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Can someone help me out with this? It surely needs some copyediting. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 22:12, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
How many attacks have the ADA admitted? Johncdraper ( talk) 12:38, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Well, I don't think we can find lotsa sources about it. But the 4 October attack struck Aziz Aliyev Street, which was known as the Armenian quarter before Azerbaijan's independence. They even found an ethnic Armenian among the injured civilians 1 2. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 16:00, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Alright. I was able to use official and third-party sources (Bild, Hikmat Hajiyev etc.) to geolocate where the missiles hit. Here is the list:
Can someone help with converting these to the map? --► Sincerely: Sola Virum
I am placing POV tag until issues resolved. Almost all articles refer to allegation by Azerbaijan. Have there been any independent news agencies that have provided proof of these claims? Armenia has denied almost all of these allegations. Expertwikiguy ( talk) 21:58, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
@
Mhmk97: We do not have to insert "allegedly" into the statements The Ganja ballistic missile attacks were four separate missile attacks
or The first attack took place on 4 October, killing one civilian and wounding more than 30
. There is not doubt over whether an attack occurred. The uncertainty comes when it's time to discuss who fired the missiles, and that is properly described in the third paragraph of the lead: Azerbaijan accused Armenia of the attacks, but Armenia denied any responsibility
. Introducing "allegedly" into the first two sentences makes it sound like there is some doubt as to whether missiles even struck Ganja, which is not the case.
GorillaWarfare
(talk) 02:39, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
What is the notability of this, besides the fact that media has written about it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:1085:D560:699A:511E:2924:3992 ( talk) 09:54, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
This page should not be speedily deleted because this appears to be a drive-by template by an unregistered user. Add: reverted as vandalism and posted appropriate template to user's Talk. Johncdraper ( talk) 09:56, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
This article has been on many radars since yesterday, especially in Armenia. People didn't liked an article about a human tragedy, and have been making conspiracy theories, mistakenly citing Wikipedia's server time (which uses UTC+0, four hours behind the current time). And an English-Armenian journalist, Onnik J. Krikorian have commented on the issue. In the meanwhile, I was able to put some light into it. But, nevertheless, be cautious. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 10:06, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
This cite's author metadata is incorrectly populated. Johncdraper ( talk) 12:53, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
This article may require semi-protection? Johncdraper ( talk) 16:05, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
I have reworded it. Hemşinli çocuk 14:40, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
On 4th of October, before the two major attacks on Ganja of 10th and 17th of October, the president of the de facto Republic of Artsakh Arayik Harutyunyan issued two warnings ( here and here) to the civilians of Azerbaijan. This was after what he claimed was the use of "Polonez and Smerch multiple launch rocket systems" against Stepanakert. His words were "From now on, military facilities permanently located in major cities of Azerbaijan became the targets of the Defense Army. I call on the people of Azerbaijan to leave these cities as soon as possible to avoid possible casualties.". In the second warning he mentions calling off an attack on Ganja last minute to avoid civilian casualties, saying that "Azerbaijan can stop before it is too late". I think the fact of the warning has to be mentioned in the background section of this article -- Sataralynd ( talk) 09:05, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
Summary: as no one is opposed to the addition and the article is open to editing, I just added the above bold text. Thanks for your comments.-- Sataralynd ( talk) 01:24, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
@ E badalyan: Addressing your edits:
1) You're adding an "According to Azerbaijani side" to a sentence stating on what day the attack happened. The date of the attack isn't under question.
2) How is "It was one of the first serious attacks in the conflict outside the Nagorno-Karabakh region" an opinion? What other large cities outside of the disputed/occupied territories do you know that has been bombed severely? — CuriousGolden (talk· contrib) 20:46, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus, discussion already continued in new RM below. ( non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs ( talk) 22:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
2020 Ganja ballistic missile attacks → Ganja ballistic missile attacks – It's the first time Ganja was hit by a missile, so the "2020" part is irrelevant and I don't see any reason why the "ballistic" part must be specified in the title, making it unnecessarily longer. — CuriousGolden (talk· contrib) 14:34, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
EDIT: I have changed the move request name to Ganja ballistic missile attacks per the message below. — CuriousGolden (talk· contrib) 10:14, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Solavirum:, despite the discussion that is ongoing here about the topic of the warning to the civilians of Ganja, you have unilaterally removed again the warning description from the Background section of the article stating 'not "background" if it happened during the attack' when I have challenged that position on your talk page and you didn't answered to that challenge. You have disengaged from that discussion in breach of policy, and just went ahead and made the reversion for the third time now, without discussion-- Sataralynd ( talk) 21:32, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
@ CuriousGolden: I see you have just reverted my edit on the background section, changing significantly the intended meaning. Our job is not to reinterpret the content of the source WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH but to present them as they are. Removing the reference to the targeting of civilians in Stepanakert, which according to the source was the reason for the warning is not justified. You have done this substantial change despite there being two talks here on the topic, and you were engaged in one of them. Could you please 1) revert the change 2) outline your reasoning behind the intended change (if you still want to make it)? Thanks -- Sataralynd ( talk) 04:35, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Despite numerous warnings, the Azerbaijani terrorist army continues targeting the civilian population in Stepanakert, using "Polonez" and "Smerch" multiple launch rocket systems. From now on, military facilities permanently located in major cities of Azerbaijan became the targets of the Defense Army."
1) changed de facto to self proclaimed 2) removed the mention that Stepanakert has been targetted by deleting been targeting civilians in Stepanakert, which was the reason for the warning 3) removed the type of weapons, using Polonez and Smerch missiles as you claim there is no proof they were in Ganja I have reverted all the three changes because you didn't explain the first two, and the word "claimed" about the weapons and them being in ganja is there to highlight that it is a claim. Further here is a source about the claim of this weapon use and no one expects the other side to know from where each weapon is coming. If you have a denial from the Azerbaijan government on this topic, bring in the source and add the words which Azerbaijan denied at the end-- Sataralynd ( talk) 22:22, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
@
CuriousGolden: regarding 1) suggest to remove both terms as they are both mentioned in the previous paragraph and the intention of the paragraph is to talk about the warning and not the legal status of RoA. 2) and 3) please see
here where he is clearly stating that civilians in Artsakh have been targeted by military facilities in Ganja using cluster bombs, and for self defence purposes he is attacking Ganja and calling the civilian population to leave it, again on the 4th of October. I agree there is no explicit mention about Smerch and Polonez missiles coming from Ganja itself so we don't have to call these weapons in the article. But, there is mention of cluster munitions from Ganja targeting civilians in Artsakh and as their use were proven by Azerbaijan in Stepanakert so need to mention it (
here - so we have claim + third party evidence)
If you are ok, I'll make these changes-- Sataralynd ( talk) 21:57, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
"President of the unrecognised Republic of Artsakh announced that he would bomb Ganja because of Azerbaijan's shelling of Stepanakert."
1) I suggest we use "self-proclaimed de facto" and put this matter to bed. It presents both what Artsakh sees itself, as well as its international status 2) Fine about Stepanakert being left out. But, it is very clear that the sources present a warning to the civilians of Ganja to leave the city. This is not a matter of interpretation as you claim though I'm sure Azerbaijan would say so. I'm happy to take it to dispute resolution if you disagree because it is going around in circles. This is to be mentioned in the background section because the warning, albeit (arguably) coincided with the first attack, happened before the three others, but more importantly before the two most deadly attacks on 10th and 17th of October In light of the above, I suggest we rephrase as follows: On 4th of October, Arayik Harutyunyan, the self-proclaimed de facto Republic of Artsakh's president, issued a warning to the Azerbaijani army and civilians for the latter to leave Ganja, claiming that military facilities permanently located there have been targeting civilians in Artsakh. Plase note that the language used is much stronger, but I am choosing to redact it in order to present the content of the message, as well as maintain the NPOV -- Sataralynd ( talk) 23:44, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
On 4th of October, after the first attack, Arayik Harutyunyan, the self-proclaimed de facto Republic of Artsakh's president, issued a warning to the Azerbaijani army and civilians for the latter to leave Ganja, claiming that military facilities were permanently located in the city.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:15, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved
Five support !votes (including the nom) versus one oppose !vote shows a clear consensus to move in terms of raw numbers. Looking at the arguments a clear invocation of
WP:CRITERIA is made for support (particularly that the new title is more precise and shorter) but not much in the way of policy is cited against that.(
non-admin closure)
FOARP (
talk) 20:30, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
2020 Ganja ballistic missile attacks →
2020 Ganja missile attacks – The use of ballistic missiles in Ganja has not been confirmed by international media or reliable third party source. Sincerely,
Գարիկ Ավագյան (
talk) 18:39, 7 November 2020 (UTC) —Relisting.
BegbertBiggs (
talk) 22:45, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
Support there has been no evidence presented on the use of ballistic missiles by Armenia or NK forces. The AI piece that @ CuriousGolden: mentions doesn't make a specific claim about who used it-- Sataralynd ( talk) 19:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Solavirum: which claim is that? you need to provide sources as the title you are advocating has an extra piece of information (i.e. the use of ballistic missiles) without any evidence-- Sataralynd ( talk) 02:48, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. ( non-admin closure) Vpab15 ( talk) 23:42, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
2020 Ganja missile attacks →
Ganja missile attacks – There have been no attacks on this city before, therefore there's no need to specify the year by adding "2020". In addition, none of the
WP:RS specify "2020" in their titles to describe the event (
BBC,
France24,
Al Jazeera). —
CuriousGolden
(T·
C) 19:20, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Zohrab Mnatsakanyan confirmed this was retaliation for Azerbaijan shelling civilian areas in Stepanakert. [1] -- Steverci ( talk) 17:57, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
You cannot visit www.mfa.am right now because the website uses HSTS. Network errors and attacks are usually temporary, so this page will probably work later. This is preventing me from accessing the website and knowing the actual quote. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 19:05, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
BBC: Why is Armenia targeting civilians in Ganja- Azerbaijan second city.
Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: When it comes to the civilians we have been very vocal about it. For three weeks Stepanakert, the capital of Nagorno-Karabakh, Sushi, Martakert, Martuni, Hadrut and hundreds of villages have been under consistent fire, consistent shelling, consistent bombing by UAVs, Turkish made Bayraktars, air controlled by the Turkish air force. Rocket launchers, Grad, Smerch, tanks, the aviation everything has been falling on those civilian settlements and civilian infrastructure. The situation for our compatriots is absolutely dire. There are many, many displaced people. People are living in shelters. Electricity, water have been destroyed. This much suffering day after day everyday this is happening to our compatriots in Nagorno-Karabakh. Azerbaijan doesn’t understand the language of civility.
BBC: Ok Minister, that was not quite my question. Why are civilians being killed in Ganja?
Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: Hang on. The military are entering our civilian settlements. They are mutilating bodies. They are beheading our compatriots there. This is all recorded. They have recruited terrorists from Syria and from Libya via Turkey and those terrorists are fighting our people. This is all recorded. This is all available to the international community. And those equation marks are absolutely unacceptable. We are again facing alone three enemies- Turkey, Azerbaijan and the foreign terrorist fighters.
BBC: It is being denied, particularly the presence of Syrian fighters. What you said all that justifies firing rockets at civilian areas in Ganja.
Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: I am again saying I am looking after this big damage that is done to our compatriots: the suffering, the enormous suffering to the Armenian people in Nagorno-Karabakh. Again we are facing this alone against those three enemies.
Find a WP:RS source that links these two events as you impliedand I'm still asking for the same thing. Please WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH, I'm not a fan of unconstructive discussions. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 20:25, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
I propose adding that the 2020 bombardment of Stepanakert occurred first to both the header and background. Currently, the Stepanakert bombardment is not directly mentioned at all, and is only alluded to in one line ("...claimed that military facilities permanently located there had been targeting civilians in Stepanakert") which makes it appear as if the bombardment of Stepanakert had not actually happened. In the above discussion, I provided numerous sources (including third party ones) of Artsakh politicians confirming that the Ganja missile attacks were the result of this. Here is an attempted DRN. RfC restarted by -- Steverci ( talk) 03:56, 7 February 2021 (UTC), originally opened by -- Steverci ( talk) 20:49, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
Now, Steverci do you have a source that says- specifically "These attacks are related"? If not, I'm afraid there is nothing to discuss.— CuriousGolden (T· C) 21:34, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Spudlace: Since you are the only third-party that has participated so far, just sending an FYI that the RfC isn't closed yet. -- Steverci ( talk) 03:56, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
To clarify for future reference: since this discussion began, Solavirum has been topic banned from Armenia and Azerbaijan articles and CuriousGolden has been blocked for sockpuppeting and also revealed to have been running a Discord server canvassing group, even though he accused me of bad faith for accusing him of canvassing.
Aside from trying to remove any connection to the Stepanakert shelling, this article is full of WP:OR and WP:NPOV violations. For example, the header parts of "Armenia denied any responsibility" and "the Artsakh Defence Army admitted responsibility" when there is nothing in either source about anything to do with "responsibility". The HRW source doesn't bring up "responsibility" either. The RFERL source also does not make any mention of a missile strike in Kalbajar being a "retaliated" attack for Ganja, which is quite ironic given how hard certain users were brigading to remove any mention of Stepanakert. Another issue with the header: "The attack was one of the first major violations of the humanitarian ceasefire"; a ceasefire can only be broken once, retaliatory attacks against the side that first violated a ceasefire is not also a violation. I will try to clean up this article and remove the original research and POV pushing. -- Steverci ( talk) 00:06, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
This RFC needs to be reworded per WP:RFCNEUTRAL. Bait30 Talk 2 me pls? 15:10, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Steverci: citing sources for additions of categories is not a policy. Especially when the war crime is obvious. There are several times when HRW calls the attack a war crime. HRW's report says:
The laws of war require attackers to issue effective warnings of attacks affecting civilians unless circumstances do not permit. Witnesses to attacks said they were not aware of warnings from Armenian or local Nagorno-Karabakh forces. On October 4, Arayik Harutyunyan, the Nagorno-Karabakh president, issued tweets in English calling on civilians “to avoid inevitable loss” by leaving “large cities,” including Ganja, where military forces would be attacked. Threats of attacks on unspecified targets over an unspecified period, in a language few Azerbaijani civilians can read, were not effective warnings.
This explicitly means that Armenia/NKR didn't follow the laws of war. Another quote from the conclusion section:
International humanitarian law, or the laws of war, applicable to the international armed conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia, prohibits deliberate attacks on civilians or attacks that are indiscriminate or cause disproportionate harm to civilians and civilian objects. Warring parties must take all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize civilian harm, including by refraining from deploying in densely populated areas.
Since I hope you don't deny that this was a deliberate attack on civilians; it's a war crime according to HRW.
Do you think we can't call such deliberate attacks/killings a war crime if some WP:RS hasn't explicitly stated "X is war crime"? If so, then we should probably delete the Azerbaijani war crimes category from Shusha massacre, Siege of Stepanakert and 2020 bombardment of Stepanakert. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 10:02, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Azerbaijani forces created military sites in Ganja without moving the population to safer areas, putting civilians at unnecessary risk. Satellite imagery revealed long-term military sites in the city and forces in populated areas in at least two cases close to the time of attacks. Satellite imagery also showed a large area abutting populated areas in southeastern Ganja with increased military vehicular activity in October.
The use by Armenian and local Nargono-Karabakh forces of military bases and dual-use infrastructure in Stepanakert placed the civilian population unnecessarily at risk.
On September 27, Azerbaijan began air and ground attacks across Nagorno-Karabakh, an escalation in the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia and the local authorities in Nagorno-Karabakh. Fighting continued until November 10, when Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Russia concluded an agreement to end the hostilities.
From September 27 through October 28, Azerbaijani forces conducted strikes on Stepanakert, at times using cluster munitions and Smerch and Grad rockets, which are not capable of precision targeting. Azerbaijani forces attacked Armenian and Nagorno-Karabakh forces based in or around Stepanakert, including at two military bases, one of which is believed to be the headquarters for the local defense forces. Several structures were also military objectives, subject to attack. However, Human Rights Watch found that in the attacks investigated, Armenian and local forces were not deployed nor had set up any significant defensive systems or other weaponry in the city.
Human Rights Watch visited Nagorno-Karabakh in October and November and spoke to 19 civilian residents of Stepanakert, two officials from the local authorities, a nongovernmental organization worker, and four other residents who had fled to Armenia but who were present during the fighting. Human Rights Watch also acquired and analyzed satellite images taken between September 27 and late October that corroborate accounts, photographs, and videos of repeated Azerbaijani air and ground attacks in Stepanakert, including scores of damaged structures and impact sites. Human Rights Watch was able to examine a small number of the attack sites in Stepanakert.
Human Rights Watch found that, in addition to the attacks on military targets, Azerbaijani forces attacked residential areas with inherently indiscriminate weapons and dropped aerial munitions and fired heavy artillery into populated areas that contained no apparent military objectives. Such attacks are indiscriminate, violating the laws of war, because they do not distinguish between civilians and civilian objects and military targets. Warring parties should also refrain from using explosive munitions with wide-area effects in populated areas because they cause both immediate and long-term harm to the civilian population.
-- Steverci ( talk) 03:01, 25 February 2021 (UTC)The closest military target that Human Rights Watch could identify was a military base over 500 meters way. In the absence of a valid military objective, this attack appeared to be indiscriminate.
1 This statement was added by user Steverci on [ this edit]. As I can see from not addressed RfC, DnR and discussions, Steverci added the statement without reaching a consensus.
Here is how he tried to justify his proposed edit, and tbh that justification does not make any sense to me:
Currently, the Stepanakert bombardment is not directly mentioned at all, and is only alluded to in one line ("...claimed that military facilities permanently located there had been targeting civilians in Stepanakert") which makes it appear as if the bombardment of Stepanakert had not actually happened. In the above discussion, I provided numerous sources (including third party ones) of Artsakh politicians confirming that the Ganja missile attacks were the result of this..
2 Also, please be kind to explain your revert. My advice for you, in future, try to explain your reverts to make discussions easier. I am sure that it is not, but your revert with current comments sounds like WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT revert.
The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert."
3 This statement is WP:OR. Collecting together a bunch of sources does not make a point here. Stating "The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing" does not bring any value or meaning." Should we also add something like "The missile attacks happened 30 years after first Karabakh war"? Do you see my point?
4 You reverted with the comment that "Those are not just Armenian sources"
. I read all provided sources yesterday and did it again - it is a purely Armenian explanation/justification of why Ganja was bombed. Do you have another third party source that makes such a conclusion on its own?
Conclusion: This is the Armenian side explanation/justification for the Ganja bombardments. It can be reflected in the article accordingly, but properly. Not the meaningless and WP:OR way it is reflected currently.-- Abrvagl ( talk) 20:28, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
1. The BBC news states the following related material:
-The self-proclaimed authorities there said they hit Ganja's military airport after Azerbaijani forces shelled the region's capital, Stepanakert.
-Azerbaijan says no Ganja military sites were hit. More than 220 people have died since clashes began a week ago.
-Nagorno-Karabakh's authorities said that they had destroyed Ganja's military airport...They said they had acted after Stepanakert was hit by missiles and alleged the Ganja facility had been used by Azerbaijani forces to launch attacks on civilian areas.
-Armenpress quoted the separatist region's leader, Arayik Harutyunyan, as warning that "from now on the military facilities permanently deployed in Azerbaijan's major cities are legitimate targets of the defence army".
2. The mediamax.az states the following related material:
-“Come to your senses. We will continue striking other cities and if we have to, we will strike facilities in larger cities. The strike on Ganja was a warning one. I have ordered to stop the strikes for some time, giving time to Azerbaijan. Keep civilians away,” he said.
3. The telegraph does not state any material to support the statement that "Ganja was shelled due to Azerbaijan shelled Stepanakert".
4. The mfa.am does not state any related material. Zohrab Mnatsakanyan here was two times asked "Why is Armenia targeting civilians in Ganja- Azerbaijan second city?", but Zohrab dodged the questions and did not give a direct answer to them, instead he went to Whataboutism.
Analysis:
Obviously non of the provided sources support the statement "The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert.". Statement if-self does not bring any finished meaning and value to the article. With the same success we can state something line "The missile attacks happened 30 years after 1st Karabakh War"'. This statement has a WP:UNDUE weight.
Moreover, the information provided in the sources already covered in the article's background and First attack section.
Moreover, this edit was added by user Steverci although no consensus was reached on it. I am not sure which user was banned you talking about, but the number of editors ( Golden and Solavirum ) , had unsolved concerns about this edit.
Moreover, all of the provided applicable sources are either primary or quoting primary sources. There is no secondary source available. The statement "The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert." is a WP:OR.
Moreover, even volunteer in the DRN also supported that this statement is WP:OR and has no place in the article.
Conslusion: I removing the statement. You can revert it back, and we can take it to DNR or RfC or wherever you want, but I strongly recommend not to, as this once gone through all of that and majority of editors reached the consensus that this statement has no place in the article.
Regards, -- Abrvagl ( talk) 19:19, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
"Discuss the changes you would like to make with this VIP, perhaps using other forms of Wikipedia dispute resolution as needed, and reach an agreement". Steverci added a statement to the article without reaching a consensus. Material added to the article without consensus, while knowing that number of editors opposed to that, and left unnoticed for a while, does not make the finished cycle of BRD, neither it means that consensus is reached.
I know you think you’re probably right in your mind, but it’s not the case. Please don’t state your own opinions about policies as facts.. Not sure what you mean, but I do not state my own opinion about policies. What I stated above are in line with Wikipedia policies. I will not repeat it again, as explained everything in detail already. The statement that we are talking about is not only WP:OR, but original research based on the WP:PRIMARY sources, which is directly against Wikipedia policies.
as I said, there's nothing debatable about the bombing of Stepanakert happening first, it's just a known fact.- Yes it is a known fact, also it is a known fact that first Karabakh War happened before the bombardment of Stepanakert, and we wont include neither of these statements unless there reliable source attributing them to the bombardment of the Ganja. That is it. Abrvagl ( talk) 07:11, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
Yes it is a known fact, also it is a known fact that first Karabakh War happened before the bombardment of Stepanakert...
Already explained there are Armenian sources attributing to Stepanakert and third party sources covering these sources,
you have no consensus.By the way. Firstly statement was added to the article without consensus. Secondly, no consensus required to remove something that openly violates Wikipedia policies. I am giving you chance to explain yourself. More than 2 weeks passed now, and you still neither answered to concerns I raised, nor provided any solid justification for your revert. Please Zani, take your time to justify your position. Abrvagl ( talk) 20:27, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
The conflict zone in the fighting between Armenia and Azerbaijan continued to expand, as Azerbaijani forces have hit the de facto capital of Nagorno-Karabakh, Stepanakert, and Armenian forces responded by hitting Azerbaijan’s second-largest city, Ganja.and refers to the already provided sources, content of which properly illustrated in the article and to the Harutyunyan's words:
Harutyunyan said that the attack on Ganja was a “warning shot” and said that the attacks on Azerbaijani cities would cease “for some time”.
The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert.. The statement is still WP:OR/SYNTH. Abrvagl ( talk) 19:44, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert.this sentence brings no value to the article and have no due weight. What is the difference how many days after it happened?
To summarize my point: ZaniGiovanni,
"The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert." - Initially provided sources do not support the statement at all. This statement is WP:OR/WP:SYNTH and not WP:NEUTRAL.
The Eurasianet article, which was provided later, just partially supports the statement. It only considers the first hit to the Ganja (there were 4 of them). How can we state that all attacks were in response to the Stepanakert bombardment based on that?
Moreover, the Eurasianet article was published on the 04 October 2020, on day when Ganja was hit for the first time. I doubt that journalist has enough time and information to make accurate claims. Many reports from experts and other sources do not share the eurasianet article's view. HRW, amnesty, amnesty2, oc-media and France24 share view that both Armenia and Azerbaijan carried out disproportionate and indiscriminate attacks.
Furthermore, the Eurasia article is not accurate. The article states, "strikes on Stepanakert began on October 2" - False. The attacks on Stepanakert started on 27 Sep 2020 [7]. Since 27 Sep 2022 (before Ganja was hit) Horadiz, Terter cities, and number of villages in Dashkesan and Goranboy regions of Azerbaijan were hit. Also, many Azerbaijan cities were hit during and after Ganja bombardment. What makes only a hit to Ganja in response to Stepanakert?? Ignoring the majority of sources and cherry-picking information one source is not an improvement and not accurate.
I was about to propose consensus to include information about targeting the Ganja airport to the article, but found that it is already in the article: "Artsakh denied targeting residential areas, but rather military targets, especially Ganja International Airport,[27] and Arayik Harutyunyan, the president of the de facto Republic of Artsakh, claimed that military facilities permanently located there had been targeting civilians in Stepanakert using Polonez and Smerch missiles;[16]"
Conclusion: Saying that bombardments of civilian areas of Ganja, which resulted in the death of civilians, was in response to Stepanakert civilian areas bombardment, which also resulted in the death of civilians, is an unsourced attempt to justify war crimes and insert of the wartime ethnic retribution logic into article. It is gross violation of WP:WEIGHT/WP:Neutral and there no place for that in Wikipedia. -- Abrvagl ( talk) 09:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
ZaniGiovanni, after reading my last reply, do you still have any objections? And if you have any, then please explain? Thanks Abrvagl ( talk) 15:10, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Should the following statement be introduced in the article?
"The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert."
Note: Enter Option 1 or Option 2, followed by a brief statement, in the Survey. Do not reply to other users in the Survey. Back-and-forth discussion may be conducted in the Discussion section. Detailed discussion on the topic can be found here Talk:2020 Ganja missile attacks#The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began. -- Abrvagl ( talk) 17:54, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
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Can someone help me out with this? It surely needs some copyediting. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 22:12, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
How many attacks have the ADA admitted? Johncdraper ( talk) 12:38, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Well, I don't think we can find lotsa sources about it. But the 4 October attack struck Aziz Aliyev Street, which was known as the Armenian quarter before Azerbaijan's independence. They even found an ethnic Armenian among the injured civilians 1 2. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 16:00, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Alright. I was able to use official and third-party sources (Bild, Hikmat Hajiyev etc.) to geolocate where the missiles hit. Here is the list:
Can someone help with converting these to the map? --► Sincerely: Sola Virum
I am placing POV tag until issues resolved. Almost all articles refer to allegation by Azerbaijan. Have there been any independent news agencies that have provided proof of these claims? Armenia has denied almost all of these allegations. Expertwikiguy ( talk) 21:58, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
@
Mhmk97: We do not have to insert "allegedly" into the statements The Ganja ballistic missile attacks were four separate missile attacks
or The first attack took place on 4 October, killing one civilian and wounding more than 30
. There is not doubt over whether an attack occurred. The uncertainty comes when it's time to discuss who fired the missiles, and that is properly described in the third paragraph of the lead: Azerbaijan accused Armenia of the attacks, but Armenia denied any responsibility
. Introducing "allegedly" into the first two sentences makes it sound like there is some doubt as to whether missiles even struck Ganja, which is not the case.
GorillaWarfare
(talk) 02:39, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
What is the notability of this, besides the fact that media has written about it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:1085:D560:699A:511E:2924:3992 ( talk) 09:54, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
This page should not be speedily deleted because this appears to be a drive-by template by an unregistered user. Add: reverted as vandalism and posted appropriate template to user's Talk. Johncdraper ( talk) 09:56, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
This article has been on many radars since yesterday, especially in Armenia. People didn't liked an article about a human tragedy, and have been making conspiracy theories, mistakenly citing Wikipedia's server time (which uses UTC+0, four hours behind the current time). And an English-Armenian journalist, Onnik J. Krikorian have commented on the issue. In the meanwhile, I was able to put some light into it. But, nevertheless, be cautious. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 10:06, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
This cite's author metadata is incorrectly populated. Johncdraper ( talk) 12:53, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
This article may require semi-protection? Johncdraper ( talk) 16:05, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
I have reworded it. Hemşinli çocuk 14:40, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
On 4th of October, before the two major attacks on Ganja of 10th and 17th of October, the president of the de facto Republic of Artsakh Arayik Harutyunyan issued two warnings ( here and here) to the civilians of Azerbaijan. This was after what he claimed was the use of "Polonez and Smerch multiple launch rocket systems" against Stepanakert. His words were "From now on, military facilities permanently located in major cities of Azerbaijan became the targets of the Defense Army. I call on the people of Azerbaijan to leave these cities as soon as possible to avoid possible casualties.". In the second warning he mentions calling off an attack on Ganja last minute to avoid civilian casualties, saying that "Azerbaijan can stop before it is too late". I think the fact of the warning has to be mentioned in the background section of this article -- Sataralynd ( talk) 09:05, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
Summary: as no one is opposed to the addition and the article is open to editing, I just added the above bold text. Thanks for your comments.-- Sataralynd ( talk) 01:24, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
@ E badalyan: Addressing your edits:
1) You're adding an "According to Azerbaijani side" to a sentence stating on what day the attack happened. The date of the attack isn't under question.
2) How is "It was one of the first serious attacks in the conflict outside the Nagorno-Karabakh region" an opinion? What other large cities outside of the disputed/occupied territories do you know that has been bombed severely? — CuriousGolden (talk· contrib) 20:46, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus, discussion already continued in new RM below. ( non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs ( talk) 22:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
2020 Ganja ballistic missile attacks → Ganja ballistic missile attacks – It's the first time Ganja was hit by a missile, so the "2020" part is irrelevant and I don't see any reason why the "ballistic" part must be specified in the title, making it unnecessarily longer. — CuriousGolden (talk· contrib) 14:34, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
EDIT: I have changed the move request name to Ganja ballistic missile attacks per the message below. — CuriousGolden (talk· contrib) 10:14, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Solavirum:, despite the discussion that is ongoing here about the topic of the warning to the civilians of Ganja, you have unilaterally removed again the warning description from the Background section of the article stating 'not "background" if it happened during the attack' when I have challenged that position on your talk page and you didn't answered to that challenge. You have disengaged from that discussion in breach of policy, and just went ahead and made the reversion for the third time now, without discussion-- Sataralynd ( talk) 21:32, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
@ CuriousGolden: I see you have just reverted my edit on the background section, changing significantly the intended meaning. Our job is not to reinterpret the content of the source WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH but to present them as they are. Removing the reference to the targeting of civilians in Stepanakert, which according to the source was the reason for the warning is not justified. You have done this substantial change despite there being two talks here on the topic, and you were engaged in one of them. Could you please 1) revert the change 2) outline your reasoning behind the intended change (if you still want to make it)? Thanks -- Sataralynd ( talk) 04:35, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Despite numerous warnings, the Azerbaijani terrorist army continues targeting the civilian population in Stepanakert, using "Polonez" and "Smerch" multiple launch rocket systems. From now on, military facilities permanently located in major cities of Azerbaijan became the targets of the Defense Army."
1) changed de facto to self proclaimed 2) removed the mention that Stepanakert has been targetted by deleting been targeting civilians in Stepanakert, which was the reason for the warning 3) removed the type of weapons, using Polonez and Smerch missiles as you claim there is no proof they were in Ganja I have reverted all the three changes because you didn't explain the first two, and the word "claimed" about the weapons and them being in ganja is there to highlight that it is a claim. Further here is a source about the claim of this weapon use and no one expects the other side to know from where each weapon is coming. If you have a denial from the Azerbaijan government on this topic, bring in the source and add the words which Azerbaijan denied at the end-- Sataralynd ( talk) 22:22, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
@
CuriousGolden: regarding 1) suggest to remove both terms as they are both mentioned in the previous paragraph and the intention of the paragraph is to talk about the warning and not the legal status of RoA. 2) and 3) please see
here where he is clearly stating that civilians in Artsakh have been targeted by military facilities in Ganja using cluster bombs, and for self defence purposes he is attacking Ganja and calling the civilian population to leave it, again on the 4th of October. I agree there is no explicit mention about Smerch and Polonez missiles coming from Ganja itself so we don't have to call these weapons in the article. But, there is mention of cluster munitions from Ganja targeting civilians in Artsakh and as their use were proven by Azerbaijan in Stepanakert so need to mention it (
here - so we have claim + third party evidence)
If you are ok, I'll make these changes-- Sataralynd ( talk) 21:57, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
"President of the unrecognised Republic of Artsakh announced that he would bomb Ganja because of Azerbaijan's shelling of Stepanakert."
1) I suggest we use "self-proclaimed de facto" and put this matter to bed. It presents both what Artsakh sees itself, as well as its international status 2) Fine about Stepanakert being left out. But, it is very clear that the sources present a warning to the civilians of Ganja to leave the city. This is not a matter of interpretation as you claim though I'm sure Azerbaijan would say so. I'm happy to take it to dispute resolution if you disagree because it is going around in circles. This is to be mentioned in the background section because the warning, albeit (arguably) coincided with the first attack, happened before the three others, but more importantly before the two most deadly attacks on 10th and 17th of October In light of the above, I suggest we rephrase as follows: On 4th of October, Arayik Harutyunyan, the self-proclaimed de facto Republic of Artsakh's president, issued a warning to the Azerbaijani army and civilians for the latter to leave Ganja, claiming that military facilities permanently located there have been targeting civilians in Artsakh. Plase note that the language used is much stronger, but I am choosing to redact it in order to present the content of the message, as well as maintain the NPOV -- Sataralynd ( talk) 23:44, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
On 4th of October, after the first attack, Arayik Harutyunyan, the self-proclaimed de facto Republic of Artsakh's president, issued a warning to the Azerbaijani army and civilians for the latter to leave Ganja, claiming that military facilities were permanently located in the city.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:15, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved
Five support !votes (including the nom) versus one oppose !vote shows a clear consensus to move in terms of raw numbers. Looking at the arguments a clear invocation of
WP:CRITERIA is made for support (particularly that the new title is more precise and shorter) but not much in the way of policy is cited against that.(
non-admin closure)
FOARP (
talk) 20:30, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
2020 Ganja ballistic missile attacks →
2020 Ganja missile attacks – The use of ballistic missiles in Ganja has not been confirmed by international media or reliable third party source. Sincerely,
Գարիկ Ավագյան (
talk) 18:39, 7 November 2020 (UTC) —Relisting.
BegbertBiggs (
talk) 22:45, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
Support there has been no evidence presented on the use of ballistic missiles by Armenia or NK forces. The AI piece that @ CuriousGolden: mentions doesn't make a specific claim about who used it-- Sataralynd ( talk) 19:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Solavirum: which claim is that? you need to provide sources as the title you are advocating has an extra piece of information (i.e. the use of ballistic missiles) without any evidence-- Sataralynd ( talk) 02:48, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. ( non-admin closure) Vpab15 ( talk) 23:42, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
2020 Ganja missile attacks →
Ganja missile attacks – There have been no attacks on this city before, therefore there's no need to specify the year by adding "2020". In addition, none of the
WP:RS specify "2020" in their titles to describe the event (
BBC,
France24,
Al Jazeera). —
CuriousGolden
(T·
C) 19:20, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Zohrab Mnatsakanyan confirmed this was retaliation for Azerbaijan shelling civilian areas in Stepanakert. [1] -- Steverci ( talk) 17:57, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
You cannot visit www.mfa.am right now because the website uses HSTS. Network errors and attacks are usually temporary, so this page will probably work later. This is preventing me from accessing the website and knowing the actual quote. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 19:05, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
BBC: Why is Armenia targeting civilians in Ganja- Azerbaijan second city.
Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: When it comes to the civilians we have been very vocal about it. For three weeks Stepanakert, the capital of Nagorno-Karabakh, Sushi, Martakert, Martuni, Hadrut and hundreds of villages have been under consistent fire, consistent shelling, consistent bombing by UAVs, Turkish made Bayraktars, air controlled by the Turkish air force. Rocket launchers, Grad, Smerch, tanks, the aviation everything has been falling on those civilian settlements and civilian infrastructure. The situation for our compatriots is absolutely dire. There are many, many displaced people. People are living in shelters. Electricity, water have been destroyed. This much suffering day after day everyday this is happening to our compatriots in Nagorno-Karabakh. Azerbaijan doesn’t understand the language of civility.
BBC: Ok Minister, that was not quite my question. Why are civilians being killed in Ganja?
Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: Hang on. The military are entering our civilian settlements. They are mutilating bodies. They are beheading our compatriots there. This is all recorded. They have recruited terrorists from Syria and from Libya via Turkey and those terrorists are fighting our people. This is all recorded. This is all available to the international community. And those equation marks are absolutely unacceptable. We are again facing alone three enemies- Turkey, Azerbaijan and the foreign terrorist fighters.
BBC: It is being denied, particularly the presence of Syrian fighters. What you said all that justifies firing rockets at civilian areas in Ganja.
Zohrab Mnatsakanyan: I am again saying I am looking after this big damage that is done to our compatriots: the suffering, the enormous suffering to the Armenian people in Nagorno-Karabakh. Again we are facing this alone against those three enemies.
Find a WP:RS source that links these two events as you impliedand I'm still asking for the same thing. Please WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH, I'm not a fan of unconstructive discussions. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 20:25, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
I propose adding that the 2020 bombardment of Stepanakert occurred first to both the header and background. Currently, the Stepanakert bombardment is not directly mentioned at all, and is only alluded to in one line ("...claimed that military facilities permanently located there had been targeting civilians in Stepanakert") which makes it appear as if the bombardment of Stepanakert had not actually happened. In the above discussion, I provided numerous sources (including third party ones) of Artsakh politicians confirming that the Ganja missile attacks were the result of this. Here is an attempted DRN. RfC restarted by -- Steverci ( talk) 03:56, 7 February 2021 (UTC), originally opened by -- Steverci ( talk) 20:49, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
Now, Steverci do you have a source that says- specifically "These attacks are related"? If not, I'm afraid there is nothing to discuss.— CuriousGolden (T· C) 21:34, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Spudlace: Since you are the only third-party that has participated so far, just sending an FYI that the RfC isn't closed yet. -- Steverci ( talk) 03:56, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
To clarify for future reference: since this discussion began, Solavirum has been topic banned from Armenia and Azerbaijan articles and CuriousGolden has been blocked for sockpuppeting and also revealed to have been running a Discord server canvassing group, even though he accused me of bad faith for accusing him of canvassing.
Aside from trying to remove any connection to the Stepanakert shelling, this article is full of WP:OR and WP:NPOV violations. For example, the header parts of "Armenia denied any responsibility" and "the Artsakh Defence Army admitted responsibility" when there is nothing in either source about anything to do with "responsibility". The HRW source doesn't bring up "responsibility" either. The RFERL source also does not make any mention of a missile strike in Kalbajar being a "retaliated" attack for Ganja, which is quite ironic given how hard certain users were brigading to remove any mention of Stepanakert. Another issue with the header: "The attack was one of the first major violations of the humanitarian ceasefire"; a ceasefire can only be broken once, retaliatory attacks against the side that first violated a ceasefire is not also a violation. I will try to clean up this article and remove the original research and POV pushing. -- Steverci ( talk) 00:06, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
This RFC needs to be reworded per WP:RFCNEUTRAL. Bait30 Talk 2 me pls? 15:10, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Steverci: citing sources for additions of categories is not a policy. Especially when the war crime is obvious. There are several times when HRW calls the attack a war crime. HRW's report says:
The laws of war require attackers to issue effective warnings of attacks affecting civilians unless circumstances do not permit. Witnesses to attacks said they were not aware of warnings from Armenian or local Nagorno-Karabakh forces. On October 4, Arayik Harutyunyan, the Nagorno-Karabakh president, issued tweets in English calling on civilians “to avoid inevitable loss” by leaving “large cities,” including Ganja, where military forces would be attacked. Threats of attacks on unspecified targets over an unspecified period, in a language few Azerbaijani civilians can read, were not effective warnings.
This explicitly means that Armenia/NKR didn't follow the laws of war. Another quote from the conclusion section:
International humanitarian law, or the laws of war, applicable to the international armed conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia, prohibits deliberate attacks on civilians or attacks that are indiscriminate or cause disproportionate harm to civilians and civilian objects. Warring parties must take all feasible precautions to avoid or minimize civilian harm, including by refraining from deploying in densely populated areas.
Since I hope you don't deny that this was a deliberate attack on civilians; it's a war crime according to HRW.
Do you think we can't call such deliberate attacks/killings a war crime if some WP:RS hasn't explicitly stated "X is war crime"? If so, then we should probably delete the Azerbaijani war crimes category from Shusha massacre, Siege of Stepanakert and 2020 bombardment of Stepanakert. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 10:02, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Azerbaijani forces created military sites in Ganja without moving the population to safer areas, putting civilians at unnecessary risk. Satellite imagery revealed long-term military sites in the city and forces in populated areas in at least two cases close to the time of attacks. Satellite imagery also showed a large area abutting populated areas in southeastern Ganja with increased military vehicular activity in October.
The use by Armenian and local Nargono-Karabakh forces of military bases and dual-use infrastructure in Stepanakert placed the civilian population unnecessarily at risk.
On September 27, Azerbaijan began air and ground attacks across Nagorno-Karabakh, an escalation in the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia and the local authorities in Nagorno-Karabakh. Fighting continued until November 10, when Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Russia concluded an agreement to end the hostilities.
From September 27 through October 28, Azerbaijani forces conducted strikes on Stepanakert, at times using cluster munitions and Smerch and Grad rockets, which are not capable of precision targeting. Azerbaijani forces attacked Armenian and Nagorno-Karabakh forces based in or around Stepanakert, including at two military bases, one of which is believed to be the headquarters for the local defense forces. Several structures were also military objectives, subject to attack. However, Human Rights Watch found that in the attacks investigated, Armenian and local forces were not deployed nor had set up any significant defensive systems or other weaponry in the city.
Human Rights Watch visited Nagorno-Karabakh in October and November and spoke to 19 civilian residents of Stepanakert, two officials from the local authorities, a nongovernmental organization worker, and four other residents who had fled to Armenia but who were present during the fighting. Human Rights Watch also acquired and analyzed satellite images taken between September 27 and late October that corroborate accounts, photographs, and videos of repeated Azerbaijani air and ground attacks in Stepanakert, including scores of damaged structures and impact sites. Human Rights Watch was able to examine a small number of the attack sites in Stepanakert.
Human Rights Watch found that, in addition to the attacks on military targets, Azerbaijani forces attacked residential areas with inherently indiscriminate weapons and dropped aerial munitions and fired heavy artillery into populated areas that contained no apparent military objectives. Such attacks are indiscriminate, violating the laws of war, because they do not distinguish between civilians and civilian objects and military targets. Warring parties should also refrain from using explosive munitions with wide-area effects in populated areas because they cause both immediate and long-term harm to the civilian population.
-- Steverci ( talk) 03:01, 25 February 2021 (UTC)The closest military target that Human Rights Watch could identify was a military base over 500 meters way. In the absence of a valid military objective, this attack appeared to be indiscriminate.
1 This statement was added by user Steverci on [ this edit]. As I can see from not addressed RfC, DnR and discussions, Steverci added the statement without reaching a consensus.
Here is how he tried to justify his proposed edit, and tbh that justification does not make any sense to me:
Currently, the Stepanakert bombardment is not directly mentioned at all, and is only alluded to in one line ("...claimed that military facilities permanently located there had been targeting civilians in Stepanakert") which makes it appear as if the bombardment of Stepanakert had not actually happened. In the above discussion, I provided numerous sources (including third party ones) of Artsakh politicians confirming that the Ganja missile attacks were the result of this..
2 Also, please be kind to explain your revert. My advice for you, in future, try to explain your reverts to make discussions easier. I am sure that it is not, but your revert with current comments sounds like WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT revert.
The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert."
3 This statement is WP:OR. Collecting together a bunch of sources does not make a point here. Stating "The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing" does not bring any value or meaning." Should we also add something like "The missile attacks happened 30 years after first Karabakh war"? Do you see my point?
4 You reverted with the comment that "Those are not just Armenian sources"
. I read all provided sources yesterday and did it again - it is a purely Armenian explanation/justification of why Ganja was bombed. Do you have another third party source that makes such a conclusion on its own?
Conclusion: This is the Armenian side explanation/justification for the Ganja bombardments. It can be reflected in the article accordingly, but properly. Not the meaningless and WP:OR way it is reflected currently.-- Abrvagl ( talk) 20:28, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
1. The BBC news states the following related material:
-The self-proclaimed authorities there said they hit Ganja's military airport after Azerbaijani forces shelled the region's capital, Stepanakert.
-Azerbaijan says no Ganja military sites were hit. More than 220 people have died since clashes began a week ago.
-Nagorno-Karabakh's authorities said that they had destroyed Ganja's military airport...They said they had acted after Stepanakert was hit by missiles and alleged the Ganja facility had been used by Azerbaijani forces to launch attacks on civilian areas.
-Armenpress quoted the separatist region's leader, Arayik Harutyunyan, as warning that "from now on the military facilities permanently deployed in Azerbaijan's major cities are legitimate targets of the defence army".
2. The mediamax.az states the following related material:
-“Come to your senses. We will continue striking other cities and if we have to, we will strike facilities in larger cities. The strike on Ganja was a warning one. I have ordered to stop the strikes for some time, giving time to Azerbaijan. Keep civilians away,” he said.
3. The telegraph does not state any material to support the statement that "Ganja was shelled due to Azerbaijan shelled Stepanakert".
4. The mfa.am does not state any related material. Zohrab Mnatsakanyan here was two times asked "Why is Armenia targeting civilians in Ganja- Azerbaijan second city?", but Zohrab dodged the questions and did not give a direct answer to them, instead he went to Whataboutism.
Analysis:
Obviously non of the provided sources support the statement "The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert.". Statement if-self does not bring any finished meaning and value to the article. With the same success we can state something line "The missile attacks happened 30 years after 1st Karabakh War"'. This statement has a WP:UNDUE weight.
Moreover, the information provided in the sources already covered in the article's background and First attack section.
Moreover, this edit was added by user Steverci although no consensus was reached on it. I am not sure which user was banned you talking about, but the number of editors ( Golden and Solavirum ) , had unsolved concerns about this edit.
Moreover, all of the provided applicable sources are either primary or quoting primary sources. There is no secondary source available. The statement "The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert." is a WP:OR.
Moreover, even volunteer in the DRN also supported that this statement is WP:OR and has no place in the article.
Conslusion: I removing the statement. You can revert it back, and we can take it to DNR or RfC or wherever you want, but I strongly recommend not to, as this once gone through all of that and majority of editors reached the consensus that this statement has no place in the article.
Regards, -- Abrvagl ( talk) 19:19, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
"Discuss the changes you would like to make with this VIP, perhaps using other forms of Wikipedia dispute resolution as needed, and reach an agreement". Steverci added a statement to the article without reaching a consensus. Material added to the article without consensus, while knowing that number of editors opposed to that, and left unnoticed for a while, does not make the finished cycle of BRD, neither it means that consensus is reached.
I know you think you’re probably right in your mind, but it’s not the case. Please don’t state your own opinions about policies as facts.. Not sure what you mean, but I do not state my own opinion about policies. What I stated above are in line with Wikipedia policies. I will not repeat it again, as explained everything in detail already. The statement that we are talking about is not only WP:OR, but original research based on the WP:PRIMARY sources, which is directly against Wikipedia policies.
as I said, there's nothing debatable about the bombing of Stepanakert happening first, it's just a known fact.- Yes it is a known fact, also it is a known fact that first Karabakh War happened before the bombardment of Stepanakert, and we wont include neither of these statements unless there reliable source attributing them to the bombardment of the Ganja. That is it. Abrvagl ( talk) 07:11, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
Yes it is a known fact, also it is a known fact that first Karabakh War happened before the bombardment of Stepanakert...
Already explained there are Armenian sources attributing to Stepanakert and third party sources covering these sources,
you have no consensus.By the way. Firstly statement was added to the article without consensus. Secondly, no consensus required to remove something that openly violates Wikipedia policies. I am giving you chance to explain yourself. More than 2 weeks passed now, and you still neither answered to concerns I raised, nor provided any solid justification for your revert. Please Zani, take your time to justify your position. Abrvagl ( talk) 20:27, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
The conflict zone in the fighting between Armenia and Azerbaijan continued to expand, as Azerbaijani forces have hit the de facto capital of Nagorno-Karabakh, Stepanakert, and Armenian forces responded by hitting Azerbaijan’s second-largest city, Ganja.and refers to the already provided sources, content of which properly illustrated in the article and to the Harutyunyan's words:
Harutyunyan said that the attack on Ganja was a “warning shot” and said that the attacks on Azerbaijani cities would cease “for some time”.
The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert.. The statement is still WP:OR/SYNTH. Abrvagl ( talk) 19:44, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert.this sentence brings no value to the article and have no due weight. What is the difference how many days after it happened?
To summarize my point: ZaniGiovanni,
"The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert." - Initially provided sources do not support the statement at all. This statement is WP:OR/WP:SYNTH and not WP:NEUTRAL.
The Eurasianet article, which was provided later, just partially supports the statement. It only considers the first hit to the Ganja (there were 4 of them). How can we state that all attacks were in response to the Stepanakert bombardment based on that?
Moreover, the Eurasianet article was published on the 04 October 2020, on day when Ganja was hit for the first time. I doubt that journalist has enough time and information to make accurate claims. Many reports from experts and other sources do not share the eurasianet article's view. HRW, amnesty, amnesty2, oc-media and France24 share view that both Armenia and Azerbaijan carried out disproportionate and indiscriminate attacks.
Furthermore, the Eurasia article is not accurate. The article states, "strikes on Stepanakert began on October 2" - False. The attacks on Stepanakert started on 27 Sep 2020 [7]. Since 27 Sep 2022 (before Ganja was hit) Horadiz, Terter cities, and number of villages in Dashkesan and Goranboy regions of Azerbaijan were hit. Also, many Azerbaijan cities were hit during and after Ganja bombardment. What makes only a hit to Ganja in response to Stepanakert?? Ignoring the majority of sources and cherry-picking information one source is not an improvement and not accurate.
I was about to propose consensus to include information about targeting the Ganja airport to the article, but found that it is already in the article: "Artsakh denied targeting residential areas, but rather military targets, especially Ganja International Airport,[27] and Arayik Harutyunyan, the president of the de facto Republic of Artsakh, claimed that military facilities permanently located there had been targeting civilians in Stepanakert using Polonez and Smerch missiles;[16]"
Conclusion: Saying that bombardments of civilian areas of Ganja, which resulted in the death of civilians, was in response to Stepanakert civilian areas bombardment, which also resulted in the death of civilians, is an unsourced attempt to justify war crimes and insert of the wartime ethnic retribution logic into article. It is gross violation of WP:WEIGHT/WP:Neutral and there no place for that in Wikipedia. -- Abrvagl ( talk) 09:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
ZaniGiovanni, after reading my last reply, do you still have any objections? And if you have any, then please explain? Thanks Abrvagl ( talk) 15:10, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Should the following statement be introduced in the article?
"The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began firing cluster bombs and missiles against Armenian civilian areas in Stepanakert."
Note: Enter Option 1 or Option 2, followed by a brief statement, in the Survey. Do not reply to other users in the Survey. Back-and-forth discussion may be conducted in the Discussion section. Detailed discussion on the topic can be found here Talk:2020 Ganja missile attacks#The missile attacks happened one week after Azerbaijan began. -- Abrvagl ( talk) 17:54, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
.