloudy.
“Half an hour after the flight, there was cloudiness near the Sungun copper mine, but it was not fog. Perhaps there was fog deep in the gorge, but there was no fog along our flight path. The clouds were slightly higher than the helicopter. The pilot of the helicopter with the President on board, as commander, gave us instructions to gain altitude and continue moving above the clouds.
The helicopters increased altitude, and after about 30 seconds our pilot realized that the President's helicopter was missing. Eventually the clouds cleared and we saw the Sungun copper mine.
The severe weather with rain started after the crash, impeding the rescue efforts. — UnladenSwallow ( talk) 15:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
References
. [1] Baratiiman ( talk) 16:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
As the ASN Wikibase is being challenged as not being reliable (IMvHO, it is, because sourcing is insisted upon), I've been looking at the sources given there, and found this tweet by a news agency. Can we use this for the registration instead of ASN? Mjroots ( talk) 17:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Can the current tag be removed from the article now? Kiwiz1338 ( talk) 03:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Currently and since creation, the article has not specified a time on May 19th or even a rough time of day like Morning, Noon, Afternoon or Evening. From what I can tell from the creation time it was in the morning. Any articles or sources or references that say the time? Alexysun ( talk) 02:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
In the funeral section: hundreds of thousands were estimated to have followed the procession down Tehran's main boulevard. That's what the <ref> says but even so, it must have a name... Moscow Mule ( talk) 03:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Per [ [6]], I can only count eight people (5 passengers and 3 crew). Who was victim no. 9??? Borgenland ( talk) Borgenland ( talk) 10:03, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't know if anyone's in the middle of doing this, but the article is (still) contradictory – lead lists eight people, body says "It was eventually reported that nine people were in the helicopter when it crashed", and the infobox (worst of all) says 6 pax + 3 crew = 8 occupants. I think the quote ("it was eventually reported...") is probably superfluous, unless we're discussing how number of occupants was misreported or something like that; I think it can probably come out altogether. If that goes, it's only the infobox that needs fixing. MIDI ( talk) 12:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
The crash killed all eight people aboard a Bell 212 helicopter that Iran purchased in the early 2000s, according to the state-run IRNA news agency. Among the dead were Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amirabdollahian, the governor of Iran’s East Azerbaijan province, a senior cleric from Tabriz, a Revolutionary Guard official and three crew members, IRNA said.
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The coordinates mentioned here reflect a position more that 5km to the north of the actual location. The correct coordinates is as following 38°43'09.0"N 46°39'18.0"E this coordinate can be cross referenced with the physical and vegetaion pattern existed in the photographic evidences from the crash site, which can also be found at the following website: https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/iran-president-ebrahim-raisis-death-how-the-deadly-chopper-crash-unfolded-2541700-2024-05-20 Deja7Vu ( talk) 22:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
References
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Section = BACKGROUND Change "serial number" to "construction number" Change "aircraft registration number" from 6-9221 to 6-9207 Change "estimated to be 40-50 years old" to "built in 1994" with optional "and was 30 years old at the time of the crash" Remove "Much of Iran's military air fleet was acquired prior to the 1979 Revolution"
These are FACTS as explained by myself in the TALK pages. Whilst Reuters and others are perfectly acceptable 'reliable' sources for politics etc, when it comes to aviation matters, you can sometimes find that their 'aviation correspondent' is also a part-time racing commentator and property expert. Much of the Background section is attributed to AP correspondent Jon Gambrell, a foreign correspondent, photographer and news leader based in Dubai. My own field of expertise is just aviation.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/388106
https://www.rotorspot.nl/product/b212.php https://www.helis.com/database/model/Bell-212/cn?pag=10
The actual amount of Iran's military air fleet that pre-dates the 1979 Revolution can be accurately quantified by looking at Flight Global's annual review of World Air Power. But you also need to factor in how successful Iran has been in getting around the sanctions problem, updating these older aircraft, and/or sourcing aircraft from elsewhere (i.e. Russia). Airliners.net is a wonderful resource for high quality photographs of IRIAF aircraft, showing which ones are genuinely active. But above all else, is the statement even relevant now that I have shown that the crashed helicopter is from 1994 ?
Whether Iranian aircraft 'often fly without safety checks' is a very contentious (and almost certainly wholly unprovable) statement. And I see no evidence that 'Iran purchased the (crashed) helicopter in the early 2000s'. Or that it even matters. I do not feel that any of these statements add value to the article. WendlingCrusader ( talk) 12:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
This fact seems relevant, but I don't know where to put it: Iranian presidents Abolhassan Banisadr and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have both survived their own helicopter crashes while in office. [1] — UnladenSwallow ( talk) 14:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
References
The article says "the helicopter crashed approximately 2 kilometres (1.2 mi) southwest of the village of Uzi". This is supported by the BBC reference, which says "BBC Verify has confirmed the location of the helicopter crash site to a point in the mountains 2km (1.2 miles) south west of the village of Uzi, in north-west Iran." I appreciate that WP:VNT applies here, but our article on Uzi (with its coordinates) appears to show that the crash site is 4 kilometres (2.5 mi) north north east of Uzi. We'd be better finding sources that verify that Tavil is the nearest village, and using that as the locale. MIDI ( talk) 10:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
A small selection of news outlets reported on a 9th passenger with the name "Kruchev" [17] [18]
While not the most neutral source, there is a video from Warthog Defense [19] that suggests they are a Russian national whose involvement is being covered up. Perhapes it is nothing, but in the interest of factuality it may be worth finding where these names originally were introduced. 185.67.234.25 ( talk) 09:07, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
There was a 9th passenger who is suspected to threaten helicopter passengers . Al Hassan jumped down that’s why he didn’t burn . Others killed by bomb in pilot cabin . Hrazavi8881 ( talk) 03:37, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
I must question the relevance of the section reading "The
U.S. State Department stated that it was closely monitoring the situation, and president
Joe Biden was briefed about the incident.
[1] Australian prime minister
Anthony Albanese also said that he was monitoring the situation.
[2]
". To me it doesn't seem like a particularly relevant reaction (particularly when compared to the far-more substantial responses quoted from for-example the Italian prime minister or Lithuanian foreign minister) and if anything seems like a statement of the obvious (given the article describes the disappearance and death of the president of a nation of ninety-million people).
HumanBodyPiloter5 (
talk)
09:21, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
References
rtr
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Well-wishes and offers of support came from Prime Minister of India Narendra Modi, Prime Minister of Pakistan Shehbaz Sharif, President of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, and the foreign ministries of Afghanistan, China, Kuwait, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar.
Adding China to the list of foreign ministeries at the end of the International section. [1] EZJC ( talk) 04:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
References
Was what happenned in 2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash, Continued VFR into IMC?
If weather deteriorates during flight or the aircraft flies into clouds, a flight that started out under VFR may turn into a flight under IMC. This is known as VFR into IMC or Inadvertent Entry Into Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IIMC). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.112.19.231 ( talk) 13:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
There is no indication of Israeli intelligence involvement at this time. The source cited doesn't mention anything about it either. Edit: The part mentioning that seems to have been removed from this page. 82.2.41.189 ( talk) 18:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. WP:SNOW. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Queen of Hearts ( talk) 20:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash → 2024 Iranian leadership helicopter crash – Similar to 2023 Wagner Group plane crash. The current title really undersells the significance of this event. Bremps ... 15:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Isn't discussing a succession too WP:CRYSTALBALL??? Borgenland ( talk) 18:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Khamenei's quote is mistranslated. He said to the people that "[They] don't need to be worried or anxious as administration of country will not be disrupted at all" Source Jondoeburner ( talk) 21:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
How long can he be missing until power is given to the next in the line of succession? 2602:306:BC74:6240:948:979E:186E:2296 ( talk) 00:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Possible
location at Tavil/Tawil per
AJE live blog - "The official said the location is in an area called
Tavil. Iran's Press TV also reported that rescue forces are heading towards the spot."
The slopes are clearly steep - a gradient of something like 1 in 2, i.e. 27 degrees. Not yet usable, but there should be proper sources soon.
Boud (
talk)
01:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
As we can see, the year isn't needed here and I doubt any sources there use it. InedibleHulk ( talk) 00:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
https://www.reuters.com/world/reactions-death-irans-president-helicopter-crash-2024-05-20/
Includes EU, Japan, Sri Lanka, Egypt, etc. 2Links ( talk) 08:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
There was a line but it has been deleted that Mokhber is now president for 6 month Baratiiman ( talk) 03:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
(Under "Crash" section) change awkwardly phrased "Giz Galasi event" to "inauguration of the complex", which would also connect better with the preceding "Background" section.
Td 078 (
talk)
03:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
should we move the page to something like "2024 Jolfa helicopter crash" since [2] reported a updated location? Haers6120 ( talk) 02:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Our article states "The helicopter's exact location and condition have not been disclosed" and provides a citation. We also have coords in use for the crash site – either the coords fail WP:V, or the earlier quote is outdated. Which is it? MIDI ( talk) 10:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
On the picture is not a helicopter but a plane and it is a different accident - پیدا شدن لاشه هواپیمای سقوط کرده در مازندران (tinn.ir) 85.163.239.53 ( talk) 07:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/reactions-crash-iranian-presidents-helicopter-2024-05-19/
dropping this here since I can't edit Readingpro256 talk to me contribs 02:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
https://www.aap.com.au/news/pm-waits-for-news-on-crash-search-for-iranian-president/
Australia prime minister also commented on the search. Amoresmore ( talk) 07:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Ayatollah al-Hashem survived long enough to speak on the phone at least twice and update the authorities on his condition, before dying at some point before the responders arrived. Should this be reflected on the list of survivors as "0 (initially 1)" and the fatalities as 8 (initially 7)"? Varavour ( talk) 15:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
it lists about two dozen people and honestly we should either cut it down or bulletpoint it NotQualified ( talk) 17:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
As many of you know, most editors despise list-formatted "Reactions" sections, especially the flag icons. These sections should be converted into prose—not a bulleted (flagged) list. Sourcing should not be primary, such as tweets, and should have encyclopedic value. A politician giving his/her condolences does not have much, if any, encyclopedic value, and each certainly does not need its own sentence or paragraph. Abductive ( reasoning) 09:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
I've just closed the " #government reaction paragraph should be turned into a bulletpoint list" discussion below as a duplicate of this topic to ensure we centralise discussion. The gist there is that the section should be turned into a bulleted list because it's (too) big – I would suggest that this is a sign the section is too large rather than needing change of format. Listing every country or head of state who has said something is not of benefit to the reader (and goes against my comment above of "I have no real objection [provided that it] isn't so many that it gets out of hand"). WP:REACTIONS#Problems sums up what's going on here. MIDI ( talk) 19:01, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Skyfrostt ( talk) 20:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Some sources say the involved helicopter was a Bell 212, not 412 which is usually used in official Iranian President travels. Aminabzz ( talk) 19:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Were there any signs of the helicopter having been sabotaged? 195.244.210.117 ( talk) 06:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
I am bringing up the issue of the photo of the helicopter in the infobox. I was surprised that Wikipedia had such a closeup, free-to-use photo, and I exposed here why this photo may not be depicting the President's crashed helicopter: https://commons.wikimedia.org/?title=File_talk%3AIranian_presidential_helicopter_crashed_2024.jpg#Issues_with_this_photo -- Inotodo ( talk) 07:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
== What was the call sign of the aircraft and the designation of the flight? Air transports of heads of state and government has "IRAN02". kencf0618 ( talk) 12:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
I think this is an important topic that should be included in the article. Source Tahriqedicii ( talk) 23:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
https://www.khabaronline.ir/amp/1908840/ Baratiiman ( talk) 04:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Would suggest the inclusion of alleged suspicion and accusation of Israel and America in to the crash.(sources: 1. https://www.business-standard.com/external-affairs-defence-security/news/why-president-ebrahim-raisi-s-death-comes-at-a-sensitive-time-for-iran-124052001331_1.html 2. https://www.livemint.com/news/world/ebrahim-raisi-assassinated-many-suspect-israels-role-behind-iran-presidents-death-officials-clarify-11716202227544.html 3. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/could-israel-be-behind-the-crash-of-iranian-president-ebrahim-raisis-helicopter/articleshow/110261625.cms 4. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/iran-president-raisi-helicopter-crash-like-a-netflix-thriller-raisis-death-revives-talk-of-mossads-free-run-in-iran-did-israel-kill-iran-president/articleshow/110268901.cms?from=mdr 5. https://vinnews.com/2024/05/20/israel-denies-involvement-in-raisis-death-iran-blames-us-for-preventing-spare-aviation-parts/)
IndianSainik ( talk) 15:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
{{
Edit extended-protected}}
template.
Melmann
19:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Since we have confirmation of the deaths of the passengers and crew on board, this can be classified as an accident. Change the Infobox to say “Accident” from “Occurrence.” 2603:8000:CD01:B7F0:D80C:7B8B:A5D7:91B4 ( talk) 00:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
The following "Raisi was the second president of Iran to have died in office, following Mohammad-Ali Rajai, who was killed in a bombing in 1981." Is in aftermath, it should be in background. Not relevant here.
The crash section cites Yahoo News saying 9 were killed in the crash, but the infobox cites AP News listing the number of deaths as 8. Whichever one is wrong should be altered, if that is known. I don't have permission. JorikThePooh ( talk) 21:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Could someone please add a link to Uzi, Varzaqan in the intro-- MarcelloIV ( talk) 09:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
The term imam for Mohammad Ali Ale-Hashem is a reference to his position as Imam of Friday Prayer in Tabriz. So it should be linked to Imam of Friday Prayer as imam is a very different position and has a whole other meaning. Jondoeburner ( talk) 11:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
We currently have {{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=a-i}} on this talk page, but there is so far only speculation about Arab-Israeli involvement. We don't have any warning about the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict, even though the event happened near the Azerbaijan border, and we don't have any warning about post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, even though Iran is under US sanctions and US-Iran relations come up often in post-1992 US political discussions.
Any objections to removing this particular template (topic=a-i) from this talk page? Boud ( talk) 19:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Turkish daily Türkiye reports the following in its article [3]:
According to what an Iranian security source we reached told our newspaper, the helicopter carrying the Iranian President shared crew and passenger classification information shortly before take-off. Foreign Minister Abdollahian and Tabriz Governor Malek Rahmati were planned to travel together in helicopter number 2. At the last moment, the General of the Revolutionary Guards Corps together with the Tabriz Representative of the religious leader Ali Khamenei, Mohammad Ali Ale-Hashem, were put on the helicopter.
The helicopters carrying Raisi were [usually] selected from Russian aircraft affiliated with Revolutionary Guard Corps. A 30-year-old US-made helicopter was chosen for the Tabriz trip. Another important detail is that while the previous pilots were selected from the Revolutionary Guard Corps, the flight crew for this trip was appointed from the Army staff. Three different tracking devices were fixed on the helicopter before the accident. In addition to the standard GPRS and transponder, a special system that provides 72-hour uninterrupted signal continuity was installed in the vehicle carrying Raisi. However, the location of the helicopter could not be determined.
Not sure how reliable Türkiye is, so not putting this in the article for the time being. — UnladenSwallow ( talk) 16:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Lithuanian Foreign Minister Gabrielius Landsbergis said he did not feel comfortable sending condolences to Iran for its provision of militarily aid to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. 200.12.168.26 ( talk) 21:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
BBC cites Iranian sources saying he survived for an hour. This may end up being information that turns out to be untrue later on, and it's only sourced to Iranian statements. Harizotoh9 ( talk) 08:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the section 2024_Varzaqan_helicopter_crash-> Reactions-> Foreign. The Azerbaijan President page is not linked to the president Wikipedia page. Please do the link to this page. /info/en/?search=Ilham_Aliyev Siddhu2411 ( talk) 09:11, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
I've found these videos [4] [5] in the Mehr News Agency website but I'd like to confirm if they are available under a free license before uploading them. Any thoughts? Basque mapping ( talk) 21:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Is this the president's helicopter or a rescue helicopter? The caption on Wikipedia differs from the one on Commons. The image has no source URL to verify. Schierbecker ( talk) 20:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
I've restored the image to the article, with a new caption. The image was removed with a claim that it was nominated for deletion at Commons. A claim that does not check out. The original image it was cropped from is from Mehr, and they do licence their images as CC4.0, so all is good. Mjroots ( talk) 13:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
The article says:
The helicopter involved, MSN 35071, registered as 6-9221, first flew around the late 1960s. The aircraft was said to be around 40 to 50 years old.
This makes no sense. The last year of the late 1960s was 1969, meaning that the helicopter was at least 2024 − 1969 = 55 years old. — UnladenSwallow ( talk) 19:39, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
The infobox's Summary field says that the helicopter "crashed in severe weather". However, the testimony of Gholam-Hossein Esmaeili, the head of the President's Office who was traveling in one of the other helicopters, contradicts that: [1]
Gholamhossein Esmaili said on Monday in an interview with the state TV that weather conditions in Iran’s Varzaqan region, where president Raisi’s copter crashed, was perfect at the start and during most of the flight that took place a day earlier.
…
He said the helicopters had taken off at around 1:00 p.m. local time on May 19 while weather condition in the area was normal.
After 45 minutes into the flight, the pilot of president Raisi’s helicopter who was in charge of the convoy, ordered other helicopters to increase altitude to avoid a nearby cloud.
Another one: [2]
Esmaeili said that weather conditions were favorable during the flight, with only one area being cloudy.
“Half an hour after the flight, there was cloudiness near the Sungun copper mine, but it was not fog. Perhaps there was fog deep in the gorge, but there was no fog along our flight path. The clouds were slightly higher than the helicopter. The pilot of the helicopter with the President on board, as commander, gave us instructions to gain altitude and continue moving above the clouds.
The helicopters increased altitude, and after about 30 seconds our pilot realized that the President's helicopter was missing. Eventually the clouds cleared and we saw the Sungun copper mine.
The severe weather with rain started after the crash, impeding the rescue efforts. — UnladenSwallow ( talk) 15:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
References
. [1] Baratiiman ( talk) 16:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
As the ASN Wikibase is being challenged as not being reliable (IMvHO, it is, because sourcing is insisted upon), I've been looking at the sources given there, and found this tweet by a news agency. Can we use this for the registration instead of ASN? Mjroots ( talk) 17:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Can the current tag be removed from the article now? Kiwiz1338 ( talk) 03:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Currently and since creation, the article has not specified a time on May 19th or even a rough time of day like Morning, Noon, Afternoon or Evening. From what I can tell from the creation time it was in the morning. Any articles or sources or references that say the time? Alexysun ( talk) 02:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
In the funeral section: hundreds of thousands were estimated to have followed the procession down Tehran's main boulevard. That's what the <ref> says but even so, it must have a name... Moscow Mule ( talk) 03:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
Per [ [6]], I can only count eight people (5 passengers and 3 crew). Who was victim no. 9??? Borgenland ( talk) Borgenland ( talk) 10:03, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't know if anyone's in the middle of doing this, but the article is (still) contradictory – lead lists eight people, body says "It was eventually reported that nine people were in the helicopter when it crashed", and the infobox (worst of all) says 6 pax + 3 crew = 8 occupants. I think the quote ("it was eventually reported...") is probably superfluous, unless we're discussing how number of occupants was misreported or something like that; I think it can probably come out altogether. If that goes, it's only the infobox that needs fixing. MIDI ( talk) 12:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
The crash killed all eight people aboard a Bell 212 helicopter that Iran purchased in the early 2000s, according to the state-run IRNA news agency. Among the dead were Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amirabdollahian, the governor of Iran’s East Azerbaijan province, a senior cleric from Tabriz, a Revolutionary Guard official and three crew members, IRNA said.
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The coordinates mentioned here reflect a position more that 5km to the north of the actual location. The correct coordinates is as following 38°43'09.0"N 46°39'18.0"E this coordinate can be cross referenced with the physical and vegetaion pattern existed in the photographic evidences from the crash site, which can also be found at the following website: https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/iran-president-ebrahim-raisis-death-how-the-deadly-chopper-crash-unfolded-2541700-2024-05-20 Deja7Vu ( talk) 22:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
References
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Section = BACKGROUND Change "serial number" to "construction number" Change "aircraft registration number" from 6-9221 to 6-9207 Change "estimated to be 40-50 years old" to "built in 1994" with optional "and was 30 years old at the time of the crash" Remove "Much of Iran's military air fleet was acquired prior to the 1979 Revolution"
These are FACTS as explained by myself in the TALK pages. Whilst Reuters and others are perfectly acceptable 'reliable' sources for politics etc, when it comes to aviation matters, you can sometimes find that their 'aviation correspondent' is also a part-time racing commentator and property expert. Much of the Background section is attributed to AP correspondent Jon Gambrell, a foreign correspondent, photographer and news leader based in Dubai. My own field of expertise is just aviation.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/388106
https://www.rotorspot.nl/product/b212.php https://www.helis.com/database/model/Bell-212/cn?pag=10
The actual amount of Iran's military air fleet that pre-dates the 1979 Revolution can be accurately quantified by looking at Flight Global's annual review of World Air Power. But you also need to factor in how successful Iran has been in getting around the sanctions problem, updating these older aircraft, and/or sourcing aircraft from elsewhere (i.e. Russia). Airliners.net is a wonderful resource for high quality photographs of IRIAF aircraft, showing which ones are genuinely active. But above all else, is the statement even relevant now that I have shown that the crashed helicopter is from 1994 ?
Whether Iranian aircraft 'often fly without safety checks' is a very contentious (and almost certainly wholly unprovable) statement. And I see no evidence that 'Iran purchased the (crashed) helicopter in the early 2000s'. Or that it even matters. I do not feel that any of these statements add value to the article. WendlingCrusader ( talk) 12:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
This fact seems relevant, but I don't know where to put it: Iranian presidents Abolhassan Banisadr and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have both survived their own helicopter crashes while in office. [1] — UnladenSwallow ( talk) 14:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
References
The article says "the helicopter crashed approximately 2 kilometres (1.2 mi) southwest of the village of Uzi". This is supported by the BBC reference, which says "BBC Verify has confirmed the location of the helicopter crash site to a point in the mountains 2km (1.2 miles) south west of the village of Uzi, in north-west Iran." I appreciate that WP:VNT applies here, but our article on Uzi (with its coordinates) appears to show that the crash site is 4 kilometres (2.5 mi) north north east of Uzi. We'd be better finding sources that verify that Tavil is the nearest village, and using that as the locale. MIDI ( talk) 10:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
A small selection of news outlets reported on a 9th passenger with the name "Kruchev" [17] [18]
While not the most neutral source, there is a video from Warthog Defense [19] that suggests they are a Russian national whose involvement is being covered up. Perhapes it is nothing, but in the interest of factuality it may be worth finding where these names originally were introduced. 185.67.234.25 ( talk) 09:07, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
There was a 9th passenger who is suspected to threaten helicopter passengers . Al Hassan jumped down that’s why he didn’t burn . Others killed by bomb in pilot cabin . Hrazavi8881 ( talk) 03:37, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
I must question the relevance of the section reading "The
U.S. State Department stated that it was closely monitoring the situation, and president
Joe Biden was briefed about the incident.
[1] Australian prime minister
Anthony Albanese also said that he was monitoring the situation.
[2]
". To me it doesn't seem like a particularly relevant reaction (particularly when compared to the far-more substantial responses quoted from for-example the Italian prime minister or Lithuanian foreign minister) and if anything seems like a statement of the obvious (given the article describes the disappearance and death of the president of a nation of ninety-million people).
HumanBodyPiloter5 (
talk)
09:21, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
References
rtr
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This
edit request to
2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Well-wishes and offers of support came from Prime Minister of India Narendra Modi, Prime Minister of Pakistan Shehbaz Sharif, President of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, and the foreign ministries of Afghanistan, China, Kuwait, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar.
Adding China to the list of foreign ministeries at the end of the International section. [1] EZJC ( talk) 04:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
References
Was what happenned in 2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash, Continued VFR into IMC?
If weather deteriorates during flight or the aircraft flies into clouds, a flight that started out under VFR may turn into a flight under IMC. This is known as VFR into IMC or Inadvertent Entry Into Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IIMC). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.112.19.231 ( talk) 13:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)