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I want to draw attention to a series of rewrites by Thundercloss since June 17 or earlier. I notice that their edits, for the lack of a better word, are edgy and keep spamming certain ideas or cite a string of sources (5 or more) to draw attention to certain ideas visually, at the same time omitting other information. I tried to make changes here and there, but they have already restored everything as I type this.
I vaguely remember them first trying to showcase the hate crime aspect of the shooting in the top section by linking a lot of citations. It was a slightly odd thing to do.
In the Investigation section, they want to list each law enforcement agency to say this could be hate crime or something to that effect. There's no reason to list each one. They are all law enforcement or criminal justice saying the same thing. I think they also reworded to say Chou allegedly used the vehicle for the attack, which is silly. Had he ran over people, then it could be a vehicular crime, but that is not the case here. Presumably Chou also used his shoes and other items as well to get to the church.
They also called hate as Chou's motivation for the shooting. Usually that kind of certainty is justified only after the verdict. Not to mention they have already repeated hate crime in the opening and everywhere else.
In the Accused section, they removed almost everything about Chou's negative situation in life, being attacked by tenants, recovering his money from police, all heavily referred to by the NBC article. Statements from his neighbor, roommate, about his eviction, mental state and wife's illness are all removed. These are important aspects of the shooter's background. I already summarized everything so this would be like other article's bio section for perpetrators.
Then they went on to write that Chou supported pro-unification movement itself, which is a bit misleading, because he appears to be a lone wolf and at most supported the idea, not the movement. They wrote Chou has views against United States, which is a gross generalization. He specifically complained about law enforcement, exactly due to the incident that Thundercloss removed.
They have also removed references to Chou's involvement with Taiwanese Association of Las Vegas, which is important because the NBC article interviewed people who knew him there. He also identifies as Christian and was at the Las Vegas Taiwanese Presbyterian church a few times, another potential clue, which was removed as well.
About Chou's relationship with NACPU, there isn't too much conflicting report. Most reports say he has not been involved, so that should be the main message unless we have new information. The staff there also had their impression of Chou's personality, which was also removed by Thundercloss. The editor then added a bunch of citations after "pro independence demons". We can refer to the banner if it is that important, but Chou's political position is quite clear already. I don't want to overuse incendiary words, such as pro independent demon or monster or destroying them redundantly.
There were a bunch of other things they reverted, in the Reactions for example. I don't understand why they would have an issue with every single thing to undo all of them at once. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cobiexor ( talk • contribs) 17:37, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
A number of issues have been raised, and most still appear to need improvement. I left a message for Thundercloss so that they could review WP:BRD before reverting. Vacosea ( talk) 01:13, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Cobiexor, since your initial complaint of my changes to the article comprised of vague allegations and unclear proposals, I have created this section to try and rectify those two problems. List what specific issues you have with my latest rewrite of the article and what specifically you want done to resolve them [5] Thundercloss ( talk) 15:41, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Responsibility lies with the editor who initiated substantial rewrites and is being challenged, which is Thundercloss on both counts. Vacosea ( talk) 03:22, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Which version should be used?
Option 1: In 2009, Chou moved to Las Vegas and became a landlord with his wife. According to Balmore Orellana, a former tenant and neighbor of Chou, he was a considerate landlord as Chou did not raise his rent throughout the time that he lived there, but was verbally aggressive toward his wife as he would hear Chou yelling through the walls. In the wake of the shooting Orellana also recalled Chou telling him that he identified as Chinese despite his Taiwanese nationality, and believed that China and Taiwan were one country. In the mid 2010s Chou was almost beaten to death by two tenants who were in arrears; Orellana said the attack left him with scars all over his body and was a harbinger of the decline in his mental stability.
Option 2: According to his former neighbor, Chou was once a friendly owner of a Las Vegas apartment building. In 2012 he suffered a nearly fatal attack by two tenants over rent that led to a loss of consciousness, a broken skull, elbow, and partial hearing loss. He also suspected that police detectives tried to withhold a bag with his money before the prosecuter was involved and his bag was finally recovered.
The background to the rfc can be found in the “second paragraph” subsection of the accused section Thundercloss ( talk) 11:22, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
Option 1: as explained in further detail in the subsection, this version is better worded, more informative and more neutral. The deficiencies in just the first sentence of option 2 should be enough to disqualify it. Chou is described as a friendly landlord of a building in Las Vegas but there is no information either beforehand or afterwards about how Chou ended up in Las Vegas, how he became a landlord, why someone would describe Chou as “friendly” and why that’s even worth mentioning in the first place. Thundercloss ( talk) 11:22, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
References
A former neighbor told reporters that the suspected Laguana Hills gunmen had been declining mentally after nearly being beaten to death several years ago. Balmore Orellana told The Associated Press that Chou was once friendly and well-spoken before the beating caused his life to unravel.
In hindsight, Orellana believed Chou showed signs of mental instability ... Instead, the tenant beat Chou, fracturing his skull and breaking his arm.
他感謝檢察官Jonathan Cooper的細心,成功阻止了一場「劫中劫」! 二人假意給房租 ... 不久就不省人事,醒來時已躺日昇醫院(Sunrise Hospital)重創中心(Trauma Center),頭上、左眼眉心共縫了30幾針,左手肘骨被打斷,打了8根鋼釘,目前,還留下右耳失聰的後遺症。 He thanked prosecutor Jonathan Cooper for preventing him from getting robbed twice! The couple pretended to pay rent ... Soon he lost consciousness. After waking up at Sunrise Hospital Trauma Center, he had received 30 stitches on his head and left eye, his left elbow had fractured and needed 8 screws, his right hear lost its hearing.
事後詢問警方錢去了哪裡,員警供稱被檢方當成證物扣押,事後才發現根本就是謊言,因此引發不滿,讓他對美國司法體系徹底失望 After the incident (he) asked police where was the money, the officers said the prosecutor was keeping it as evidence, later (he) found out it was a lie and therefore became upset and disappointed by the U.S. judicial system.
被一對西班牙籍男女租客搶劫,導致其頭部受到重擊、左手和肋骨斷裂、右耳永久失聰。因為過去周文偉一直給人和藹可親的形象,認為可能是在差點被租客打死後性情大變。 Robbed by a Hispanic couple, causing heavy impact to his head, fracture of left hand and ribs, loss of hearing in the right ear. Because in the past Chou Wenwei always gave the impression of an amiable person, (his neighbor) believes that the beating might have caused his temperament to change significantly.
The acquaintances said the experience left him frustrated with law enforcement.
Chou grabbed the microphone ... proclaimed, "We are all Chinese." he still thinks that Taiwan is China.
To him, there's no border.
Often listed "China" as their birthplace on official documents when immigrating to the U.S. and this may have been the case with Chou.
被美方誤認為出生「中國」有其歷史淵源。大約50年前,台灣人持有護照上的出生地,英文為Repubilc of China,當時申請到美國的移民於官方文件的出生地多寫「中國」(China)。Misidentification by American authorities as born in "China" has historical reasons. About 50 years ago, the place of birth on Taiwanese passports was "Republic of China" in English. Immigrants to the U.S. usually wrote "China" as their place of birth.
Although police told the Guardian he was born in mainland China, Taiwan's Central News Agency, citing the head of the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in Los Angeles, Taiwan's de facto consulate in the city, reported that he was born in Taiwan in 1953.
The information contradicted reports issued by law enforcement officials in California on Monday that the assailant was from mainland China. News of the shooting, which was initially framed as a matter of mainland Chinese anger directed against Taiwan ... trended on many US media outlets on Monday. A second Taiwanese official in Los Angeles said that Chou was born in Taiwan and currently holds a Taiwan passport.
In the initial aftermath, Orange County Sheriff Don Barnes identified the suspect, 68-year-old David Chou, as a native of mainland China. That bit of news gained traction in outlets like the Associated Press, which described Chou as a "Chinese immigrant motivated by hate for Taiwanese," an angle that was further amplified in Apple Daily Taiwan. But those early reports turned out to be incorrect.
who immigrated from China.
Chou, a Chinese immigrant.
He described Chou as a considerate landlord: He never raised the rent in the five years that Orellana and his family lived there, and when the COVID-19 pandemic swept into Las Vegas, Chou often asked if they needed a break with the rent. He tended a small garden on the side of the building, and he’d regularly bring fruit, vegetables and cookies for Orellana’s family.
But he was “verbally aggressive” toward his wife, Orellana said, and he’d hear Chou yelling through the walls. By the time she left for Taiwan, diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer, “you could tell she was just tired of him.” With her gone, “he took it pretty hard,” Orellana said. [1]
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2022 Laguna Woods shooting article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 21 May 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Laguna Woods church shooting. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This article has been
mentioned by a media organization:
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
I want to draw attention to a series of rewrites by Thundercloss since June 17 or earlier. I notice that their edits, for the lack of a better word, are edgy and keep spamming certain ideas or cite a string of sources (5 or more) to draw attention to certain ideas visually, at the same time omitting other information. I tried to make changes here and there, but they have already restored everything as I type this.
I vaguely remember them first trying to showcase the hate crime aspect of the shooting in the top section by linking a lot of citations. It was a slightly odd thing to do.
In the Investigation section, they want to list each law enforcement agency to say this could be hate crime or something to that effect. There's no reason to list each one. They are all law enforcement or criminal justice saying the same thing. I think they also reworded to say Chou allegedly used the vehicle for the attack, which is silly. Had he ran over people, then it could be a vehicular crime, but that is not the case here. Presumably Chou also used his shoes and other items as well to get to the church.
They also called hate as Chou's motivation for the shooting. Usually that kind of certainty is justified only after the verdict. Not to mention they have already repeated hate crime in the opening and everywhere else.
In the Accused section, they removed almost everything about Chou's negative situation in life, being attacked by tenants, recovering his money from police, all heavily referred to by the NBC article. Statements from his neighbor, roommate, about his eviction, mental state and wife's illness are all removed. These are important aspects of the shooter's background. I already summarized everything so this would be like other article's bio section for perpetrators.
Then they went on to write that Chou supported pro-unification movement itself, which is a bit misleading, because he appears to be a lone wolf and at most supported the idea, not the movement. They wrote Chou has views against United States, which is a gross generalization. He specifically complained about law enforcement, exactly due to the incident that Thundercloss removed.
They have also removed references to Chou's involvement with Taiwanese Association of Las Vegas, which is important because the NBC article interviewed people who knew him there. He also identifies as Christian and was at the Las Vegas Taiwanese Presbyterian church a few times, another potential clue, which was removed as well.
About Chou's relationship with NACPU, there isn't too much conflicting report. Most reports say he has not been involved, so that should be the main message unless we have new information. The staff there also had their impression of Chou's personality, which was also removed by Thundercloss. The editor then added a bunch of citations after "pro independence demons". We can refer to the banner if it is that important, but Chou's political position is quite clear already. I don't want to overuse incendiary words, such as pro independent demon or monster or destroying them redundantly.
There were a bunch of other things they reverted, in the Reactions for example. I don't understand why they would have an issue with every single thing to undo all of them at once. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cobiexor ( talk • contribs) 17:37, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
A number of issues have been raised, and most still appear to need improvement. I left a message for Thundercloss so that they could review WP:BRD before reverting. Vacosea ( talk) 01:13, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Cobiexor, since your initial complaint of my changes to the article comprised of vague allegations and unclear proposals, I have created this section to try and rectify those two problems. List what specific issues you have with my latest rewrite of the article and what specifically you want done to resolve them [5] Thundercloss ( talk) 15:41, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Responsibility lies with the editor who initiated substantial rewrites and is being challenged, which is Thundercloss on both counts. Vacosea ( talk) 03:22, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Which version should be used?
Option 1: In 2009, Chou moved to Las Vegas and became a landlord with his wife. According to Balmore Orellana, a former tenant and neighbor of Chou, he was a considerate landlord as Chou did not raise his rent throughout the time that he lived there, but was verbally aggressive toward his wife as he would hear Chou yelling through the walls. In the wake of the shooting Orellana also recalled Chou telling him that he identified as Chinese despite his Taiwanese nationality, and believed that China and Taiwan were one country. In the mid 2010s Chou was almost beaten to death by two tenants who were in arrears; Orellana said the attack left him with scars all over his body and was a harbinger of the decline in his mental stability.
Option 2: According to his former neighbor, Chou was once a friendly owner of a Las Vegas apartment building. In 2012 he suffered a nearly fatal attack by two tenants over rent that led to a loss of consciousness, a broken skull, elbow, and partial hearing loss. He also suspected that police detectives tried to withhold a bag with his money before the prosecuter was involved and his bag was finally recovered.
The background to the rfc can be found in the “second paragraph” subsection of the accused section Thundercloss ( talk) 11:22, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
Option 1: as explained in further detail in the subsection, this version is better worded, more informative and more neutral. The deficiencies in just the first sentence of option 2 should be enough to disqualify it. Chou is described as a friendly landlord of a building in Las Vegas but there is no information either beforehand or afterwards about how Chou ended up in Las Vegas, how he became a landlord, why someone would describe Chou as “friendly” and why that’s even worth mentioning in the first place. Thundercloss ( talk) 11:22, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
References
A former neighbor told reporters that the suspected Laguana Hills gunmen had been declining mentally after nearly being beaten to death several years ago. Balmore Orellana told The Associated Press that Chou was once friendly and well-spoken before the beating caused his life to unravel.
In hindsight, Orellana believed Chou showed signs of mental instability ... Instead, the tenant beat Chou, fracturing his skull and breaking his arm.
他感謝檢察官Jonathan Cooper的細心,成功阻止了一場「劫中劫」! 二人假意給房租 ... 不久就不省人事,醒來時已躺日昇醫院(Sunrise Hospital)重創中心(Trauma Center),頭上、左眼眉心共縫了30幾針,左手肘骨被打斷,打了8根鋼釘,目前,還留下右耳失聰的後遺症。 He thanked prosecutor Jonathan Cooper for preventing him from getting robbed twice! The couple pretended to pay rent ... Soon he lost consciousness. After waking up at Sunrise Hospital Trauma Center, he had received 30 stitches on his head and left eye, his left elbow had fractured and needed 8 screws, his right hear lost its hearing.
事後詢問警方錢去了哪裡,員警供稱被檢方當成證物扣押,事後才發現根本就是謊言,因此引發不滿,讓他對美國司法體系徹底失望 After the incident (he) asked police where was the money, the officers said the prosecutor was keeping it as evidence, later (he) found out it was a lie and therefore became upset and disappointed by the U.S. judicial system.
被一對西班牙籍男女租客搶劫,導致其頭部受到重擊、左手和肋骨斷裂、右耳永久失聰。因為過去周文偉一直給人和藹可親的形象,認為可能是在差點被租客打死後性情大變。 Robbed by a Hispanic couple, causing heavy impact to his head, fracture of left hand and ribs, loss of hearing in the right ear. Because in the past Chou Wenwei always gave the impression of an amiable person, (his neighbor) believes that the beating might have caused his temperament to change significantly.
The acquaintances said the experience left him frustrated with law enforcement.
Chou grabbed the microphone ... proclaimed, "We are all Chinese." he still thinks that Taiwan is China.
To him, there's no border.
Often listed "China" as their birthplace on official documents when immigrating to the U.S. and this may have been the case with Chou.
被美方誤認為出生「中國」有其歷史淵源。大約50年前,台灣人持有護照上的出生地,英文為Repubilc of China,當時申請到美國的移民於官方文件的出生地多寫「中國」(China)。Misidentification by American authorities as born in "China" has historical reasons. About 50 years ago, the place of birth on Taiwanese passports was "Republic of China" in English. Immigrants to the U.S. usually wrote "China" as their place of birth.
Although police told the Guardian he was born in mainland China, Taiwan's Central News Agency, citing the head of the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in Los Angeles, Taiwan's de facto consulate in the city, reported that he was born in Taiwan in 1953.
The information contradicted reports issued by law enforcement officials in California on Monday that the assailant was from mainland China. News of the shooting, which was initially framed as a matter of mainland Chinese anger directed against Taiwan ... trended on many US media outlets on Monday. A second Taiwanese official in Los Angeles said that Chou was born in Taiwan and currently holds a Taiwan passport.
In the initial aftermath, Orange County Sheriff Don Barnes identified the suspect, 68-year-old David Chou, as a native of mainland China. That bit of news gained traction in outlets like the Associated Press, which described Chou as a "Chinese immigrant motivated by hate for Taiwanese," an angle that was further amplified in Apple Daily Taiwan. But those early reports turned out to be incorrect.
who immigrated from China.
Chou, a Chinese immigrant.
He described Chou as a considerate landlord: He never raised the rent in the five years that Orellana and his family lived there, and when the COVID-19 pandemic swept into Las Vegas, Chou often asked if they needed a break with the rent. He tended a small garden on the side of the building, and he’d regularly bring fruit, vegetables and cookies for Orellana’s family.
But he was “verbally aggressive” toward his wife, Orellana said, and he’d hear Chou yelling through the walls. By the time she left for Taiwan, diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer, “you could tell she was just tired of him.” With her gone, “he took it pretty hard,” Orellana said. [1]
References