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This article is written in Hong Kong English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 1 November 2019. The result of the move review was procedural close. |
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 26 October 2019. The result of the move review was procedural close. |
The result of the move request was: No consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre ( talk) 01:14, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
(Involved editor) Post close comment, User:香蕉糖 is a confirmed sock of Angelalive. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Angelalive. Matthew hk ( talk) 09:47, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
2019 Prince Edward station attack → ? – The current title , 2019 Prince Edward station attack is violating WP:NPOV. May be "31 August incident" is more NPOV but it seem a direct transliteration from Chinese, thus i doubt it is the common name in English. The context of the incident, is, there are civil conflict between black shirt protesters and armed (with axe) "anti-protesters" which "anti-protesters" use axe to attack and protester gave return blow. And then police arrived and accused by media that, they indiscriminate attack the citizen in the wrong train carriage as part of their arrest (thus WP:BLPCRIME applies, it should use "suspect", "accused " wording instead of firm wording), plus accusation of killing citizen in the process. The only more widely accepted fact would be those injured were sent to hospital a few hours after the incident. Thus, "attack" wording is not appropriate, "terrorist attack" even more not appropriate, but i am not sure what they are using in English media to describe the event. Matthew hk ( talk) 12:24, 7 October 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Sceptre ( talk) 18:04, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
A primary locus of this weekend’s demonstrations has been Prince Edward Station in Mong Kok, where riot officers charged into a waiting train car during mass protests on Aug. 31, beating four people with batons and dousing them in pepper spray.[1]
Aug. 31 - CCTV footage shows footage of police beating protesters on a train at Prince Edward metro station in Kowloon district as they cowered on the floor.[2], and CNN
At least 51 people were arrested in the streets and in the subway, police said on Sunday. Video footage from Prince Edward subway station in Kowloon showed officers chasing and hitting individuals with batons as they made the arrests. Arrestees have been accused of "participating in unauthorized assembly," "criminal damage," and other charges.[3] Matthew hk ( talk) 02:50, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
The ‘831’ Prince Edward MTR incident proves Hong Kong urgently needs Access to Information reform[4]. and their news reporting
Fire dept. says recording of Aug 31 MTR incident was within normal practice, condemns logbook leak[5] (bold by myself) Matthew hk ( talk) 02:55, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
Medics delayed by Hong Kong police officer in Prince Edward MTR incident: Fire service. Matthew hk ( talk) 06:06, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject.. Please brought url of newspaper articles to prove overwhelmingly they are using "attack" wording. Matthew hk ( talk) 18:35, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
a violent police clearance of a subway stationin the main body or
police raidin the headline. [8] Matthew hk ( talk) 18:29, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: There is no consensus to move this article, and it should remain at its present title for the timebeing.( non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 10:32, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
2019 Prince Edward station attack →
31 August Prince Edward station incident – Simple.
WP:NOTAFORUM,
WP:NOTAVOTE.
WP:BLPCRIME, and related
Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions#Arguments without arguments despite this is RM.
WP:Article title stated article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject.
And there is no RS (Opinion articles are not RS) stated "attack" wording. Thus the article title "2019 Prince Edward station attack" fails many of the criteria. See above
#Requested move 7 October 2019 section of such "discussion" and blatant voting by SPA as well as what are appeared in English language newspaper.
If you want Chinese source, they did not use "attack" wording either for most of the media except facebook propaganda by the protester and Apple Daily, which the former is not RS and the latter is criticized very often for their passionate wording, tabloid journalism and it was well known for getting low score in the opinion poll on creditability by CUHK (see [9]). Other survey by Reuters ranked Apple 13th. [10] Matthew hk ( talk) 02:28, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
So pick all the wording from the newspaper:
721及831事件for 2019 Yuen Long attack and "2019 Prince Edward station incident", ( [11]) which 事件 = incident in the headline. In the main body, 7-21 incident they used the wording "721元朗西鐵站白衣人襲擊事件" = "21 July Yuen Long West Rail Station, white-shirted men attacks" which is similar to the current article title in en-wiki. While the long title used for 8-31 incident, they used "
831太子港鐵站警方執法行動" = "31 August Prince Edward station police clearance/raid" (法 = law, 行動 = action, 執 = pick, so you can't have a direct transliteration)
831太子站事件
831 太子站事件
831事件[18].
8.31太子站衝突疑團[19] = "Questions/Rumour/Uncertainty in 31 August Prince Edward station conflict"
831事件[20]
8月31日警員到多個港鐵站進行搜捕,期間爆發混亂[21], while 混亂 = chaos and 搜捕 = arrest, but not other wording
8.31太子站事件[22]
8.31 太子站警方濫暴案= case of abusive arrests on 31 August Prince Edward station. 濫 may be translated to excessive or other similar context
港鐵太子站8月31日衝突= MTR Prince Edward station 31 August conflict.
The list would be too long thus skipping some smaller in scale online publish-only news website and Chinese-government owned, HK based newspaper. Matthew hk ( talk) 02:28, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
(edit 05:26, 27 October 2019 (UTC): add back the list of Eng news article from the first RM:
Douglas Tsang Tsz-ming, 30, one of the protesters at Prince Edward, said he was there over the August 31 incident, in which police chased demonstrators into the station and went after them on trains, resulting in injuries. Protesters have accused police of indiscriminately beating commuters, while the force said its officers were targeting those who had changed out of their trademark black outfits to blend in with passengers.
Aug 31 MTR incident...
On Tuesday, Civic Party lawmaker Alvin Yeung presented a logbook relating to an incident where baton-wielding police stormed Prince Edward MTR station, deploying pepper spray and making arrests.
Prince Edward MTR incident...
Riot police had stormed trains at Prince Edward MTR station in Mong Kok, making several arrests and deploying pepper spray after protesters rushed into the station on the night of Aug 31. The incident has been in the spotlight after rumours circulated online that three protesters died during the police operation - a claim the authorities have repeatedly denied.Matthew hk ( talk) 05:26, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Ping @ Paine Ellsworth: who reverted the bold move. How controversial it is for "incident" instead of "attack" if there is NO RS in English in Chinese that use "attack" wording? Matthew hk ( talk) 02:29, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
violent police raid". "misconduct in police arrest" is different in context as simply "attack". May be "civil conflict" is an alternative .
Mong Kok police station has become a focus for demonstrations in the past week after officers entered the nearby Prince Edward subway station on Sunday and forcefully arrested a number of people.. "forcefully arrested", still not "attack".
editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction.. And in fact, if you want, Alleged misconduct of Hong Kong police in arrestment on 31 August in Prince Edward station may have more chance to pass Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Expressions of doubt and #Contentious labels than "attack" based on RS. Matthew hk ( talk) 04:37, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Parts of central Paris were sealed off on Thursday after an employee at the city’s police headquarters stabbed and killed four colleagues before being shot dead.[30] , while "police attack " as a keyword, in Independent website, refer to
Police officer suspended after being filmed beating naked woman in Detroit hospital.
This category is for articles that describe by year : aggression, violence, mortal attacks on humans by other humans or animals.. It is DUE by the RS it had accused miscount in the arrest / police raid, but not "Attack" which in everywhere in wikipedia as simply as crime / unlawful / immoral behaviour. Matthew hk ( talk) 05:09, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Please base arguments on article title policy,as shown in the RM template? None of the RS i presented are really discussed. Or based on the citations, the locus is police and their action, and it is an arrest of suspect (some of the suspect did charged and waiting court trail. The law is a harsh terrible law. It was accused of becoming a political tool on protester, is another matter that out of this RM) and alleged abuse of law-enforcement power that use excessive force in mass arrestment (which in a separate news reporting, police can arrest people and release them due to not enough evidence, or yet another accusation of mass arrest of innocent people and just jail them in the police station for a while) or just alleged police miscount on non-suspect and innocent people. Without touching the DUE and UNDUE, the first RM really show "attack" is the best wording to substitute "arrest?" Matthew hk ( talk) 05:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
There has since been widespread speculation among many involved in the historic protest movement that somebody was killed in the chaos as police aggressively pursued protesters in the crowded station, swinging batons, tackling people to the ground and using pepper spray. Injured people were seen being taken out of the station on stretchers, fueling the rumors.[31]
CCTV footage shows footage of police beating protesters on a train at Prince Edward metro station in Kowloon district as they cowered on the floor.[33]
Dozens of people also rallied at malls belonging to rail link operator MTR Corp., which had aided police during a violent raid at the Prince Edward subway station on August 31. The company eventually shut down the Prince Edward station later Saturday after some protesters started gathering again.[34]
Hong Kong Protesters Gather at Site of Subway Station Attack, in main body
Joyce Cheung, a 40-year-old accountant, was among those who said that police should release CCTV footage from the Aug. 31 incident. Subway authorities “always allow the police to go into the MTR and attack citizens,” she said, referring to the name of the Hong Kong’s commuter railway operator.[35]
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 13:52, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2019 Prince Edward station attack article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is written in Hong Kong English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 1 November 2019. The result of the move review was procedural close. |
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 26 October 2019. The result of the move review was procedural close. |
The result of the move request was: No consensus. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre ( talk) 01:14, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
(Involved editor) Post close comment, User:香蕉糖 is a confirmed sock of Angelalive. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Angelalive. Matthew hk ( talk) 09:47, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
2019 Prince Edward station attack → ? – The current title , 2019 Prince Edward station attack is violating WP:NPOV. May be "31 August incident" is more NPOV but it seem a direct transliteration from Chinese, thus i doubt it is the common name in English. The context of the incident, is, there are civil conflict between black shirt protesters and armed (with axe) "anti-protesters" which "anti-protesters" use axe to attack and protester gave return blow. And then police arrived and accused by media that, they indiscriminate attack the citizen in the wrong train carriage as part of their arrest (thus WP:BLPCRIME applies, it should use "suspect", "accused " wording instead of firm wording), plus accusation of killing citizen in the process. The only more widely accepted fact would be those injured were sent to hospital a few hours after the incident. Thus, "attack" wording is not appropriate, "terrorist attack" even more not appropriate, but i am not sure what they are using in English media to describe the event. Matthew hk ( talk) 12:24, 7 October 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Sceptre ( talk) 18:04, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
A primary locus of this weekend’s demonstrations has been Prince Edward Station in Mong Kok, where riot officers charged into a waiting train car during mass protests on Aug. 31, beating four people with batons and dousing them in pepper spray.[1]
Aug. 31 - CCTV footage shows footage of police beating protesters on a train at Prince Edward metro station in Kowloon district as they cowered on the floor.[2], and CNN
At least 51 people were arrested in the streets and in the subway, police said on Sunday. Video footage from Prince Edward subway station in Kowloon showed officers chasing and hitting individuals with batons as they made the arrests. Arrestees have been accused of "participating in unauthorized assembly," "criminal damage," and other charges.[3] Matthew hk ( talk) 02:50, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
The ‘831’ Prince Edward MTR incident proves Hong Kong urgently needs Access to Information reform[4]. and their news reporting
Fire dept. says recording of Aug 31 MTR incident was within normal practice, condemns logbook leak[5] (bold by myself) Matthew hk ( talk) 02:55, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
Medics delayed by Hong Kong police officer in Prince Edward MTR incident: Fire service. Matthew hk ( talk) 06:06, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject.. Please brought url of newspaper articles to prove overwhelmingly they are using "attack" wording. Matthew hk ( talk) 18:35, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
a violent police clearance of a subway stationin the main body or
police raidin the headline. [8] Matthew hk ( talk) 18:29, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: There is no consensus to move this article, and it should remain at its present title for the timebeing.( non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 10:32, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
2019 Prince Edward station attack →
31 August Prince Edward station incident – Simple.
WP:NOTAFORUM,
WP:NOTAVOTE.
WP:BLPCRIME, and related
Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions#Arguments without arguments despite this is RM.
WP:Article title stated article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject.
And there is no RS (Opinion articles are not RS) stated "attack" wording. Thus the article title "2019 Prince Edward station attack" fails many of the criteria. See above
#Requested move 7 October 2019 section of such "discussion" and blatant voting by SPA as well as what are appeared in English language newspaper.
If you want Chinese source, they did not use "attack" wording either for most of the media except facebook propaganda by the protester and Apple Daily, which the former is not RS and the latter is criticized very often for their passionate wording, tabloid journalism and it was well known for getting low score in the opinion poll on creditability by CUHK (see [9]). Other survey by Reuters ranked Apple 13th. [10] Matthew hk ( talk) 02:28, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
So pick all the wording from the newspaper:
721及831事件for 2019 Yuen Long attack and "2019 Prince Edward station incident", ( [11]) which 事件 = incident in the headline. In the main body, 7-21 incident they used the wording "721元朗西鐵站白衣人襲擊事件" = "21 July Yuen Long West Rail Station, white-shirted men attacks" which is similar to the current article title in en-wiki. While the long title used for 8-31 incident, they used "
831太子港鐵站警方執法行動" = "31 August Prince Edward station police clearance/raid" (法 = law, 行動 = action, 執 = pick, so you can't have a direct transliteration)
831太子站事件
831 太子站事件
831事件[18].
8.31太子站衝突疑團[19] = "Questions/Rumour/Uncertainty in 31 August Prince Edward station conflict"
831事件[20]
8月31日警員到多個港鐵站進行搜捕,期間爆發混亂[21], while 混亂 = chaos and 搜捕 = arrest, but not other wording
8.31太子站事件[22]
8.31 太子站警方濫暴案= case of abusive arrests on 31 August Prince Edward station. 濫 may be translated to excessive or other similar context
港鐵太子站8月31日衝突= MTR Prince Edward station 31 August conflict.
The list would be too long thus skipping some smaller in scale online publish-only news website and Chinese-government owned, HK based newspaper. Matthew hk ( talk) 02:28, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
(edit 05:26, 27 October 2019 (UTC): add back the list of Eng news article from the first RM:
Douglas Tsang Tsz-ming, 30, one of the protesters at Prince Edward, said he was there over the August 31 incident, in which police chased demonstrators into the station and went after them on trains, resulting in injuries. Protesters have accused police of indiscriminately beating commuters, while the force said its officers were targeting those who had changed out of their trademark black outfits to blend in with passengers.
Aug 31 MTR incident...
On Tuesday, Civic Party lawmaker Alvin Yeung presented a logbook relating to an incident where baton-wielding police stormed Prince Edward MTR station, deploying pepper spray and making arrests.
Prince Edward MTR incident...
Riot police had stormed trains at Prince Edward MTR station in Mong Kok, making several arrests and deploying pepper spray after protesters rushed into the station on the night of Aug 31. The incident has been in the spotlight after rumours circulated online that three protesters died during the police operation - a claim the authorities have repeatedly denied.Matthew hk ( talk) 05:26, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Ping @ Paine Ellsworth: who reverted the bold move. How controversial it is for "incident" instead of "attack" if there is NO RS in English in Chinese that use "attack" wording? Matthew hk ( talk) 02:29, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
violent police raid". "misconduct in police arrest" is different in context as simply "attack". May be "civil conflict" is an alternative .
Mong Kok police station has become a focus for demonstrations in the past week after officers entered the nearby Prince Edward subway station on Sunday and forcefully arrested a number of people.. "forcefully arrested", still not "attack".
editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured. A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction.. And in fact, if you want, Alleged misconduct of Hong Kong police in arrestment on 31 August in Prince Edward station may have more chance to pass Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Expressions of doubt and #Contentious labels than "attack" based on RS. Matthew hk ( talk) 04:37, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Parts of central Paris were sealed off on Thursday after an employee at the city’s police headquarters stabbed and killed four colleagues before being shot dead.[30] , while "police attack " as a keyword, in Independent website, refer to
Police officer suspended after being filmed beating naked woman in Detroit hospital.
This category is for articles that describe by year : aggression, violence, mortal attacks on humans by other humans or animals.. It is DUE by the RS it had accused miscount in the arrest / police raid, but not "Attack" which in everywhere in wikipedia as simply as crime / unlawful / immoral behaviour. Matthew hk ( talk) 05:09, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Please base arguments on article title policy,as shown in the RM template? None of the RS i presented are really discussed. Or based on the citations, the locus is police and their action, and it is an arrest of suspect (some of the suspect did charged and waiting court trail. The law is a harsh terrible law. It was accused of becoming a political tool on protester, is another matter that out of this RM) and alleged abuse of law-enforcement power that use excessive force in mass arrestment (which in a separate news reporting, police can arrest people and release them due to not enough evidence, or yet another accusation of mass arrest of innocent people and just jail them in the police station for a while) or just alleged police miscount on non-suspect and innocent people. Without touching the DUE and UNDUE, the first RM really show "attack" is the best wording to substitute "arrest?" Matthew hk ( talk) 05:47, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
There has since been widespread speculation among many involved in the historic protest movement that somebody was killed in the chaos as police aggressively pursued protesters in the crowded station, swinging batons, tackling people to the ground and using pepper spray. Injured people were seen being taken out of the station on stretchers, fueling the rumors.[31]
CCTV footage shows footage of police beating protesters on a train at Prince Edward metro station in Kowloon district as they cowered on the floor.[33]
Dozens of people also rallied at malls belonging to rail link operator MTR Corp., which had aided police during a violent raid at the Prince Edward subway station on August 31. The company eventually shut down the Prince Edward station later Saturday after some protesters started gathering again.[34]
Hong Kong Protesters Gather at Site of Subway Station Attack, in main body
Joyce Cheung, a 40-year-old accountant, was among those who said that police should release CCTV footage from the Aug. 31 incident. Subway authorities “always allow the police to go into the MTR and attack citizens,” she said, referring to the name of the Hong Kong’s commuter railway operator.[35]
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 13:52, 2 February 2022 (UTC)