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This is classic overspecification. It's putting too many indicators on a table that will just confuse a typical reader. It's similar to why we don't put "(X) Safe from relegation" against Manchester City and don't put "(Z) Cannot qualify for Champions League Group Stage" against Sheffield United. They might be "facts" but it's too much and too confusing. Add in the fact that Japan almost certainly won't even play in the Asian Cup Third Qualification Round anyway and it seems overly pedantic to note that for a little while the current situation holds. 110.33.18.238 ( talk) 01:56, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
This doesn't make sense anymore. If I go to the "Schedule" section it says Matchday 9 is ... 11 June 2021, but that it was originally on 4 June 2020. However, if I go to the matches on 11 June 2021 (say Group C) there is a note saying they were originally scheduled for 31 March 2020. Why? 110.33.28.251 ( talk) 00:17, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
After confirming the withdrawal of DPR Korea from 2022 FIFA World Cup qualification, the ranking of groups runner-up is to be modified accordingly as group F now has only 4 teams and which means that the runners-up results with fifth-placed team of each group are to be ignored (same proccedure was adopted during the 2018 FIFA World Cup qualification, also in the 2021 AFC Cup). Another modification is to be considered as Syria now is already qualified to the third round; even if Syria loses its remaining 3 matches, it'll have 15 pts and it'll be in the second place of the group A, their win over Guam is to be ignored for the runners-up ranking. This will make Syria compete with 12 pts tally that is enough to be the 4th best runner-up in the worst case, and here is why :
[What if Phillipines win 3 games out of 3 and China win 3 games out of 4 - won't Syria be third in their group?]
In Group DÂ :
KSA has already 2 draws, and Uzbekistan has already lost 2 matches, and they'll face each other in the last matchday ; If KSA wins it will top the group and Uzbekistan will only have 15 points (6 of them are to be ignored so it'll compete with 9 pts). If they draw, KSA is still winning the group and Uzbekistan will have 16 points (only 10 of them are to be included in the runners-up ranking), If Uzbekistan wins, it'll top the group and KSA will be second with 17 points (only 11 of them are to be included in runners-up ranking). Thus Group D runner-up will never reach the 12 pts mark that Syria has already guaranteed.
In group FÂ :
Tajikistan and Krgyzstan have already drew once and lost 2 times so they can never reach the 12 pts mark. However, they both can still win the group just in case Japan loses its 3 remaining matches and in that case Japan will only have 15 pts (only 9 of them are to be included) so here too it's impossible for groupe F runner-up to reach the 12 pts mark.
In Group GÂ :
There are three teams that still can reach the 18 pts mark (of which 12 pts are to be included); UAE, Malaysia and Vietnam. However, these three teams will face each other in the remaining matchdays. UAE and Malaysia have already lost 2 games so should they reach the 18/12 pts mark they must win all their games which is impossible as they'll face each other. So one of them is to be out according to the score of this match. The winner side (UAE or Malaysia) should beat Vietnam too to reach the 18/12 pts mark and in this case Vientnam (who already has 2 draws) will fall short with 17 pts, of which 11 pts are to be included) so it is impossible that Group G runner-up beats Syria's current points tally.
In Group HÂ :
Only Korea Rep and Turkmenistan can reach the 18 pts mark. Korea has already 2 draws and Turkmenistan has already 2 losses, and they still have a game against each other. The same situation of the Group D between KSA and Uzbekistan. Thus this group runner-up can't reach the 18/12 pts mark too.
Four of the eight groups runners-up can not reach/beat Syria's current tally of points while only three can do that. That means that in the worst case Syria will be the 4th best runner-up which is enough to qualify to the next round. I also had done a mathematical simulation to figure out whether I forgot something here but the outcome that I had is that Syria has a 100% probability of reaching the next round.
I'd like to mention that this discussion has no refs as it is just a logical examination of the current situation of the AFC qualification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SYFRA92 ( talk • contribs)
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The designator for Guam as being eliminated (Z) condition, needs to be updated to (Y) condition due to the change in rules around qualifying (see https://m.weibo.cn/5961019705/4641443593850044) 110.33.28.251 ( talk) 05:21, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
This page is a train wreck. Although it's not all our fault - For Maldives v Syria [ FIFA here] says it's 15:00 on 6 June in China. But [ FIFA also] says it's actually on the 7th. But [ AFC] says it's really on the 4th in Sharjah (which, to be fair, is where the teams are rumoured to be), but then [ AFC] also says it's really in China - although they hedge their bets by not being specific about the day. |This is probably the correct one (which doesn't have times yet) which Qby did reference in their edit.
Also, when editting a single line, it helps to read the lines around it, for example TIL that on the 12th of March the AFC actually announced Group A would be in the UAE. [Note, all links as at now, they change fairly regularly] 110.33.28.251 ( talk) 00:43, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Q tag specifically says Qualified to the phase indicated
and has always been used to refer to the indicated round next to the team's position. In this case, as Indonesia can only reach a max of 7 points (as of 4 June), they are only able to qualify for the AFC Asian Cup qualifying round. I do not understand why
Cococ2001 wants to insist the other case, since this article isn't only about World Cup qualifying.
Jalen Folf
(talk)
14:50, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
The AFC second round of 2022 FIFA World Cup qualification, which also serves as the second round of 2023 AFC Asian Cup qualification. The qualification process is valid for both the 2022 World Cup and 2023 Asian Cup. The reason why only Indonesia has Q, is because they are the only team that can mathematically only finish 5th. All other teams can mathematically finish 4th, meaning that theoretically they could qualify to the Asian Cup qualifying third round. Nehme 1499 19:39, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Jufafa: May I please have your explanation for removing this tag here? Jalen Folf (talk) 02:06, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
I just noticed Footy2000 brought up that once this round of qualifiers is over that the letters will serve no purpose, and I have to agree with them here. Until then, the letters are necessary as this is still an ongoing qualifying event. Jalen Folf (talk) 05:55, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
The current article is no longer readable because you no longer can collapse a section and navigate wherever you want. I propose that this article should be split into two sections: Group A-D and Group E-H.
Footy2000 ( talk) 08:10, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes it does occur on mobile devices, but the thing is majority of the views are from mobile devices. The article currently looks like it is all over the place without proper organisation, it also turns lagy as you scroll through it. The 2018 version of the article won't have much users compared to the current one. If we are able to split this, then we can do it for the 2018 version too. And as far as other articles are concerned, I have no idea, but the closest thing that I saw which was similar was SpaceX Starship article. It was proposed to be split into two sections: Booster stage and upper stage. Footy2000 ( talk) 11:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
I am sorry for not clarifying in edit summary, but after calculating other groups, I am very sure that Australia qualified for 3rd round even if they do not win group B. In group C, the best case scenario is Iraq finish 2nd with 17 points (defeat Hongkong then lose to Iran, and Iran defeat Cambodia) -> 11 points in 2nd-place ranking. Group G is the same, my national team Vietnam defeat Malaysia, lose to UAE, then UAE defeat Indonesia -> 17 and 11 points respectively. In group F, Kyrgyzstan/Tajikistan can have at most 13 points -> maximum 10 points in runners-up ranking (they lost once against Mongolia/Myanmar). Meanwhile AUS already have 18(12) points. Centaur271188 ( talk) 05:20, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Fauzannaufan: It is impossible for Iran/UAE to have 12 points (+6 vs Cambodia/Indonesia =18) and still finish 2nd. If they have 18 points then they already defeat Iraq/Vietnam to win their group. Centaur271188 ( talk) 08:49, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Fauzannaufan: Reasonable thought. But I think it would be a WP:OR case if we state that the 5th best runners-up qualify for Asian Cup directly. If China do not finish in top 5 runners-up, we will have 14 teams (8 group winners, 5 best runners-up and China) directly qualified, so there are only 10 berths left for the Asian Cup 3rd round. Meanwhile AFC official regulations ( [1] page 26) say that the 3rd round must consist of 24 teams, drawn into 6 groups of 4, then 2 leading teams in each group (12 total) qualify. I think the best we can do is follow the sources, and reinstate the old form of runners-up ranking [2]. Centaur271188 ( talk) 11:28, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Obviously the fifth best runner-up will now qualify for the World Cup qualifiers third stage, but surely they won't also have to go to the Asian Cup qualifiers third stage as well? The citation given doesn't directly support this. Paladisious ( talk) 13:31, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
@ JaParGet and Fauzannaufan: I appreciate that you guys are trying to fix this mess, but it is not our job. The current form of runners-up ranking still implies more than 12 teams will qualify for Asian Cup directly, against the official regulations. Centaur271188 ( talk) 05:36, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
In Group F, Tajikistan is already out. Even if they win their final round against Myanmar, they would only have 13(7) points, behind the current ones.
However, Kyrgyzstan still has a chance. If they win the next two rounds they would be at 13(10) points, so that would then depend on the other groups.
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17:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
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I see symbols like (Q) in the table being misused Viethai3a5 ( talk) 04:11, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template. This was discussed above at
#The Q tag.
Jalen Folf
(talk)
05:16, 12 June 2021 (UTC)I'm very confused, what is Lebanon's situation right now? Are they qualified to the 2023 Asian Cup, or do they have to play the third round of qualifiers (for both the World Cup and Asian Cup)? Nehme 1499 20:17, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
All 12 teams also confirmed their tickets to the AFC Asian Cup China 2023 by qualifying for the final round of the Asian Qualifiers for the FIFA World Cup. Nehme 1499 21:53, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
Per AFC Asian Cup regulation section 8.3, "8.3. There shall be two (2) rounds played in a knockout format." After add-up calucations, it is impossible that two rounds could be played to decide the 9 teams to the play-off round by 11 teams. According to 4th Worst 4+5th, Round 1 have 10 teams, 5 qualify, and the remaining six teams for three slots. The final slot will be disappeared. Following this calucation, it could be easily conclude that Hong Kong, the best 5th placed team, will be lifted up to the third round to maintain the number balance. As a result, I have edited the table. KyleRGiggs ( talk) 03:30, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
Are you kiddin' us? Is this a bad joke or propaganda? Please, remove this anachronism that sounds like a very bad joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.239.47.28 ( talk)
UEFA keeps teams apart in separate groups if there would be political issues, which is seen most often in Russia vs Ukraine.
Given that China has a political issue with Taiwan, does the same not apply in keeping China and Chinese Taipei (which represents Taiwan) apart in different groups? 108.175.235.216 ( talk) 03:16, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
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This is classic overspecification. It's putting too many indicators on a table that will just confuse a typical reader. It's similar to why we don't put "(X) Safe from relegation" against Manchester City and don't put "(Z) Cannot qualify for Champions League Group Stage" against Sheffield United. They might be "facts" but it's too much and too confusing. Add in the fact that Japan almost certainly won't even play in the Asian Cup Third Qualification Round anyway and it seems overly pedantic to note that for a little while the current situation holds. 110.33.18.238 ( talk) 01:56, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
This doesn't make sense anymore. If I go to the "Schedule" section it says Matchday 9 is ... 11 June 2021, but that it was originally on 4 June 2020. However, if I go to the matches on 11 June 2021 (say Group C) there is a note saying they were originally scheduled for 31 March 2020. Why? 110.33.28.251 ( talk) 00:17, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
After confirming the withdrawal of DPR Korea from 2022 FIFA World Cup qualification, the ranking of groups runner-up is to be modified accordingly as group F now has only 4 teams and which means that the runners-up results with fifth-placed team of each group are to be ignored (same proccedure was adopted during the 2018 FIFA World Cup qualification, also in the 2021 AFC Cup). Another modification is to be considered as Syria now is already qualified to the third round; even if Syria loses its remaining 3 matches, it'll have 15 pts and it'll be in the second place of the group A, their win over Guam is to be ignored for the runners-up ranking. This will make Syria compete with 12 pts tally that is enough to be the 4th best runner-up in the worst case, and here is why :
[What if Phillipines win 3 games out of 3 and China win 3 games out of 4 - won't Syria be third in their group?]
In Group DÂ :
KSA has already 2 draws, and Uzbekistan has already lost 2 matches, and they'll face each other in the last matchday ; If KSA wins it will top the group and Uzbekistan will only have 15 points (6 of them are to be ignored so it'll compete with 9 pts). If they draw, KSA is still winning the group and Uzbekistan will have 16 points (only 10 of them are to be included in the runners-up ranking), If Uzbekistan wins, it'll top the group and KSA will be second with 17 points (only 11 of them are to be included in runners-up ranking). Thus Group D runner-up will never reach the 12 pts mark that Syria has already guaranteed.
In group FÂ :
Tajikistan and Krgyzstan have already drew once and lost 2 times so they can never reach the 12 pts mark. However, they both can still win the group just in case Japan loses its 3 remaining matches and in that case Japan will only have 15 pts (only 9 of them are to be included) so here too it's impossible for groupe F runner-up to reach the 12 pts mark.
In Group GÂ :
There are three teams that still can reach the 18 pts mark (of which 12 pts are to be included); UAE, Malaysia and Vietnam. However, these three teams will face each other in the remaining matchdays. UAE and Malaysia have already lost 2 games so should they reach the 18/12 pts mark they must win all their games which is impossible as they'll face each other. So one of them is to be out according to the score of this match. The winner side (UAE or Malaysia) should beat Vietnam too to reach the 18/12 pts mark and in this case Vientnam (who already has 2 draws) will fall short with 17 pts, of which 11 pts are to be included) so it is impossible that Group G runner-up beats Syria's current points tally.
In Group HÂ :
Only Korea Rep and Turkmenistan can reach the 18 pts mark. Korea has already 2 draws and Turkmenistan has already 2 losses, and they still have a game against each other. The same situation of the Group D between KSA and Uzbekistan. Thus this group runner-up can't reach the 18/12 pts mark too.
Four of the eight groups runners-up can not reach/beat Syria's current tally of points while only three can do that. That means that in the worst case Syria will be the 4th best runner-up which is enough to qualify to the next round. I also had done a mathematical simulation to figure out whether I forgot something here but the outcome that I had is that Syria has a 100% probability of reaching the next round.
I'd like to mention that this discussion has no refs as it is just a logical examination of the current situation of the AFC qualification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SYFRA92 ( talk • contribs)
![]() | This
edit request to
2022 FIFA World Cup qualification – AFC Second Round has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The designator for Guam as being eliminated (Z) condition, needs to be updated to (Y) condition due to the change in rules around qualifying (see https://m.weibo.cn/5961019705/4641443593850044) 110.33.28.251 ( talk) 05:21, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
This page is a train wreck. Although it's not all our fault - For Maldives v Syria [ FIFA here] says it's 15:00 on 6 June in China. But [ FIFA also] says it's actually on the 7th. But [ AFC] says it's really on the 4th in Sharjah (which, to be fair, is where the teams are rumoured to be), but then [ AFC] also says it's really in China - although they hedge their bets by not being specific about the day. |This is probably the correct one (which doesn't have times yet) which Qby did reference in their edit.
Also, when editting a single line, it helps to read the lines around it, for example TIL that on the 12th of March the AFC actually announced Group A would be in the UAE. [Note, all links as at now, they change fairly regularly] 110.33.28.251 ( talk) 00:43, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Q tag specifically says Qualified to the phase indicated
and has always been used to refer to the indicated round next to the team's position. In this case, as Indonesia can only reach a max of 7 points (as of 4 June), they are only able to qualify for the AFC Asian Cup qualifying round. I do not understand why
Cococ2001 wants to insist the other case, since this article isn't only about World Cup qualifying.
Jalen Folf
(talk)
14:50, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
The AFC second round of 2022 FIFA World Cup qualification, which also serves as the second round of 2023 AFC Asian Cup qualification. The qualification process is valid for both the 2022 World Cup and 2023 Asian Cup. The reason why only Indonesia has Q, is because they are the only team that can mathematically only finish 5th. All other teams can mathematically finish 4th, meaning that theoretically they could qualify to the Asian Cup qualifying third round. Nehme 1499 19:39, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Jufafa: May I please have your explanation for removing this tag here? Jalen Folf (talk) 02:06, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
I just noticed Footy2000 brought up that once this round of qualifiers is over that the letters will serve no purpose, and I have to agree with them here. Until then, the letters are necessary as this is still an ongoing qualifying event. Jalen Folf (talk) 05:55, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
The current article is no longer readable because you no longer can collapse a section and navigate wherever you want. I propose that this article should be split into two sections: Group A-D and Group E-H.
Footy2000 ( talk) 08:10, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes it does occur on mobile devices, but the thing is majority of the views are from mobile devices. The article currently looks like it is all over the place without proper organisation, it also turns lagy as you scroll through it. The 2018 version of the article won't have much users compared to the current one. If we are able to split this, then we can do it for the 2018 version too. And as far as other articles are concerned, I have no idea, but the closest thing that I saw which was similar was SpaceX Starship article. It was proposed to be split into two sections: Booster stage and upper stage. Footy2000 ( talk) 11:45, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
I am sorry for not clarifying in edit summary, but after calculating other groups, I am very sure that Australia qualified for 3rd round even if they do not win group B. In group C, the best case scenario is Iraq finish 2nd with 17 points (defeat Hongkong then lose to Iran, and Iran defeat Cambodia) -> 11 points in 2nd-place ranking. Group G is the same, my national team Vietnam defeat Malaysia, lose to UAE, then UAE defeat Indonesia -> 17 and 11 points respectively. In group F, Kyrgyzstan/Tajikistan can have at most 13 points -> maximum 10 points in runners-up ranking (they lost once against Mongolia/Myanmar). Meanwhile AUS already have 18(12) points. Centaur271188 ( talk) 05:20, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Fauzannaufan: It is impossible for Iran/UAE to have 12 points (+6 vs Cambodia/Indonesia =18) and still finish 2nd. If they have 18 points then they already defeat Iraq/Vietnam to win their group. Centaur271188 ( talk) 08:49, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Fauzannaufan: Reasonable thought. But I think it would be a WP:OR case if we state that the 5th best runners-up qualify for Asian Cup directly. If China do not finish in top 5 runners-up, we will have 14 teams (8 group winners, 5 best runners-up and China) directly qualified, so there are only 10 berths left for the Asian Cup 3rd round. Meanwhile AFC official regulations ( [1] page 26) say that the 3rd round must consist of 24 teams, drawn into 6 groups of 4, then 2 leading teams in each group (12 total) qualify. I think the best we can do is follow the sources, and reinstate the old form of runners-up ranking [2]. Centaur271188 ( talk) 11:28, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Obviously the fifth best runner-up will now qualify for the World Cup qualifiers third stage, but surely they won't also have to go to the Asian Cup qualifiers third stage as well? The citation given doesn't directly support this. Paladisious ( talk) 13:31, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
@ JaParGet and Fauzannaufan: I appreciate that you guys are trying to fix this mess, but it is not our job. The current form of runners-up ranking still implies more than 12 teams will qualify for Asian Cup directly, against the official regulations. Centaur271188 ( talk) 05:36, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
In Group F, Tajikistan is already out. Even if they win their final round against Myanmar, they would only have 13(7) points, behind the current ones.
However, Kyrgyzstan still has a chance. If they win the next two rounds they would be at 13(10) points, so that would then depend on the other groups.
No
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17:38, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
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Change 82.57.82.174 ( talk) 14:06, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
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I see symbols like (Q) in the table being misused Viethai3a5 ( talk) 04:11, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template. This was discussed above at
#The Q tag.
Jalen Folf
(talk)
05:16, 12 June 2021 (UTC)I'm very confused, what is Lebanon's situation right now? Are they qualified to the 2023 Asian Cup, or do they have to play the third round of qualifiers (for both the World Cup and Asian Cup)? Nehme 1499 20:17, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
All 12 teams also confirmed their tickets to the AFC Asian Cup China 2023 by qualifying for the final round of the Asian Qualifiers for the FIFA World Cup. Nehme 1499 21:53, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
Per AFC Asian Cup regulation section 8.3, "8.3. There shall be two (2) rounds played in a knockout format." After add-up calucations, it is impossible that two rounds could be played to decide the 9 teams to the play-off round by 11 teams. According to 4th Worst 4+5th, Round 1 have 10 teams, 5 qualify, and the remaining six teams for three slots. The final slot will be disappeared. Following this calucation, it could be easily conclude that Hong Kong, the best 5th placed team, will be lifted up to the third round to maintain the number balance. As a result, I have edited the table. KyleRGiggs ( talk) 03:30, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
Are you kiddin' us? Is this a bad joke or propaganda? Please, remove this anachronism that sounds like a very bad joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.239.47.28 ( talk)
UEFA keeps teams apart in separate groups if there would be political issues, which is seen most often in Russia vs Ukraine.
Given that China has a political issue with Taiwan, does the same not apply in keeping China and Chinese Taipei (which represents Taiwan) apart in different groups? 108.175.235.216 ( talk) 03:16, 30 November 2022 (UTC)